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CCP Please Eliminate SPACE DRAG

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Glumpumpkin House Elf Liberation Front	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:13:00 - [1] In space, there is no drag. As such, ships should continually accelerate all the way to .999 C (speed of light), but at those speeds your skill training should slow down relative to being in motion at 0m/s, in keeping with the theory of relativity. This way players taking advantage of supreme speed to evade capture will have to consider the consequences of their actions and weigh them against being caught up to. Orbiting wouldn't be changed at all because to orbit another player you would have to continually change your direction of motion relative to the ship you're orbiting, but ships having a maximum speed is a ridiculous notion.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:14:00 - [2] lol ---------- IBTL \o/
John MacCoy Amarr Arcana Imperii Ltd.	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:17:00 - [3] Someone give this boy a physics book and make him read it please.
Benco97 Gallente Fedo Appreciation Group	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:26:00 - [4] The entire eve universe is in a gas cloud, Tada, fixed. Head of the Fedo Appreciation Group (FAG) and Registered Fedo breeder (Sig kindly supplied by Zurtur)
Glumpumpkin House Elf Liberation Front	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:27:00 - [5] Originally by: John MacCoy Someone give this boy a physics book and make him read it please. Explain where my understanding of physics fails, please.
Shionoya Risa Caldari The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:28:00 - [6] So, if there is no drag in ya space, what happens when you hit a little meteorite? Does it bounce off and then go zooming off at light speed? And, imo, ships wouldn't continue accelerating to light speed unless they had the thrust to actually do that.
Glumpumpkin House Elf Liberation Front	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:32:00 - [7] Originally by: Shionoya Risa So, if there is no drag in ya space, what happens when you hit a little meteorite? Does it bounce off and then go zooming off at light speed? And, imo, ships wouldn't continue accelerating to light speed unless they had the thrust to actually do that. Acceleration is simply the rate at which your ship's velocity changes without regard to how high your velocity is, until you get very close to the speed of light. Therefore if your ship accelerates at 4km/s, every second your total velocity will increase by 4km/s. That's my understanding at least. I've never seen meteorites outside of asteroid belts. I imagine the carebears already harvested them all
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:37:00 - [8] The point is at frational luminal speeds, a fleck of paint would obliterate your ship. Although frankly I like this idea - firing luminal speed dust clouds at POSs from across the system, and 6 hours later KABOOM! --- Encrypted Client Side Bookmarks! Raise YOUR voice to CCP. Let's end slow copy times and bookmark lag for good!
GouldFish Unscoped Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:46:00 - [9] This is not a game based on newtonian physics, is a game based on the idea we are under water. Please learn to live with it like every one else has for the last 3+ years. the amount of extra processing this would require and the amount of extra data that would need to be sent would mean more of the dreaded "LAG monster".
Hermia HIVE	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:48:00 - [10] thing is, the faster you go your MASS increases. Meaning that you'll need ever greater thrust to produce the same acceleration. Infinite mass happens at the speed of light, therfore its impossible to accelerate something to lightspeed, you would need infinite energy. I dont do relativity but my mate does, tbh its just rediculous , i dont understand it, i can just regurgitate some facts.

Tehyarec Silverleaf Foundation	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:50:00 - [11] Edited by: Tehyarec on 02/11/2006 12:50:52 Originally by: Glumpumpkin Acceleration is simply the rate at which your ship's velocity changes without regard to how high your velocity is, until you get very close to the speed of light. Therefore if your ship accelerates at 4km/s, every second your total velocity will increase by 4km/s. That's my understanding at least. Well, I'm quite far from proficient in physics, but... as far as I know, thrust power comes into it as well. The faster you go, the more thrusting power you need. Kinda like if you drive a car or fly a plane. Sure you can accelerate for a certain time, but then comes a point when the engine just can't create enough "power" to make it go faster. It would be the same thing in space too. Why do you think we currently can't do manned flights farther out than the moon? It's because we don't have engines that could generate enough thrust for a long enough time to achieve such a speed that the trip would happen in a feasible amount of time (fuel is also an issue, but not the biggest one, since once you'd have a high enough speed, you could cut the engines). What comes to particles obliterating ships at that speeds... normally true, but that's what shield systems would be for I suppose. I don't know enough about physics to say whether or not such an energy barrier would stop small particles and matter that you could run into in space. I would love it if you could fly in EVE Independence War-style, but that'd absolutely murder the servers from what I understand. So realistic physics isn't something we can expect to have in a space MMORPG of EVE's scale for a long, long time
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:54:00 - [12] Let's not forget that at high velocities the flow of time is noticeably slower. You may well be able to zoom around at close to c, but an hour or two later when you get to where you're going, everyone there will be an old fogey. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Nev Clavain Wise Guys	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:55:00 - [13] You get diminishing returns on your thrust - accelearation ratio as you approach the speed of light because of the relative mass increase. However, you would still keep accelerating up until just below C. So there is a maximum speed for the ship, which is C, but the current fixed limits are obviously not right scientifically, but are obviously important in terms of gameplay. It is a game remember . Sig removed. Please keep sigs to 400x120 pixels and 24000 bytes in size or less. -Kaemonn
Harridan	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:56:00 - [14] And while your working on this issue, I think that you should add gravity to the physics engine. Stars, planets, stuff!!!! Come on CCP, think of the fun to be had coding that.
