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Kali HP Boost: Good or Bad

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ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.28 08:54:00 - [31] You'll just get used to it. I can't remember if on my gankathron it took 20 secs to kill someone or 30
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.28 08:58:00 - [32] Originally by: ElCoCo You'll just get used to it. I can't remember if on my gankathron it took 20 secs to kill someone or 30 Yeah, this is what im saying... the changes wont be a problem for gallente. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:02:00 - [33] I don't see how running out of cap (either as an attacker, or a target) is a necessarily a bad thing. The point is to get the fight to last longer, both the attacker and the defender needs cap for a fight. And running out of cap will still have the same consequence as previously. If you run out of cap & cap-charges early in a fight, you will die easily. This applies to all parties. How is this NOT balanced? [ore mongers, recruiting]
dantes inferno Caldari Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:42:00 - [34] Quote: I don't see how running out of cap (either as an attacker, or a target) is a necessarily a bad thing. The point is to get the fight to last longer, both the attacker and the defender needs cap for a fight. And running out of cap will still have the same consequence as previously. If you run out of cap & cap-charges early in a fight, you will die easily. This applies to all parties. How is this NOT balanced? how? scenario 1: raven vs railathron 40 seconds into the fight mega runs out of cap no mods work. raven is still able to fire its weapons..balanced? scenario 2: apoc vs railathron 4o secons into the fight apoc runs out of cap..mega still at 40%...balanced? these are small deficiencies in todays game play which will be made oh so much more aparant with a increase in HP therefore a increase in time for fights to finnish. RAM is recruiting
wierchas noobhunter Caldari Praxiteles Inc. E N I G M A	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:52:00 - [35] bad ... join me be cool
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:54:00 - [36] See how fun you think pvp is when all your targets de-aggress and dock or jump.
Thor Xian State War Academy	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:58:00 - [37] Originally by: Pestillence See how fun you think pvp is when all your targets de-aggress and dock or jump. Most people call that a win. ~TX
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:03:00 - [38] Bah.. Same concern before RMR hp boost and noones complaining now.. And TBH if there really is a game breaking imbalance i'm sure the flames on the forums will get a hotfix or two after some actuall playing is done.. OR.. All you smart alliance guys could log on to SISI and help prebalance things now that the initial "OMG Kali is on SISI" rush is over.. CCP can only have so many paid testers ya know.. [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus"
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:16:00 - [39] Originally by: dantes inferno how? scenario 1: raven vs railathron 40 seconds into the fight mega runs out of cap no mods work. raven is still able to fire its weapons..balanced? Surely depends on how the ships are fitted, and a bunch of other factors (if both are prepared for the 1v1, or what happened previously, etc.). If the combatants are prepared for the fight, and close range, I would stack the odds for the winner about the same as I do today. Hypothetical scenarios and real in-game experience are two entirely different things. Quote: scenario 2: apoc vs railathron 4o secons into the fight apoc runs out of cap..mega still at 40%...balanced? these are small deficiencies in todays game play which will be made oh so much more aparant with a increase in HP therefore a increase in time for fights to finnish. It will perhaps change how I would fit my ship. Perhaps go with more NOS for lastability as the Apoc. I should imagine "generally" (since this is all hypothetical) an Apoc has a better tank, and if the mega is using all blasters in the highs. I would still factor the odds about the same in this fight as they are today. Meaning, close-range, I would put favour to a well-equipped megathron in close combat. Skills, and circumstances still play in. And what you deem as "unbalanced" I think may just be 'different'. But we still don't know the implications it will have on Tranq. there are a lot of differences applied ALONG with the hp change. All calculated and tested by devs. who we have entrusted our faith to before. Let's give it a shot before we start whining and complaining, shall we? [ore mongers, recruiting]
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:43:00 - [40] Edited by: Plutoinum on 28/10/2006 10:50:26 Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: ElCoCo You'll just get used to it. I can't remember if on my gankathron it took 20 secs to kill someone or 30 Yeah, this is what im saying... the changes wont be a problem for gallente. Yes, it's not only about cap, but also about dps. 10% less dps doesn't mean that you need 10% more time to kill a heavy tank, it can mean that you need twice (!) the time or that you can't even break a tank at all in the extreme.
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:44:00 - [41] Originally by: dantes inferno scenario 1: raven vs railathron 40 seconds into the fight mega runs out of cap no mods work. raven is still able to fire its weapons..balanced? scenario 2: apoc vs railathron 4o secons into the fight apoc runs out of cap..mega still at 40%...balanced?. So in the first scenario the mega runs out of cap in 40 seconds Where in the second scenario the same mega still has 40% cap left at the same 40secs? You know you should stop exaggerating to make your point. Also in comparison, tachyon beams don't drain that much more cap compared to 425 rails and the apoc has a much larger capacitor to start with. I've yet to see a sensible post wanting to buff this, nerf that, that also takes into account the races differences (i.e. no ammo for lasers, no cap for projectiles). So far almost everyone wants to do the same damage as his X races counterpart ship.
