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slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 08:58:00 - [31] ive been on both sides of the fence. when our alliance fought 5 they knew our every move which was extremely iritating and demoralising. when we did the "backstabbing manouvre (tm)" and fought with 5 iwas able tosee how it worked. when we were in a fleet battle we could hear on our ts the opposite fleets ts. pretty impressive. we knew exactly what they were doing which gave us a huge advantage. right or wrong depends what side your on i guess.
Damir36 Gallente PPN United Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.09 09:30:00 - [32] I really have no Problem with spies as they belong to the game and sometimes it is even a good laugh what they pick up (ofc sometimes you are at the recieving end of the joke ), but what I miss is a proper way to deal with them. You just can`t declare war on any Corp/Ally that hosts him in his further career, and if he goes to Empire you can`t even shoot him. As opposit to RL there is no police Force in Eve to hunt a convicted criminal (and rightly so) but to just get away by Clonejump, Carrier... is just too easy. What I`m getting at is that the "job" Spy in EvE is just to easy, the Consequences for being found out nonexistent. Thats why most of the Spys I have seen (ok, granted maybe the intelligent ones are not caught ) are on the lower end of the intelligence scala. There is no challenge in this for experienced Players. But if there where serious repercussions (dunno which) as well as added incentive (like getting at the mail of your Commanders or somthing) then it woud be a proper carreer in Eve and would`nt attract only the sorry Idiots that now do the spying because the can`t do anything useful in the game. (my two Cents, does not reflect my Corp or my Alliance) Grn¯e Damir Beware: German Link!:) Deutschprachige Piloten gesucht
Orc A Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.09 10:49:00 - [33] Tbh, what i don't get is people's whining and btching about Spies. I mean, i can understand the frustration of being spies upon, but come on, If there is a spy in your corp/alliance/TS, it's only your own * fault. Intelligence warfare is a big part of War. Even Sun Tzu, in his ancient writings spoke of their importance in any campaign. Just as there are spies, there are Counter spies. If yu got a spy in your ranks, it's only because you weren't careful enough with who you give security clearance to. Your inabillity to maintain your Security is the problem here, not the existance of spies to begin with. Originally by:** End Yourself hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
Orc A Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.09 10:50:00 - [34] Originally by: Damir36 I really have no Problem with spies as they belong to the game and sometimes it is even a good laugh what they pick up (ofc sometimes you are at the recieving end of the joke ), but what I miss is a proper way to deal with them. You just can`t declare war on any Corp/Ally that hosts him in his further career, and if he goes to Empire you can`t even shoot him. As opposit to RL there is no police Force in Eve to hunt a convicted criminal (and rightly so) but to just get away by Clonejump, Carrier... is just too easy. What I`m getting at is that the "job" Spy in EvE is just to easy, the Consequences for being found out nonexistent. Thats why most of the Spys I have seen (ok, granted maybe the intelligent ones are not caught ) are on the lower end of the intelligence scala. There is no challenge in this for experienced Players. But if there where serious repercussions (dunno which) as well as added incentive (like getting at the mail of your Commanders or somthing) then it woud be a proper carreer in Eve and would`nt attract only the sorry Idiots that now do the spying because the can`t do anything useful in the game. (my two Cents, does not reflect my Corp or my Alliance) Well, you'd be amazed but there are also stupid spies, that attempt to sell intel to the enemy using their main o.0. Go fig, eh? Originally by: End Yourself hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
NeoTech Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.09 14:15:00 - [35] Originally by: Orc A Tbh, what i don't get is people's whining and btching about Spies. I mean, i can understand the frustration of being spies upon, but come on, If there is a spy in your corp/alliance/TS, it's only your own *** fault. Intelligence warfare is a big part of War. Even Sun Tzu, in his ancient writings spoke of their importance in any campaign. Just as there are spies, there are Counter spies. If yu got a spy in your ranks, it's only because you weren't careful enough with who you give security clearance to. Your inabillity to maintain your Security is the problem here, not the existance of spies to begin with. I'm sorry but ur reply doesn't really stay logical. Forum access, TS access... Its 2 things that all alliance members should have access to. How would u fight a war if no one had TS access?. Please tell me how u can secure it all. :)
Mr dummy	Posted - 2006.11.09 14:52:00 - [36] Edited by: Mr dummy on 09/11/2006 14:52:51 Originally by: JabJabVVV Would it not be better if CCP either banned it completely and took steps to punish those found guilty OR actually took steps to properly support it perhaps instigate methods of finding out hidden alts and other accounts, that sort of thing. Any thoughts? It's a sandbox game. We don't need game mechanics micromanaging our actions, or dictating the terms of everything that happens in the game. If you want that, go play WoW.
