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Sinking minerals: is PvP what makes the EVE economy go round?

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Anuri Suaraj Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 10	Posted - 2015.05.04 16:28:16 - [121] - Quote Ah....ehrm...you do realize that these are virtual minerals were talking about, right? As in, CCP can at any time adjust the spawn rate of the said minerals thus averting "The great mineral crisis of 2015 bicoz too many missiles fired at NPC-s..." Just sayin'...
Areen Sassel 49	Posted - 2015.05.04 16:50:50 - [122] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: But yeah, I think that the OP's mention that "we need numbers from CCP" isn't really true, not to get a general feel for this anyways. There are so many spreadsheet pros on the forums; I'm sure if one of them took up the task they could figure out ballpark numbers for mineral cost per ship HP and all that other stuff pretty dang quickly. Go post in market discussions and see if those guys are feeling up to the task. Mineral faucet/sink talk shouldn't be moved out of their by mods, I wouldn't think. I don't think any industrialist is going to take seriously for a moment the idea that ammo production consumes the majority of minerals. (And presumably, in the OP's scenario, every time you fit a laser, an economist cries).
Amarrchecko Hedion University Amarr Empire 54	Posted - 2015.05.04 17:01:27 - [123] - Quote Areen Sassel wrote: Amarrchecko wrote: But yeah, I think that the OP's mention that "we need numbers from CCP" isn't really true, not to get a general feel for this anyways. There are so many spreadsheet pros on the forums; I'm sure if one of them took up the task they could figure out ballpark numbers for mineral cost per ship HP and all that other stuff pretty dang quickly. Go post in market discussions and see if those guys are feeling up to the task. Mineral faucet/sink talk shouldn't be moved out of their by mods, I wouldn't think. I don't think any industrialist is going to take seriously for a moment the idea that ammo production consumes the majority of minerals. (And presumably, in the OP's scenario, every time you fit a laser, an economist cries). Did you quote the wrong post of mine or something? I didn't say a word about ammo production using the majority of minerals, let alone make a claim about who would care how much about it. I did say that the folks in the market forums would be the ones to ask if you want to quickly get a ballpark idea of how many minerals are consumed every day to create the ammo that causes 24,000,000,000 damage to NPCs every single day, though. And I'm pretty sure the answer is "a lot" even if it isn't "more than everything else combined."
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16308	Posted - 2015.05.04 17:30:26 - [124] - Quote Well I see the week kicked off with a Titan loss. That's ~66 billion ISk worth of minerals right there. Better get shooting, PvErs. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 1663	Posted - 2015.05.04 18:05:17 - [125] - Quote masternerdguy wrote: This also serves to give a realistic intro to PVP. Currently PVP combat and PVE combat are (mostly, maybe minus wormholes and incursions) worlds apart and assumptions that work great in one get you killed in the other. Really? I do just fine in most pve with my pvp fit ships. Minmatar Citizen 534612187 wrote: Holy ***, what's wrong with you people? Someone makes a thread saying "I don't think PvP is as much of an economic drive as some people say it is. Here's how we can test this claim," and this* is what it turns into? Isn't the average age of the EVE player like 27? ... oh my god this is what politics must be like Malcanis put down some excellent stats earlier in the thread. I recommend reading his posts until someone can come up with some that are more complete. Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information. BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 3503	Posted - 2015.05.04 20:10:59 - [126] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: (...) If you want to actually build a universe or PvE encounters, you should try another game, one that's essential core concept is not "full time PvP in a sandbox environment" as the New Pilot's FAQ tells us. (...) You're the second one to link that guide without reading it. Do you know what's funny? The first chapter of the guide is titled "What is EVE Online?" Do you know the answer? NOTHING. The guide never defines "What is EVE Online". They introduce new players to being a capsuleer (1.1, Who do I play as?), to New Eden (1.2 Where does EVE Online take place?), to MMOs (1.3 What is a massively multiplayer game?), to the persistent world (1.4 What is meant by GÇ£continuous and persistent world"?), to Tranquility (1.5 How many servers are there?) and to the trial account (1.6 Can I get a free trial account for EVE Online?). That's it. You and the guy who did it before you have been quoting fabricated bullshit. The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36721	Posted - 2015.05.04 20:29:10 - [127] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: That's it. You and the guy who did it before you have been quoting fabricated bullshit. I don't think it was linked in order to refer to the first chapter. How it's organised and where the information is located is secondary to the messages: Section 5.3 (page 15): In EVE Online, any player may attack any other player if they choose to, no matter where they happen to be. This is because EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core. Section 7 (page 22): The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment. Being passionate about a position and arguing it is one thing, ignoring fact and calling it bullshit does nothing but undermine any credibility you have in a discussion. