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Lori Dyth
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
I still dont get why this has not been fixed already?
If Mr A and Mr B are fighting at a gate/undock and Mr A is winning, If i come along and RR Mr B in my logi then i'm choosing sides.
Ergo, if im choosing to be Mr B's friend, it makes sense that i am now Mr A's enemy, yet i can insta dock/jump at the first sign of danger and be pretty much godly.
Same goes for neutral SB'ing Blackbirds camping on undock ( im looking at you Orphanage ), if **** gets real, off they fly wit not a care in the world.
Come on CCP, this fix is well overdue now, transfer agression timers to all RR/SB neuts please?....... |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
531
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Wanst this fix'ed
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Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
215
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
I thought they had made the RR-aggression update with the release of Crucible.
I quote from the Crucible patch notes :
"*You will now be warned before assisting someone at war when in high security space."
"*If someone youGÇÖre assisting in high security space gets an unexpected aggression flag, your assistance module will deactivate and require manual reactivation to avoid unintentional flagging towards the assister."
Is that not what the RR aggressor does now, Lori Dyth ?
The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
140
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 16:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
So I'm pretty sure you can't repair people from the inside of a station or the wrong side of a gate so I'm failing to see the issue.
Also if logistics jumps through a gate just go after it and kill it, it really isn't brain surgery. |
Roime
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
53
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:So I'm pretty sure you can't repair people from the inside of a station or the wrong side of a gate so I'm failing to see the issue.
Also if logistics jumps through a gate just go after it and kill it, it really isn't brain surgery.
Or maybe you've already had a brain surgery.
You can't go after it as you have an aggression timer, and can't jump. For some reason the same timer is missing from the RR ******.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
140
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump? |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp
BricK sQuAD.
146
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:I thought they had made the RR-aggression update with the release of Crucible. I quote from the Crucible patch notes : "*You will now be warned before assisting someone at war when in high security space." "*If someone youGÇÖre assisting in high security space gets an unexpected aggression flag, your assistance module will deactivate and require manual reactivation to avoid unintentional flagging towards the assister." Is that not what the RR aggressor does now, Lori Dyth ?
]
its funny cos now even if your in the same corp that is at war you get the your repping a war target warning. so most likely needs a little change to not flag a corp mate that is already flaged, just seams kinda dumb tbh
CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Lori Dyth
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:I thought they had made the RR-aggression update with the release of Crucible. I quote from the Crucible patch notes : "*You will now be warned before assisting someone at war when in high security space." "*If someone youGÇÖre assisting in high security space gets an unexpected aggression flag, your assistance module will deactivate and require manual reactivation to avoid unintentional flagging towards the assister." Is that not what the RR aggressor does now, Lori Dyth ?
Yes they inherit the agression, but not the timer.
So i could neut RR a friend ( accept agression ) but still be able to dock/jump as i have no timer, but those who are now my enemy have, so cant follow me :) |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp
BricK sQuAD.
146
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lori Dyth wrote:Thorn Galen wrote:I thought they had made the RR-aggression update with the release of Crucible. I quote from the Crucible patch notes : "*You will now be warned before assisting someone at war when in high security space." "*If someone youGÇÖre assisting in high security space gets an unexpected aggression flag, your assistance module will deactivate and require manual reactivation to avoid unintentional flagging towards the assister." Is that not what the RR aggressor does now, Lori Dyth ? Yes they inherit the agression, but not the timer. So i could neut RR a friend ( accept agression ) but still be able to dock/jump as i have no timer, but those who are now my enemy have, so cant follow me :)
as much as nuetral rr'ing is ******, there shouldnt be a timer for rr'ing anyone. you are not aggressing and shouldnt be aggressed
CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Roime
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
53
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?
How does that fix the broken mechanic, and not make neutral RR even more powerful? What if there is no fleet, or the "fleet" is two ships?
The idea of inheriting the aggression flag was to fix neutral RR, but without the timer, the flag goes only half way in fixing the issue.
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
383
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lori Dyth wrote:I still dont get why this has not been fixed already?
If Mr A and Mr B are fighting at a gate/undock and Mr A is winning, If i come along and RR Mr B in my logi then i'm choosing sides.
When you make a choice you must accept the consequences. Either you get in to Mr Whatever corp and rep it or you get in to Mr Whoever corp and rep it.
Neutral reps/assistance by any form should not make you invulnerable but a choice with consequences. It's done, now you have to pick a choice and assume what's after.
