I agree with this thread in principle. My basic theory for Eve PvP is that you need speed. If you don't have it, you need projection, DPS and tank to avoid getting outbrawled or kited. BCs have DPS and tank over cruisers (except T3s, which is a separate issue), but lack projection and are easily kited. Giving them better projection would allow them to prevent this, or alternatively, allow them to fit smaller guns and defend themselves against frigates (which they are terribly vulnerable to right now). I would also support a moderate boost to BC speed to better distinguish them from BSs.

A bump for this thread

Not that im expecting a response from the devs, but to try and move it up the ladder for better visibility. Who is the responsible CSM for something like this?

Seems there is a reasonable amount of support here. If they dont want to implement this change, then I would be curious as to what role they see for BCs?

In terms of actually taking action, I would like the devs to fix HMLs and to a lesser extent Medium Autocannons before they consider any drastic changes to BC roles.

As for CCP Rise saying BCs are in a relatively good place, I'm curious as to whether he looked at individual hulls or just the use of the class in general. In the latter case I think the use of Myrmidons as cheap Eoses might be hiding the lack of use of the other BCs.

Without checking ISIS, I think each race has 2 Combat BCs and an Attack BC. I think one of the combat BC's needs 1 Damage and 1 Tank Bonus, and the other Combat BC needs 1 Damage Bonus and 1 MJD bonus. With both getting an application bonus.

So a unique bonus to the MJD, which is already a fairly unique puppy, and a third bonus?
Lovely. Sounds like a recipe for Return of the Drake, where one does not simply warp into Delve.

On a more serious note.
t1 hulls, with a very few exceptions, get 2 bonuses that are unique to the hull, and not role bonuses.

So a unique bonus to the MJD, which is already a fairly unique puppy, and a third bonus?
Lovely. Sounds like a recipe for Return of the Drake, where one does not simply warp into Delve.

On a more serious note.
t1 hulls, with a very few exceptions, get 2 bonuses that are unique to the hull, and not role bonuses.

On a more serious note.
t1 hulls, with a very few exceptions, get 2 bonuses that are unique to the hull, and not role bonuses.

Destroyers disagree with you. They all get a Role bonus.
Battlecruisers are in the same situation as Destroyers, so should be treated the same way and gain a role bonus.

Well they do kinda have a role bonus albeit a almost useless one.

Not useless, they get either range or application which allows them to kill the much faster frigate. BC's have a similar relationship as in they are supposed to be anti-cruiser boats, but without application they just get kited to death. Giving them the bonus application allows them to actually apply damage.

The Drake would be something like:

5% Missile damage
4% shield resists

role: 37.5% explosion radius or 50% missile velocity

The Ferox would be

5% hybrid damage
10% MJD cooldown

role: 50% optimal

With the Attack BC's unchanged.

The Prophecy:

10% Drone HP/Damage
4% Armor Resists

Role: 37.5% drone tracking

Harbringer:
10% Medium Damage
10% MJD Cooldown reduction

Role: 37.5% Optimal and 25% Activation



The whole point of this thread was to give the t1 bc's a role bonus that improved damage application

Those bonuses are insane. No I don't support that. Optimal/falloff bonuses should be 25% at most. Especially considering BCs can fit substantially larger tanks than cruisers. Destroyers often have identical or only marginally larger tanks than ftigs.

Also prophecy/myrm don't need drone tracking bonuses. They need drone speed bonuses. medium drones and sentry drones track cruisers fine. Their issue is catching and keeping up with them.

Well these proposed changes are indeed a bit rough around the edges. You should refer to Stitch's proposed changes, as they are more reasonably balanced.

I agree with the proposal of giving CBC's projection bonuses.


