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Alpdruck
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:08:00 -
[31]
Give every ship two utility high slots, that can be used to fit anything from NOS to cloak. Specialized ships, like covert ops, can get more.
With the addes HPs, BS already have more time to fight off gangs of smaller ships and escape.
Reducing EvE down to cap fighting sounds boring. And on SiSi, cap has become more important that ever. Even high DPS ships cannot hope to break tanks fast enough before the cap runs out. This makes NOS more important and even more useful than ever.
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infraX
Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:15:00 -
[32]
Edited by: infraX on 08/11/2006 10:16:49
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
*Fights are not (and will not be) decided only by how many NOS have been fitted. If you can stay out of NOS range (which is about 25 km at best) and pound your enemy from there, his low dps setup will not be much of a threat, and you will have a good chance of winning
Sorry, but the sad fact is fights ARE being decided on who has the most NOS on sisi at the moment. Remember I am talking about the test server here and what is happening in Kali, I'm not talking about anything that is happening on TQ currently. Also, this mentality excludes a vast range of ships and setups. Most meaningful combat takes place under 20km, because outside that range, the target just warps off. Also, try staying at +25km with blasters or even megapulses or even autos for that matter. Nobody likes fighting in falloff range.
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
*NOS are ++only++ cheap in terms of skill points. Everything else about them is expensive. They have high power grid requirements (they take more grid than ion blasters, and are just below neutrons). There is no skill that can lower these requirements (unlike for guns). NOS take up high power slots. Good named or T2 NOS are very expensive - typically more expensive than corresponding guns.
check the market and compare prices of T2 guns and NOS. You don't need uber expensive NOS to out-do T2 guns, the standard Heavy Nosferatu I will cut it and costs peanuts.
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
A Diminishing NOS is always more expensive than the corresponding T2 blaster, and harder to come by
I'm not suggesting that Diminishing NOS is causing a problem. It's any type of (heavy) NOS.
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
*NOS do not stop a missile, or projectile, or drone ship from shooting. They can only silence energy and hybrid guns (which, coincidentally, also come in long range versions)
NOS can still interfere with these ships more than guns in certain situations. Oh and I'm glad its ONLY hybrids and energy turrets that are affected - that's half of the weapons in the game (drones are auxilliary in most cases and all races can use drones).
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
*My main objection: ANY nerf to NOS will make smaller ships, especially AFs, overpowered against bigger ships. Right now, NOS is the best defense a bigger ship can mount. Without their NOS, battleships will be very easy prey to roaming frig gangs. It really should take more than 3-4 frigs to kill a BS!
Now go back and re-read my post ffs. This is NOT the argument. For the love of god go back and READ the post.
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Disclaimer: I don't own a Domi, or any battleship, for that matter... I use NOS sparingly in my cruiser and frig setups. Yes, I have been drained by other people, and lost fights because of that. I fly Gallente blaster ships. Yet, I think that NOS are just fine. Problems with nerfs are the law of unintended consequences, and the fact that once nerfs start, they never end...
...and you've probably not seen the changes on sisi yet and don't sound experienced enough to make an informed comment on current battleship warware in the new patch. This thread is about NOS becoming the norm above ships using other weapon types as their main fitting - because Kali invites pilots to do that with the changes made. It's not about nerfing NOS against smaller ships or making it so that small ships can't use a NOS or two to help support their cap. That's not it at all.
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Arakk
Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:25:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Eclipsen413 nerfing nos = no more blaster boats. simple. if they cannot sustain cap who will use them?
definatley not, standard blasterthron setup involves no nos, you use cap boosters for cap in order to tank and shoot.
next i saw someone say stay out of range...WTF? blasters mean youre within 500m-10k...a good vamp setup is using at minimum 4 hvy diminishings at 25k range...a range that allows you to hit anything coming out of a gate...pretty much anything AT ALL unless you just got warped in on or youre in a fleet battle.
i fly dominix pvp from time to time and its a vamp domi is the most overpowered thing ever. and its not because of the ship...its because of NOS. a 60 mil isk battleship can take on 2 100+mil isk battleships ez by itself if flown properly, only exception is if one of them has ecm out the ass.
