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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:36:00 -
[1]
My main aim in this thread is to debunk some of the common myths that are used in the pro- free space argument.
This is a far reaching topic that I would like to address and the main problem in tackling it is where to start, rather than what to write.
We could ofc start from the beginning.. always a good idea.
Myth no.1 : Lets start with new players, affectionally known as "newbies/noobs". A frequent argument in favour of free space is that it helps newbies get to know 0.0 without having to sell their soul to a corp in a 0.0 NBSI alliance.
To understand why this is a load of old tosh, one has to establish some definitions here... newbies.. and 0.0 space.
What is a newbie in EVE? Is it a new born child fresh out of the womb without any notion of self-preservation in EVE or is it a fully grown adult/teenager who has just passed their pod pilot license exams. I say its the latter, a newbie in EVE simply means that there is a period whereby the pilot needs to find his bearings and within a couple of weeks, skill points not withstanding, the smart pod pilot will know as much as he/she needs to know about the basics in EVE. How much or how much he doesnt know will depend on his/her aptitude. A newbie in EVE can be as deadly in a 2 week time period as a vet of 3 years with a low aptitude for space piloting. This is an undeniable fact. So.. in conclusion, the determining factor for how much of a newbie a newbie really is... is actually aptitude, not time spent playing the game. Newbies don't need mollycuddling and if the do, perhaps they should be playing My Little Pony (PC version) instead.
What is 0.0 Space? Actually 0.0 space is not much at all in terms of what is physically there... some high end roids, and some high end rats.. hardly a lot to get excited about, and if you are lucky you will get to see a player built outpost.
Have any of you ever been on the test server? Floating around 0.0 on your own is about the dullest thing I have ever done. No.. no.. infact what makes 0.0 so exciting is what happens there.... the player created content, I.e the battles between the alliances over territory and resources. And this is the crux of it.. free space is not real 0.0 .. its the equivalent of a themepark for the inept.. again My Little Pony (The Themepark).
So lets combine these two definitions to see what free space offers in terms of real 0.0 to the newbie with plenty of aptitude/spunk... and the answer ofc is nothing, nada.
All they get to see is how a bunch of newbies get decieved by the free space version of 0.0 where they don't learn a thing.. i.e how you have to fight for the priveledge of being in 0.0 .. (the host patrols and protects the area).
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:37:00 -
[2]
[Myth no.2] Without free space areas whole swathes of the EVE population never get to experience 0.0.
Another old wives tale... for a marvellous example of how the real 0.0 can be experienced by even the newest of players look no further than Innominate Nightmare... he saw the real 0.0 first hand and battled with the evil forces of Emilio Estevez up in the D2 stronghold. Also one quick look at the eve-online map several uncontested areas of 0.0 with npc stations are visible.. such as Stain or Venal or even Syndicate (a little more dangerous). In such locations a newer corp could go and test the waters of 0.0 and find out what it really means to leave the safety of empire.
Then ofc there is the entities like EVE-university that show new players how to fight and do other stuff... and that under the proper management could get access to any player owned 0.0 they would like. Additionally many pvp entities have training corps.
Also there is the awful possibilty that players have to make their own way in the universe.. I know its an inhumane concept and those poor poor newbies.. all lost and helpless.... may find it excruciatingly hard.... or not. EVE is a pvp game... I get the feeling that there are far too many frustrated primary school teachers lurking around behind the free-space ideal
Myth no.3 : Free space can be controlled via proper patrolling etc..
Here is one of the biggest untruths.... whatever the Free Space entities tell you, they simply cannot control their space without NBSI. Its just not possible. I'll explain why.. its all to do with the standings mechanics in EVE. To enable free space one has to adopt a certain mindset... i.e all neutral pilots are innocent of any wrongdoings until proven otherwise.. as opposed to the NBSI mindset whereby all neutrals are potential enemies and get shot. To run free space you have to keep a listing of hostile entities, friends to blue and neutrals well you dont list them. NBSI simply sets friendlies to blue.
So what happens is that the Free Space Entity has to keep updating their standings list with hostiles whenever one of the neutrals does something wrong.. and believe me that list gets bloody long, to the point where you have to recycle out inactive hostiles because the list becomes unmanageably long. To identify hostiles you need reports of wrongdoings right? ... well you get those through reports of unwarranted attacks or by actively patrolling your space... or by listening to the whining of the other neutrals in your space. Very quicly a beaurocratic bottleneck builds up around this standings method, whereby every hostile has to be investigated to see if it really warrants a -ve standing. The system is vastly inefficient.. pilots in free space are confronted everyday with neutrals, whom could perfectly well be up to no good.. point in case macroers or one man pirate corps etc.. etc.. noob alts, spies the list goes on and on and on.....