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.09 16:08:00 - [37] Originally by: Damir36 I really have no Problem with spies as they belong to the game and sometimes it is even a good laugh what they pick up (ofc sometimes you are at the recieving end of the joke ), but what I miss is a proper way to deal with them. You just can`t declare war on any Corp/Ally that hosts him in his further career, and if he goes to Empire you can`t even shoot him. As opposit to RL there is no police Force in Eve to hunt a convicted criminal (and rightly so) but to just get away by Clonejump, Carrier... is just too easy. What I`m getting at is that the "job" Spy in EvE is just to easy, the Consequences for being found out nonexistent. Thats why most of the Spys I have seen (ok, granted maybe the intelligent ones are not caught ) are on the lower end of the intelligence scala. There is no challenge in this for experienced Players. But if there where serious repercussions (dunno which) as well as added incentive (like getting at the mail of your Commanders or somthing) then it woud be a proper carreer in Eve and would`nt attract only the sorry Idiots that now do the spying because the can`t do anything useful in the game. (my two Cents, does not reflect my Corp or my Alliance) see this is what I am talking about, more actual interaction in game with spies, right now it is too easy to spy in game cause there is nothing to regulate it and no punishments for getting caught.... I think it might require an entire new race/class of character type of deal but would be alot more fun if it was more officially made a part of the game and yes please dont lump me in as saying anything I am notbut thanks for appologizing Originally by: Pinky Denmark Caldari have other options like using rails or train for other ships/weapons...
JabJabVVV Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 16:14:00 - [38] Quote: It's a sandbox game. We don't need game mechanics micromanaging our actions, or dictating the terms of everything that happens in the game. If you want that, go play WoW. Oh joy, my first personal attack by an anonymous alt on the forums. I feel like a true forum warrior at last However I feel you have rather missed the point of my post (as have the others who have suggested I am a whiny little carebear who would be better off playing WoW or some other 'lesser' game.) My gripe was not with spying but with CCP's implementation of spying. At the moment they allow it however they fail to take any steps to implement it properly within the game. I simply believe that there is potential for making the game more interesting and enjoyable if they actually took steps to support information warfare and from the replies it seems that there are a lot of people thinking the same thing. Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
Drusus Rensus Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2006.11.09 16:50:00 - [39] Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 09/11/2006 16:51:54 What it all comes down to is whether it's OK by Eve standards to lie and defraud out of game to further your in game goals. If the consensus answer is yes, then it's perfectly OK to lie your butt of if someone asks you a question that they expect you (not your character) to answer truthfully, or provide some kind of out of game proof (like a screen cap) that you're telling the truth. What sucks about that is that means it's not really possible to make any friends in this game, since it would be perfectly fine to buddy up to someone just so that you could infiltrate or steal from his corporation or alliance. You can't really treat people that you meet through Eve as actual people. You have to assume that they're "in character" all the time, and may well be trying to gain your confidence so that they can scam you for in-game gain. If that's the state of the Eve community, and the way some of the largest entities in Eve operate, I think it's pretty pathetic, not to put too fine a point on it. I've made some good friends over the years playing RPGs of various kinds. I don't think that would have been possible if they didn't understand where the game ends, and personal relationships and integrity begin.
Loedem Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.09 16:51:00 - [40] In my opinion, spying gets into a messy grey area when taken outside CCP's intention of allowing spying (in game). I won't get into the RL legal aspects of unauthorized use of resources ( ugh, that thread just got ridiculous and blown out of proportion..and I don't think many people understood when it actually becomes "unauthorized" ). But I do wonder where you draw the line when addressing this out of game. I'm not saying spying like this is bad, but I am giving this real serious thought personally. This is going to sound silly, and it is unrealistic, but "what if" things escalated to finding out where pilots lived..invading their privacy by spying on their routines, parking outside their houses for survellance in an unassuming pizza delivery van? Yea far fetched, less exaggerated would be...what if their email, phones, etc were being tapped into? Sure it's unrealistic, but it makes me wonder how far some of these hard core spies will go. To me, it appears that these are all outside resources for information that invade privacy and aren't physically tied to the game mechanics. This doesn't really upset me... as forums and TS aren't as big of a deal as something more personal...but I just don't buy the counter arguement that we shouldn't use these things if we don't want them spied on. It's like saying, don't eat if you want to avoid being poisoned by someone that pretends to be your friend. :P Parts of this will become a moot issue tho, as Kali will bring voice chat into the game...and as long as CCP allows spying within EvE, spies will be allowed into alliances and will be given access to resources that allow them to spy further. I think that's grounds I would stand on for this issue, if the spy was invited to the information...then he/she is privy to it..there's nothing wrong with that really. When it comes to deceitful, unauthorized access (eg. hacking, stealing passwords, etc) it become closer to an outright crime. There is no way CCP could take a legal standpoint on these issues that spring up out of game. I don't see how they could...

