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Would this tactic be effective against "hyper dunking?"

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Damen Apol Fight The Blob 106	Posted - 2015.05.25 15:32:08 - [1] - Quote You're solo in a freighter or whatever industrial ship that can't allign fast enough. You get bumped like crazy and aggressed and can't log off. You log off anyway, your ship stays in space as the ganker continues to chew through your EHP. You log on to the same account with an alt in a logi ship, find where your bump-tackled ship is and rep it up. Until ganker either calls in more backup to beat your reps, suicides on your logi ship, or gives up. I'm partially wondering if having two ships/characters from the same account online in space would be considered and exploit of some sort? I'm also partially wondering if that would even work or if the ability to have multiple characters in space (albeit not under your control) from a single account has further ramifications.
Aquila Sagitta Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 623	Posted - 2015.05.25 15:39:54 - [2] - Quote Ganks generally happen very quickly. Your ship would be dead before you loaded grid with second account (assuming you were logged off where your freighter was tackled) Your ship also loses all bonuses when you log off cuting your ehp by up to 25% Blue-Fire Best Fire
Damen Apol Fight The Blob 106	Posted - 2015.05.25 15:46:45 - [3] - Quote Aquila Sagitta wrote: Ganks generally happen very quickly. Your ship would be dead before you loaded grid with second account (assuming you were logged off where your freighter was tackled) Your ship also loses all bonuses when you log off cuting your ehp by up to 25% Ah, I'm pretty unaware of such things obviously.
Jenshae Chiroptera 1589	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:06:31 - [4] - Quote Fly with an escort. Good scout + web alts. Web alts can also ECM. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Aralyn Cormallen Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 1118	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:12:09 - [5] - Quote Damen Apol wrote: Aquila Sagitta wrote: Ganks generally happen very quickly. Your ship would be dead before you loaded grid with second account (assuming you were logged off where your freighter was tackled) Your ship also loses all bonuses when you log off cuting your ehp by up to 25% Ah, I'm pretty unaware of such things obviously. I will correct Aquila though; in most cases yes, ganks happen quickly, but in your specific example (a hyperdunking), due to the warping around needed by the process, it can drag over several minutes, so in theory your tactic could work. And I know for a fact at least a couple of years ago (not from doing this, but a comical mistake) that you can log in a second character on the same account if the first is logged out but still in space (that moment when you undock to see your alt sitting in a bubble of the station ), but not sure if it would be deemed legal or an exploit to do so (I am not smart enough to see the clever loopholes such a tactic could create).
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 8629	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:20:28 - [6] - Quote The most effective tactic against hyper-dunking is to sell your hauler character and use the proceeds to pay for your transport needs. People like Red Frog are quite good at avoiding problems and are a reasonable price. Plus, they take the risk. All you do is fire them a couple of million ISKies, tell them where to pick up and drop off and then go have some fun doing anything but hauling. When the choice is between risking your ship and whatever it's carrying or tossing some guy a million a jump to run from Jita to Amarr and risking nothing, I know which I'd choose. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
000Hunter000 Missiles 'R' Us 40	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:38:43 - [7] - Quote Now a while ago there was another thread talking about bumping someones ship again and again. Now i do remember (a long time ago) it was considered griefing if u kept on bumping someone thus preventing them from going into warp (note that i don't mean bumping a wartarget so he can't align, but bumping a neutral target in hi sec.) I asked the same question then but I never got an answer from a dev. Offcourse maybe it's only griefing if u bump them and don't suicide gank them. IMO, atleast they should change the system so if u bump someone repeatedly u will get flagged to that person so they can shoot at you Atleast this way the bumper has a risk as well, i mean it's a sandbox right?
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 3428	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:51:19 - [8] - Quote In my opinion, that is a valid tactic. The only issue will be getting your alt to the system fast enough. Also, if you keep your alt stashed in the area where these activities happen, you can amuse yourself by being a white knight and repping anyone who is getting hyperdunked. Know a Frozen fan? Check this out Frozen fanfiction
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2427	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:56:08 - [9] - Quote Maybe try sending in a petition and find out. I can't imagine it as a total exploit since you can't be expected to wait until your character safe logs to log in somewhere else.
Kashadin Big Johnson's 68	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:04:58 - [10] - Quote By the nature of the hyperdunk, you wouldn't be able to get there in time to do anything. following along with a alt in a logi ship with webs could be a interesting way to go around it tho.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2427	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:14:04 - [11] - Quote Kashadin wrote: By the nature of the hyperdunk, you wouldn't be able to get there in time to do anything. following along with a alt in a logi ship with webs could be a interesting way to go around it tho. that depends. If i pre-position my logi in a system with most likelihood of a gank, and some tries to hyperdunk, I can definitely log in and warp to gate before I die. Unless of course I do something really stupid.
