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JabJabVVV
Total Mayhem.
Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:00:00 -
[1]
It seems to me that there is a lot of spying involved in Eve and many people seem to take the view that it's fair enough; it happens in the real world so why shouldn't it happen in Eve? If that is the case then do people think CCP should actually properly support spying rather than just turning a blind eye? At the moment it seems that spying is incredibly easy, if you are careful then there is a virtually 0% chance of being found out - you are completely anonymous behind your computer screen and the victims ways of investigating spying is incredibly limited (how long does it take to photoshop a realistic looking login screen or wallet shot, 5-10 minutes?). Would it not be better if CCP either banned it completely and took steps to punish those found guilty OR actually took steps to properly support it perhaps instigate methods of finding out hidden alts and other accounts, that sort of thing. Any thoughts?
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NeoTech
Out Siders
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:04:00 -
[2]
Edited by: NeoTech on 08/11/2006 21:04:25
Spying with ingame mechanics (like reading alliance mail and such) are 100% fair in my eyes. However spying OUT of eve is a totally different thing.
But no, it shouldn't be against the rule.
And no, this is not because we're suffering from it. :) just my personal oppinion. Wouldn't do it for anyone anyways, please respect my oppinion.
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konkord
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:24:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: NeoTech
Edited by: NeoTech on 08/11/2006 21:04:25
Spying with ingame mechanics (like reading alliance mail and such) are 100% fair in my eyes. However spying OUT of eve is a totally different thing.
But no, it shouldn't be against the rule.
And no, this is not because we're suffering from it. :) just my personal oppinion. Wouldn't do it for anyone anyways, please respect my oppinion.
I agree, spying is fine, implant a rogueblokey in our corp... have him listen in, but havin spies in TS just ruins it. It kmust ruin the game for BoB a bit too - takes the satisfacction out of a righteous fleet battle.
Shame really. letting yourselves down.
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Drusus Rensus
Gallente
Klima Galactic
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:25:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 08/11/2006 21:29:22
Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 08/11/2006 21:26:59
Originally by: JabJabVVV
It seems to me that there is a lot of spying involved in Eve and many people seem to take the view that it's fair enough; it happens in the real world so why shouldn't it happen in Eve? If that is the case then do people think CCP should actually properly support spying rather than just turning a blind eye? At the moment it seems that spying is incredibly easy, if you are careful then there is a virtually 0% chance of being found out - you are completely anonymous behind your computer screen and the victims ways of investigating spying is incredibly limited (how long does it take to photoshop a realistic looking login screen or wallet shot, 5-10 minutes?). Would it not be better if CCP either banned it completely and took steps to punish those found guilty OR actually took steps to properly support it perhaps instigate methods of finding out hidden alts and other accounts, that sort of thing. Any thoughts?
In a game, you suspend your own personal, real world ethics and enter a world where things are ethical that wouldn't be outside the game. Killing is the best example. We don't go around killing our enemies away from the game (most of us, anyway) but in the game it's perfectly acceptable.
When you engage in meta-game deceit and fraud (like the example that you gave of faking a log-in screen with photoshop) or telling someone lies on the telephone to gain access to their voice chat, or whatever, you have left the game and you are engaging in fraud and deceit in the real world outside the game. When you do that, you cross the boundry between playing a game in a virtual world where anything goes, to being an actual liar and cheat.
When someone lies and cheats for the sake of a game, what it says about them is that they will lie and cheat over things that don't really matter all that much. In other words, lying and cheating come easily and cheaply for them. They probably aren't people you'd want to know in person, or trust in any way whatsoever.
That's what I think.
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Roxanna Kell
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:29:00 -
[5]
Spying is part of RL, CCP can Hardly deal with their current Petitioned issues, they sure don't want more on their backsides.
Quote:
"Don't touch the RED butt |
Max Teranous
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:05:00 -
[6]
Originally by: konkord
Originally by: NeoTech
Edited by: NeoTech on 08/11/2006 21:04:25
Spying with ingame mechanics (like reading alliance mail and such) are 100% fair in my eyes. However spying OUT of eve is a totally different thing.
But no, it shouldn't be against the rule.
And no, this is not because we're suffering from it. :) just my personal oppinion. Wouldn't do it for anyone anyways, please respect my oppinion.
I agree, spying is fine, implant a rogueblokey in our corp... have him listen in, but havin spies in TS just ruins it. It kmust ruin the game for BoB a bit too - takes the satisfacction out of a righteous fleet battle.
Shame really. letting yourselves down.
With kali the lines can be blurred alot. What will you think about spies using the in game voice client to listen in? Why is that different to using TS?
Max 
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:07:00 -
[7]
The Gang improvements + voice integration will cut down the effectiveness of spies as you will (hopefully) be able to easily talk to people without anyone listening in during fleet ops (like a covert ops reporting targets to the commander).
As for forum spies, the simplest solutions are 1) always assume your general forums are comprimised and 2) don't mislead your own alliance, as the spies will take great pleasure in exposing it for all to see.
_______________________________________
Sign the petition against jump queues! |
Metal Dude
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:49:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Metal Dude on 08/11/2006 22:59:52
Did any of you read the Players Guide when you started playing this game?
http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g12.asp
See the part about spying? I guess it's just easier for you to complain on the forums about it instead of using it like it was meant to be. Politics, spies, wars is what makes this game great. Maybe you should first read the guide and if you don't like it, go play some other game where you can get cheat code right to the end and push the win button, but for the love of god, stop whining like a bunch of little girls because you are too lazy to read and understand the rules.
The truth will set you free
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: NeoTech
Edited by: NeoTech on 08/11/2006 21:04:25
Spying with ingame mechanics (like reading alliance mail and such) are 100% fair in my eyes. However spying OUT of eve is a totally different thing.
But no, it shouldn't be against the rule.
I dont follow your logic at all. If spying on TS/forums is unfair because it involves using out of game methods then why is it fair for you to use TS/forums at all?I dont see the difference.
Your arguement is -
spying on ts/forums = out of game = wrong
using ts/forums = out of game = ok?
If you consider the use of TS/forums an acceptable part of game play then you must consider spy on them an acceptable part of game play as well. Nothing else really makes sense.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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Drusus Rensus
Gallente
Klima Galactic
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Posted - 2006.11.08 23:29:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Metal Dude
See the part about spying? I guess it's just easier for you to complain on the forums about it instead of using it like it was meant to be. Politics, spies, wars is what makes this game great. Maybe you should first read the guide and if you don't like it, go play some other game where you can get cheat code right to the end and push the win button, but for the love of god, stop whining like a bunch of little girls because you are too lazy to read and understand the rules.
You do understand the difference between in the game, and not in the game, right? Yeah, spying is fine IN THE GAME. Killing is fine IN THE GAME. Stealing is fine IN THE GAME. Some of the examples that he gave though, like doctoring a cap of a log-in screen with photoshop to prove to someone that you aren't an alt is lying OUTSIDE THE GAME. It is you (not your character), personally, lying to get an edge in a game, for crissakes.
People don't like to be spied on. Consequently, most alliances and corps are probably going to ask for a personal OUT OF GAME assurance of some kind that you are who you say you are, and not someone's alt. You've got an ethical choice at that point. You can either refuse to give personal, 0UT OF GAME proof of your identity, or you (you personally, not your character) can choose to lie or cheat (like doctoring a screen cap) so that you can get an edge in the game. "Everyone does it" isn't an ethical defense. The hard cold fact is that if you would lie to get an edge in a game, you'll probably lie about just about anything. Personal integrity is just that; personal. Nobody has to live with it but you, and any poor soul who chooses to trust you.
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Sexorella hotz
Beasts of Burden
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.08 23:29:00 -
[11]
I think the ability to background check a character should be improved, IE being able to know who their alts are, and so forth. If I'm running a corporation(in RL) and my assets are at risk(intellectual and physical), then I would do a full background check on whoever I hire. That's not possible in EVE so spying, thieving, and the likes are all far too easy.
Yes, I think spying should be possible, but I think the tools of the CEO to prevent spying, corp thieving, and the likes, should be greater as well. Right now its just too **** easy to be realistic.
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.08 23:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
You do understand the difference between in the game, and not in the game, right? Yeah, spying is fine IN THE GAME. Killing is fine IN THE GAME. Stealing is fine IN THE GAME. Some of the examples that he gave though, like doctoring a cap of a log-in screen with photoshop to prove to someone that you aren't an alt is lying OUTSIDE THE GAME. It is you (not your character), personally, lying to get an edge in a game, for crissakes.
So in your opinion its not ok for people to lie out of game but screening out of game to get excepted into a corp is ok?
If you are going to keep pulling the out of game card then you cant just use it when it's convient for you. If you were arugeing either that people should not use out of game methods all or people shouldnt lie at all then you might have a decent arguement. However it's total bs that you think you should be able to use out of game methods to achive better game play and your enemies shouldnt use those against you.
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
Think spying is bad if it involves use of out of game resources? Fine by me. Dont use out of game resources yourself. Stop using TS, forums, requiring out of game screenshots, etc. That will stop all your problems with it and it. Untill then STFU with all your superior moral garbage.
