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Alkeena Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.06 08:42:00 - [1] With warp to 0 implemented, and automatic in the case of docking, pirate hunting becomes nigh on impossible. Catch a flag? Why wait in a SS or bounce warpables? Just instadock...Rather takes the bite out of being flagged, dont you think? Who cares if you made probing easier when you've automatically provided the ultimate safespot in any system with a station?
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.06 08:52:00 - [2] Originally by: Pinky Denmark I'm pretty sure you can't jump or dock while being flagged as criminal... Youre wrong, it works just fine. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.11.06 08:52:00 - [3] I'm pretty sure you can't jump or dock while being flagged as criminal... Gatecamps in lowsec is another matter - Snipers are IMO lame but when they reduce range to within sentry range that would be ok without "jump-to-0"... If they are gonna "jump to zero" better make scrambling affect jumping/docking rights Pinky
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.06 08:52:00 - [4] It makes hunting anything that doesnt want to die impossible. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Peppy LePew	Posted - 2006.11.06 09:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Pinky Denmark I'm pretty sure you can't jump or dock while being flagged as criminal... Youre wrong, it works just fine. You cannot jump or dock if you've aggressed anything recently (not sure the exact time, 2 minutes?), that's probably what he meant. Also if you have a grobal criminal flag, you are subject to sentry fire at both gates and stations... But to respond to the OP: why wouldn't I just insta to a station if I wanted to anyway? Auto-docking only ensures that I don't have to double click the station signature when I drop out of warp... no big gain there. Station instas are so incredibly easy to make, I dock / undock in any station I might be using and make an insta for it, the most it takes me is a small bit of impulsing to get close to the centre point as possible. This would save me a little time and be more convenient than making an insta, but wouldn't give me any more advantages than I have already.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.06 09:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Peppy LePew Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Pinky Denmark I'm pretty sure you can't jump or dock while being flagged as criminal... Youre wrong, it works just fine. You cannot jump or dock if you've aggressed anything recently (not sure the exact time, 2 minutes?), that's probably what he meant. Also if you have a grobal criminal flag, you are subject to sentry fire at both gates and stations... Its 30 seconds, and the sentries wont matter if you can instadock from any direction ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.06 09:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Peppy LePew Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Pinky Denmark I'm pretty sure you can't jump or dock while being flagged as criminal... Youre wrong, it works just fine. You cannot jump or dock if you've aggressed anything recently (not sure the exact time, 2 minutes?), that's probably what he meant. Also if you have a grobal criminal flag, you are subject to sentry fire at both gates and stations... But to respond to the OP: why wouldn't I just insta to a station if I wanted to anyway? Auto-docking only ensures that I don't have to double click the station signature when I drop out of warp... no big gain there. Station instas are so incredibly easy to make, I dock / undock in any station I might be using and make an insta for it, the most it takes me is a small bit of impulsing to get close to the centre point as possible. This would save me a little time and be more convenient than making an insta, but wouldn't give me any more advantages than I have already. It's 30 seconds. And as bad as it is to catch pirates, it's worse going after carebears with instadocks now. lol. Because I said so...
nutbar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.11.06 09:15:00 - [8] Why are there so many people whining about this change? Take this example on TQ right now: I fly to low sec, a gank squad gets me as I'm 15km out from a gate and I die. Pirates win, I lose. Now, take this same example on TQ, but with instas: I fly to low sec with my nice set of instas for every station, gate and grandmother in EVE, a gank squad meets me at a gate but get the shaft since I'm 0m out and I jump away. Pirates lose, I win with my super mega mega insta set I got from a friend of a friend of this guy I know at this secret station in EVE for 2mil isk this one time. FTW!!1!!!ONE!1 Now take the same example on SISI, with warp-to-0m: I fly to low sec, gank squad meets me at the gate but get the shaft since I'm 0m out and I jump away. Hm wait, wasn't this the exact same result as with instas? So, wait a second... by giving the warp-to-0m feature, it means that I don't need my instas? Oh, that also means that the friend of a friend of a guy I know doesn't go around making billions of bookmarks and selling them (which is the root of the problem)? So let me see if I got this right... CCP has fixed the problem by effectively giving everyone instas, without the need for instas? Ohhhh, so now I get it! You pirates are upset because now you can't prey on the people without instas! Awhh, boo hoo :( There are pirates out there who can handle players with instas just fine - why can't you? Gotta rethink your techniques? Tough love.
