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foolers
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Posted - 2006.10.28 04:13:00 -
[1]
The myrmidon does not get any bonus to any class of turrets.
Most Amarr ships do not get direct bonuses to turrets.
Do rigs open up cross-racial weapons as a very real option?
EX:
Projectiles normally use less fitting than lasers, but are less usefull on ships that lack a ship-bonus.
Amarr ships usually have a surplus of fitting, when not fitting lasers.
Thus, the +grid drawback on projectile rigs are completely acceptable.
This would allow say, an apoc to actually fit a full rack of arties, and arty rigs and still comfortably fit them. While a tempest would have a problem doing both due to fitting constraints.
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foolers
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Posted - 2006.10.28 04:26:00 -
[2]
Probably not the best forum to put this in, sorry.
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Aeaus
Tabula Rasa Systems
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.10.28 04:36:00 -
[3]
Whereas other races will be improving their own racial characteristics and getting a bonus for it. Rigs will also be quite expensive, so it's not like you can slap on a few rigs to fix your ships problems, which isn't an arguement at all since other ships can use rigs to improve their strengths.
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.10.28 05:31:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Aeaus
....
lol at your banner... I just watched that ep!
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.10.28 06:40:00 -
[5]
actually arty have same fitting as megabeam and beams do around 30+% more dps than 1400 with similar optimal and better tracking
for arty i don't see this as a real issue as in fleet passive tanking is generally the way to go so most of the cap can be used for weapons
the "res problem" of lasers can be partially resolved by new shield tankers, while i think explosion will become less usefull for the same reason.
consider also that yes, with rigs you can improve your dps, but so will do other ships in their optimal config...
then personally i think 425mm are more suited than arties... they have better dps, range, tracking and probably better damage type too...
i will be not very surprised to see maelstorm pilot opt for 425mm instead of usual 1400mm
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.10.28 08:36:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Goumindong on 28/10/2006 08:42:59
Its more of an issue for Autocannons.
Something I typed up, but decided not to post. This seems like as good a place as ever to post it and maybe get a big rig thread to deal with rig issues.
...
I am sitting here, looking at how rigs might work and wondering exactly how they are going to go in.
Questions:
1. Do rigs stack, and how do they stack? Do the penalties stack? Do the bonuses stack? How do they stack with ship bonuses?
2. Can you fit more than one rig for each bonus type[I.E. two gun mods]
3. How does calibration limit the amount of rigs on a ship.
The reasons for these questions are below, and using the following assumptions
1. Rig bonuses do not stack, they all increase over the base amount. Rig Penalties stack perfectly in the typical manner
2. You may fit more than one of the same type of rig on a ship.
3. Calibration doesnt really limit the rigs on a ship[no clue how it works really]
Why? Well, because of the issue of gun strengh and powergrid.
The lower the powergrid of a gun, the easier it is to fit, this seems natural.
But, the lower the powergrid of a gun, the easier it is to fit with a rig.
Examine for instance a focused medium pulse laser. This laser requires 150 powergrid to fit and has a damage/rof of .416 x crystal damage. Compare this to a Heavy Pulse Laser that has a damage/rof of .5 x crystal damage and uses 250 powergrid.
However with three rigs[all t1 damage] , the Focused Medium Pulse will have a powergrid of 200 and a damage/rof of .533 x crystal damage. With two T1 ROF/1 t1 damage this becomes .572 x crystal damage.
Ok, you say, but in order to get that increase for the powergrid you need to fit three rigs, where the heavy pulse user can use other rigs like a PG boost and then a ROF/Damage boost to to be even more effective, or a HP boost to keep him alive longer.
Valid points, until you start to examine what happens you you cross weapon platforms and find widly dispariate powergrid numbers.
For instance a 425 autocannon can fit three rigs and still be under the powergrid of a Heavy Pulse Laser.
Those 3 t1 rigs would increase the 425 autocannons total damage by 37.5% for a damage ratio of .705 x ammo damage versus .5714 x crystal damage for the Heavy Pulse.
This wouldnt be such an issue if ships had unlimited powergrid, but they dont, obviously. So the 425 autocannon with rigs does 23% more damage with comparable ammo than a heavy pulse laser on a ship without bonuses.
What happens with smaller blasters?
Undersized weapons benefit even more from these rigs.
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Weapon rigs are more beneficial on weapons that have a low powergrid than weapons that have a large powergrid. Low PG guns can be made better than high PG guns without going over the high PG gun PG use.
Especialy with [big] Autocannons and Electron/Ion blasters doing so much damage and having so little comparative powergrid usage, they benefit disproportionalty from the changes.
edit: E.G. On a ship without bonus damage, heavy ion blasters do about 50% more DPS than a heavy pulse laser when using damage rigs. You also save 10 PG per turret and the cap use of fully reduced lasers.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.28 08:56:00 -
[7]
As things stand right now:
Calibration is the rig equivalent of PG or CPU. Cant use more calibration than you ship has.
You can have more than 1 rig affecting the same thing.
Rigs are stack-penalized to one another but are in a separate stack from modules.
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Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 09:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ath Amon
actually arty have same fitting as megabeam and beams do around 30+% more dps than 1400 with similar optimal and better tracking
interesting theory. unfortunately the graphs tux posted here seem to disagree.
Originally by: Ath Amon
the "res problem" of lasers can be partially resolved by new shield tankers, while i think explosion will become less usefull for the same reason.
what new shieldtankers?
we get 8 new ships:
amarr: 2x armor
gallente: 2x armor
caldari: 2x shield
minmatar 1x shield, 1x armor
looks pretty much lke the shield/armor tanker distribution we already have right now so there will be o change there.
