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Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar
Shurekin INC
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Posted - 2006.11.08 02:25:00 -
[1]
Ive been trying to figure out why he did it. What Does it balance that needed balancing etc. Ive been trying to wrap my head around it but I cant find a answer that makes sense. Anyone have any Theories other than to boost caldari and make fights longer?
If your reading this tux a reply might be nice but I know your a busy guy 
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Miss Overlord
Gallente
EUROPEANS
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Posted - 2006.11.08 02:29:00 -
[2]
longer fights expect a lot more changes
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Father Weebles
RoadKill Pickup Services
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Posted - 2006.11.08 02:42:00 -
[3]
people wanted longer fights so ccp listened
too bad they didnt take into account the cap usage on blasters and lasers 
"Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control." |
Dalekplunger Slick
Caldari
DPS Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.08 02:52:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Dalekplunger Slick on 08/11/2006 02:52:03
If you increase HP 50% doesn't that mean the ship will last 50% longer in a fleet battle? When your life span in a fleet battle is 15 seconds if you're called primary, does making it 23 seconds really mean that much? |
Avoid
Gallente
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2006.11.08 04:43:00 -
[5]
So The dumbasses in CCP who plays eve, can log off when they get into a fight whitout getting there ship blown up before it disapperes in space.
Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes "Here was the brand of the cigerates i smoke"
I don't smoke - Cortes |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.08 05:43:00 -
[6]
The HP increase isnt so much for fleet battles as it is for nerfing solo piracy in low sec.. Which in my opinion was waaaay to easy to do.. Just look at the vast expanse of empty systems and belts to verify that.. When I'm in low sec there are usually a few players in pos's and a few more at a station and even then thats kinda rare.. As soon as I make the first jump to a high sec system the local is overflowing with players.. This is an attempt to draw more players into the unused regions by at least giving them a chance to evade sniper camps and solo gankers.. I hear pirates whine all the time about the lack of targets and waa waa waaa dont nerf piracy even more but lets face it guys.. THE CURRENT GAME MECHANICS MAKE IT FAAAAAR TO EASY TO PIRATE AND AS A RESULT YOU RAN EVERYONE OFF! No carebear or even a decently skilled player has a chance in hell of making a living in low sec without the constant chance of getting pwnd by a random solo pirate.. Well risk vs reward you say and I agree but TBH its just not worth the average players time to grind in high sec to get a nice ship and fittings and then as soon as they get into low sec or shortly after..
*POP*
I'm liking the changes I see so far as they force everyone to group up to have any chance of killing even a relatively new player.. Eve is supposed to be brutal you say.. Well yes it is but not so much so as to have no chance at all in a 1 vs 1.. Warp to 0km if implimented should hopefully draw more players into low sec with the promise of safer travel.. The HP boost should even out the playing field so that people wont die within seconds after being attacked.. So if this will allow more people into the unused regions then target selection goes up and with the increased chance of escaping more people will stay.. Eventually pirates will figure out new ways of ganking and thats all and well.. But for cripes sake at least let the lake get restocked before you try to fish it out again.. 
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" |
Good Sir
Gallente
Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2006.11.08 05:53:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
The HP increase isnt so much for fleet battles as it is for nerfing solo piracy in low sec.. Which in my opinion was waaaay to easy to do.. Just look at the vast expanse of empty systems and belts to verify that.. When I'm in low sec there are usually a few players in pos's and a few more at a station and even then thats kinda rare.. As soon as I make the first jump to a high sec system the local is overflowing with players.. This is an attempt to draw more players into the unused regions by at least giving them a chance to evade sniper camps and solo gankers.. I hear pirates whine all the time about the lack of targets and waa waa waaa dont nerf piracy even more but lets face it guys.. THE CURRENT GAME MECHANICS MAKE IT FAAAAAR TO EASY TO PIRATE AND AS A RESULT YOU RAN EVERYONE OFF! No carebear or even a decently skilled player has a chance in hell of making a living in low sec without the constant chance of getting pwnd by a random solo pirate.. Well risk vs reward you say and I agree but TBH its just not worth the average players time to grind in high sec to get a nice ship and fittings and then as soon as they get into low sec or shortly after..
*POP*
I'm liking the changes I see so far as they force everyone to group up to have any chance of killing even a relatively new player.. Eve is supposed to be brutal you say.. Well yes it is but not so much so as to have no chance at all in a 1 vs 1.. Warp to 0km if implimented should hopefully draw more players into low sec with the promise of safer travel.. The HP boost should even out the playing field so that people wont die within seconds after being attacked.. So if this will allow more people into the unused regions then target selection goes up and with the increased chance of escaping more people will stay.. Eventually pirates will figure out new ways of ganking and thats all and well.. But for cripes sake at least let the lake get restocked before you try to fish it out again..