Under these conditions... there is really very little chance of controlling space properly, even with the best of intentions.
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:38:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Nez Perces on 03/11/2006 15:41:29
Well thats enough for now... In conclusion I will say this:
The free space concept defies all logic in terms of efficiency and providing a real taster of 0.0. It teaches nothing to new players and invariably attracts freeloaders, macroers and undesirables to squat in 0.0, about which the host alliance upholding free space can do very little, being already beurocratically overloaded.
There is no real reason as to why its a good idea, it is however something, which the die hard free space ideologists cling onto irrespective of logic.
Why? Thats something I have never managed to work out in 3 years of playing the game. I hope this thread will actually provide the answer... the Real answer... I have my own suspicions but they are far too inflamatory for a starter post
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Goberth Ludwig
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:44:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Nez Perces
s cling onto irrespective of logic.
Why?
Maybe some people just find it fun?
- Gob
Originally by: SirMolle
ASCN is feeling the cold, chilling tendrils of fear creep into the hearts of their alliance.
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:48:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Goberth Ludwig
Maybe some people just find it fun?
- Gob
If that is the case then thats absolutely fine.... its a self-serving motivation for doing something, which is perfectly understandable.
... but then any notion of how free space is beneficial to the EVE community and the portrayal of free space as a shaft of light in an uncaring universe needs to be revised.
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Saal Iverson
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:49:00 -
[6]
Friday afternoon going at a snails pace for you at work? :P
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Saal Iverson
Friday afternoon going at a snails pace for you at work? :P
heh.. actually its a thread I have been wanting to make for years... just never got round to it.. 
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Vestalia Gaea
The Echelon
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:51:00 -
[8]
Those are some good arguments, maybe people will at least think twice before trying to create or use 'Free space'.
'A disorderly mob is no more an army than a heap of building materials is a house.' |
Karunel
Nuevos Horizontes
O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:53:00 -
[9]
I don't really understand the point of this thread or the arguments in it... As Gob said, some people think it's cool to have a chunk of space open to everyone and they try to enforce it.
EVE is a game so everyone sets their own goals, whetever they are scamming hundred bills out of people or creating an open space.
Not trying to undermine/ignore your well thought out arguments but I just can't find the point of the thread.
Originally by: elbenito
The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:55:00 -
[10]
I fail to see how this has anything to do with morals.
my thoughts are my own and do not represent the thoughts of my corp |
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:01:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Nez Perces on 03/11/2006 16:02:28
Originally by: Karunel
I don't really understand the point of this thread or the arguments in it... As Gob said, some people think it's cool to have a chunk of space open to everyone and they try to enforce it.
Not trying to undermine/ignore your well thought out arguments but I just can't find the point of the thread.
Originally by: zeKzn
I fail to see how this has anything to do with morals.
.. just to answer both of you at the same time...
There is nothing wrong with setting out one's own goals.... but there is something morally bankrupt with claiming that these goals are for the good of the community and the new players etc... which is quite often the primary argument behind setting up free space.
If the free space chaps admitted that actually its for their own amusement or for monetary gain, then there would be no moral dilema in this issue.
The arguments ofen used in defending free space and hence the version of free space often touted on these forums is morally bankrupt.
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Nez Perces
Originally by: Saal Iverson
Friday afternoon going at a snails pace for you at work? :P
heh.. actually its a thread I have been wanting to make for years... just never got round to it..
I take it the reemergence of CFS under a new name and with shiny stations prompted this then?
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Angry Dan
Caldari
Widowmakers
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:20:00 -
[13]
Huzzah Federation, CVA and NOS never claimed to completley remove threats from their space, nor that a regular patrol would remove all pirate threats.
That is impossible to do.
And why would we want too? Having things to shoot come to you is a lot easier than hunting stuff.
The simple rules are don't shoot neutrals, and keep an eye on the intel channels. NBSI and shoot reds are just one way of enforcing your groups rules of engagement. We can't completely enforce them, and no alliance can. The regularity of blue on blue incidents proves that. We can mitigae them, and make sure that the damge done is not unreasonable or unbalance. Pirates had a habit of leaving our space on the clone express (just like we did, but thats PVP for you).
And as far as allowing n00bs into our space, we did. We let them wander round, we let them see and do what they pease. We recruited them. We helped them go forward in eve. They learn PVP, PVE, and how not to die. For free, without preconditions further than don't shoot blue/neutrals.
True altruism can confuse the selfish. We have a different world view to yours, and I admit, I don't understand yours (IE the non free space/NBSI splaystyle) either. Why would we help people without getting something in return? Becasue we already had what we wanted, and more to boot. So we shared (and still do, even though I'm not in any of those alliances anymore). Christian morals? Maybe. I was a devout roman catholic, and I still use christian teaching as my moral compass.
