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GBBUTT
Dismemberment
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:27:00 -
[61]
I like it when n00bs and alts start defending T2 makers. The n00bs dont know any better and the alts are just the makers trying to bolster their side.
DEATH TO T2!!!!
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Dahak2150
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:56:00 -
[62]
Originally by: zeKzn
I'm 4 months old, and no matter what, with the exception of having a t2 bpo, maintaining higher prices could not in any way be in my interest.
Cartels are inherently unstable, and never last long, with a few exceptions. I have seen little evidence that there are cartels operating in eve though.
I also find it very hard to believe that there are only 8 BPOs in existence for any given t2 item today.
You obviously know nothing of the current situation, so stop pretending you do.
There are only 8 BPOs, ask a dev. Go ahead. Do it.
Cartels do exist. Take a look at Cap Recharger IIs. Hulks. See some insanely inflated prices? You really think the demands are that high?
You said it yourself, you're 4 months into the game. Come back when you understand more. ---------- My sig is boring. |
Brooke Prime
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:04:00 -
[63]
Everyone is always complaining about tech II prices and how they are fixed by the BPO owners, they are NOT, the price problem for tech 2 is as much due to resellers as BPOS owners.
Example:
I make tech two item. I sell for 100% profit. Reseller buys and seels for 500% of my original cost. I make 100% they make 400%. Next batch is going to be put on market for 500% profit of course.
People expect a hac to cost what 200 mil say (i know this may be wrong price but will use for example). Any HAC on the Market for 150 mil is imediattley going to be bought and put striaght back on market for 200mil.
I know someone who has become rich off the back of a Tech 2 BPO. They makes a nice profit of the build value. and you know what, almost all their production gets bought out and sold at 4x their sell price. the resellers makes almost 4x more profit than the producer.
The problem I beleive is now perceived value. People have an idea what an item is worth, so whenever they see that item at a lower price, they buy it and sell it on at the perceived value. Until all the items available on market are at a lower price and the perceived value drops, which is incredibly unlikely for a rare item anyway, then between BPO holders and resellers prices will remaian as they are.
Think of it this way, if someone asked you how much a HAC was worth most people would say 200 million (or whatever the real value is). And if you were given one free to sell, most would sell it for that 200 million even tho it cost you nothing. Basically, more HAC BPO will mean more people making and selling for 200 mil. The price will only drop if supply outstrips demand. While ever you can sell all the HACS you make for 200 mil you will continue to do so.
I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.
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Phoenix Pryde
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:06:00 -
[64]
look another T2 thread ...
If one wants to live in a perfect world were grinding gets you everything and everything is available in abundance then you re probably wrong in Eve ... I for one am happy that not everybody can have everything. It would rather boring that way ...
TRUST Shop // Infinite Improbability Inc [3-I] |
Victor Valka
Caldari Archon Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:17:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Eilie What do you think will happen if they just seed T2 BPOs on the market?
What do I think? Mmm. Okay, I'll try to explain my logic.
All the numbers are pulled out of arse. Just so you know.
Suppose they seed T2 BPOs on the market. Suppose that Cerberus BPO (WTF? at ship's current price on the market, BTW) will cost 10 billion (as if ever!). Lets suppose that the build cost is 50 million.
Now lets say I buy that BPO and start building them. I'm a decent person, I sell them with a 100% markup. That's 100 million for a Cerberus and 50 million profit per one for me. Affordable, yes? So far so good.
Now, being a smart guy I am, I do some math to see how long will it take me to earn back the initial investment (10 billion) and start making some actual profit.
10 billion/50 million=200
Well. Selling 200 shouldn't be a problem. Everyone wants one, right?
Now this is where everything goes bad.
It takes over a day to build one. So, realistically, I could earn back the initial investment and start making profit in a year.
WTF mate!? Screw that! I'm selling them 250 million a pop! That way I only need to sell 50 of them and I'll make the investment back in under half a year.
And then there is the limited amount of rare moon minerals needed to build T2 so not everyone who gets a BPO could build from it because he/she doesn't have access to needed materials.
See where I'm going with this?
The more you think about it the more of a cluster**** it becomes.
I could be missing something. If I am, please flame me.
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Pestillence
Chav-Scum
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:30:00 -
[66]
People see low supply as part of some CCP masterplan to keep t2 rare.
Simple fact is the playerbase grew dramatically in a short period of time. CCP reacted too slowly (or not at all) and did not seed BPO's to match changing player demographics (age / skill / size)
Make all the pedantic quotes you like disputing terminology like monopoly or an olgliopoly, it doesnt really matter. At the end of the day it's broken and it only takes the application of a small amount of common sense to see this.