Shayla Sh'inlux Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition 67	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:04:43 - [12] - Quote Kashadin wrote: By the nature of the hyperdunk, you wouldn't be able to get there in time to do anything. following along with a alt in a logi ship with webs could be a interesting way to go around it tho. I think you don't quite know what hyperdunking is.
Kashadin Big Johnson's 68	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:09:26 - [13] - Quote I would assume it is a bump followed by a alpha gank, if not then it's not really all that hyper and this game is starting to go off into left field with its terms. Edit: Also I always thought that hyperdunks were more "suddenly supers" in a LS/NS fight than "HS gank"
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 13125	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:09:52 - [14] - Quote Damen Apol wrote: You log on to the same account with an alt in a logi ship, find where your bump-tackled ship is and rep it up. Until ganker either calls in more backup to beat your reps, suicides on your logi ship, or gives up. I'm almost positive you would be perma banned for doing that. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1833	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:10:29 - [15] - Quote Rowells wrote: Kashadin wrote: By the nature of the hyperdunk, you wouldn't be able to get there in time to do anything. following along with a alt in a logi ship with webs could be a interesting way to go around it tho. that depends. If i pre-position my logi in a system with most likelihood of a gank, and some tries to hyperdunk, I can definitely log in and warp to gate before I die. Unless of course I do something really stupid. Could you rep "yourself" and ECM the ganker with your alt enough time to deplete his ship stock? Since we are pulling crazy ideas ya know... Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Damen Apol wrote: You log on to the same account with an alt in a logi ship, find where your bump-tackled ship is and rep it up. Until ganker either calls in more backup to beat your reps, suicides on your logi ship, or gives up. I'm almost positive you would be perma banned for doing that. That is an interesting point being brought forward.
Kashadin Big Johnson's 68	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:12:42 - [16] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Damen Apol wrote: You log on to the same account with an alt in a logi ship, find where your bump-tackled ship is and rep it up. Until ganker either calls in more backup to beat your reps, suicides on your logi ship, or gives up. I'm almost positive you would be perma banned for doing that. Why? If the ship can be attacked it should be able to be defended, you are already making the choice to lose any benefits you get from skills to defend the ship when you swap over.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 13125	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:16:11 - [17] - Quote Kashadin wrote: Why? You really can't think of why? The whole "same account" part might cause a GM to raise his eyebrows. If you don't believe me, by all means, put in a ticket and ask. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Kashadin Big Johnson's 68	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:22:31 - [18] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Kashadin wrote: Why? You really can't think of why? The whole "same account" part might cause a GM to raise his eyebrows. If you don't believe me, by all means, put in a ticket and ask. My argument against that was in the post you quoted. If it is such a issue as to warrant banning a easy change would be to make any ships that belong to a toon on the same acct disappear as soon as another toon logs into the same acct, I'm sure gankers would love that idea.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1833	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:27:14 - [19] - Quote Kashadin wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Kashadin wrote: Why? You really can't think of why? The whole "same account" part might cause a GM to raise his eyebrows. If you don't believe me, by all means, put in a ticket and ask. My argument against that was in the post you quoted. If it is such a issue as to warrant banning a easy change would be to make any ships that belong to a toon on the same acct disappear as soon as another toon logs into the same acct, I'm sure gankers would love that idea. Not gonna happen. This isa perfect logoffski handed to you on a platter. Forcefully crash your cleint and log back on an alt to save any ships including but not limited to titans...
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 8631	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:39:26 - [20] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Kashadin wrote: Why? You really can't think of why? The whole "same account" part might cause a GM to raise his eyebrows. If you don't believe me, by all means, put in a ticket and ask. Who cares if it's the same acct. Only one character is logged in from the players perspective. The other character is essentially a ghost. Not logged in to the client and not controllable by the player. I have seen and have experienced hundreds of times logging in and seeing the character I or someone else just logged out because of a dump or just to switch characters still sitting there. Not my problem. And if CCP choose not to do something about it since forever, I will use it to my advantage. It will never be declared an exploit to have a ghost still in space because of an external force applied to that ship upon logging out. And since it's not an exploit, there will be no warning let alone a ban. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Kashadin Big Johnson's 68	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:51:51 - [21] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Kashadin wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Kashadin wrote: Why? You really can't think of why? The whole "same account" part might cause a GM to raise his eyebrows. If you don't believe me, by all means, put in a ticket and ask. My argument against that was in the post you quoted. If it is such a issue as to warrant banning a easy change would be to make any ships that belong to a toon on the same acct disappear as soon as another toon logs into the same acct, I'm sure gankers would love that idea. Not gonna happen. This isa perfect logoffski handed to you on a platter. Forcefully crash your cleint and log back on an alt to save any ships including but not limited to titans... That was my point, in the case of "logging in my logi to fix my freighter" the 1st toon is being kept in space because of something that I have no control over in a ship that has no way to fight back outside of concord showing up. That being said I think that it is highly unlikely to work as it would require you to be ganked in a place that you have the 2nd toon and for you to: 1: Log into the the new 2: Get in system 2: Land on grid 3: Lock Freighter 4: start reps and have them land All the while your ship has lost any bonuses from piloting skill, is now sitting there like a lump (to be fair it was pretty much doing this before), and the ganker is still shooting you. If you can manage all this then you were prolly not going to die anyways.