I wonder whhere the pirate hordes take their morals from?
++++++++++++++++++++
Founder member of the Huzzah Federation.
Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence
Widowmakers director
Fear my kneepads of allure!
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:21:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Baun
I take it the reemergence of CFS under a new name and with shiny stations prompted this then?
lol.. well its primarily the regurgitation of the same old lies by new players that don't know any better...and perpetuated by the old players that should know better.
Thats the catalyser for this thread.
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EnglishBob
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:21:00 -
[15]
Free Hat!
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Angry Dan
Caldari
Widowmakers
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:23:00 -
[16]
You are right though, maintaining a standings list is a *****. NBSI doens't make it any easier, at least not on the allaince level. I know, I did it, and boy it sucks.
++++++++++++++++++++
Founder member of the Huzzah Federation.
Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence
Widowmakers director
Fear my kneepads of allure!
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Angry Dan
True altruism can confuse the selfish. We have a different world view to yours, and I admit, I don't understand yours (IE the non free space/NBSI splaystyle) either. Why would we help people without getting something in return?
.. but thats my point.. you are not actually helping anybody but yourselves in furthering your own amusement.
You aren't teaching anybody about the real 0.0.
And you don't need free space to teach players how to pvp.. e.g pvp training corps.
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Angry Dan
NBSI doens't make it any easier, at least not on the allaince level. I know, I did it, and boy it sucks.
errr... sorry to burst your bubble but keeping an NBSI standings list is easy peasy.. you have a few friends and thats it... you shoot the rest.
It doent get any simpler.
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Sli'co Scoser
Gallente
Luna Tech Manufacturing Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:34:00 -
[19]
So, in other words, to go to 0.0, I should:
1. Join an Alliance.
2. Pay out the ass to an Alliance to be blued so I can come and play in their space.
3. Try to sneak into 0.0 and get WTFPWNed by an NBSI camp.
4. Stay in Empire and carebear forever.
5. Quit the game.
It'll probably come down to 1 in the end for me, but maybe I want to go play in a "free space" 0.0 region and get a feel for the place before I turn into a completely ruthless NBSI gankmobile. I accept the dangers of 0.0, but maybe I'd like to lessen the number of people seeking my instant death.
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Angry Dan
Caldari
Widowmakers
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:36:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Nez Perces
Originally by: Angry Dan
True altruism can confuse the selfish. We have a different world view to yours, and I admit, I don't understand yours (IE the non free space/NBSI splaystyle) either. Why would we help people without getting something in return?
.. but thats my point.. you are not actually helping anybody but yourselves in furthering your own amusement.
You aren't teaching anybody about the real 0.0.
And you don't need free space to teach players how to pvp.. e.g pvp training corps.
You don't need corps, just a public channel and a gang. (R3 Anti Piracy anyone?, every PVP event)
And believe me, it is not fun to have to hold peoples hands and answer **** stupid questions 23/7. We do it because people did it for us. Paying bakc the community, karma if you like. And usually you cna get it back. You don't commit an altruistic act get your jollies off it, you od it because one day, you might be the person needing the help (the parable of the good samaritn is what springs to mind here, sorry to bring religion into it, but I can't think of a better example offhand)
You have to be able to trust people. If you can't trust someone you have never met, how can you do sopmething new, like shop in a new shop? You have to trust the new people. It's a risk. And the price can be high. But people are willing to pay it.
++++++++++++++++++++
Founder member of the Huzzah Federation.
Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence
Widowmakers director
Fear my kneepads of allure!
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Angry Dan
Caldari
Widowmakers
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:39:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sli'co Scoser
So, in other words, to go to 0.0, I should:
1. Join an Alliance.
2. Pay out the ass to an Alliance to be blued so I can come and play in their space.
3. Try to sneak into 0.0 and get WTFPWNed by an NBSI camp.
4. Stay in Empire and carebear forever.
5. Quit the game.
It'll probably come down to 1 in the end for me, but maybe I want to go play in a "free space" 0.0 region and get a feel for the place before I turn into a completely ruthless NBSI gankmobile. I accept the dangers of 0.0, but maybe I'd like to lessen the number of people seeking my instant death.
CVA, UK and NOS have a free space policy. But beware the evil doers and na'er-do-wells. Being in an alliance won't insulate you from that anymore than flying in free space areas.
Although CVA and UK have a bigger problem with pirates due to there proximity to empire space. (it's a lot easier to go 5 jumps to pirate there than the 50 to get to the end of Venal of Querious (there examples dumbasses out there)
++++++++++++++++++++
Founder member of the Huzzah Federation.
Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence
Widowmakers director
Fear my kneepads of allure!
