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How to lose a Vindicator- a short story.

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Royaldo KVA Noble Inc. THE H0RDE	Posted - 2006.11.12 14:23:00 - [61] haha.. you have bigger cap than mr mega, just hit the mwd and run from him.. if he had ecm fitted, hes hasnt fitted either mwd, web or scram, whats the problem then? either you outrun him or just plain warp out..
Draaken Caldari hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.12 15:59:00 - [62] Edited by: Draaken on 12/11/2006 16:13:20 Originally by: murder one Statistical chance of actually being jammed 4 times in a row given the sensor strengh and known jammer strength: 1.9%. Which only proves that statistics ~~aren't reliable~~ still leave a chance of things going the other way. In regards to posts further down (up), you do realize you're saying that 1.9% chances amount to "disproportionally effective", right? Edit for clarification/correction. ____________________ first!!1!! -Capsicum Originally by: Wrangler I lock, therefor I am.
Spiderweb Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:41:00 - [63] Edited by: Spiderweb on 12/11/2006 16:43:59 Edited by: Spiderweb on 12/11/2006 16:43:03 Originally by: murder one I'm no fanboi. I'm just irked that a ship like a Vindicator can be lost to something that amounts to a statistical anomaly. There was less than a 2% chance of success on the other guy's part, yet it happened. It's just bad luck is all, isn't it? Chance isn't good game design. ignoring the insane amounts of forum whining and drivelling that you have been engaged lately, ill tell you one thing. check the games around you and in historical context. Almost ALL games have "luck" based mechanics in one way or another and chance in some of them plays a huge role. I dont mean competitive PC games only, I mean tabletop, solitaire card games the lot. If you dont like chance, start playing chess, though I bet you'll fail miserably with the amount of brain cells that occupy your brain. And yes you can adapt and always can influence the chance based mechanics in one way or another in ALL games that have luck as a factor. The rest is just history and Respect to the guy who totally wtfpwned you with a normal mega while you rolled over and cry died JUST because you were omgwtfbbq jammed (IF the story is real, since you are full of bs 99% the time in his forum board). ----------------------------------------------- "Light, in the Darkest of Hours..."
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:46:00 - [64] Originally by: El Yatta Frankly, murder one, it doesnt surprise me in the least that you have tested ECCM and used it in combat extensively and it's never helped you. Why? Because I have and do, as do my corpmates, and we find it works great. The reason why it never helps you is cosmic balance , or "Kharma". You are the flipside, the other end of the seesaw, the counterweight, to all of us having a happy gaming experience. I was gasping for breath by the time I stopped laughing! Great stuff!
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.12 17:43:00 - [65] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Miss Overlord i digress this fool will run his course WTF, do I have to go get witnesses? You ppl have your heads so far up your asses that you think that it's just not possible? amen. ecm is very powerful on anything larger than a frig. i'm not sure what i want to say, but he does have a very valid point and the people who try to ignore it end up looking like idiots. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Robimus	Posted - 2006.11.14 02:27:00 - [66] Edited by: Robimus on 14/11/2006 02:31:56 You guys want to hear something funy. Murder One, also known as Bellum Eternus, once killed me when I was in a Geddon . He in a vexor and one other person in a raven killed me, and guess how they did it? Yep Murder one the very person here who is crying about ecm used ecm against me. What did I do? I came back in a Blasterthron fitted with ECM and Killed his Vindicator Yep it was me who did it and yep it was great. Every -10 pirate cries like a little kid when a real PVP'er brings a real fight to them and they die. Oh and your statistics are wrong. Training up jamming skills makes a huge difference. Mine are maxed. The sad part of the story is that a npc rat in the belt actualy got the killmail and not me. I asked him for his death mail and like the coward that he is, he would not give it to me. I still have it fraps'd and it will be one of the highlights to my video, ECM and all. Oh and I have enjoyed selling off all the faction loot. So far I have made over 600mil. isk. GF, Rob
Rhaven	Posted - 2006.11.14 02:43:00 - [67] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: murder one Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: murder one #1, that's my opinion. It's not a lie. #2 "it does" is your opinion. That is also not a lie. I think that your opinion is wrong, but you don't see me calling you a liar do you? Hmm, I see you're a product of the "everything is opinion" generation of public schooling. The fact that ECCM improves your sensors by 96% and thus makes you less vulnerable to jamming is not open to debate, nor is it an opinion. I didn't dispute that it improves your sensor strength by 96%. What I said was is that it wasn't effective enough, despite that healty increase. Yes, I'm well aware of your belief that 1 simple ECCM module should make you immune to jamming from a million ECM modules all trying to jam you at once. Good luck with that. What other counters work that way? I tried FOUR ECCM modules at once, for a total sensor strength of something like 72. And I STILL GOT JAMMED. What are you on? Pay attention! And yeah, I DID expect to not get jammed since I used FOUR modules to avoid it. WTF? That's not good enough for you? ok you were jammed by 2 t1 blackbird running ? 4-6 multispecs each or 4-6 racial jammers each? try changing up to a different type of scanner type whould change your chances of getting jammed...
