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infraX
Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:36:00 -
[1]
*dons flameproof suit*
I can't believe that I'm starting a topic with this title! ..but hear me out.
I've been playing on the Kali test a bit and use lots of different ship types and setups, trying to get a feel for how this increased hp thing works. To my horror, it seems that setups with lots of NOS seem to be extremely effective with this new flavour of EVE. Fights are lasting a long time and there is plenty of time to NOS somebody down and chip away at them slowly with a low dps setup. Something like 4 heavy NOS and 4 autocannons or missile launchers + any drones does the trick. Cap booster charges only last for so long and if you are flying a cap hungry ship like a blasterthron or one of those shiny new Abaddons, you find that even if you have charges left, you can't fire them off fast enough to support your guns and your tank. Ultimately, you cap out or run out of cap completely and then just sit there defenseless for the whole fight. I don't think this is what they had in mind when they wanted to prolong combat - ships sat there for 10 minutes getting chipped away to nothing while all they can do is watch.
Now I'm not one of these people that believes that heavy NOS should be nerfed against smaller ships, that's not my point here. I think bigger ships should have some defenses against smaller ships but when it comes to a point that big ships are fitting a very cheap (in terms of skillpoints, skill, cost, and ease of use) module, above something like a rack of guns which they have trianed for and it is more effective; something is very wrong! It tips the balance waaaay in favour of ships with capless weapon systems aswell.
Now I'm not one to just cry about something without offering some sort of solution. A couple of things come to mind. I don't think it's unreasonable to fit one or two heavy NOS on a battleship, its the people that are fitting a lot more than 2 that annoy me! it's making the game very predictable and boring and taking all the skill and fun out of the fights. The easiest solution that comes to mind is a simple stacking nerf. Just how they stopped everyone fitting 8 damage mods on a geddon and melting other battleships in 10 seconds flat. So if you fit one or two there is no penalty (or something teeny and hardly noticable for the second) but if you start going for 3,4,5 etc then they should start to become so ineffective to the point of sillyness. People will be forced to fit guns or launchers instead. It's either that or nerf it the way they did with the multiple MWD setups that people used to hoon around with and limit the amount of NOS you can fit - personally I think this isn't a good solution but it wouldn't be the first time they've implemented this.
So what do you guys think? Do you agree that tons of NOS is making fights uninteresting because everyone is fitting loads of it and making fights all about NOS because its the best way to win now and if so, what are your thoughts about how to control this or nerf it somehow?
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Sir Juri
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:38:00 -
[2]
Its time for a change atleast. We got ECM fixed, stabs, dampeners have a penalty and... well you might be right.
**** need to make a new sig... |
Commander Thrawn
Tarnak inc. Eternal Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:43:00 -
[3]
make it a 25% hp boost instead of 50% and reduce the cap usage for lasers and hybrids
make missiles and AC require some cap, although very little
as for the abbadon, its just useless
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:49:00 -
[4]
Leave HP where it is, reduce blaster cap use by 50% Increase Void damage by 100%. Problem solved.
Because I said so...
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Commander Thrawn
Tarnak inc. Eternal Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.08 01:15:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 08/11/2006 01:15:02
Originally by: murder one Leave HP where it is, reduce blaster cap use by 50% Increase Void damage by 100%. Problem solved.
how Gallente of you
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Good Sir
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2006.11.08 02:10:00 -
[6]
Tbh, the whole 50% increase in hitpoints was just way too extreme. It has caused so much trouble. Without that, a lot of the new ships would be actually not be as bad, abbaddon/hype especially. Sure the abbaddon has serious cap issues, but you can likely kill something decently fast with it and before cap runs out if the hp values remain where they are at in rmr. The nos thing is also very true due to the new hp increase, and it does make for very boring fights. I had a myr v myr fight, and it was a stale mate the first time, I died the second due to others interupting, tho it looked like it could have been another stalemate due to cap running out.
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Rule2k
Fate.
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Posted - 2006.11.08 02:30:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Rule2k on 08/11/2006 02:31:31
Originally by: infraXI don't think it's unreasonable to fit one or two heavy NOS on a battleship, its the people that are fitting a lot more than 2 that annoy me! it's making the game very predictable and boring and taking all the skill and fun out of the fights.
/signed
first time ive ever said that on a forum aswell
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Miss Overlord
Gallente EUROPEANS
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Posted - 2006.11.08 02:33:00 -
[8]
what happeend to the planned anti NOS modules that CCp were talking about
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 04:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Miss Overlord what happeend to the planned anti NOS modules that CCp were talking about
Who cares. I dont want to fit anti-nos mods. I want to fit guns.
