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Fubear Vogon Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.11.10 10:42:00 - [61] The best solution to the spy problem is to introduce some kind of ALT checker, let us see what other characters someone has on their account. This will force people to be held responsible for their actions. Spying, sabotage, scamming and the like will still be possible, but they will have to be performed on a main or an ALT that can be traced back to a main if people check.
Elfman AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.10 10:47:00 - [62] Originally by: Fubear The best solution to the spy problem is to introduce some kind of ALT checker, let us see what other characters someone has on their account. This will force people to be held responsible for their actions. Spying, sabotage, scamming and the like will still be possible, but they will have to be performed on a main or an ALT that can be traced back to a main if people check. Doesn't stop you using a second account does it :) Lots of us have two accounts at least Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat eis.
Asezel	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:06:00 - [63] Probably it worries when the spies will show competable records on the killboard ?
Fubear Vogon Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.11.10 14:52:00 - [64] Originally by: Elfman Originally by: Fubear The best solution to the spy problem is to introduce some kind of ALT checker, let us see what other characters someone has on their account. This will force people to be held responsible for their actions. Spying, sabotage, scamming and the like will still be possible, but they will have to be performed on a main or an ALT that can be traced back to a main if people check. Doesn't stop you using a second account does it :) Lots of us have two accounts at least It doesn't stop you using a second account, and that is the beauty of it. It makes spying harder, but not impossible. If you want to use a 'clean' account to spy then go ahead, but if you get caught then your character (the 'main' for that account) will be forever branded as a spy - the account owner then has to decide if it is worth keeping the account/character and their SP or recycle them. If you want to be an effective spy, then you need to have a clean account to do so. It makes spying much harder to
Orc A Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.10 14:56:00 - [65] Every "pro" spy that respects himself nowdays uses a "clean" char as it is. Atleast most of them. Originally by: End Yourself hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
Tinkz Miss Information's Agency	Posted - 2006.11.10 15:14:00 - [66] save the spies, in all their pies, dirty little fingers, and crafty eyes.
Mynas Atoch Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:56:00 - [67] Originally by: pershphanie Thats not how spys gain access to forums/ts. Spys gain access to ts/forums by placing a character in the target corp/alliance. Then someone gives forum/ts access to that character. Since that really is your character you are not gaining access through misrepresentation. An Admin had to willingly gave your character access to those forums. Originally by: Mynas Atoch Lying and cheating out of game can have very different consequences to doing so in game. Claiming there is no dividing line is maybe not a wise course of action ... perhaps you should look harder for it. Lets look harder then. Director of Company A wants to know what's going on in Company B. Person C joins Company B, passes details from B's internal private voice communicatoins and internal forums to A. B had to willingly give C access. The law says its all Company B's fault for lax recruitment practices? Nope. Stick a legal notice on your out of games comms .. warn that its confidential information .. that such information should not be passed to third parties outside the context of the forum or private voice communcations (Vent/TS). Even stick a contract up on a website to be endorsed before accepting membership of your corp. Where has the line gone? If you need to metagame to beat ASCN it tarnishes your pilots victory and reputation. Myn
Spaja Saist Gallente Knights of Retribution	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:01:00 - [68] Originally by: Metal Dude Edited by: Metal Dude on 08/11/2006 22:59:52 Did any of you read the Players Guide when you started playing this game? http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g12.asp See the part about spying? I guess it's just easier for you to complain on the forums about it instead of using it like it was meant to be. Politics, spies, wars is what makes this game great. Maybe you should first read the guide and if you don't like it, go play some other game where you can get cheat code right to the end and push the win button, but for the love of god, stop whining like a bunch of little girls because you are too lazy to read and understand the rules. Spoken like a true BOB spy. You must of missed the part about using out of game mechanics to spy. Of course these days it seems the only way to compete is to use every pathetic out of game tactic in the book.
