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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.09 22:32:00 -
[1]
I know there was a post from the devs which floated an idea of frigates being more difficult to target.
Lots of people said hooray!!! I'm afraid I'm in the other camp.
My dear old Megathron retails at 90+ million. Now if you want to work on the human wave idea and sink half a million into each frigate..that's not gonna be a bad frigate.
90 million divided by .5 = 180 little snapping turtles biting your heels.
I'l be honest. Even the way things are today. I'd put my money on the 180 small south american pooches, rather than the 1 Rottweiler.
If they put this in...I just wonder what my large bucket of frigate fodder will do with itself....and why I spent the money in the first place.
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Halo Jones
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Posted - 2003.11.09 22:40:00 -
[2]
heh
180 speedboats do not a battleship sink, well the might, but you'd need a right few pounds of semtex on baord
Oberon Incorporated. |
Mandor
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Posted - 2003.11.09 22:43:00 -
[3]
Halo
Even if a third of them got to within 7K, and orbited you, your ass would be mowed so smoothly, you could play pool on it.
That is assuming of course u could kill 120 of them as they approached.
I think u may have missed the point.
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Jorlin
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Posted - 2003.11.09 22:45:00 -
[4]
not too much to worry about...
they would still need 180 pilots in your scenario. and if they have 180 pilots, most of 'em would fly a BS anyway 
no police, no summons, no courts of law;
no proper procedure, no rules of war;
no mitigating circumstance;
no lawyers fees, no second chance! |
Znaei
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Posted - 2003.11.09 22:45:00 -
[5]
They didnt say it would be harder to target smaller ships. They said it would take longer to target them.
clagnuts> im drunk just come back from pirates night in spain , wtf i thought it was some eve guys getting together for a drink , turned out to be a feken real pirates show , doh |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.09 22:46:00 -
[6]
Hmmm
So longer does not make it harder.
WOW
I want what you're on!!
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Jorlin
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Posted - 2003.11.09 22:48:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jorlin on 09/11/2003 22:49:19
and not to forget...if you're attacked by 180 frigates, you won't even know you're dead till you see the next frame...which should show up about 10 minutes later.
no police, no summons, no courts of law;
no proper procedure, no rules of war;
no mitigating circumstance;
no lawyers fees, no second chance! |
Shakellia
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Posted - 2003.11.09 22:52:00 -
[8]
i think that warzone is talking about exepnditure and abilitie eve is all like rock paper and sissors.
i understand what he means in that even today a bs probly couldn't take out half that amount, let alone make it more difficult
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Znaei
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Posted - 2003.11.09 23:01:00 -
[9]
Obviously it is harder to targe a small object than a bigger one, to me its common sence.
A battleship does not have to fear a few frigates, just because it takes a few more seconds to target them. The damage that a frigate deals to a battleship is minimal, compared. We will probably never see a fleet of 180 frigates attacking a bs. I fly a bs and Im not concerned by this at all.
clagnuts> im drunk just come back from pirates night in spain , wtf i thought it was some eve guys getting together for a drink , turned out to be a feken real pirates show , doh |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.09 23:13:00 -
[10]
Yah, this is a non-issue. Given the number of pilots it would take to pull down a BS, having them in Frigates that take a few more seconds to target than normal ships would still be a preferable situation to having those same pilots in outfitted Moas, Blackbirds or Scorpions.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Indigo Seqi
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Posted - 2003.11.09 23:15:00 -
[11]
I'm all for this kind of stuff. I'd love to fly a tough as nails cruiser using smart flying to kill stuff, but for now I'm just sitting in a scorp because a BS is simply the only option if you want to have any chance of dealing damage and/or surviving a fight.
And really, elite frigates should be at least something like 750k, maybe even a mil.
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Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2003.11.09 23:25:00 -
[12]
Your dear old megathron shouldnt be unescorted.
Right now that is not needed...it should be in the future.
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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.09 23:25:00 -
[13]
Okay...lets look at things as they are today. We have big ships and we have small ships.
Why do you think that major powers invest in large platforms?
It's because they kick ass and take names...they do not bob about in the sea in "speed boats" to show the world, how mean and nasty thay are.
So where is the power projection, other than the big graphic of the battleship?
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.09 23:27:00 -
[14]
Considering the time, effort, and isk spent in purchasing implants/doing agent missions for implants, I prefer to have several million isks-worth of armour between me and the cold harsh void of space.
