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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15673
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 10:04:56 -
[1] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Ever hear the saying, "Mind your own business?" Or, in this world of the Duly Entitled, are you queen?
Oh. Incursions are content created by CCP. It is their game after all. I guess they can create content, too, if they WANT to.
This thread looks like it's caught a lot of folks that don't have enough to do. you sound very bitter whats the crack?
As was said, he doesn't want to lose the cash cow.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15674
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Posted - 2015.04.27 13:24:13 -
[2] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:If I remember correctly it was said, the most liquid income for individual players comes from nullsec ratting ... I don't think Incursions are a big issue, especially as there is a limited supply of them in highsec.
You make less ratting in null than you do in high sec incursions. A lot less.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15675
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Posted - 2015.04.27 13:33:48 -
[3] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:take Deklin for example that is safer than hisec
Please provide any evidence that this is the case. Just a quick glance at the KB shows that ratting ship losses dwarf any high sec mission/incursion area despite the far higher population of highsec.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15678
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Posted - 2015.04.27 13:36:28 -
[4] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.
Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions.
Station trading does come with risk.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15678
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Posted - 2015.04.27 13:39:18 -
[5] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:take Deklin for example that is safer than hisec Please provide any evidence that this is the case. Just a quick glance at the KB shows that ratting ship losses dwarf any high sec mission/incursion area despite the far higher population of highsec. Already proved that in another thread, despite certain removals from that thread.
You proved nothing. Hundreds of losses in null vs a dosen in highsec mission areas. The argument the highsec is more dangerous is a lie.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15682
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Posted - 2015.04.27 17:22:04 -
[6] - Quote
Jarod Garamonde wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. Highsec players deserve content, too, you know.... And it's not even like there's no risk. Incursions aren't easy at any level.
Yea they are. All you need is a few logi and a smattering of battleships and a loki none of which are hard to fly. By all means keep the content is the payout that is the problem.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15684
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Posted - 2015.04.27 17:36:19 -
[7] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms.
Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec?
As for that "#1 source of isk" tidbit you are quoting it wrong. While null activities inject the most isk income levels for ratting is far below that of incursions. An incursion pilot will earn upwards of twice as much as your average anom ratter in null.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15684
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Posted - 2015.04.27 18:12:13 -
[8] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Somehow you also have to lose that mad isk no? Not that it's a balancing factor for the current income but what do people do with all those ISK beside buy another incursion boat after they managed to lose one? After the 800 ish mill for their PLEX and a let's say 400 mill as "insurance policy" in case they lose a boat, what do people spend all that on?
I have often wondered that myself. Only answer I have is there are people who suffer from dragon curse.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15684
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Posted - 2015.04.27 18:15:27 -
[9] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
And it is perfectly possible and acceptable for any pilot to engage in these activities. So again I am not sure what the issue is. If you want to suckle on the teet you only need to open your mouth. Elsewise its nothing but whining. If you want to live in 0.0 and only play in 0.0 cool, not everything is fair in EVE. Nothing at all stopping you from heading to HS every now and then to milk the cow. Seems like a bad case of entitlement to me.
The problem is that you are not getting rewarded for taking on more risk and effort. If CCP wants smaller corps and alliances out in nullsec then they are going to have to make it worth moving out there.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15690
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Posted - 2015.04.27 21:18:06 -
[10] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:I challenge CCP to put a moratorium on all hisec incursions for 3 months, and only allow lowsec and nullsec incursions. Then see how many of these hisec incursion runners have the balls to man up and run incursion in orher areas.
Just reduce the payouts to 60mil/hr and watch all of these content lovers rant and rave over the loss of their isk printers.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15697
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Posted - 2015.04.28 02:15:39 -
[11] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: You even try to claim that the fact null incursions travel is a reason to not look at them in null, yet high incursions travelling is irrelevant. Sure it's less an issue, but still incursions don't occur in the same high sec constellation constantly also.
You have access to all of highsec so all of its incursions. What do you think is going to happen if N3 or PL try to run an incursion in Dek?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15697
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Posted - 2015.04.28 02:22:51 -
[12] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote: My recommendation to anyone that believes incursions are too profitable is that they start a gank campaign.
Good luck finding 100+ gankers who are wiling to blow these things up at a massive loss.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15698
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Posted - 2015.04.28 04:11:43 -
[13] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Maybe something is being missed here but why the fixation on carriers? Why do they have some sort of increased income expectation to you?
Sheer firepower they can produce.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: By that logic should supercarriers be the ultimate ratting machines?
They used to be but CCP nerfed them several years ago.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15698
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Posted - 2015.04.28 04:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:highsec rage
They are changing null sov mechanics and we have as a result abandoned several regions.
Mario Putzo wrote:Besides, if you want to do something about HS incursions and their risk factor then do it. Mechanics exist in this game that allow you to create risk for them.
Easy to say but near impossible to do. You cannot gank these fleets and hope to make anything but a massive loss. They sport hefty tanks, roll with six and up t2 logi ships and pack a lot of firepower. They will rip apart a gank fleet like a knife through butter.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15698
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Posted - 2015.04.28 04:21:45 -
[15] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sounds like my knowledge is outdated then.
Very. Nobody has ratted with supers since the tracking titan nerf and supers lost access to normal drones.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15699
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Posted - 2015.04.28 04:28:22 -
[16] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote: Easy to say but near impossible to do. You cannot gank these fleets and hope to make anything but a massive loss. They sport hefty tanks, roll with six and up t2 logi ships and pack a lot of firepower. They will rip apart a gank fleet like a knife through butter.
LOL the ironing is delicious. "Hey guys HS Incursions aren't Risky enough" Then go do something about it. "Nah man too much risk" what a ******* joke.
There is a difference between risk and near impossible. Suicide ganking tactics do not work against a battleship fleet with logi support.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15699
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Posted - 2015.04.28 04:31:02 -
[17] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Honest question, most incursions sit with the mom exposed for days, leaving a clear course to end the isk making potential while avoiding any more risk of loss than the incursion runners themselves face. Why is this not utilized more often? Also why is ganking usually considered the first thought for a player based solution rather than this.
We did do this for a while but there is not enough profit to justify this tactic long term.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15702
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Posted - 2015.04.28 05:19:52 -
[18] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
Doesn't work.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15711
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Posted - 2015.04.28 11:36:46 -
[19] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:
Sorry, Baltec1, but that's bullshit. You guys are cutting through 800+ship fleets with a lot more DPS and tank on a regular basis, but a 40-ship fleet is a problem because of tanked battleships and logi support? Forget about suicide-ganking, you can't apply the same tactic to everything high-sec, and it's getting tired and lame anyway.
An Incursion Fleet is a 40-man bling fleet that is engaged in PVE combat with NPCs that can rip it apart if anything goes wrong with the logi reps or the tank cycles; how hard can it be to disrupt the fight and cause something to "go wrong"? Forget about your -10.0 suicide-gank alts, their sec status is limiting them (as intended), and they won't be able to get to where the action is. Go with neutral alts. And finally, they're organized as "incursion communities", don't tell me it's hard to insert spies to figure out where they're staging and what they're doing, and to disrupt from the inside.
They've managed to organize themselves enough to do the equivalent of 40-man pick-up raids in other MMO's, and are getting world boss purple-level rewards for it. It's admirable, but nowhere near the level of organization that even medium alliances have achieved. But expecting a simple suicide gank to be effective against them is like expecting an afk-cloaker to completely ruin your nullsec alliance.
Feel free to tell us how you would attack an incursion fleet.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15711
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Posted - 2015.04.28 11:43:01 -
[20] - Quote
Violet Hurst wrote:
Please try to stay with the skirmish, don't go back to the war. LP don't contribute to ISK inflation. It doesn't matter if it's only 1000 pilots who achieve 20% of the current ISK influx. Risk from scripted entities (Sansha NPCs) has nothing to do with ISK springing.
We are not talking about isk inflation we are talking about individual income which is where highsec is out of whack.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15711
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Posted - 2015.04.28 11:45:53 -
[21] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Well actually the secstatus and faction police is the least worry of them all.
Typical.
I too would like to know, just like baltec.
Let's wait for it ..... Call to nerf incursions because its more difficult than ganking Retrievers...
No, they need dealing with because their reward is out of whack.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15713
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Posted - 2015.04.28 11:53:12 -
[22] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:
We are not talking about isk inflation we are talking about individual income which is where highsec is out of whack.
Sorry, but no where in history did nerfing highsec/buffing othersec ... ... actually make people leave it.