Anti Protagonist Gallente Archron Dusyfe Industries	Posted - 2006.11.14 02:44:00 - [68] What goes around, comes around..... Good Job Robimus
Trem Sinval Sinval Enterprises	Posted - 2006.11.14 03:08:00 - [69] The numbers, Mr. Sulu! Crappiest racial jammer: 6. Vindi sensors: 24. Chance to jam (any cycle): 6/24, 1/4, 25% Chance to jam 4 consecutive times: (1/4)^4 = 0.39% chance ----- Vindi with crappiest t1 ECCM module: 36 sensor. Chance to jam (any cycle): 6/36, 1/6, 16.67% chance (IMPROVEMENT OF 33.3%) Chance to jam 4 consecutive times: (1/6)^4 = 0.077% chance ---- Improvement with ECCM fitted: 1 - (0.077 / 0.39) = 80.26% --- It would seem to me that not only are the chances of being jammed 4 consecutive cycles is astronomically small, FITTING A SINGLE ECCM MODULE would have saved your ship. As such, enjoy your 5bn loss. Could not have happened to a nicer, er, "pirate". - Trem
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.14 03:14:00 - [70] <3 Robimus murder... dunno what to say, it happens. both ways (equal handicap). __ Weirda Join QotSA

Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.14 03:32:00 - [71] Vindicator enters fight Megathron enters fight Vindicator pounds the living crap out of Megathron Megathron gets an unlikely roll on the ECM dice *Vindicator dies Hi! What? 'Chance' is whether you get an excellent hit or barely scratch when you fire a weapon. The outcome of a fight being determined by something random is stupidity. With ECM we should just go around flying giant dice and see who gets better rolls rather than actually bothering to fight. ---------- IBTL \o/
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.11.14 03:35:00 - [72] Originally by: Robimus Edited by: Robimus on 14/11/2006 02:31:56 You guys want to hear something funy. Murder One, also known as Bellum Eternus, once killed me when I was in a Geddon . He in a vexor and one other person in a raven killed me, and guess how they did it? Yep Murder one the very person here who is crying about ecm used ecm against me. What did I do? I came back in a Blasterthron fitted with ECM and Killed his Vindicator Yep it was me who did it and yep it was great. Every -10 pirate cries like a little kid when a real PVP'er brings a real fight to them and they die. Oh and your statistics are wrong. Training up jamming skills makes a huge difference. Mine are maxed. The sad part of the story is that a npc rat in the belt actualy got the killmail and not me. I asked him for his death mail and like the coward that he is, he would not give it to me. I still have it fraps'd and it will be one of the highlights to my video, ECM and all. Oh and I have enjoyed selling off all the faction loot. So far I have made over 600mil. isk. GF, Rob HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! As much as I hate ECM, I think this is the funniest thing ever. Good going Robimus! - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Robimus	Posted - 2006.11.14 03:46:00 - [73] You know, you guys all cry about using ecm. Why? because you all die from it. Lets say eve was real combat. Would you just stand their like we did 100 years ago and see who's line of guns hits harder? We eventualy figured out that war was about more than that and adopted tactics. Everyones is different. If you fight like we did 100's of years ago you are gonna die. I have played this game a long time an combat in the game is evolving just like it has in RL. Everyone is going to have to adapt or this whining is never gonna stop.
