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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:48:00 -
[31]
Still no one has answered the question of what they are meant to achieve for the price.
We don't have a "submarine" in Eve, so that's a non issue.
I'll ask again...(if u can all try not to say it's big and it should be easy to shoot pls)
WOW....I'm not sure Darwin was right....
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Slinky Redfoot
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:54:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Slinky Redfoot on 10/11/2003 00:58:40
 Quote:
Ever seen a frigate kill someone from 50km?
One class of ships is not supposed to replace another.Speed *should* make a difference and battleships shouldn't be able to outfly frigates/cruisers.Why do you think titans have half the cap of a battleship?Because they aren't supposed to wade into combat.
We'd have war fleets consisting mainly of cruisers, with frigates as fast support/electronic warfare, battleships as long range artillery and titans as dropships/carriers.
Lets have some tactical warfare, instaid of 'my guns are bigger then yours' all the time.
Quoting myself here, because Warzone must have accidently skipped my post. . bless his cotton socks.
I'll ask you again, for the last time: why do you think titans have half the capacitor and armor/shields compared to Battleships?By your logic (Titan>Battleship>Cruiser>Frigate) shouldn't titans be ontop of the food chain? 
Got Banana? |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:58:00 -
[33]
Don't answer a question with question.
For the 90+ milion...What do you think the Battleship should provide to a friendly force / take away from an enemy force?
Don't try and say if / but / and / when.
What should it give for the investment!!!???
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Slinky Redfoot
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:00:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Slinky Redfoot on 10/11/2003 01:05:00
I give up.
Got Banana? |
EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:01:00 -
[35]
Well Warzone I'll try... Power projection...
Yes, you are escorted by "support" vessels to deal with "fleets" of other smaller craft but a BS in this sense is supposed to be the focal point of holding ground (read gate, warp-in whatever).
A BS can (in theory) take out any single other craft. But to deal with large groups you are going to need "point defense".
Your 90mil investment is supposed to be one in say 10 craft. The real problem, as I see it, BS's are too common so ppl now think they are the ONLY craft they should be driving...
Also taking direct commparisons by cost is no indicator of worth. A miner I, for example, costs 35k and a miner II, (only 50% better) costs much more (500k the last time I checked)
Just because it cost 90mil does not mean it should be 180 times better than a frigate.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:05:00 -
[36]
Quote:
What should it give for the investment!!!???
I think I answered this already. It gives you the ability to do more with a smaller workforce.
Your workforce is ALWAYS limited, be it a 5 person babycorp or a 300 people megacorp, you only have a limited amount of people.
If you put 5 (or 300) people in BS they will be much more effective than in frigs.
free speech not allowed here |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:10:00 -
[37]
Could someone please not try to blame the Battleship...don't blame CCP.
Someone try to answer the question of what it is supposed to do for the money.
*pinch me lord...and then post an answer to the question..no one seems to want to*
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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:12:00 -
[38]
Okay Ana...we're on a roll.
Five people in Battelships. What can that half a billion ISK do?
What do you think it should be able to do?
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EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:17:00 -
[39]
Quote:
Could someone please not try to blame the Battleship...don't blame CCP.
Someone try to answer the question of what it is supposed to do for the money.
*pinch me lord...and then post an answer to the question..no one seems to want to*
Gosh now I get to quote myself w00t!!
Quote:
Also taking direct commparisons by cost is no indicator of worth. A miner I, for example, costs 35k and a miner II, (only 50% better) costs much more (500k the last time I checked)
Just because it cost 90mil does not mean it should be 180 times better than a frigate.
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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:23:00 -
[40]
Please answer the question...and do not feed the Trolls
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:26:00 -
[41]
- They can make more money than in cruisers or frigs. If they mine ore hunt NPCs, of cource, everywhere where you just need to move (agent missions, for example) a frig can be as effective.
- They can kill stronger players. Be in 5 frigs, encounter 3 BS - run & hope at least one will make it. Be in 5 BS, encounter 3 enemy BS - kill them (if you have a similar skilllevel and outfit quality/strategy, that is)
free speech not allowed here |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:27:00 -
[42]
He's right, that miner1/2 example is pretty much the same what I am saying.
free speech not allowed here |
EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:27:00 -
[43]
The question is invalid... please READ my sodding post. If you say.... "Answer my question" again YOU are tolling not us.