[/quote]
Dont care about people with no interest in taking any risk. If CCP are going to make this new sov to work then they have to deal all areas of space. Fozziesov is going to require people to live in null to hold space so the need to make it worth living out there. Right now highsec offers better reward so that needs to change or fozziesov will fail.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15713
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Posted - 2015.04.28 11:55:29 -
[23] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Call to nerf Incursions because it hurts their feelings that people who they despise can have fun and they find it too hard to stop them from having that fun, so the only way is to keep calling for it to be nerfed...
Why would I go to null sov when I can earn twice as much isk in highsec for very little risk and effort?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15715
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Posted - 2015.04.28 12:01:03 -
[24] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
And here is the reason, they hate it that people can have fun in making themselves space rich and they cannot get at them without effort, its all about frustration...
Try reading what people say before responding, I said nothing of the sort.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15715
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Posted - 2015.04.28 12:04:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Because those figures are wrong and another poster already proved just how few people can efficiently run incursions.
Nobody has posted any facts here to back up your argument. Average income from anoms is 60 mil/hr, incursion income of 120 mil/hr is not unrealistic.
Dracvlad wrote: But why are you getting so uptight, soon you will have the new structures that will enable you to have mission agants in null sec, that's great news for you guys isn't it?
We have no details yet on this system.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15718
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Posted - 2015.04.28 12:10:41 -
[26] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Your figures are totally wrong, you are understating the anoms by a major amount, why do you keep lying all the time?
You dont leave highsec and have never run anoms in dek. Yet you are calling the people who have figured out how to squeeze the most isk out of every activity a liar?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15721
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Posted - 2015.04.28 12:20:45 -
[27] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
I have run anoms in 0.0 and got a lot more than 60m an hours, if that is squeezing the most ISK out of that activity then you are either a fool or a liar, I was doing 110m an hour in Cobalt Edge and that ignored the selling on of escalations...
No you weren't.
Provide the ship and fit please.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15722
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Posted - 2015.04.28 12:35:41 -
[28] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Wait, are we really comparing afktar income to a fleet operation of multiple billions of battleships?
Really?
Reaaaaaaaally?
Also, one can make 200m/hour clean in a mere C3 with yourself and an alt...incursions...pfffffft
Its a more realistic comparison. If we go for top end income for both then we have 180-200 mil/hr from highsec incursions vs 90 mil/hr from anoms. You can almost get the same income from highsec level 3 missions as anoms...
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15722
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Posted - 2015.04.28 12:51:11 -
[29] - Quote
u3pog wrote:Station traders make billion of ISK with 0% risk
This is a myth. Station trading is a pvp activity and as has been shown many times people will take massive losses in this playing that game.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15722
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Posted - 2015.04.28 12:55:17 -
[30] - Quote
Infrequent wrote:This entire thread is a joke, yes let's nerf something that's constantly generating ample content for a large part of the eve player base while actually requiring more organization and coordination than a decent amount of the other content avenues in Eve. Have you actually looked into the organization required to make incursions run smoothly?
Yes and it is far less than is required for a bog standard fleet like harpy fleet or domi fleet.
Infrequent wrote: Have you compared them to the early days when they first came around? Do you know of the risks, the requirements, the time investment required to get a good return? Do you know how easy it is to be alpha'd of the field in the sites that are actually worth the effort?
I did incursions the other week in a sheild fitted nano mega and our fleet had a bog standard zealot, the risk of being alpha'ed doesn't exist.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15725
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:02:38 -
[31] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Can anyone else picture Dracvlad behind his keyboard, scrambling through Battleclinic, trying to find something plausible to claim as a way to kill incursion players? At this moment I am looking at one of the fits for the Confessor which still works and I can get a T2 Expanded Probe launcher on it now with the same damage as I had before, yikes, but the 10mn Afterburner fit has been nuked which is a good thing... Battleclinic, never use it... Its very evident to me what you can do to attack Incursion runners, but it is not easy, it require effort and patience, its a major step up from ganking a retriever. A lot of the methods have been detailed in this thread, the main issue is that the target is limited in numbers and within tightly controlled groups, war dec's don't really work, unless your target has a brain fart, or the FC has one too, so its ganks, which need to be very well done or getting people into the incursion with logi and letting them die. Because the communities are tight knit it takes effort to infiltrate and its a busted flush after one use. It is difficult but doable if you have the skill, will and the resources to do it, baltec1 talked about it and they found it too risky in terms of failure and that it was difficult to set up, so they decided to do other things. And here is the issue, because it takes too much effort for you people you call for a nerf instead.
Game imbalances are not fixed by telling people to go gank them at a massive loss.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15727
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:12:09 -
[32] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: You need to put time and effort into it, its not like rolling up to a retreiver with a Venture, scan it for tank then warp the catalysts in, but then again it shouldn't be like that should it?
You're spinning, and it's obvious to everyone here. List some. I don't care how much "time" or "effort" you claim it has, list some. [edit: Oh, and it's really funny to see someone who defends dec dodging with his every breath talk about time or effort, by the way. You are hoping for something that won't happen. Some for of disruption have already been listed in this very thread tho. Ganks are possible but with a higher barrier of entry because your target are either small sig mobile logi cruisers or actually tanked BS. You have to plan for the worst case scenario every time as opposed to barge or freighter ganks where you can in the vast majority of case forgo any potential logi helping your target. Alpha is the name of the game but the setup is high. Another one is infiltration. Getting inside most of the community is not all that hard. The issue is you burn yourself on the first bad move you do unless you have a really good excuse. Purple on purple shooting will usually get you blacklisted real fast because most FC will just ask you why you don't run PvE content with safety on green now. I've seen people CONCORD themself with safety reds and let me tell you it's absolutely funny how much heat they get for it. Best one was logi's drone on the FC. Your best bet if you want to cause more disruption with infiltration would technically be logi work in a basilisk/guardian. HQ Otuni spawn are pretty much the only time people expect to risk losing their ship (low probability but if it happens, it's usually on those spawns). The key point is of course to "mess up" and not cap feed the target. IMPORTANT: The chance of this working as still EXTREMELY low because you should not be the only possible cap feed, the ship should still receive some raw reps even if his hardeners got shutdown, his pasive regen between neut cycles might let him cycle his invulns and the more bling your fleet is, the less time sanshas have to burn him down. Results!!! 1- It works but require more effort than most people seem to be willing to put into it. Not sure why but it is what it is. 2- Yeah sure, let's ask people to chain train incursion running characters to get over the black listing. It's not stupid at all!!! /sarcasm 3- You might pull it off but that's like playing craps and hoping you will win that bet requiring all results to be rolled... Analysis of results : Disturbing a fleet of logi supported BS is hard. News at 11.
You cant gank a battleship fleet.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15728
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:29:24 -
[33] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:
You cant gank a battleship fleet.
I never said you could gank the fleet. The recent smartbomb "event" demonstrated it. That still does nto mean you can't at least have an impact on it's members. You definitely won't stop them dead in the water but you can slow them down of cut their income. If they lose a few bling ship in a row, you can bet some people will start to get away from the most efficient fit for tankier ones because even if they are raking major dough, they still hate losing ships while doing it. Every mods they swap for more tank if an efficiency mod they lose for making that sweet 200+ mill isk/hours. Everybody want their vindi with 2 webs but the pilot might fly only one with an extenders if 4 ship has been killed recently with the gankers still in systems. If you do enough damage, you might even afk cloak them a bit. I say again. You will not stop them. Not under the current rules of the game. If that is your goal, the required amount of effort is more than likely WAY too high to be worth it. Kaarous was asking for way to disrupt them, I provided just that and even said they were mostly not very effective because that's how things are.
You wont even scratch them while you lose tens of billions trying to kill them.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15728
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:32:28 -
[34] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Good god man you are after one of the bling fitted BS...
Which not only sports a large tank but is supported by logistics and a fleet that will open fire back.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15728
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:34:01 -
[35] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Well, it's true it got kinda out of hand, back when ISBOXER wasn't banned I was doing incursions with 5 alts, I was earning about 750 mil/hour.
Made more than 100 billion isk in a few months.
Sniff.
You can still do that.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15730
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Posted - 2015.04.28 13:55:52 -
[36] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Well, it's true it got kinda out of hand, back when ISBOXER wasn't banned I was doing incursions with 5 alts, I was earning about 750 mil/hour.
Made more than 100 billion isk in a few months.
Sniff. You can still do that. And I wasn't even the biggest playa in the community, I knew guys who were doing incursions with like 10 alts, I knew a guy who was farming vanguards with his own fleet. Imagine that isk.