Shionoya Risa Caldari The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Harridan And while your working on this issue, I think that you should add gravity to the physics engine. Stars, planets, stuff!!!! Come on CCP, think of the fun to be had coding that. Go sit next to a roid and try and get away.
Darksaber64x Ecchi co.	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Tehyarec Edited by: Tehyarec on 02/11/2006 12:50:52 Originally by: Glumpumpkin Acceleration is simply the rate at which your ship's velocity changes without regard to how high your velocity is, until you get very close to the speed of light. Therefore if your ship accelerates at 4km/s, every second your total velocity will increase by 4km/s. That's my understanding at least. Well, I'm quite far from proficient in physics, but... as far as I know, thrust power comes into it as well. The faster you go, the more thrusting power you need. Kinda like if you drive a car or fly a plane. Sure you can accelerate for a certain time, but then comes a point when the engine just can't create enough "power" to make it go faster. It would be the same thing in space too. Why do you think we currently can't do manned flights farther out than the moon? It's because we don't have engines that could generate enough thrust for a long enough time to achieve such a speed that the trip would happen in a feasible amount of time (fuel is also an issue, but not the biggest one, since once you'd have a high enough speed, you could cut the engines). What comes to particles obliterating ships at that speeds... normally true, but that's what shield systems would be for I suppose. I don't know enough about physics to say whether or not such an energy barrier would stop small particles and matter that you could run into in space. I would love it if you could fly in EVE Independence War-style, but that'd absolutely murder the servers from what I understand. So realistic physics isn't something we can expect to have in a space MMORPG of EVE's scale for a long, long time We DO have the ability to get the mars and such... we can't really go too much faster than a certain speed though, since like a poster above said, space dust would smash the ship. The reason we havn't gone to mars is because it'd be too expencive for what it's worth, and going a safe speed it would take over a month to get there. The pilots would go crazy more than likely. (This is me just talking and remembering crap, it may be out of date info :D)
herot Icarus Ascendant	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:02:00 - [17] And I thought this was going to be a topic about interstellar dating...
Erica chez Amarr Black Thorne Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:06:00 - [18] If you push an object in space it will continue on the trajectory + speed that you pushed it until it hit something else or it's own velocity is degraded by friction from gravitational forces in space (planets, moons, stars etc). Items do not increase in speed, they have a static inertia that continues until it meets another force, if they increased in speed we couldn't keep satellites orbiting in space because they would eventually screw out of the earths gravitational pull and be flung into space. Objects that have a means of propulsion can use other gravitational objects in space to increase their velocity. When we sent the Apollo guys to the moon they where flung around the earth to gain speed, same goes with the satellites to Mars, Venus & the voyager satellites that are leaving our solar system now.
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:09:00 - [19] Incidentally, I'd just like to point out that power output from an engine doesn't actually effect the maximum speed in space like it does on Earth. On Earth you're limited due to frictional and drag effects - at some point due to your speed the opposition they create is equal to the force your engine can apply. In space this isn't the case - if you have a tiny thrust (say, a stream of Xenon atoms like are used in ion drives) - then you can in fact still reach extremely high speeds, it just takes a very long time. In fact if you do it long enough you could go all the way upto 0.99999 repeater * c. --- Encrypted Client Side Bookmarks! Raise YOUR voice to CCP. Let's end slow copy times and bookmark lag for good!
Nicoli Voldkif Caelli-Merced	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:10:00 - [20] The main effect of a true newtonian game engine is the opposite of what most people think. The average speed in the game would decrease. If you look at some of the better examples of newtonian space combat on TV (Battlestar: galactica and babylon 5) the average speed of the ships and fighters are very slow, around 10-30m/s when I did some rough math based on how long a ship took to cover its entire length in a frame. This is because the advantages you get with a true newtonian physics flight engine is the ability to rapidly and radicaly change direction at low speeds. Now as long as we have the implimentation of the server recording your direction and velocity for when you log back in(have to prevent those people who would try to exploit having your speed reset to 0 at log in), Your going to see either very similiar or slower speeds then you do now just for control reasons. Also consider what would be the reason to travel 100km/s, if your guns only have a 50km range? Either you would have to slow down significantly or you would never be able to break anyone's tank with the build up and slow down times to pass by each other.

