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qantua gnartians Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.06 20:10:00 - [31] Edited by: qantua gnartians on 06/11/2006 20:12:04 First of all regarding 0.0 there are no stations! 90% of the systems are stationless and of those that have one the pirates cant use it since they are player operated and only allow frindlies to dock, please kill that, it's a non issue, and if your in a system with pos'es well then you have instadock enabled, and wont get your kill anyway, fact is that if the pray isn't afk and have half a brain once it's managed to get to warp it's safe, your constructing situations that just does't happen that often, and tactics that alone count on the oponent being too lazy. Almost all the complaints refer to issues not really related to warp to an unautomatic 0km, as in instas, it's basicly existing game mecanics that just gets a bit easyer to use. Im wondering wry would you like to have this divide between plauers with instas and newer players without instas, since thats the consequence of the current status. It would't make sense having the security system if empire space werent meant to be safer then 0.0 so wry do you want to limit escape options. You could also get rid of them, just delete all instas and put a time limit on new one, here you go no instas noone just warping to gates and so on, 0.0 space would grind to complete halt no one would ever make it to the warzone the end of the great fleet battles would be upon us, raiding pirate swarms would be a rare thing, and so on 0.0 would be a lot less interesting. Uou should't be able to auto dock or set your autopilot to 0km but having them work as instas whats really the problem?
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.06 20:18:00 - [32] hahahahaha!!! riiigghhtt! it fixes it if anything. It makes pirates stop being carebear gate huggers for ISK.
Riley Craven Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.06 20:21:00 - [33] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Securion Wolfheart Just camp the other side of the gate you idiots. Or even better, stop playing EVE so real Pirates dont get a bad rep. Why do half the morons who write on this thread apparently lack basic reading comprehension. Go and actually read the OP. Done? Ok, now that you know that this thread is about station instadocking, pray tell us how we can camp the other side of the station and catch people there, hmmm? Alkeena was talking about anti-pirate pvp, since that is what we do, but yes it hits pirates as well -- anyone can trivially get to safety in any system with a station. I'm not sure that's a good thing. Maybe warp-to-zero should not work with stations. Because insta docking and hitting gate on insta are almost the same, note I said almost, i.e. the target gets away. The problem you dont realise is that the vets have it easy. Most people in Bob are able to get entire region sets with all possible docking opitions from any angle. Not to mention that we have the entire unvierse mapped. You can argue that people dont carry such sets, but that is not the case. I have about 5-6 sets for all the regions that I am always in. Thus I am safe in all those place, and I dont mind being confined to just those sets cuse hey thats a pretty big area after all. Its not fair to other players that dont have them when alot of people do have them. CCP is simply leveling the playing field for everyone.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.06 20:35:00 - [34] Originally by: Riley Craven CCP is simply leveling the playing field for everyone. QFT. The vets all have BMs for the regions they hunt in already anyway.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.06 20:41:00 - [35] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Riley Craven CCP is simply leveling the playing field for everyone. QFT. The vets all have BMs for the regions they hunt in already anyway. Gate-to-gate, yes. Station instadock? Only for selected systems and stations, generally.
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2006.11.06 20:57:00 - [36] My first reaction would be to say I agree with warp to 0 on gates but not to stations. As has been stated you cant camp the other side of a station. That said this would just lead to most pilots having a set of instadock BMs for every station in EVE... great. Either bookmarks should not be allowed within a certain distance of stations (due to gravimetric interference from the stations immense mass) or you could just not pirate in systems with stations but this doesn't solve the PvP issue as often the system being fought in will include a station. However if a pirate docks in your system you have the same instadock safety measure he has should he return to haunt you, along with the fact that you can camp the station so long as he is on-line if you have an op on. I feel it kind of balances out. Yes there will no longer be the fun of endlessly chasing each other around systems, instead there will be the mad dash to get to a system with a station to reach safety. Provided you start in a system without a station a well prepared pirate (or aggressor in general) should be able to catch their target. In short systems with stations and outposts friendly or neutral to the target will provide a degree of safety (which is realistic if you ask me but I suppose that doesn't come into it) similar to that which a POS already provides, but in the dark depths of 0.0 where no one in local will hear you scream... you are alone.