Yes, but all it has turned eve into now is a cap war, ie very boreing fights. If noobs had it so hard in lowsec, travel in groups. Wise up, its that simple, and trust me, a 50% hp boost isnt going to save peeps in lowsec by a longshot, it will just prolong the agony.
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MECTO
Xenobytes
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.08 06:07:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dalekplunger Slick
Edited by: Dalekplunger Slick on 08/11/2006 02:52:03
If you increase HP 50% doesn't that mean the ship will last 50% longer in a fleet battle? When your life span in a fleet battle is 15 seconds if you're called primary, does making it 23 seconds really mean that much?
its more like "1 second" and "1.5 seconds" - 50% hp increase is a constant nerf to solo and small gang pvp only. Totaly Rubish
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford
In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Kristoffer
Amarr
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2006.11.08 06:10:00 -
[9]
The 50% hp buff have made small fights not fun at all. Its lame. We don't need 50% more HP. I want exciting fights, not 20 minutes of bordem where we play "who runs out of cap first"
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 06:46:00 -
[10]
Edited by: murder one on 08/11/2006 06:48:45
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
*useless crap*
Right now PVP combat is *extremely polarized. Know what that means? It means that everything is almost exactly the same. Nos fights, cap injectors, and who loses is who had less nos and/or less cap charges.
I made a Myrmidon with 5x medium nos, 1 medium neutralizer and a dual rep tank. I could cripple any BC and kill it, and could do the same to most BS, as long as they didn't have their own nos.
If you want people to move to low sec, you're going to have to FORCE them out. remove all L3 and L4 missions from high sec. Remove all minerals from high sec, except for the sparest of low value asteroids. And even then severely limit their respawn rates. Simply make it impossible to earn a decent living in high sec. Problem solved.
Players will NEVER move into a higher risk area unless specifically forced to do so.
Because I said so...
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.08 07:42:00 -
[11]
Originally by: murder one
Edited by: murder one on 08/11/2006 06:48:45
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
*useless crap*
Right now PVP combat is *extremely polarized. Know what that means? It means that everything is almost exactly the same. Nos fights, cap injectors, and who loses is who had less nos and/or less cap charges.
I made a Myrmidon with 5x medium nos, 1 medium neutralizer and a dual rep tank. I could cripple any BC and kill it, and could do the same to most BS, as long as they didn't have their own nos.
If you want people to move to low sec, you're going to have to FORCE them out. remove all L3 and L4 missions from high sec. Remove all minerals from high sec, except for the sparest of low value asteroids. And even then severely limit their respawn rates. Simply make it impossible to earn a decent living in high sec. Problem solved.
Players will NEVER move into a higher risk area unless specifically forced to do so.
combat was a lot more fun before they made nos/neuts a must have module
===================
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 07:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Captain Raynor
Originally by: murder one
Edited by: murder one on 08/11/2006 06:48:45
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
*useless crap*
Right now PVP combat is *extremely polarized. Know what that means? It means that everything is almost exactly the same. Nos fights, cap injectors, and who loses is who had less nos and/or less cap charges.
I made a Myrmidon with 5x medium nos, 1 medium neutralizer and a dual rep tank. I could cripple any BC and kill it, and could do the same to most BS, as long as they didn't have their own nos.
If you want people to move to low sec, you're going to have to FORCE them out. remove all L3 and L4 missions from high sec. Remove all minerals from high sec, except for the sparest of low value asteroids. And even then severely limit their respawn rates. Simply make it impossible to earn a decent living in high sec. Problem solved.
Players will NEVER move into a higher risk area unless specifically forced to do so.
combat was a lot more fun before they made nos/neuts a must have module
Agreed. On test I've become a "nos terrorist" lol. I just fly around with any all-nos setup I can think of and *****people left right and center. Then they flip out and complain. I figure if I do it enough and **** off enough people, then maybe the thousands of players that I kill with nos might actually voice their concerns loudly enough to be heard by the Devs.
Because I said so...
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Ferocious FeAr
Sha Kharn Corp
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:24:00 -
[13]
Kali should be renamed to "Battlecruisers Only"
Oh and say goodbye to hacs, they are completely pointless to fly.
Brilliant stuff.
__________________________________
Don't hate me, learn to love me. |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.11.08 08:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ferocious FeAr
Kali should be renamed to "Battlecruisers Only"
Oh and say goodbye to hacs, they are completely pointless to fly.
Brilliant stuff.
TBH, I welcome this change. HACs are overpriced and the people who make them just gouge the rest of the players for as much ISK as possible. THANK GOD I have another choice of ship now besides an uninsurable 260m+ ISK r@pe machine.
Because I said so...