Because I said so...
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Avoid
Gallente Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2006.11.08 04:30:00 -
[10]
Well the way it seems atm is that, the only thing that can make u win a battle is to nos your target down.
Nerf it ? and the battles will last forever. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes "Here was the brand of the cigerates i smoke"
I don't smoke - Cortes |
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 04:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Avoid Well the way it seems atm is that, the only thing that can make u win a battle is to nos your target down.
Nerf it ? and the battles will last forever.
ummm, up damage? just a thought...
Because I said so...
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Cadiz
Caldari No Quarter. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.08 04:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn make it a 25% hp boost instead of 50% and reduce the cap usage for lasers and hybrids
make missiles and AC require some cap, although very little
as for the abbadon, its just useless
25% hit point boost, 25% capacitor boost, 25% cap recharge rate increase (to stay in line with the capacity increase). Nos gets indirectly nerfed because people have more capacitor reserves therefore requiring more time to get full effect, it gives do-or-die cap-hungry gankships like the Blasterthron more time before running dry, and it gives more room for unsustainable active tanks to do their thing before requiring cap booster intervention.
And the Abbadon will make an awesome tank-miner. The Apocalypse shall be retired entirely in its utility role; all hail the 8x MDCM II Abbadon with uber-tank! ------ Quartermaster, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence." |
Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.08 04:39:00 -
[13]
I wish they'd remove nos from the game.
I'd much rather fly a Raven with 6 launchers and 2 turrets or see Apocs with 7 laser turrets and a launcher than silly nos setups.
They are boring and in a lot of cases many fights come down to who has the most nos, yawn. ===================
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Gordon Red
SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.08 05:02:00 -
[14]
There should be an limit of max fitted NOS, like there is a ship limit for turret- or missleslots.
for example: 5xhigh, 4xturret, 2xNOS => you could max fit 4xturrets and 1xNOS or 3xturrets and 2xNOS
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Eclipsen413
Gallente KNIGHTS OF THE ROUND Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.11.08 05:44:00 -
[15]
nerfing nos = no more blaster boats. simple. if they cannot sustain cap who will use them?
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Zurtur
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.08 05:48:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Eclipsen413 nerfing nos = no more blaster boats. simple. if they cannot sustain cap who will use them?
We are talking about full NOS setups here... -
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr When my armor repair's itself, then you can come moan about that.
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Eclipsen413
Gallente KNIGHTS OF THE ROUND Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.11.08 06:08:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Eclipsen413 on 08/11/2006 06:11:47
Originally by: Zurtur
Originally by: Eclipsen413 nerfing nos = no more blaster boats. simple. if they cannot sustain cap who will use them?
We are talking about full NOS setups here...
yeah but what about the people who use one or two nos to keep ther cap up? i dont think they will be happy about a nos nerf. i know im not. thers a way to counter nos people (STAY OUT OF RANGE) why nerf nos when u can avoid it so easily
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 07:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Eclipsen413 Edited by: Eclipsen413 on 08/11/2006 06:11:47
Originally by: Zurtur
Originally by: Eclipsen413 nerfing nos = no more blaster boats. simple. if they cannot sustain cap who will use them?
We are talking about full NOS setups here...
yeah but what about the people who use one or two nos to keep ther cap up? i dont think they will be happy about a nos nerf. i know im not. thers a way to counter nos people (STAY OUT OF RANGE) why nerf nos when u can avoid it so easily
go fly a blaster ship. Then tell me how I'm supposed to stay out of range. Do you even listen to what you're saying before you post it?
Because I said so...
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Orin Fatch
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.08 07:48:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Orin Fatch on 08/11/2006 07:50:41
Originally by: Gordon Red There should be an limit of max fitted NOS, like there is a ship limit for turret- or missleslots.
for example: 5xhigh, 4xturret, 2xNOS => you could max fit 4xturrets and 1xNOS or 3xturrets and 2xNOS
I agree, A limited amount of lets say 'miscelaneos' Hard Points per ship, Thus depending on its role, and what it can do.
That would cover, Nosferatu, Tractor beams, remote rep's, etc
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Kristoffer
Amarr Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2006.11.08 07:58:00 -
[20]
Yeah, a utility hitpoint of sorts. That seems like the best way to go about it.
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Altai Saker
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:01:00 -
[21]
I am very worried about the state of the game if nos don't take a very harsh nerf.