There are still people running ISboxer 20 man incusion fleets.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15731
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Posted - 2015.04.28 15:05:39 -
[37] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: No. Inflation is a bad thing, and we need less of it, not vastly more.
The simple fact of the matter is that the safest space in the game should not as lucrative as incursions are. The end. Rant about the rest of it all you like, that is an absolute truth.
Why shouldn't it be? If CCP didn't like it, why buff them 6 months ago. Clearly CCP feels Incursions are fine as they are, the only folks who seem opposed to them are the same folks who show up in every "Whaaa HS Risk/Reward" whinathon.
Risk/Reward is not a balance mechanic, and it never has been. Its a placebo.[/quote]
CCP were fine with the original FW mechanics. They were also fine with tech moons and the original payouts of incursions. Time after time CCP have been forced to make changes when we started to abuse them. The same people are telling everyone that high sec pve is too lucrative compared to the rest of EVE.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 17:33:29 -
[38] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:All those thousands of Supercaps, the proliferation of which ruined nullsec.
I'll wager that a larger proportion of those were funded by running incursions. Sorry I think you are wrong, I would wager that the majority of Supers and Titans are owned by people who are in the alliances that directly controlled the Tech during the critical period of its imbalance, and while a significant number of supers may have been funded by Incursions its is totally dwarfed by those funded by moon goo enriched alliances... Its the Technicium imbalance that screwed up Eve, Incursions are the equivalent of peeing in a rain storm...
Most of our corps caps were bought after tech was nerfed and by the pilots not by the corp. My own 7 bil dread and 2.3 bil megathron were entirely funded from highsec level 4 missions. No bat cap was funded via tech money, that is not what it was used for.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15734
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Posted - 2015.04.28 17:37:18 -
[39] - Quote
Danalee wrote:Thread is about HISEC incursions. Please stop trolling/derailing or I'll be forced to report you. D.
There is no derailing here. Highsec incursions have an impact outside of highsec.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15736
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Posted - 2015.04.28 17:50:10 -
[40] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
And I knew you would say something like that, the imbalance created such an advantage in terms of cash reserves that it created the capital assets that you have now by its affect, you sure don't have much of a strategic overview of such matters do you baltec1, you talk like a grunt.
Incursion runners did of course fund major purchases with these funds, that is for certain, especially with ISboxer, but it pales into insignificance compared to the imbalance that has really screwed up the game.
Danalee even the pet ISD would not see that as out of context, but be a child if you must...
Back when we had the tech monopoly we did not have the largest super fleet. So, how exactly did the tech monopoly fund their even bigger super fleet?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.28 17:51:56 -
[41] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
What issue might that be? I am curious as to this phantom issue everyone keeps talking about. Nothing forces you to do incursions, nothing stops you.
Thats the problem. Why would we spend more isk, time, effort and risk so much more in null when we can earn twice as much in highsec and enjoy the protection of concord?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2015.04.28 17:59:25 -
[42] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
What issue might that be? I am curious as to this phantom issue everyone keeps talking about. Nothing forces you to do incursions, nothing stops you.
Thats the problem. Why would we spend more isk, time, effort and risk so much more in null when we can earn twice as much in highsec and enjoy the protection of concord? Well "soon" you would because you want your index to be high to help defend your magic wand assets from fast capping. I'm not saying it's a good reason but it will technically be one "soon"...
Hence the need to make it worth line members time to be out in null doing these activities.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.28 18:00:26 -
[43] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
What issue might that be? I am curious as to this phantom issue everyone keeps talking about. Nothing forces you to do incursions, nothing stops you.
Thats the problem. Why would we spend more isk, time, effort and risk so much more in null when we can earn twice as much in highsec and enjoy the protection of concord? Then go do incursions, in HS there is literally nothing stopping you. Its a choice you are free to make, there is no mechanic preventing you from joining in, other than the limited number of pilots incursion groups use. I mean less than 1% of the player base is capable of milking these things at any one time. WOE IS US THE IMBALANCE GUYS THE IMBALANCE, if anything they should be opened up to even more people not just an average of 23.3 pilots per site. Whine more son.
We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.28 18:04:16 -
[44] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null. You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient.
We have no info so right now we will continue to hammer home the message that fozziesov will fail if the rewards are not there.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.28 18:18:43 -
[45] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
"We don't know anything concrete, so instead of offering suggestion in F+I to improve the new NS, Im going to whine in a thread opposed to HS Incursions"
Spoke to the devs directly and have been posting what we would need for years now in all areas of relevance.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.28 21:08:14 -
[46] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: So to prove that point they will go destroy all the IHUB's in Provi
Any potential burning of provi (one of the most poor areas of null) has literally nothing at all to do with the subject of this thread.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.29 17:27:42 -
[47] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
The drone alloys caused the proliferation of supers.
That allowed them to be built easier in that region, but the question of being able to buy easily is also part of the equations and yes Incursions had their part in this, but its small compared to the number of supers and titans that ended up in the hands of the alliances that were involved in the Tech agreement, do people understand the concept of developing your asset base to further reinforce your success, well obviously not. But if an alliance replaces all your ship losses with Tech funded SRP then you have more ISK to buy better things don't you, simple maths basically. Incursions allowed some smaller entities to gain the ISK to buy capitals, nothing more than that.
Yet again.
We held almost all the tech moons yet we had the smallest supercap fleet for the entire time that the tech flowed. WN steamrolled the old NC with their supercaps and the only reason they didn't headshot VFK was because at the time TIDI wasn't in place and we rapecaged our own staging system and sacrificed tens of thousands of subcaps. If TIDI had been in place back then we would have lost. WN had no tech moons.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.29 17:30:29 -
[48] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Its still limited no matter how you try to spin it, it is not the largest faucet by any means, and is essentially soft capped. So basically your entire whine is that some folks are making a bunch of ISK more than others. Big deal. Go do them if you want, nothing prevents you from doing them, and nothing forces you to do them. The number of of folks doing them vs others doing other things is irrelevant, its a system that is designed to be capable of only putting so much isk into the economy, where as bounties are limitless, and can be done by anyone, thus everything you have written is irrelevant. Incursions can only generate isk to a cap, if it is capped it isn't a faucet, it is a well. and once the well runs out, you have to wait for it to refill.
Anoms also have a cap. We still have the situation where the safest area of space is more rewarding than the most dangerous.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.29 17:51:13 -
[49] - Quote
Lendren wrote:People follow the path of least resistance for success. There isn't anything wrong with making isk in mission environments because the things you want to spend that isk on are generated by activities in low/null/wh and cannot be generated in hi sec. It's not like hi sec incursions drop sleeper salvage, deadspace loot or Arkonor/Bisot or moon goo or anything else you actually need to create the vast quantities of ships/mods/rigs/ammo consumed by the EVE populace at large.
There is everything wrong with expending more effort and taking on more risk for less reward. Why exactly would anyone want to move out to null if they can make more in highsec?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.29 18:01:51 -
[50] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Which is irrelevant because nothing in this game has ever been balanced through this crutch you call risk/reward. It has always been balanced relative to ones ability to live and operate in that region.
Wrong. Originally null was hands down the best best isk, even via belt ratting. CCP broke this with level 4s and over the years it has become more and more broken due to a mix of ever higher rewards from highsec activities and inflation. Its about time they fix it.
Mario Putzo wrote: HS gets the monopoly on PVE. NS gets the monopoly on PVP.
Wrong, High sec gets safety while nullsec gets the higher reward. Otherwise there is no reason to ever leave highsec. Different gameplay metrics, represented distinctly in different gameplay regions.
Mario Putzo wrote: NS can comfortably afford to live/thrive in its environment, HS can comfortably afford to live/thrive in its.
NS is mostly all but abandoned with most systems seen as worthless, so again you are wrong.
Mario Putzo wrote: HS requires much more isk investment for PVP, wardecs, ganking. NS does not need these things
When was the last time you spent several trillion defending your highsec system?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.29 21:33:14 -
[51] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Sadly for you I was around at the time, the Tech agreement was between you the CFC, NCDOT and their allies Evoke and PL, White Noise and Raiden may have had moons at the point before they collapsed, but I was not aware of them being in teh Tech agreement, bu might have been, but WN collapsed before the Titan tracking nerf and Raiden after. The ending of the Tech agreement was really the Tribute war, which was some time after the fall of WN. I guess you were knitting or something else during that period?
Fighting WN as part of GSF.
See, when you lie about things like this it will come back to bite you in arse. I was part of these events and what you are spouting is nothing but rubbish. The vast bulk of the 20,000 supers out there were not built using tech money. We didn't even have enough dreads to form a full fleet back then.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.29 21:46:48 -
[52] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: The game is already full of stupid stuff where an alt to make X is the best way to do something. Why are you surprised about it being like that about income? Do you really expect them to fix this?
