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CCP Delegate Zero
C C P C C P Alliance
201
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Posted - 2015.05.20 20:46:24 -
[1] - Quote
As part of the ongoing module tiericide efforts we are making some consolidation and balance changes to armor plates and shield extenders.
In general the principles being followed are as for module tiericide as a whole:
Goals of Module Tiericide
- Reduce unnecessary complexity
- Provide meaningful options within the module set
Specifically the pattern of changes for both armor plates and shield extenders aims to:
- Remove the clearly superfluous '50mm' and micro' size categories.
- Consolidate 'Named' modules from meta levels 1-4 into two variants within meta level 1 - a 'compact' variant and a 'restrained' variant.
- Maintain the general positioning and power level of Tech II variants in the families.
- Place 'Storyline' variants in a place that is somewhere between the 'compact' and Tech II variants in terms of relevant stats.
- Significantly enhance the appeal of 'Faction' variants with substantial relative easing of fitting and increases in bonuses, while maintaining relatively low penalties.
- Establish diversity within the 'Faction' variants by adjusting stats in broadly in line with thematic notes as far as available tuning allows.
The case for removing the 50mm plates and micro extenders respectively was fairly clear. It also seemed reasonable to double up the HP bonus of small shield extenders to open up more use cases for them compared with medium extenders. The case of plate size groupings is more complicated due to the greater number of options that exist. There is an argument that 100mm plates remain something of an oddity but for this pass we have decided to eliminate the obviously subpar options represented by 50mm and micro modules and see how matters develop.
Change Sheets
Rather than blast a series of densely packed numbers at you in text form, the changes can be viewed in the following sheets:
Armor Plates Module Tiericide
Shield Extender Module Tiericide
Consequences of Consolidation Changes
Some merging of modules will take place as a result of these changes.
All existing 50mm plates will be changed into a special 'Storyline' 100mm plate designed to be very low fitting, low bonus, low penalty. The same will hold true of Micro shield extenders, as they will merge into a Small extender following a similar stat profile.
In terms of 'Named' modules, the 'Reinforced Nanofiber Plates' range will merge into the 'Crystalline Carbonide Restrained Plates'. Likewise, the 'Reinforced Titanium Plates' will merge into the 'Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates'.
With shield extenders this process is mirrored by the merger of 'Subordinate Screen Stabilizers' into 'F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extenders', and the merger of 'Supplemental Barrier Emitters' into 'Azeotropic Restrained Shield Extenders'.
Aspects of naming have necessarily changed to reflect the changes, with the balance of flavor and information in naming conventions that has been settled on with previous sets of module tiericide changes.
As a reminder the meta module signifiers used for these changes are:
- Compact: lower fitting requirements
- Restrained: lower penalties on use
The sources of modules will remain the same in terms of loot drops, LP stores and so on.
Release Plan
These changes are planned for the June 2nd release and are currently available to play around with on the Singularity test server.
Please let us have your feedback or questions regarding these planned changes.
CCP Delegate Zero | Game Designer | @CCPDelegateZero
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
701
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Posted - 2015.05.20 20:59:08 -
[2] - Quote
Generally like the changes to the shield extenders, I would like the HP/sig ratio looked at closely.
T2 LSE has 104 HP/sig RF LSE has 137.5 HP/sig
T2 MSE has 157HP/sig RF MSE has 240HP/sig
T2 SSE has 260HP/sig RF SSE has 550HP/sig Thukker has infinite!
Seeing as sig radius is a MASSIVE factor in how well many minmatar ships tank and how they are generally in a bad spot currently, giving a bit more work on that would be nice.
Also, Good job on giving us meta modules which make for interesting choices on these now, and making the faction flavorful enough to merit work getting the specific faction's mod without making any of them entirely OP (other than maybe thukker SSE)
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
13045
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Posted - 2015.05.20 21:21:06 -
[3] - Quote
What is the point of having Meta levels at all, if you're just going to skip huge sections of them?
It goes from 0, to two kinds of 1, to 5. That makes less sense than what currently exists.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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BugraT WarheaD
168
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Posted - 2015.05.20 21:35:28 -
[4] - Quote
owwwwwww sweat ! |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
67
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Posted - 2015.05.20 21:36:12 -
[5] - Quote
Thanks for releasing the official statement. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1169
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Posted - 2015.05.20 21:53:18 -
[6] - Quote
interesting changes, certainly like the options of restrained and compact, but as ever i remain unconvinced by the tiny reductions to fittings on the compact ones. 100mm plates, are they actually used much though? .. would like too see some stats on the usages of the different sizes and what ship sizes they are used on most.
also kind of curious as too adding a larger battleship sized plate, maybe a 2200mm and what the thoughts on this is?
Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3300
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Posted - 2015.05.20 22:00:14 -
[7] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:What is the point of having Meta levels at all, if you're just going to skip huge sections of them?
It goes from 0, to two kinds of 1, to 5. That makes less sense than what currently exists.
i guess once all mods are balanced ccp will just compact the meta levels and remove all empty spots or remove the notion of meta all together.
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Lochiel
Raising the Bar Of Sound Mind
22
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Posted - 2015.05.20 22:06:41 -
[8] - Quote
Request to change the naming pattern to Nmm [Restrained|Compact] [Flavor Name] Plates
So that when I search for "200mm Restrained" I get exactly the module I was looking for? |
Circumstantial Evidence
179
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Posted - 2015.05.20 22:11:48 -
[9] - Quote
Will BPC / BPO's for 50mm plates be converted to Storyline BPO, or regular 100mm BPO? |
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
401
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Posted - 2015.05.20 22:21:06 -
[10] - Quote
Armor plates really seem to have gotten the shaft here...
Reduced max tank on all rolled tungsten plates as well as on 800mm/1600mm T2 plates. Small shield extender gives comparable tank to a 200mm plate with a third of the fitting requirements.
Can you just confirm that this was an intention of the changes and clarify the reasoning behind this? |
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Mizhir
Matari Exodus The Camel Empire
74385
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Posted - 2015.05.20 22:37:07 -
[11] - Quote
Is there any reasons why there is a large variety on the different faction plates while faction shield extenders provide the same HP boost?
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:What is the point of having Meta levels at all, if you're just going to skip huge sections of them?
It goes from 0, to two kinds of 1, to 5. That makes less sense than what currently exists.
The new system is way better. The old meta stuff was just only meta 4 being used (and sometimes meta 3 if meta 4 is expensive) and then the rest of it was trash. Now there are different choices. LIke for MWD you can pick between better cap, easier fitting or lower sig bloom.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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probag Bear
Xiong Offices
69
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Posted - 2015.05.20 22:41:07 -
[12] - Quote
Please reconsider the unsurpassable nerf to " 'Bailey' 1600mm Steel Plates ".
They are currently a sub-par, ~600mil, version of normal 1600mm Steel Plates. As killmail data shows, they are nearly completely unused; the number of ships lost using this particular module is on the order of magnitude of a dozen a year.
What killmail data does not show is the one single fit that fuels nearly 100% of the demand for 'Bailey' 1600mm Steel Plates: the dual-plated, dual-ENAM, dual-trimarked, full slave linked Rapier. The reason it does not show up on killboards is because it is not used by people who engage into fights they would lose; only smart people use this fit, so there are close to no losses.
The dual-plated, dual-ENAM, dual-trimarked, full slave Rapier is literally the only ship fitting that makes use of this module. With your proposed PWG change to the module, you are making impossible roughly all of the ships flown with this module fit. And given the extremely high price of the module, there will be no fit to step up to the plate and make this module again.
tl;dr: Looking at historical market and kill-mail data, by nerfing 'Bailey' 1600mm Steel Plates, you are making the one and only common fit that uses this module impossible, and thus eliminating ~98.5% of the total demand for the module. Given its enormous price and mediocre new stats, there will be no fit on any ship at all that this module will be worth using on. It will go from one of the very few Storyline modules to have a dominant niche to another Storyline module that is never, ever, used. |
Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
547
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Posted - 2015.05.20 22:44:20 -
[13] - Quote
I have a question in regards to COSMOS/Storyline Faction Plates and Extenders, why are the fitting requirements for these being increased and in several instances being harder to fit than the 'compact' meta variants. I thought that Storyline/Cosmos was supposed to have the best fitting requirements?
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Jack Hayson
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
164
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Posted - 2015.05.20 22:48:17 -
[14] - Quote
It's nice that faction plates finally become useful, but why the nerf to the commonly used T2 and meta 4 plates? Do you feel that armor buffer tanking is too strong? |
Arla Sarain
452
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Posted - 2015.05.20 22:57:25 -
[15] - Quote
Small shield extenders get double HP over 100mm plates. 200mm plates have roughly same HP but 10PG or more and slows the ship down.
