So I'm pretty sure you can't repair people from the inside of a station or the wrong side of a gate so I'm failing to see the issue.

Also if logistics jumps through a gate just go after it and kill it, it really isn't brain surgery.

I thought they had made the RR-aggression update with the release of Crucible.

I quote from the Crucible patch notes :

"*You will now be warned before assisting someone at war when in high security space."
"*If someone youGÇÖre assisting in high security space gets an unexpected aggression flag, your assistance module will deactivate and require manual reactivation to avoid unintentional flagging towards the assister."

Is that not what the RR aggressor does now, Lori Dyth ?

I thought they had made the RR-aggression update with the release of Crucible.

I quote from the Crucible patch notes :

"*You will now be warned before assisting someone at war when in high security space."
"*If someone youGÇÖre assisting in high security space gets an unexpected aggression flag, your assistance module will deactivate and require manual reactivation to avoid unintentional flagging towards the assister."

Is that not what the RR aggressor does now, Lori Dyth ?

Yes they inherit the agression, but not the timer.

So i could neut RR a friend ( accept agression ) but still be able to dock/jump as i have no timer, but those who are now my enemy have, so cant follow me :)

Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?

I still dont get why this has not been fixed already?

If Mr A and Mr B are fighting at a gate/undock and Mr A is winning, If i come along and RR Mr B in my logi then i'm choosing sides.

as much as nuetral rr'ing is ******, there shouldnt be a timer for rr'ing anyone. you are not aggressing and shouldnt be aggressed

as much as nuetral rr'ing is ******, there shouldnt be a timer for rr'ing anyone. you are not aggressing and shouldnt be aggressed

Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?

Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?

The whole point of having neut RR is to not have them show up as assets untill needed. Given that Empire is a rather busy place its rather hard to pick them out of a crowd.

Yes they inherit the agression, but not the timer.

So i could neut RR a friend ( accept agression ) but still be able to dock/jump as i have no timer, but those who are now my enemy have, so cant follow me :)

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You ARE agressing by association, so should take the full consequences of your action when choosing to do so.

As it is, neut RR's and SB's can jump/dock at will when the guns get pointed in their direction from accepting the agression.

They DO need a timer.

I agree, it's not a simple issue and applying the aggression timer could cause issues in other area's of game play.

However I do feel that a case can be made for saying that the RR ship is actively helping another ship in an act of aggression and therefore shares the same timer voluntarily. Since the module auto shuts off now if aggression happens DURING the repping, it is unlikely they would be caught unaware.

Tricky call.

This thread is not about neutral logistics. You are projecting.

I think the matter is more with docking games than jumping.

That being said, a dictor bubble is now agression even though it does no DPS- it's strictly a fleet-enhancing mechanic for your side, as is RR.

I know.. this takes away the way you play your empire wars but hey, sucks for you.

Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?

Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?

The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them.

as much as nuetral rr'ing is ******, there shouldnt be a timer for rr'ing anyone. you are not aggressing and shouldnt be aggressed

The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them.

If it is a neutral doing the RR you have no way of identifying it as an enemy asset until it is too late.

game mechanics.. hmm

ok .. so lets start

group A fighting group B
both got aggresion timer and consequently they cant dock/jump whatever
group C come along start repping group A
the got aggression timer but no consequences / except you can shot at them which is quite pointless...

So i really wont call it game mechanics more like bug...

Anyway not that i care...
If its not an alt army.. but a real people behind those RR ships... It required effort, willingness and time..
Other group have to get some friends too or pay mercenaries

The fact that it's a logistics ship that is fleet warping with your war targets might be a giveaway.

I mean really, even if you have to use an in corp character with a covops ship it isn't difficult to find and look at people you're at war with.

I actually don't have an RR alt.

Everyone I know laughs at me because of it.

I'd just like to point out that shooting at RR ships isn't pointless even if you can't kill them, forcing them to dock or jump completely removes their ability to impact the outcome of a fight. Shooting them is only pointless if you think that them being present and RRing people you are shooting at has no effect on the fight.

Sometimes that is actually the case, it is possible to have so much DPS present that the other side having RR is irrelevant and you can kill the other guy anyway.

I'd just like to point out that shooting at RR ships isn't pointless even if you can't kill them, forcing them to dock or jump completely removes their ability to impact the outcome of a fight. Shooting them is only pointless if you think that them being present and RRing people you are shooting at has no effect on the fight.

Sometimes that is actually the case, it is possible to have so much DPS present that the other side having RR is irrelevant and you can kill the other guy anyway.

But you see shooting them IS pointless, and you cannot stop them from affecting the combat for more than a few seconds.

If you shoot them and they jump through a gate, or dock, they only need be gone long enough to get back though the gate or get undocked again. They immediately pick up right where they left off.

No risk, no way to do more than make them pause for a few seconds.

Somehow, I don't think that is the role that CCP really intended for these ships to play in Empire warfare.

I'm going to make a guess and say that you don't actually have any experience with logistics in empire at all. Because literally all you have to do to destroy a logistics ship that has jumped through a gate is have a T1 frigate sitting on the other side. And if you had the DPS to force a logistics ship to dock in the first instance you'll be able to force it to dock again before it can do anything.

The gentleman with the poor english skills seems to know quite alot more about empire logistics than you, it's much more likely that the logistics pilot will undock in a machariel or vindicator and start raping faces than to undock in a logistics ship and start repping again.