Mr dummy	Posted - 2006.11.09 17:35:00 - [41] Edited by: Mr dummy on 09/11/2006 17:42:38 Originally by: JabJabVVV Oh joy, my first personal attack by an anonymous alt on the forums. I feel like a true forum warrior at last Being as I'm posting this on an alt, I hope it lasts long enough for you to read it. My comment was not meant as a personal attack. I'm simply pointing out that the thing that seperates Eve from prit-near every other MMO out there is it's open nature (due to it being a sandbox game). There are already plenty of other games that have encumbering rulesets. Eve, by comparison, is open. Quote: However I feel you have rather missed the point of my post (as have the others who have suggested I am a whiny little carebear who would be better off playing WoW or some other 'lesser' game.) My gripe was not with spying but with CCP's implementation of spying. At the moment they allow it however they fail to take any steps to implement it properly within the game. I simply believe that there is potential for making the game more interesting and enjoyable if they actually took steps to support information warfare and from the replies it seems that there are a lot of people thinking the same thing. I didn't miss your point. I disagree with it. I don't want yet another ruleset added to the game. It ruins Eve's open nature. The best thing about CCP's implemention of spying it that there is no implementaion of spying. It's completely based on trust (or paranoia), and not encumbered by in-game mechanics. And yes, I consider "support" (in the form of in game mechanics) to be encumbering. As it stands, espionage is dictated in terms of one's imagination and creativity. And I'm not talking about RP nonsense. I mean imagination and creativity in the same sense as non-traditional ship setups, or battlefield tactics. If "spy support" is added, it's going to become a "this is what constitutes spying; everything else is different and strange" approach to espionage. I think it's self-evident why that is the antithesis of what makes a sandbox game engaging. Edit - Mods: instead of deleting this post, consider moving this thead to a forum more appropriate for it's subject matter. This is really more of a "General Discussion" topic.
Eiro ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.09 18:50:00 - [42] Edited by: Eiro on 09/11/2006 18:52:40 Originally by: Shardrael Edited by: Shardrael on 09/11/2006 05:49:33 ok let me clarify, I know its possible now using ingame mechanics to spy on people and I know its possible now using strategy and certains tactics to smoke out a spy, that was not what I was talking about, I was talking about someway in game designed to make a char ready for spying, as in something that could maybe hide corp history or grant access to certain aspects of a corp without permission, but then also put ways in game to counter this through the use of an ingame mechanism, in other words make it a part of the game you can actually play as opposed to roleplay. if that makes any sense..... please dont tell me how you spy now though as I understand that I am just wishing that if it were to be an accepted and practiced portion of the game that there would be more game rules specifically setup to manage it.... thats about as clear as I can say it People would simply avoid using those parts of the game (where possible) that could be spied upon by in-game methods, and move to out-of-game methods where it is more difficult to do so. A lot of people complain about "out-of-game" methods of spying (yes I know you, Shardrael, are not saying this), but nobody seems to mind using "out-of-game" methods to AVOID spies. You can't have it both ways and maintain any kind of moral high ground. Meta-gaming methods for filtering out spies, like asking for screenshots etc, is just as much cheating as TS spying is, as there is no in-game way of acquiring that information. None of the above means in any way that I condone alt-spying (including alt scouts and the like), I'm just saying that there's no real moral superiority on either end of the out-of-game spying discussion. Personally, I think it's a crappy way to play the game and poor sportsmanship and frankly I'd prefer CCP do away with alts entirely so that players have to deal with the consequences of their actions, but I know realistically that's not going to happen. On the other hand, if someone spies in-game with their main, without using an alt or any kind of anonymizing out-of-game method to pass on information, by all means go for it :) I think the consequences of being caught for your character's reputation are a suitable risk vs reward balance. Eiro EDIT: I agree, this topic doesn't belong in this forum.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.09 18:53:00 - [43] The best defense is a good offense.