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.11.14 03:46:00 - [74] congrats all round
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.14 03:58:00 - [75] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 14/11/2006 04:00:53 Originally by: Robimus You know, you guys all cry about using ecm. Why? because you all die from it. Lets say eve was real combat. Would you just stand their like we did 100 years ago and see who's line of guns hits harder? We eventualy figured out that war was about more than that and adopted tactics. Everyones is different. If you fight like we did 100's of years ago you are gonna die. I have played this game a long time an combat in the game is evolving just like it has in RL. Everyone is going to have to adapt or this whining is never gonna stop. This has absolutely nothing to do with: a) A game being fun b) A game being based around skill/setup over randomness c) A game being balanced Just thought I'd point that out. Also, I suggest that CCP 'evolve' the forums so that every time a post is posted there is a random chance of you being deemed correct regardless of the content, quality, relevance or factuality of your post. Analogous situations can make things so much easier to understand. ---------- IBTL \o/
Bellum Eternus	Posted - 2006.11.14 04:06:00 - [76] Originally by: Robimus You know, you guys all cry about using ecm. Why? because you all die from it. Lets say eve was real combat. Would you just stand their like we did 100 years ago and see who's line of guns hits harder? We eventualy figured out that war was about more than that and adopted tactics. Everyones is different. If you fight like we did 100's of years ago you are gonna die. I have played this game a long time an combat in the game is evolving just like it has in RL. Everyone is going to have to adapt or this whining is never gonna stop. Know what? You're right. I'm skilling up for a Scorpion and then maxing out all my ECM skills. In eve, and especially in Kali, ECM will still win every fight. Yes, it's cheap and cowardly, offering the opponent no chance of success, knowing the fight is over before it begins. But that's what "adapting" is all about isn't it? Jumping on the bandwagon, using the cheapest tactics possible to kill your enemy? Log off tactics, ECM, stabs etc. ECCM is indeed useless as it has been proven that the best defence against ECM is more ECM. So why not just give up on everything else, "adapt" and jump on the ECM bandwagon and sit around jamming everyone until we rot. It's the worst, most boring form of combat in Eve. There is no skill involved, no ship managment, no anything. So the bottom line is to be an ECM wh#re like everyone else and submit to the fact that it's pointless to do otherwise. In that respect, it's pretty pointless flying a faction battleship, as their sensor strength isn't much higher than anyone elses, and I don't see any faction ships with EW bonuses. Enjoy the ISK, tbh I could care less about the ISK. I have plenty. It's just the way that the fight was won, not the end result that is disappointing. Gone are the days when firepower and armor mean anything. Embrace the ECM, the NOS, the logoffs. Am I the only one that thinks this isn't an appealing future for PVP? ----------------------------------------------- "I said ENGLISH MOTHER******, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!?!?!" - Samuel L Jackson, Pulp Fiction
Anti Protagonist Gallente Archron Dusyfe Industries	Posted - 2006.11.14 04:13:00 - [77] Originally by: murder one Am I the only one that thinks this isn't an appealing future for PVP? Actually, it sounds more interesting than sitting off a gate that you know people will be coming through to do COSMOS missions and sniping them, but maybe that's just me.
Goldie Locks	Posted - 2006.11.14 04:13:00 - [78] Edited by: Goldie Locks on 14/11/2006 04:15:32 1
Robimus	Posted - 2006.11.14 04:16:00 - [79] Edited by: Robimus on 14/11/2006 04:17:18 Edited by: Robimus on 14/11/2006 04:16:54 Aw, your still upset about our encounter? How about that deathmail, are you gonna forward it to me? I know better that to fight a vindicator with a Megat. If I had a Vindicator or navy thron I would have fought it out like a slugfest, and would have won. You can cry about ecm all you want, but all its gonna do is ruin the game for you.
Joran Dusyfe Gallente Archron Dusyfe Industries	Posted - 2006.11.14 04:31:00 - [80] Firstly, I applaud Rob. He used his brain, his skills, and the knowledge that you thought you would never have to back down from him to defeat you. That is the objective here, pvp is war and in war there is a winner and a looser. You sir were the looser. I don't see the point of you even posting here as you say you don't care about the ISK, or the ship etc... You are just complaining because ECM is a nasty thorn when the tables were turned. And now you threaten to go train up Caldari so you can fly the only ECM Battleship in the game. Your argument about ECCM not working is bogus as well, you use an example where you are attacked by two ECM Cruisers and expect not to get jammed because you fitted 4 ECCM. Think about it. Those two cruisers can theoretically fit 12 jammers to use against you. Even if they only fitted 1/2 of their slots they would still jam you 80% of the time. That's their job. Look at the bonus "Special Ability: -5% bonus to ECM Target Jammer capacitor need and 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per skill level." DOH! No ship is invincible, and all battles are riddled with luck and chance. I don't care if it's RL or EVE. The bullet with your name on it will hit you at some point. At least in EVE you can recover. Stop whining and just move on. It's only a game right? Joran Dusyfe CEO Archron Dusyfe Industries Visit our website.