Essential 12939	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:12:00 - [21] I'm not debating what ships do in space, and how thrust works. Frankly at it's base level it is easy physics, and that people will argue with it shows what level of misunderstanding you must overcome, not even worth trying. However, the only game I can think of that had almost realistic flight was Frontier. And I loved it, but I don't know too many people that did. Can you imagine bringing that insane level of complexity to Eve? 95% of players would quit instantly. Absolutely unable to fathom decelerating for half of your jounrey, let alone being able to actually do it. On the plus side, you would be losing the right 95% The only other game I know of that is genuinely HARD. VERY HARD. EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. is Evil Islands. About 6 people play it. It's amazing. Nival went ker-splash when the children realised they couldn't get involved, but hey, the product lives on, kind of. Not sure Eve could survive with a player base of 300, but I'd be prepared to up the price maybe 5 fold for a decent HARD game where your Garden Variety Moron had no hope whatsoever of competing with you on any level at all. Seeing as they just upgraded the hardware, how about taking the old server back out of the skip, making a Nightmare Difficult version and letting the 300 of us who want to play on it. It's could probably handle 300 simultaneous players, 21 thousand was a bit much.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Essential 12939 I'm not debating what ships do in space, and how thrust works. [...] Can you imagine bringing that insane level of complexity to Eve? Winner. ---------- IBTL \o/
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:19:00 - [23] I try not to think about it, it just makes my head throb. _______
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:22:00 - [24] I've been of the opinion that Newtonian physics in EVE would actually be relatively unobtrusive as a change. All the max speeds would be changed to be maximum accelerations, and warp would be able to insert you at the correct velocity into a grid, which may be moving at thousands of Km/s. Unobtrusive until you start playing around with the possibilities it gives. --- Encrypted Client Side Bookmarks! Raise YOUR voice to CCP. Let's end slow copy times and bookmark lag for good!
Erica chez Amarr Black Thorne Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:24:00 - [25] Originally by: Darksaber64x We DO have the ability to get the mars and such... we can't really go too much faster than a certain speed though, since like a poster above said, space dust would smash the ship. The reason we havn't gone to mars is because it'd be too expencive for what it's worth, and going a safe speed it would take over a month to get there. The pilots would go crazy more than likely. It took the Mars Express just shy of 6 months to reach mars, at approx 3,400km per hour.
Kakk0 Warui	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:34:00 - [26] No drag? Dang, and I just bought tickets to the Duripant station production of the Rocky horror picture show.
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:41:00 - [27] OHhh here are some old ones I remember. Why cant we see dents on our ships? Why do I warp thru planets moons stars and astroids? How can ammo/Missles go thru other ships/astroids/cargo cans to reach thier target ? Why do my guns/launchers not overheat( this might get fixed)? Do our characters picture really look like ourselves after 30 clones? Why cant our implants be placed on our portrait? New ones? Will rigging be visable on ships in space? Originally by: Tuxford .....stuff... Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:43:00 - [28] In the universe of EVE, physical laws are clearly different than in our universe -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Roshan longshot Gallente Order of the Arrow	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:45:00 - [29] Originally by: Glumpumpkin In space, there is no drag. As such, ships should continually accelerate all the way to .999 C (speed of light), but at those speeds your skill training should slow down relative to being in motion at 0m/s, in keeping with the theory of relativity. This way players taking advantage of supreme speed to evade capture will have to consider the consequences of their actions and weigh them against being caught up to. Orbiting wouldn't be changed at all because to orbit another player you would have to continually change your direction of motion relative to the ship you're orbiting, but ships having a maximum speed is a ridiculous notion. CCP this is what I mean....another post by "!"...And wtf is he talking about? THIS IS A FRIGGING GAME! Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Lucre STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:47:00 - [30] Hm. According to the Item database, the Slasher has a mass of 1 million kg. Put a 1MN afterburner on that and you get 1.5MN of thrust and 1.5 million kg of mass for an acceleration of, yes, 1 metre/second. Or put another way, one of the fastest frigates in Eve has a 0-60mph time of 27 seconds... Sure gonna take a long time to lightspeed... - It's great flying Amarr, aint it?



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