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Avoid
Gallente
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
The HP increase isnt so much for fleet battles as it is for nerfing solo piracy in low sec.. Which in my opinion was waaaay to easy to do.. Just look at the vast expanse of empty systems and belts to verify that.. When I'm in low sec there are usually a few players in pos's and a few more at a station and even then thats kinda rare.. As soon as I make the first jump to a high sec system the local is overflowing with players.. This is an attempt to draw more players into the unused regions by at least giving them a chance to evade sniper camps and solo gankers.. I hear pirates whine all the time about the lack of targets and waa waa waaa dont nerf piracy even more but lets face it guys.. THE CURRENT GAME MECHANICS MAKE IT FAAAAAR TO EASY TO PIRATE AND AS A RESULT YOU RAN EVERYONE OFF! No carebear or even a decently skilled player has a chance in hell of making a living in low sec without the constant chance of getting pwnd by a random solo pirate.. Well risk vs reward you say and I agree but TBH its just not worth the average players time to grind in high sec to get a nice ship and fittings and then as soon as they get into low sec or shortly after..
*POP*
I'm liking the changes I see so far as they force everyone to group up to have any chance of killing even a relatively new player.. Eve is supposed to be brutal you say.. Well yes it is but not so much so as to have no chance at all in a 1 vs 1.. Warp to 0km if implimented should hopefully draw more players into low sec with the promise of safer travel.. The HP boost should even out the playing field so that people wont die within seconds after being attacked.. So if this will allow more people into the unused regions then target selection goes up and with the increased chance of escaping more people will stay.. Eventually pirates will figure out new ways of ganking and thats all and well.. But for cripes sake at least let the lake get restocked before you try to fish it out again..
The reason why no normal people use low sec space, is that there is no things to do in there, Its not worth mining in there as there is 2k farmers and macro miners in high sec, lowering the price on ore even more.
Those low sec systems were there is lv 4 againts, are very used systems. And the chance to get shot down by rats is bigger then by pirates.
Its not that much a nerf to solo piracy, as you now can use a tier2 bc, tank the sentrys and catch all haulsers jumping into you.
The only thing that can hurt you if you go into low sec whit a bs of your own, is 2 or 3 battleships on the gate when you jump into a system. If you dont want to die to that, fit an mwd and go back for the gate.
Iv lost more ships to concord then to low sec pirates, so its not that risky as you say.
"they force everyone to group up to have any chance of killing even a relatively new player.. "
There is a word for that thing, its called ganking, and yes it will be used even more, Its not fun at all but thats were pvp will go. Longer fights ?
Why go kill smtg alone when your target now will have 10 minutes to call in every player in a radius of 5 jumps away? No it will be some nber gank squads that will nuke solo targets in 20 secs and get the hell out.
Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes "Here was the brand of the cigerates i smoke"
I don't smoke - Cortes |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 05:08:00 -
[16]
You realize Avoid and murder one that you guys are a relative minority in eve? Current game mechanics give you all the advantages to kill at will.. You have a different psychological makeup than the majority of players.. Your aggresive and intelligent and milk the game mechanics for all they are worth and a few percent more.. Thats rare in any game.. Now CCP has to deal with the fact that the 80% of the playerbase that pays the bills so you can be the terror of eve needs some lovin so you can have some targets again.. They are timid and docile but they pay their monthly fee same as you to play the game as they enjoy it.. How can you not see that your ganking your way to no game at all? If you move all good agents to low sec and not make it at least a bit easier to survive then they will just quit and go to another game that caters to them or stay in high sec.. They are not like you.. Both options leave you with no targets.. So yeah.. thats a win.. And to all those that say low sec has no rewards is full of crap.. I can make 10x more isk per hour mining and ratting in low sec than I ever could in high sec.. And 0.0 jumps that number up by quite a few factors of 10.. The problem is thats its far too easy to solo kill people with the current game mechanics.. I'm trusting CCP to know what they are about so that we can get the playerbase to get out of high sec.. Are these changes nerfing your playstyle? Yes I'm afraid they are.. But if your just a bit patient and let CCP restock your hunting grounds then maybe you can return to killing at will if there are enough prey to go around and not have evey kill drive yet another player back to the safety of Concord..