Bellum Eternus	Posted - 2006.11.14 04:35:00 - [81] Originally by: Robimus Edited by: Robimus on 14/11/2006 04:17:18 Edited by: Robimus on 14/11/2006 04:16:54 Aw, your still upset about our encounter? How about that deathmail, are you gonna forward it to me? I know better that to fight a vindicator with a Megat. If I had a Vindicator or navy thron I would have fought it out like a slugfest, and would have won. You can cry about ecm all you want, but all its gonna do is ruin the game for you. No, not really. I've adapted. I'm using ECM. Everything is great. I warp in, I ECM my target, it dies, rinse, repeat. Earlier a five man gank squad came in to kill my Mega with another Mega, two Ravens, a Rax and a Malediction. They left minus the Mega, the Rax and the Malediction, and I almost had one of the Ravens dead (fully T2 fitted with gistii tank) but had to warp out as the second Raven jammed me (again losing to ECM, nothing else). Kali will bring change, new challenges, new ideas to explore, and more ECM. Scanning will be improved, stabs are nerfed, and I'll have more opportunity to find targets after they log off to avoid being ECMed, er, I mean, combat. Frankly I think expressing anything on the forums is pointless as I feel that nothing anyone says really has any real impact upon the game itself. It's just becoming a waste of time and energy. ----------------------------------------------- "I said ENGLISH MOTHER******, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!?!?!" - Samuel L Jackson, Pulp Fiction
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A	Posted - 2006.11.14 13:07:00 - [82] Originally by: murder one Engage in a 1v1 with a Megathron with 1 racial jammer. Vindicator has 24 sensor strength. Then proceed to be jammed 4 times in a row. Statistical chance of actually being jammed 4 times in a row given the sensor strengh and known jammer strength: 1.9% The Mega having a racial ecm for your ships suggests that it was fitted specifically versus you. While you had a generic setup. As you said, even with this specific setup, the chance of jamming you 4 times in a row was lower than 2%, it does not seem unbalanced or overpowered. You just had bad luck, like everyone has sometimes. Our gang had a Falcon with 5x ecm failing 3 complete cycles on a Curse few weeks ago, calculate the chances of that. Sorry for your ship but why are you posting this and whining I don't get it.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.14 13:27:00 - [83] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 14/11/2006 13:29:09 Originally by: James Snowscoran Well you could argue that the lowslot eccm modules are kinda underpowered. But then, signal amplifiers are also kinda underpowered compared to sensor boosters . I can't help but feel only very limited amounts of sympathy over your being jammed only 50% of the time against 2 blackbirds...that means they'd need 4 blackbirds to jam you 75% of the time, and whenever you escape a single jam cycle in the mega, at least one of the blackbirds really should go down the drain from blaster and drone pounding. As a blackbird pilot this is 100% true. If a half decent pilot is fighting folks jamming him the first thing they need to do is get drones onto the jammers (especially blackbirds... they go down fast when rigged for jamming because they have little to no tank... you can't even put a decent armor tank on them.) PS: 2x Blackbirds is as many as 12 racial jammers aimed at you with both Cruiser skill bonuses to jammer strength AND player skill bonuses to jammer strength. I'm surprised they didn't jam you up even worse to be honest.