Nira Li Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:31:00 - [44] Originally by: NeoTech Since However IMO theres no difference from macro-mining and TS Spying. Macro mining uses out of game mechanics to further their ingame progress, so do TS spying and forum spying. You know you use TS aswell as a out of game mechanics to further your ingame progress, same with forums. I belive that if you use out of game mechanics to make eve more easy then it's perfectly fine for anyone to interfare with them as long as you don't destroy it at anyway or breaky any RL rules. Yes eve is a game and spying is part of it. Out of game mechanics is part of the game and so is out of game spying. You Will Cry My Name
Loedem Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:48:00 - [45] Originally by: Nira Li Originally by: NeoTech Since However IMO theres no difference from macro-mining and TS Spying. Macro mining uses out of game mechanics to further their ingame progress, so do TS spying and forum spying. You know you use TS aswell as a out of game mechanics to further your ingame progress, same with forums. I belive that if you use out of game mechanics to make eve more easy then it's perfectly fine for anyone to interfare with them as long as you don't destroy it at anyway or breaky any RL rules. Yes eve is a game and spying is part of it. Out of game mechanics is part of the game and so is out of game spying. I don't think CCP developed TS and various forums like PHPNuke and VBB. I think the point you should be making is this: When you invite a spy as a member, then that member is given access to additional resources. They're not breaking in, but are rather invited to see whatever you show them. How's that sound?
SCORPY SCRAP	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:41:00 - [46] Spies are a sign of weakness.
Nira Li Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:44:00 - [47] Originally by: Loedem Originally by: Nira Li Originally by: NeoTech Since However IMO theres no difference from macro-mining and TS Spying. Macro mining uses out of game mechanics to further their ingame progress, so do TS spying and forum spying. You know you use TS aswell as a out of game mechanics to further your ingame progress, same with forums. I belive that if you use out of game mechanics to make eve more easy then it's perfectly fine for anyone to interfare with them as long as you don't destroy it at anyway or breaky any RL rules. Yes eve is a game and spying is part of it. Out of game mechanics is part of the game and so is out of game spying. I don't think CCP developed TS and various forums like PHPNuke and VBB. I think the point you should be making is this: When you invite a spy as a member, then that member is given access to additional resources. They're not breaking in, but are rather invited to see whatever you show them. How's that sound? Yea pretty much You Will Cry My Name
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:44:00 - [48] Originally by: SCORPY SCRAP Spies are a sign of weakness. Not as much as the emptiness of your argument :> my thoughts are my own and do not represent the thoughts of my corp
MarKand FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:17:00 - [49] First of all, everybody have their right to a opinion, but second, we will all have to face fact later. So here goes fact... EVE is not as you might want it to be, a demokratic, fluffy loving game, or gamestyle to play. It IS within its mechanics most PROFITABLE and POWERFUL when runned in dictator mode. So how does this go with spies ? Spies can only hurt you when you let them to, no one is forcing you to reliev information, or access to members in Your corp. The CEO, the leader does so by him/her self. By doing this , you are accepting the RISK it is to come under the influence of a spy. As a quick referal to RL, you can look at military or/and politics, all are on a need to know basis. Why ? becouse otherwise the intel will go the wrong way :) So the fact that we dont like spies, I dont either, but they are a part of this game, it is actually one of the roles CCP "flashes" that you can play in Eve. I think spies are vital to Eve. Imagine a Eve without spies, it would be like playing any other game, solo. This is why I play the game, it is so very realistic, it has so many different layers and colors to it. But,, as I stated in the beginning, opinions are our¦s to have, I also HATE spies, when they cross my alliance, but I love the one¦s we have. and that¦s actually sums the fact up. We like the things that improve our own game time, and we dislike what goes against us. Actually very natuaral. So , spies are to stay, spies ARE a part of the game, and a little finger pointing regarding TS and forums, the very reason you have TS and forums, is to add to your game, so it is natrualy to have spies there, even more likely to have forum spies than "active" players in corp. Ask your self, how many "sleepers" do You have in your corp, muhahahahaaaa ( soz couldnt help me there ) Keep the game rolling and safe flying to you all. This is Eve, this is what we chose to do , and we LOVE IT ! /M