Basically anything running around with 4+heavy nos is what i like to call a mini deathstar, any ship thats within that 25k sphere when you hover over your hvy nos...will die.
TBH i'd like to see a drastic cap recharge rate increase on all ships...removal of nos from the game, nerf energy neutralizers and remove the cap cost on them.
Either that or DRASTICALLY increase the activation time on all nos. possibly double it.
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Thaelan
Deviance Inc SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:26:00 -
[34]
adding a stacking penalty for multiple nos on a single target would be likly to work quite well
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infraX
Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:37:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Thaelan adding a stacking penalty for multiple nos on a single target would be likly to work quite well
Didn't think of that. This way, multiple NOS setups would be fine in a gang situation when you have one ship whose role is just to NOS stuff down.
I haven't thought about ships like the curse or baahlgorn. I think if there was some sort of stacking nerf, either on the modules themselves, or the targets being NOS'd, these ships should get an additional bonus to counter that so that they remain unaffected by something that is meant to nerf all other ships fitting loads of NOS.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:54:00 -
[36]
Edited by: murder one on 08/11/2006 10:55:09
Originally by: infraX
Originally by: Thaelan adding a stacking penalty for multiple nos on a single target would be likly to work quite well
Didn't think of that. This way, multiple NOS setups would be fine in a gang situation when you have one ship whose role is just to NOS stuff down.
I haven't thought about ships like the curse or baahlgorn. I think if there was some sort of stacking nerf, either on the modules themselves, or the targets being NOS'd, these ships should get an additional bonus to counter that so that they remain unaffected by something that is meant to nerf all other ships fitting loads of NOS.
Just limit everyone to 1 nos per ship, with the exception of the curse/baahlgorn etc.
Because I said so...
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Kristoffer
Amarr Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2006.11.08 15:24:00 -
[37]
Originally by: murder one Edited by: murder one on 08/11/2006 10:55:09
Just limit everyone to 1 nos per ship, with the exception of the curse/baahlgorn etc.
Agree
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Izekeil Fel
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:24:00 -
[38]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Orin Fatch Edited by: Orin Fatch on 08/11/2006 07:50:41
Originally by: Gordon Red There should be an limit of max fitted NOS, like there is a ship limit for turret- or missleslots.
for example: 5xhigh, 4xturret, 2xNOS => you could max fit 4xturrets and 1xNOS or 3xturrets and 2xNOS
I agree, A limited amount of lets say 'miscelaneos' Hard Points per ship, Thus depending on its role, and what it can do.
That would cover, Nosferatu, Tractor beams, remote rep's, etc
I vote for ONE "utility" hardpoint per ship. Problem solved. Then you'd see ships with mods that they were actually intended to be used for: guns and missiles etc. Not eight nos.
Hooray finally some sensible ideas coming through on the nos front, make it a hardpoint type and you instantly stop the full nos vampire setups.... Tux should pay attention *cough*
http://www.eg0clan.co.uk/Eve/izedeimos.jpg
Please keep your signature below the 24000 bytes limit.- Thx Pirlouit
Recruitment
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Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.11.09 00:14:00 -
[39]
Originally by: infraX
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
*My main objection: ANY nerf to NOS will make smaller ships, especially AFs, overpowered against bigger ships. Right now, NOS is the best defense a bigger ship can mount. Without their NOS, battleships will be very easy prey to roaming frig gangs. It really should take more than 3-4 frigs to kill a BS!
Now go back and re-read my post ffs. This is NOT the argument. For the love of god go back and READ the post.
Yes, I did read your post the first time, and I do realize that it is not a post that advocates a NOS nerf in order to help smaller ships kill big ones. However... Any NOS nerf will automatically make AFs overpowered against battleships. Especially battleships that primarily rely on turrets. There is no way around it. If the number of NOS is limited, you won't be able to defend against multiple targets. If suckage is limited, well... NOS are dead. I think that current problems on the test server are not due to the NOS themselves - they are due to the HP increase with no corresponding cap increase (which is not a good idea if the goal is to make fights longer). A boost to cap boosters can also help here (shorten the cycle time, increase capacity).