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
People don't like to be spied on.
Boohoo?
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
The hard cold fact is that if you would lie to get an edge in a game, you'll probably lie about just about anything. Personal integrity is just that; personal.
So in your opinion warfare shouldnt involve deception?
Super. Good luck with that.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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Drusus Rensus
Gallente
Klima Galactic
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Posted - 2006.11.09 00:48:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 09/11/2006 00:54:11
Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 09/11/2006 00:48:38
Originally by: pershphanie
So in your opinion its not ok for people to lie out of game but screening out of game to get excepted into a corp is ok?
If you are going to keep pulling the out of game card then you cant just use it when it's convient for you. If you were arugeing either that people should not use out of game methods all or people shouldnt lie at all then you might have a decent arguement. However it's total bs that you think you should be able to use out of game methods to achive better game play and your enemies shouldnt use those against you.
That's not what I said. I said that if someone asks you for out of game assurances that you don't also play a character for their enemy, and you choose to make those assurances, you, personally, are lying. You might think it sucks that they protect themselves by requiring those kinds of assurances before letting you into their in game corp/alliance, and maybe it does. That doesn't change the fact at all that you, personally, are choosing to lie if they ask you, personally, to give assurances that you don't play a character for their enemy. It's telling a lie, and being a fraud. Not in the game, but in the real world.
Is it important enough to you to get an advantage in game that you would do that? Only you can answer that. I'll tell you here and now that it's not important enough to me. If you feel like you need to sacrifice your personal integrity to beat me at a game, go right ahead. It's just a game, and it will never be that important to me.
... loss of self-control snipped
Quote:
So in your opinion warfare shouldnt involve deception?
Super. Good luck with that.
Nah, warfare should involve all kinds of deception. Warfare in a game should involve all kinds of deception in the game. When you start using out of game deception to win at a game, it's a pretty good sign that the game has started to mean a little too much to you, and it might be time to take a step back. Yeah, I know, it's totally unfair that they would make you lie, personally, to infiltrate their alliance. They can't make you do it though. Only you can make that choice.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.09 00:57:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Dianabolic on 09/11/2006 00:58:46
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
...in the game.
You keep saying this but you don't seem to be grasping that any form of communications connected to eve, your corporate forums, or your teamspeak, is an EXTENSION of "the game".
Anywhere that you use your in-game name is connected to, therefor part of, "the game".
Sheesh. Heck, if you wish we can agree that seeing as eve has an ingame browser anything we access through it is also part of the game, but some content has absolutely zero to do with eve, so how can we?
edit: that being said I do believe that the counter-espionage facilities in eve are sadly lacking, we had a discussion a few years ago on skill related solutions we'd like to see for this (even the ability to link and find out who had what chars on which accounts and all that jazz) that never got past an eve-o thread and no dev attention (iirc). So, sure, tools to prevent it need to be more, but it should STILL exist and be as free form as possible. Hell, our server admins and forum moderators actually ENJOY the espionage side of it, it's good practice for them as most of them are sysadmins.
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:02:00 -
[15]
Edited by: pershphanie on 09/11/2006 01:03:00
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
Nah, warfare should involve all kinds of deception. Warfare in a game should involve all kinds of deception in the game.
Fair enough. However you still arent getting my point. I'll simplify it abit.
If the use of forums, ts, etc are considered legitimate to use to enhance gameplay then spying on them is also legitimate.
You cant consider forums/ts part of fair game play when it benifits you then consider your enemy using them to their advantage out of game unfair game play when your enemy uses them to their advantage.
Either using TS/forums are unfair to use because they are out of game or they are a fair game which makes them perfectly legitimate and moral to spy on.
If someone is attacking your TS through DOS attacks then I would agree with you. That is using an external force to attack you which is no fair play. However if someone gets access to your TS by ingame infiltration then it is completly legit.
You cant have your cake and eat it too. Either using ts/internal is an exploit or they are fair game. If they are fair game then spying on them is fair game as well.
I dont understand why that seems to be so complicated for people to understand.
Either you are an exploiter for using TS/forums or you have no reason to complain about people spying on them.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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Roxanna Kell
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:10:00 -
[16]
anyways, you guys will get in game voice, so if u cant have a safet TS, use CCP's Service, than the only spy has to be in the gang at that time, makes it easier to catch, and less likely that someone may be listening in.
Quote:
"Don't touch the RED butt |
Drusus Rensus
Gallente
Klima Galactic
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:12:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 09/11/2006 01:19:55
Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 09/11/2006 01:13:52
Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 09/11/2006 01:12:25
Originally by: Dianabolic
Edited by: Dianabolic on 09/11/2006 00:58:46
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
...in the game.
You keep saying this but you don't seem to be grasping that any form of communications connected to eve, your corporate forums, or your teamspeak, is an EXTENSION of "the game".
Ok, let me show you what's not an extension of the game:
Recruiter> What's your name?
Me> Ed
Recruiter> I'm John, good to meet you.
Recruiter> How long have you been playing Ed?
Me> About six months
Recruiter> Do you play any characters besides Drusus, Ed?
Me> No, only Drusus (that's a lie, BTW, I have a character in an enemy alliance).
Recruiter> Do me a favor and send me a screen shot of your log-in screen, Ed. Can't be too careful.
Me> Sure, I'll do that right away. (doctored screen-shot to follow).
So, I ask you, valid in-game tactic, or is that me, personally, lying? I agree with you that enemy coms are fair game. No question there. I even agree that Alliance X asking me personally to vouch for the fact that I don't have any alts in an enemy alliance kinda steps on game play. But a lie is still a lie, no? If you can't gain access to their forums, or TS, or whatever, without doing it, then you have to decide whether you, personally, are willing to lie for the sake of a game. Yes, or no?
Edit: I agree with you, by the way, that better intelligence and counter-intelligence tools in the game would be fun to play with, but I think they'll always be trumped by a recruiter asking questions like those above. It's still going to come down to being willing to lie personally, or not.
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
Ok, let me show you what's not an extension of the game:
Recruiter> What's your name?
Me> Ed
Recruiter> I'm John, good to meet you.
Recruiter> How long have you been playing Ed?
Me> About six months
Recruiter> Do you play any characters besides Drusus, Ed?
Me> No, only Drusus (that's a lie, BTW, I have a character in an enemy alliance).
Recruiter> Do me a favor and send me a screen shot of your log-in screen, Ed. Can't be too careful.
Me> Sure, I'll do that right away. (doctored screen-shot to follow).
So, I ask you, valid in-game tactic, or is that me, personally, lying?
Your definition of lying happens to include pretty much ALL role play. It is a game. Why is RPing a spy bad? Yes it is lying but that doesnt make it wrong. You are not obligated to be loyal to every single character you meet ingame. Deceving your enemy is part of war.
Even if you have a conversation with members of the corp you are trying to inflitrate and that convo appears to be about RL stuff you can still be roleplaying a spy. I dont see a problem at all unless you consider all role players immoral and lying.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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Drusus Rensus
Gallente
Klima Galactic
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Posted - 2006.11.09 01:46:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 09/11/2006 01:46:40
Originally by: pershphanie
Quote:
Your definition of lying happens to include pretty much ALL role play. It is a game. Why is RPing a spy bad? Yes it is lying but that doesnt make it wrong. You are not obligated to be loyal to every single character you meet ingame. Deceving your enemy is part of war.
Even if you have a conversation with members of the corp you are trying to inflitrate and that convo appears to be about RL stuff you can still be roleplaying a spy. I dont see a problem at all unless you consider all role players immoral and lying.
Absolutely agreed. Roleplaying is fair game. Roleplaying a spy is fair game. If the general rule about eve is that whenever you talk to someone in or about the game its understood that all conversations are "in character", then peachy. HOWEVER. If the other guy doesn't know it's role-playing, guess what? It's not. Roleplaying is a mutual, consensual activity.
When someone starts asking about the characters you play and for screen shots of log-in pages and other meta-game type questions, I think it's pretty safe to say that they don't think they're roleplaying, no? I suppose you could say "hey, I'm a roleplayer, so I'm not about to answer any meta-game or RL questions, and any answers I give you will be in character. If that's a problem, I can't play in your alliance". Then the recruiter would have to either take his chances, or not, yes?
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Shardrael
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:04:00 -
[20]
honestly I dont like spying period but that is just my oppinion, spies are ebil afterall....
but if they are gonna have it in the game I would rather there be a system in place to use and detect them with,
I have no fracking clue how to go about that, but I think it would be a little better if there was an ingame mechanic to both become a spy and to flesh them out...
/dons flamesuit
Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Caldari have other options like using rails or train for other ships/weapons...
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:20:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 09/11/2006 02:22:06
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
Roleplaying is a mutual, consensual activity.
Don't think so.
If a pirate decides to play his role and sticks to it, then he doesn't need to make roleplay consensual with his victims. Sorry, I think that would be boring. If the pirate sticks to his role, but the victim doesn't get it, then it's no reason for the pirate to stop roleplaying imho. It's the victims problem.