When I eventually get podded, I'll stay off the implants for a while so I can get back to using a cheap-o cruiser (Caracal/Blackbird) and start making suicide runs.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.09 23:33:00 -
[15]
Okay Karash..lets follow your logic.
I have my 90 million ISK ship escorted...by lets say 4 frigates and two cruisers.
What would you say it's meaningful function and purpose was for this 90 million investment...I'm really curious?
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Jasmyn
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Posted - 2003.11.09 23:46:00 -
[16]
large smart bombs and torps?
Someone once told me they loved me. |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.09 23:59:00 -
[17]
ROFL
You mean to shoot torps at some other turkey who wasted 90 mill...or try and crawl up to people and ask them to please, please , please wait till I smart bomb them.
Have you ever been in PVP?
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:01:00 -
[18]
And let's not forget that you need 180 people for these frigs, too.
You could as well why the industry buys a big machine where one can do the work of 10, while 10 simpler tools for 10 people would be cheaper.
It's because they have to pay those people, too.
Of cource, players in EVE do not need to be paid per se, but the time you have to spend in the game is the money equvalent there.
Just try to organize a big ops, it get's more and more difficult with more people involved.
free speech not allowed here |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:02:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Warzone on 10/11/2003 00:03:23
Ana...pls read the post three up...from yours
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Skaz
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:10:00 -
[20]
It's sad to see that some ppl think that a BB, the naval acronym for a Battleship, I dislike the BS one for....well obvious reasons 
Lets start over....
Well it is sad to see that some ppl think that a BB is, or should be, a do it all queen of space battles, the ultimate ship, the bringer of doom.......it isn't and shouldn't be....ever.
Although at the mo' it seems to be the most powerful ship and everybody apparently HAS to have one to succeed in EVE.
BB's have their weaknessess which is ironically their size.....although bristling with powerful weapons and heavy armor, the reality is that such mass and long range guns are practically useless at short range.
That's where the other ships come in, their purpose, like in real life, is to screen the BB so it can accomplish the mission, hence we have battle groups.
It's a fact that even now BB's are a tad too powerful and nobody wants to fly anything else.
I know this is a game and realism is a word that scares a lot of gamers.....but wouldn't be rather silly if we had everyone in BB's?
"No, I'm not alt.....even if I have been in Pator Tech School for 2 years..." |
ZzeusS
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:12:00 -
[21]
Well, the very thing I first thing of, is get the frig with the highest number of missile slots (2? 3?) and load them with cheap launchers and couple torps. Warp in.. target.. release. With maybe 3 or 4 frigs doing this. May only knock out 2 or 3 missiles with defenders. Rinse, repeat.
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Slinky Redfoot
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:15:00 -
[22]
Ever seen a frigate kill someone from 50km?
One class of ships is not supposed to replace another.Speed *should* make a difference and battleships shouldn't be able to outfly frigates/cruisers.Why do you think titans have half the cap of a battleship?Because they aren't supposed to wade into combat.
We'd have war fleets consisting mainly of cruisers, with frigates as fast support/electronic warfare, battleships as long range artillery and titans as dropships/carriers.
Lets have some tactical warfare, instaid of 'my guns are bigger then yours' all the time.
Got Banana? |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:18:00 -
[23]
Okay Skaz, terminology aside...BB /BS..blah blah
You are attempting to describe a second world war warship. A modern day combat platform (crusier...and even the US BB's that were used in the first gulf war) can detect, engage and destroy multiple targets.
This issue of slugs being surrounded by hi-tech natives is a myth in modern day.....
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Slinky Redfoot
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:19:00 -
[24]
 Quote:
Well, the very thing I first thing of, is get the frig with the highest number of missile slots (2? 3?) and load them with cheap launchers and couple torps. Warp in.. target.. release. With maybe 3 or 4 frigs doing this. May only knock out 2 or 3 missiles with defenders. Rinse, repeat.
4 slots on a Kestrel, and no frigate can hold torps.. 'cept for maybe a merlin or tristan, and both can only hold 1 H-50.
