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Dukath
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Posted - 2003.11.10 21:31:00 -
[1]
Well the title says it all, cruise missiles and torpedos are being used a lot right now, almost to the point that they are the main weapon.
Now this on its own is not much of a problem but the splash damage of the missiles do in fact make drones completely useless. Don't ever think of deploying drones when there are more than 4 torpedos in space because you will lose them all in a matter of seconds. In fact using drones against anyone with missile launchers that can carry torpedos is asking for them to be killed in seconds.
Another observation i have to make is that the same missiles if used correctly make a warp core stabiliser and scrambler useless too, well not useless in general but the spawn pirates seem to have stopped using scramblers and rely on missiles now to prevent the target from warping out. A string of missiles will rock the ship out of alignment and you will never be able to warp out. If the opponent has enough launchers he can time them so you will never kick in. (having defenders or a smartbomb does not help since you cannot use them if your warp drive is active)
I know missiles needed a boost but i do feel that they are a bit overpowered at the moment.
A suggestion could be to have a much larger turn radius for the cruise and torpedos. With the large speed they have i don't think they should be able to turn 180 degrees in a circle of less than a km, which they can do right after they are launched. Giving them a faster initial speed might do the trick though since they are long range weapons.
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Dreez
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Posted - 2003.11.11 11:23:00 -
[2]
Missiles are not overpowered, its just that
freakin CCP has not yet made it possible
to "abort warp" when your are getting stuck.
This function however are "said" to be
installed in this next patch - whenever
it comes  .
'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
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John McCreedy
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Posted - 2003.11.11 13:38:00 -
[3]
I think drones will come back in to use once these Elite/Hybrid Frigates are launched. Conventional weapons I hear will have a hard time tracking them so drones might well be the best way to attack them.
Make a difference
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Stepping Razor
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Posted - 2003.11.11 14:45:00 -
[4]
Heavy Drones also don't keep at a logical range. Considering that they have harsher mineral requirements than a lvl 3 frigate, they should be orbitting their targets max frigate range (5-10 KM), ie. out of smartbomb and torpedo splash range).
Just my 2 cents.
Razor
 Originally by: Bonaventure Phaidon
CCP is the best at at least three things:
1. Really, really fun gameplay
2. Good forum presence
3. Inventing new and exciting ways to bring about in-game catacly
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.11 15:18:00 -
[5]
I agree with Stepping Razor. The best way to deal with the problem would be to increase drones orbiting range so that they are outside the splash radius of torpedos. 2.5km should be enough.
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Vangelis
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Posted - 2003.11.11 18:00:00 -
[6]
drones (or perhaps special defence drones)should maybe attempt to knock out missles automatically before they hit the ship...i mean if we have patriot missles that knock out incomming missles in the year 2003 AD then damn its what 28000 AD and we cant defend against incomming missles??
Also drones should have a longer attack range 20km is far to short of a distance to launch drones.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.11 20:34:00 -
[7]
Max range of 5-10k wouldn't be as a good idea, since SR BS weapons will be quite able to pick them off there.
And about sending heavy drones from more than 20k - keep in mind the speed of the heavies: 300-450ms. To cover a distance of 40 km they need 90-130 seconds - by that time a fight is usually over.
free speech not allowed here |
knifee
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Posted - 2003.11.12 00:23:00 -
[8]
doesn't really matter what range they orbit at tbh... if u have drones vs torps the drones are gonna lose.... the only real use for them is to deploy them all and hope that whoever is shooting at u uses a voley of misiles to kill all your drones, and give u time to align and warp
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.12 16:40:00 -
[9]
Changing the orbit distance would matter because you would be able to use drones in conjunction with missiles. You would also be able to launch drones without them being instantly destroyed if you are under a constant torp barrage.
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Draka
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Posted - 2003.11.12 20:34:00 -
[10]
Ummmmm ... Defenders?
CEO
The Cinnaban Order
"Dedicated to a Free Minmatar Republic" |
Morin
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Posted - 2003.11.12 20:43:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Ummmmm ... Defenders?
It's not only about incoming missiles. It would be nice to fire missiles at a target your drones are orbitting.
Or, more likely, let scorps/ravens in your fleet not blow up our fine dom's drones...
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.12 20:53:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Quote:
Ummmmm ... Defenders?
It's not only about incoming missiles. It would be nice to fire missiles at a target your drones are orbitting.
Or, more likely, let scorps/ravens in your fleet not blow up our fine dom's drones...