They are going to have to now that sov is tied to people actually using their space.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.29 21:58:29 -
[53] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
They don't have to as long as some people are "tryhard" enough to keep SOV to their name.
Which given the fact that most null space currently abandoned isn't going to happen.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 04:30:30 -
[54] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
They don't have to as long as some people are "tryhard" enough to keep SOV to their name.
Which given the fact that most null space currently abandoned isn't going to happen. Just wait for the SOV change. You know at least the "I mined it for free" crowd will give it a shot.
Wont work if people dont move out there and people wont move out there if there is no reward for doing so.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 13:31:24 -
[55] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Well facts show this is just plain wrong.
NA - ~10K peak renters PBLRD- ~4K peak renters BOT - ~5K peak renters X.W.X - ~5K peak renters
~24K renters over the past 2 years CHOSE to enter into Sov NS, because the barriers were removed for them. These 24K people could have just as easily stayed in HS and got better rewards, but they didn't they chose to enter into NS, for whatever reason.
And all of them idiots.
We have scammed literally tens of thousands with our recruitment over the last few years, so using your logic giving me 500 mil to join bat country and all your ships to transport out to us is a great idea.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 13:34:10 -
[56] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: You really are trying so hard, 20,000 supers at that point of the game, I think not...,
I didnt say that, you cant even quote me right.
Dracvlad wrote: second thing is the Tech imbalance set you guys up so well that you went from having hardly any Supers and Titans to having the most in the game.
We overtook our enemies supercap advantage two years after tech was nerfed.
Dracvlad wrote: You can pretend that the Tech imbalance had no impact, but that set you guys up to make that transition.
It didn't have an impact on our super numbers because it wasn't spent on them.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:42:28 -
[57] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Whats your opinion on the other ~20K folks who have entered into NS in the last couple years, the ones who didn't pay to live in someones castle? Are they idiots too? Or the ones who more recently join the likes of Pandemic Horde, and Karmafleet, are they also idiots?
They don't make their isk in null.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:48:57 -
[58] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Whats your opinion on the other ~20K folks who have entered into NS in the last couple years, the ones who didn't pay to live in someones castle? Are they idiots too? Or the ones who more recently join the likes of Pandemic Horde, and Karmafleet, are they also idiots?
They don't make their isk in null. source please.
GSF wiki and forum guides on how to make isk.
Also the fact that most of nullsec is empty and unused.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:51:40 -
[59] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Nodody cares where they make their ISK as long as they are willing to burn it on keeping some systems to their name.
If they dont live in null sov then fozziesov wont work. It needs people to live in sov space so yes, it does matter where they make their isk.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:57:16 -
[60] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?
Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack.
If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 14:58:05 -
[61] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Not looking for an isk making guide, im asking for this source that shows BNI and others make their ISK outside of NS. You do have a source for that right? Otherwise, folks might think you are talking out your ass.
The fact that null sov is mostly empty and unused.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 16:21:33 -
[62] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?
Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack. If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov. You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit? Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game?
We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 16:30:54 -
[63] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 16:36:50 -
[64] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?
Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack. If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov. You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit? Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game? We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there. Will you keep burning it every few weeks to be sure to "teach" idiots how little that space is worth?
We have put it to the torch 8 times now. Do you honestly think we wont in the future? It will be easier than ever before if people are not living in their space. So again, yes it will matter where your line members are making their isk.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.04.30 16:56:28 -
[65] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon...
Where is this proof? So far the only evidence we have is that they make twice as much isk per pilot as activities in more hostile space.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.05.01 04:18:02 -
[66] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system.
Not only has the price of everything doubled but inflation means that the value of running anoms has gone down due to the way the payouts are handled. Bounty based rewards do not rise with inflation while LP based rewards do. This is why we now find level 3 missions are on par with anom ratting.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.05.01 04:41:22 -
[67] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
The don't do anoms
That is the primary pve activity in sov space. Glad you are finally realising the problem
Mario Putzo wrote: There is nothing stopping you from going to HS to earn better ISK
Thats the problem, we already are going to highsec and abandoning null.
Mario Putzo wrote: Inflation has 0 impact on EVE as a whole
Everything costs a lot more than it used to while peoples income via bounties has not changed. Belt ratting went from good isk to worthless. Nobody rats in belts anymore which shows that inflation does have a negative impact on the game.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.05.01 10:49:25 -
[68] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Anoms/Belt ratting are not the only sources of ISK Go run Pirate L4s and make some Dank ISK selling implants or something.
There are no level 4s in sov null.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.05.01 10:50:43 -
[69] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: They are if you use a several billion ship in highsec blitzing only the best LP available and turning down slow missions vs a normal T2 fit in Null running not the best anoms. They aren't if you take the average lvl 3 income.
800 mil, which is more than half the cost of a carrier which is needed to hit the best anom income.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.05.01 16:18:40 -
[70] - Quote
Inora Sera wrote:So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
So what do the "60 haters" get out of this?
Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.05.01 16:35:13 -
[71] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Actions speak louder than words.
Lets take a closer look at CCPs actions over the last year shall we?
Industry revamp.
They nerfed high sec industry and buffed nullsec industry. Null industry is now more rewarding than in highsec which was CCPs goal, stating that people who do industry in null expend more effort, cost, time and risk therefore should see greater rewards.
Refining update. CCP nerfed highsec refining and buffed null sec refining. Again, stating that more risk, effort and cost should yeild more reward.
Ore Changes. CCP have worked on ore with the goal of making nullsec mining more rewarding than in highsec, again stating that people who take more more risk, effort and cost should be rewarded.
Looking further back we see PI gives morereward in null than highsec as does exploration. Are we seeing a pattern yet?
CCP are slowly revamping the whole game so that you get more reward for greater risk/effort/cost. So, everything you have said about risk/reward is just flat out wrong.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.05.01 16:37:09 -
[72] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The TECH imbalance created 0 ISK unless someone found a way to sell to NPC buy orders...
Best part of the tech argument is that they have no idea how much a tech moon tower actually made, they just assume it was infinite.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.05.01 17:21:52 -
[73] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Dracvlad wrote: I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"
Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto.
And the irony is we have forced CCP to close so many game imbalances and exploits we have lost count.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.05.01 17:56:10 -
[74] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Dracvlad wrote: I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"
Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto. And the irony is we have forced CCP to close so many game imbalances and exploits we have lost count. Fun fact, people were complaining about Tech bottleneck back in 2010, while GSF was busy being Kartooned. Before that people complained about Dyspro bottleneck. But ya it was Goons that got it changed not the other 350K people outside the CFC saying, hey wait a minute this is fucky. How much isk does an ego trip cost now a days? Im sure it was Goons who got Tech buffed in the first place to right. Exposing the Dyspro Dupers prior to the rebalance of T2 build requirements. I imagine the Mittani himself spoke directly with Hilmar and made him an offer he couldn't refuse, or something like that? (CCP used to use these little things as content drivers, until they realized artificial content creation was lame compared to letting the players make their own reasons)
We were the ones that went and took almost all of them and then said "we warned you now nerf us". Thats the difference between us and you. You are willing to keep game imbalances when you make personal gain. We tell CCP its broken then force it to be fixed. As you said, we are here to destroy your game not the game.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.05.01 18:51:55 -
[75] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Sitting on them when they were changed does not equate to being responsible for getting them changed.
Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you, only thing any off you have said is that they make more isk than something else, which is basically Whaaa they make more isk than me...lots of things are like that in EVE. EVE isn't fair and not everything is equal, and there is nothing stopping you from doing them yourself, it is not out of reach for anyone, it is not limited to only certain people. Ergo there is no imbalance, except inside your own head.
TECH however was imbalanced because of its requirements in building, and its disproportionate regional seeding, it was heavily limited in accessibility, not even remotely the same thing.
Highsec has access to a huge isk printing machine that is incursions that people in dek do not. Said incursions can be run in highsec more or less all day every day while in dek they pop up a few times a year. Said incursions provide twice as much isk as the very best income possible in dek which having none of the risks, effort or even cost.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.05.01 21:09:00 -
[76] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:And yet, null still sucks.
At least its now being worked on now that we have won dominion.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15792
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Posted - 2015.05.01 21:12:23 -
[77] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You were already told in this very thread what to do if it was as imbalanced as you say. You already know the drill. Get overwhelming control over it and then tell CCP to nerf you.