To me it seems that in Kali cap warfare will be the absolute be all end all of pvp. Any ship without atleast 2 nos will probably not be able to run it's guns not to mention an active tank.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:18:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Orin Fatch Edited by: Orin Fatch on 08/11/2006 07:50:41
Originally by: Gordon Red There should be an limit of max fitted NOS, like there is a ship limit for turret- or missleslots.
for example: 5xhigh, 4xturret, 2xNOS => you could max fit 4xturrets and 1xNOS or 3xturrets and 2xNOS
I agree, A limited amount of lets say 'miscelaneos' Hard Points per ship, Thus depending on its role, and what it can do.
That would cover, Nosferatu, Tractor beams, remote rep's, etc
I vote for ONE "utility" hardpoint per ship. Problem solved. Then you'd see ships with mods that they were actually intended to be used for: guns and missiles etc. Not eight nos.
Because I said so...
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Levin Cavil
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:48:00 -
[23]
Nerf them pls, they've been uber since they lost their activation cost.
cap denial = teh lame. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari |
Archi Viralfury
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:49:00 -
[24]
I think we should all wait for the "Anti-nos" items to arrive in the game, and as far as i was aware they would use rig slots although its all been rumor.
I would like to see an anti-nos in the game, but i dont think that nos should be nerfed, as a gallente pilot nos is a lifeline that if taken away will render most gallente ships alot less useable.
Like has been stated so many times before, nosferatu is not overpowered, it is easily avoidable by most and by the select fiew that come close range, they either use it or counter it with cap boosters.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:06:00 -
[25]
A stacking penalty would be a start. Hardpoints per ship is one way, but I'd have no problem with a all-nos setup if it had a stacking penalty - you'd just have to nos several targets.
I'd prefer a stacking penalty _and_ a resistance module because even a single nos can really screw with your cap in long battles. Just one heavy diminishing nos drains 11 cap/sec ... an Apocalypse's capacitor with full skills and ship bonus regenerates 26 cap/sec at peak the average regeneration is 10.83 cap/sec. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Joshua Foiritain
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:07:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 08/11/2006 09:08:49
Originally by: Archi Viralfury I think we should all wait for the "Anti-nos" items to arrive in the game, and as far as i was aware they would use rig slots although its all been rumor.
They wont change anything tbh, unless a single one completely removes the effects of nosf most ships wont have room for them.
Originally by: Archi Viralfury I would like to see an anti-nos in the game, but i dont think that nos should be nerfed, as a gallente pilot nos is a lifeline that if taken away will render most gallente ships alot less useable.
Like has been stated so many times before, nosferatu is not overpowered, it is easily avoidable by most and by the select fiew that come close range, they either use it or counter it with cap boosters.
Tbh nosf provide a bigger threat then a benefit to Gallente ships, we cant even run our guns and armor rep using cap boosters, how on earth are we gonna cope with 2+ nosf on us as well? We can't, well use up cap boosters at an even faster rate and run out of them well before we're half way through the fight.
I agree that it's not overpowered on TQ and that cap boosters provide a good counter, this however is no longer the case on Sisi.
Gallente ships need a bonus towards cap booster size, since a flat out reduction in size would overpower other races. -----
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:29:00 -
[27]
Why, why, why? NOS are just fine! Leave them as is! Every complaint I have seen in this thread (and in multiple threads before that) comes from people who lose fights to NOS-equipped ships, but don't want to change their fighting style.
*NOS already have the counterpart defensive modules in game. Cap boosters, and... your own NOS! Remember that small NOS have a very short cycle time, thus, you run tackling modules even if you are being drained yourself. I know that for sure, because I have been scrambled more than once by frigs, and my 3 medium NOS did not help me a whole lot
*Fights are not (and will not be) decided only by how many NOS have been fitted. If you can stay out of NOS range (which is about 25 km at best) and pound your enemy from there, his low dps setup will not be much of a threat, and you will have a good chance of winning
*NOS are ++only++ cheap in terms of skill points. Everything else about them is expensive. They have high power grid requirements (they take more grid than ion blasters, and are just below neutrons). There is no skill that can lower these requirements (unlike for guns). NOS take up high power slots. Good named or T2 NOS are very expensive - typically more expensive than corresponding guns. A Diminishing NOS is always more expensive than the corresponding T2 blaster, and harder to come by
*NOS do not stop a missile, or projectile, or drone ship from shooting. They can only silence energy and hybrid guns (which, coincidentally, also come in long range versions)
*My main objection: ANY nerf to NOS will make smaller ships, especially AFs, overpowered against bigger ships. Right now, NOS is the best defense a bigger ship can mount. Without their NOS, battleships will be very easy prey to roaming frig gangs. It really should take more than 3-4 frigs to kill a BS!
