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Minmatar different damage types

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Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:17:00 - [1] I dont really see the advantage of having mixed damage types for minmatar. So help me out here, surely im missing something. To clarify what I mean.... what I would like is instead of doing for example 12 kinetic & 6 explosive damage for 18 damage, I would prefer 18 kinetic damage just like with caldari missiles. Since there are 4 damage types in Eve, there would only be 4 ammo types though, with different range penalties. But it seems to me that some ammo, like Fusion and Phased Plasma, are used in a far greater extent than the others anyway, because players want as much Thermal damage as possible, or as much explosive damage as possible. Im sure this is a crappy idea, but... I kind of like it. Help me not to. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Olixia Castitatis Gallente Svefn-G-Englar	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:22:00 - [2] Edited by: Olixia Castitatis on 28/10/2006 11:22:16 It seems to me that, with anything larger than a frigate, a ships base resists are going to be balanced anway - most half-tanked BS will have all their resists between the 60-80% mark, with all their resists being no more than plus or minus 5% different from each other. Thus, the actual damage type doesn't seem to matter much, and so minmatar pilots just use whatever is the highest damage/longest range Well, 'cept for EMP ammo, for some reason. I don't really get that. ----------------------- <Sig goes here>
Forsch Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:26:00 - [3] I like the concept of mixed damage types. Makes you think more about which one to choose for a certain encounter. And I think this is one of the flavors of Minmatar. Forsch Defender of the empire
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:31:00 - [4] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 28/10/2006 11:32:09 I actually would prefer more uniform individual ammos as well. Since we have 8 ammo types and 4 damage types, we could have 2 ammos for each damage type, one long range and one short range version. I would definitely prefer a 40 point thermal PP over the current mix. I don't really see that happening though, and due to the nature of projectiles I guess it makes sense to have at least a portion of kinetic in every ammo. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Mjala	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:46:00 - [5] now tell me plz what dmg typ you want for wich range ?? whaaaaa, i cant believe that someone comes with this idea, just impossible.
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.28 13:09:00 - [6] Bah, I'm happy with ammos having 25% KIN, 75% other like plasma and fusion. Triple Damage type ammos like EMP bother me, especially when you do both EXP and EM! And then, ability to choose damage types vanishes with T2 ammo, making us lose a sensible portion of so called versatility. ___________________________________________ Originally by: Stamm Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.28 13:49:00 - [7] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 28/10/2006 13:52:08 Originally by: Mjala now tell me plz what dmg typ you want for wich range ?? whaaaaa, i cant believe that someone comes with this idea, just impossible. Easy enough. Using the current damage numbers: Fusion: 50% range, 44 Exp damage Phased Plasma: 62.5% range, 40 Therm damage EMP: 75% range, 40 EM damage Titanium Sabot: 87.5% range, 36 Kin damage Depleted Uranium: 100% range, 32 Therm Damage Proton: 120% range, 28 EM Damage Nuclear: 140% range, 28 Exp damage Carbonized Lead: 160% range, 24 Kin Damage This is trying to balance both the existing damage effects (e.g. Proton doing EM hence the 120% one is EM) and the minnies primary being Exp damage (hence top damage ammo does Exp, not EM, and 100% one isnt exp so they get a decent long range exp as well) Maybe for the projectile natures sake, make roughly 10-15% of each non-kin damage kinetic, and the same portion of the kinetics explosive. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.28 13:53:00 - [8] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 28/10/2006 13:53:22 the so called advantage of minnis to choose damagetypes is more smoke and mirrors then anything else for artillery you have no choice what to take, you use and choose the ammo according to range not dmg type for close range you cant carry around 6 different ammos to choose from as our ammo consume is insanely high, so you are already restricted in space also in most cases you have to know in advance what ammo to use, as reloading during battle takes 10 sec, you cant play around with your ammo because you gonna end dead in reality you got like 2-4 ammos with you barrage, (hail for some ships), phased plasma, fusion now 3 of those 4 do exp/kin only and as mentioned when using t2 ammo you cant even pretend to have a choice Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Tyler Lowe Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.28 16:05:00 - [9] Edited by: Tyler Lowe on 28/10/2006 16:06:02 Falloff is the saving grace when it comes to damage type selection. It sure would be nice if we had a skill to train to increase accuracy within falloff. I think if that were the case, you'd see alot less complaining about damage type selection dictating range, and damage output in general. As far as being able to deal up to 3 damage types at once, it's a tradeoff. It makes PVE tougher, but it makes tanking your damage in PvP tougher. EMP cuts through shields pretty fast, and then does a fair job on the armor underneath. It's funny to see the Amarr complaints about EAMN's while some of those folks point at our damage type versatility, because a major portion of the Matari ability to deal damage was in spreading out what needed to be tanked. When EM res on armor went from 60% on most ships to 80%+, EMP (which is our best tech I ammo for raw DPS) took a pretty hard hit too. Not to say that it hasn't hit everyone, but I do think that the fact Omni tanks do so well at mitigating a spread out damage selection hits us much harder than is generally acknowledged. J.A.F.O.