CandleFly	Posted - 2006.11.06 21:00:00 - [37] Edited by: CandleFly on 06/11/2006 21:00:52 Make warp to 0 only available straight after a session change aka just after someone has jumped through a gate. At that point the person has the choice to warp to 0 at the next gate of his choosing. BUT, EVERY other point in that system the option to warp to 0 is not there. Warp to station, belt etc all at 15. Then make it impossible to make a bm within 30km of a gate + station. If a person tries to warp from a belt to a gate or station then the option would only be 15km, no 0 because that is only available upon jumping into the system for a limited time. This would still enable safespots and warp to pos's but no instadocks or instajumps out of a system a person is RESIDENT in. Allow people insta gate travel BUT balance it with a 15km route IN the system they decide to make their home. Do i win?
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.11.06 21:13:00 - [38] How is this any different to using instadock BM's and gate-to-gate bookmarks? Adapt. Camp the other side of the gate.
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 21:42:00 - [39] Keep warp to 0KM.. wipe bookmarks for all players.. leave it as a manual option, keep autopilot the way it is.. increase aggression timer a bit maybe.. problem solved? Seriously everyone has instas, everyone is creating lag, everyone will continue to use instas forever unless they become obsolete, there really isn't any alternative. ===================
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.06 21:44:00 - [40] Originally by: Butter Dog How is this any different to using instadock BM's and gate-to-gate bookmarks? Adapt. Camp the other side of the gate. To re-re-iterate, we're talking about stations here, not gates. The problem is, currently most people (even the vets) don't have station instadock bookmarks except for the systems they spend a lot of time in. This is pretty much a fact -- sure, there will be some people who have 100 bookmarks for every system... but most people are relatively lazy, and just have the stuff they need all the time. Which means gate-to-gates, and selected station instas. The warp-to-zero I have no problem with for gates. As you say, camp the other side. For stations, it's trickier. This change will give an automatic instadock in every system with a station, to any station, with absolutely zero chance of anyone stopping that. Nada, zilch, none. It's not a "sky is falling" thing. But it makes trying to catch anyone (pirate, miner, war target, Tomb in in his JovianMobile :) impossible in a system with even one station. Which means pretty much all of Empire. Which means most of the players in the game. "Is that really good for the game?" is what I guess is the relevant question here.
Gort Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.11.06 21:47:00 - [41] I'm in favor of warp to 0, for a couple of reasons, already mentioned by others. I'm also amazed at the amount of hand-wringing angst on both sides. Ok, on second thought, I'm not amazed at all.... Low-tech sig: "When in doubt, empty the magazine."
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.06 21:51:00 - [42] Originally by: Captain Raynor Seriously everyone has instas, everyone is creating lag, everyone will continue to use instas forever unless they become obsolete, there really isn't any alternative. Well, there is, actually. As other people have suggested, why not have the game enforce a minimum warp-to distance for stations (no matter if you warp manually, select "dock", or use an insta). Say 5km out from the docking area, or 10km. Something to give people some chance of catching people running for the station. ...because I really, really don't like the 100% automatic safety that universal instadock gives you. And hey, I'm more a carebear than a pvp'er here (though I do both ).
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.06 21:52:00 - [43] Originally by: Securion Wolfheart Just camp the other side of the gate you idiots. Or even better, stop playing EVE so real Pirates dont get a bad rep. Don't you hate it when you step out of your ship and immediately get sniped? I know I'll get flamed for this, but CCP needs to restrict AWPs in low sec. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.06 21:53:00 - [44] Originally by: Gort I'm in favor of warp to 0, for a couple of reasons, already mentioned by others. It's important to distinguish between gate warp-to-zero and station warp-to-zero. Are you in favor of both? Most of the reasons "for" mentioned here apply to gates, not stations ("camp the other side", etc etc). I like gate warp-to-zero, for multiple reasons. I don't like station warp-to-zero, for reasons I've tried to outline above.
Siro Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.06 22:20:00 - [45] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Captain Raynor Seriously everyone has instas, everyone is creating lag, everyone will continue to use instas forever unless they become obsolete, there really isn't any alternative. Well, there is, actually. As other people have suggested, why not have the game enforce a minimum warp-to distance for stations (no matter if you warp manually, select "dock", or use an insta). Say 5km out from the docking area, or 10km. Something to give people some chance of catching people running for the station. ...because I really, really don't like the 100% automatic safety that universal instadock gives you. And hey, I'm more a carebear than a pvp'er here (though I do both ). If you don't have them scrambled before they warp off to the station, you probably couldn't have killed them anyway. If you're talking about camping the station and killing people who don't already have an instadock, then you're just preying on noobs anyway. Go suicidecamp in empire if you're that bored.
qantua gnartians Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.06 22:29:00 - [46] Alex Harumichi so an actual change in the game mechanic that allows for docking while having an combat timedown, would solve your problem, far far better then returning to today's system of phaps no insta? This is really not about warp to 0km then this is about the system like gates and stations docking services ignoring the fact that there is a fight going on, right?