Okotomi Anki	Posted - 2006.11.06 09:21:00 - [9] Everyone has instas anyway, you just need to learn how to catch ppl with instas. The ways to achive that are numerous, so i wont discuss them here. If you noticed, all BMs on Singularity have been stripped off their coordinates, only names left. I think this was done in order to ease mirroring or whatever. Only as a side effect we now have an option to test "warp to 0", its not intended to be implemented, as Oveur doesnt like this solution (see latest dev chat on coldfront.net). But if this option will get to TQ, it would be nice. People finally could delete their instas (expect 2-3 days of ungodly lag, hehe) and You, i'm sure, will thank devs for this feature. You will inevitably improve your tactics and will be able to catch anyone, not just folks without instas. So, please, please, lets dont whine about it. Lets hope they will forget to disable this testing feature in TQ build.
Epicurus Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.06 09:33:00 - [10] The current system makes it all too easy for the pirates to kill haulers in safe space. What it means now and this is why I think they are moaning is that they will have to work a little harder now. To be honest if your in Jita you should not expect to get popped at a gate in your hauler with 500mil worth of goodies. I have had this dicussion with some people before and they have said "well no where is safe and they try to make it as real as poss" That I understand, but you would not walk up to someone in RL and in front of 10 Police man all watching and mug someone. If you want to head in to low sec space then people know that Concord are not there and if you get into trouble well you have yourself to blame for that. You should know the risks of low sec. What it means for low sec that a pirate will just have to be quicker or have a better gate camp If you in 0.0 and someone really wants to get you then a warp bubble will be waiting for you and a warp to 0 wont help you or you will have gangs on both sides of a gate all within jump range to jump either way to get you. So personally I think the warp to 0 is a good idea and would help make safe space a little safer. Pirates are just going to have to work for a living now People hate change. If it happens it happens and you have to run with it.

nutbar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:30:00 - [11] Suicide gankers are teh suck :P IMHO, they should be fined. If you pop someone in high sec as the initial aggressor, just having your ship kerploded isn't punishment enough. Or perhaps just not allowing others to steal in the precence of concord? Steal someone's can and you get popped? But, that's all for another thread.
Alkeena Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:31:00 - [12] Edited by: Alkeena on 06/11/2006 10:34:24 Originally by: Peppy LePew But to respond to the OP: why wouldn't I just insta to a station if I wanted to anyway? Auto-docking only ensures that I don't have to double click the station signature when I drop out of warp... no big gain there. Station instas are so incredibly easy to make, I dock / undock in any station I might be using and make an insta for it, the most it takes me is a small bit of impulsing to get close to the centre point as possible. This would save me a little time and be more convenient than making an insta, but wouldn't give me any more advantages than I have already. People that claim that everyone has instas everywhere are blatant liars. Very few people are willing to make their own sets and the majority of available sets are simple GtG sets...meaning that, in turn, very few people have instadocks. Even fewer have instadocks in EVERY system that they operate in. No one has instadocks to every station in eve. Why? Because people are lazy, just as many pirates are too lazy to wait out their 15 minute flaga at their keyboard as demonstrated, if by nothing else, by the shear number of kills we get on afk pirates that we've probed out. Now there is absoloutly no incentive to stay in space if you are being hunted, whereas before the incentive was not getting rocked by the sentries (or, equivalently if you take the broader view, not having to make insta docks everywhere). Now there is one less reason to stay in space if you are at all threatened...Anything that encourages someone to dock instead of actually playing the game, simply seems daft to me. Edit: Before I'm accused again, as I was above, of not knowing how to hunt those that use instas--I assure you that we are well versed in it. That does not change the fact that encouraging people to always dock at the slightest sign of trouble detracts from the game
Securion Wolfheart Caldari Semper Fidelis Industries	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:41:00 - [13] Just camp the other side of the gate you idiots. Or even better, stop playing EVE so real Pirates dont get a bad rep. -----====----- Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.