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Droewa
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:31:00 -
[22]
Spying is bad and should not be done no matter what!!!
Unless i'm doing it to you. then it is perfectly fine..
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:47:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Shardrael
honestly I dont like spying period but that is just my oppinion, spies are ebil afterall....
but if they are gonna have it in the game I would rather there be a system in place to use and detect them with,
I have no fracking clue how to go about that, but I think it would be a little better if there was an ingame mechanic to both become a spy and to flesh them out...
/dons flamesuit
There are ingame mechanics to become a spy. Just goto the WTS forum. Trade some isk for a character. Put that character in a politically neutral corp for a few months. Enter a station where the corp you would like to spy on has a corperate office. Hit apply to corp. All that stays inside game mechanics.
There are also some very good and reliable ways (beyond hersay and asking around) to decect spys in your alliance if you have a spy in the enemy alliance. How? I'll let you figure that out :)
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:59:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Shardrael
I have no fracking clue how to go about that, but I think it would be a little better if there was an ingame mechanic to both become a spy and to flesh them out...
You could, for instance, try to release different information to different sections of your alliance - for instance, telling one corp that you'll be attacking one system and another corp another system and so forth, and then see what the corp you think has infiltrated you does. If they reinforce system A, then you know that corp A is the one that has a spy in it, and so on and so forth.
Once you've narrowed down the area you think is infiltrated, you could try to give the suspects some piece of documentation that is too good to pass up, specifically intended for it to be posted on the forums and thus have you ridiculed, and give the same thing to multiple suspects but change key points of punctuation, note down who got what, and look at which version surfaces.
This is of course much easier said than done, and it becomes harder and harder the more infiltrated you are, but at least its something 
my thoughts are my own and do not represent the thoughts of my corp |
RogueWing
Vanguard Frontiers
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.09 03:13:00 -
[25]
I always find it amazing that the people who beat their chest and proclaim how "uber" they are is the ones that have to resort to spying in order to win.
Only in ASCN would someone consider the solution to being short an office to be "Drop another Outpost" |
INZi
coracao ardente
Sani Khal'Vecna
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Posted - 2006.11.09 03:18:00 -
[26]
Edited by: INZi on 09/11/2006 03:18:43
lets go cpl and the cs final.
set our guy from our team, behind the back off the opponents team and watch their screen shall we?
it's all fine, aint it? or err..?
edit.
off course it's not legit to use outside mechanics to spy on your opponents
..
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Shardrael
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.09 05:48:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Shardrael on 09/11/2006 05:49:33
ok let me clarify, I know its possible now using ingame mechanics to spy on people and I know its possible now using strategy and certains tactics to smoke out a spy, that was not what I was talking about,
I was talking about someway in game designed to make a char ready for spying, as in something that could maybe hide corp history or grant access to certain aspects of a corp without permission, but then also put ways in game to counter this through the use of an ingame mechanism, in other words make it a part of the game you can actually play as opposed to roleplay. if that makes any sense.....
please dont tell me how you spy now though as I understand that I am just wishing that if it were to be an accepted and practiced portion of the game that there would be more game rules specifically setup to manage it....
thats about as clear as I can say it
Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Caldari have other options like using rails or train for other ships/weapons...
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.09 06:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shardrael
Edited by: Shardrael on 09/11/2006 05:49:33
ok let me clarify, I know its possible now using ingame mechanics to spy on people and I know its possible now using strategy and certains tactics to smoke out a spy, that was not what I was talking about,
I was talking about someway in game designed to make a char ready for spying, as in something that could maybe hide corp history or grant access to certain aspects of a corp without permission, but then also put ways in game to counter this through the use of an ingame mechanism, in other words make it a part of the game you can actually play as opposed to roleplay. if that makes any sense.....
please dont tell me how you spy now though as I understand that I am just wishing that if it were to be an accepted and practiced portion of the game that there would be more game rules specifically setup to manage it....
thats about as clear as I can say it
Ah, ok. I misuderstood you. Thought it was a "bob cheats!" post. My bad.
I agree. That would be cool. Most aspect of eve require both skillpoints and experience/skill to be good at. So why not spying too? Would be a fun new part of eve if we had a spying skilltree + mods.
To all those who say there arent enough effective countermeasures to prevent spying.. Well that just isnt true. There are some very effective ways to catch spys in a corp. Just because you dont know about them doesnt mean they dont exist.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
|
Hesed
Hamartia.
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Posted - 2006.11.09 06:34:00 -
[29]
Points to live by:
-Blue status is largely accidental.
-Movements come and go.
-Players are always on their own side.
The only way to carry out an operation is to only include people that actually participate in the loop. If your corporation isn't set up to act like Big Brother, then it hardly deserves to retain its articles of incorporation*.
*Unless it is a hippy Gallente corporation.
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NeoTech
Out Siders
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 08:52:00 -
[30]
Since BoB are so eager to defend their use of TS Spies i just wanted to say why i personally do not approve of it.
It has been mentioned tons of times, but EvE IS a game!. And everything done with EvE mechanics are awesome, and really helps with the drama in battles like these.
However IMO theres no difference from macro-mining and TS Spying. Macro mining uses out of game mechanics to further their ingame progress, so do TS spying and forum spying.
The difference however is that macro mining doesn't hurt my gameplay, i dont give a rats ass about micro mining, since it none of my business... however, TS spying costs our alliance billions and billions of ISKs + its just boring.
The argument that we should just stop using other softwares in our EvE playing is a little unlogical. We all know that its impossible to win a fleet battle without TS, and impossible to discuss anything with the alliance, without a forum. My standpoint on this is that a forum and TS channel is private, thats why its called an internal forum. :)
We're currently running insurgency tactics atm. (that, you know if you're on the frontline, i'm not saying u are not.)
And this makes it very difficult. We warp in, u warp out. and repeat all day. Thats pretty much standard atm.
This is ofc from my viewpoint and does not represent any other than me. so ignore my alliance tag if possible. :)
I dont know how the average BoB feels about it, it must kill some of the adrenaline rushes during fleet combat. ;) However theres nothing we can really do about it. We have taken all the neccesary steps to try and secure our current TS channels. However its impossible with a member count of 5000. :)
But we're having a blast, and out TS is 99% more secure than it was pre-war. So we have learned a very important lesson. :)
Sincerely
NeoTech
Sorry for the long post. :P
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slothe
Caldari
Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 08:58:00 -
[31]
ive been on both sides of the fence. when our alliance fought 5 they knew our every move which was extremely iritating and demoralising.
when we did the "backstabbing manouvre (tm)" and fought with 5 iwas able tosee how it worked. when we were in a fleet battle we could hear on our ts the opposite fleets ts. pretty impressive. we knew exactly what they were doing which gave us a huge advantage.
right or wrong depends what side your on i guess.
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Damir36
Gallente
PPN United
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:30:00 -
[32]
I really have no Problem with spies as they belong to the game and sometimes it is even a good laugh what they pick up (ofc sometimes you are at the recieving end of the joke  ), but what I miss is a proper way to deal with them. You just can`t declare war on any Corp/Ally that hosts him in his further career, and if he goes to Empire you can`t even shoot him.
As opposit to RL there is no police Force in Eve to hunt a convicted criminal (and rightly so) but to just get away by Clonejump, Carrier... is just too easy.
What I`m getting at is that the "job" Spy in EvE is just to easy, the Consequences for being found out nonexistent. Thats why most of the Spys I have seen (ok, granted maybe the intelligent ones are not caught  ) are on the lower end of the intelligence scala. There is no challenge in this for experienced Players.
But if there where serious repercussions (dunno which) as well as added incentive (like getting at the mail of your Commanders or somthing) then it woud be a proper carreer in Eve and would`nt attract only the sorry Idiots that now do the spying because the can`t do anything useful in the game.
(my two Cents, does not reflect my Corp or my Alliance)
Grn¯e
Damir
Beware: German Link!:)
Deutschprachige Piloten gesucht |
Orc A
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 10:49:00 -
[33]
Tbh, what i don't get is people's whining and b*tching about Spies.
I mean, i can understand the frustration of being spies upon, but come on, If there is a spy in your corp/alliance/TS, it's only your own **** fault.
Intelligence warfare is a big part of War. Even Sun Tzu, in his ancient writings spoke of their importance in any campaign.
Just as there are spies, there are Counter spies.
If yu got a spy in your ranks, it's only because you weren't careful enough with who you give security clearance to.
Your inabillity to maintain your Security is the problem here, not the existance of spies to begin with.
Originally by: End Yourself
hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
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Orc A
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 10:50:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Damir36
I really have no Problem with spies as they belong to the game and sometimes it is even a good laugh what they pick up (ofc sometimes you are at the recieving end of the joke ), but what I miss is a proper way to deal with them. You just can`t declare war on any Corp/Ally that hosts him in his further career, and if he goes to Empire you can`t even shoot him.
As opposit to RL there is no police Force in Eve to hunt a convicted criminal (and rightly so) but to just get away by Clonejump, Carrier... is just too easy.