Also typically in any given war in empire only one side will be fielding logistics or one side will have vastly superior logistics to the other and they won't have to dock or jump their logistics to begin with so the whole issue of logistics and docking timers is not even an issue. The exception being when highsec merc corps are fighting eachother and both sides are just groups of armor battleships and guardians that can barely kill eachother.

You don't want boosting to be considered an act of aggression, that might not cause problems in nullsec but the problems it would cause in highsec are immense. Just being in fleet with someone would allow you to make the Fleet, Wing and squad commands as well as the fleet booster turn red just by taking a cargo container or shooting at someone, I could go and canflip a mining op and when someone comes to shoot at me the fleet boosting orca would turn red. Or in an incursion fleet I could take a cargo container and the logistics would not only cease to rep me, but also cease to rep the entire command chain.

That kind of thing would be great for griefing, but I don't think that's what you were after.

As someone who lives in highsec, is constantly at war and having been on both sides of the war equation I think your last point is completely wrong and backwards. In highsec you have no space, territory or POS towers that you need to defend so you only fight people you are at war with when you want to fight them or they catch you with your pants down doing something stupid. Making people who are already extremely risk averse more vulnerable to loss won't make them fight more, it will make them less willing to dedicate assets to a fight. People who declare wars will just mitigate the risk by bringing even more logistics and the defenders who are usually poor in isk and inexperience will be even more reluctant to field their own approximate assets.

EDIT: Actually we need to do the booster thing I support it 100% there is a particular person I can use this to kill over and over

Fight in a belt or at a planet. Nowhere to dock/jump.

Same goes for neutral SB'ing Blackbirds camping on undock ( im looking at you Orphanage ), if **** gets real, off they fly wit not a care in the world.

The only change being discussed it whether an aggression timer should apply.

Also fights don't happen at planets because fleets don't sit at planets because there is no reason to be at a planet. If people sat their fleets at planets people would drop their fleets on them. Fighting happens at gates and stations because people travel from stations to gates to other stations and you can only fight people at the places that they are at.

Also fights don't happen at planets because fleets don't sit at planets because there is no reason to be at a planet. If people sat their fleets at planets other people would drop their fleets on them. Fighting happens at gates and stations because people travel from stations to gates to other gates or stations and is only possible to fight people at the places that they are at.

What about them?

You must live in a strange part of highsec where the POS towers aren't set up with literally dozens of ECM and neut batteries.

I still dont get why this has not been fixed already?

If Mr A and Mr B are fighting at a gate/undock and Mr A is winning, If i come along and RR Mr B in my logi then i'm choosing sides.

Ergo, if im choosing to be Mr B's friend, it makes sense that i am now Mr A's enemy, yet i can insta dock/jump at the first sign of danger and be pretty much godly.

Same goes for neutral SB'ing Blackbirds camping on undock ( im looking at you Orphanage ), if **** gets real, off they fly wit not a care in the world.

Come on CCP, this fix is well overdue now, transfer agression timers to all RR/SB neuts please?.......

Who is talking High Sec POS's. The thread is about RR Mechanics.

I am talking about highsec because that is the type of space that is relevant to me and talking about mechanics changes without thinking about how they will affect different parts of space is cretinous.

If providing fleet bonuses should count as remote assistance a fleet member stealing a cargo container or shooting someone will give the fleet booster (and probably all associated wing and squad commanders) an aggression countdown. I just want you to know what that means for people in highsec.

Absolutely.

In fact, that's an excellent suggestion. If a fleet booster has his command link modules activated (thereby assisting his fleet during a situation where aggression is involved) I would have no problem with him getting an aggression timer. They would need to shut them down for the timer to start cycling down if his fleet members were still engaged.

The same would go for other forms of remote assistance such as remote sensor boosting, remote ECCM, remote tracking, remote repping, etc. If the module is activated and the recipient of it is involved in an act of aggression, you are culpable as well. If this happens "during" the period you are remotely assisting the modules deactivate and you get a pop up as you do now (although you need to be able to disable this precaution if you wish).

Also you really should be careful about distinguishing between an aggression timer and a GCC in your arguments.

At no point am I talking about GCC. I am mostly alking about the aggression countdowns that allow people in highsec who aren't at war with eachother to shoot eachother, the same type of countdown that makes it possible to shoot at people who steal from containers or remotely assist war targets.

I think that optimally anyone passively providing fleet bonuses through leadership skills should get one of these aggression countdowns and anyone actively providing bonuses via gang links should get one of these in addition to the docking/jumping timer like you said. The regular aggression timer for passive boosts might not affect nullsec or wormholes, but in highsec it allows you to at least force the person providing leadership bonuses off the field in the event that they are neutral and in lowsec it allows you to attack them without going GCC and being shot at by gate guns for 15 minutes.

Also fights don't happen at planets because fleets don't sit at planets because there is no reason to be at a planet. If people sat their fleets at planets other people would drop their fleets on them. Fighting happens at gates and stations because people travel from stations to gates to other gates or stations and is only possible to fight people at the places that they are at.

as much as nuetral rr'ing is ******, there shouldnt be a timer for rr'ing anyone. you are not aggressing and shouldnt be aggressed

If somebody reps or assists (with tracking modules or cap for instance) another aggressed party, they should inherit the aggression. This should be obvious.

Well, they DO become shootable, but the act of activating their assisting modules is not considered an aggressive act as far as the 60 second timer to dock/jump is concerned. This allows them to keep assisting right up until the last moment with no concern about needing to de-agress before docking/jumping like all the other participants in the battle do.

That is the issue.