Spaja Saist Gallente Knights of Retribution	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:04:00 - [69] Originally by: pershphanie Edited by: pershphanie on 08/11/2006 23:58:37 Originally by: Drusus Rensus You do understand the difference between in the game, and not in the game, right? Yeah, spying is fine IN THE GAME. Killing is fine IN THE GAME. Stealing is fine IN THE GAME. Some of the examples that he gave though, like doctoring a cap of a log-in screen with photoshop to prove to someone that you aren't an alt is lying OUTSIDE THE GAME. It is you (not your character), personally, lying to get an edge in a game, for crissakes. So in your opinion its not ok for people to lie out of game but screening out of game to get excepted into a corp is ok? If you are going to keep pulling the out of game card then you cant just use it when it's convient for you. If you were arugeing either that people should not use out of game methods all or people shouldnt lie at all then you might have a decent arguement. However it's total bs that you think you should be able to use out of game methods to achive better game play and your enemies shouldnt use those against you. Think spying is bad if it involves use of out of game resources? Fine by me. Dont use out of game resources yourself. Stop using TS, forums, requiring out of game screenshots, etc. That will stop all your problems with it and it. Untill then STFU with all your superior moral garbage. Originally by: Drusus Rensus People don't like to be spied on. Boohoo? Originally by: Drusus Rensus The hard cold fact is that if you would lie to get an edge in a game, you'll probably lie about just about anything. Personal integrity is just that; personal. So in your opinion warfare shouldnt involve deception? Super. Good luck with that. Why do so many BOB members act like children? I remember when you would never get smack from BOB members. These days all they do is insult people on the forums.
Joram McRory Caldari eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:26:00 - [70] For me it is simple - spying, telling lies etc is bad, dirty and cheating and I would never condone it in any game. IMO people should not forget this is a game not real life. In real life people have to resort to the above to save lives etc. In a game there is not that impreative so it should not be done. Joram My Photography site
Pinpisa Jormao	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:29:00 - [71] Originally by: wahwah And yes, I consider "support" (in the form of in game mechanics) to be encumbering. As it stands, espionage is dictated in terms of one's imagination and creativity. And I'm not talking about RP nonsense. I mean imagination and creativity in the same sense as non-traditional ship setups, or battlefield tactics. If "spy support" is added, it's going to become a "this is what constitutes spying; everything else is different and strange" approach to espionage. I think it's self-evident why that is the antithesis of what makes a sandbox game engaging. You are wrong on so many levels. The answer is Advanced Spying and Advanced Scamming. As they require imagination and creativity, they are Rank 12 skills. Each level of Scamming allows to exaggerate the value of an item in escrow by 100%. Each level of Spying increases the number of evemails you can send to player with hostile standing in a month by 1 without being detected by Spy Probe.
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:44:00 - [72] Originally by: Joram McRory For me it is simple - spying, telling lies etc is bad, dirty and cheating and I would never condone it in any game. IMO people should not forget this is a game not real life. In real life people have to resort to the above to save lives etc. In a game there is not that impreative so it should not be done. You're playing a game where one of the main goals is mass murder. But 'fibbing' in the same game is morally reprehensible?
Zrevak Ashek The Blackwater Brigade	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:47:00 - [73] Edited by: Zrevak Ashek on 10/11/2006 17:49:54 Originally by: Joram McRory For me it is simple - spying, telling lies etc is bad, dirty and cheating and I would never condone it in any game. IMO people should not forget this is a game not real life. In real life people have to resort to the above to save lives etc. In a game there is not that impreative so it should not be done. What most ppl in theis game continually fail to realise, is that some ppl look upon Eve as kinda "Master of Orion" on steroids. In that game, Espionage, counterintelligence, sabotage, diplomacy, subjugation, assimilation, tactical fleetbattles, research, manufacturing, conquest...ALL was integral to the gamemechanics. In Eve, as it has alot of human players, you get additional content; like f. ex. propaganda. Those who view Eve like a MMO ver of MOO, will use ALL of the methods mentioned above in order to win
Joram McRory Caldari eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:49:00 - [74] Originally by: Ab Initio Originally by: Joram McRory For me it is simple - spying, telling lies etc is bad, dirty and cheating and I would never condone it in any game. IMO people should not forget this is a game not real life. In real life people have to resort to the above to save lives etc. In a game there is not that impreative so it should not be done. You're playing a game where one of the main goals is mass murder. But 'fibbing' in the same game is morally reprehensible? I didn't say I was making any sense did I lol But as an attempt to rationalise my point of view. This is a game, so no one actually gets killed. But the players do actually tell lies. So yes lieing to gain access to a corp for the purpose of spying is still morally wrong. IMO ofc Joram My Photography site
SwindonBadger 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:57:00 - [75] anyone remeber spy v spy in mad magazine, I thinhk it adds to the game greatly and hearing one spy telling me about the story of another spy that he was following where they found each other out was comical. I have been on the receiving end as well as having some truely funny moments reading what the enemy really thinks of us....... or plans to do. on a more seriouse note I spy with my little eye something beggining with G ... English bob fingers on the buzzer please.