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" |
Goca
Minmatar
Steel Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.09 08:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
You realize Avoid and murder one that you guys are a relative minority in eve? Current game mechanics give you all the advantages to kill at will.. You have a different psychological makeup than the majority of players.. Your aggresive and intelligent and milk the game mechanics for all they are worth and a few percent more.. Thats rare in any game.. Now CCP has to deal with the fact that the 80% of the playerbase that pays the bills so you can be the terror of eve needs some lovin so you can have some targets again.. They are timid and docile but they pay their monthly fee same as you to play the game as they enjoy it.. How can you not see that your ganking your way to no game at all? If you move all good agents to low sec and not make it at least a bit easier to survive then they will just quit and go to another game that caters to them or stay in high sec.. They are not like you.. Both options leave you with no targets.. So yeah.. thats a win.. And to all those that say low sec has no rewards is full of crap.. I can make 10x more isk per hour mining and ratting in low sec than I ever could in high sec.. And 0.0 jumps that number up by quite a few factors of 10.. The problem is thats its far too easy to solo kill people with the current game mechanics.. I'm trusting CCP to know what they are about so that we can get the playerbase to get out of high sec.. Are these changes nerfing your playstyle? Yes I'm afraid they are.. But if your just a bit patient and let CCP restock your hunting grounds then maybe you can return to killing at will if there are enough prey to go around and not have evey kill drive yet another player back to the safety of Concord..
The argument you just made is bordering on nonsense, I'm sorry..
warp to 0km is MORE then enough to get people who actually want to go to 0.0 to go..
the rest it wouldn't matter if you could cyno wherever you wanted to go, they still wouldn't.
making ships harder to kill by pirates or anyone else means nothing, especially if all those people who do the PVP say screw it and leave..
I hate pirates (sorry guys ;) ) but they DO have a place in this game and an important one, nerfing the crap out of them kills an important aspect of this game.
warp to 0km hurts them a little possibly, they cannot get any non-afk players on the inbound side, but they still have a good chance on the outbound, but making ships 50% tougher to get makes them have to blob to score kills..
so more blobs, less people moving anywhere..
or no blobs at all and a ghost town with a bunch of 2 week characters flying around getting bored...
Your argument holds no water..
I is Goca |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 08:43:00 -
[18]
It holds no water to you because your not taking into consideration psychological motivations of players.. Your only seeing the statistical manifestation of the changes not the ones that truly influence the timid.. But like I stated before your probably an agressive player and don't need such things to motivate you..
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" |
Queen Hades
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 08:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Goca
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
You realize Avoid and murder one that you guys are a relative minority in eve? Current game mechanics give you all the advantages to kill at will.. You have a different psychological makeup than the majority of players.. Your aggresive and intelligent and milk the game mechanics for all they are worth and a few percent more.. Thats rare in any game.. Now CCP has to deal with the fact that the 80% of the playerbase that pays the bills so you can be the terror of eve needs some lovin so you can have some targets again.. They are timid and docile but they pay their monthly fee same as you to play the game as they enjoy it.. How can you not see that your ganking your way to no game at all? If you move all good agents to low sec and not make it at least a bit easier to survive then they will just quit and go to another game that caters to them or stay in high sec.. They are not like you.. Both options leave you with no targets.. So yeah.. thats a win.. And to all those that say low sec has no rewards is full of crap.. I can make 10x more isk per hour mining and ratting in low sec than I ever could in high sec.. And 0.0 jumps that number up by quite a few factors of 10.. The problem is thats its far too easy to solo kill people with the current game mechanics.. I'm trusting CCP to know what they are about so that we can get the playerbase to get out of high sec.. Are these changes nerfing your playstyle? Yes I'm afraid they are.. But if your just a bit patient and let CCP restock your hunting grounds then maybe you can return to killing at will if there are enough prey to go around and not have evey kill drive yet another player back to the safety of Concord..
The argument you just made is bordering on nonsense, I'm sorry..
warp to 0km is MORE then enough to get people who actually want to go to 0.0 to go..
the rest it wouldn't matter if you could cyno wherever you wanted to go, they still wouldn't.
making ships harder to kill by pirates or anyone else means nothing, especially if all those people who do the PVP say screw it and leave..
I hate pirates (sorry guys ;) ) but they DO have a place in this game and an important one, nerfing the crap out of them kills an important aspect of this game.
warp to 0km hurts them a little possibly, they cannot get any non-afk players on the inbound side, but they still have a good chance on the outbound, but making ships 50% tougher to get makes them have to blob to score kills..
so more blobs, less people moving anywhere..
or no blobs at all and a ghost town with a bunch of 2 week characters flying around getting bored...
Your argument holds no water..
100% agreed.
Pirates are the spice in Eve and 50% more hp makes Eve a game of "who has the bigger blob and the most nos wins".
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:09:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 09/11/2006 09:15:25
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 09/11/2006 09:10:49
And pirates with no targets are some mighty bored pirates no matter how uber/nonuber their killing potential.. What would you suggest to bring the unwashed masses to low sec so pirates can get some action? Seems to me thigns are a bit too spicey with the lack of anyone to hunt..  The way things are now you have deer hunters running around with abrams tanks to kill a Doe.. How long are the prey going to last with that kind of advantage? Oh wait thier aint any prey left so this whole line of debate is moot..