Will invention fix this? I hope so.
P.S. I make billions a month for almost no effort from a bpo, I can see past my bias though
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:56:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Eilie What do you think will happen if they just seed T2 BPOs on the market?
What do I think? Mmm. Okay, I'll try to explain my logic.
All the numbers are pulled out of arse. Just so you know.
Suppose they seed T2 BPOs on the market. Suppose that Cerberus BPO (WTF? at ship's current price on the market, BTW) will cost 10 billion (as if ever!). Lets suppose that the build cost is 50 million.
10 billion for a HAC BPO is exactly what I was thinking too.
Originally by: Victor Valka Now lets say I buy that BPO and start building them. I'm a decent person, I sell them with a 100% markup. That's 100 million for a Cerberus and 50 million profit per one for me. Affordable, yes? So far so good.
Now, being a smart guy I am, I do some math to see how long will it take me to earn back the initial investment (10 billion) and start making some actual profit.
10 billion/50 million=200
Well. Selling 200 shouldn't be a problem. Everyone wants one, right?
Now this is where everything goes bad.
It takes over a day to build one. So, realistically, I could earn back the initial investment and start making profit in a year.
WTF mate!? Screw that! I'm selling them 250 million a pop! That way I only need to sell 50 of them and I'll make the investment back in under half a year.
Sure the prices won't go down immediately but as more people buy the BPO, the less control each individual will have over the price.
Originally by: Victor Valka And then there is the limited amount of rare moon minerals needed to build T2 so not everyone who gets a BPO could build from it because he/she doesn't have access to needed materials.
0.0 space is huge and most of it is currently empty and there are all those new regions coming in. Even if this did become a problem, the people doing the moon mining will than make more profit instead of the T2 producers... and since they are the ones with all the risk of operating and defending a POS, they deserve it.
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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Genericforumalt
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:08:00 -
[68]
I'm sure CCP will seed more T2 BPOs eventually for ships. They will probably attack T2 prices with a two pronged strike blitzkrieg with invention and seeding more BPOs. The maginot line of T2 prices will crumble, but not too much, lest T1 be completly worthless.
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:08:00 -
[69]
This field of discontent seems a perfect place for me to plant a seed of hope.
My idea
Science is broken. My idea can maybe help fix that - Thanks for looking at it. All feedback welcome.
Cheers.
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Gonada
Gallente Cross Roads
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:42:00 -
[70]
the only people that defend the T2 situation are those that have total controlw of it, or are todies to those that do.
the t2 market is pure BS atm, luck of the draw won limitless isk.
and the poster that wrote: Actually, the market is an oligopoly, and no player has anything like a monopoly.
idiot.
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.- -nerf Missles-
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Hazurr
Amarr Angelic Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:53:00 -
[71]
the reason why T2 is expensive?: because that's humanity's nature.
the reason why most ppl here disagree with you? : because that will defend thier money faucets.
that would be all __________________________________________________________________
Pessimism is the foundation of survival
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Mallick
Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:06:00 -
[72]
The first t2 bpo's seeded was like 8 each. Now I do not know how many there is today, but 8 of each item and ship is ridicilous. The 'new' t2 bpo's got about 20 seeded for each, at least concerning the new ships (recons, command ships, interdictors).
It is not enough to supply the whole community which exceeds 100k subscribers.
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Trooper B99
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:10:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Trooper B99 on 08/11/2006 14:12:35
Originally by: Dahak2150
There are only 8 BPOs, ask a dev. Go ahead. Do it.
Cartels do exist. Take a look at Cap Recharger IIs. Hulks. See some insanely inflated prices? You really think the demands are that high?
Actually there are 20-24 BPO's for all tech II modules and ships (i belive there might only be 8 for afew of the initiual BPO's released by I've never had that confirmed and can post the thread that Oveur stated there were 20 of each mod/ship when i get home). There are 40 for each ammo BPO.
There are very few cartels (as the infamous DS will tell you), I believe that cap II's and Covert cloaks are a couple of examples but those are special cases - cap II as it was one of the inital mods that was useless to begin with and covert ops as they require a chain of tech II BPO's to make so there is alot of manufacturer interaction in their production. As for the rest, the big ticket sellers are selling so high because of market forces. Hell, I should know, our Tech II ship and mod portfolio is quite nice. What people forget is there are alot of tech II mods and some ships that don't sell at insane markups. Its all down to market forces for a limited production of items.