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:31:00 - [76] Edited by: Ab Initio on 10/11/2006 18:32:10 Originally by: Joram McRory I didn't say I was making any sense did I lol But as an attempt to rationalise my point of view. This is a game, so no one actually gets killed. But the players do actually tell lies. So yes lieing to gain access to a corp for the purpose of spying is still morally wrong. IMO ofc Morality isn't generally considered something you can implement only where it suits your cause. If you really believe that using counter-intelligence in a game means we're morally corrupt, perhaps you should take a look at some of your own actions: * You use spies. * You kill people. * You lie. That these actions are done under the flag of diplomacy does not pardon them. There is no way to play this game without taking part in war. Whether you are fighting yourself, or using a market that is funding someone elses war, you are part of the morally questionable machine called EVE. Either believe in morality in games, and stop playing, or treat this as a game and have fun with the rest of us.
Joram McRory Caldari eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.10 19:50:00 - [77] Edited by: Joram McRory on 10/11/2006 19:51:09 Originally by: Ab Initio Morality isn't generally considered something you can implement only where it suits your cause. If you really believe that using counter-intelligence in a game means we're morally corrupt, perhaps you should take a look at some of your own actions: * You use spies. * You kill people. * You lie. That these actions are done under the flag of diplomacy does not pardon them. There is no way to play this game without taking part in war. Whether you are fighting yourself, or using a market that is funding someone elses war, you are part of the morally questionable machine called EVE. Either believe in morality in games, and stop playing, or treat this as a game and have fun with the rest of us. Woah there a minute!! I lie?? I use spies?? I kill people?? Ok, I will conced the first - I have, on occasion, told the odd porky. But i have never done the other two. I have never knowingly been in a gang in EvE where a spy is being used. I certainly have never killed anyone!! My point was that the "war" in the game is just playing, not real, pretend, you know, a game!! And therefore is not sufficiently serious to be something worth lieing for. A workable counter argument to my point would be: that if it's not important why get all het up about the deciet - as it is only in the make believe world that the deciet has an effect. And that is where point of view and opinion comes into play. Either side of the argument are valid, I'll just stay on my side thank you. As for having fun - I personally have more fun playing within what I consider to be the spirit of the rules if not thier letter. I am making no moral jusgment here, just explaining my opinion! Joram My Photography site
Orc A Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.10 19:59:00 - [78] Quote: My point was that the "war" in the game is just playing, not real, pretend, you know, a game!! And therefore is not sufficiently serious to be something worth lieing for. Wait... so it's okey to kill people in a game, but lying is a no-no? Why? besides, Eve is an mmorpg, i can always say "It's my character that lied, not me" :p Originally by: End Yourself hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
Tholarim Amarr Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:07:00 - [79] Originally by: Mynas Atoch Originally by: pershphanie Thats not how spys gain access to forums/ts. Spys gain access to ts/forums by placing a character in the target corp/alliance. Then someone gives forum/ts access to that character. Since that really is your character you are not gaining access through misrepresentation. An Admin had to willingly gave your character access to those forums. Originally by: Mynas Atoch Lying and cheating out of game can have very different consequences to doing so in game. Claiming there is no dividing line is maybe not a wise course of action ... perhaps you should look harder for it. Lets look harder then. Director of Company A wants to know what's going on in Company B. Person C joins Company B, passes details from B's internal private voice communicatoins and internal forums to A. B had to willingly give C access. The law says its all Company B's fault for lax recruitment practices? Nope. Stick a legal notice on your out of games comms .. warn that its confidential information .. that such information should not be passed to third parties outside the context of the forum or private voice communcations (Vent/TS). Even stick a contract up on a website to be endorsed before accepting membership of your corp. Where has the line gone? If you need to metagame to beat ASCN it tarnishes your pilots victory and reputation. Myn posting without knowing facts or how things really go down is not smart either. ASCN isn't losing fights becus of spies is all i can tell you. But maybe your source is better then mine?