Form 3+ fleet for every incursion and show them how much it break the game when 120+ player from null sec make that much ISK. Since incursion also have a rather low risk level, there is no problem for an entity recognized for it's ability to get things rolling with unmatched efficiency.
Show us, glorious Imperium, how broken it is.
Very
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15815
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Posted - 2015.05.05 04:35:28 -
[78] - Quote
Kaye Kaye wrote:
You do realize this is a game right?
1) Just because you think LOW and NULL are cool places to hang out with your time, many others don't. 2) Those others want fun things to do as well, things THEY think are fun, not you! 3) Let me repeat the 1st one for you.... Not everyone wants to play this game the way you do, but still want to play it. This may mean you don't always get your way; which is nerfing HS to get players to go to unsafe space so you can play with them. 4) THIS IS THE BIG ONE HERE: After only a few months, maybe 6; you have all the money you need to play solo for free and fly any ship you want.
And like every game ever made you need it to be balanced well. If the safest area of space provides the best income why would anyone go to the more dangerous areas that require more effort, investment and risk?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15827
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Posted - 2015.05.06 04:21:55 -
[79] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:
Oh come on it's like you guys don't even care about reality anymore.
11 catas easily takes out boosters and faction fit battleships. There's been a few incursion related ganks lately proving that. Then again those people aren't being lazy and poopooing on the forums they are actually out there doing it. Hell I could do it on my own but it's not worth my time to go to highsec.
Think hitting taking out a HQ fleet's boosters midsite won't cause some issues?
Feel free to try to take out logi supported BS gangs with just 11 catalysts. As for bosters, they are not needed. I tanked incursions in my harpy fit megathron, its not hard.
Telling people to go attack others doesn't fix the problem that highsec PVE pays more than null PVE.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15831
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Posted - 2015.05.06 16:18:28 -
[80] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote: At the end of the day, there are ways to stop something you don't like in this game. "Just do it!"
There aren't ways to stop it. Sure you can spend a few billion trying to gank them at a huge loss but why would people waste their time to do that? Unlike Freighters these ships travel in gangs with large tanks, logi support, often boosters and can open fire right back at you. Ganking doesn't work on actual fleets. Ganking is done for profit, something the people of highsec cant seem to grasp. Killing the mom early was done for a while but ended because again, where is the gain for the people ending it early? Its not fun and it doesn't get you anything worth more than keeping it alive. You cant wardec these people as they are protected by NPC corps and you cant attck them in any normal way due to concord protection.
No, when something is out of whack in terms of reward the only viable way to deal with it is to close the abuse, something CCP has been forced to do many times in the past.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15831
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Posted - 2015.05.06 19:51:39 -
[81] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish.
FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15831
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Posted - 2015.05.06 19:55:37 -
[82] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish. FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash. Apparently, it makes more isk than incursions.
They made several trillion in two days.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15833
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Posted - 2015.05.06 19:56:55 -
[83] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Why aren't people jumping on the incursion billionaire train like they were on the FW billionaire train?
They are.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15840
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Posted - 2015.05.07 03:50:16 -
[84] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Highsec incursions are just a distraction. Remove them and the next target will be level 4 missions and on and on. People are wildly overstating their incursion income over any real length of time. You can do the same income level with 4s without all the waiting and down time. Messing with incursion runners via ganks is even easier than mission runners.
How exactly is it easier to gank them?
ashley Eoner wrote: The ability to rent systems actually helped the little guys get a foothold in nullsec. I know that on my own I was able to afford the rent of a nice little system out in the middle of nowhere with relatively little effort. The downside of this is that the bigger blocks took even more income away from their members by renting out space that their members should of been using to make isk. Not really sure if there's a possible solution that will work on all fronts.
We took no income away from our line members because the space was not used. The space rented was of such low value that you would have been better off running level 3 mission in highsec. A great chunk of these systems would struggle to even compete with level 2 missions they are so poor. The rental empires were nothing but a scam.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15841
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Posted - 2015.05.07 16:37:37 -
[85] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: You can belt rat.
One of the worst activities for isk/hr in the game, even miners laugh at the level of income from belt ratting
Nevyn Auscent wrote: You can run Anoms.
On par with blitzing level 3 missions in highsec
Nevyn Auscent wrote: You can run Sigs.
Income has collapsed due to changes in drops, also cannot host more than 100 per region and if you up that number then the reward from them becomes diluted even further.
Nevyn Auscent wrote: At times there are Null incursions
Not viable as they are removed from important space due to the negative impact on infrastructure and you cannot run them like you can in highsec as you do not have access to any space other than your own.[/quote]
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15844
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Posted - 2015.05.09 03:10:46 -
[86] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:If you actually like Hi Sec, I'm not there to tell you what to do, but if you want it to actually be -safe-, you have to have incentives in other parts of the game, which causes populations to move there, which gives antagonists something interesting to do, which makes the sandbox more vibrant. I'm for a healthy new Eden, and for that to happen, the rewards have to be higher in more dangerous areas of space.
How would you propose then, raising the baseline income in null? First, your framing of the question is complicated by alts. A player can live in nullsec and run incursions in high sec at the same time. Second, the mad ISK/hr and super low risk are only present at the highest level (and even then, Ii'd like to know what the real ISK/hr is when you count travel, converting LP, waiting, etc.--I'm sure it's still good, but probably not as good as the numbers you see thrown around). Warp To Me lose ships regularly, because they take in newbies, have forgiving doctrines, and run smaller sites; ISN don't, because they have veteran pilots in extremely powerful ships running the best. It's a similar problem in L4s: how do you make them doable by a six-month player's single capsuleer in My First Dominix without making it a cakewalk for a six year player running dual Machariels? I think the most elegant solution would have been 1 player, 1 account, but that ship's sailed. I'm glad someone gets it. I'm tired of people asking that the game be balanced according to a play style that relies on multiboxing to work. You can't balance the game to be challenging for someone with 8 accounts without locking out a casual or new player who is limited to one. Anything that is a reasonable income source for one player can be mercilessly exploited through the massive efficiency and risk adjustments available through multiboxing. Just having the ability to multibox a scout/scanner alt would make this game so much easier for me.
Problem we have is that even solo you make more isk in highsec.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15844
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Posted - 2015.05.09 11:43:44 -
[87] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote: The only convincing example I can think of is the near-evacuation of C6 WH space
I'll give you another.
Why would I spend 2.5 billion on a ratting carrier that will die at some point in the not too distant future to make 90mil/hr when I can spent 800 mil on a mach and run level 3 missions and make just as much with next to zero risk ever?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15847
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Posted - 2015.05.10 10:23:38 -
[88] - Quote
Matthew Odunen wrote:
Hey good idea why don't you go and ask your Sov holder for a cut of the moon goo profits they make as your one of the people protecting there sov and fighting for the ability to mine it. and if they say know remember that as said by CCP Fozzie and has gone on record saying "we know how much money you make in null, and it's a **** ton,"
Two points.
Moon income at best is around the same as the income you get from a miner.
Fozzie said null injects more isk, he did not say people in null make the most isk per player.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15857
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Posted - 2015.05.11 02:51:53 -
[89] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote: Yet thousands upon thousands of pilots actually do leave high sec. Explain that for me.
Nullsec is where the stories happen, it sure as hell isn't for the income.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15863
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Posted - 2015.05.11 10:01:12 -
[90] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote: and what stops you from adding risk to incursions? a couple of catas should have enough to blow up incursion logis, then watch as they either scramble to wrap away/attack you or the NPC shred them
There is a reason why gank tactics are not used vs actual fleets with logi support.
In any case the answer to a game imbalance is not to say just have players gank them ineffectively at a huge loss to themselves. After all, that argument could have been used for the tech moon imbalance.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15868
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Posted - 2015.05.11 18:01:52 -
[91] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: Fun fact: ex Northern coalition (the real BFF coalition, not the alliance with the same name), including to some extent CFC didn't grab half of nullsec by running incursions, but by owning Technetium moons. Even with their superb organisation, that would be much harder to accomplish if it wasn't for monopolized moon goo.
Fun fact:
Ice miners earn more per month than a moon tower does.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15874
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Posted - 2015.05.12 02:12:39 -
[92] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:The time investment for incusrions is much higher than any other PVE event in EVE.
So are you now going to ignore the fact that people in null will be spending time taking, upgrading and defending their space in order to have their PVE in the first place?
Highsec incursion pilots have nothing in either time or money invested.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15874
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Posted - 2015.05.12 02:20:40 -
[93] - Quote
Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15874
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Posted - 2015.05.12 02:29:05 -
[94] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions. I thought the implication was selling faction LP being other players through the market.