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" |
Queen Hades
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 09:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 09/11/2006 09:15:25
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 09/11/2006 09:10:49
And pirates with no targets are some mighty bored pirates no matter how uber/nonuber their killing potential.. What would you suggest to bring the unwashed masses to low sec so pirates can get some action? Seems to me thigns are a bit too spicey with the lack of anyone to hunt.. The way things are now you have deer hunters running around with abrams tanks to kill a Doe.. How long are the prey going to last with that kind of advantage? Oh wait thier aint any prey left so this whole line of debate is moot..
I didn't say that you're entirely wrong, but 50% more hp is the wrong solution. 50% hp increase means:
1. Passive shield tanking is king
2. Armor tanking is not feasible any more
3. Nos and possibly neuts will dominate the battlefield
4. Solo piracy will die, blob piracy (as we see it in certain low sec systems) will dominate
5. The game will lose action and speed
6. Because of 4. not a single carebear more than now will enter low sec (the new dawn for lowsec will rather come out of the "warp to 0" option)
Think it through... how can one sustain an armor tank without nos and / or double cap boosters?
Gallente ships with their affinity towards cap costly hybrid turrets and extreme cap costly armor tanks will suffer, as will Amarr ships (although I don't care for the slaverers).
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:38:00 -
[22]
But most pirates are solo killers.. And the 50% works for the pirate too.. Also remember the Devs havent released all the changes yet.. There may be a suprise or two coming.. They just love reading these threads though to milk the populace of ideas.. So keep on replying with whatever views you think best.. 
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" |
Rafein
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:50:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ferocious FeAr
Kali should be renamed to "Battlecruisers Only"
Oh and say goodbye to hacs, they are completely pointless to fly.
Brilliant stuff.
Two points on that complaint.
1. HAC's still have their benefits, more agile, high base resistances, smaller sig, so they are stil sueful.
2. Tech 2 ships are really ony supposed to be as good as Tech 1 ship above it, and now that BC's are an actual class, not a novelty, HAC's shouldb on par with tier 2 BC's. like if CCP ever makes Destroyers a useful class, it should be on par with AF's
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Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.11.09 10:03:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Queen Hades on 09/11/2006 10:03:33
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 09/11/2006 09:53:22
But most pirates are solo killers.. The HP boost wont magicaly summon more pirates to blob up with though it may force more solo pirates to seek out hunting mates.. And the 50% works for the pirate too.. Also remember the Devs havent released all the changes yet.. There may be a suprise or two coming.. They just love reading these threads though to milk the populace of ideas.. So keep on replying with whatever views you think best.. Changes are coming and I think the best course of action is to start thinking of new setups and tactics and then if none occur to you then post the gloom and doom.. 
Ok, you're right.
So here are my thoughts:
+50% hp is not the worst idea, if:
1. nos and neuts are nerfed - heavily nerfed to the point of being a tool only, not a primary weapon
2. Cap size and recharge time is adjusted accordingly
3. Energy usage of hybrids and lasers is lowered so you don't run dry
I REALLY hate the idea of upcoming "energy warfare". This would make pvp dull.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.09 10:19:00 -
[25]
Awesome.. EVERYONE should reply like this..
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" |
Cpt Abestos
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.09 10:24:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Rafein
Originally by: Ferocious FeAr
Kali should be renamed to "Battlecruisers Only"
Oh and say goodbye to hacs, they are completely pointless to fly.
Brilliant stuff.
Two points on that complaint.
1. HAC's still have their benefits, more agile, high base resistances, smaller sig, so they are stil sueful.
2. Tech 2 ships are really ony supposed to be as good as Tech 1 ship above it, and now that BC's are an actual class, not a novelty, HAC's shouldb on par with tier 2 BC's. like if CCP ever makes Destroyers a useful class, it should be on par with AF's
1) Hacs and other t2 ships only got a 25% hp increase vs over 50% to bcs
2) Most hacs cannot fit oversized plate/extenders and still have a workable setup
3) Hacs like the deimos barely have any agility/speed advantage over bcs like the hurricane.
4) The hurricane, drake and harbringer are able to match or beat the dmg output of tech II field bcs.
Case in point right now my Absolution has less armour than the harbringer, my ishtar has 1/4 the hp of the myrimidon(sp), t2 cannot simply rely on better reists alone as many omni tanks give execlent resists.
This patch is a slap in the face to not only gunboat pilots most noteably amarr and gallente, but to those who have trained to use t2 only to have it nerfed badly.
As for "making fights longer" the problem isn't fights arent lasting long enough because theyre isn't enough hps, but because it really doesnt matter if it takes 10seconds on 50seconds when youre nossed, jammed and outgunned. What the increase in hps has done has turned fair fights in to whoever has the most nos, ecn and cap charges wins which is something this game did not need more of.