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:01:00 - [42] Edited by: Zoxia on 28/10/2006 11:04:01 I have a question. I have heard there will also be more damage too is this true?? that would seem to offset this HP boost abit. something about riggs. Also are they making it possible to add to resist more??
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:05:00 - [43] Originally by: Zoxia I have a question. I have heard there will also be more damage too is this true?? that would seem to offset this HP boost abit. The existing ships/modules haven't changed. Only thing in kali that will increase damage is the addition of rigs and combat boosters.
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:09:00 - [44] Originally by: ElCoCo Originally by: Zoxia I have a question. I have heard there will also be more damage too is this true?? that would seem to offset this HP boost abit. The existing ships/modules haven't changed. Only thing in kali that will increase damage is the addition of rigs and combat boosters. so once these boosters rigs are in play the HP boost will be less of a factor.
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:11:00 - [45] Originally by: Zoxia Originally by: ElCoCo Originally by: Zoxia I have a question. I have heard there will also be more damage too is this true?? that would seem to offset this HP boost abit. The existing ships/modules haven't changed. Only thing in kali that will increase damage is the addition of rigs and combat boosters. so once these boosters rigs are in play the HP boost will be less of a factor. It will depend on their price, ease of use etc Noone would put expensive stuff on t1 stock ships so we'll see.
dantes inferno Caldari Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:24:00 - [46] Edited by: dantes inferno on 28/10/2006 11:25:30 Quote: So in the first scenario the mega runs out of cap in 40 seconds Where in the second scenario the same mega still has 40% cap left at the same 40secs? Raven does more dmg than the apoc hence needs to use the LAR more which affects the mega cap :D also in my hypothetical scenario raven has NOS, Apoc dont :D Quote: The existing ships/modules haven't changed. Only thing in kali that will increase damage is the addition of rigs and combat boosters. yes the ships have changed..a considerable increase in hp is quite a change dont you think? RAM is recruiting
Misses Gap	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:25:00 - [47] Edited by: Misses Gap on 28/10/2006 11:26:44 A couple of thoughts: o) Station warfare: The undock/redock timer needs to be increased substantially as soon as HPs are boosted or you will just see people undock, tank a bit, redock, rinse repeat. We already see the boring routine of that many times a day, but this time not even one ship will pop. o) Near gate warfare Bait(le) ships tanked to hell sitting on a gate will be very common, to effectively remove them before they are able to jump out will be moving from near to absolute impossible. Subsequently PvP oriented players will be Blobbing yet even more which can topple the Eve experience quite a bit. Especially with the servers still not being able to handle fleets that go over 60 ships. o) Projectile and low DPs weapons These will be a very rare breed to be used out there anymore. Devs, prepare to hear shouts of terror and despair from Minmatar players. There will be hardly any for ships that cannot shell out absurd amounts of damage so anything sub-battleship will be degraded to tackling at best. Possible Fixes: - Increase redock timer - Allow low DPs weapons (and maybe those exclusively) to target, harm and maybe cripple vital enemy shipsystems. - Change aggression timers and find a way to delay jumps to balance bait ship techniques ? - In case it didnt sink in - Make it so that while high shields, armor, hull, etc keep ships from actually popping that the enemy can target warp engines, shield boosters, armor reppers, cap injectors, and so on directly. Maybe even disable the jump gate communication system on a target to prevent it from gate jumping out.
dantes inferno Caldari Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:26:00 - [48] and ofc the agression timer needs a 50% increase to keep it balanced. RAM is recruiting
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:41:00 - [49] Originally by: Misses Gap [...] Subsequently PvP oriented players will be Blobbing yet even more which can topple the Eve experience quite a bit. Especially with the servers still not being able to handle fleets that go over 60 ships. Again, how will this happen? With the same people still playing the game. Will everyone in todays gangs somehow multiply like cells? It's all dependent on what people are in the game, in the corp., in the gang. Alliances will still blob, since fleets is how alliances generally combat eachother. Pirates will still be in small gangs, they will not somehow magically have ALOT more people in their gangs. This idea of people suddenly flying in blobs is senseless in my eyes. People who blobbed before, will still blob. It's a part of the game. You don't like it? Fine. But if you can't live with it... then that's your decision. Camping specific people at stations imho, is pretty silly in general. I'm glad if that changes so it won't be as easy. If you stillwant to gank them, then you can place a mwd battleship behind the docking-ramp, and bump the target out of docking-range. then web it. If they don't want to fight you, they still can undock, and redock. They don't have to open fire. And you don't have to sit there. Oh, all weapons don't magically become unbalanced, because the hitpoints of the ships are doubled. [ore mongers, recruiting]
Misses Gap	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:10:00 - [50] Edited by: Misses Gap on 28/10/2006 12:15:50 Tobias, I am sorry to say you are wrong. Yes, the total amount of people in combat may stay the same. But - blobbage will simply occur at 99% of the time instead of 75 %. I know it is hard to imagine but some others than you actually rove around in small gangs of 3-5 people, then sometimes blob and occasionally go solo. That is, the very same people - say - in my corp. This will not happen much anymore as the DPs cant match the HP boost that well. It'll be the Blob or nothing at worst. Also, with more hitpoints people can undock, take one two pot shots and then wait out the aggression timer far more easily That is, if the agression timer will stay the same of course ;) Fix to the HP and BloB thing above - give small cailber guns/lasers/missiles a chance to target and disable vital systems and modules on enemy ships. It's sexy and you know you want it. grins Gap
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:17:00 - [51] until they see they complete effects of the riggs and boosters you cant really say squat. SO i would hold off saying anything until that happens. trying to milk the devs for other options before those that are being introduced have been fully tested and exploited is jumping to conclusions at best and pushing your own agenda at worst.