The other thing I think could be a really good addition would be to re-design Command Ships like "Mini Marauders". This would give command ships a real bonus over CBC's and you could even potentially push the link bonus command ships have into the Bastion module. Forcing command ships to "Deploy" to get large link bonuses. A deployed OGB would be easy to probe and catch making them less appealing as OGB's without being properly fit. The Bastion Module would make them very tough on grid as fleet boosters though. Giving them the Marauder MJD bonus would also give them great mobility on grid too.

It's bonkers but might be a really interesting concept. (CBC's with resist bonuses would have to swap the bonus for rep bonuses)

Has Stitch actually proposed numbers? I've just seen his proposal regarding the type of role bonus for each class which in theory I'm fine with. Although I would say these role bonuses definitely need to be added to faction BCs as well as they're currently pointless when you consider their price and the price of Command Ships.

The "cruiser problem" is also exaggerated in my opinion. There are actually only a few tech 1 cruisers that are cancerous on the current meta (*cough*vexor*cough). Most are just pretty average and there are quite a few rather **** cruisers still floating around.

25% bonus to damage projection bonuses (including drone speed) IMO opinion is fine. This way they don't obsolete HACs and Command Ships but generally enough to apply damage to kiters holding them them at long point range.

Especially considering BCs can fit substantially larger tanks than cruisers. Destroyers often have identical or only marginally larger tanks than ftigs.

Also prophecy/myrm don't need drone tracking bonuses. They need drone speed bonuses. medium drones and sentry drones track cruisers fine. Their issue is catching and keeping up with them.

The problem i have with 25% bonus to projection, is it barely affects the range for the weapons. For example, 180mm autocannons with a 25% bonus to falloff go from 11km to 13km.

A 25% bonus to optimal for 720's makes arty go from 15km to 18.75km. This really does nothing to improve projection in any meaningful way. Its basically adding a single built in TE to hull. After discussion with others, i think we've felt that 37.5% is a good medium at this point. Not as powerful as HAC or some T1 cruiser projection bonuses, but still enough of a bonus to make it worthwhile, and to help fulfill BC's anti-cruiser role.

The one thing you may be forgetting, especially in comparison to destroyers, is that even with these range bonuses, without tracking bonuses, the guns can be outtracked fairly easily still, and missiles still won't apply well (w/o webs and TP). Destroyers have both projection/application bonuses. T1 BC's will not. Faction BC's will have both bonuses. So there is certainly room for a well setup/piloted cruiser to beat the proposal for T1 BC's. Just like how properly fit AF/pirate or certain T1 frigs can kill a destroyer.

BC's tank is not as big as you think. There might be exceptions, but for the most part, a couple cruisers could easily take down a BC. Triple rep myrm being the exception, or brick tanked drake/proph. But, a maller, aug navy, gila, strat, moa, are capable of fielding a BC tank. Not to mention most HAC's are still quite capable of handling a solo BC. Plus, the ones that don't have the tank to straight up brawl a BC, have the speed to kite them indefinitely.

Iyacia Cyric'ai, the way the eve ship food chain should be set up is T1 BC should be able to easily kill T1 C, Faction BC kills Faction C, Pirate Faction BC (when they come out) kills Pirate Faction C, and T2 BC (CS) kills T2 C (HACs).

As far as the Projection role bonus goes, I believe the T1 BC's should remain as they are with THAT warfare link role bonus. The Faction BC's should be given a 37.5% optimal range/fallout role bonus without the warfare link role bonus. Pirate Faction BC's should have a 100 % damage role bonus with 4 turrets/launchers and a Tracking Speed + Falloff skill bonus. Command Ships should be given at least another role bonus like a -50-70% MMJD reactivation cooldown AND another utility high slot.

I by no means have experience with Battlecruisers as the last time they were considered "good" was like 2 years ago between when I was playing.

I'd also like to add that I have never seen a T1 BC used as a Link Boat. I've seen FC's in brick tanked Command Ships, and the Offgrid T3 with a cloak, but never a T1. I'd bet they are so rarely used that if CCP took that role bonus off them no one would actually notice or care.