It's great being Amarr ain't it?
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chao226
Black Lance
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:12:00 -
[27]
hp increases will force new PvP setups as cap will run out on current ones. best setups i have found is lots of armor plates on a BS and 1 mwed armor repper the arromor repper only to reppar dmg after battle u get a lot of hitpoints and can still fit a decent amount of guns seams more realistic i never lied armor reps or sheild bosters in combat imo repairing ones armor should be a slow constat process not bosting massive amounts every 12 secs hopefuly these chances will make game feel a but more reilistic
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:17:00 -
[28]
People wanted longer FLEET fights, so CCP nerfed skirmish warfare.
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Sign the petition against jump queues! |
KaiH
Duragon Pioneer Group
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:37:00 -
[29]
How about limiting the amount of NOS you can fit on a ship, just like with turrets or launchers?
Just an idea.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:57:00 -
[30]
There is no reasoning behind Tux decision. Just imagination how cool to have loooooong battles!
Dear Tux! To have long battle CP must eliminate focus. Not increase HP and wait for Amarr/Gall whining about cap, happiness of agent runner/ratters which will get better tank, hate of stealth bomber owners. You did not estimate carefuly all conseqeunces of your decison. And you are fried now.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:07:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 09/11/2006 12:07:11
Originally by: Zixxa
There is no reasoning behind Tux decision. Just imagination how cool to have loooooong battles!
Dear Tux! To have long battle CP must eliminate focus. Not increase HP and wait for Amarr/Gall whining about cap, happiness of agent runner/ratters which will get better tank, hate of stealth bomber owners. You did not estimate carefuly all conseqeunces of your decison. And you are fried now.
And you don't have all the info.. Kali may be feature locked but it is most certainly not balance locked.. So quit whining about things you havent even had the chance to do yet to be able to make an informed complaint unless you are one of the few lucky ones to get on SISI and actually have a stable enough run to get in some real testing..
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:23:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Patch86 on 09/11/2006 12:37:24
Originally by: Dalekplunger Slick
Edited by: Dalekplunger Slick on 08/11/2006 02:52:03
If you increase HP 50% doesn't that mean the ship will last 50% longer in a fleet battle? When your life span in a fleet battle is 15 seconds if you're called primary, does making it 23 seconds really mean that much?
Maybe an extra 7 seconds isn't very much if you'ere being shot at. But it does if you're not primary. Think about it, you're in a fleet battle with 20 people in both gangs. Each ship previously only lasted 15 seconds, and now last 23 seeconds. Previously, the entire battle would have been over in 300 seconds / 5 minutes. Now the battle will last 450 seconds / 7 and a half minutes total. I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty good to me.
True whe n you're being shot at those extra 7 seconds don't mean anyhing to you, but if you're down the queue of primaries a bit, you'll have a lot more breathing room. Number 10 in the target list would be fighting a whole 70 seconds longer! Sounds good to me......
EDIT: Typo.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Dalekplunger Slick
Edited by: Dalekplunger Slick on 08/11/2006 02:52:03
If you increase HP 50% doesn't that mean the ship will last 50% longer in a fleet battle? When your life span in a fleet battle is 15 seconds if you're called primary, does making it 23 seconds really mean that much?
Maybe an extra 7 seconds isn't very much if you'ere being shot at. But it does if you're not primary. Think about it, you're in a fleet battle with 20 people in both gangs. Each ship previously only lasted 15 seconds, and now last 23 seeconds. Previously, the entire battle would have been over in 300 seconds / 5 minutes. Now the battle will last 350 seconds / 7 and a half minutes total. I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty good to me.
True whe n you're being shot at those extra 7 seconds don't mean anyhing to you, but if you're down the queue of primaries a bit, you'll have a lot more breathing room. Number 10 in the target list would be fighting a whole 70 seconds longer! Sounds good to me......
\o/ Thinking goooood! And the first to look past the short term has arrived..
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" |
Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:31:00 -
[34]
You are wrong. They will get just more BSs, because base of experienced gamers are increasing constantly. Primary will live until locked. Neither 15, nor 23 secs, but 8-10 secs.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:36:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 09/11/2006 12:38:16
And what magical process will let a corp materialize extra BS pilots and ships out of thin air? The base of players might be increasing but i'm fairly sure it not near enough to give all the pvp corps in the game that many extra pilots each..
And more time even if its only 70 seconds expands your responce time as a fleet as a whole.. This is needed..
[2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:57:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 09/11/2006 12:38:16
And what magical process will let a corp materialize extra BS pilots and ships out of thin air? The base of players might be increasing but i'm fairly sure it not near enough to give all the pvp corps in the game that many extra pilots each..
And more time even if its only 70 seconds expands your responce time as a fleet as a whole.. This is needed..