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:23:00 - [52] Originally by: Misses Gap Tobias, I am sorry to say you are wrong. I am sure, you're convinced otherwise. But before we see everything implemented, we simply do not know. Right now, I just take the above statement as arrogance. [ore mongers, recruiting]
Misses Gap Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:31:00 - [53] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Misses Gap Tobias, I am sorry to say you are wrong. I am sure, you're convinced otherwise. But before we see everything implemented, we simply do not know. Right now, I just take the above statement as arrogance. 'tis fine if you want to call it arrogance, Tobias hun. :D However nothing in Eve is ever finished, waiting things out without discussing its implications before they hit the stone and stay there occassionally hurt quite a bit. Sit back and wait until this happens and you may be getting a surprise that has no return tag. After all, this is a would be discussion to probe the changes. hugs, Gap
Amerame Section XIII	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:35:00 - [54] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Misses Gap Tobias, I am sorry to say you are wrong. I am sure, you're convinced otherwise. But before we see everything implemented, we simply do not know. Right now, I just take the above statement as arrogance. Players will adapt to the game mechanisms, might not be overnight, but if you need more people to be efficient in a pvp gang(k) then corps / alliances will use bigger gangs.
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:36:00 - [55] Originally by: Misses Gap [...] waiting things out without discussing its implications before they hit the stone and stay there occassionally hurt quite a bit. I suggest you try it out before you discuss it. Things are so different between hypothesis and actual experience. People always tend to whine when changes happen. I think it's more a general fear of change that hits people. If you want to change something, there's always some people who will whine about it. If we go five months ahead of time, and, devs decide to nerf HP back to how it is now. Someone will argue, very eloquently how "everything is balanced", and "CCP doesn't know what they're doing!!11" followed by "The sky is falling!". I myself trust the Tux, until proven wrong, through hard gameplay. And quit pretending to be a woman, There are none in this game. ;) [ore mongers, recruiting]
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:37:00 - [56] Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 28/10/2006 12:38:21 blah comments discarded.. [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus"
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:37:00 - [57] Lets see.... CCP says 'blobs are not cool' then CCP says 'more hitpoints longer fights' DO I need thicker glasses? I cant find the logic -------------------- Tuxford you broke my beloved EVE
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:40:00 - [58] Originally by: Amerame Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Misses Gap Tobias, I am sorry to say you are wrong. I am sure, you're convinced otherwise. But before we see everything implemented, we simply do not know. Right now, I just take the above statement as arrogance. Players will adapt to the game mechanisms, might not be overnight, but if you need more people to be efficient in a pvp gang(k) then corps / alliances will use bigger gangs. This is as true now, as it's ever been. WHEN has blobs, in the history of EVE, NOT been effective? When in the past has 20 battleships versus 5 battleships been an even match? It still comes down to fittings, tactics, and how you operate. Yeah, it's a change, but saying everyone will just "start blobbing, or fail at EVE", is just a huge hyperbole. [ore mongers, recruiting]
Amerame Section XIII	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:42:00 - [59] Originally by: Godar Marak Lets see.... CCP says 'blobs are not cool' then CCP says 'more hitpoints longer fights' DO I need thicker glasses? I cant find the logic I'm even more concerned about the capital ship HP boost, on the paper it might look cool, but when you'll absolutely NEED a 250 people fleet to defend a PoS guess what ? all that will be left in eve are alliances that can get 250 people in a gang to defend their PoS, therefore battles will involve 500+ people all the time, which again might be good in theory but I fear that the server are nowhere near able to deal with this kind of battles.
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:47:00 - [60] Only slight worry I have is more people able to play the 'de-aggress Jump/Dock game'. I reserve my final judgment after I tried upping my damage output by more then the HP boost in my new Hurricane

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