Droewa Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.10 03:13:00 - [50] Originally by: Orc A Originally by: Damir36 I really have no Problem with spies as they belong to the game and sometimes it is even a good laugh what they pick up (ofc sometimes you are at the recieving end of the joke ), but what I miss is a proper way to deal with them. You just can`t declare war on any Corp/Ally that hosts him in his further career, and if he goes to Empire you can`t even shoot him. As opposit to RL there is no police Force in Eve to hunt a convicted criminal (and rightly so) but to just get away by Clonejump, Carrier... is just too easy. What I`m getting at is that the "job" Spy in EvE is just to easy, the Consequences for being found out nonexistent. Thats why most of the Spys I have seen (ok, granted maybe the intelligent ones are not caught ) are on the lower end of the intelligence scala. There is no challenge in this for experienced Players. But if there where serious repercussions (dunno which) as well as added incentive (like getting at the mail of your Commanders or somthing) then it woud be a proper carreer in Eve and would`nt attract only the sorry Idiots that now do the spying because the can`t do anything useful in the game. (my two Cents, does not reflect my Corp or my Alliance) Well, you'd be amazed but there are also stupid spies, that attempt to sell intel to the enemy using their main o.0. Go fig, eh? Don't forget about guys who smalk talk using thier alt then reply to a comment towrds it with thier main.. teee heeheeehee

Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.10 03:15:00 - [51] Spying is fine. When it crosses the boundaries into illegal activity (hacking forums, etc)... then it needs to stop. And yes, it has crossed these lines in the past, in some cases, IIRC. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Mynas Atoch Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.10 03:38:00 - [52] Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 10/11/2006 03:43:57 Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: NeoTech Spying with ingame mechanics (like reading alliance mail and such) are 100% fair in my eyes. However spying OUT of eve is a totally different thing. But no, it shouldn't be against the rule. I dont follow your logic at all. If spying on TS/forums is unfair because it involves using out of game methods then why is it fair for you to use TS/forums at all?I dont see the difference. Your arguement is - spying on ts/forums = out of game = wrong using ts/forums = out of game = ok? If you consider the use of TS/forums an acceptable part of game play then you must consider spy on them an acceptable part of game play as well. Nothing else really makes sense. Using a TS/forum isn't a criminal offence in my country. Gaining access to a TS or forum through misrepresentation is a criminal offence here, and punishable by a term of inprisonment and/or a pretty hefty fine. Lying and cheating out of game can have very different consequences to doing so in game. Claiming there is no dividing line is maybe not a wise course of action ... perhaps you should look harder for it. Originally by: "UK's Computer Misuse Act 1990" 1.ù(1) A person is guilty of an offence ifù (a) he causes a computer to perform any function with intent to secure access to any program or data held in any computer; (b) the access he intends to secure is unauthorised; and (c) he knows at the time when he causes the computer to perform the function that that is the case. (2) The intent a person has to have to commit an offence under this section need not be directed atù (a) any particular program or data; (b) a program or data of any particular kind; or (c) a program or data held in any particular computer. (3) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both.
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.10 04:11:00 - [53] Edited by: evistin on 10/11/2006 04:14:38 TS spy I think are, if any, the fault of the owners of the TS server. THey were not 1. Control who has the passwords 2. Give Officer chat a secondary password only 3. Filter who is actually getting on/off the server 4. You gives give out the password to the spy, because the spy is in your corp. The problem is that no matter how much you love/like/hate it. It will happen, just suck it up and get something to reduce the chances of spies in your corporation. Legally there was nothing but ones pride hurt. THe objects of the game are merely part of a game. If you want to claim the lose of 100 Battleships due to a spy, then expected RL taxes to come into play. ----------- Management and Leadership
pershphanie Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:35:00 - [54] Edited by: pershphanie on 10/11/2006 05:37:44 Originally by: Mynas Atoch Using a TS/forum isn't a criminal offence in my country. Neither is spying on it. Originally by: Mynas Atoch Gaining access to a TS or forum through misrepresentation is a criminal offence here, and punishable by a term of inprisonment and/or a pretty hefty fine. Thats not how spys gain access to forums/ts. Spys gain access to ts/forums by placing a character in the target corp/alliance. Then someone gives forum/ts access to that character. Since that really is your character you are not gaining access through misrepresentation. An Admin had to willingly gave your character access to those forums. Oh yeah - the law says nothing about misrepresentation. It says UNAUTHERIZED. Originally by: Mynas Atoch Lying and cheating out of game can have very different consequences to doing so in game. Claiming there is no dividing line is maybe not a wise course of action ... perhaps you should look harder for it. Well thx for your concern but I never said any of those things. There is a dividing line between lying ingame and cheating out of game. Spying does not cross that line. If someone hacked your forums/ts or stole someone's account with a key logger to gain access I would agree with you. However there is nothing wrong with gaining access to a forum/ts through the game. Originally by: "UK's Computer Misuse Act 1990" 1.