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Covert Ops frigate bounuses are still silly.

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.09 08:13:00 - [1] What do you call an uncloaked covert ops ship (Buzzard, Cheetah and the like)? Answer ... scrap metal Anyone who has ever flown a covert ops ship knows that when they are uncloaked they are driving a ship that has so little armor that a piece of tissue paper between the pilot and space is considered to be an upgrade. So why then do these ships, whose only use is recon, have combat bonuses for their base frigate skill. The buzzard, for example, gets bonuses to ROF and damage with kinetic missiles. How many people do you think are going to fly a buzzard into combat? How many that get uncloaked would be able to kill an Atron anyway? The racial frigate bonuses for these ships really needs to be converted to something more appropriate for the ship. Ideas are a speed increase (as these ships need to make heavy use of subwarp maneuvering) or even additional speedups for using scan probes. The fact is that the current bonuses are hopeless and I cant imagine changing that is very hard for Kali. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.09 09:16:00 - [2] I can kill all t1 frigates, stealth bombers, covert ops and industrials with my helios. I can take on ceptors as well but i lack the webbing power to keep them in place. This was of course before covert cloaks went up in price, these days decloaking is just too darn risky. I do however agree, id rather see bonuses changed towards scouting. Speed, Recloaking Delay, Scan probe range, Scan probe accuray to name a few. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.11.09 09:34:00 - [3] Well Rells with my fitting skills I can get nearly a 1200 HP shield tank on my Buzzard with 2 Arbelest launchers in the highs.. Works great vs haulers or barges.. Warp to a belt and close the distance.. uncloak and blast away.. The first real combat ship will blow you to dust bunnies but a cov ops aint really a combat ship its a scout/commerce raider.. I'd cry if I lost those bonuses.. [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus"
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 10:43:00 - [4] /signed Most covert pilots I know don't even mount a weapon.
4rc4ng3L Gallente DarkSide Inc	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:13:00 - [5] /signed I use cov ops alot and it would make much more sense to have a bonus to scan probes instead of weapons. HP damage bonus is pointless on a ship that isnt designed for combat... would be much better to change it to scan probe bonus especially with Kali. Plz change it, you know you want to Death is the only true freedom, brought on by our own ignorance.... Welcome to the "free" world in which we live...
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:28:00 - [6] I'd like to see them converted into EWar bonuses. Buzzard: +20% ECM strength Anathema: +5% Tracking disruptor efficiency Helios: +5% dampener efficiency Cheetah: +7.5% Target painter efficiency They should all have the necessary slots and fitting for this, although the Buzzard would probably need an ECM capacitor use bonus. The idea is to give them a reason to decloak in combat (their current damage bonuses do not and are thus empty, wasted, bonuses). What is further needed is to allow for Covert Ops Cloaking Device II BPCs to be invented (iirc, they can't be currently) to push prices down. If this means rummaging around in the cloaking jungle, so be it. Currently we've got three cloaking devices: Prototype Cloaking Device, Improved Cloaking Device II, and Covert Ops Cloaking Device II. They form a three-part chain. How about a two-times-two-part chain instead: Prototype Cloaking Device I -> Improved Cloaking Device II * Targeting penalties * Speed penalties * Usable by any ship. Penalties negated by ships they are intended for. * Can not warp cloaked. Covert Ops Cloaking Device I -> Covert Ops Cloaking Device II * Light targeting penalties * Speed penalties on the T1 device only * Only usable by ships with a CPU bonus * Can warp cloaked This way the technology level 2 devices can be invented, and you also have a slightly less comfortable, but much cheaper, T1 covert cloaking device. As a direct effect on this it allows for more ships to have cloaking bonuses, both the Covert Ops (Cov Ops and Recon) and the Black Ops (Stealth Bombers) types can be expanded and given more kins. P.S. The only real problem is with the Black Ops, whom need more bonuses to use a worse cloak. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:36:00 - [7] Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 09/11/2006 11:40:20 Hmmm excellent proposal.. I'd not miss my Buzzards launcher bonus too much if I could have the option of a cheap T1 cov ops cloak with light/medium penalties as long as it could warp cloaked.. But still the memories of invading alliance space and killing clueless haulers and barges is a warm fuzzy one I'd miss.. But on the bright side I can fly a Pilgrim so I guess I could susbstitue that ship.. Only thing that gives me the willies on that one is the slowness of going to warp.. A skilled inty pilot could easily bust my cloak before I made it to warp.. Thats pucker factor there.. [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus"
Wiggy69 5punkorp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Ithildin Covert Ops Cloaking Device I -> Covert Ops Cloaking Device II * Light targeting penalties * Speed penalties on the T1 device only * Only usable by ships with a CPU bonus * Can warp cloaked I like this idea. However, I'd like to see a massive targeting delay penalty on the T1 version compared to the T2 version, maybe with a bigger CPU usage (15k for T1, 10k for T2 maybe?) At least this way, people can't go round with T1 cloaks lording it over people who paid 70mil or whatever for theirs before Kali, and the supply problem for T2 cloaks is solved (T1 COCD required for manufacture of T2 cloak as opposed to Improved T2 = lower prices on COCD II). ----- Wiggy's Bad Spelling and Grammar Complaints Department
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:53:00 - [9] whaat, you can fit weapons on cov op ships?
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.11.09 12:00:00 - [10] Yup.. Quite effectively too especially if there are a few of you ganking just a single target.. I've always flown mine solo but with a passive tanked setup 3 or 4 Buzzards could make a T1 cruiser go WTF! Especially after the HP boost.. [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus"

Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.09 12:06:00 - [11] Originally by: Ithildin What is further needed is to allow for Covert Ops Cloaking Device II BPCs to be invented (iirc, they can't be currently) to push prices down. If this means rummaging around in the cloaking jungle, so be it. They added a cloaking device I/Its BPO to the game files so i assume Cov ops cloak will be inventable. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.11 10:18:00 - [12] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain I can kill all t1 frigates, stealth bombers, covert ops and industrials with my helios. I can take on ceptors as well but i lack the webbing power to keep them in place. Some people are strange. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.11.11 11:33:00 - [13] yes sir it seems T2 covert ops will be inventible leading to a reduced cost for these items
Helene Troi Gallente HellSisters Corps	Posted - 2006.11.11 12:03:00 - [14] I'd like to see the fitting issue adressed to stealths, they need a lot more grid or a better bonus to fit a decent set up with at least 2 cruise launchers... Thrasher for level Three Missions! Rogue drone harrassment. Portal to War 1 and 5. The Missing Convoy.
Sir Drake	Posted - 2006.11.11 12:41:00 - [15] Yeah, lets get rid of the dmg and drone bonus of the Helios and give it something actually usefull. I would love to have a WCS bonus (like tier1 transports) and a bonus to probes instead. Im impressed that ppl use it for combat, i know i wouldnt! Not with 50+ mil cloak fitted, no tnx. As for the stealth bomber pls either give them the ability to fit a real cov ops cloak (with stealth warp!) or get rid of that cloak speed bonus and give it a sig radius bonus (like on ceptors) in combination with an extremly low sig radius to start with. That way we could at least warp in/fire 1-2 salvos/warp out befor anyone can lock us.
LC Sulla BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.11 13:23:00 - [16] /Signed. With the +50% hp bonus to all ships Cov Ops ships are going to be even less effective combat wise. I never use the thing for combat. Not EVER. So some bonuses related more specifically to their function would be better. As for stealth bombers... let's not even go there . Leave that for a whole other thread.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.11 13:26:00 - [17] Joshua, that's good, but I still think the cloaking devices need to separate into the common and the covert types to provide a low cost, low efficiency, alternative for the current multitude of covert ops cloaking device dependant ships. Originally by: Wiggy69 Originally by: Ithildin Covert Ops Cloaking Device I -> Covert Ops Cloaking Device II * Light targeting penalties * Speed penalties on the T1 device only * Only usable by ships with a CPU bonus * Can warp cloaked I like this idea. However, I'd like to see a massive targeting delay penalty on the T1 version compared to the T2 version, maybe with a bigger CPU usage (15k for T1, 10k for T2 maybe?) At least this way, people can't go round with T1 cloaks lording it over people who paid 70mil or whatever for theirs before Kali, and the supply problem for T2 cloaks is solved (T1 COCD required for manufacture of T2 cloak as opposed to Improved T2 = lower prices on COCD II). Naturally. The core of the idea is for ships where cloaked warping is necessary to be available for an affordable price, with possibility for upgrade. The penalties on the T1 cloak need not be astronomical, the T1 cloak can even have semi-T2 production requirements etc.. In it's essence, covert ops ships should be mainly frigate ships. Faster, more recon oriented, ships. The black ops (non-cloaked warping) should ideally be lurker ships - ships with immense pounce, but poor protection - essentially the descriptor for certain cruisers. My own utopian view is thus Covert Ops * Covert Ops frigates * Recon (electronic warfare) ships * Uses Covert Ops cloaks, low penalties, cloaked warping, etc. Black Ops * Stealth Bombers (converted to cruiser-hunters, designed for HAMs) * New cruiser class that are battleship hunters, designed for torpedoes * New battleship class (read below) * Significantly reduced targeting and speed penalties while cloaked. What I'd also like to see are: * Hypereuclidean Navigation skill (increased speed while cloaked) * Decloak pulse module (only works on cloaking devices, not jump-in cloaks. Long racalibration) Mirage Battleship. Hulls: Armageddon, Hyperion, Maelstrom, Raven. Designers: Khanid (blue/black), Duvolle (green/black), Thukker Mix (yellow/gold), Ishukone (green/camo). Common skill bonus on all Mirage: 20% hypereuclidean velocity and targeting delay penalty reduction Amarrian "Atum" (Atum is the Egyptian god of the setting sun) Layout: Armageddon. +1 mid slot. Battleship: 10% energy weapon capacitor use, 5% energy weapon rate of fire. Caldari "Harrier" (it's a gods **ed bird...) Layout: Raven. +1 low slot, +1 launcher. Battleship: 10% cruiser missile and torpedo velocity and 5% rate of fire. Gallentean "Apate" (Apate is the personification of deceit) Layout: Megathron. +1 mid slot. Battleship: 5% hybrid turret damage and 7.5% tracking. Minmatarian "Loki"** (Loki is the asgardian trickster) Layout: Tempest. +1 low slot, +1 turret. Battleship: 5% projectile turret damage and rate of fire. While this suggestion isn't perfect, it is, I feel, much better form of upgraded T2 battleship than a HAC-like battleship. Maybe one or two of them's got a missing bonus on Mirage skill, since a cloaked vessel favours the close range ship (i.e. Megathron-esque) heavily. - EVE is sick.


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