Otellus eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:47:00 - [14] Most of the real fights take place in 0.0 anyway. If you don't want someone to instadock, bubble the station. Not that I can't understand the frustration, and I would have preferred a somewhat less 'easy way out' solution myself, but if this is gonna get rid of all the BM induced lag, I'm all for it. Lag is a bigger problem than catching people who don't want to fight IMO. Personally I'd prefer a skill for each region, level 1 skill for empire, level 2 for lowsec, level 3 for 0.0, with each skilllevel reducing warpin distance to gate by 3km. Makes people more regionalized and less likely to travel all over the map without repercussions. But if I have to pick between the current system and the warp to 0, warp to 0 gets my vote. Though adding the ability to use bubbles in lowsec would be good as an additional change in this case IMO.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:49:00 - [15] Originally by: nutbar Ohhhh, so now I get it! You pirates are upset because now you can't prey on the people without instas! Awhh, boo hoo :( There are pirates out there who can handle players with instas just fine - why can't you? Gotta rethink your techniques? Tough love. Do you have instas for every system in eve from any possible direction to any gate or station? No you dont. Thats what will change Oh and for what its worth, in dont care too much about piracy. I care about killing enemies in 0.0, this change will make it impossible to anyone that isn afk, since a single button now takes them into 100% safety from anywhere any time. The result? Having to resort to alt covert ops, alt scouts, voice chat infiltration and other metagaming tactics just so you can get their location before they have a chance to hit the dock button. Im all in favor of warping to gates at 0 but it should be removed for stations. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Ionstream	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:54:00 - [16] bubbles will still pull them off of the gate surely, like they do now? that puts the distance right back in there. and you could always bubble right on a gate so people jumping in from the next system are caught
Tareen Kashaar eXin Alliance Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Securion Wolfheart Just camp the other side of the gate you idiots. Or even better, stop playing EVE so real Pirates dont get a bad rep. QFT :) Adapt and improve. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:57:00 - [18] Originally by: Ionstream bubbles will still pull them off of the gate surely, like they do now? that puts the distance right back in there. and you could always bubble right on a gate so people jumping in from the next system are caught You could, in 0.0. Im not worried about being able to warp to gates, camping gates still wont be an issue after this change. Catching people from they dock is what im worried about, being able to instadock anywhere always combined with the local changes makes 0.0 PVP 100% consentual. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Lucas Smaise Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.06 11:21:00 - [19] Edited by: Lucas Smaise on 06/11/2006 11:22:28 Originally by: nutbar Suicide gankers are teh suck :P IMHO, they should be fined. If you pop someone in high sec as the initial aggressor, just having your ship kerploded isn't punishment enough. Or perhaps just not allowing others to steal in the precence of concord? Steal someone's can and you get popped? But, that's all for another thread. I can see you had some real problems with being ganked earlier. You dont like pirates. You dont like suicide gankers. You dont like this, You dont like that. You are exactly like the people complaining here. Except this time things are going to get better for you. The only reason they are even considering removing the BM is for the lag issue when dealing with 10.000+ BMs on so many chars. Not because a guy makes 35 mil isk per region he sells of BM. And you also get the sec hit. The system is fine as it is. If you cannot protect yourself leave and go another way. Lucas Smaise
Darineah Charach Minmatar The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.06 11:38:00 - [20] I've posted in another thread the reasons why i'm all for warp to 0. I think the benefits will vastly outweigh the disadvantages. However, a couple of excellent points have been made in this thread and i am slightly revising my thoughts. Due to the prevalence of GTG sets, warping to gates will make very little difference to the game. Particularly out where i live in 0.0. Warping to stations however is i think a mistake. Reduce the lag by removing GTG, makes sense. But instadocking straight off the bat will impact combat far more dramatically. ------- Boxing Kangaroo

Agasagy	Posted - 2006.11.06 11:49:00 - [21] Originally by: Alkeena With warp to 0 implemented, and automatic in the case of docking, pirate hunting becomes nigh on impossible. Catch a flag? Why wait in a SS or bounce warpables? Just instadock...Rather takes the bite out of being flagged, dont you think? Who cares if you made probing easier when you've automatically provided the ultimate safespot in any system with a station? I think every1 but noobs know that you sould make a instadock bookmark in the low sec system you are operating in, well I do and I have about 50 regions of bm's and I would like to see this happen warp to 0 I have seen this is test server before but it didn't come through to Tranquility any1 know if that is going to happen now or is this just to reduce lagg in test server? I dream about Warp to 0 if there are gate camps in 0.0 there is allway bubbles if not thay don't get any kills, No1 enter's 0.0 without bookmarks anymore (or atleast souldn't)