Just as an example, LV can field a fleet of about 80-90 *battleships* (with another 80-90 people flying in support ships) quite easily. IMO this is about the maxium practical limit to fleets at the moment, simply due to the fact that anything more crashes the node you're on.
Once Kali comes out, everyone will be in Rokhs and Maelstroms because of this: sensor boosters. More sensor boosters = faster lock time = more rounds on target faster than the other guys. More mids = more sensor boosters. DPS per ship will increase slightly due to the one extra gun. Tracking, fall off, rate of fire, cap requirements, reloading time and all that other good stuff that matters in short ranged solo/small gang PVP don't matter one bit.
Optimal matters simply because you need as much damage at as long a range as possible. The Rokh delivers this in spades, and to a lesser degree the Maelstrom, speaking about strictly T1 setups. With T2 setups the Rokh still comes out ahead, but the gap is narrower.
People want numbers: I had a 9 man gang going on test full of T1/T2 snipers (5 t1, 4 t2) with a mix of Maelstroms/Rokhs/Apoc/Tempest/Mega and we basically got off 1 volley each for ships BC sized or less, and needed two volleys for the battleships, and three volleys if it was really tanked (Abaddon).
Now, what does this tell me? It tells me that If I have 9 people firing 3 volleys to kill a heavily tanked BS then that's going to take at *least* 15 seconds or so to kill it when I engage the same target with a fleet of 90 battleships right? (3 volleys, 5 sec ROF etc.) Wrong.... It's just that there's going to be 27 people on the killmail as the first 27 people to lock the primary target in 4 seconds or less are going to vaporize the target in 1 volley, and it's on to the next one, locking as fast as you can.
So now we're back to my original point: sensor boosters. Who has the fastest lock times are the ones who get on the killmails. Everyone else will just end up putting rounds through empty space as the target dies before they can complete the lock.
Is any of this making any sense?
Because I said so...
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Genericforumalt
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:59:00 -
[37]
does the HP change affect NPCs? Or not? I haven't heard a definate anwser.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.09 13:00:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 09/11/2006 12:38:16
And what magical process will let a corp materialize extra BS pilots and ships out of thin air? The base of players might be increasing but i'm fairly sure it not near enough to give all the pvp corps in the game that many extra pilots each..
Not so many. Usually good fleet is overkill for any BS. After 50% HP it will require minor increase in firepower.
But even if battle will be really more long, what does it change? Nothing. Instead one salvo, BS will be killed with second salvo. WCS are nerfed, so no way to escape from the tacklers even in prolonged battle.
Quote:
And more time even if its only 70 seconds expands your responce time as a fleet as a whole.. This is needed..
I do not understand. What about 70 seconds?
You will have more time to run away. Sure. But smart commander must run away after one minute of the battle(when 5-6 BS are down) - situation is clear, only exit is to save core forces. Do not see what help do we get from longer battle?
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.09 13:15:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zixxa
You are wrong. They will get just more BSs, because base of experienced gamers are increasing constantly. Primary will live until locked. Neither 15, nor 23 secs, but 8-10 secs.
Yes, but imagine this situation.
50 man gang.
Commander calls primary, secondary, tertiary.
Locks start. 10 Seconds later, locks finish.
t0:
t10: 50 people try to activate and kill the primary, 25 people activate, secondary advanced to primary, tertiary to secondary[new teriary called, locking starts]
t12: 25 people activate and kill the primary, secondary advanced to primary, tertiary to secondary[new teriary called, locking starts]
t15: 25 people activate and kill the Primary, secondary advanced to primary, tertiary to secondary[new teriary called, locking starts]
t20: Locking Finishes on new primary, 25 people activate killing primary, secondary advanced to primary, tertiary to secondary[new teriary called, locking starts]
t22: Locking finishes on new Primary, 25 people activate killing primary, secondary advanced to primary, tertiary to secondary[new teriary called, locking starts]
t25: Locking finishes on new Primary, 25 people activate killing primary, secondary advanced to primary, tertiary to secondary[new teriary called, locking starts]
You kill 3 people every 10 seconds.
Now what happens with a 50% HP boost, it now takes 38 activations to kill someone
t0: primary/secondary/tertiary called, locking starts
t10: 50 people try to activate, 38 people activate and kill primary, secondary advanced to primary, tertiary to secondary[new teriary called, locking starts]
t12: 12 Activate on new Primary
t15: 38 try to activate on new primary, 26 activate on new primary killing it, secondary advanced to primary, tertiary to secondary[new teriary called, locking starts]
t17: 24 Activate on new primary
t20: 26 try to activate on new primary, 12 activate killing primaryt22: Locking finishes on new Primary, 25 people activate killing primary, secondary advanced to primary, tertiary to secondary[new teriary called, locking starts], locking ends on new primary.
t22: 38 Activate on new Primary, killing it
t24: Locking finishes on new Primary, 25 people activate killing primary, secondary advanced to primary, tertiary to secondary[new teriary called, locking starts]
t25: locking ends on new primary, 12 activate on new primary
t27: 28 try to activate on new primary,
anyway, this is getting too confusing for the time and I already know what happens.