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Darketh Nightspawn
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:29:00 -
[44]
Frigates should eb fast... hard to target....
You fit your BS up with big gun sand nothign else you deserve everything those speed boats give to you.
Simple fact is, at the moment there is only one Ship in the game... Battleship.
CCP should be coming up with inventive ways to make the other ships useful (other than the BB which is useful enough as it is).
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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:42:00 -
[45]
Eric / Ana
It's a question of scale... A Miner I may cost 50K and a Miner II may cost 500K. My god..ten times as much...and it doesn't give ten times the effect.
Okay...soooo lets get impartial...Eve Dude Plus, rates the Gallante Frigate Tristan, at 550,000. Which is silly..we all know it. It rates the Megathron at 210,000,000...which again is silly.
Its over 380 times as much...(at like I said a much greater scale)
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EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:49:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Eric / Ana
It's a question of scale... A Miner I may cost 50K and a Miner II may cost 500K. My god..ten times as much...and it doesn't give ten times the effect.
Okay...soooo lets get impartial...Eve Dude Plus, rates the Gallante Frigate Tristan, at 550,000. Which is silly..we all know it. It rates the Megathron at 210,000,000...which again is silly.
Its over 380 times as much...(at like I said a much greater scale)
Ok... well. All I was trying to say by my example is that you cannot equate financial cost to worth directly. It dosn't matter if it's 1000 times as much. People want the best SINGLE ship in the game they go for the BS. They forget, I fear, that against a fleet you need escort. The miner1/2 thing was just an example.
In summery. The question (what do I get for 90mil when you can get a ship for 150k?) is invalid as the BS is NOT supposed to be (and never was even at NPC price) hundreds of times better than a frigate...
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:58:00 -
[47]
But the difference is bigger, too.
Miner I - Miner II
Price 1:10; effeciency 1:1.5
frigate - BS
2 mining lasers - 8 mining lasers
price 1:380; effeciency 1:4
Granted, when we balance this levle out we will still have a 1:10 for the miners and a 1:100 for the BS. But as was said before, the price and the added effeciency are not linear. Effeciency increase my be linear, but price increase is exponential. If you want to have a example just look at RL CPU prices.
You can take pre-miner2 times, too. The cu-vapor, which was a meager 1.225 as effective than the miner1 was priced at 2 mil each.
If we compare the old miner1-cu ratio with the frig-bs ratio we get somewhat similar values for the same effeciency increase.
free speech not allowed here |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:58:00 -
[48]
Eric
Forget Pirates and Roids
Please, please, please...*lord let him answer straight this time*
What role is a battleship supposed to carry out where players are concerned? Lots of people have thrown their arms up, but no-one...and we are onto the third page here people..has answered.....
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:01:00 -
[49]
Simple, it's the best tool available atm - so people get it.
You could as well ask why people buy 3000+ mhz CPUs.
free speech not allowed here |
EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:02:00 -
[50]
whoa far too many stats... but a good point.
The worth maybe linear but the price is not.
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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:04:00 -
[51]
I want to introduce you guys to a new concept....The Wheel
I give up for the moment
Going to Eve-I
You get a better class of Luddite
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EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:05:00 -
[52]
Edited by: EvilEric on 10/11/2003 02:05:48
Quote:
Eric
Forget Pirates and Roids
Please, please, please...*lord let him answer straight this time*
What role is a battleship supposed to carry out where players are concerned? Lots of people have thrown their arms up, but no-one...and we are onto the third page here people..has answered.....
Pirates and roids? huh?...
A battleship? Well it's the best thing for killing other players... It's just that MULTIPLE ships can take it out... (forget the cost!!!) There you go, question answered. Not hard to understand really.
Edit: Enjoy Eve-i ya frikken Troll
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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:26:00 -
[53]
WOW
Had a whole page of free speech deleted.
"Neo..the Matrix has you"
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Mandor
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:30:00 -
[54]
this post has been sliced and diced by a moderator.
there was nothing salacious said..but it suddenly shrunk from 4 pages to 3...and a selective 3
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:41:00 -
[55]
*sigh*
A single frigate has cost people their battleship in the past. Assuming that guns and damage are the only things to destroy a ship ignores what can make a frigate extremely dangerous.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:52:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Gan Howorth on 10/11/2003 02:53:53
Q: what does a Battleship give to the friendly side?