Ships that will be fitting these modules won't prefer either really, just that PG is more valuable on small ships. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1170
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:01:53 -
[16] - Quote
on faction extenders.
caldari - should have the highest HP .. shield HP is a caldari specialty Republic Fleet - lower sig pen makes more sense then thukker having it Thukker - give it the lowest fittings
Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3414
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:06:37 -
[17] - Quote
Ive always wondered how sufficient armor to cover a Battleship with 1.6 meters of steel all fits into a 50 cu m package. The armor thicknesses seem to be just so huge!
Possible change to make it all make more sense: Drop a zero. 10mm, 20mm, 40mm, 80mm and 160mm plates.
Also: Do you have any idea of the usefulness of the other meta levels? It seems odd to just have them abandoned.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Firia O'Flame
Golgotha Mining and Freight
20
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:07:03 -
[18] - Quote
Lochiel wrote:Request to change the naming pattern to Nmm [Restrained|Compact] [Flavor Name] Plates
So that when I search for "200mm Restrained" I get exactly the module I was looking for?
I support this. Simple search methods are a benefit. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2852
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:12:34 -
[19] - Quote
So, what will happen to the 50mm reinforced steel plate BPOs and the micro shield extender BPOs?
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
147
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:24:54 -
[20] - Quote
Looks like faction plates will be a thing again. |
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Ripard Teg
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1035
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:30:18 -
[21] - Quote
Guys! You have a serious opportunity here to make Small Shield Extenders not useless! Please don't let it go by!
I have a dream. It is not a big dream. It is a small dream. In my dream, Small Shield Extenders are a good option for frigates and Medium Shield Extenders are a good option for cruisers. Must I abandon my dream?
aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
148
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:47:01 -
[22] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:Guys! You have a serious opportunity here to make Small Shield Extenders not useless! Please don't let it go by!
I have a dream. It is not a big dream. It is a small dream. In my dream, Small Shield Extenders are a good option for frigates and Medium Shield Extenders are a good option for cruisers. Must I abandon my dream? Is this just a sneaky way of saying you want x-large shield extenders? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1080
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:48:50 -
[23] - Quote
I'd drop 100mm plates, they're never worth a slot. it's hard enough finding a use for 200mms (and 800mms). instead of fitting a small plate with tank rigs, it's often better and faster to use ACRs and a big plate. small plate gank fits probably will still be bad compared to hull tank fits, because of hull tanks being stupid (capless, omni resist, 0 pg, no penalty buffer tank, just why). so yeah, the high bang:buck of ancillary armour reps, and more recently bulkhead rigs, has gotten me to drop the 200mm plates from all my frigate fits except mwd + plate gang fits. I used to solo with AAR + 200mm plate fits, but swapping the plate for an adaptive nano plating typically improved the total ehp when factoring in the AAR, while also being easier fitting and having no mass increase.
I'm just going to guess that small extenders aren't going to be very useful even with that huge buff. midslots are life. people are armour tanking ships that have 5 mids and 2 lows because webs and ewar are so high value. I hope you guys see that this is bad, rather than celebrating it as some player driven emergent sandbox something something.
those restrained extenders seem to have much more lenient penalties than the restrained plates. currently the armour/shield rigs already add as much or more penalty than the actual plates/extenders. I guess they'll be way more after this. I'd like it if tank rigs were much lower impact, but with less crippling penalties. |
Aliventi
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
858
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:50:20 -
[24] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Ripard Teg wrote:Guys! You have a serious opportunity here to make Small Shield Extenders not useless! Please don't let it go by!
I have a dream. It is not a big dream. It is a small dream. In my dream, Small Shield Extenders are a good option for frigates and Medium Shield Extenders are a good option for cruisers. Must I abandon my dream? Is this just a sneaky way of saying you want x-large shield extenders? First, +1 to making small shield extenders frigate sized and medium shield extender designed for cruisers.
If that isn't going to happen (which it totally should!) XL Shield Extenders would be a fantastic idea so Shield BS don't always have to fit 2 large shield extenders. |
Aliventi
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
858
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:53:01 -
[25] - Quote
Also, +1 to getting rid of 100mm plates.