Got Banana? |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:23:00 -
[25]
*hands Slinky an asbestos coat*
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Mandor
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:26:00 -
[26]
*gives Slinky a road map (must use both hands) to find the mystical back side*
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Skaz
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:30:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Okay Skaz, terminology aside...BB /BS..blah blah
You are attempting to describe a second world war warship. A modern day combat platform (cruiser...and even the US BB's that were used in the first gulf war) can detect, engage and destroy multiple targets.
This issue of slugs being surrounded by hi-tech natives is a myth in modern day.....
Ah yes, I'm describing WWII naval combat for a reason, because that's what I think that the devs were aiming for when creating the game.
Like a post here above, ONE ship can't be a ruler of the....erhm, stars?
P.S.
US warships can engage and destroy multiple targets, but that doesn't mean that multiple targets are easy to destroy, ever tried to coordinate a large effort with multiple cocurrent objectives....
But the fact is that even modern cruisers, since you want to use them, aren't alone out there, they have Destroyers as screening vessels against small assault crafts and for ASW. So our modern day destroyers would be frigs in EVE.
So your argument of a omnipodent modern warship falls on itself doesn't it?
Battlegroups existed for a reason in WWII, they exist today for the same reason AND they will exist in the future for still the same reason:
No ship can be good at everything.
"No, I'm not alt.....even if I have been in Pator Tech School for 2 years..." |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:37:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Ah yes, I'm describing WWII naval combat for a reason, because that's what I think that the devs were aiming for when creating the game.
I don't seem to remember smart bombs, or missiles, dossing about....or multiple acquisition, ecm / eccm systems either?
I don't want to send this into Troll mode.
What is the funvtion and the investment of the 90 million + supposed to produce?
Please put all your Star Wars videos away...
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Brel
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:42:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Okay Skaz, terminology aside...BB /BS..blah blah
You are attempting to describe a second world war warship. A modern day combat platform (crusier...and even the US BB's that were used in the first gulf war) can detect, engage and destroy multiple targets.
This issue of slugs being surrounded by hi-tech natives is a myth in modern day.....
A battleship on its own is a sitting duck even in modern warfare. Submarines for example could easily take out a battleship as some of of them are actually designed for that purpose. Carriers and battleships in modern warfare are accompanied by a whole host of other ships to support them and protect them from weapon systems/ships they have no or very little defense against. The gulf war is a terrible example as the enemy had no navy to speak of except for a small collection of shoreline patrol boats.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:45:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 10/11/2003 00:55:45
Er.. complete edit. NM, misunderstood you again. I think it's slowly time for bed.
Again, the trouble will be getting the people together. Sure, big corps can have lots, but not really more like 20-30 on one place.
They could launch missles - but missles are actually quite impractical there, because they still have the tendancy to kill each other. A few defenders could kill 200 cruises in one boom.
This leaves turrets. With 180 frigs against 1 BS the frigs would win, no questions asked. But that is no realistic szenario, a more realistic would be 5 BS against 50 frigs. And even those 50 frigs are a quite high number IMO). Now, if those BS have a MWD those 50 frigs have already lost, they cannot hope to get close enough to a BS using one to attack it. And even if not, it's unlikely that they will be able to kill more than one, even if they are lucky. Of cource 1 BS will have cost more than those 50 frigs, but you have to take the time and the people into account - if those 5 people would have been mining in the time they made this ops they would have made more than 100mil I think.
And let's not forget insurance.
free speech not allowed here |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:48:00 -
[31]
Still no one has answered the question of what they are meant to achieve for the price.
We don't have a "submarine" in Eve, so that's a non issue.
I'll ask again...(if u can all try not to say it's big and it should be easy to shoot pls)
WOW....I'm not sure Darwin was right....
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Slinky Redfoot
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:54:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Slinky Redfoot on 10/11/2003 00:58:40
Quote:
Ever seen a frigate kill someone from 50km?
One class of ships is not supposed to replace another.Speed *should* make a difference and battleships shouldn't be able to outfly frigates/cruisers.Why do you think titans have half the cap of a battleship?Because they aren't supposed to wade into combat.
We'd have war fleets consisting mainly of cruisers, with frigates as fast support/electronic warfare, battleships as long range artillery and titans as dropships/carriers.
Lets have some tactical warfare, instaid of 'my guns are bigger then yours' all the time.
Quoting myself here, because Warzone must have accidently skipped my post. . bless his cotton socks.