End of the day, I would rather BPO's end up in the possesion of people who *can* produce them 23/7 (the manufacturers who have alot of cash and can afford to buy more tech II bpos to their portfolio) so that there are enough mods on the market compared to someone doing them on/off with maybe only 50-70% production or making BPC's.
Oh and of/c CCP does keep an eye on prints to see that they don't go inactive/get destroyed. IF thats the case, more get seeded to keep numbers up.
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:11:00 -
[74]
i find that totally unfair as long as i dont have one!! ------
relaxed corp looking for members |
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:12:00 -
[75]
1. Not all t2 bpos make any money. i would say only about 20% do.
2. T2 production is not easy, it takes alot of work.
3. People who did get t2 bpos in lotto did work for them. they trained the skills and did the research.
4. Alot of the current bpos owners bought their bpos and didnt receive them in the lotto.
5. There will be more t2 bpos dropped. So quit complaining and get in on research.
6. The prices of t2 items are mostly based on player demand. If you dont like the price dont buy it. That in itself if others are as upset as most of you will drop the prices. Hacs used to sell for like 65million.
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Bianca Thorne
Caldari Ranger Industrials
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:18:00 -
[76]
Quote: null
Quote: Have you even tried Invention yet on the test server? From what I've seen, you will only get 1 attempt (with max skills and 5 lvl4 agents) to make a BPC every 2 weeks... and according to the devs, the chance of success will be very low! So unless they change something, I will stand by my opinion that Invention is useless.
Invention could be a big change for the Tech-II-market - especially for the overpriced items. Look at HAC-BPO. You could only build a very limited number of ships a month - how much? Maybe around 1.400 HACs out of all the 64 BPOs in existence (provided that this "only 8 BPOs per HAC"-number is true (there are 8 HAC¦s if I¦m wright or?))? Now comes invention. There are around 120.000 subscribers. Let us be pessimistic and assume that only 20.000 of them will work on it (I guess there will be much more!). Let us be even more pessimistic and assume that only 5000 of them will try to get a invention-HAC-BPC and the rest try to get the other nearly worthless tech-II stuff *sarcasm-warning *. More pessimism and use of estimates: may only 10% of them are triumphant with their invention and they get a BPC with -how much?-runs - let us assume only 2-run-BPC¦s (keep in mind that more is possible: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=384). 500 additional 2-run-HAC-BPCs - and you truly think this will have no impact on the prices?
Sorry for my bad english - best regards and cu in eve space
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Trooper B99
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:29:00 -
[77]
Oh and I should add, another reason for the high priceing of the top notch items is that ALOT of 0.0 alliance corps own these BPO's and use them mainly or totally for inhouse usage. FOr example, BoB uses their CONSIDERABLE (and i REALLY mean considerable) Tech II ship and mod portfolio in house taking those out of general sale.
Tech II Manufacturing is PvP as well remember and dominating a market by preventing your enemies from getting access to ships and mods while funneling them to your own members is a very shrewd move.
Oh and as stated before, large scale 23/7 tech II production and sale is a difficult thing at the best of times.
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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Slevin Kalebra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:34:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Illistar DeathWing Is it fair that a guy named Bob Languer who lives in my town won 25 million$? Is it fair that he can now buy whatever he likes while the rest of us have to earn a living? Same thing, they got lucky in a loto and won, get over it.
Yeah - there's a guy living in my town who won the UK lottery. He's an ex-convict (for some very unpleasant crimes) with an IQ that may be compared unfavorably to a brick. He's several million quid better off than me despite the fact I've got a PhD and worked my ass off all my life. Some people are just lucky, the rest of us have to work for a living. Deal with it. It's not like there aren't plenty of other ways to make your fortune in Eve.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:39:00 -
[79]
What the whiners don't understand is that those not having gotten anything yet have plenty of tickets for the tech II titan once that rolls around.
I'm sure tech II prints will hit the market at one time, around when tech IV is state of the art I'd guess.
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Buttford
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Posted - 2006.11.08 15:36:00 -
[80]
Can we get away from the idea that the T2 BPO hand-out was a lottery - it wasnt. In every lottery I have ever seen you get the chance to win a certain amount - $25 million for example - and when you have p*ssed that away you are back to where you started. Now loot drops are more like a lottery 99.999% of the time you get nothing but now and again you;ll land a nice BPC and make a ton of cash. T2 BPO's on the other hand are more like an invite to a group of buddies who have the rights to make the only cars in the world - everyone who wants a car has to buy from you (sure, they could use a train or go by bus but lets face it - everyone wants a car). Now everyone else gets to work really hard to earn their money but they will never be able to build a car, instead they just pay through the nose for the 8 models the BPO buddies decide to make.
