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Free Space: The Morally Bankrupt Concept.

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00tricky Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.04 02:51:00 - [91] Edited by: 00tricky on 04/11/2006 02:54:39 Edit: cause Nez already addressed this.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.11.04 04:18:00 - [92] Originally by: Drusus Rensus ..EVE political spectrum.... You make some interesting observations that make sense and then they don't.. I don't believe you can really classify EVE into political spectrums like that.. or at least not with such rigid adherance to RL political classifications. To talk about your post in more detail would probably require a whole new thread with classifications strictly based upon political manifestations within EVE and only EVE. So... I'll just say that I think what you are saying isn't all that relevant to this particular discussion. There is no inherent discussion of wether free space works or doesn't work, though it may be discussed if anybody wishes to do so.. but its not what I was interested in pointing out. The discussion is really meant to be about wether the traditional reasoning/argumentation for free space and thus the version of free space traditionally promoted is valid, i.e morally solvent.
Leilani Solaris Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.04 04:22:00 - [93] Free Hat, Free Hat!
Death Merchant InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.04 04:22:00 - [94] I think of it like this. Free Space is like coming home from work and finding some homeless guy in your kitchen. You find out hes a nice guy and think hey, homeless people aren't bad. The next day there is another homeless guy, this one smiles alot and is nice and you think hey Ive met another one. You wake up the next morning and your wife tells you, some homeless guy warp scrambled and podded my in the bathroom while you were sleep. NBSI is like coming home and finding on homeless guy in your kitchen, in which you immediately kick him out and lock the door. Yeah you feel a little bad if you find out later he was starving and just wanted a meal, but all in all you feel more safe and secure. "What happens in Deklien stays in Deklien".
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.11.04 04:27:00 - [95] Originally by: Leilani Solaris Free Hat, Free Hat! spam spam spam spam.. You already had one thread locked the other day.. are you trying for a second? We've already seen all your sigs like twenty times over thx a lot.
Lucian Alucard Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.04 05:40:00 - [96] Originally by: Angry Dan Originally by: Lucian Alucard This post address' the main faults of Free Space, it can not be secured from pirates,it can not be protected from those willing to claim it,it can not be done without a NBSI policy and it in no way helps the newbs,its a pipe dream. Maybe, but then people thought flying to the moon was a dream. Dreams can become reality if you try hard enough. Its not about getting to the moon Dan its about colonizing it and making sure it works,in this case thats impossible.
Eutectic Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.04 06:06:00 - [97] Free space discussions reminds me it's time to shoot more JF.
Angry Dan Caldari Widowmakers	Posted - 2006.11.04 09:22:00 - [98] Originally by: Lucian Alucard Originally by: Angry Dan Originally by: Lucian Alucard This post address' the main faults of Free Space, it can not be secured from pirates,it can not be protected from those willing to claim it,it can not be done without a NBSI policy and it in no way helps the newbs,its a pipe dream. Maybe, but then people thought flying to the moon was a dream. Dreams can become reality if you try hard enough. Its not about getting to the moon Dan its about colonizing it and making sure it works,in this case thats impossible. How about sailing to the east indies, and founding a colony there? (see Christopher Columbus (1) in 1492, a bunch of vikings circa 1000, the mayflower, ect etc) After all, the world is flat dammit! Oh, wait, it isn't. (1) man, he was crap at navigating. Never, ever let him read the map I tell ya! ++++++++++++++++++++ Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Widowmakers director Fear my kneepads of allure!