I'll ask you again, for the last time: why do you think titans have half the capacitor and armor/shields compared to Battleships?By your logic (Titan>Battleship>Cruiser>Frigate) shouldn't titans be ontop of the food chain?
Got Banana? |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 00:58:00 -
[33]
Don't answer a question with question.
For the 90+ milion...What do you think the Battleship should provide to a friendly force / take away from an enemy force?
Don't try and say if / but / and / when.
What should it give for the investment!!!???
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Slinky Redfoot
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:00:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Slinky Redfoot on 10/11/2003 01:05:00
I give up.
Got Banana? |
EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:01:00 -
[35]
Well Warzone I'll try... Power projection...
Yes, you are escorted by "support" vessels to deal with "fleets" of other smaller craft but a BS in this sense is supposed to be the focal point of holding ground (read gate, warp-in whatever).
A BS can (in theory) take out any single other craft. But to deal with large groups you are going to need "point defense".
Your 90mil investment is supposed to be one in say 10 craft. The real problem, as I see it, BS's are too common so ppl now think they are the ONLY craft they should be driving...
Also taking direct commparisons by cost is no indicator of worth. A miner I, for example, costs 35k and a miner II, (only 50% better) costs much more (500k the last time I checked)
Just because it cost 90mil does not mean it should be 180 times better than a frigate.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:05:00 -
[36]
Quote:
What should it give for the investment!!!???
I think I answered this already. It gives you the ability to do more with a smaller workforce.
Your workforce is ALWAYS limited, be it a 5 person babycorp or a 300 people megacorp, you only have a limited amount of people.
If you put 5 (or 300) people in BS they will be much more effective than in frigs.
free speech not allowed here |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:10:00 -
[37]
Could someone please not try to blame the Battleship...don't blame CCP.
Someone try to answer the question of what it is supposed to do for the money.
*pinch me lord...and then post an answer to the question..no one seems to want to*
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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:12:00 -
[38]
Okay Ana...we're on a roll.
Five people in Battelships. What can that half a billion ISK do?
What do you think it should be able to do?
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EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:17:00 -
[39]
Quote:
Could someone please not try to blame the Battleship...don't blame CCP.
Someone try to answer the question of what it is supposed to do for the money.
*pinch me lord...and then post an answer to the question..no one seems to want to*
Gosh now I get to quote myself w00t!!
Quote:
Also taking direct commparisons by cost is no indicator of worth. A miner I, for example, costs 35k and a miner II, (only 50% better) costs much more (500k the last time I checked)
Just because it cost 90mil does not mean it should be 180 times better than a frigate.
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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:23:00 -
[40]
Please answer the question...and do not feed the Trolls
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:26:00 -
[41]
- They can make more money than in cruisers or frigs. If they mine ore hunt NPCs, of cource, everywhere where you just need to move (agent missions, for example) a frig can be as effective.
- They can kill stronger players. Be in 5 frigs, encounter 3 BS - run & hope at least one will make it. Be in 5 BS, encounter 3 enemy BS - kill them (if you have a similar skilllevel and outfit quality/strategy, that is)
free speech not allowed here |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:27:00 -
[42]
He's right, that miner1/2 example is pretty much the same what I am saying.
free speech not allowed here |
EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:27:00 -
[43]
The question is invalid... please READ my sodding post. If you say.... "Answer my question" again YOU are tolling not us.
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Darketh Nightspawn
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:29:00 -
[44]
Frigates should eb fast... hard to target....
You fit your BS up with big gun sand nothign else you deserve everything those speed boats give to you.
Simple fact is, at the moment there is only one Ship in the game... Battleship.
CCP should be coming up with inventive ways to make the other ships useful (other than the BB which is useful enough as it is).
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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:42:00 -
[45]
Eric / Ana
It's a question of scale... A Miner I may cost 50K and a Miner II may cost 500K. My god..ten times as much...and it doesn't give ten times the effect.
Okay...soooo lets get impartial...Eve Dude Plus, rates the Gallante Frigate Tristan, at 550,000. Which is silly..we all know it. It rates the Megathron at 210,000,000...which again is silly.
Its over 380 times as much...(at like I said a much greater scale)
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EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:49:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Eric / Ana
It's a question of scale... A Miner I may cost 50K and a Miner II may cost 500K. My god..ten times as much...and it doesn't give ten times the effect.