Oh, and dont tell me that it takes a lot of work to make T2 items - try ratting or mining for the same amount of cash like the rest of us and then you'll see what work is!
If i had a choice I wouldnt buy T2 kit but I also wanna compete and PVP so I buy what I can and begrudgingly hand over my hard earnt Isk for it.
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Reckless Eddie
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Posted - 2006.11.08 16:01:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Buttford Can we get away from the idea that the T2 BPO hand-out was a lottery - it wasnt. In every lottery I have ever seen you get the chance to win a certain amount - $25 million for example - and when you have p*ssed that away you are back to where you started. Now loot drops are more like a lottery 99.999% of the time you get nothing but now and again you;ll land a nice BPC and make a ton of cash. T2 BPO's on the other hand are more like an invite to a group of buddies who have the rights to make the only cars in the world - everyone who wants a car has to buy from you (sure, they could use a train or go by bus but lets face it - everyone wants a car). Now everyone else gets to work really hard to earn their money but they will never be able to build a car, instead they just pay through the nose for the 8 models the BPO buddies decide to make.
Oh, and dont tell me that it takes a lot of work to make T2 items - try ratting or mining for the same amount of cash like the rest of us and then you'll see what work is!
If i had a choice I wouldnt buy T2 kit but I also wanna compete and PVP so I buy what I can and begrudgingly hand over my hard earnt Isk for it.
Buhu?
watched you cry, watched you fly, watched you die |
Cez
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Posted - 2006.11.08 16:29:00 -
[82]
Didn't bother to read anymore than the ops post... and he's 100% correct. CCP has overlooked this too long. They neglected to release more due to the mass increase in memberships and the prices have skyrocketed. They even helped the t2 producers out when THEY whined about the lack of RAMs so what do they get, RAM bpos. Yet prices still went up? Why was that? Its not supply and demand when the supply is purposely limited to create demand.
CCP shame on you.... shame.
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Epidemis
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Posted - 2006.11.08 16:31:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Evelgrivion CCP introduced research and Tech II items about a year and a half ago. Given in extremely limited quantities for almost every type of item, Tech II ships boast some very nice statistical advantages over their tech I counterparts.,,,
Nice writeup, respect.
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Hoshino
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:43:00 -
[84]
Just love it when people say that the price for t2 items is so high cause the demand is so high, HELLO HAVE YOU B READING THIS BLODDY POST thats what we are saying just imagine if there were only 8-20 bpo of all the t1 bpo in game how much do you think you would have to pay for a bs then just seed the market with t2 bpo like the t1 bpo and this problem is history.
And the calkulation i saw about the hac bpo well whats wronge here a alliance can mine 20 bill in a week if it so disires with np in 00 space, and another thing saying its hard work building t2 items LOL what crap you can buy everything you need in jita sell that vaga for 150mill and you are still making more then 100% profit. Base price for most hacs is 20-30 mill.
So if you got say a hac bpo you can stay in jita buy everything you need right there you dont even need to moon mine or run a pos cause hacs are built in stations only capital ships are built in poses, so basicly you got your own money printing machine thx to ccp for no effort and i swear i will go ape**** on next player that says that the lotto winners deserved there bpo cause they had trained and worked hard to get them.
Dont think anyone could have dreamed such a system as we have now in there widest dreams this is so unfair nothing anyone can say can make this right so dont even try all i know is that im going to use all what i can to make ccp notice wtf they are doing and players are geting realy ****ed.
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:01:00 -
[85]
OP that is a dam good question, and I have no idea why CCP has let this go for so long. It is a MAJOR MAJOR game inbalance, risk vs reward? pfft whatever game is so broke, no other MMO has ever let this kind of a money loophole exist for so long. I mean it is worse than the buggy spawns in complexes if you ask me yet ccp fixed the complexes the same week, yet the entire tech2 bpo debacle has been allowed to go on for many months. Any way you slice it it is like CCP it okay with players essentially have the ability to dupe ISK. Very broken and a very major imbalance of anything resenbling risk vs reward...
Funniest part is how many people cry and moan about missions runners.....
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Victor Valka
Caldari Archon Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:11:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Eilie 10 billion for a HAC BPO is exactly what I was thinking too.