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Marissana Terek
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:16:00 -
[9]
You could ask the same thing about damage mods...
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.28 11:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
interesting theory. unfortunately the graphs tux posted here seem to disagree.
While Ath's usual comments are typically quite flawed I fear he is correct here.
Tux graph is for ships with the first shipbonus. When you use them on a non-minnie ship they loose this bonus and do only about 72% of the megabeam dps.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 11:31:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 28/10/2006 11:34:19
Originally by: Aramendel
Tux graph is for ships with the first shipbonus. When you use them on a non-minnie ship they loose this bonus and do only about 72% of the megabeam dps.
yes but tux graph also includes the amarr 1st bonus of -10% laser cap use which gives no damage benefit at all. sure if you fit a 1400 on an apoc the damage will be a lot less but in the same way fitting a megabeam on a tempest (or abaddon unfortunately) will use an evil amount of cap for no reduce in damage at all.
supposedly lasers have a built-in damagebonus to make up for the capuse bonus. so amarrian ships have a hidden damage bonus per default just like minmatar ships have the not so hidden rof bonus.
thats also one of the reason i dont like the capuse bonus at all. it makes it a requirement on our tanking ships (punisher, maller, proph, apoc) which thereby get a hidden damagebonus instead of a bonus that would be more useful for tanking.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.10.28 17:29:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
interesting theory. unfortunately the graphs tux posted here seem to disagree.
While Ath's usual comments are typically quite flawed I fear he is correct here.
Tux graph is for ships with the first shipbonus. When you use them on a non-minnie ship they loose this bonus and do only about 72% of the megabeam dps.
ehy what flawed? 
also yes, most amarr ships have the -10% to cap usage, but we are speaking mostly of long range/fleets so the cap can be mostly used for weapons and not to run 2 lars... as said 425mm are imo way more benefical for amarr ships in these situations, but is just my taste.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Ath Amon
the "res problem" of lasers can be partially resolved by new shield tankers, while i think explosion will become less usefull for the same reason.
what new shieldtankers?
we get 8 new ships:
amarr: 2x armor
gallente: 2x armor
caldari: 2x shield
minmatar 1x shield, 1x armor
looks pretty much lke the shield/armor tanker distribution we already have right now so there will be no change there.
the shield tanker i'm referring to are the Rokh and Mael... now the usual fleet is mostly composed by
megas (armor tank), tempest (armor tank), some apoc (armor tank)
as you see amarr damage in this situation is quite crap (one of the big problems of lasers atm)
with the introduction of new ships we probably will have...
Rokh (shield tank), Rokh (shield tank) and Rokh (shield tank)
okok just joking (but not by much )
maaany Rokhs (shield tank), some abaddon (armor tank), mael or tempest (shield or armor tank)
in a situation like this the laser damage will become more viable than now while explo will become a bit crappy...
also with the rokh in its current status i will not be surprised to see shield res of over 70% for all res... but still, even with such high res, the ew should be not anymore the "bad damage type"
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 17:49:00 -
[13]
ships/weapons should not be ballanced only in regard to fleetbattles. in fact fleetbattles should not even be the top consideration. obviously i dont have detailed statistics to prove this but my guess would be that there are a few other forms of pvp out there besides long range sniper battles and that those outnumber sniper fleet battles. in fact i've never been in any sniper-fleet so far but i've seen my fair share of pvp.
just because there may be more "shieldtanked battleships used for sniper fleet battles" now the total ratio of available shieldtanks/armortanks doesnt change. to claim that lasers will have no more problems with their crappy damagetype just because the situation will improve in one specific pvp scenario is rather stupid. the fact that the crappy abaddon will be able to do good damage against a rokh in sniping fleets will not help a geddon doing some small gang pvp or the maller flying beside it.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.10.28 18:24:00 -
[14]
wait wait
i agree with you that fleet pvp is not all the pvp in the game (even if is a important one)
my "analysis" is only about fleet mostly because the OP was speaking about long range weapons and the main application of long range fitting is actually fleet battles.
also we have to consider that 3 out of 4 new BS are supposed to be fleet boats so i think that, speaking abouth them the fleet role should be taken in great account.
said that i agree with you that the Rokh or the mael will not resolve all laser problems, for close range probably armor tankers will still be more dominant even if with close range the discussion is a bit different as ships are better tanked and generally have all round good res.
so my comment was only about fleet situation and tought it was clear about that, if not then my fault... and is obvious that all that is out of this particular scenario is a different story.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.10.28 18:49:00 -
[15]
The Rohk and the Mael wont fix all the shield/armor issues, but the way that rigs are set up might.
The shield rigs have a pitiful penalty compared to the armor rigs.
Armor=10% velocity
Shield=10% sig radius.
Is there anyone who at the BC/Above level[where it really starts to matter what they are tanking with, because it probably isnt done with sig/speed] really cares if they have a 33% larger signature radius?
And in exhcange they get to fill their EM resistance hole [25% no stack penalty] and put up even stronger shield boosters that use less cap, or boost their total HP again.
Armor tankers cant do anything similar without reducing speed to 72% or so of total[10% per rig]. Which is a much larger penalty compared to 10% larger signature radius. Especialy if you are a close range ship and are using an MWD to get there, you are already the size of a titan in that regard, doesnt matter how much bigger you get.
So you will see more shield tankers as the rigs make it easier to do so on less slots/make shield tankers stronger, while armor tankers will probably[not nessesarily, but probably] hedge their rigs somewhere else.
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