What I`m getting at is that the "job" Spy in EvE is just to easy, the Consequences for being found out nonexistent. Thats why most of the Spys I have seen (ok, granted maybe the intelligent ones are not caught ) are on the lower end of the intelligence scala. There is no challenge in this for experienced Players.
But if there where serious repercussions (dunno which) as well as added incentive (like getting at the mail of your Commanders or somthing) then it woud be a proper carreer in Eve and would`nt attract only the sorry Idiots that now do the spying because the can`t do anything useful in the game.
(my two Cents, does not reflect my Corp or my Alliance)
Well, you'd be amazed but there are also stupid spies, that attempt to sell intel to the enemy using their main o.0.
Go fig, eh?
Originally by: End Yourself
hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
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NeoTech
Out Siders
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 14:15:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Orc A
Tbh, what i don't get is people's whining and b*tching about Spies.
I mean, i can understand the frustration of being spies upon, but come on, If there is a spy in your corp/alliance/TS, it's only your own **** fault.
Intelligence warfare is a big part of War. Even Sun Tzu, in his ancient writings spoke of their importance in any campaign.
Just as there are spies, there are Counter spies.
If yu got a spy in your ranks, it's only because you weren't careful enough with who you give security clearance to.
Your inabillity to maintain your Security is the problem here, not the existance of spies to begin with.
I'm sorry but ur reply doesn't really stay logical.
Forum access, TS access... Its 2 things that all alliance members should have access to. How would u fight a war if no one had TS access?.
Please tell me how u can secure it all. :)
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Mr dummy
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 14:52:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Mr dummy on 09/11/2006 14:52:51
Originally by: JabJabVVV
Would it not be better if CCP either banned it completely and took steps to punish those found guilty OR actually took steps to properly support it perhaps instigate methods of finding out hidden alts and other accounts, that sort of thing. Any thoughts?
It's a sandbox game. We don't need game mechanics micromanaging our actions, or dictating the terms of everything that happens in the game. If you want that, go play WoW.
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Shardrael
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:08:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Damir36
I really have no Problem with spies as they belong to the game and sometimes it is even a good laugh what they pick up (ofc sometimes you are at the recieving end of the joke ), but what I miss is a proper way to deal with them. You just can`t declare war on any Corp/Ally that hosts him in his further career, and if he goes to Empire you can`t even shoot him.
As opposit to RL there is no police Force in Eve to hunt a convicted criminal (and rightly so) but to just get away by Clonejump, Carrier... is just too easy.
What I`m getting at is that the "job" Spy in EvE is just to easy, the Consequences for being found out nonexistent. Thats why most of the Spys I have seen (ok, granted maybe the intelligent ones are not caught ) are on the lower end of the intelligence scala. There is no challenge in this for experienced Players.
But if there where serious repercussions (dunno which) as well as added incentive (like getting at the mail of your Commanders or somthing) then it woud be a proper carreer in Eve and would`nt attract only the sorry Idiots that now do the spying because the can`t do anything useful in the game.
(my two Cents, does not reflect my Corp or my Alliance)
see this is what I am talking about, more actual interaction in game with spies, right now it is too easy to spy in game cause there is nothing to regulate it and no punishments for getting caught....
I think it might require an entire new race/class of character type of deal but would be alot more fun if it was more officially made a part of the game
and yes please dont lump me in as saying anything I am not but thanks for appologizing
Originally by: Pinky Denmark
Caldari have other options like using rails or train for other ships/weapons...
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JabJabVVV
Total Mayhem.
Maelstrom Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:14:00 -
[38]
Quote:
It's a sandbox game. We don't need game mechanics micromanaging our actions, or dictating the terms of everything that happens in the game. If you want that, go play WoW.
Oh joy, my first personal attack by an anonymous alt on the forums. I feel like a true forum warrior at last
However I feel you have rather missed the point of my post (as have the others who have suggested I am a whiny little carebear who would be better off playing WoW or some other 'lesser' game.)
My gripe was not with spying but with CCP's implementation of spying. At the moment they allow it however they fail to take any steps to implement it properly within the game. I simply believe that there is potential for making the game more interesting and enjoyable if they actually took steps to support information warfare and from the replies it seems that there are a lot of people thinking the same thing.
Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
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Drusus Rensus
Gallente
Klima Galactic
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:50:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Drusus Rensus on 09/11/2006 16:51:54
What it all comes down to is whether it's OK by Eve standards to lie and defraud out of game to further your in game goals. If the consensus answer is yes, then it's perfectly OK to lie your butt of if someone asks you a question that they expect you (not your character) to answer truthfully, or provide some kind of out of game proof (like a screen cap) that you're telling the truth.
What sucks about that is that means it's not really possible to make any friends in this game, since it would be perfectly fine to buddy up to someone just so that you could infiltrate or steal from his corporation or alliance. You can't really treat people that you meet through Eve as actual people. You have to assume that they're "in character" all the time, and may well be trying to gain your confidence so that they can scam you for in-game gain.
If that's the state of the Eve community, and the way some of the largest entities in Eve operate, I think it's pretty pathetic, not to put too fine a point on it. I've made some good friends over the years playing RPGs of various kinds. I don't think that would have been possible if they didn't understand where the game ends, and personal relationships and integrity begin.
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Loedem
Minmatar
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:51:00 -
[40]
In my opinion, spying gets into a messy grey area when taken outside CCP's intention of allowing spying (in game).
I won't get into the RL legal aspects of unauthorized use of resources ( ugh, that thread just got ridiculous and blown out of proportion..and I don't think many people understood when it actually becomes "unauthorized" ). But I do wonder where you draw the line when addressing this out of game. I'm not saying spying like this is bad, but I am giving this real serious thought personally.
This is going to sound silly, and it is unrealistic, but "what if" things escalated to finding out where pilots lived..invading their privacy by spying on their routines, parking outside their houses for survellance in an unassuming pizza delivery van? Yea far fetched, less exaggerated would be...what if their email, phones, etc were being tapped into? Sure it's unrealistic, but it makes me wonder how far some of these hard core spies will go.
To me, it appears that these are all outside resources for information that invade privacy and aren't physically tied to the game mechanics. This doesn't really upset me... as forums and TS aren't as big of a deal as something more personal...but I just don't buy the counter arguement that we shouldn't use these things if we don't want them spied on. It's like saying, don't eat if you want to avoid being poisoned by someone that pretends to be your friend. :P
Parts of this will become a moot issue tho, as Kali will bring voice chat into the game...and as long as CCP allows spying within EvE, spies will be allowed into alliances and will be given access to resources that allow them to spy further.
I think that's grounds I would stand on for this issue, if the spy was invited to the information...then he/she is privy to it..there's nothing wrong with that really. When it comes to deceitful, unauthorized access (eg. hacking, stealing passwords, etc) it become closer to an outright crime. There is no way CCP could take a legal standpoint on these issues that spring up out of game. I don't see how they could...
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Mr dummy
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 17:35:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Mr dummy on 09/11/2006 17:42:38
Originally by: JabJabVVV
Oh joy, my first personal attack by an anonymous alt on the forums. I feel like a true forum warrior at last
Being as I'm posting this on an alt, I hope it lasts long enough for you to read it. My comment was not meant as a personal attack. I'm simply pointing out that the thing that seperates Eve from prit-near every other MMO out there is it's open nature (due to it being a sandbox game). There are already plenty of other games that have encumbering rulesets. Eve, by comparison, is open.
Quote:
However I feel you have rather missed the point of my post (as have the others who have suggested I am a whiny little carebear who would be better off playing WoW or some other 'lesser' game.)
My gripe was not with spying but with CCP's implementation of spying. At the moment they allow it however they fail to take any steps to implement it properly within the game. I simply believe that there is potential for making the game more interesting and enjoyable if they actually took steps to support information warfare and from the replies it seems that there are a lot of people thinking the same thing.
I didn't miss your point. I disagree with it. I don't want yet another ruleset added to the game. It ruins Eve's open nature. The best thing about CCP's implemention of spying it that there is no implementaion of spying. It's completely based on trust (or paranoia), and not encumbered by in-game mechanics.
And yes, I consider "support" (in the form of in game mechanics) to be encumbering. As it stands, espionage is dictated in terms of one's imagination and creativity. And I'm not talking about RP nonsense. I mean imagination and creativity in the same sense as non-traditional ship setups, or battlefield tactics. If "spy support" is added, it's going to become a "this is what constitutes spying; everything else is different and strange" approach to espionage. I think it's self-evident why that is the antithesis of what makes a sandbox game engaging.
Edit - Mods: instead of deleting this post, consider moving this thead to a forum more appropriate for it's subject matter. This is really more of a "General Discussion" topic.