Harcole Amarr Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:01:00 - [22] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Ionstream bubbles will still pull them off of the gate surely, like they do now? that puts the distance right back in there. and you could always bubble right on a gate so people jumping in from the next system are caught You could, in 0.0. Im not worried about being able to warp to gates, camping gates still wont be an issue after this change. Catching people from they dock is what im worried about, being able to instadock anywhere always combined with the local changes makes 0.0 PVP 100% consentual. I believe an idea to this problem would be make a high slot module for traveling setups and haulers to use, these enable the warp to 0km option, this should require Navigation level 3 or something easy to train that everyone can use it very quickly. EG. Module Name: Navigation Focusing Array Slot: High Power: 25 (Im not good at these but need to be fitable to all ships so low) CPU: 30 (same as power comment ) Description: A powerfull scanner and range finder system for pin-pointing locations in space such as stargates and stations, allows the warp drive system to be pre-programmed before warp to the exact exit point of the desired target. Skill Requirements: Navigation 3 Secondary (possibly?): Signiture Analysis 1 Just my 0.02 isk Cheers Harcole
Agasagy	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Otellus But if I have to pick between the current system and the warp to 0, warp to 0 gets my vote. Though adding the ability to use bubbles in lowsec would be good as an additional change in this case IMO. /Signed
TZeer Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:15:00 - [24] I cant see why people are complaining about the warp to 0km option... The dev`s stated that if that was going to get implemented they would like it to be 0km if u did it manually, and the default 15km if u fly on autopilot... It`s just like it is today!!! Just without the bm`s and lag!! And if some of you dont know how to catch people at gates, get a clue... And yeah, every sane person operating in a system or area uses instadock bm`s anyway.
Alkeena Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:19:00 - [25] Salient point: Gate campers operate in a very few systems and so may have those systems well preparred, this is not true of belt pirates. Belt pirates roam several systems, sometimes entire regions, seeking targets. Gate campers are well exposed--busting up camps is incredibly easy and so you'll find that in regions with exceptionally active AP forces they dont occur often or last terribly long. The majority of pirating is belt pirating. For a belt pirate to achieve the same effect as these changes he must pre-prepare docking instas for an entire region(s)--very, very few do, I promise you. As a result when they actually get flagged they more often than not actually stay in space, and lo a hunt is on. Enjoyable game play is had. Now they will simply dock. Station instas are fundamentally different from gate instas in two respects: 1) They are not NEARLY as prevalent 2) Unlike a gate you can not catch people on the far side. There is no far side, they are safe. Period. If they manage to get into warp just a SINGLE time they completely and utterly safe, you cant jump after them and try to catch them--your only recourse is to station camp them which will be ultimately futile given the _VAST_ prevalence of insta redock stations and the spotty success rate of bumping. Even 0.0 is troubled, since you all know SO MUCH about hunting people I'm SURE you know that bubbles DO NOT affect people that have already entered warp, so you're presented with the following situation: Dictor enters system, warps to station. Concurrently the dictor pilot is lit up light a christmas tree in local and everyone else in system enters warp, and they manage to get wda before the dictor drops from warp. Dictor drops the bubble. everyone else warps straight through the bubble and insta-docks. Not ANY different from before you say? There are some small stations out there ( /me <3 thukker stations) where instadocks dont work from every direction, they may have botched their BM and gotten bounced off the station. Theres still a chance of catching them, trust me, I do it to the locals almost daily. Now there is no chance at all, they're just safe. The change takes us from a position where hunts were had; fun and potentially challenging gameplay was enjoyed by all to one in which the default situation is instead starring at each other through the port-holes of a station. Hours of waiting in/outside a station sounds like a game _I_ want to play... For those saying 'adapt,' get a clue. I, and anyone else with half a brain understand quite well how to hunt intelligent people using instas--it's actually not that hard. The issue HERE is that the ultimate ubiquity of insta docks to EVERY STATION IN THE GAME will remove yet another distinction between those smart/able/willing enough to actually prepare and the random rookie that knows jackall about flying. It removes yet another avenue by which non-consensual PvP may occur (griefing the griefers this time ) turning EVE into even more of consensual based game. Might as well start using battlegrounds. ~Alkeena
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.11.06 18:28:00 - [26] Stop camping gates and stations, ffs. Stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it. Now that that's out of my system, I gotta say, quit your whining about giving instas to the 20% of the playerbase that does NOT have instas. Stop whining about warping to unusual vectors to avoid your precious bubbles. Stop whining about insta-docking when someone escapes your belt gank. use recons and intys for what they're SUPPOSED to be used for, hunting and grabbing foes in belts. Use dictors in similar fashions. Adjust your tactics and look for targets that aren't noob alts in shuttles. Quit ******* whining and look at more important issues in Kali. ---------------------------- Please don't try to troll in your signature -Eldo([email protected]) I tried?