Sandra Tseng THE MISPHIT'S Kurai Komichi	Posted - 2006.11.14 13:41:00 - [84] Are you actually saying that 1.9% is too good? Do you want it to be even less likely??? Or even impossible to jam a vindicator?? just because you spent ove two billion isk on it??? hey - If something with a 1.9% chance happened to me I would go buy a lottery ticket. _ Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
Kaiu Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.14 13:43:00 - [85] In my experience ECCM can save you from that single Multi on a Pest etc, but race specific ECM = Jammed Doesn't the fact that you HAVE to fit an ECCM just to be combat viable encase ECM highlight how broke it is? I still say find an alternate EW mod for Caldari ____________________ MOGarmy
Buraken v2 Amarr Amarr Defence Initiative	Posted - 2006.11.14 13:45:00 - [86] Edited by: Buraken v2 on 14/11/2006 13:48:10 Originally by: murder one Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Originally by: murder one Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski All of EVE needed to know that. Seems Vindicator losses need alot of stories on this forum now, maybe farjung needs to give his fanboys a bit of training other than cleaning his pants of the drools when they watch his movies. I'm no fanboi. I'm just irked that a ship like a Vindicator can be lost to something that amounts to a statistical anomaly. There was less than a 2% chance of success on the other guy's part, yet it happened. It's just bad luck is all, isn't it? Chance isn't good game design. I don't know, maybe if you were so good at calculating your chances of getting jammed, you'd have noticed it didn't matter and fitted ECCM. Also, If you were any decent at keeping your own killboards updated, i could probably pick on your setup. Why does everyone keep bringing up ECCM? It doesn't work. It never has. ECM is always more effective than ECCM. Why bring it up? BWahaha, clueless :) ECCM ♥, or maybe you really are just very unlucky, who knows. "ECM completely negates a ships ability to do anything, corret?" Not correct. :]. Quote: Mail from: Houvire Takaerne 2006.06.06 19:25 Our research has been fruity. If you're interested, I believe I have found what might be a banana in the corner of my office draw.
Ki An Gallente Ghouls	Posted - 2006.11.14 14:21:00 - [87] The problem as I see it with ECM in it's current state - much as Murder One pointed out - is that it's best counter is ECM of your own; not ECCM. After all, what does ECCM really give your ship in terms of bonuses in combat EXCEPT from lessening the chance of you being jammed? What bonuses does ECM give you in combat WHILE lessening the chance of you being jammed? In a small scale engagement it's nowadays more or less a question of locking first and ECMing, hoping you get a cycle in before your opponent does. If you do get it you'll not only not get jammed, but you have rendered your opponent unable to attack you, giving you time to take out his drones, or maybe even his ship. If a comparison should be made, think of WCS vs Scrambler. Scrambler has points, and if you have more points on your opponent than he has WCSs, he isn't going anywhere. At the same time, if he has fitted more WCSs than you have points, he will be able to get away. These two modules counter each other perfectly, as there is no chance involved. (Let's not get into the discussion about WCSs getting nerfed, because that really has nothing to do with this discussion.) In conclusion, while ECCM grants you an increased chance of staying un-jammed, it has no other qualities and is therefore less useful than actually fitting an ECM yourself. I think this is unbalanced, and would like to see change. However, it is unlikely to happen unless Kali messes up the balance even more (as seems to be the case) and more people complain. Right now, I fit a multispectral on all my BSs, as it's really the best defence against ECM. /Ki
Blue Dice Gallente The KittyCat Crew	Posted - 2006.11.14 14:27:00 - [88] Originally by: murder one Shortened something that amounts to a statistical anomaly. There was less than a 2% chance of success on the other guy's part, yet it happened.. Seeing form that you didnt even learn much about statistics, probability and 95% ranges , as I would say that if the risks of it happening beeing 2% is a lot! So either take those risks, or prepare for them. Short: It's as you say, you took the risks of 2% and it got you, so dont whine.
Mangold Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:37:00 - [89] Originally by: Trem Sinval The numbers, Mr. Sulu! Crappiest racial jammer: 6. Vindi sensors: 24. Chance to jam (any cycle): 6/24, 1/4, 25% Chance to jam 4 consecutive times: (1/4)^4 = 0.39% chance ----- - Trem Erm, your calculations are not correct. Running 4 jammers on a single target (with your numbers) will give a 68% chance of jamming every time. That is the same as a 32% chance of failure. Fitting a ECCM (60% added sensor strength) will change that to 49% chance of successful jam i e 51% chance of failure.
AsfALT Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:58:00 - [90] There is this great story about 2 battleships fighting in ww2 when one of them was sunk due to one single porjectile that landed it's magazine bay. HMM IT MUST BE IMPOSIBLE THAT A VERY GOOD SHIP CAN BE LOST TO A STATISTICAL ANOMALY!!! (irony) Statistical anomalyes do happen. Such is life...



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