Otellus eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 21:02:00 - [80] So if TS spying is ok, I guess propaganda is ok too right?
Metal Dude Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 21:22:00 - [81] Originally by: Spaja Saist Originally by: Metal Dude Edited by: Metal Dude on 08/11/2006 22:59:52 Did any of you read the Players Guide when you started playing this game? http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g12.asp See the part about spying? I guess it's just easier for you to complain on the forums about it instead of using it like it was meant to be. Politics, spies, wars is what makes this game great. Maybe you should first read the guide and if you don't like it, go play some other game where you can get cheat code right to the end and push the win button, but for the love of god, stop whining like a bunch of little girls because you are too lazy to read and understand the rules. Spoken like a true BOB spy. You must of missed the part about using out of game mechanics to spy. Of course these days it seems the only way to compete is to use every pathetic out of game tactic in the book. I pointed you to the EVE guide where it specifically warns you about spies. Please point me to the part that states itÆs against the rules to use outside means of communication or that itÆs forbidden to infiltrate those means. On another note, whenever your HC gets Intel æfrom a reliable sourceÆ, where do you think they get it? ItÆs fine for ASCN to get Intel from spies but not BoB? Hypocrisy at itÆs best. If you want to talk about pathetic, how about Control-Q. No problem with that æin gameÆ pathetic tactic? Yea, I thought so, little ASCN alt. The truth will set you free
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 21:26:00 - [82] Originally by: Otellus So if TS spying is ok, I guess propaganda is ok too right? It's fine, though it doesn't help your side much if you are no good at it.
Otellus eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 21:30:00 - [83] Originally by: Ab Initio Originally by: Otellus So if TS spying is ok, I guess propaganda is ok too right? It's fine, though it doesn't help your side much if you are no good at it. Ok, just wondering. Cause you all get upset when we say things about you about your exploiting and living in moms basement as such. Regardless of whether its all true or not, one would be inclined to consider that propaganda, just like the lies you tell about our leaders. So I guess you won't complain about that anymore, right?
Zagum Darkfin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 21:41:00 - [84] Originally by: Otellus Originally by: Ab Initio Originally by: Otellus So if TS spying is ok, I guess propaganda is ok too right? It's fine, though it doesn't help your side much if you are no good at it. Ok, just wondering. Cause you all get upset when we say things about you about your exploiting and living in moms basement as such. Regardless of whether its all true or not, one would be inclined to consider that propaganda, just like the lies you tell about our leaders. So I guess you won't complain about that anymore, right? You honestly believe what they are telling you?? We do not have to make stuff up unlike some people. Quit being in DENIAL. Either provide proof of us lying or STFU.
Otellus eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.10 21:51:00 - [85] Originally by: Zagum Darkfin Originally by: Otellus Originally by: Ab Initio Originally by: Otellus So if TS spying is ok, I guess propaganda is ok too right? It's fine, though it doesn't help your side much if you are no good at it. Ok, just wondering. Cause you all get upset when we say things about you about your exploiting and living in moms basement as such. Regardless of whether its all true or not, one would be inclined to consider that propaganda, just like the lies you tell about our leaders. So I guess you won't complain about that anymore, right? You honestly believe what they are telling you?? We do not have to make stuff up unlike some people. Quit being in DENIAL. Either provide proof of us lying or STFU. LOL, you don't get it. I don't have to prove you're lying, just like you don't have to prove you're not lying. Its propaganda. Everybody can lie all they want. Its part of war. Think US, Iraq and the MWD scam. If I want to launch a smearcampaign against you its propaganda, just like when you lie about not exploiting nodecrashes or about the terrible things our leaders do to babies or whatever nonsense you spew. That's the level playing field you profess to want. You said it yourself, TS spies are ok, propaganda is ok. But that also means people can lie all they want about anyone else, because in essence, that is what propaganda most of the time comes down to. So perhaps think about it. Is that really what you want? Regardless of whether you win or lose a war, you could have a hundred people smearing your reputation every step of the way for the coming years about exploiting, hacking etc. Propaganda FTW! And if you want proof about lying, I'm too lazy to do the work, but I do remember earlier posts from some BoB about our leaders in Xetic, and later a rebuttal by KSUdruid saying that it happened differently when it was brought up again in another thread. Not sure if it was a complete contradiction to each other, but it certainly came pretty close.