Xianthar Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 00:00:00 - [47] stop crying b/c you can't chain newbs anymore, consider fighting someone with skills. (the ones who already have instas) besides, if you have a better solution to BM lag....lets hear it. -xian
Terminus adacai Caldari Mintaka Mining Inc	Posted - 2006.11.07 00:25:00 - [48] I have only been playing for 3 months and have complete GtG and station instas in the 3 regions I work the markets in. To those that say only 20% of the player base uses instas, I say guess again. Warp to 0km eliminates the need for instas. Those complaining are either camping gates, camping stations or make and sell BM's. PvP should be entered by 2 or more willing parties. I move ships and moduals. I am not interested in fighting you, only acquiring isk. My BM's weren't cheap. I paid for them with hard earned isk, however I'll gladly get rid of them if it means everybody has them. Maybe some of the pirates and gankers can now work on trade skills or mine, something useful to the game, rather than collect kill mail.
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.07 01:56:00 - [49] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Captain Raynor Seriously everyone has instas, everyone is creating lag, everyone will continue to use instas forever unless they become obsolete, there really isn't any alternative. Well, there is, actually. As other people have suggested, why not have the game enforce a minimum warp-to distance for stations (no matter if you warp manually, select "dock", or use an insta). Say 5km out from the docking area, or 10km. Something to give people some chance of catching people running for the station. ...because I really, really don't like the 100% automatic safety that universal instadock gives you. And hey, I'm more a carebear than a pvp'er here (though I do both ). I think if ccp could do that they would have by now but I am getting a feeling it can't be done. Unless they could make an imaginary bubble that made warping on top of an object impossible then this is the best solution. Maybe CCP is scared the playerbase will leave in droves if they can't insta around, I dont know. It's possible. ===================
Schroni Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.07 02:00:00 - [50] warp to 0 at gates is fine by me, but it shouldn't work for stations... --- SNIGG Forums my videos
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.07 02:01:00 - [51] Originally by: Schroni warp to 0 at gates is fine by me, but it shouldn't work for stations... Instas work for stations. Warping to 0km is identical to having an instajump bookmark, a change like this will change nothing balance-wise but it will make it so that you can't catch newbies with no instas. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Thaylon Sen The Rat Pack	Posted - 2006.11.07 02:08:00 - [52] I say get rid of bookmarks totaly. Make it so u can only bm static objects. OK, everyone and thier mother has instas, but this does not mean instas are a good thing, they reduce the zones of interaction in the game and this is bad for PvP.
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.07 02:17:00 - [53] As far as people not having Station Instas thats a load a garbage. I see people warp to the same exact location at a station time and time again. Its a known fact there are BM's for every where every place. stop trying to milk this its time to bail on instas all together and replace them with o km warps to gates and stations. Stop camping people and maybe they wouldnt have made instas in the first place?? anyhow you know it has to be done get used to the idea and get your cans up cause its coming. I also feel they should limit personal bookmarks to 50-100 tops for all players. Because people just keep making them and making them and making them and copying and copying over and over............. endless cycle. Do it CCP kill BM's and limit them.
SlyPanther The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 03:01:00 - [54] Riley Craven is spot on, most players have access to just about every region they want to operate in. This as stated includes GtG and Station insta's. When I left my old Corp and decided to play in Empire for a while the first thing I did was jump in a fast frigate and make insta's to the station and the Ice field and other roid belts. This was the first thing I was taught when I played EVE, friends told me how to do it after two days and I continued. I am all for the Warp to 0m, it means I can delete a whole lot of BM's from my people and places, which will make that load faster. I can still go out and create a Safe Spot in 0.0 as you will still need them. The one thing it is going to do is maybe clean up the Escrow system as well, no more seeing 30+ BM regions for sale and so on. I know this will make it hard for Pirates to do what they do best, some Role play but I have found a lot only do it for the kill mails. Also as someone who can not always get online for hours at a time, this will make sending my Alts to purchase new ships a lot faster with the new system, I can get the gear and spend more time shooting things when I do get the chance to get online. There is a lot of give and take for both sides, but for someone who has and uses insta's to either escape being shot or making traveling times faster, I am for it. ---------- Steve Irwin - He's like Fosters, only for export and never for use in Australia -RiP- Steve