Ah I thought he was thinking blowing up other people.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15874
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Posted - 2015.05.12 02:55:59 -
[95] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:You seem to really ignore the man hour value.
10 man groups is 150 man hours 40 man groups is 600 man hours.
This is what 113,220(based upon 7,548 pilots and your calculations) man hours looks like.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15877
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Posted - 2015.05.12 10:20:14 -
[96] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Could you tank these missions in a blinged out Golem or a navy BS? If so, wouldn't the payouts be faster?
You would need a very specialized fit to match the warp speed and you would encounter a great many fights when moving gates. Plus why spend 2-3 billion on a ship when a 50 mil expendable frigate can do the job.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15879
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Posted - 2015.05.12 20:41:47 -
[97] - Quote
Miami Jones wrote:
The OP wayyy overstates income from incursions. Eve is not "broken" because of incursion income. Get your math right before posting.
Oh the irony.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15881
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Posted - 2015.05.13 07:40:29 -
[98] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:If high sec Incursions bother you so much; why don't you start suicide tanking them? You do it to freighters that are 100% empty "for the lulz" so why don't you go after them? Afraid of a target that can shoot back?
you cant suicide gank actual BS fleets with logi support
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2015.05.13 16:14:24 -
[99] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:SilentAsTheGrave wrote:If high sec Incursions bother you so much; why don't you start suicide tanking them? You do it to freighters that are 100% empty "for the lulz" so why don't you go after them? Afraid of a target that can shoot back? you cant suicide gank actual BS fleets with logi support You can but at too high a cost. You won't cover your cost unless you really get lucky but there is nothing preventing you from parking tornadoes on the gate to a TCRC and just shooting whoever is the first poor chap to land after completing the previous site.
You will be bankrupt after ganking your second target. Suicide ganking simply is not an answer here not only because you cant pull it off but most importantly you because you don't fix game imbalances by telling other players to just gank others.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15892
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Posted - 2015.05.14 18:00:21 -
[100] - Quote
Kaye Kaye wrote:Same type of junk call outs got Level 5 missions moved to Low Sec, which effectively just removed them from the game.
CCP fixed a bug, they were never meant to be in highsec.
Kaye Kaye wrote: There is NOTHING you will be able to change in this game PERIOD that will get non-PVP players to PVP
We don't want to, what we want is a reason for the people who do pvp to make their isk in null.
Kaye Kaye wrote: I am surprised CCP hasn't learned by now that nerfing High Sec only means less things to do in game and less income for CCP.
Highsec has had very very few nerfs.
Kaye Kaye wrote: Here's a thought.... Why not make more interesting things to do in game that costs a metric ton of ISK to do it - tihngs that don't involved nerfing someones play style, and add value to the game.
So using that argument you are a fan of giving goons back our tech moon monopoly?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15895
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Posted - 2015.05.15 03:45:01 -
[101] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Aivo Dresden wrote:Incursion income with a top notch blinged up fleet is like 150m/hr. That's assuming you get a nice rate on your LP as well. The only concern I have with it, isn't the income, it's the safety and ease. Incursions are run while you watch TV or do something else. The income vs effort / risk ratio is a little off. In non a blinged out fleet I made a little less to far more per hour in WHs AND null with little risk. Although I guess I had to click dscan occasionally in the WH so you could call that extra effort. It's amazing how much isk you can make in null as an individual when your alliance isn't renting out most of the good space. :others: It's kind of sad how people are so obsessive over someone possibly making as much or more isk per hour with less effort or risk. Just enjoy the game you play and stop being so zealous over what someone may or may not be making. If your obsession is too strong to ignore you can always take it on yourself to HTFU and make it harder for those that are the target of your jealously. Nah that would require effort in a sandbox game. I guess you can just continue whining on the forums in the hopes that you don't have to do anything in game. baltec1 wrote: We don't want to, what we want is a reason for the people who do pvp to make their isk in null.
If only that was true. Looking at your post history it's clear you haven't met a highsec nerf you didn't like. People can clearly make good isk in null and only propagandists or clueless/fail players claim otherwise. Your own alliance has corps that have created recruitment pictures galore bragging about the good isk you can make in their space (null). Regardless lets do a little theory crafting here and assume for a moment that your version of null actually exists. A null that pvp players can't make good isk and that the only place to make good isk is in highsec. Your solution to this problem is to... *drumroll*.....nerf highsec. So how does decreasing income in only highsec increase the ticks in null when ratting or running sites? Are you hoping that all the isk made in FW/low and WH somehow vanishes too? Or are those your next line of targets? Only at that point (after you've nerfed highsec low and WHs into the ground) would you see a relative increase in purchasing power from null PVE. CCP has already shown that their data shows nullsec making a LOT of isk (hence the nerfs). So I doubt CCP would buff null income after having just tried to get the isk fountains out there somewhat under control.
CCPs data shows more liqid isk is made in null due to the fact that all the reward for anoms come from bounties. That does not mean null has the best income, said anoms are on par with level 3 income in highsec. That propaganda about how great our great ratting income is in renter space is just that, propaganda. Shock horror, goons are scamming people into paying taxes for useless space. Do you honestly think we would not be using that space ourselves if it was any good?
What I want is a total revamp of income from PVE in all areas of space in the same way that mining, industry, exploration and PI now operate.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15897
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Posted - 2015.05.15 10:10:36 -
[102] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:baltec1 wrote:CCPs data shows more liqid isk is made in null due to the fact that all the reward for anoms come from bounties. That does not mean null has the best income, said anoms are on par with level 3 income in highsec. That propaganda about how great our great ratting income is in renter space is just that, propaganda. Shock horror, goons are scamming people into paying taxes for useless space. Do you honestly think we would not be using that space ourselves if it was any good?
What I want is a total revamp of income from PVE in all areas of space in the same way that mining, industry, exploration and PI now operate. I think the fact that your alliance can throw hundreds of extremely well equiped supers and titans into a fight is more then enough evidence that nullsec makes plenty of isk. Remember how CCP swore that titans cost so much that only the biggest alliances would be able to field a few? I believe I remember similar statements about super carriers when they were introduced. Seems nullsec income far surpassed even CCP's expectations. I was talking about recruitment banners/images not renter stuff. I've done the renter thing and I've done the big alliance thing. I made more personal isk as a renter but the SRP, intel channels, and such from the big alliance thing certainly made up for the loss in income relative to renting.
My ten billion isk dread was paid for using high sec mission cash. Our last three titans were paid for by high sec mission runners we scammed. Highsec is where we get our funding from.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15935
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Posted - 2015.05.22 04:22:14 -
[103] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:
Reading this thread, it seems either the null dwellers posting suck, or are underrating the income. I never lived there for an extended period and I never made huge ISK from it, so I'm no expert. I know that a couple years ago the Null ratting bots were making as much as Incursion runners hands down. CCP has the confiscated PLEX to prove it.
80% of bots are found in highsec. Bots haven't been a thing in null for at least 7 years now and they have never pulled in incursion level isk.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15939
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Posted - 2015.05.22 11:01:06 -
[104] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:baltec1 wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:
Reading this thread, it seems either the null dwellers posting suck, or are underrating the income. I never lived there for an extended period and I never made huge ISK from it, so I'm no expert. I know that a couple years ago the Null ratting bots were making as much as Incursion runners hands down. CCP has the confiscated PLEX to prove it.
80% of bots are found in highsec. Bots haven't been a thing in null for at least 7 years now and they have never pulled in incursion level isk. huh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX2Tn50UYFw move ahead to 30:40 or so Looks like bots are a thing in all parts of space. Juss sayan m
It used to be the other way around with a raven in almost every null systems belt ratting. Today the forge and lonetrek are where you find the bulk of the bots and its been like that for the last 5-7 years now, as your link shows.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15939
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Posted - 2015.05.22 11:14:14 -
[105] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:baltec1 wrote: It used to be the other way around with a raven in almost every null systems belt ratting. Today the forge and lonetrek are where you find the bulk of the bots and its been like that for the last 5-7 years now, as your link shows.
So the bots are distributed in a similar manner to the player base, shock horror, also bots being 'concentrated' in those regions of space highly suggests a whole lot of mining bots rather than anything else in highsec. So.... your point? That 7 years ago they nerfed belt ratting a little?
If you had watched that video you would have seen they show both mining AND pve combat activities.
To your second point, belt ratting was doomed right from the start but yes, there as also been a few nerfs. See belt ratting used to be good isk but most of the reward is in the form of bounties and as time went past the reward went down due to inflation. Isk today will buy you half of what it used to back then so the effective income from belt ratting has been halfed simple due to inflation. On top of this came the loot nerfs (much needed for mining) which further eroded their worth.