A: The ability to host large weapons and therefore deal more damage at greater distances.
Q: and take away from the hostile side?
A: Presumeably lots of shield followed by armour.
Additionally can act as a formidable multirole craft simultaneoulsy due to its slots.
(see also mining example)
It is an asset that needs protecting in a damage dealing role from threats it cannot easily counter. e.g. frigates in this thread.
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Ariell Lucinwind
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:58:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Ariell Lucinwind on 10/11/2003 02:58:43
Quote:
For the 90+ milion...What do you think the Battleship should provide to a friendly force / take away from an enemy force?
What should it give for the investment!!!???
Provide -- A place to host large parties and a great feel of security when you invite all your friends over for the PJ party.
Take Away -- Should make you enemies jealous cause you have one and they dont and that you didnt invite them to the party.
And on a side note - this post is as deep as a teaspoon. I dont really care what I get for 90,000,000 but I do know its more steel/armour/defense/offense and anything else including the fuzzy dice hanging from my POD that will hopefully cover my butt while I am in it. 
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Came back cause I love you guys :P |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 03:04:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Warzone on 10/11/2003 03:05:17
Well put A...still laughing at the fuzzy dice thing.
As for the mining platform...please spare me.
For 6 million I can buy a Thorax which can mount five mining lasers...or should I pay the extra 84 million, for another two...that is a tough one, and has kept me awake at night for........minutes!!!
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Hodokie Seek
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Posted - 2003.11.10 04:21:00 -
[59]
Quote:
Edited by: Warzone on 10/11/2003 03:05:17
Well put A...still laughing at the fuzzy dice thing.
As for the mining platform...please spare me.
For 6 million I can buy a Thorax which can mount five mining lasers...or should I pay the extra 84 million, for another two...that is a tough one, and has kept me awake at night for........minutes!!!
Based on reading what's left of the post, and much of it being cost comparison or what ever, maybe you issue is not as much with CCP changing targeting paramerters, but maybe with the player base setting the price? As it's been stated before here, for some, it's not the cost, it's just to have it.
Another thing, with many flying battleships, outside of a few corps, I have not read recently of where a fleet of frigates and/or cruisers have engaged a fleet of just battleships. If there has been, what was the fleets composition and numbers? Who won?
*Hodo now dawns his flame retardent underware"
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Quote:
[07:11:41] Hodokie Seek > k, will probably go in my Tristan.
[07:12:18] xxxx > tristan? is it a hazardous area?
[07:12:27] Hodokie Seek > Yep
[07:12:34] xxxx > nuts
[07:12:37] Hodokie Seek > Yep
[07:12:52] xxxx > wouldn't be so bad, but i'd hate to lose my implants
[07:13:06] xxxx > i'll go in my omen
/emote Hodokie Seek <---- No implants and no brains.
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Bic Pentameter
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Posted - 2003.11.10 05:02:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Bic Pentameter on 10/11/2003 05:06:04
Quote:
It's sad to see that some ppl think that a BB, the naval acronym for a Battleship, I dislike the BS one for....well obvious reasons 
Lets start over....
Well it is sad to see that some ppl think that a BB is, or should be, a do it all queen of space battles, the ultimate ship, the bringer of doom.......it isn't and shouldn't be....ever.
Although at the mo' it seems to be the most powerful ship and everybody apparently HAS to have one to succeed in EVE.
BB's have their weaknessess which is ironically their size.....although bristling with powerful weapons and heavy armor, the reality is that such mass and long range guns are practically useless at short range.
That's where the other ships come in, their purpose, like in real life, is to screen the BB so it can accomplish the mission, hence we have battle groups.
It's a fact that even now BB's are a tad too powerful and nobody wants to fly anything else.
I know this is a game and realism is a word that scares a lot of gamers.....but wouldn't be rather silly if we had everyone in BB's?
if i might take this thought just a tad further;
the place a BB fills in a real battle is decided in the planing stage where someone says "ok, we have this all planned but i would feel better if we could have some accurate, long range artillary placed right about HERE"
and that's where the BB comes in, not a case of;
"well we got dis here big assed big boat, now let's go do sumpin with it".
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