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Enya Sparhawk Black Tea and Talons 50	Posted - 2015.05.04 20:32:43 - [128] - Quote No, its competition that makes the EVE economy go... Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne Déan gáire...Tiocfaidh ár lá
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 3503	Posted - 2015.05.04 22:16:26 - [129] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: That's it. You and the guy who did it before you have been quoting fabricated bullshit. I don't think it was linked in order to refer to the first chapter. How it's organised and where the information is located is secondary to the messages: Section 5.3 (page 15): In EVE Online, any player may attack any other player if they choose to, no matter where they happen to be. This is because EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core. Section 7 (page 22): The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment. Being passionate about a position and arguing it is one thing, ignoring fact and calling it fabricated bullshit does nothing but undermine credibility in a discussion. Oh yes, come and read the whole document until page 22 to find the source of my quotation... The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36723	Posted - 2015.05.04 22:42:27 - [130] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Oh yes, come and read the whole document until page 22 to find the source of my quotation... What page would be appropriate for CCP to have arranged and formatted the information to your satisfaction? If CCP had arranged it to meet your expectation, would that necessarily meet everyone else's, or are CCP better off doing the best they can to arrange the information in the order they think is most logical? Does it being on page 22 make it fabricated bullshit, or is it still a real quote? Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. Mildly Annoyed 3348	Posted - 2015.05.04 22:45:38 - [131] - Quote A couple of issues: Structures will still get destroyed, just not by shooting them. The Entosis link will do it. So that mineral sink remains. In fact it could get bigger as we will be able to destroy outposts. I mine and build. I use far more minerals making a few ships and I do making many different types of ammo. So my guess is ship destruction is more important as a mineral sink. A different mineral sink is players leaving the game, abandoning huge stocks of ships, and sometimes minerals, in inactive accounts. Know a Frozen fan? Check this out Frozen fanfiction
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 116	Posted - 2015.05.04 22:51:30 - [132] - Quote Hengle Teron wrote: Oh and there's why simple reason why NPC killing is not even a mineral sink: loot dropped Nope. Loot drop isn't isk. Try again. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 116	Posted - 2015.05.04 22:53:06 - [133] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: That's it. You and the guy who did it before you have been quoting fabricated bullshit. I don't think it was linked in order to refer to the first chapter. How it's organised and where the information is located is secondary to the messages: Section 5.3 (page 15): In EVE Online, any player may attack any other player if they choose to, no matter where they happen to be. This is because EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core. Section 7 (page 22): The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment. Being passionate about a position and arguing it is one thing, ignoring fact and calling it fabricated bullshit does nothing but undermine credibility in a discussion. Oh yes, come and read the whole document until page 22 to find the source of my quotation... Your laziness is not other people's problem, except that you become the problem. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 2838	Posted - 2015.05.04 23:37:07 - [134] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Well I see the week kicked off with a Titan loss. That's ~66 billion ISk worth of minerals right there. Better get shooting, PvErs. EDIT: 2 titans now. So, I went to eve-industry.org to get an idea of how much tritanium went into making a titan. 