Bots go where the isk is, which is why they used to be everywhere in null, today the bulk of them are in the forge and lonetreck regions because thats where the isk is.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15942
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Posted - 2015.05.23 01:00:12 -
[106] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Sitting in a trade hub and buying/selling has no risk what so ever. Please remove that cash cow from the game.
And please make it so I don't have to leave the safety of my nullsec zerg of death to make isk.
Again with this myth.
Trading is PvP and it is very risky. Just ask anyone who had investments in genelution implants.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15947
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Posted - 2015.05.23 05:10:32 -
[107] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:We are wandering off topic, here.
I agree with whoever said earlier that the main issue is perception vs truth in income and isk flow. Grass is always greener and 'we got it tough, up hills both ways in the snow' start to muddy the waters. Then ridiculous maxima are thrown about as if they are what every person engaged in that activity makes as opposed to what the most efficient bling fleet can take down.
muddy water
If something is good, people will go to it, that will diminish the returns due to either market forces or diminishing availability of the resource itself. Incursions have a carrying capacity beyond which the returns drop. I assume the same goes for null anoms and even moons. Wormholes and faction war? Each seems to have an upper limit of income and then it becomes how is it divided and allocated. Is it to a group, to the solo pilot? To the holding corp or alliance?
Last thing we want is someone horning in on OUR income but you might like more targets to shoot so you ask for other incomes to be nerfed to the point that yours is the only game in town. But that isn't what Eve is or what it shuld be. Some people want to be solo, let them. Others like running with a group of people, that should be allowed as well as an income stream. Large organizataions need their income to stay viable . . . moons.
Conclusion for me is that if YOU think all the money is in Incursions then run them. Either it will make the payouts lessen as people compete for the resource or you will get rich.
No, I do not support nerfing them (though I would like to see the scouts sites rewritten)
m
We do run them, that's the problem. Its not a case of people being jealous of other peoples grass being greener its about pointing out big problems with game imbalances that we are actively abusing.
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baltec1
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16515
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Posted - 2015.08.20 15:01:59 -
[108] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:[quote=Jenn aSide][quote=Gimme]
Be serious there are no unfriendly people in null, they're all blue.
This comment tells us you have never lived in null.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16993
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Posted - 2015.11.20 12:57:58 -
[109] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:
What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.
Does it matter who the 1.5% is?
Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16993
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Posted - 2015.11.20 13:03:21 -
[110] - Quote
Avvy wrote:
Are there no incursions in sov space?
If not maybe they need a few to shake them up a bit.
Yes there are incursions in sov null, they come around in our space once every 1-3 months.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2015.11.20 13:09:45 -
[111] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:
And these players are affecting your Eve how??
What's the point of expending all of that effort and isk on taking and holding null sov if highsec income like incursions dwarfs the income you can make in null?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16995
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:41:45 -
[112] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:See above edit pls.
Removing content is not something I like to see happen. Toning down the isk you can earn from them is a better option in my book.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16995
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Posted - 2015.11.20 13:51:01 -
[113] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: I think having players self regulate (competition for sites for example) is better than CCP regulating, isn't that more in the spirit with Eve?
Big no on that one. We have forced CCP to make changes several times because players simply cannot be trusted to not abuse a game imbalance.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 19:39:11 -
[114] - Quote
Valacus wrote:
So what? I can make more ISK carrier ratting than I do running Incursions easily, but it's boring as all hell.
No you cant. Carrier ratting at its very best will match running level 4 missions in highsec.
Valacus wrote: I can actually talk to people and interact with them if I run incursions. Carrier ratting only pays well when done solo. Same for virtually every type of ratting that takes place in the game. That's why incursions are not only good, but necessary. It's the only form of group PvE there is
Also a big negative on that one too. Our regional ratting fleets are way bigger and way more chatty
Valacus wrote: You're trying to force people to rat in null sec because you want more easy kills, when there are still plenty of fights in null sec because people have enough ISK to buy toys to fight in.
Wrong again, we want change so that the best rewards require the most investment, effort and risk. I don't care if you chose to stay in highsec or not, I want a reason for me to be out in null rather than earning my isk in highsec.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 19:41:26 -
[115] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:
Nobody is denying null sec is tough but thats the trade off you made for living in null sec. You also have access to the biggest form of passive isk in the form of moons. These alone could make you substancially more ISK/hour than an incursion runner does.
They earn as much as a single ice miner does.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:01:30 -
[116] - Quote
Valacus wrote:
Even your supposed "evidence" is all supposition. It's speculation and possible causation. Well, I can do that too.
One of the reason incursion runners, despite being few, make so much ISK is because they are well organized, and that is purely through necessity. Without organization there is no incursion running. Logistics are established ahead of time to ensure the fleets can keep running through all time zones so that all time zones can partake. Another possibility as to why incursion runners make more than their fellow EVE players is simply because they like it. Ratting in null is boring. Running level 4s is boring. Soloing is just not that fun. Incursion running at least provides conversation if nothing else. More things your "evidence" doesn't take into account. You still have nothing. The raw ISK per hour of high sec incursions vs. level 4s and null sec ratting is still comparable. Incursion runners don't make more ISK per hour, they simply run more hours of it because the activity is more bearable.
Nope, they earn more isk/hr than you can out in null and thats a hard fact. If you are comparing organisation incursion runners are at the low end of the scale, they dont run fleets over an entire cluster, they don't operate with intel channels, they don't operate with jump capable ships, they don't have to run the logistics of operating infrastructure we have in sov space. Incursion fleets are no more complicated than any roaming gang.
isk/hr is fairly straight forwards to work out and at this point we have it down to an exact science for every activity. Null is the worst place to earn your isk as a line member.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:03:01 -
[117] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: Sounds like content to me.
Oh wait, don't want content in null, my bad.
There is content and then there is sending the lambs to the slaughter.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:09:28 -
[118] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: It's come to this, the great nullsec Alliances has come down to this.
CCP is the least of this game's problems.
You honestly think test sending a 40 man PVE battleship fleet into the heart of the CFC to run an incursion will end well for test?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:17:52 -
[119] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Then why isn't CfC doing it? One of the single most lucrative activities in eve in being left unused because the biggest, meanest, 'most bestest' Alliance in the game with thousands of members and ships and hundreds of supers 'might get shot at'.
What a colossal joke.
Because the same thing would happen if we sent a battleship fleet to the Russian regions, it simply doesn't work in null space. We will run it when it shows up in our space as we have backup that can defend the fleet but when it moves on we cant follow like you can in highsec.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 21:02:31 -
[120] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Character assassination, how original Regardless, what I said applies to all nullsec alliances, there's no focus on one specific alliance but it is telling that the biggest ones wont even bother. It's there for the taking but you know, being risk averse is not something exclusive to HS players it seems. It's not null that's dead, it's the people that live there. The stories I've heard of Nullsec Alliances back in the day and what I see in game and on the forums now are so different it's no wonder. Would rather whine to CCP day and night than lift a finger to affect change themselves. Whatever, not even worth the time I'm spending to write this.
You honestly think anyone would be able to take a 40 man pve battleship fleet into null without it getting torn apart?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 21:57:41 -
[121] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:
Could have sworn there are null sec incursions....
They spawn once every 1-3 months in our space.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 23:47:49 -
[122] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Fastest way to end highsec incursions is NOT to go begging to CCP.
Just pop the mothership when it appears. But that might require having friends and being skilled for more than just ganking defenseless freighters.
Player-based in-game solutions. Gotta love them! Or, we can keep doing what we are doing, running the incursions on alts, freezing out high sec players who might want to do them themselves, and funnel the outrageous isk faucet into null sec like everything else. Why would we kill our own cash cow like you suggest? This thread is proof that only some of us favor balance over benefit. Thats BS. Your just too lazy to do anything about it, I mean you've just answered why there is nothing wrong with HS incursions, the mechanic is there is stop people from farming them and at the same time allow you to get your own piece. Pretty uneducated troll.
Why would we waste time killing the mother ship? As said we will abuse this easy isk ourselves and have nothing to gain from killing the mother ship.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
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Posted - 2015.11.21 03:03:59 -
[123] - Quote
AtramLolipop wrote:Persifonne wrote: Its okay to make a plex over the weekend with basically zero risk of awoxing, wardecs, and suicide ganks in highsec? Thats like crazy isk even if you only do them say 5hrs a weekend. Thats 4 plex a month risk free.
No problem here?