Drusus Rensus Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2006.11.04 15:35:00 - [99] Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 04/11/2006 15:43:13 Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 04/11/2006 15:38:34 Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Drusus Rensus ..EVE political spectrum.... So... I'll just say that I think what you are saying isn't all that relevant to this particular discussion. There is no inherent discussion of wether free space works or doesn't work, though it may be discussed if anybody wishes to do so.. but its not what I was interested in pointing out. The discussion is really meant to be about wether the traditional reasoning/argumentation for free space and thus the version of free space traditionally promoted is valid, i.e morally solvent. Well, ok, maybe I'm getting tripped up on the terms that you're using here. Moral relates to the definition of what is rightand what is wrong. To say that something is morally bankrupt usually means that you're saying it's completely devoid of morality. In other words it's either amoral (doesn't try to define right and wrong at all) or, in your opinion anyway, it's immoral (wrong). Your tack here is tried and true. Describing some other societal structure as "morally bankrupt" is one of the ways that people get themselves ready to go to war. In eve, that's cool. War is good. Shooting is fun. I just hope you don't actually believe it. If you do, a break from eve might be in order. The people who endorse "free space" aren't "morally bankrupt". They have a different idea about what eve should be like than you do. Basically, they try to re-create empire space in 0.0 space with whoever the sovereign entity is playing the part of Concord. Will they be successful? Only to the extent that it's fun to play Concord (just shoot the bad actors), and playing Concord attracts enough highly skilled people to repel anyone who thinks that the NPC empires suck and don't want 0.0 player-owned empires to emulate them. Putting morals aside (still can't belive we're using the M word OOC in a game). Will "free space" work? Probably not. Nations always have trouble with unconditionally open borders. It works for NPCs, becuase NPCs don't have to have fun. They're just there, doing what they do, 23/7. Since players aren't NPCs and can't be vigilent 23/7, too many bad actors will take the path of least resistance and end up there, and the established citizens will inevitably start to gripe about the scarcity of resources and having to compete for same with the newcommers. At the same time, creating an ultra-nationalist neo-fascist state (we shoot all strangers, you must know someone to get in, and follow strict rules and codes of conduct once you are in, or die) has it's own problems. In the end, you choose one or the other, depending on what seems right to you, and you live with the consequences. In the final analysis, "free space" isn't any more free than "not free space". It's just a different set of rules, imposed by a different set of people. The better term would probably be "Neo-Empire Space" since the "free space" advocates basically try to emulate Empire in 0.0 (with them as the imperialists, of course). What would "free space" really look like? Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are more moons than players in eve. True "Free Space" would be everyone grabs a moon, throws up their own little homestead, and does whatever makes them happy in game. Of course, that's not going to happen, any more than it happens in the real world. We're group social primates who naturally form heirarchies of power and influence. Eve doesn't require us to do it. We just do. Welcome to the human condition.
Hans Roaming Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.04 15:44:00 - [100] Originally by: Lucian Alucard This post address' the main faults of Free Space, it can not be secured from pirates,it can not be protected from those willing to claim it,it can not be done without a NBSI policy and it in no way helps the newbs,its a pipe dream. You can attack the pirates on sight and those that do keep numbers down, also noobs learn how to avoid then kill those pirates. If the ones who want to claim it are the ones with a free space policy then there is no conflict. And yes it can be done with a NRDS policy, Huzzah used to do it in providence with CVA for a long time as well as numerous other entities within eve. So the fact it acts as 0.0 light does help noobs as it is a less steep learning curve. But seriously what is wrong with other people trying it out and seeing what works and what does not, how does it detract from your or anyone else's gameplay?

Lygos ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.11.05 01:58:00 - [101] Without solo npcing, the xenophobic, isolationist tribes would be nothing. Most superpowers stay that way through a polity connected to trade rather than through domestic resource extraction. In EVE, the people that create are the ones that aren't satisfied with just the options given to them. --- Private Investment should preceed Public Investment
Redwolf Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:40:00 - [102] Originally by: Nez Perces yes ... as a matter of fact I have, as already stated in the OP.. and I actually remember your name. I believe we have fought before, in the CFS wars. If we fought, then you really havent experienced what it is you claim to, if you mean 'fought with', then maybe you can accept that the CFS was fundamentaly flawed in that it tried to achieve arguably the most difficult task in Eve without the tools needed to do the job, namely Alliance and POS.
Redwolf Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:42:00 - [103] oh and as an aside, no space can ever be properly policed, not even the very large alliances can honestly claim to properly police thier space, though i'm sure a few would try.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:46:00 - [104] Originally by: Redwolf If we fought, then you really havent experienced what it is you claim to, if you mean 'fought with', then maybe you can accept that the CFS was fundamentaly flawed in that it tried to achieve arguably the most difficult task in Eve without the tools needed to do the job, namely Alliance and POS. I fought against you as I was part of the QDF, which previuosly existed within the CFS framework for a period of time.. and before the QDF, my ex-corp, J.H.E.N.R arrived in Querious on invitation by both Black Avatar and Ascendancy... funnily enough we didnt fully realise that the region was under CFS charter.. when we did, our reaction was.. err WTF there are loads of neutrals floating around..