Alkeena Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.06 18:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Nicocat Stop camping gates and stations, ffs. Stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it. Now that that's out of my system, I gotta say, quit your whining about giving instas to the 20% of the playerbase that does NOT have instas. Stop whining about warping to unusual vectors to avoid your precious bubbles. Stop whining about insta-docking when someone escapes your belt gank. use recons and intys for what they're SUPPOSED to be used for, hunting and grabbing foes in belts. Use dictors in similar fashions. Adjust your tactics and look for targets that aren't noob alts in shuttles. Quit ******* whining and look at more important issues in Kali. Have you read the post at all? I'm anti-pie I ONLY hunt capible PvPers, and I do it to keep my friends safe. I'm not looking for ganks for the sake of ganks, I kill them so they dont come back. Why dont you stop trolling and actually open your eyes to the reality of PvP in this game?
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.11.06 19:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Alkeena Originally by: Nicocat Stop camping gates and stations, ffs. Stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it. Now that that's out of my system, I gotta say, quit your whining about giving instas to the 20% of the playerbase that does NOT have instas. Stop whining about warping to unusual vectors to avoid your precious bubbles. Stop whining about insta-docking when someone escapes your belt gank. use recons and intys for what they're SUPPOSED to be used for, hunting and grabbing foes in belts. Use dictors in similar fashions. Adjust your tactics and look for targets that aren't noob alts in shuttles. Quit ******* whining and look at more important issues in Kali. Have you read the post at all? I'm anti-pie I ONLY hunt capible PvPers, and I do it to keep my friends safe. I'm not looking for ganks for the sake of ganks, I kill them so they dont come back. Why dont you stop trolling and actually open your eyes to the reality of PvP in this game? Gatecamps/Gateganks ARE the sole source of PvP in EVE, save for fleet battles, nowadays. That's why warp to 0 was even thought up (that and the BM whoring). I putter around high, low, and 0.0 security space, and I'm quite confident of this statement. Warp into a system with someone ratting/mining/etc? They fleet fast to a SS or a station they have an insta to. Belt hunting is a dead art, unless someone is a) bait, or b) suicidal/slow/stupid. ---------------------------- Please don't try to troll in your signature -Eldo([email protected]) I tried?
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.06 19:21:00 - [29] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 06/11/2006 19:23:05 Nevermind, no point. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.06 19:31:00 - [30] Originally by: Securion Wolfheart Just camp the other side of the gate you idiots. Or even better, stop playing EVE so real Pirates dont get a bad rep. Why do half the morons who write on this thread apparently lack basic reading comprehension. Go and actually read the OP. Done? Ok, now that you know that this thread is about station instadocking, pray tell us how we can camp the other side of the station and catch people there, hmmm? Alkeena was talking about anti-pirate pvp, since that is what we do, but yes it hits pirates as well -- anyone can trivially get to safety in any system with a station. I'm not sure that's a good thing. Maybe warp-to-zero should not work with stations.



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