3,429,807,599.00 units (went with the Erebus). Then I looked how many to make a cruise missile, 1,658.00. That is it takes 2,068,641.50 worth of cruise missiles to provide the same amount of tritanium that is in a titan. Using Malcanis' 1 missile/second and dividing 2,068,641.50 by 3600 we get 574.62 hours of continuous missile shooting or about 24 days. Assuming our raven pilot is playing a more reasonable, yet still pretty impressive, 4 hours a day it would take 143.66 days of playing expend enough cruise missiles to equal the amount of tritanium that is in 1 titan. And on the front page I see three dead titan and a dead Aeon, and a dead Nyx. All in the last 7 days. So, lets say 2,050,000 cruise missiles/titan for a grand total of 6,150,000 cruise missiles. And 1,080,000 cruise missiles for the 2 supers. A total of 7,230,000 cruise missiles need to be fired for the PvE guys to match what was destroyed in the last 7 days alone for just the big kills. And another 285,000 cruise missiles for just the obelisks killed on the front page of freighter kills. 305,526.37 for the eight charon kills today as well. We are closing in on almost 8 million cruise missiles. Ishtanchuk, you have ALOT of ratting to do. Edit: For freighter, from April 10 to May 4 there were 50 Obelisks killed. That is a tad under 35 million cruise missiles, using just tritanium if we assume that is a reasonable monthly number and multiply by 12. And when we multiply by the other racial freighters we are talking about 140 million cruise missiles over the course of the year for just freighters alone. That is a alot of ****ing cruise missiles ratters are going to have shoot. Edit 2: Whoops, missed 3 obelisks that died on the 10th of April on the second page. But what the heck, lets just keep the above numbers. You get the point, PvP seems to require quite a bit of minerals. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Solecist Project Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD 23489	Posted - 2015.05.05 00:24:14 - [135] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Black Pedro wrote: (...) If you want to actually build a universe or PvE encounters, you should try another game, one that's essential core concept is not "full time PvP in a sandbox environment" as the New Pilot's FAQ tells us. (...) You're the second one to link that guide without reading it. Do you know what's funny? The first chapter of the guide is titled "What is EVE Online?" Do you know the answer? NOTHING. The guide never defines "What is EVE Online". They introduce new players to being a capsuleer (1.1, Who do I play as?), to New Eden (1.2 Where does EVE Online take place?), to MMOs (1.3 What is a massively multiplayer game?), to the persistent world (1.4 What is meant by GÇ£continuous and persistent world"?), to Tranquility (1.5 How many servers are there?) and to the trial account (1.6 Can I get a free trial account for EVE Online?). That's it. You and the guy who did it before you have been quoting fabricated bullshit. You are such a sad, lonely person ... I feel pity for you. DOES YELLING ANNOY YOU ? LIKE MY IDEA BELOW AND I WILL REMOVE IT !! Corpses4Drifters CLICK THE LINK !! YOU LIKE THE IDEA !! FOR EVEN MORE PLAYER DRIVEN CONTENT !!
Sri Nova Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 146	Posted - 2015.05.05 01:22:25 - [136] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Yeah..... lets not even try to summerize it... Ok. so lets try an pretend what you said made sense. what are you getting at ? what difference does it make how the minerals in game are consumed ? their consumed and consumed voraciously, it matters not how they are consumed, who consumes, or for what purpose they are consumed. there is nothing in game gained by knowing who consumes more minerals. if you really want some true insight into the eve market place look at the freaking QEN and draw some conclusions from it. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Quarterly_Economic_Newsletter for example this lil nugget right here ... Quote: "The economic ratio Top 10 list is 90% composed of Tech I frigates and destroyers. The low price of these ships helps to keep the ratio up, and their use in suicide ganks undoubtedly helps too, especially since value lost to CONCORD is not counted. It should be noted that some ships which caused great destruction had no losses that month and therefore canGÇÖt have their economic ratio calculated" you could have used that in your post and twisted it into all kinds of fascinating ways... unfortunately this was not the case. and were left with a confusing post about who uses up more minerals pvps or pves. and no reason for why it matters.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 10885	Posted - 2015.05.05 01:38:01 - [137] - Quote Sri Nova wrote: what are you getting at ? what difference does it make how the minerals in game are consumed ? Excuse me Stewardess, I think I can help, I speak ~~Jive~~ Ishtanchuck. What he's saying is that he looked at some stats that (in his far out mind) suggests that lots of people are like him aka "PVErs", which further suggests to him that those people want the same things he wants (despite the fact that lots of us (PVErs) ask him to try speaking for himself for once)... and so the focus on pvp that this game (created by Icelandic folks who btw were big fans of pvp in other games) is somehow wrong and should be shifted to a focus on PVE because of CCPs wallet or some such. CCP better do something about his concerns, lest he leave the game and promise to never come back...again.