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:48:00 - [105] Originally by: Redwolf oh and as an aside, no space can ever be properly policed, not even the very large alliances can honestly claim to properly police thier space, though i'm sure a few would try. thats not actually true... an efficient NBSI alliance can lock 0.0 down pretty good, and I'm talking under 15 min flight time for neutrals.
Xors	Posted - 2006.11.05 05:57:00 - [106] Edited by: Xors on 05/11/2006 06:02:24 I have to agree with the original poster.... Free Space is the worst idea ever.... it frustrates the PvPrs, its overly bureacratic, it results in free-loaders, moochers, squatters, and becomes a pirate magnet. The crumbling of the Big Blue Alliance into dust is a beautiful example of how not having an NBSI policy F**ks you over and destroys morale. Nez, I only wish your post had existed when Big Blue was formalizing its policy so that many could have read it and become enlightened.... and been spared from the idiotic Free-Space experimental hell that followed. Cheers Xors
Turkantho Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.05 11:52:00 - [107] For me every 0.0 Region where you don't have to ask another Player if you can dock is free space. There is no real way to control NPC 0.0 Space, in every other 0.0 region with conquerables the greedyness of the Players who control that space will always succeed over any so called lets give ppl access because we're nice free space ideas. ________ Asgar[D]¦
Sphalerite Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.05 22:33:00 - [108] Originally by: Nez Perces What is 0.0 Space? Actually 0.0 space is not much at all in terms of what is physically there... some high end roids, and some high end rats.. hardly a lot to get excited about, and if you are lucky you will get to see a player built outpost. Have any of you ever been on the test server? Floating around 0.0 on your own is about the dullest thing I have ever done. No.. no.. infact what makes 0.0 so exciting is what happens there.... the player created content, I.e the battles between the alliances over territory and resources. And this is the crux of it.. free space is not real 0.0 .. its the equivalent of a themepark for the inept.. again My Little Pony (The Themepark). Actually, free space is a much better teacher of combat than the current blob war alliances. Newbs in 0.0 draw pirates like nothing else, and pirates in sufficiant numbers allow antipirates to actually exist. Small group combat where both sides have lots of targets teaches PvP about 1000x faster than sitting in a mining barge or NPCing ship waiting for your T2 guns to finish training so you can join the blob for exciting 200k sniping. As for if free space will ever exist anymore, it basically depends on if BOB will get bored with their current pet alliance system. "Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall"
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.11.05 22:40:00 - [109] Originally by: Sphalerite Actually, free space is a much better teacher of combat than the current blob war alliances. Newbs in 0.0 draw pirates like nothing else, and pirates in sufficiant numbers allow antipirates to actually exist. Small group combat where both sides have lots of targets teaches PvP about 1000x faster than sitting in a mining barge or NPCing ship waiting for your T2 guns to finish training so you can join the blob for exciting 200k sniping. k.. so you are saying that 'free space' is inherently riddled with pirates etc.... I did mention that in myth no.3.. However, you better than most will agree that you don't need 'free space' to get small gang combat going... Finite Horizon have been goading NBSI territorial alliances all over the EVE map for years now.... additionally anti-piracy can be conducted within low sec where there are still plenty of pirates doing the ol' sentry tanking gig. Sure 'free space' attracts pirates like moths to a flame, but that can hardly be a good reason to set it up in the first place and it surely isn't necessary to experience small gang combat. There is nothing stopping NBSI alliances doing small gang raids on other NBSI alliances.. or anybody else for that matter.
Del369 Caldari Office linebackers Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.11.05 22:52:00 - [110] Some Alliances run very good 0.0 markets, blowing the customers away as they come to spend their hard earned isk in your station, well its a bit like cutting off your nose just to **** your face off, d'oh, rocket science it certainly aint. Both systems (NBSI and lets not blow the customers away)have their place, IAC just fought hard to keep theirs. I want to die quietly in my sleep just like my dear old grandma, and not screaming in terror like her passengers!!

Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.11.05 22:53:00 - [111] Edited by: Nez Perces on 05/11/2006 22:55:10 .. additionally there is another consideration, Sphalerite.. you say that 'free space' is a good environment to learn small gang pvp... perhaps this is the case. But... who will be the ones that grasp such opportunities to hone their pvp?.. it will be those with the necessary spunk/aptitude... and you will find that those same pilots would pursue pvp knowledge wherever they found themselves.. 'free space' or no 'free space'. Meanwhile the moochers, free loaders and the rest of the undesirables free space attracts, will do what they always do and run for cover.
Sphalerite Caldari Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.11.05 23:48:00 - [112] Originally by: Nez Perces However, you better than most will agree that you don't need 'free space' to get small gang combat going... Finite Horizon have been goading NBSI territorial alliances all over the EVE map for years now.... I also know better than most that 90% of alliances drill into their members to log or SS untill the 50 man blob comes to deal with the problem. No alliance = limited backup = be self reliant or GTFO. Quote: k.. so you are saying that 'free space' is inherently riddled with pirates etc.... I did mention that in myth no.3.. Smile you also mentioned that free 0.0 would be a my little pony dreamland. Pirates are a good thing for any region. They weed out the sickly and stupid from the herd. "Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall"
Orc A Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.06 00:43:00 - [113] Whats really funny is that a big quantaty of posters on this thread have no clue what-so-ever about 0.0 NBSI alliances. it's really hillarious to see that in the eyes of some, any 0.0 NBSI alliance is a BloB machine that just blobs all day, wether it's in mining, NPCing, or PvPing. Funny. I mean, even large sclae alliance (2k+ players) have small scale combat. You want small scale combat vs big alliance? hit them in their weak Timezone. You want solo action? Go to a 0.0 bottleneck (like hed-gp) around DT. Free space, from my point of view is good for 1 thing, and one thing only - entertaining me when i go there hunting for targets, as the land lords convo me and ask me if i'm hostile after i shot down one of their scouts. seriosully, there's so much more to 0.0 alliances and 0.0 PvP then whats presented in this thread that infact - it even sort of strenghtens the OP's claims. the fact that the people posting here "pro" free space are clueless regarding the anture of true 0.0 - backign up the point that Free space is a demi-simulative-playground area, Or as the OP said in his (wise) words: My Little Pony (PC version). Originally by: End Yourself hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.11.06 01:00:00 - [114] Edited by: Nez Perces on 06/11/2006 01:14:54 Originally by: Sphalerite Pirates are a good thing for any region. They weed out the sickly and stupid from the herd. K.. fine pirates are all things considered a very +ve influence in the game.. no argument there. They are however a +ve influence wether 'free space' is enabled or not. As for your comment about how alliances blob.. well thats a whole different subject
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.06 01:19:00 - [115] I'd say if people like it, let they do it, like IAC. I don't know, if it helps newbies a lot. It makes it easy for them to get into 0.0 that's true, but a blue/not blue separation for a newbie is even easier, once he is in an alliance. Ok, joining a 0.0 alliance comes at the costs that you are no freelancer anymore. Valid point. From the perspective of an occupied alliance I think NBSI or not NBSI is easy to answer: People usally have better things to do then care about neutrals and wonder, what their intentions are. Neutrals usually bring no real benefit, so you set them to kos, until they have made it to your friend list. All potential problems and all the hassle moved aside with a simple policy: 'If they haven't contacted you and got positive standings, they get shot !' Easier for all pilots, blue/not-blue is just one look, no other question needed. Also no hassle for the leadership, they can concentrate on the important things, like the wars they have running and don't have to care about standing issues every day. NBSI isn't just to be mean or to score kills, that's a side product, it's just the easiest most efficent way.