Xianthar Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:58:00 - [55] everyone has instas for every thing. any pvp corp worth its arse has bought bms for atleast all of 0.0 and handed them out (atleast we have) thats 1x,xxx bms per member if they all make full sets. as for the stations, everyone BM's stations, many times not just gate to station but every belt/pos/planet to station, some even use UNdock instas (when you undock you are going fast enough to warp. if you have an insta that is in the direction your ship points you insta warp and can't be scrambled unless bubbled) in tactically important systems you also have tactical BM's some of our members have hundereds of BM's in single systems. the entire thing is a mess and just causes lag...get rid of them, allow warp to 0 on everything, kill any BM within 50km of a gate or a station....leave AP the same, warps to 15km and approaches, that should keep the newb chainers entertained, anyone who gives enough of a **** to not be afk APing in low sec is already using instas. get rid of object to object bm's and all that is left are tactical BM's and a bming objects to make them easy to get to from the right click....i imagine these would only represent 1% or less of the bm's currently on the server. -xian
Felix Dzerzhinsky	Posted - 2006.11.07 05:49:00 - [56] You do realize that 'instas' are actually a perverted use of BMs ya? When origionally implemented, the debate was whether instas were an exploit - the Devs were very unhappy about their use. But they let them go because the figured few people would bother. So an industry of gtg was born. The logic of why you warp in at 155km is because the warp-gates disrupt the warp-bubble - instas used a game mechanic to subvert that. I belive CCP should make the gates a 155km no warp zome like it is ment to be. 0.4 and below space should be dangerous, and traveling there should be a risky endever - as it stand this is being dumbed down. As far as okm to docking goes, together with the 0km to gates, it spells the end of small gang pvp without very specilized and highly skilled groups. For those who say camp the other side: 0.4 to 0.6 jump for example. . .uncampable. The only place to really camp is 0.0, which effectivly negates 0.1 to 0.4 space. So where is the danger. . . yes, I am a Pirate, yes I gate camp in 0.4 and below systems. I should not have to join an alliance to have any meaningful pvp. So yyou can travel to low sec now - but on the other hand, who will need to buy ships? Only the alliances or those at war will lose ships, everyone else is safe. Sounds like we need 'battlegrounds' now.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.11.07 06:21:00 - [57] Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 07/11/2006 06:21:45 Warp to 0 is automatic when docking at stations on SISI?! ( I'd try to see myself but it seems I get booted off SISI after about 3 mins every time I happen to get in.. ) BAD IDEA CCP.. The 0km GTG is fine and dandy and may even open up low sec for more timid players but I'll agree with the pirates on this one.. I'll even go one further and say the there should be no warp to 0km option for stations at all as most stations have multiple vectors with which to warp to them giving you an excellent chance of evading most station camps.. Remember that 99% of the whines about camps are gate based ones catching people travelling somewhere.. After you get there and its low sec/0.0 you should have to work for your docking rights.. [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus"
qantua gnartians Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.07 09:24:00 - [58] Felix how will the handout of instas kill small gang PvP? we are again talking about gatecamping for obviusly weaker ships, stabs are a danger to small gang warfare and they are being nerfed, but how does instas? in empire(including .4) you cant bubble and fight freely on the gates, thats wry it's .4 and not .0, but you can fight in the belts without concord getting involved, thats small gang warfare, and warp to 0km isnt changing that. it's not meant to be easyer to pirate in .4 then in .0 that would not make sense. so if you want to camp a .1 to .0 gate do it on the .0 side and put a bubble on the gate itself, the only reason i can see for not doing that is that your a free target on the .0 side. They might lover the reqirements for using a bubble making them easyer to train buy and carry, as a consequence of introducing warp to .0 And no you dont have to join an aliance to have meaningfull PvP just come to 0.0 space alone or in a small gang lots of people do that, and lots of people gets away with it, or hunt ratters in .4> space.
Mitch Taylor Caldari Dark-Rising	Posted - 2006.11.07 09:32:00 - [59] Edited by: Mitch Taylor on 07/11/2006 09:32:41 bookmarks are a major contribitor to the lag in this wonderful game. Welldone CCP warp to 0 should have always been there. As for people moaning about not being able to catch people. That im afraid is rubbish. I have pvp'd in this game for a long time, I have rarely found a target in 0.0 that didnt have instas (sometimes a noob alt in a shuttle). The normal way of cathing someone on instas is to bubble camp or place a dictor on the other side of the gate. Not sure why people are neglecting this standard tactic? As for the empire bubble issue... pirates are lame mmmkay. maybe they will come to 0.0 and stop ganking noobs in shuttles, who knows. Dark-Rising
Ryo Jang Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.07 09:48:00 - [60] also, try a mobile warp bubble perhaps, yes? do i really need to think of these things for you?

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