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 22:21:00 - [86] Edited by: Ab Initio on 10/11/2006 22:25:19 Originally by: Otellus LOL, you don't get it. I don't have to prove you're lying, just like you don't have to prove you're not lying. Its propaganda. Everybody can lie all they want. Its part of war. Think US, Iraq and the MWD scam. If I want to launch a smearcampaign against you its propaganda, just like when you lie about not exploiting nodecrashes or about the terrible things our leaders do to babies or whatever nonsense you spew. That's the level playing field you profess to want. You said it yourself, TS spies are ok, propaganda is ok. But that also means people can lie all they want about anyone else, because in essence, that is what propaganda most of the time comes down to. So perhaps think about it. Is that really what you want? Regardless of whether you win or lose a war, you could have a hundred people smearing your reputation every step of the way for the coming years about exploiting, hacking etc. Propaganda FTW! And if you want proof about lying, I'm too lazy to do the work, but I do remember earlier posts from some BoB about our leaders in Xetic, and later a rebuttal by KSUdruid saying that it happened differently when it was brought up again in another thread. Not sure if it was a complete contradiction to each other, but it certainly came pretty close. We don't point out your leaderships lies because we are personally offended, we point it out because the majority of what they say is such blatant garbage that anyone reading it can have a good laugh. If you really believe that we are all leaving for Pirates of the Burning Seas, then you have nothing to worry about. EDIT: I'd go one step further and say that I would LOVE to see your leadership continue with their posts. I'm currently listening to 2 hours of Cyvok rallying the troops while reading a book, and It's top stuff!
pershphanie Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.11 00:37:00 - [87] Edited by: pershphanie on 11/11/2006 00:40:33 Originally by: Mynas Atoch Lets look harder then. Director of Company A wants to know what's going on in Company B. Person C joins Company B, passes details from B's internal private voice communicatoins and internal forums to A. B had to willingly give C access. The law says its all Company B's fault for lax recruitment practices? Nope. Sorry to have to be the one to break this to you, but eve is a game. The corps in eve arent RL corperations. You can't be two people at once in RL. In eve you can. There's nothing illegeal about spying, give it up. Originally by: Mynas Atoch Where has the line gone? I have a clear place of where I draw the line on what is acceptable to do in eve. I will not do anything in the game that I couldnt do if the eve galaxy were real nor will I do anything that CPP considers exploitive (reguardless of if I agree with it). Everything else is fair game to me. If eve were real you would be able to intercept enemy communications through espionage. I think the main reason of why people consider spying wrong is because TS/corp forums are not produced by CCP so using them to your advantage by spying is an "out of game mechanic". If you think that way keep in mind that if you are using that exact same "out of game mechanic" to gain an advantage if you use your own forums/ts. No one has given any reasonable explination here about why it is ok for them to use these third party products to gain an in game advantage, yet not ok for enemies to use them. Originally by: Mynas Atoch If you need to metagame to beat ASCN it tarnishes your pilots victory and reputation. Myn It may indeed tarnish pilots reputations in the mind of a few people. However victory is victory. It doesnt really matter what you think about it. The results are the same. The only way you can claim spying on TS is metagaming is if you think using TS is metagaming. Spying on TS is no more metagaming than pirating in empire or ganking a miner. TS/forums are part of the game. If you do not believe this and you use TS/forums then YOU are metagaming/exploiting by using them at all. You can't really believe that it is ok for your oponent to gain an ingame advantage on you by using a third party program but not ok for you to neutralize that advantage, can you? BoB plays every part of the game well. If you think this weakens us or tarnishes us then you are mistaken. Originally by: CYVOK If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
pershphanie Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.11 00:56:00 - [88] Originally by: Spaja Saist You must of missed the part about using out of game mechanics to spy. You are not argueing about if its not ok to use out of game mechanics. You arent saying whether or not the use of TS/forums is acceptable. You are argueing about how you can use those things. Who are you to dictate to people how they can or cant use something. Just because you did not intend for your TS to be used by your enemies for an advantage doesnt make it wrong to do so. I'm sure you dont intend to have your mining barge used as target practice for a vagabond. When that happens do you make "boohoo! bob h4x!" posts? It's exactly the same thing. Originally by: CYVOK If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-

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