Exactly. ;)
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Kaylon Syi
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Posted - 2003.11.12 20:58:00 -
[13]
Drones are Gall main weapon of attack with their Hybrids. Missile and Torps are Caldari and Minm Methods of main attack. The Tyhphoon has a bigger Drone bay to compliment its launchers when they run out... The Mega and Apoc have launcheres to compliment their Turrets and the Mega has a 4 more drones thatn a few lvl 2 bs becasue they are Gal.
Sounds like your fleet tactics are faulty not the drones. Maybe your Dom should carry inexpensive Hammerheads and infiltrators in combat and as cannon fodder and then if they get shot down... send in another wave.... you can hold 55 ( bs lvl 2 ) of them and it wouldn't cost you a whole lot. Or you could use them for defense and stick them in a Thorax and orbit your Ravens with them... provide a sycronized cover for that ship from enemy torps and cruise... move away from teh ship when it needs to fire torps and misssiles... move in teh path of the missiles torps with your orbiting drones.
Just some of the things you can do if you think out the box instead of wanting CCP to fix everything. Im sure you can find more things to do as I am only stating obvious ( albeit not the best ) things drones are good for besides using heavies for primary combat.
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.12 21:11:00 -
[14]
Edited by: ClawHammer III on 12/11/2003 21:14:01
Nice post but what does that have to do with missiles decimating drones when they are orbiting.
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CLONE 9
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Posted - 2003.11.12 22:01:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Well the title says it all, cruise missiles and torpedos are being used a lot right now, almost to the point that they are the main weapon.
Now this on its own is not much of a problem but the splash damage of the missiles do in fact make drones completely useless. Don't ever think of deploying drones when there are more than 4 torpedos in space because you will lose them all in a matter of seconds. In fact using drones against anyone with missile launchers that can carry torpedos is asking for them to be killed in seconds.
Another observation i have to make is that the same missiles if used correctly make a warp core stabiliser and scrambler useless too, well not useless in general but the spawn pirates seem to have stopped using scramblers and rely on missiles now to prevent the target from warping out. A string of missiles will rock the ship out of alignment and you will never be able to warp out. If the opponent has enough launchers he can time them so you will never kick in. (having defenders or a smartbomb does not help since you cannot use them if your warp drive is active)
I know missiles needed a boost but i do feel that they are a bit overpowered at the moment.
A suggestion could be to have a much larger turn radius for the cruise and torpedos. With the large speed they have i don't think they should be able to turn 180 degrees in a circle of less than a km, which they can do right after they are launched. Giving them a faster initial speed might do the trick though since they are long range weapons.
I have a better idea - leave the torps and missles alone and live with the fact that some things you buy/make in this game are going to be blown up.
Drones work well against some things and it's nice to know that they are crap against other things. This game already has too much drone bias.
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.13 04:22:00 -
[16]
You don't fly frigates by any chance?
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Draka
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Posted - 2003.11.13 06:03:00 -
[17]
Actually - I fire missiles and use long-range guns for damage over 20KM, and Drones with short-range guns within that range. I know that my Drones have a max limit of 20KM, so when an enemy (NPC) gets within that range, I stop firing missiles at it and sic the Drones on it. The weapons are supposed to supplement each other, not necessarily work at the same time.
The comment about the ships being designed to be used in Squadrons with each doing its assigned duties also applies. The emphasis on one-on-one fights is NOT what they were designed to do in anything above certain Frigate sizes.
CEO
The Cinnaban Order
"Dedicated to a Free Minmatar Republic" |
kwoodward
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Posted - 2003.11.13 12:58:00 -
[18]
Edited by: kwoodward on 13/11/2003 13:02:00
AS a gal player rely on drones a lot and an orbit at option would be the solution of missiles vs drones.
They should be equal in power / strengh.
Man if galente vs caladri fought at the minute galente would loose bad, i thought we were suposed to be equal super powers 
missiles should be left as they are (dangerous) and drones should be made to orbit at just out of blast radius, also a attack pattern would make things fairer so you could spread the drones as they approach so that they dont all die at once :)
Meow! |
Kaylon Syi
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Posted - 2003.11.13 20:09:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Edited by: ClawHammer III on 12/11/2003 21:14:01
Nice post but what does that have to do with missiles decimating drones when they are orbiting.
So what is the problem with that? Use it to your advantage instead of asking CCP to fix it. The reason why Tempests, Scorpions and Ravens don't have big drone bays are because its a missile boat. In fact the only ship in the game that has both in great quantity is a Typhoon and that is a sheer predator. So I think orbiting drones being decimated by missiles is a balance of missile boats not having drone space. AS well drones being like frigates under your command.
My whole post is for people to think outside the box instead of adding ideas that would imbalance the game to appease the players. Got enuff of that already.
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.13 22:58:00 -
[20]
Edited by: ClawHammer III on 13/11/2003 23:14:27
How the hell are drone users supposed to use that to thier advantage?