Edit: Unless it bugs the patch was about to fix this. |
Lori Dyth
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 16:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Lori Dyth wrote:Thorn Galen wrote:I thought they had made the RR-aggression update with the release of Crucible. I quote from the Crucible patch notes : "*You will now be warned before assisting someone at war when in high security space." "*If someone youGÇÖre assisting in high security space gets an unexpected aggression flag, your assistance module will deactivate and require manual reactivation to avoid unintentional flagging towards the assister." Is that not what the RR aggressor does now, Lori Dyth ? Yes they inherit the agression, but not the timer. So i could neut RR a friend ( accept agression ) but still be able to dock/jump as i have no timer, but those who are now my enemy have, so cant follow me :) as much as nuetral rr'ing is ******, there shouldnt be a timer for rr'ing anyone. you are not aggressing and shouldnt be aggressed
You ARE agressing by association, so should take the full consequences of your action when choosing to do so.
As it is, neut RR's and SB's can jump/dock at will when the guns get pointed in their direction from accepting the agression.
They DO need a timer. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
466
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Lori Dyth wrote:Thorn Galen wrote:I thought they had made the RR-aggression update with the release of Crucible. I quote from the Crucible patch notes : "*You will now be warned before assisting someone at war when in high security space." "*If someone youGÇÖre assisting in high security space gets an unexpected aggression flag, your assistance module will deactivate and require manual reactivation to avoid unintentional flagging towards the assister." Is that not what the RR aggressor does now, Lori Dyth ? Yes they inherit the agression, but not the timer. So i could neut RR a friend ( accept agression ) but still be able to dock/jump as i have no timer, but those who are now my enemy have, so cant follow me :) as much as nuetral rr'ing is ******, there shouldnt be a timer for rr'ing anyone. you are not aggressing and shouldnt be aggressed
I agree, it's not a simple issue and applying the aggression timer could cause issues in other area's of game play.
However I do feel that a case can be made for saying that the RR ship is actively helping another ship in an act of aggression and therefore shares the same timer voluntarily. Since the module auto shuts off now if aggression happens DURING the repping, it is unlikely they would be caught unaware.
Tricky call.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
baltec1
224
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 16:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?
The whole point of having neut RR is to not have them show up as assets untill needed. Given that Empire is a rather busy place its rather hard to pick them out of a crowd. |
Xtover
Macabre Votum
Against ALL Authorities
20
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?
I think the matter is more with docking games than jumping.
That being said, a dictor bubble is now agression even though it does no DPS- it's strictly a fleet-enhancing mechanic for your side, as is RR.
I know.. this takes away the way you play your empire wars but hey, sucks for you. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
140
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 16:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump? The whole point of having neut RR is to not have them show up as assets untill needed. Given that Empire is a rather busy place its rather hard to pick them out of a crowd.
This thread is not about neutral logistics. You are projecting. |
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
215
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Lori Dyth wrote:
Yes they inherit the agression, but not the timer.
So i could neut RR a friend ( accept agression ) but still be able to dock/jump as i have no timer, but those who are now my enemy have, so cant follow me :)
....
....
...
You ARE agressing by association, so should take the full consequences of your action when choosing to do so.
As it is, neut RR's and SB's can jump/dock at will when the guns get pointed in their direction from accepting the agression.
They DO need a timer.
Well if that is the situation now then yes, there's definitely an oversight on this by CCP.
100% Correct, you would be aggressing by association and should be inheriting the aggression as well as the timers.
The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp
BricK sQuAD.
146
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 16:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:Lori Dyth wrote:Thorn Galen wrote:I thought they had made the RR-aggression update with the release of Crucible. I quote from the Crucible patch notes : "*You will now be warned before assisting someone at war when in high security space." "*If someone youGÇÖre assisting in high security space gets an unexpected aggression flag, your assistance module will deactivate and require manual reactivation to avoid unintentional flagging towards the assister." Is that not what the RR aggressor does now, Lori Dyth ? Yes they inherit the agression, but not the timer. So i could neut RR a friend ( accept agression ) but still be able to dock/jump as i have no timer, but those who are now my enemy have, so cant follow me :) as much as nuetral rr'ing is ******, there shouldnt be a timer for rr'ing anyone. you are not aggressing and shouldnt be aggressed I agree, it's not a simple issue and applying the aggression timer could cause issues in other area's of game play. However I do feel that a case can be made for saying that the RR ship is actively helping another ship in an act of aggression and therefore shares the same timer voluntarily. Since the module auto shuts off now if aggression happens DURING the repping, it is unlikely they would be caught unaware. Tricky call.
it is tricky, especially with the rep a corp mate and gain a flag while in high sec 'bug/feature', until that is fixed and seeing as you are a flagged WT anyhow and should be only subject to normal rr mechanics.
tbh the simplest answer is go to low/zero sec and pvp there, if its on your overview its pew time. the whole empire war thing is a pile of crap currently and the war dec system is broken and in need of a major overhaul.
CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
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baltec1
224
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump? The whole point of having neut RR is to not have them show up as assets untill needed. Given that Empire is a rather busy place its rather hard to pick them out of a crowd. This thread is not about neutral logistics. You are projecting.
What thread are you reading?
Oh wait I get it, you dont want your little logi ship stuck outside the station. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
140
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 17:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
Xtover wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump? I think the matter is more with docking games than jumping. That being said, a dictor bubble is now agression even though it does no DPS- it's strictly a fleet-enhancing mechanic for your side, as is RR. I know.. this takes away the way you play your empire wars but hey, sucks for you.
I don't think people understand exactly what the effect this kind of change would have on station games would be.
If someone providing logistics support inherets the timer from the aggressed ship they are assisting logistics ships will still be able to remote repair a de-aggressing ship until it can dock and then remotely repair eachother until they can dock because no act of aggression has been performed by either logistics ship or the ship they were assisting.
It's not a particularly significant change to how logistics works unless you only have a singular logistics ship on the field and are losing the fight anyway. Or if you're an Orphan and are perpetually covered in remote sensor boosting blackbirds. |
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Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
173
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
My proposal, here, seems relevant... |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
137
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 17:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
That's the exact suggestion I was talking about actually. I'd make practically no difference to how folks with multiple logistics ships use RR in highsec. The people it would affect are the people who will steal a cargo container then sit on an undock with a neutral oneiros or scimitar on standby to rep them when half a dozen bees undock on to shoot them which would actually be awesome because I hate those people and encounter them all the time.
It's fine by me, it just won't solve the "problem" with logistics in empire and people will still whine about being spanked by a fleet that brought 5 guardians with them.
The entire argument boils down to "They had logistics and we didn't" or "Some idiot managed to dock because he had someone rep him then he talked smack in local and I am butthurt" and that solution resolves neither. |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
93
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?
normal warfare.. sure
carebear vs. mercenaries... comon .. they dont have resources nor experience nor competent commander to maintain such strategy. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
137
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 17:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them. |
Demarcus
Killjoy.
4
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?
If it is a neutral doing the RR you have no way of identifying it as an enemy asset until it is too late. |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 17:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them.
game mechanics.. hmm
ok .. so lets start
group A fighting group B
both got aggresion timer and consequently they cant dock/jump whatever
group C come along start repping group A
the got aggression timer but no consequences / except you can shot at them which is quite pointless...
So i really wont call it game mechanics more like bug...
Anyway not that i care...
If its not an alt army.. but a real people behind those RR ships... It required effort, willingness and time..
Other group have to get some friends too or pay mercenaries |
Cipher Jones
126
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Lori Dyth wrote:Thorn Galen wrote:I thought they had made the RR-aggression update with the release of Crucible. I quote from the Crucible patch notes : "*You will now be warned before assisting someone at war when in high security space." "*If someone youGÇÖre assisting in high security space gets an unexpected aggression flag, your assistance module will deactivate and require manual reactivation to avoid unintentional flagging towards the assister." Is that not what the RR aggressor does now, Lori Dyth ? Yes they inherit the agression, but not the timer. So i could neut RR a friend ( accept agression ) but still be able to dock/jump as i have no timer, but those who are now my enemy have, so cant follow me :) as much as nuetral rr'ing is ******, there shouldnt be a timer for rr'ing anyone. you are not aggressing and shouldnt be aggressed
You are entering combat and should be treated as such.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Cipher Jones
126
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them.
So stop being an RR carebear and suggest something useful.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
137
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
Demarcus wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump? If it is a neutral doing the RR you have no way of identifying it as an enemy asset until it is too late.
The fact that it's a logistics ship that is fleet warping with your war targets might be a giveaway.
I mean really, even if you have to use an in corp character with a covops ship it isn't difficult to find and look at people you're at war with. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
137
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 17:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them. game mechanics.. hmm ok .. so lets start group A fighting group B both got aggresion timer and consequently they cant dock/jump whatever group C come along start repping group A the got aggression timer but no consequences / except you can shot at them which is quite pointless... So i really wont call it game mechanics more like bug... Anyway not that i care... If its not an alt army.. but a real people behind those RR ships... It required effort, willingness and time.. Other group have to get some friends too or pay mercenaries
I'd just like to point out that shooting at RR ships isn't pointless even if you can't kill them, forcing them to dock or jump completely removes their ability to impact the outcome of a fight. Shooting them is only pointless if you think that them being present and RRing people you are shooting at has no effect on the fight.
Sometimes that is actually the case, it is possible to have so much DPS present that the other side having RR is irrelevant and you can kill the other guy anyway. |
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