Okay...soooo lets get impartial...Eve Dude Plus, rates the Gallante Frigate Tristan, at 550,000. Which is silly..we all know it. It rates the Megathron at 210,000,000...which again is silly.
Its over 380 times as much...(at like I said a much greater scale)
Ok... well. All I was trying to say by my example is that you cannot equate financial cost to worth directly. It dosn't matter if it's 1000 times as much. People want the best SINGLE ship in the game they go for the BS. They forget, I fear, that against a fleet you need escort. The miner1/2 thing was just an example.
In summery. The question (what do I get for 90mil when you can get a ship for 150k?) is invalid as the BS is NOT supposed to be (and never was even at NPC price) hundreds of times better than a frigate...
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:58:00 -
[47]
But the difference is bigger, too.
Miner I - Miner II
Price 1:10; effeciency 1:1.5
frigate - BS
2 mining lasers - 8 mining lasers
price 1:380; effeciency 1:4
Granted, when we balance this levle out we will still have a 1:10 for the miners and a 1:100 for the BS. But as was said before, the price and the added effeciency are not linear. Effeciency increase my be linear, but price increase is exponential. If you want to have a example just look at RL CPU prices.
You can take pre-miner2 times, too. The cu-vapor, which was a meager 1.225 as effective than the miner1 was priced at 2 mil each.
If we compare the old miner1-cu ratio with the frig-bs ratio we get somewhat similar values for the same effeciency increase.
free speech not allowed here |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 01:58:00 -
[48]
Eric
Forget Pirates and Roids
Please, please, please...*lord let him answer straight this time*
What role is a battleship supposed to carry out where players are concerned? Lots of people have thrown their arms up, but no-one...and we are onto the third page here people..has answered.....
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:01:00 -
[49]
Simple, it's the best tool available atm - so people get it.
You could as well ask why people buy 3000+ mhz CPUs.
free speech not allowed here |
EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:02:00 -
[50]
whoa far too many stats... but a good point.
The worth maybe linear but the price is not.
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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:04:00 -
[51]
I want to introduce you guys to a new concept....The Wheel
I give up for the moment
Going to Eve-I
You get a better class of Luddite
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EvilEric
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:05:00 -
[52]
Edited by: EvilEric on 10/11/2003 02:05:48
Quote:
Eric
Forget Pirates and Roids
Please, please, please...*lord let him answer straight this time*
What role is a battleship supposed to carry out where players are concerned? Lots of people have thrown their arms up, but no-one...and we are onto the third page here people..has answered.....
Pirates and roids? huh?...
A battleship? Well it's the best thing for killing other players... It's just that MULTIPLE ships can take it out... (forget the cost!!!) There you go, question answered. Not hard to understand really.
Edit: Enjoy Eve-i ya frikken Troll
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Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:26:00 -
[53]
WOW
Had a whole page of free speech deleted.
"Neo..the Matrix has you"
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Mandor
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:30:00 -
[54]
this post has been sliced and diced by a moderator.
there was nothing salacious said..but it suddenly shrunk from 4 pages to 3...and a selective 3
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:41:00 -
[55]
*sigh*
A single frigate has cost people their battleship in the past. Assuming that guns and damage are the only things to destroy a ship ignores what can make a frigate extremely dangerous.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:52:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Gan Howorth on 10/11/2003 02:53:53
Q: what does a Battleship give to the friendly side?
A: The ability to host large weapons and therefore deal more damage at greater distances.
Q: and take away from the hostile side?
A: Presumeably lots of shield followed by armour.
Additionally can act as a formidable multirole craft simultaneoulsy due to its slots.
(see also mining example)
It is an asset that needs protecting in a damage dealing role from threats it cannot easily counter. e.g. frigates in this thread.
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Ariell Lucinwind
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Posted - 2003.11.10 02:58:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Ariell Lucinwind on 10/11/2003 02:58:43
Quote:
For the 90+ milion...What do you think the Battleship should provide to a friendly force / take away from an enemy force?
What should it give for the investment!!!???
Provide -- A place to host large parties and a great feel of security when you invite all your friends over for the PJ party.
Take Away -- Should make you enemies jealous cause you have one and they dont and that you didnt invite them to the party.