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sli'co Scoser
So, in other words, to go to 0.0, I should:
1. Join an Alliance.
2. Pay out the ass to an Alliance to be blued so I can come and play in their space.
3. Try to sneak into 0.0 and get WTFPWNed by an NBSI camp.
4. Stay in Empire and carebear forever.
5. Quit the game.
It'll probably come down to 1 in the end for me, but maybe I want to go play in a "free space" 0.0 region and get a feel for the place before I turn into a completely ruthless NBSI gankmobile. I accept the dangers of 0.0, but maybe I'd like to lessen the number of people seeking my instant death.
This is precisely whats morally bankrupt about the arguments commonly used in favour of free space.
Your view of EVE is extremely limited.
If go to the top of these boards and look at Joshua's map for a few seconds you will find that there are several areas of 0.0 that are currently uncontested, mainly because they are rife with npc stations. Stain, Venal and Syndicate spring to mind.
You can pick up a set of bkmrks for around the 20 mil mark and head out to one of those areas.. where you will find the 0.0 you look for.
You may die on the way there, but take precautions like a cheap ship and adequate cloning and the fear of death will be much reduced.
Try it.. I guarantee you that it will be infinitely more exciting than going to My Little Pony World.
You might even be safer, as these free space zones are invariably magnets for pirates.
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Sinia
Shadow Council
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:40:00 -
[23]
To me, NBSI is just the result of poor discipline and people wanting to play counter-strike in space. Kudos to those alliances that can actually control their pilots into not shooting everything that moves so they can inflate their killcount on the various killboards of EVE.
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Sli'co Scoser
Gallente
Luna Tech Manufacturing Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Angry Dan
CVA, UK and NOS have a free space policy. But beware the evil doers and na'er-do-wells. Being in an alliance won't insulate you from that anymore than flying in free space areas.
Although CVA and UK have a bigger problem with pirates due to there proximity to empire space. (it's a lot easier to go 5 jumps to pirate there than the 50 to get to the end of Venal of Querious (there examples dumbasses out there)
Yeah, I've seen Providence's glowy death dots on the map and know I'd still be in danger if I went there to play in the CVA and UK fun zones, but that's part of the adventure of 0.0 without being in an alliance that religiously guards its borders with NBSI.
But then again, I get to be in 0.0 without being subject to "get your ass to the 867-5309 system to guard our ice miners against the JENNY alliance" type orders.
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Pezzle
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:48:00 -
[25]
Mr Perces,
How are you defining 'free space'?
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:52:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Nez Perces on 03/11/2006 16:53:16
Originally by: Pezzle
How are you defining 'free space'?
good question..
the definition of free space that has been knocking around since the game began is arbitrary but can be summed up adequately by the following:
"An area of 0.0 where access is not limited by allegiance to the host group. Access to free space is usually not actually free and fees are payable upon docking to the stations belonging to the host alliance, unless there are npc stations present there."
.. thas what springs to mind atm, unless you yourself have some other more pertinent definition.
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Wilfan Ret'nub
Singularity.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:53:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Wilfan Ret''nub on 03/11/2006 16:53:28
Originally by: Nez Perces
If go to the top of these boards and look at Joshua's map for a few seconds you will find that there are several areas of 0.0 that are currently uncontested, mainly because they are rife with npc stations. Stain, Venal and Syndicate spring to mind.
Stain used to be claimed by SE/SA and much of the Syndicate by Goonswarm. On the other hand, Greater Wildlands is mostly NPC owned, yet claimed by an alliance.
Stain, Venal and Syndicate are uncontested because current dwellers can't be bothered with the forum wars. Noobs willl still get "brutally podded" by the locals - even more frequently than in most Alliance claimed space.
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No ISK, no fun |
Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub
Stain, Venal and Syndicate are uncontested because current dwellers can't be bothered with the forum wars. Noobs willl still get "brutally podded" by the locals - even more frequently than in most Alliance claimed space.
... yeah I know you don't want a stream of "newbies" hanging around your nice npc regions, but despite anything you say its not that bad... and can be pretty quiet at certain times of the day.
NPC regions, particularly those that register as uncontested are not too difficult to get into or out of.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:57:00 -
[29]
We already have "free space". It's also known as "lowsec", and it illustrates nicely what happens when you allow people to act however they like without serious consequences. Have fun.
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kincajou niten
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.03 17:00:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nez Perces
...it will be infinitely more exciting than going to My Little Pony World.
Originally by: Nez Perces
You might even be safer, as these free space zones are invariably magnets for pirates.
These two are kind of counter-arguments, aren't they? So where a newbie player can teach the basics of 0.0 survival, being in a corp in safe region of big alliance guarded by NBSI, or in "space zones" that "are invariably magnets for pirates"? :-)
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