Max Hardcase Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.28 18:17:00 - [10] I'd love to see Proton get atleast a 50/50 spread of kin/em. At the moment EM is the minor damage component
Mortuus Minmatar Oblivion's Gate	Posted - 2006.10.28 18:35:00 - [11] Personally, I like my ammo mixes the way they are. EMP can eat through shields and armor and Caldari t2, Phased Plasma for t2 Amarr ships, Barrage for some ceptors and for Minmatar t2, Fusion/Hail/Quake for Gallente t2. Then again, I don't snipe, my arty ships tend to fight within 40km of their targets. I'd prefer not having to spend 10 seconds changing damage type just because I got through the shield. ex-Occassus Republica <3
Isyel Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.28 18:53:00 - [12] Only thing regarding damage types is a myth that should be dispelled. Long range artillery being able to change damage type. Even if T2 wasn't a must it's not really viable, but since for really long range T2 IS a must, weeeelll. I can't stand seeing "You can choose damage type" as an argument. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I be needin' some sig love. sigh
Susa Ou	Posted - 2006.10.29 06:09:00 - [13] Mixed damage types make the Minmatar what they are. If it is single damage types you want, missles and hybrid do just fine. Amarr have 2 damage types in different degrees, and the minmatar have up to three in a single round. Please stop trying to make everyone the same. . .
Woopie	Posted - 2006.10.29 15:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Olixia Castitatis Edited by: Olixia Castitatis on 28/10/2006 11:22:16 It seems to me that, with anything larger than a frigate, a ships base resists are going to be balanced anway - most half-tanked BS will have all their resists between the 60-80% mark, with all their resists being no more than plus or minus 5% different from each other. Thus, the actual damage type doesn't seem to matter much, and so minmatar pilots just use whatever is the highest damage/longest range Well, 'cept for EMP ammo, for some reason. I don't really get that. -/+5% difference between resist is exactly why it's such a huge deal. For example if we take some random -/+5% resist say: 81/79/86/76 If we have ship A that is forced to shoot at the 86% resisted type, and then we have ship B can select to focus it's damage type on 76%. Given that ships A and B do same damage then ship B does (1-.76)/(1-.86)=1.7142... => 71.4% more damage than ship A. Just to put that in prespective ship B can be doing only 300dps and ship A wooping 500dps, and ship B still does more damage than ship A after resists.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.29 16:16:00 - [15] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 29/10/2006 16:19:11 I can buy the entire "its a minmatar thing, leave it be". But if the ammo would be 100% one damage type, the effective damage would go up if you pick the correct damage type. Lets say someone has 50% EMP resists, and 60% explosive resists. You use EMP ammo with 10 EMP + 10 explosive damage. Then you would hit for 5 emp damage, 4 explosive damage. On the other hand, if the ammo was 20 emp damage, you would hit for 10 damage instead of 9, a 11% boost in damage. And that is why missiles are so powerful if they use the correct damage type. Anyway, just wanted to show that split damage type matters. Im semi-fine with turret ammo being this way (every turret ammo has 2 or 3 damage types). Gallente have kinetic/thermal, amarr has em/thermal, minmatar have x/y. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Woopie -/+5% difference between resist is exactly why it's such a huge deal. For example if we take some random -/+5% resist say: 81/79/86/76 If we have ship A that is forced to shoot at the 86% resisted type, and then we have ship B can select to focus it's damage type on 76%. Given that ships A and B do same damage then ship B does (1-.76)/(1-.86)=1.7142... => 71.4% more damage than ship A. Just to put that in prespective ship B can be doing only 300dps and ship A wooping 500dps, and ship B still does more damage than ship A after resists. i agree that it can be a significant amount of damage but there are some things to consider.... first the damage you deal is not focused on a single damage type but is always a mix of damages. second the damage you chose influence both damage and range. here an example with your number and just t1 ammos... emp is the highest damage with a total of 44 (100% damage), we want to do thermal damage (the 76 res in your example) so we have 32 therm and 8 kin (let's say 86 in your example) we have something like 73% therm damage and 18% kin damage. on top of that proj (ACs in this case) have a base dps around 30% lower than other turrets so by your example, adding these factors and hoping numbers are right for a minnie ship the difference should be... ((1-.76).73.7 + (1-.86).18.7)/(1-.86) 12.26+1.76/14 = 1.001 and consider that this is one of the best situations for proj, with a good damage ammo wich have one of the lowest kin component... compared to a weapon hitting for the worst resisted res (actually almost impossible as turrets have mixed damage and missiles can switch damage) the result is a bit ehm "depressing" for longer range weapons all this discussion doesn't apply at all... t2 ammos are simply too superior to t1 and proj can't chose damage for t2 ammos...
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:21:00 - [17] Im not much of a pvp'er so can only speek for my pve point of view.... And i would really like to see a better EM ammo. I dont use EMP at all in L4 missions, cause of its range penalty. The range penalty affect my hits on my targets, because of transversile velocity.....so bad ammo even if its correct dam type vs the ratts. I have to use phased plasme which is often second best damage type against the ratts.... For AC's i guess the emp is great....but dont really see it is ammo for arties at all....atleast not for 1400 guns. Anyway....i can understand the pvpers wanting to have a mixed ammo, so their targets dont know what to expect.... But for us pve'rs it kind of ruin our game as we got so poor dps...it is really hard to take out some of the bigger BS in L4 missions.... As minnies are supose to be all about versality...we should be able to pick better ammo damage types for the task to be done.... I dont really mind having the lowest dps...as long as we got versality ammo wise.... Sorry about poor spellings.......english not my native lang... :)
Woopie	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:38:00 - [18] Originally by: Ath Amon .. snip .. Read the orginal quote. He was claiming that focused damage type did not matter cause resist were already so 'close'. Granted minmatar can always choose something better than to focus the worst damage type, but not the point I was making.
Isyel Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:38:00 - [19] I say give us T2 ammo "the caldari way" if you people really want to get sold on "choose damage type" as they (CCP) are trying to. That is, give us some sort of T2 Phased Plasma, T2 EMP, you know, so we REALLY can choose damage. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I be needin' some sig love. sigh
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:39:00 - [20] I want to be able to make custom ammo. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Tasty Burger I want to be able to make custom ammo. Sweet jesus QFT!!! _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
O'olish Amaneh	Posted - 2006.10.29 20:39:00 - [22] Leave my ammmo alone. /me hugs his em and phased plasma.
OrangeAfroMan Minmatar Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.10.29 20:42:00 - [23] Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Tasty Burger I want to be able to make custom ammo. Sweet jesus QFT!!! Um... YES! o_O that would be so insanely cool, and it does make sense that Minmatar should be able to custom make their ammo, they build their ships pretty much custom and on their own.

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