And on a side note - this post is as deep as a teaspoon. I dont really care what I get for 90,000,000 but I do know its more steel/armour/defense/offense and anything else including the fuzzy dice hanging from my POD that will hopefully cover my butt while I am in it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Came back cause I love you guys :P |
Warzone
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Posted - 2003.11.10 03:04:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Warzone on 10/11/2003 03:05:17
Well put A...still laughing at the fuzzy dice thing.
As for the mining platform...please spare me.
For 6 million I can buy a Thorax which can mount five mining lasers...or should I pay the extra 84 million, for another two...that is a tough one, and has kept me awake at night for........minutes!!!
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Hodokie Seek
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Posted - 2003.11.10 04:21:00 -
[59]
Quote:
Edited by: Warzone on 10/11/2003 03:05:17
Well put A...still laughing at the fuzzy dice thing.
As for the mining platform...please spare me.
For 6 million I can buy a Thorax which can mount five mining lasers...or should I pay the extra 84 million, for another two...that is a tough one, and has kept me awake at night for........minutes!!!
Based on reading what's left of the post, and much of it being cost comparison or what ever, maybe you issue is not as much with CCP changing targeting paramerters, but maybe with the player base setting the price? As it's been stated before here, for some, it's not the cost, it's just to have it.
Another thing, with many flying battleships, outside of a few corps, I have not read recently of where a fleet of frigates and/or cruisers have engaged a fleet of just battleships. If there has been, what was the fleets composition and numbers? Who won?
*Hodo now dawns his flame retardent underware"
__________________________________________
Quote:
[07:11:41] Hodokie Seek > k, will probably go in my Tristan.
[07:12:18] xxxx > tristan? is it a hazardous area?
[07:12:27] Hodokie Seek > Yep
[07:12:34] xxxx > nuts
[07:12:37] Hodokie Seek > Yep
[07:12:52] xxxx > wouldn't be so bad, but i'd hate to lose my implants
[07:13:06] xxxx > i'll go in my omen
/emote Hodokie Seek <---- No implants and no brains.
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Bic Pentameter
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Posted - 2003.11.10 05:02:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Bic Pentameter on 10/11/2003 05:06:04
Quote:
It's sad to see that some ppl think that a BB, the naval acronym for a Battleship, I dislike the BS one for....well obvious reasons
Lets start over....
Well it is sad to see that some ppl think that a BB is, or should be, a do it all queen of space battles, the ultimate ship, the bringer of doom.......it isn't and shouldn't be....ever.
Although at the mo' it seems to be the most powerful ship and everybody apparently HAS to have one to succeed in EVE.
BB's have their weaknessess which is ironically their size.....although bristling with powerful weapons and heavy armor, the reality is that such mass and long range guns are practically useless at short range.
That's where the other ships come in, their purpose, like in real life, is to screen the BB so it can accomplish the mission, hence we have battle groups.
It's a fact that even now BB's are a tad too powerful and nobody wants to fly anything else.
I know this is a game and realism is a word that scares a lot of gamers.....but wouldn't be rather silly if we had everyone in BB's?
if i might take this thought just a tad further;
the place a BB fills in a real battle is decided in the planing stage where someone says "ok, we have this all planned but i would feel better if we could have some accurate, long range artillary placed right about HERE"
and that's where the BB comes in, not a case of;
"well we got dis here big assed big boat, now let's go do sumpin with it".
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2003.11.10 07:12:00 -
[61]
Ok, if the question here is "What exactly makes a battleship worth the money."... Well, a battleship gives you about a 25-50% increase in mining speed PLUS the ability to ignore NPCs instead of having to mount guns or bring escorts to kill them. It gives you the ability to chain kill high-bounty cruiser NPCs far faster, safer, and longer than a cruiser does. In short, a battleship makes money faster than a cruiser. If you can make an extra million ISK per hour chain-killing NPCs in an Armageddon than you can in a Maller, you will recover the extra 60 million ISK or so the Armageddon cost you in 60 hours. So if you will spend MORE than 60 hours chaining NPCs it's worth the investment... (just an example, you might make MORE than a million extra / hour)
Now, if you are more interested in the question "What makes a battleship worth the money in PVP combat" that is entirely different. Remember, many battleship pilots do not fight in PVP. They bought the ship to make money mining or farming. But if you ARE interested in the PVP aspect, look at this:
Punisher frigate (200k ISK) - 250 shield, 300 armor, 250 structure, 4 / 2 / 4 slots, 3 guns
Maller cruiser (5M ISK) - 875 shield, 1200 armor, 1100 structure, 6 / 3 / 6 slots, 5 guns
Apocalypse battleship (90M ISK) - 3975 shield, 4800 armor, 4250 structure, 8 / 4 / 7 slots, 8 guns
The Maller is 4 times tougher than a Punisher and hits about 3 times harder. It costs as much as 25 Punishers but only fights like 3-4. The Apocalypse is 4 times tougher than the Maller and hits about 3 times harder. It costs as much as 18 Mallers and fights like 3-4 of them. So if you believe buying a cruiser to get the power of several frigates is worth it, you must also consider a battleship worth it since you get the SAME LEVEL of increase for a LOWER cost. That is to say, 1 Maller is as good as 4 Punishers but costs 25x as much but 1 Apocalypse is as good as 4 Mallers and only costs 18x as much. The jump from 5 million to 90 million LOOKS big, but it's the jump from 200 thousand to 5 million that is actally larger in terms of efficiency. After all, it's better to pay 18 times a ship's cost for 4 times the power than 25 times the ship's cost!