You lose two seconds each activation rung so your kill time becomes lock time+2-4 seconds and not lock time.
Then again, the gang structure ought to allow us to call primary/secondary/tertiary targets more efficiently, which will slightly negate this [less locking to do per kill]
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.09 13:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Genericforumalt
does the HP change affect NPCs? Or not? I haven't heard a definate anwser.
No, afaik, it does not.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.09 13:34:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Goumindong
Then again, the gang structure ought to allow us to call primary/secondary/tertiary targets more efficiently, which will slightly negate this [less locking to do per kill]
Yea, fleet commander will adopt to new HP and with new gang structure will convert 50% HP boost in small nuisance.
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Orion Shurtak
Amarr
Free Player Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.09 13:58:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 09/11/2006 09:53:22
But most pirates are solo killers..
Since when are most pirates solo killers? I have been playing the game 3 years now and only once have I found a pirate who would do it solo. In my experience unless your a noob or in a hauler, they wont bother you unless they out number you. The only peeps I see whining are the wannabees that sit in empire. So it takes a bit longer to kill someone. Just do what the long time players have had to do every time there is a change; adapt and overcome. If you don't like it, find another game.
PS I agree with you Dred. Just making a point.
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Free Player Corporation |
Elaron
Minmatar
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.09 15:59:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Queen Hades
I REALLY hate the idea of upcoming "energy warfare". This would make pvp dull.
Small unit and skirmish combat in EVE is already dominated by cap warfare. However, most people don't fully realise this because such combat is generally too short.
Part of the problem is with the nature of skirmish combat. The general tactic is to reduce the opposing pilots tactical options as much as possible as quickly as possible. Thus - warp scramble to stop them from running; webbing to stop them from maneuvering; ECM to disable their ability to fight back; NOS to stop their ability to do anything else. Once that has been accomplished to the best of the aggressors ability, the weapons are free to reduce the targets hit points. If done optimally, it is not a fight, it is an execution. No chance for a reversal. No possibility of reprieve.
Elaron
It is never too late to correct the mistakes of the past. |
petergriffen
Amarr
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.09 16:15:00 -
[44]
One thing CCP spoke about before was about one thing they would like to see in combat - being able to target individual modules on the ship, including the ships engines, warp drive, capacitor... In order to do this, the length of combat needs to increase greatly to even make it feasible. I for one think it will be great for solo and small-gang setups, which is where the longer combat time will really come into play. For fleet battles, I don't think the extra 50% HP will make a very big difference.
Gradually crippling the ship rather than spreading damage over the entire ship sounds just a bit more realistic to me :)
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Soratah
Amarr
Yazata Spenta
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.09 16:23:00 -
[45]
Rather than a boost to HP with little or no justification, CCP should of strengthened or developed new modules to resist damage.
I for one would like a module that could intercept incoming damage and/or reduce it before hitting my ship.
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Darineah Charach
Minmatar
The Splinter Syndicate
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.09 16:27:00 -
[46]
Originally by: KaiH
How about limiting the amount of NOS you can fit on a ship, just like with turrets or launchers?
Just an idea.
This is a really, really good idea. Just as with ECM becoming a mod that can be used by anyone, but most effective on specialised ships, so should Nos be. Limited on all ships other than those specialised for its use.
This would alleviate the energy warfare problems of the HP boost.
I like it.
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Boxing Kangaroo
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Elaron
Minmatar
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.09 16:48:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Soratah
Rather than a boost to HP with little or no justification, CCP should of strengthened or developed new modules to resist damage.
The problem there is that it raises the spectre of too easily achievable unbeatable tanks.
A better solution would be to reduce ROF on all weapons, decrease the cycle rate on all repair modules, and extend the shield recharge rate by a comparable amount. This will slow down the speed of battle without upsetting the (im)balance between offense and defense.
Elaron
It is never too late to correct the mistakes of the past. |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.09 16:51:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Darineah Charach
Originally by: KaiH
How about limiting the amount of NOS you can fit on a ship, just like with turrets or launchers?
Just an idea.
This is a really, really good idea. Just as with ECM becoming a mod that can be used by anyone, but most effective on specialised ships, so should Nos be. Limited on all ships other than those specialised for its use.
This would alleviate the energy warfare problems of the HP boost.
I like it.
Only problem then: everyone will be flying around in MWD curses nossing each other from 40km with 5 med dim nosses.
Because I said so...
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