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12889	Posted - 2015.05.05 01:43:31 - [138] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: CCP better do something about his concerns, lest he leave the game and promise to never come back...again. People say that a lot, but even the ones who claim to write strongly worded letters seem to pop back up again, despite how much they claim to hate this game. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Sri Nova Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 147	Posted - 2015.05.05 01:50:07 - [139] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Sri Nova wrote: what are you getting at ? what difference does it make how the minerals in game are consumed ? Excuse me Stewardess, I think I can help, I speak ~~Jive~~ Ishtanchuck. What he's saying is that he looked at some stats that (in his far out mind) suggests that lots of people are like him aka "PVErs", which further suggests to him that those people want the same things he wants (despite the fact that lots of us (PVErs) ask him to try speaking for himself for once)... and so the focus on pvp that this game (created by Icelandic folks who btw were big fans of pvp in other games) is somehow wrong and should be shifted to a focus on PVE because of CCPs wallet or some such. CCP better do something about his concerns, lest he leave the game and promise to never come back...again. well if thats the case then, they need to stop sucking off the rocks and look around new eden because pve is a changing or else they may be in here screaming about loosing their mining ship to a roaming bunch of EVP gankers.
malcovas Henderson THoF 374	Posted - 2015.05.05 02:45:27 - [140] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: CCP better do something about his concerns, lest he leave the game and promise to never come back...again. People say that a lot, but even the ones who claim to write strongly worded letters seem to pop back up again, despite how much they claim to hate this game. I must confess that I am a WoW player, and troll the forums regularly. When WoD was released, the uproar for the lack of flying was phenomenal. Many claimed that it broke their game. Made the game totally unplayable. Yet despite all of this, most are still paying to play a "broken" game. These imbeciles are a scourge upon the gaming community. bereft of any intelligent capability to understand that, if the game is no longer fun, move on. Instead to them, the obvious answer is for the developers change the mechanics / playstyle of the game to their requirements. **** everyone else. Hope you and baby are doing well.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12890	Posted - 2015.05.05 02:57:00 - [141] - Quote malcovas Henderson wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: CCP better do something about his concerns, lest he leave the game and promise to never come back...again. People say that a lot, but even the ones who claim to write strongly worded letters seem to pop back up again, despite how much they claim to hate this game. I must confess that I am a WoW player, and troll the forums regularly. When WoD was released, the uproar for the lack of flying was phenomenal. Many claimed that it broke their game. Made the game totally unplayable. Yet despite all of this, most are still paying to play a "broken" game. These imbeciles are a scourge upon the gaming community. bereft of any intelligent capability to understand that, if the game is no longer fun, move on. Instead to them, the obvious answer is for the developers change the mechanics / playstyle of the game to their requirements. **** everyone else. Hope you and baby are doing well. I play Hearthstone, have since Beta. It's easier on the wallet than most other card games. Their forums are much the same, just seeing people QQ endlessly, it gives me no end of amusement. And yes, the baby is doing great. Much to my delight, he is learning how to smile, when his tummy is full and he's happy, anyway. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
malcovas Henderson THoF 374	Posted - 2015.05.05 03:07:20 - [142] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I play Hearthstone, have since Beta. It's easier on the wallet than most other card games. Their forums are much the same, just seeing people QQ endlessly, it gives me no end of amusement. And yes, the baby is doing great. Much to my delight, he is learning how to smile, when his tummy is full and he's happy, anyway. I feel sorry for Blizzard. I also played Diablo III. Their forums are the worst I have ever seen for these kind of people. The amount of QQ, that such item / set / class / spell is so overpowered, and should be removed, and this from what was a non competitive single player game. The amount of pure jealousy that someone is progressing faster and better than they, is mind boggling. So glad young Kaarous is doing well, and bringing you joy. I bet you cannot wait till the smile turns into a manical laugh at the sight of a well executed gank.