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Eiro
ISS Logistics
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 18:50:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Eiro on 09/11/2006 18:52:40
Originally by: Shardrael
Edited by: Shardrael on 09/11/2006 05:49:33
ok let me clarify, I know its possible now using ingame mechanics to spy on people and I know its possible now using strategy and certains tactics to smoke out a spy, that was not what I was talking about,
I was talking about someway in game designed to make a char ready for spying, as in something that could maybe hide corp history or grant access to certain aspects of a corp without permission, but then also put ways in game to counter this through the use of an ingame mechanism, in other words make it a part of the game you can actually play as opposed to roleplay. if that makes any sense.....
please dont tell me how you spy now though as I understand that I am just wishing that if it were to be an accepted and practiced portion of the game that there would be more game rules specifically setup to manage it....
thats about as clear as I can say it
People would simply avoid using those parts of the game (where possible) that could be spied upon by in-game methods, and move to out-of-game methods where it is more difficult to do so.
A lot of people complain about "out-of-game" methods of spying (yes I know you, Shardrael, are not saying this), but nobody seems to mind using "out-of-game" methods to AVOID spies. You can't have it both ways and maintain any kind of moral high ground. Meta-gaming methods for filtering out spies, like asking for screenshots etc, is just as much cheating as TS spying is, as there is no in-game way of acquiring that information.
None of the above means in any way that I *condone* alt-spying (including alt scouts and the like), I'm just saying that there's no real moral superiority on either end of the out-of-game spying discussion. Personally, I think it's a crappy way to play the game and poor sportsmanship and frankly I'd prefer CCP do away with alts entirely so that players have to deal with the consequences of their actions, but I know realistically that's not going to happen. On the other hand, if someone spies in-game with their main, without using an alt or any kind of anonymizing out-of-game method to pass on information, by all means go for it :) I think the consequences of being caught for your character's reputation are a suitable risk vs reward balance.
Eiro
EDIT: I agree, this topic doesn't belong in this forum.
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 18:53:00 -
[43]
The best defense is a good offense.
|
Nira Li
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 20:31:00 -
[44]
Originally by: NeoTech
Since
However IMO theres no difference from macro-mining and TS Spying. Macro mining uses out of game mechanics to further their ingame progress, so do TS spying and forum spying.
You know you use TS aswell as a out of game mechanics to further your ingame progress, same with forums.
I belive that if you use out of game mechanics to make eve more easy then it's perfectly fine for anyone to interfare with them as long as you don't destroy it at anyway or breaky any RL rules.
Yes eve is a game and spying is part of it. Out of game mechanics is part of the game and so is out of game spying.
You Will Cry My Name
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Loedem
Minmatar
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 20:48:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Nira Li
Originally by: NeoTech
Since
However IMO theres no difference from macro-mining and TS Spying. Macro mining uses out of game mechanics to further their ingame progress, so do TS spying and forum spying.
You know you use TS aswell as a out of game mechanics to further your ingame progress, same with forums.
I belive that if you use out of game mechanics to make eve more easy then it's perfectly fine for anyone to interfare with them as long as you don't destroy it at anyway or breaky any RL rules.
Yes eve is a game and spying is part of it. Out of game mechanics is part of the game and so is out of game spying.
I don't think CCP developed TS and various forums like PHPNuke and VBB. I think the point you should be making is this:
When you invite a spy as a member, then that member is *given access* to additional resources. They're not breaking in, but are rather invited to see whatever you show them.
How's that sound?
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SCORPY SCRAP
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 21:41:00 -
[46]
Spies are a sign of weakness.
|
Nira Li
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 21:44:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Loedem
Originally by: Nira Li
Originally by: NeoTech
Since
However IMO theres no difference from macro-mining and TS Spying. Macro mining uses out of game mechanics to further their ingame progress, so do TS spying and forum spying.
You know you use TS aswell as a out of game mechanics to further your ingame progress, same with forums.
I belive that if you use out of game mechanics to make eve more easy then it's perfectly fine for anyone to interfare with them as long as you don't destroy it at anyway or breaky any RL rules.
Yes eve is a game and spying is part of it. Out of game mechanics is part of the game and so is out of game spying.
I don't think CCP developed TS and various forums like PHPNuke and VBB. I think the point you should be making is this:
When you invite a spy as a member, then that member is *given access* to additional resources. They're not breaking in, but are rather invited to see whatever you show them.
How's that sound?
Yea pretty much
You Will Cry My Name
|
zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 21:44:00 -
[48]
Originally by: SCORPY SCRAP
Spies are a sign of weakness.
Not as much as the emptiness of your argument :>
my thoughts are my own and do not represent the thoughts of my corp |
MarKand
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 22:17:00 -
[49]
First of all, everybody have their right to a opinion, but second, we will all have to face fact later.
So here goes fact...
EVE is not as you might want it to be, a demokratic, fluffy loving game, or gamestyle to play. It IS within its mechanics most PROFITABLE and POWERFUL when runned in dictator mode. So how does this go with spies ?
Spies can only hurt you when you let them to, no one is forcing you to reliev information, or access to members in Your corp. The CEO, the leader does so by him/her self. By doing this , you are accepting the RISK it is to come under the influence of a spy.
As a quick referal to RL, you can look at military or/and politics, all are on a need to know basis. Why ? becouse otherwise the intel will go the wrong way :)
So the fact that we dont like spies, I dont either, but they are a part of this game, it is actually one of the roles CCP "flashes" that you can play in Eve. I think spies are vital to Eve. Imagine a Eve without spies, it would be like playing any other game, solo. This is why I play the game, it is so very realistic, it has so many different layers and colors to it.
But,, as I stated in the beginning, opinions are ourŠs to have, I also HATE spies, when they cross my alliance, but I love the oneŠs we have. and thatŠs actually sums the fact up. We like the things that improve our own game time, and we dislike what goes against us. Actually very natuaral.
So , spies are to stay, spies ARE a part of the game, and a little finger pointing regarding TS and forums, the very reason you have TS and forums, is to add to your game, so it is natrualy to have spies there, even more likely to have forum spies than "active" players in corp.
Ask your self, how many "sleepers" do You have in your corp, muhahahahaaaa ( soz couldnt help me there )
Keep the game rolling and safe flying to you all. This is Eve, this is what we chose to do , and we LOVE IT !
/M
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Droewa
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 03:13:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Orc A
Originally by: Damir36
I really have no Problem with spies as they belong to the game and sometimes it is even a good laugh what they pick up (ofc sometimes you are at the recieving end of the joke ), but what I miss is a proper way to deal with them. You just can`t declare war on any Corp/Ally that hosts him in his further career, and if he goes to Empire you can`t even shoot him.
As opposit to RL there is no police Force in Eve to hunt a convicted criminal (and rightly so) but to just get away by Clonejump, Carrier... is just too easy.
What I`m getting at is that the "job" Spy in EvE is just to easy, the Consequences for being found out nonexistent. Thats why most of the Spys I have seen (ok, granted maybe the intelligent ones are not caught ) are on the lower end of the intelligence scala. There is no challenge in this for experienced Players.
But if there where serious repercussions (dunno which) as well as added incentive (like getting at the mail of your Commanders or somthing) then it woud be a proper carreer in Eve and would`nt attract only the sorry Idiots that now do the spying because the can`t do anything useful in the game.
(my two Cents, does not reflect my Corp or my Alliance)
Well, you'd be amazed but there are also stupid spies, that attempt to sell intel to the enemy using their main o.0.
Go fig, eh?
Don't forget about guys who smalk talk using thier alt then reply to a comment towrds it with thier main..
teee heeheeehee
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 03:15:00 -
[51]
Spying is fine. When it crosses the boundaries into illegal activity (hacking forums, etc)... then it needs to stop. And yes, it has crossed these lines in the past, in some cases, IIRC.
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 03:38:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 10/11/2006 03:43:57
Originally by: pershphanie
Originally by: NeoTech
Spying with ingame mechanics (like reading alliance mail and such) are 100% fair in my eyes. However spying OUT of eve is a totally different thing.
But no, it shouldn't be against the rule.
I dont follow your logic at all. If spying on TS/forums is unfair because it involves using out of game methods then why is it fair for you to use TS/forums at all?I dont see the difference.
Your arguement is -
spying on ts/forums = out of game = wrong
using ts/forums = out of game = ok?
If you consider the use of TS/forums an acceptable part of game play then you must consider spy on them an acceptable part of game play as well. Nothing else really makes sense.
Using a TS/forum isn't a criminal offence in my country.
Gaining access to a TS or forum through misrepresentation is a criminal offence here, and punishable by a term of inprisonment and/or a pretty hefty fine.
Lying and cheating out of game can have very different consequences to doing so in game. Claiming there is no dividing line is maybe not a wise course of action ... perhaps you should look harder for it.
Originally by: "UK's Computer Misuse Act 1990"
1.ù(1) A person is guilty of an offence ifù
(a) he causes a computer to perform any function with intent to secure access to any program or data held in any computer;
(b) the access he intends to secure is unauthorised; and
(c) he knows at the time when he causes the computer to perform the function that that is the case.
(2) The intent a person has to have to commit an offence under this section need not be directed atù
(a) any particular program or data;
(b) a program or data of any particular kind; or
(c) a program or data held in any particular computer.
(3) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both.
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evistin
Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.10 04:11:00 -
[53]
Edited by: evistin on 10/11/2006 04:14:38
TS spy I think are, if any, the fault of the owners of the TS server.