The argument about staggered NOS activation is valid, I have to admit, and one nerf to large NOS I would be in favor of is the range nerf. Make the range of a basic Large Nos I 18 km, and set the range of the Diminishing to 20500. Problem solved: ships with large NOSes can now be scrambled from 20 km (unless the pilot spends a lot of money on the Diminishing NOS).
However, I see nothing wrong with NOSsing the enemy ships into oblivion (so that your enemy cannot repair or fire back). The game would not be more interesting if everyone will simply fit guns all the time and shoot them. I think that NOS is a very nice counterweight to cap-intensive, high DPS setups - and a completely valid one. Yes, if you fly a short range Armageddon or a Blasterthron and go against a VampDomi, you *should* lose most of the time. Likewise, if you are in a VampDomi, you should lose most of the time to Rokh or Raven that can stay out of your NOS range and hit you from there. And you should lose to a VampDomi with more NOS - NOS being your primary weapons system, it is not surprising.
If NOS were to be nerfed, there will be one less viable combat strategy in the game. Fights between two equal BSes will be won by the pilot who has more/better guns and gun skills. I don't see how is that "better" than the NOS...
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Miss Overlord
Gallente EUROPEANS
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Posted - 2006.11.09 00:21:00 -
[40]
previously as has been done if something is overpowered CCP introduce sub devisions new skills new modules
Perhaps NOS ships could get a sig increase when activated ( or at least the named ones) perhaps a ECM module that attacks just NOS on a cycle basis ( CCP have said the overheating aspect is being introduced at some point) anti NOS weapons that cycle % disable a NOS cycle could be a mid range solution
Range nerf or cap increase or perhaps new cap rechargers
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Tuschii
Pirates of Destruction Union
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Posted - 2006.11.09 00:48:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Thaelan adding a stacking penalty for multiple nos on a single target would be likly to work quite well
Just as I was thinking. /siggity signed
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Miss Overlord
Gallente EUROPEANS
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:06:00 -
[42]
how severe would be stacking penalty have to be
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Susa Ou
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:33:00 -
[43]
Diminishing Returns on NoS. The more you fit, the less it affects the mod = problem solved.
Blasterthons almost never fit more then 2, so there will be little to no effect. Domis will suffer - or - they will finally be used as the uber blaster/drone setup ---
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Hanns
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:45:00 -
[44]
How long have i had my sig, and now people start agreeing
Originally by: Tuxford a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
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Xoduse
Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:12:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Xoduse on 09/11/2006 02:17:05
Originally by: Eclipsen413 Edited by: Eclipsen413 on 08/11/2006 06:11:47
Originally by: Zurtur
Originally by: Eclipsen413 nerfing nos = no more blaster boats. simple. if they cannot sustain cap who will use them?
We are talking about full NOS setups here...
yeah but what about the people who use one or two nos to keep ther cap up? i dont think they will be happy about a nos nerf. i know im not. thers a way to counter nos people (STAY OUT OF RANGE) why nerf nos when u can avoid it so easily
If find it very ironic you make this statement and have a deimos in your sig. A ship whose cap is so easily broken by nos due to the lack of room for a cap booster. nos is a much larger enemy to blaster ships than a friend, getting sucked on by more than one nos means the blasterboat will quit doing damage before its opponent due to no cap. And in Kali fights are all about how long your cap lasts, no more quick blaster style ganks.
EDIT: BTW all the standard Taranis, Thorax, Brutix, and Megathron blaster setups involve no nos and all utilize all their turret hardpoints to the fullest degree. Not so in Kali, its a shame to see turret hardpoints traded for NOS. ---------------------
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Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.09 07:13:00 -
[46]
How much of this is attributable to the testing environment? On SISI folks are mostly flying solo/1v1s or FFA. In those situations NOS is king. In a gang damage rules and NOS is relegated to support.
The single nos hardpoint per ship is a pretty crazy idea. Many fitting options is a good thing, not shoehorning everyone into a particular setup. Yes there are some potential areas of concern in interclass balance with nos (well at the battleship level, because nos range = scramble range), but fittings other than guns are good.
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