Disclaimer: I don't own a Domi, or any battleship, for that matter... I use NOS sparingly in my cruiser and frig setups. Yes, I have been drained by other people, and lost fights because of that. I fly Gallente blaster ships. Yet, I think that NOS are just fine. Problems with nerfs are the law of unintended consequences, and the fact that once nerfs start, they never end...
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:52:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller Why, why, why? NOS are just fine! Leave them as is! Every complaint I have seen in this thread (and in multiple threads before that) comes from people who lose fights to NOS-equipped ships, but don't want to change their fighting style.
*NOS already have the counterpart defensive modules in game. Cap boosters, and... your own NOS! Remember that small NOS have a very short cycle time, thus, you run tackling modules even if you are being drained yourself. I know that for sure, because I have been scrambled more than once by frigs, and my 3 medium NOS did not help me a whole lot
*Fights are not (and will not be) decided only by how many NOS have been fitted. If you can stay out of NOS range (which is about 25 km at best) and pound your enemy from there, his low dps setup will not be much of a threat, and you will have a good chance of winning
*NOS are ++only++ cheap in terms of skill points. Everything else about them is expensive. They have high power grid requirements (they take more grid than ion blasters, and are just below neutrons). There is no skill that can lower these requirements (unlike for guns). NOS take up high power slots. Good named or T2 NOS are very expensive - typically more expensive than corresponding guns. A Diminishing NOS is always more expensive than the corresponding T2 blaster, and harder to come by
*NOS do not stop a missile, or projectile, or drone ship from shooting. They can only silence energy and hybrid guns (which, coincidentally, also come in long range versions)
*My main objection: ANY nerf to NOS will make smaller ships, especially AFs, overpowered against bigger ships. Right now, NOS is the best defense a bigger ship can mount. Without their NOS, battleships will be very easy prey to roaming frig gangs. It really should take more than 3-4 frigs to kill a BS!
Disclaimer: I don't own a Domi, or any battleship, for that matter... I use NOS sparingly in my cruiser and frig setups. Yes, I have been drained by other people, and lost fights because of that. I fly Gallente blaster ships. Yet, I think that NOS are just fine. Problems with nerfs are the law of unintended consequences, and the fact that once nerfs start, they never end...
Stay out of range? Everyone is supposed to fit faction 190m+ ISK 30km domination scrams on their cruisers? I think that it's ridiculous that the ONLY defence against nos is another nos, more nos, or more nos/neuts. It's stupid and it dumbs down gameplay when you just have to assume off the top that you HAVE to fit 1-2 nos just to make sure you don't die from cap death.
EVERY fight on test so far has been a cap death fight. Target runs out of cap, then runs out of armor. The fights are only longer because you have to remove 100% of their cap first before continuing on to their armor. It's stupid and needs to stop.
Because I said so...
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infraX
Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:53:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Eclipsen413 Edited by: Eclipsen413 on 08/11/2006 06:11:47
Originally by: Zurtur
Originally by: Eclipsen413 nerfing nos = no more blaster boats. simple. if they cannot sustain cap who will use them?
We are talking about full NOS setups here...
yeah but what about the people who use one or two nos to keep ther cap up? i dont think they will be happy about a nos nerf. i know im not. thers a way to counter nos people (STAY OUT OF RANGE) why nerf nos when u can avoid it so easily
Please re-read my post. I think 1 or 2 NOS to maintain cap and fend off smaller ships is fine. I'm talking about setups that have all or mostly NOS instead of traditional setups where people actually fit guns and launchers with only one or two NOS.
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Alpdruck
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:03:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller Why, why, why? *NOS already have the counterpart defensive modules in game. Cap boosters, and... your own NOS!
A module as a counter to itself? Great idea. And many ships already need capboosters to be able to fight at all. Blasterthrons and many Amarr BS setups simply need boosters to fire their guns, use MWD and reppers. Some weapons use a lot of cap and cannot be used without boosters at all, especially with the added HPs.
Originally by: Quilan Ziller *Fights are not (and will not be) decided only by how many NOS have been fitted. If you can stay out of NOS range (which is about 25 km at best) and pound your enemy from there, his low dps setup will not be much of a threat, and you will have a good chance of winning
You cannot win a fight at 25km, because everybody can simply warp out. And a lot of weapon systems force you to get inside NOS range. Ever heard of short range weapons like blasters?
The rest of your points do not need refuting, they are simply nonsense.
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