THey were not
1. Control who has the passwords
2. Give Officer chat a secondary password only
3. Filter who is actually getting on/off the server
4. You gives give out the password to the spy, because the spy is in your corp.
The problem is that no matter how much you love/like/hate it. It will happen, just suck it up and get something to reduce the chances of spies in your corporation.
Legally there was nothing but ones pride hurt. THe objects of the game are merely part of a game. If you want to claim the lose of 100 Battleships due to a spy, then expected RL taxes to come into play.
-----------
Management and Leadership |
pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 05:35:00 -
[54]
Edited by: pershphanie on 10/11/2006 05:37:44
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Using a TS/forum isn't a criminal offence in my country.
Neither is spying on it.
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Gaining access to a TS or forum through misrepresentation is a criminal offence here, and punishable by a term of inprisonment and/or a pretty hefty fine.
Thats not how spys gain access to forums/ts. Spys gain access to ts/forums by placing a character in the target corp/alliance. Then someone gives forum/ts access to that character. Since that really is your character you are not gaining access through misrepresentation. An Admin had to willingly gave your character access to those forums.
Oh yeah - the law says nothing about misrepresentation. It says UNAUTHERIZED.
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Lying and cheating out of game can have very different consequences to doing so in game. Claiming there is no dividing line is maybe not a wise course of action ... perhaps you should look harder for it.
Well thx for your concern but I never said any of those things.
There is a dividing line between lying ingame and cheating out of game. Spying does not cross that line. If someone hacked your forums/ts or stole someone's account with a key logger to gain access I would agree with you. However there is nothing wrong with gaining access to a forum/ts through the game.
Originally by: "UK's Computer Misuse Act 1990"
1.ù(1) A person is guilty of an offence ifù
(a) he causes a computer to perform any function with intent to secure access to any program or data held in any computer;
(b) the access he intends to secure is unauthorised; and
(c) he knows at the time when he causes the computer to perform the function that that is the case.
I was not supporting hacking someone's TS/forums. This law is completly irrelevent to spying. Access given to spys IS autherized. The admin gives access to the character willingly. There is no unautherized breaking into TS/forums in spying. Spying is 100% legit in every way.
To the rest of the people in this thread:
You dont have to like spying. You can get mad and say how lame corps are that use spys. Keep on smacking.
Just remember that the only people who can accept applications into your corp/alliance are your leaders. If you are in a corp/alliance that accepts 2 month old characters that only fly t1 frigs then you can stfu. Take some responsibilty for your own corp/alliance. Quit blaming everyone else for your problems. You are the one who chose to join a corp that accepts anyone who applys. It's your own **** fault. Quit crying.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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Orc A
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 08:30:00 -
[55]
Quote:
Forum access, TS access... Its 2 things that all alliance members should have access to. How would u fight a war if no one had TS access?.
The prevention phase comes much earlier.
It's not that you filter who you give access to, it's filtering who you let in your corp to begin with.
Also, spies are easy to filter out once already in the corp, if you know what to look for.
A corp that employs such techniques also knows how to see them when applied on self.
Originally by: End Yourself
hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
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Orc A
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 08:33:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Orc A on 10/11/2006 08:33:14
Quote:
Just remember that the only people who can accept applications into your corp/alliance are your leaders. If you are in a corp/alliance that accepts 2 month old characters that only fly t1 frigs then you can stfu. Take some responsibilty for your own corp/alliance. Quit blaming everyone else for your problems. You are the one who chose to join a corp that accepts anyone who applys. It's your own **** fault. Quit crying.
QF-MOFOKING-T.
Persh, marry me?
Originally by: End Yourself
hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
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Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 08:59:00 -
[57]
I see no difference between TS or forum spying and DDOS attack on TS server or wiping out the db of enemy internal forums.
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Orc A
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 10:00:00 -
[58]
The diffrence is simple...
DOS attack = ileagal almost anywhere in the world.
TS/Forum espionage = cunning set-up by legit tools that anyone has.
While to commence a DOS attack u need to have some knowledge that most don't, TS/Forum espionage is easy enough for anyone to engage in.
Infact, IF DOS attacks had nothing illeagal to them, I wouldn't see it as an unlegitimate technique either. call it "Out of Game EW" if you like.
Originally by: End Yourself
hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
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Elfman
AWE Corporation
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 10:19:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Elfman on 10/11/2006 10:20:53
Originally by: Orc A
The diffrence is simple...
DOS attack = ileagal almost anywhere in the world.
TS/Forum espionage = cunning set-up by legit tools that anyone has.
While to commence a DOS attack u need to have some knowledge that most don't, TS/Forum espionage is easy enough for anyone to engage in.
Infact, IF DOS attacks had nothing illeagal to them, I wouldn't see it as an unlegitimate technique either. call it "Out of Game EW" if you like.
Also not a flame - but dont you think that DOS attacks (if legal) would be pushing it a bit far - it is a game after all.
a game to be played and enjoyed. If someone has to go to the lenghts such as above to gain a advantage over another player/group then there is something wrong.
Edit - not accusing anyone of anything or saying spying etc is wrong or right just bored at work and enjoying a thread that so far hasnt been flamed to hell and back and so far been quiet enjoyable to read ;)
Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat eis.
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Orc A
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 10:27:00 -
[60]
Yes, the purpose of a game is enjoyment.
However, not everyone can enjoy, as not everyone can win.
Game + teams (alliances/corps) = Competition.
In a competative game, There are winner, and there are losers.
What one would do to achieve victory is up to him. What i said about DOS attacks and if they were legal is my personal opinion, which I'm sure not many share.
As for the TS question, the one regarding giving out fake orders - Back in the FiX vs SA war, one of the guys on our side (not from our alliance though, one of the allies) managed to claim lead over the enemy gang wand warped them into a hostile to them POS.
Brilliant manouver i think.
In the bottom line, it all revolves around exploiting every single weakness of your enemy.
TS infiltration is the exploiting of your enemies' weak security measures, etc. Simple as that - If you lose, it means you weren't good enough. It doesnt matter wether it was due to TS infiltration or whatever. All these things can be avoided by using the proper reprecausions.
Originally by: End Yourself
hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
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Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.10 10:42:00 -
[61]
The best solution to the spy problem is to introduce some kind of ALT checker, let us see what other characters someone has on their account.
This will force people to be held responsible for their actions. Spying, sabotage, scamming and the like will still be possible, but they will have to be performed on a main or an ALT that can be traced back to a main if people check.
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Elfman
AWE Corporation
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 10:47:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Fubear
The best solution to the spy problem is to introduce some kind of ALT checker, let us see what other characters someone has on their account.
This will force people to be held responsible for their actions. Spying, sabotage, scamming and the like will still be possible, but they will have to be performed on a main or an ALT that can be traced back to a main if people check.
Doesn't stop you using a second account does it :)
Lots of us have two accounts at least
Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat eis.
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Asezel
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 11:06:00 -
[63]
Probably it worries when the spies will show competable records on the killboard ?
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Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 14:52:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Elfman
Originally by: Fubear
The best solution to the spy problem is to introduce some kind of ALT checker, let us see what other characters someone has on their account.
This will force people to be held responsible for their actions. Spying, sabotage, scamming and the like will still be possible, but they will have to be performed on a main or an ALT that can be traced back to a main if people check.
Doesn't stop you using a second account does it :)
Lots of us have two accounts at least
It doesn't stop you using a second account, and that is the beauty of it.
It makes spying harder, but not impossible. If you want to use a 'clean' account to spy then go ahead, but if you get caught then your character (the 'main' for that account) will be forever branded as a spy - the account owner then has to decide if it is worth keeping the account/character and their SP or recycle them.
If you want to be an effective spy, then you need to have a clean account to do so. It makes spying much harder to
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Orc A
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 14:56:00 -
[65]
Every "pro" spy that respects himself nowdays uses a "clean" char as it is. Atleast most of them.
Originally by: End Yourself
hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
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Tinkz
Miss Information's Agency
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 15:14:00 -
[66]
save the spies,
in all their pies,
dirty little fingers,
and crafty eyes.
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Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 16:56:00 -
[67]
Originally by: pershphanie
Thats not how spys gain access to forums/ts. Spys gain access to ts/forums by placing a character in the target corp/alliance. Then someone gives forum/ts access to that character. Since that really is your character you are not gaining access through misrepresentation. An Admin had to willingly gave your character access to those forums.
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Lying and cheating out of game can have very different consequences to doing so in game. Claiming there is no dividing line is maybe not a wise course of action ... perhaps you should look harder for it.
Lets look harder then.
Director of Company A wants to know what's going on in Company B. Person C joins Company B, passes details from B's internal private voice communicatoins and internal forums to A. B had to willingly give C access. The law says its all Company B's fault for lax recruitment practices? Nope.
Stick a legal notice on your out of games comms .. warn that its confidential information .. that such information should not be passed to third parties outside the context of the forum or private voice communcations (Vent/TS). Even stick a contract up on a website to be endorsed before accepting membership of your corp.
Where has the line gone?
If you need to metagame to beat ASCN it tarnishes your pilots victory and reputation.