ù(1) A person is guilty of an offence ifù (a) he causes a computer to perform any function with intent to secure access to any program or data held in any computer; (b) the access he intends to secure is unauthorised; and (c) he knows at the time when he causes the computer to perform the function that that is the case. I was not supporting hacking someone's TS/forums. This law is completly irrelevent to spying. Access given to spys IS autherized. The admin gives access to the character willingly. There is no unautherized breaking into TS/forums in spying. Spying is 100% legit in every way. To the rest of the people in this thread: You dont have to like spying. You can get mad and say how lame corps are that use spys. Keep on smacking. Just remember that the only people who can accept applications into your corp/alliance are your leaders. If you are in a corp/alliance that accepts 2 month old characters that only fly t1 frigs then you can stfu. Take some responsibilty for your own corp/alliance. Quit blaming everyone else for your problems. You are the one who chose to join a corp that accepts anyone who applys. It's your own ** fault. Quit crying. Originally by:** CYVOK If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
Orc A Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.10 08:30:00 - [55] Quote: Forum access, TS access... Its 2 things that all alliance members should have access to. How would u fight a war if no one had TS access?. The prevention phase comes much earlier. It's not that you filter who you give access to, it's filtering who you let in your corp to begin with. Also, spies are easy to filter out once already in the corp, if you know what to look for. A corp that employs such techniques also knows how to see them when applied on self. Originally by: End Yourself hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
Orc A Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.10 08:33:00 - [56] Edited by: Orc A on 10/11/2006 08:33:14 Quote: Just remember that the only people who can accept applications into your corp/alliance are your leaders. If you are in a corp/alliance that accepts 2 month old characters that only fly t1 frigs then you can stfu. Take some responsibilty for your own corp/alliance. Quit blaming everyone else for your problems. You are the one who chose to join a corp that accepts anyone who applys. It's your own ** fault. Quit crying. QF-MOFOKING-T. Persh, marry me? Originally by:** End Yourself hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.10 08:59:00 - [57] I see no difference between TS or forum spying and DDOS attack on TS server or wiping out the db of enemy internal forums.
Orc A Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.10 10:00:00 - [58] The diffrence is simple... DOS attack = ileagal almost anywhere in the world. TS/Forum espionage = cunning set-up by legit tools that anyone has. While to commence a DOS attack u need to have some knowledge that most don't, TS/Forum espionage is easy enough for anyone to engage in. Infact, IF DOS attacks had nothing illeagal to them, I wouldn't see it as an unlegitimate technique either. call it "Out of Game EW" if you like. Originally by: End Yourself hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
Elfman AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.10 10:19:00 - [59] Edited by: Elfman on 10/11/2006 10:20:53 Originally by: Orc A The diffrence is simple... DOS attack = ileagal almost anywhere in the world. TS/Forum espionage = cunning set-up by legit tools that anyone has. While to commence a DOS attack u need to have some knowledge that most don't, TS/Forum espionage is easy enough for anyone to engage in. Infact, IF DOS attacks had nothing illeagal to them, I wouldn't see it as an unlegitimate technique either. call it "Out of Game EW" if you like. Also not a flame - but dont you think that DOS attacks (if legal) would be pushing it a bit far - it is a game after all. a game to be played and enjoyed. If someone has to go to the lenghts such as above to gain a advantage over another player/group then there is something wrong. Edit - not accusing anyone of anything or saying spying etc is wrong or right just bored at work and enjoying a thread that so far hasnt been flamed to hell and back and so far been quiet enjoyable to read ;) Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat eis.
Orc A Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.10 10:27:00 - [60] Yes, the purpose of a game is enjoyment. However, not everyone can enjoy, as not everyone can win. Game + teams (alliances/corps) = Competition. In a competative game, There are winner, and there are losers. What one would do to achieve victory is up to him. What i said about DOS attacks and if they were legal is my personal opinion, which I'm sure not many share. As for the TS question, the one regarding giving out fake orders - Back in the FiX vs SA war, one of the guys on our side (not from our alliance though, one of the allies) managed to claim lead over the enemy gang wand warped them into a hostile to them POS. Brilliant manouver i think. In the bottom line, it all revolves around exploiting every single weakness of your enemy. TS infiltration is the exploiting of your enemies' weak security measures, etc. Simple as that - If you lose, it means you weren't good enough. It doesnt matter wether it was due to TS infiltration or whatever. All these things can be avoided by using the proper reprecausions. Originally by: End Yourself hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!



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