Let me correct this: Zero risk of awoxing Wardecs, and Suicide ganks -> happens regularly. In 5 hours I've managed 16 poses - solo activity In 5 hours i've cherned 16 lvl 5's - solo activity In 5 hours i've ratted in my carrier - solo activity A mandatory requirement for that 5 hours is the complete trust of strangers with your ship and a high level of team work. Whilst it its a group activity there is absolutely no problem here.
Why do you feel the need to not just lie, but to lie about things that are so easily disproven?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:43:03 -
[124] - Quote
AtramLolipop wrote:
I'm lying because I've been able to do make isk through solo means for plex in 5 hours?
Shall we go step by step?
AtramLolipop wrote: Zero risk of awoxing Wardecs, and Suicide ganks -> happens regularly.
Chances of being ganked in a mission boat are the same as being struck by lightning in real life. You are in a fleet with combat capable ships, buffer tanks and with logi support. You aren't getting ganked. Equally you are not going to get wardecs because NPC corps cant be wardeced and nobody will awox these days.
AtramLolipop wrote: A mandatory requirement for that 5 hours is the complete trust of strangers with your ship and a high level of team work. Whilst it its a group activity there is absolutely no problem here.
Ratting in sov null is a group activity spanning hundreds to thousands of other pilots who put in a lot more time and work than any incursion fleet. The fact that the incursion fleet in highsec earns a lot more for far less work and risk is a big problem.
AtramLolipop wrote: In 5 hours I've managed 16 poses - solo activity
Line members don't own moons, we don't get one personal money moon let alone 16. These are alliance assets as it requires an alliance to protect it.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:56:40 -
[125] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Character assassination, how original Regardless, what I said applies to all nullsec alliances, there's no focus on one specific alliance but it is telling that the biggest ones wont even bother. It's there for the taking but you know, being risk averse is not something exclusive to HS players it seems. It's not null that's dead, it's the people that live there. The stories I've heard of Nullsec Alliances back in the day and what I see in game and on the forums now are so different it's no wonder. Would rather whine to CCP day and night than lift a finger to affect change themselves. Whatever, not even worth the time I'm spending to write this. You honestly think anyone would be able to take a 40 man pve battleship fleet into null without it getting torn apart? That shouldn't happen if the fleet is in your own Sovereign space, right? If CCP begins creating Null sec incursions then it shouldn't be a problem running them in your own space. These incursions should be like 10x the size and difficulty of the incursions in hi-sec which should also allow Caps & Supers.
They pop up in our space once every 1-3 months and are finished as quickly as possible as they cripple jump bridge networks, halt all other pve activity and damage our defences.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17001
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 05:00:24 -
[126] - Quote
AtramLolipop wrote:
dear boy ganking doesn't happen in sites.
Doesn't matter where it happens attacking a vindicator at point blank range in untanked ships is a very bad idea.
AtramLolipop wrote: Try the fact that with out a solid back bone a HS incursion is useless. Ratting in null sec is very much a solo activity I don't care what you say about time and work, both require effort but ratting is very done solo.
Ratting requires infrastructure, which requires sov, which requires you to fight alliances and then you have to protect those ratters and assets. Ratting in sov null is not a solo activity.
AtramLolipop wrote: You're doing it wrong, that's the most ******** thing i've ever heard.
Ok you own a personal money moon. PH have dropped a 150 man proteus fleet with two triage carriers and 15 dreads on it. Good luck protecting it solo.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17003
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 14:15:36 -
[127] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:
If you're making that kind of isk per hour then you're probably in a large alliance. You're receiving all kinds of benefits as a result of a lowered income (you choose to have a lower income by being in that alliance).
.
So you think having an entire alliance working together to improve the space they fought to take and hold should result in lower income than running around in an NPC corp in the safest area of space?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17021
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 02:06:27 -
[128] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:
1, You choose to play in null sec, and you do that mainly because you think you can get space rich and/or you are after fights. First and foremost its your choice, no matter what data your provide me don't complain about other aspects of the game because for some reason the picture of null sec you dreamt of isnt what you experience.
Who is going to move out to the dangerous areas of space that require more investment and effort if you can earn more with near zero investment and risk in the safest areas? The big issue with sov null is a lack of incentives to fight over it.
Hilti Enaka wrote: 2. Contrary to what you are saying null sec isn't the hard ship path you tell, by experience, it's a lot simpler than the picture you paint
Null sov space is a hell of a lot more complicated, expensive to run and risky than anything in highsec.
Hilti Enaka wrote: 3. The largest source of ISK faucet in the game is PVE null sec ratting which is a solo based activity. It's a false economy because you get rewarded by completing the PVE content solo with more PVE content that can be completed solo. Let's not mention that there is no isk sink to this part of the game.
Ah this gem. Largest isk faucet does not equal largest income. The very best income from anoms is 90-100 mil/hr if uninterrupted and if the system is empty of others running sites. This is on par with running level 4 missions in highsec.
Hilti Enaka wrote: 4. Let's not mention the 1000's of moons that are available to null sec dweebs that generate a huge amount of passive ISK.
None of those moons are available to line members, they are alliance assets as it requires alliance level investments to protect them.
Hilti Enaka wrote: 5. Despite null sec being about fights and huge amounts of PVP content all day every day and this prevents people from completing PVE content, this is far from the truth also.
We have by far the most secure space in sov null and get get interruptions from solo and small gangs several times an hour.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17022
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 04:10:29 -
[129] - Quote
You keep on mentioning moons yet you know nothing about them.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17025
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Posted - 2015.11.22 05:13:42 -
[130] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:You keep on mentioning moons yet you know nothing about them. True, I don't know that much about them since I'm not into mining. But I've gather enough intel about them to know that it does provide nullbears with a very lucrative income stream source not attainable in high or low sec. And I've only mentioned moon mining once.
You do know their monthly income is around the same as an ice miners right?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17030
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 12:46:41 -
[131] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:Amazing.
Once again, complete ignorance.
You do realise you can cap a dead moon and make lots of isk doing so?
It is not your fault that your alliance leadership stops you frrom doing so.
Alliance leadership cares for moons that have raw material to mine because that is by far the easiest way to make huge amounts of passive isk. BUT you are still ignoring the fact that you can make ISK on dead moons.
"all of the maintenance" LOL - fuel it and turn off a couple of silos to empty. Such hard work.
Don't try and tell me i'm wrong, I manage 16 poses and spend no less than 5 hours a week "managing" them. It took a few more to set them up but as for the "oh having these towers is such hard work" argument. -> exit door is that way.
You are very wrong and frankly a liar, if you did own those POS you would know their income amount to the same as a highsec ice miner. You also ignore the fact that these assets need protecting by the alliance as you cannot possibly protect them solo.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17030
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 15:33:49 -
[132] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:I'd like to introduce you to a little app. http://postimg.org/image/npbs0qix7/ PS: They only need defending if they are attacked. POS's, unless anchored in a remote location making them easy targets, will not be hit.
POS's under our control are getting hit day after day. Again, feel free to tell me how you are going to defend your pos solo in null.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17032
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 22:24:10 -
[133] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:
Unfortunately that's because you are part of one of the biggest cancers in the game. Join another alliance and move to other parts of null sec is self wealth is what you are after.
All of which suffer the same attacks on their POS networks.
Once again, feel free to tell us how you intend to defend your POS solo in null.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17034
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 05:08:49 -
[134] - Quote
Doc J wrote:baltec1 wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:
Unfortunately that's because you are part of one of the biggest cancers in the game. Join another alliance and move to other parts of null sec is self wealth is what you are after.
All of which suffer the same attacks on their POS networks. Once again, feel free to tell us how you intend to defend your POS solo in null. Solo in null....WTF are you talking about? Living in sov null solo is near impossible. What is possible is for your private moons, in the rare occassion they get hit, are shared with alliance mates for when they come out of Ref. Lets be honest though, if you can get a fight on your door step people don't care who owns the moon if its going to produce content.
Every time this has been tried its failed. People will defend alliance assets but they will not defend your personal money moon that contributes nothing towards the alliance.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17040
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 05:38:06 -
[135] - Quote
Two bads who blinged their level 4 ships. Normal high sec mission and incursion ships are not profitable to gank and are as close to 100% safe as you can get. PVE ship losses in the most secure null sov space dwarfs highsec losses.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17042
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 09:07:10 -
[136] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:How about allowing Covert Cynos to be lit in HS Incursion Systems?
That could be fun.
What are the blops going to do once they drop?, concord will still happyslap them with nukes.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17042
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Posted - 2015.11.26 16:04:56 -
[137] - Quote
Daerrol wrote:Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them?
We are, that's the problem.
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