Yey, my drones are geting slaughtered by friendly missles... yeah that really helps
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Gyrn Fzirth
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Posted - 2003.11.14 02:44:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Edited by: ClawHammer III on 13/11/2003 23:14:27
How the hell are drone users supposed to use that to thier advantage?
Yey, my drones are geting slaughtered by friendly missles... yeah that really helps
wow. Um. Easily?
Just don't fire your missiles on the target your drones are orbiting, or fire youre missiles before your drones get into the dreaded "column of One Torp Could Blow Us All To Hell" on their way to your target. Just be smart about it.
===============
Killboard: http://www.celeskills.com
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.14 05:39:00 -
[22]
Some of you just don't seem to get it... In group battles your drones will be destroyed by your own fleet if any of your mates use missiles.
That is why drone orbit distance needs to be changed. I don't care if the enemy targets my drones and takes them out the real problem is friendlys taking them out.
Increasing the orbit distance may also keep them from all being destroyed 2 torpedoes because they will be farther apart when they start moving in.
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Draka
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Posted - 2003.11.14 10:05:00 -
[23]
Fleet theory needs to be worked out ahead of time between you and your Corporation mates - and then use a voicecomm system to keep events under control. Missiles and Drones should not be mixed - the missile ships should be engaging at range, and withdrawing when the enemy fleet closes. Drones are a short-to-medium weapon (currently 20KM max) and should be held in close to defend the Fleet. Once an enemy gets within 20KM of your ships, all missile ships should be told to cease firing on that ship, and the Drones sent in.
Doctrine, prior training, and Command and Control measures are what separates the single ship action from Fleet actions.
It also wouldn't hurt to try and use ships from the same Empire in the way they were designed to be used together, instead of everyone trying to have the "best" ship irregardless of Fleet theory and design and instead as measured by single engagements, and then throwing them together at the last minute.
CEO
The Cinnaban Order
"Dedicated to a Free Minmatar Republic" |
Dukath
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Posted - 2003.11.14 11:00:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Fleet theory needs to be worked out ahead of time between you and your Corporation mates - and then use a voicecomm system to keep events under control. Missiles and Drones should not be mixed - the missile ships should be engaging at range, and withdrawing when the enemy fleet closes. Drones are a short-to-medium weapon (currently 20KM max) and should be held in close to defend the Fleet. Once an enemy gets within 20KM of your ships, all missile ships should be told to cease firing on that ship, and the Drones sent in.
Doctrine, prior training, and Command and Control measures are what separates the single ship action from Fleet actions.
It also wouldn't hurt to try and use ships from the same Empire in the way they were designed to be used together, instead of everyone trying to have the "best" ship irregardless of Fleet theory and design and instead as measured by single engagements, and then throwing them together at the last minute.
Any fleet that spreads out fire will lose to a fleet that concentrates fire. Assuming a 5 vs 5. Your fleet targets multiple ships we target one ship. After 5 seconds we have 3 lightly damaged ships, you have 4 people left. Afetr 10 seconds we might have 2 ships going in armor you have 3 ships left. 15 seconds its 1 heavily damaged ship while you have 2 people left. 20 seconds its 5 vs 1 and then you quickly die without having taken out a single ship of ours.
Since damaged ships don't lose combat efficiency you need to destroy the enemy ship to lower their firepower. If you spread out your own firepower you increase the time before you kill the first enemy.
Your theory might be a nice roleplaying theory but it doesn't work in 'real' battles
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Draka
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Posted - 2003.11.14 18:42:00 -
[25]
I was not talking about or advocating speading out fires. I was talking about concentrating fires at their appropriate ranges and targets. Using voicecomms and having a single officer controlling the battle is PRECISELY how you control distribution of fires, one of the trickier problems in naval warfare.
My case is that all long range guns and missiles concentrate on assigned targets until those targets get within 20KM, at which point the missile and long range fires shift to a target outside that range while the Drones and medium/short range guns concentrate on the target within THEIR effective tactical radius.
As for the roleplay comment - I happen to believe that the Devs had a coherent Fleet theory developed for each Empire, and the ships will perform correctly within that theory. Problem is, to my knowledge (and unfortunately practice) no one is willing to actually try it - purchase, man, train and use such a Fleet with its assigned ships. Everyone wants to be the Battleship with the biggest guns, and no one wants to be the support ship.
One day I may get a chance to try out my theories - but not with the current JIP non-battles and the economic model that has everyone in Battleships, with anything else being seen as a poor cousin with the look and smell of "noob" or "not with it" associated with them.
CEO
The Cinnaban Order
"Dedicated to a Free Minmatar Republic" |
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