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:37:00 - [116] Originally by: Drusus Rensus The people who endorse "free space" aren't "morally bankrupt". They have a different idea about what eve should be like than you do. Basically, they try to re-create empire space in 0.0 space with whoever the sovereign entity is playing the part of Concord. Will they be successful? Only to the extent that it's fun to play Concord Excellent post. Shame noone cares to read it and comment, not even the core part that I quoted. Remember folks, EVE is supposed to be a sandbox game. There's no rule saying NBSI is the only way to go (though it's a lot of fun to most people). ------ No ISK, no fun
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:56:00 - [117] Freespace is not morally corrupt, the ideal isn't a failure as no ideal can be a failure. It's practical implementation within Eve is still a failure however, and always will be. The presence of a strongest entity that makes the rules is directly opposed to the noption of 'free' space. As long as the former is a neccesity the latter is impractical. Old blog
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.11.06 18:48:00 - [118] Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub Originally by: Drusus Rensus The people who endorse "free space" aren't "morally bankrupt". They have a different idea about what eve should be like than you do. Basically, they try to re-create empire space in 0.0 space with whoever the sovereign entity is playing the part of Concord. Will they be successful? Only to the extent that it's fun to play Concord Excellent post. Shame noone cares to read it and comment, not even the core part that I quoted. Remember folks, EVE is supposed to be a sandbox game. There's no rule saying NBSI is the only way to go (though it's a lot of fun to most people). A point I have tried and possibly failed to put across in this thread is that the motivations for enabling 'free space' are the determining factor in assessing the moral solvency of this particular ideal. Now if the motivation is fun for the host alliance..i.e roleplaying concord or roleplaying the good guy.. then yes its an acceptable motivation, a playstyle choice. If the motivation is to setup a business venture where the users of free space are effectively clients paying for access, thats an acceptable motivation too. but.. when the 'free space' idealists tell us that they are doing it because it is necessary for the good of EVE and the newbies.. thats when they become liars and lose moral solvency. What I hope this thread will do is cut out the altruistic argument from the 'free space' discussion, which I suspect will continue for as long as the EVE servers are live. Originally by: Rod Blaine Freespace is not morally corrupt, the ideal isn't a failure as no ideal can be a failure. It's practical implementation within Eve is still a failure however, and always will be. The presence of a strongest entity that makes the rules is directly opposed to the noption of 'free' space. As long as the former is a neccesity the latter is impractical. I entirely agree with you Rod, that its practical implementation is not achievable..... Knowing this fact, are the entities that then proclaim it as a necessity for the wellbeing of the community not purposefully using a morally bankrupt argument? When 'free space' idealists look to setup their 'free space'... do not be fooled... they are doing it for one of two reasons or both. For their own amusement(playstyle choice, RP) or for profit. Any other reason they give is either an outright lie or as a result of not knowing any better. Thats my point.
Apedrape Minmatar Barbaric Beerlords of SOT	Posted - 2006.11.06 19:01:00 - [119] NBSI = A Corporate and Alliance policy that enables members to commit piracy while patting each other on the back and reassuring each other that they are not pirates. You can paint NBSI any way that you like, but that is all that it is. The only reason that NBSI can even be implemented is EVE's infinite supply of resources. In the real world, which a lot of long winded jibber jabbers like to compare EVE with, nations cannot afford to implement or sustain such a policy. If a nation had an infinite supply of natural resources and personel, sure, they could do it. But they don't, so they don't. Some of you claim, "But... but... It's necessary to secure our territory!" I call BS. Quite often I see alliances, outside of their territory, gleefully implementing NBSI (KOS) on everyone they come into contact with. If you are going to be pirates, be pirates. But FFS, grow a pair and call yourselves pirates and quit trying to make it sound noble.
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.11.07 11:30:00 - [120] Originally by: Nez Perces I entirely agree with you Rod, that its practical implementation is not achievable..... Knowing this fact, are the entities that then proclaim it as a necessity for the wellbeing of the community not purposefully using a morally bankrupt argument? When 'free space' idealists look to setup their 'free space'... do not be fooled... they are doing it for one of two reasons or both. For their own amusement(playstyle choice, RP) or for profit. Any other reason they give is either an outright lie or as a result of not knowing any better. You believe the free space ideal to be impossible - and you may be right, I am too new to this to judge. From a moral standpoint tho it is the belief of those selling the concept that matters. If someone believes that a free space ideal is good for the game - incorrectly or not, and works to achieve it then the concept cannot be morally bankrupt as you argue. Only if they have ulterior motives would this be the case. From my limited perspective I think this would be a better game if NBSI were less prevalent and that more people would gain more enjoyment from it. I might be right I might be wrong, I might come to change my opinion as time passes. Because an idea is impractical does not make it any more or less morally valid. RL world peace is an impractical dream, would hoping to see it one day make me morally bankrupt ? Would joining an organisation that was trying to work towards it ?



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