Myn
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Spaja Saist
Gallente
Knights of Retribution
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Posted - 2006.11.10 17:01:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Metal Dude
Edited by: Metal Dude on 08/11/2006 22:59:52
Did any of you read the Players Guide when you started playing this game?
http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g12.asp
See the part about spying? I guess it's just easier for you to complain on the forums about it instead of using it like it was meant to be. Politics, spies, wars is what makes this game great. Maybe you should first read the guide and if you don't like it, go play some other game where you can get cheat code right to the end and push the win button, but for the love of god, stop whining like a bunch of little girls because you are too lazy to read and understand the rules.
Spoken like a true BOB spy. You must of missed the part about using out of game mechanics to spy. Of course these days it seems the only way to compete is to use every pathetic out of game tactic in the book.
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Spaja Saist
Gallente
Knights of Retribution
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:04:00 -
[69]
Originally by: pershphanie
Edited by: pershphanie on 08/11/2006 23:58:37
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
You do understand the difference between in the game, and not in the game, right? Yeah, spying is fine IN THE GAME. Killing is fine IN THE GAME. Stealing is fine IN THE GAME. Some of the examples that he gave though, like doctoring a cap of a log-in screen with photoshop to prove to someone that you aren't an alt is lying OUTSIDE THE GAME. It is you (not your character), personally, lying to get an edge in a game, for crissakes.
So in your opinion its not ok for people to lie out of game but screening out of game to get excepted into a corp is ok?
If you are going to keep pulling the out of game card then you cant just use it when it's convient for you. If you were arugeing either that people should not use out of game methods all or people shouldnt lie at all then you might have a decent arguement. However it's total bs that you think you should be able to use out of game methods to achive better game play and your enemies shouldnt use those against you.
Think spying is bad if it involves use of out of game resources? Fine by me. Dont use out of game resources yourself. Stop using TS, forums, requiring out of game screenshots, etc. That will stop all your problems with it and it. Untill then STFU with all your superior moral garbage.
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
People don't like to be spied on.
Boohoo?
Originally by: Drusus Rensus
The hard cold fact is that if you would lie to get an edge in a game, you'll probably lie about just about anything. Personal integrity is just that; personal.
So in your opinion warfare shouldnt involve deception?
Super. Good luck with that.
Why do so many BOB members act like children? I remember when you would never get smack from BOB members. These days all they do is insult people on the forums.
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Joram McRory
Caldari
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:26:00 -
[70]
For me it is simple - spying, telling lies etc is bad, dirty and cheating and I would never condone it in any game.
IMO people should not forget this is a game not real life. In real life people have to resort to the above to save lives etc. In a game there is not that impreative so it should not be done.
Joram
My Photography site |
Pinpisa Jormao
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:29:00 -
[71]
Originally by: wahwah
And yes, I consider "support" (in the form of in game mechanics) to be encumbering. As it stands, espionage is dictated in terms of one's imagination and creativity. And I'm not talking about RP nonsense. I mean imagination and creativity in the same sense as non-traditional ship setups, or battlefield tactics. If "spy support" is added, it's going to become a "this is what constitutes spying; everything else is different and strange" approach to espionage. I think it's self-evident why that is the antithesis of what makes a sandbox game engaging.
You are wrong on so many levels. The answer is Advanced Spying and Advanced Scamming. As they require imagination and creativity, they are Rank 12 skills. Each level of Scamming allows to exaggerate the value of an item in escrow by 100%. Each level of Spying increases the number of evemails you can send to player with hostile standing in a month by 1 without being detected by Spy Probe.
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Ab Initio
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.10 17:44:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Joram McRory
For me it is simple - spying, telling lies etc is bad, dirty and cheating and I would never condone it in any game.
IMO people should not forget this is a game not real life. In real life people have to resort to the above to save lives etc. In a game there is not that impreative so it should not be done.
You're playing a game where one of the main goals is mass murder. But 'fibbing' in the same game is morally reprehensible?
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Zrevak Ashek
The Blackwater Brigade
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Posted - 2006.11.10 17:47:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Zrevak Ashek on 10/11/2006 17:49:54
Originally by: Joram McRory
For me it is simple - spying, telling lies etc is bad, dirty and cheating and I would never condone it in any game.
IMO people should not forget this is a game not real life. In real life people have to resort to the above to save lives etc. In a game there is not that impreative so it should not be done.
What most ppl in theis game continually fail to realise, is that some ppl look upon Eve as kinda "Master of Orion" on steroids. In that game, Espionage, counterintelligence, sabotage, diplomacy, subjugation, assimilation, tactical fleetbattles, research, manufacturing, conquest...ALL was integral to the gamemechanics. In Eve, as it has alot of human players, you get additional content; like f. ex. propaganda. Those who view Eve like a MMO ver of MOO, will use ALL of the methods mentioned above in order to win
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Joram McRory
Caldari
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 17:49:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Ab Initio
Originally by: Joram McRory
For me it is simple - spying, telling lies etc is bad, dirty and cheating and I would never condone it in any game.
IMO people should not forget this is a game not real life. In real life people have to resort to the above to save lives etc. In a game there is not that impreative so it should not be done.
You're playing a game where one of the main goals is mass murder. But 'fibbing' in the same game is morally reprehensible?
I didn't say I was making any sense did I lol
But as an attempt to rationalise my point of view. This is a game, so no one actually gets killed. But the players do actually tell lies. So yes lieing to gain access to a corp for the purpose of spying is still morally wrong.
IMO ofc
Joram
My Photography site |
SwindonBadger
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.11.10 17:57:00 -
[75]
anyone remeber spy v spy in mad magazine, I thinhk it adds to the game greatly and hearing one spy telling me about the story of another spy that he was following where they found each other out was comical. I have been on the receiving end as well as having some truely funny moments reading what the enemy really thinks of us....... or plans to do.
on a more seriouse note I spy with my little eye something beggining with G ... English bob fingers on the buzzer please.
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Ab Initio
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.10 18:31:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Ab Initio on 10/11/2006 18:32:10
Originally by: Joram McRory
I didn't say I was making any sense did I lol
But as an attempt to rationalise my point of view. This is a game, so no one actually gets killed. But the players do actually tell lies. So yes lieing to gain access to a corp for the purpose of spying is still morally wrong.
IMO ofc
Morality isn't generally considered something you can implement only where it suits your cause. If you really believe that using counter-intelligence in a game means we're morally corrupt, perhaps you should take a look at some of your own actions:
* You use spies.
* You kill people.
* You lie.
That these actions are done under the flag of diplomacy does not pardon them.
There is no way to play this game without taking part in war. Whether you are fighting yourself, or using a market that is funding someone elses war, you are part of the morally questionable machine called EVE.
Either believe in morality in games, and stop playing, or treat this as a game and have fun with the rest of us.
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Joram McRory
Caldari
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 19:50:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Joram McRory on 10/11/2006 19:51:09
Originally by: Ab Initio
Morality isn't generally considered something you can implement only where it suits your cause. If you really believe that using counter-intelligence in a game means we're morally corrupt, perhaps you should take a look at some of your own actions:
* You use spies.
* You kill people.
* You lie.
That these actions are done under the flag of diplomacy does not pardon them.
There is no way to play this game without taking part in war. Whether you are fighting yourself, or using a market that is funding someone elses war, you are part of the morally questionable machine called EVE.
Either believe in morality in games, and stop playing, or treat this as a game and have fun with the rest of us.
Woah there a minute!!
I lie?? I use spies?? I kill people??
Ok, I will conced the first - I have, on occasion, told the odd porky. But i have never done the other two. I have never knowingly been in a gang in EvE where a spy is being used. I certainly have never killed anyone!!
My point was that the "war" in the game is just playing, not real, pretend, you know, a game!! And therefore is not sufficiently serious to be something worth lieing for.
A workable counter argument to my point would be: that if it's not important why get all het up about the deciet - as it is only in the make believe world that the deciet has an effect.
And that is where point of view and opinion comes into play. Either side of the argument are valid, I'll just stay on my side thank you.
As for having fun - I personally have more fun playing within what I consider to be the spirit of the rules if not thier letter.
I am making no moral jusgment here, just explaining my opinion!
Joram
My Photography site |
Orc A
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 19:59:00 -
[78]
Quote:
My point was that the "war" in the game is just playing, not real, pretend, you know, a game!! And therefore is not sufficiently serious to be something worth lieing for.
Wait... so it's okey to kill people in a game, but lying is a no-no?
Why? besides, Eve is an mmorpg, i can always say "It's my character that lied, not me" :p
Originally by: End Yourself
hey! we are BoB's lapdogs! not Oberon's or ASCN's!!!
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Tholarim
Amarr
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 20:07:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Originally by: pershphanie
Thats not how spys gain access to forums/ts. Spys gain access to ts/forums by placing a character in the target corp/alliance. Then someone gives forum/ts access to that character. Since that really is your character you are not gaining access through misrepresentation. An Admin had to willingly gave your character access to those forums.
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Lying and cheating out of game can have very different consequences to doing so in game. Claiming there is no dividing line is maybe not a wise course of action ... perhaps you should look harder for it.