DaReaper Net 7 2014	Posted - 2015.05.05 03:14:22 - [143] - Quote Tl;DR (just got back from disney, i aint; got time to read this) but i gleamed "hi, im an ex wow player that thiks eve needs better pve. k thanks" I won;t disagree thats eve's pve is lacking, but honestly that s not the point of eve, The economy moves based on consumption and destruction. So both feed into it. /thread OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12891	Posted - 2015.05.05 03:37:34 - [144] - Quote malcovas Henderson wrote: So glad young Kaarous is doing well, and bringing you joy. I bet you cannot wait till the smile turns into a manical laugh at the sight of a well executed gank. My daughter is well on the way in that regard. She always loves to watch when I play Destiny, although she insists that I shoot people in the butt, from which she derives no end of amusement. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 23739	Posted - 2015.05.05 03:41:35 - [145] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: That's it. You and the guy who did it before you have been quoting fabricated bullshit. I'm the other guy. The New Player FAQ is an official CCP publication. PvP initially comes up in a chapter named basic game play, this is not an accident, nor is it inappropriate. The What Is Eve Online chapter does hint that Eve is a PvP environment, several times. With that in mind; pray tell, what about the two posts that refer to the New Player FAQ quotes are fabricated bullshit? Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 15814	Posted - 2015.05.05 03:43:07 - [146] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: PvE may destroy more minerals and be more relevant to the economy than PvP. CCP should check it and bear it in mind when considering the design priorities of new content once they finish the current development cycle in 2016. PVE makes up next to nothing in terms of destruction. One Battle in a single system in null destroyed more stuff than all of highsec put together for an entire month. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship**
Liafcipe9000 Critically Preposterous WINMATAR. 36348	Posted - 2015.05.05 07:07:24 - [147] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: "PvP is necessary to destroy stuff. Without destroying stuff, EVE economy would be destroyed; EVE economy is about the cycle of creation and destruction and PvP keeps that wheel turning" Yet, is that accurate? Is PvP the only end, or the principal end of the life cycle of minerals? Or are there other ways in which minerals are deleted from the game? Maybe ways that consume more minerals, even? This seems to be yet another case of simple misinterpretation. A more accurate saying would be the one mentioned in this video: Quote: Without destruction, there would be no need for creation. a good video, if I may add. I recommend watching it in full. Critically Preposterous is recruiting - Good fights errday in faction warfare! I am a cat.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 3503	Posted - 2015.05.05 08:20:35 - [148] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Oh yes, come and read the whole document until page 22 to find the source of my quotation... What page would be appropriate for CCP to have arranged and formatted the information to your satisfaction? If CCP had arranged it to meet your expectation, would that necessarily meet everyone else's, or are CCP better off doing the best they can to arrange the information in the order they think is most logical? Does it being on page 22 make it fabricated bullshit, or is it still a real quote? Quoting 101: when you quote a document, state the page and section where the quote can be found. "CCP says X in this document 70 pages long" =/= "CCP says X in page 22 of this document 70 pages long" Then it comes when CCP (kind of) defines "What is EVE Online" in section 5 rather than in the section titled "What is EVE Online?", but hey, !!CCP!! The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai 3503	Posted - 2015.05.05 08:22:55 - [149] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: That's it. You and the guy who did it before you have been quoting fabricated bullshit. I'm the other guy. The New Player FAQ is an official CCP publication. PvP initially comes up in a chapter named Basic Game Play, this is not an accident, nor is it inappropriate. The What Is Eve Online chapter hints at Eve being a PvP environment, several times. You'd know that if you read it thoroughly, as you claim. With that in mind; pray tell, what about the two posts that refer to the New Player FAQ quotes are fabricated bullshit? You failed to provide the source of the quotation. How is my fault if CCP doesn't defines "what is EVE Online" in a first chapter titled "What is EVE Online?" and then you don't bother to say you pulled a quote out of page 22? The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12899	Posted - 2015.05.05 08:28:22 - [150] - Quote Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: You failed to provide the source of the quotation. You failed to read it. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.

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