(Oh and if you doubt my ship prices feel free to use NPC prices instead. The pattern still holds.)
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Carpe Mundum
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Posted - 2003.11.10 12:32:00 -
[62]
Yeah well i heard you can take out a BS with
5 Kestrels decked out with cruise missiles and a BB running good nerfs on the BS. I had a friend who claimed to do this one.. Don't know if its true but soundly plosable. Point being
bb=2.9mill
5x kestrel = 1mill
equip = (1-5mill maybe?)
vs
Apoc = 90 Mill
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 13:45:00 -
[63]
And 3 people vs 1. It's a lot more difficult to plan an ops with 3 than alone.
And specialized outfit. Try the same thing agfainst a BS which has 1-2 defender in it's missle launchers.
free speech not allowed here |
Xeserox
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Posted - 2003.11.10 13:46:00 -
[64]
Okay, this question that you ask is nto a simple question to answer because there are to many fronts for it to be answered one. What you are missing is teh far that eric and ana are taking it from the miners point of view. And that is a great point of view for right now since BB mining is a big deal. You can make lots of money doing so and in some cases you make the money that you invested in your battle ship back. You can MINE more in a battleship with just one battleship because in that battle ship you can have several miners online PLUS hold your own in defenses with some guns to get rid of the pesky NPC pirates. ONe ship rather than having 5 frigates mining, another ship or two running defenses from the NPC priates and then another shiping having to haul.
Now in terms of war... alot of people here are pointing out a key issue that many are missing. Battleships are mean as long range boats. They shoot from afar.. They were mean for major bombarments of port towns. And they do this from a distance. I expect in the future when there rea player run stations and there are major wars going, you don't want to be up close and personal trying to destroy that station. Even when they have gun protecting it. Now if i am nto mistaken, BBs can shoot outside the range of sentry guns (55km). Now what happens, when from said station there are a flurry of cruisers and frigates deployed for defenses... They use their speed adn agility to get out to those battleships and they have nothing for short range... they are toast.
No ship can be the ship to replace all. Everyone that is Playing eve right now is blinding by the concept of stronger means better... unless you are a miner.... I get razzed all the time in my corp for being what i am....
I'm a frigates expert.... sorry but i love those fast lil speed boats that are seen as weak... but what do you do.. when you have a rifter locked onto you and shooting... and that rifter is dealing out 60 to 100 damage? Honestly? that is one nasty mosquito is it not? Who knows that out there.. there is another pilot like myself.... Lvl 5 gunnery and all small weapons skills.... lvl 4 Surgical Strike.... lvl 4 all frigate skills but minmatar which is lvl 5? Rapid firing, controled bursts, motion prediction, trajectory analysis? do i need to go on?
Think about it.... just think about it.. and maybe... reword your question a bit better.... and look at the pros and cons of all ships.
Just my 2 bucks worth..
Xeserox
-Free Lance Frigate Pilot |
Bite Me
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Posted - 2003.11.11 18:26:00 -
[65]
- bump - flame me if u want but What was the topic again ? eve-term: bs = battleship bb = blackbird. eve aint navel. and if 180 frigates even lock on me id say Bye bye ship. a single kestrel with cruises deals 1200 damage atleast. Would take alot of bs to take that armada down
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