Lets look harder then.
Director of Company A wants to know what's going on in Company B. Person C joins Company B, passes details from B's internal private voice communicatoins and internal forums to A. B had to willingly give C access. The law says its all Company B's fault for lax recruitment practices? Nope.
Stick a legal notice on your out of games comms .. warn that its confidential information .. that such information should not be passed to third parties outside the context of the forum or private voice communcations (Vent/TS). Even stick a contract up on a website to be endorsed before accepting membership of your corp.
Where has the line gone?
If you need to metagame to beat ASCN it tarnishes your pilots victory and reputation.
Myn
posting without knowing facts or how things really go down is not smart either. ASCN isn't losing fights becus of spies is all i can tell you. But maybe your source is better then mine?
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Otellus
eXceed Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 21:02:00 -
[80]
So if TS spying is ok, I guess propaganda is ok too right?
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Metal Dude
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 21:22:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Spaja Saist
Originally by: Metal Dude
Edited by: Metal Dude on 08/11/2006 22:59:52
Did any of you read the Players Guide when you started playing this game?
http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g12.asp
See the part about spying? I guess it's just easier for you to complain on the forums about it instead of using it like it was meant to be. Politics, spies, wars is what makes this game great. Maybe you should first read the guide and if you don't like it, go play some other game where you can get cheat code right to the end and push the win button, but for the love of god, stop whining like a bunch of little girls because you are too lazy to read and understand the rules.
Spoken like a true BOB spy. You must of missed the part about using out of game mechanics to spy. Of course these days it seems the only way to compete is to use every pathetic out of game tactic in the book.
I pointed you to the EVE guide where it specifically warns you about spies. Please point me to the part that states itÆs against the rules to use outside means of communication or that itÆs forbidden to infiltrate those means.
On another note, whenever your HC gets Intel æfrom a reliable sourceÆ, where do you think they get it? ItÆs fine for ASCN to get Intel from spies but not BoB? Hypocrisy at itÆs best.
If you want to talk about pathetic, how about Control-Q. No problem with that æin gameÆ pathetic tactic? Yea, I thought so, little ASCN alt.
The truth will set you free
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Ab Initio
Evolution
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 21:26:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Otellus
So if TS spying is ok, I guess propaganda is ok too right?
It's fine, though it doesn't help your side much if you are no good at it.
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Otellus
eXceed Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 21:30:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Ab Initio
Originally by: Otellus
So if TS spying is ok, I guess propaganda is ok too right?
It's fine, though it doesn't help your side much if you are no good at it.
Ok, just wondering.
Cause you all get upset when we say things about you about your exploiting and living in moms basement as such. Regardless of whether its all true or not, one would be inclined to consider that propaganda, just like the lies you tell about our leaders. So I guess you won't complain about that anymore, right?
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Zagum Darkfin
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 21:41:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Otellus
Originally by: Ab Initio
Originally by: Otellus
So if TS spying is ok, I guess propaganda is ok too right?
It's fine, though it doesn't help your side much if you are no good at it.
Ok, just wondering.
Cause you all get upset when we say things about you about your exploiting and living in moms basement as such. Regardless of whether its all true or not, one would be inclined to consider that propaganda, just like the lies you tell about our leaders. So I guess you won't complain about that anymore, right?
You honestly believe what they are telling you?? We do not have to make stuff up unlike some people. Quit being in DENIAL. Either provide proof of us lying or STFU.
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Otellus
eXceed Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 21:51:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Zagum Darkfin
Originally by: Otellus
Originally by: Ab Initio
Originally by: Otellus
So if TS spying is ok, I guess propaganda is ok too right?
It's fine, though it doesn't help your side much if you are no good at it.
Ok, just wondering.
Cause you all get upset when we say things about you about your exploiting and living in moms basement as such. Regardless of whether its all true or not, one would be inclined to consider that propaganda, just like the lies you tell about our leaders. So I guess you won't complain about that anymore, right?
You honestly believe what they are telling you?? We do not have to make stuff up unlike some people. Quit being in DENIAL. Either provide proof of us lying or STFU.
LOL, you don't get it. I don't have to prove you're lying, just like you don't have to prove you're not lying. Its propaganda. Everybody can lie all they want.
Its part of war. Think US, Iraq and the MWD scam.
If I want to launch a smearcampaign against you its propaganda, just like when you lie about not exploiting nodecrashes or about the terrible things our leaders do to babies or whatever nonsense you spew.
That's the level playing field you profess to want.
You said it yourself, TS spies are ok, propaganda is ok. But that also means people can lie all they want about anyone else, because in essence, that is what propaganda most of the time comes down to. So perhaps think about it. Is that really what you want?
Regardless of whether you win or lose a war, you could have a hundred people smearing your reputation every step of the way for the coming years about exploiting, hacking etc.
Propaganda FTW!
And if you want proof about lying, I'm too lazy to do the work, but I do remember earlier posts from some BoB about our leaders in Xetic, and later a rebuttal by KSUdruid saying that it happened differently when it was brought up again in another thread.
Not sure if it was a complete contradiction to each other, but it certainly came pretty close.
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Ab Initio
Evolution
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:21:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Ab Initio on 10/11/2006 22:25:19
Originally by: Otellus
LOL, you don't get it. I don't have to prove you're lying, just like you don't have to prove you're not lying. Its propaganda. Everybody can lie all they want.
Its part of war. Think US, Iraq and the MWD scam.
If I want to launch a smearcampaign against you its propaganda, just like when you lie about not exploiting nodecrashes or about the terrible things our leaders do to babies or whatever nonsense you spew.
That's the level playing field you profess to want.
You said it yourself, TS spies are ok, propaganda is ok. But that also means people can lie all they want about anyone else, because in essence, that is what propaganda most of the time comes down to. So perhaps think about it. Is that really what you want?
Regardless of whether you win or lose a war, you could have a hundred people smearing your reputation every step of the way for the coming years about exploiting, hacking etc.
Propaganda FTW!
And if you want proof about lying, I'm too lazy to do the work, but I do remember earlier posts from some BoB about our leaders in Xetic, and later a rebuttal by KSUdruid saying that it happened differently when it was brought up again in another thread.
Not sure if it was a complete contradiction to each other, but it certainly came pretty close.
We don't point out your leaderships lies because we are personally offended, we point it out because the majority of what they say is such blatant garbage that anyone reading it can have a good laugh.
If you really believe that we are all leaving for Pirates of the Burning Seas, then you have nothing to worry about.
EDIT: I'd go one step further and say that I would LOVE to see your leadership continue with their posts. I'm currently listening to 2 hours of Cyvok rallying the troops while reading a book, and It's top stuff!
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.11 00:37:00 -
[87]
Edited by: pershphanie on 11/11/2006 00:40:33
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Lets look harder then.
Director of Company A wants to know what's going on in Company B. Person C joins Company B, passes details from B's internal private voice communicatoins and internal forums to A. B had to willingly give C access. The law says its all Company B's fault for lax recruitment practices? Nope.
Sorry to have to be the one to break this to you, but eve is a game. The corps in eve arent RL corperations. You can't be two people at once in RL. In eve you can. There's nothing illegeal about spying, give it up.
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Where has the line gone?
I have a clear place of where I draw the line on what is acceptable to do in eve. I will not do anything in the game that I couldnt do if the eve galaxy were real nor will I do anything that CPP considers exploitive (reguardless of if I agree with it). Everything else is fair game to me. If eve were real you would be able to intercept enemy communications through espionage.
I think the main reason of why people consider spying wrong is because TS/corp forums are not produced by CCP so using them to your advantage by spying is an "out of game mechanic". If you think that way keep in mind that if you are using that exact same "out of game mechanic" to gain an advantage if you use your own forums/ts.
No one has given any reasonable explination here about why it is ok for them to use these third party products to gain an in game advantage, yet not ok for enemies to use them.
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
If you need to metagame to beat ASCN it tarnishes your pilots victory and reputation.
Myn
It may indeed tarnish pilots reputations in the mind of a few people. However victory is victory. It doesnt really matter what you think about it. The results are the same.
The only way you can claim spying on TS is metagaming is if you think using TS is metagaming. Spying on TS is no more metagaming than pirating in empire or ganking a miner. TS/forums are part of the game. If you do not believe this and you use TS/forums then YOU are metagaming/exploiting by using them at all.
You can't really believe that it is ok for your oponent to gain an ingame advantage on you by using a third party program but not ok for you to neutralize that advantage, can you? BoB plays every part of the game well. If you think this weakens us or tarnishes us then you are mistaken.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.11 00:56:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Spaja Saist
You must of missed the part about using out of game mechanics to spy.
You are not argueing about if its not ok to use out of game mechanics. You arent saying whether or not the use of TS/forums is acceptable.
You are argueing about how you can use those things. Who are you to dictate to people how they can or cant use something. Just because you did not intend for your TS to be used by your enemies for an advantage doesnt make it wrong to do so. I'm sure you dont intend to have your mining barge used as target practice for a vagabond. When that happens do you make "boohoo! bob h4x!" posts? It's exactly the same thing.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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