I was thinking a bit more.
Originally by: Eilie Sure the prices won't go down immediately but as more people buy the BPO, the less control each individual will have over the price.
The more people buy BPOs the less viable it would becomes to get into production. Look at T1. You can also take a guess at who will buy the most T2 BPOs. People who own a lot now, would still own most of the market afterwards. Maybe the wealth could become distributed (more) evenly, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Originally by: Eilie 0.0 space is huge and most of it is currently empty and there are all those new regions coming in. Even if this did become a problem, the people doing the moon mining will than make more profit instead of the T2 producers... and since they are the ones with all the risk of operating and defending a POS, they deserve it.
Trooper covers that. T2 built from materials in 0.0 would most likely remain in hands of the alliances. New regions will get claimed faster then you can imagine. It won't matter if they are practically empty - most alliances do it just because.
You don't see (m)any alliance members complaining about HAC prices, do you?
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:17:00 -
[87]
Edited by: zeKzn on 08/11/2006 18:18:07 I love how everyone who cant actually make an argument against me or anyone else who doesn't see an innate problem with T2 prices just resorts to mudslinging - yet I'm quite sure they're the same people who whine for years when such campaigns win in politics.
If the fact we were new meant that we didn't have a clue what we were talking about, it would be easy for you to make an argument against us - the fact you cant proves that we do, and that you're wrong ;)
Hypocrites :>
my thoughts are my own and do not represent the thoughts of my corp |
Raffael Ramirez
Caldari Mentally Unstable Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:19:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Raffael Ramirez on 08/11/2006 18:18:51 As a proud tec II bpo owner i can say.
Its just because we pwn and you suck :)
honestly tec II prices are a "bit" high , but as long as you find ppl paying those prices you will find ppl selling them .
I say officer loot is overpriced too but who cares ? Right no one . Because they find ppl buying them so they sell them at high prices.
Btw i always wondered why the **** everyone starts crying about how unfair/overpowered things are when a major patch is on the door step.. do you guys really think that a dev is even reading your whining ?
I see the problem but after all if you think they are too expensive , don¦t use em .
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fatmanpaul
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:27:00 -
[89]
You all miss the point. CCP wants limited availablility of T2 items. It is not about "Fair", it is not about your feelings of injustice, nor is it about real life like economics.
CCP wants T2 to be special, not a mass market item. Thus they created a ruling elite class in EVE Tech2 BPO owners with few BPOs. I am sorry if you do not like it. Our feelings are not a consideration. It is all marketing.........it is all about CCPs vision not ours.
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Rha
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:46:00 -
[90]
I really dont think CCP can fix this problem as easily as everyone seems to think.
There are only realy two scenarios as far as im concerned.
1. Very limited BPOS, Tech 2 components etc Supply < Demand. Prices rise until they get too high for alot to pay but all supply is bought by rich players. Only the rich fly tech 2 for PVP.
2. Larger supply of BPOS, Tech 2 components etc
Supply > Demand. Prices fall until they are not much above Production cost and Production of nearly all tech 2 items is pointless as a money making exercise. Everyone flies tech 2 for everything.
Now Im sorry to say this game will get very boring very fast for a large portion of the playerbase if No. 2 is true and they can afford to fly fully kitted out tech 2 easily.
I remember a very boring period before tech 2 when i had the BS and all the mods I wanted and there was nothing left to earn ISK for. Unless you are a PVP nfanatic who is losing ships regullaly, Tech 2 is something to work towards, as it should be IMO. Once tech 2 is esliy affordable it removes a whole set of goals for everyone who isnt in eve solely for PVP.
Most people will remeber buying there first HAC as fond memory of EVE as they worked hard for it and trained hard for the skills and the day they finally get it will be a event for them. Will this still be true if prices fall to production cost + 10%. Highly doubtfull.
Eve is the experience you make it. You set your own goals and the try to acheive them.
Im sorry to say this but the people moaning about prices are more than likely PVPERS whos goals are orientated towards killing people and not towards owning certain ships etc.. Im not sure but i would guess that the majority of Eves players are orientated towards goals tied to owning certain things, making money and finally buying that Uber tech 2 ship for no other reason than its something to aim for. They will buy it and then rat in it, or mine with it or whatever. If the prices of tech 2 items dramitcally fall alot of peoples aims will be met much quicker and leave them with little to aim for until tech 3 is seeded.
I see why people hate other people having an easy ride with making isk using BPOS but in truth Id gueass it actually usually lessens the EVE experience not enhances it.
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