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Circumstantial Evidence
179
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Posted - 2015.05.20 23:55:27 -
[26] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:Guys! You have a serious opportunity here to make Small Shield Extenders not useless! Please don't let it go by!
I have a dream. It is not a big dream. It is a small dream. In my dream, Small Shield Extenders are a good option for frigates and Medium Shield Extenders are a good option for cruisers. Must I abandon my dream? Hmm. Do you mean to suggest a complete rethink, so that small parts only fit on small ships, or just additional thought on the stats for extenders?
When I started EVE, I thought small parts went on small ships. After a while, I discovered the part size class names (S/M/L) had little to do with what ship size class they fit on. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
67
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Posted - 2015.05.21 00:01:57 -
[27] - Quote
I'd be hesitant to go any larger than LSE's and 1600mms. Battleships already come equipped with massive tanks built into the ships base stats, allowing even larger buffers would have a big change on the current meta.
TrouserDeagle wrote:I'd drop 100mm plates, they're never worth a slot. it's hard enough finding a use for 200mms (and 800mms). instead of fitting a small plate with tank rigs, it's often better and faster to use ACRs and a big plate. small plate gank fits probably will still be bad compared to hull tank fits, because of hull tanks being stupid (capless, omni resist, 0 pg, no penalty buffer tank, just why). so yeah, the high bang:buck of ancillary armour reps, and more recently bulkhead rigs, has gotten me to drop the 200mm plates from all my frigate fits except mwd + plate gang fits. I used to solo with AAR + 200mm plate fits, but swapping the plate for an adaptive nano plating typically improved the total ehp when factoring in the AAR, while also being easier fitting and having no mass increase.
I'm just going to guess that small extenders aren't going to be very useful even with that huge buff. midslots are life. people are armour tanking ships that have 5 mids and 2 lows because webs and ewar are so high value. I hope you guys see that this is bad, rather than celebrating it as some player driven emergent sandbox something something.
those restrained extenders seem to have much more lenient penalties than the restrained plates. currently the armour/shield rigs already add as much or more penalty than the actual plates/extenders. I guess they'll be way more after this. I'd like it if tank rigs were much lower impact, but with less crippling penalties.
I agree with this. Plates are overshadowed, 200mm or 800mm rarely get used in any of my fittings, and 100mm are non existant. Ancillary reppers have made this situation even more severe. |
Ripard Teg
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1035
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Posted - 2015.05.21 00:26:37 -
[28] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Ripard Teg wrote:Guys! You have a serious opportunity here to make Small Shield Extenders not useless! Please don't let it go by!
I have a dream. It is not a big dream. It is a small dream. In my dream, Small Shield Extenders are a good option for frigates and Medium Shield Extenders are a good option for cruisers. Must I abandon my dream? Is this just a sneaky way of saying you want x-large shield extenders? If CCP really wants to avoid XLSEs, there are ways around it, such as narrowing the gap a little between the sizes. The SSE1 could be given the MSE1's fitting requirements and give +900 shield. The MSE1 could be given the LSE1's fitting requirements and give +1800 shield. And the LSE1 could require say 400 grid and give +2700 shield. That would better differentiate the sizes. As it is, nobody is going to continue to use the SSE. Twice **** is still ****.
That said, I don't think it would be too imbalancing to add an XLSE1 as long as the fitting requirements were balanced. Say 1200 grid required, giving +3600 shield. Shield tanking on the high end is underpowered compared to armor tanking. A lot of battleships could absorb such a module without having to change much. Those that couldn't (hello, Minmatar!) would have to make some fitting choices. More choice is nearly always a good thing.
aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins
113
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Posted - 2015.05.21 00:34:54 -
[29] - Quote
those Small Shield Extender would be game changing in Fit. they give more CPU but less PG plus less sig radius when fit 2 of those module vs their counterpart Medium Who know, maybe we can see tanky Corax with 2 Small Extender |
Ripard Teg
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1036
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Posted - 2015.05.21 00:45:24 -
[30] - Quote
unidenify wrote:Who know, maybe we can see tanky Corax with 2 Small Extender Very few people are going to give up a precious mid to do this. Besides, as it is a MSE Corax has a sig of 78m, a third of most medium guns. It doesn't really need the help and the frigs that might double SSE need it even less.
The only place you'll see SSEs is where we see them now: badly-fit industrials and barges.
aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
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