Siegfried Cohenberg Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 86	Posted - 2015.05.25 19:02:17 - [22] - Quote Aquila Sagitta wrote: Ganks generally happen very quickly. Your ship would be dead before you loaded grid with second account (assuming you were logged off where your freighter was tackled) Your ship also loses all bonuses when you log off cuting your ehp by up to 25% this is a myth you don't lose any ehp for logging off
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 9713	Posted - 2015.05.25 19:17:21 - [23] - Quote Siegfried Cohenberg wrote: Aquila Sagitta wrote: Ganks generally happen very quickly. Your ship would be dead before you loaded grid with second account (assuming you were logged off where your freighter was tackled) Your ship also loses all bonuses when you log off cuting your ehp by up to 25% this is a myth you don't lose any ehp for logging off is correct you're still plugged into the ship. If you ejected you would lose it but not from log or dc. Also this is a silly thread...but I like it. =]\|[=
Aralyn Cormallen Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 1122	Posted - 2015.05.25 19:28:21 - [24] - Quote Kashadin wrote: I would assume it is a bump followed by a alpha gank, if not then it's not really all that hyper and this game is starting to go off into left field with its terms. A hyperdunk is the proces of committing a gank by a single character applying all the dps and cycling through ships - I believe the process is dumping a ton of unpiloted catalysts from an orca in one spot, and a bunch of shuttles/noobships elsewhere. The ganker attacks with catalyst one, gets concorded, warps and gets in to shuttle one while under the GCC so concord warps to that and concords it, the pilot warps to catalyst two, doing damage while concord warps back from the shuttle dump to concord catalyst 2, then its back and forth between catalysts and shuttles with concord pinging back and forth behind. By the nature of it, it takes quite a bit of time.
Aralyn Cormallen Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 1122	Posted - 2015.05.25 19:37:40 - [25] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Damen Apol wrote: You log on to the same account with an alt in a logi ship, find where your bump-tackled ship is and rep it up. Until ganker either calls in more backup to beat your reps, suicides on your logi ship, or gives up. I'm almost positive you would be perma banned for doing that. I would guess it was safe, after all, it could be argued that the pilot had no say in his first character staying logged in ("I logged him off, it was the other character who kept him on field"), and as only one is under active control, its not getting two characters on the sly. Of course, i'm sure there would be ways to exploit this, particularly with long-cycle modules (get your alt agressed then have a second character participate whilst the firsts module is still running), but I can't thing of many immediately - maybe fleet boosters, certainly cynos, but then you would need a second account anyway to invite your second character in to the first characters fleet. Maybe the new entosis link too, basically anything with a multiple-minute cycle time. As for should it be allowable? Well, at least the guys being pro-active, so I'd urge on the side of clever thinking being a fair counter to clever thinking.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25184	Posted - 2015.05.25 19:41:30 - [26] - Quote Effective? Yes. Difficult to pull off reliably? Also yes. Bound to create a threadnought as the GMs' can't provide an official answer? Very yes. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Kashadin Big Johnson's 70	Posted - 2015.05.25 19:47:34 - [27] - Quote Aralyn Cormallen wrote: Kashadin wrote: I would assume it is a bump followed by a alpha gank, if not then it's not really all that hyper and this game is starting to go off into left field with its terms. A hyperdunk is the proces of committing a gank by a single character applying all the dps and cycling through ships - I believe the process is dumping a ton of unpiloted catalysts from an orca in one spot, and a bunch of shuttles/noobships elsewhere. The ganker attacks with catalyst one, gets concorded, warps and gets in to shuttle one while under the GCC so concord warps to that and concords it, the pilot warps to catalyst two, doing damage while concord warps back from the shuttle dump to concord catalyst 2, then its back and forth between catalysts and shuttles with concord pinging back and forth behind. By the nature of it, it takes quite a bit of time. I propose a new term then. "slow burn gank" or "grinder" Makes more sense since (i love english) there is nothing hyper nor dunk-like with the current version.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 70	Posted - 2015.05.25 19:52:15 - [28] - Quote Tippia wrote: Effective? Yes. Difficult to pull off reliably? Also yes. Bound to create a threadnought as the GMs' can't provide an official answer? Very yes. Seems like an ingenious solution, but will take some planning to pull off. I don't think it would be considered an exploit as your initial character is being prevented from logging off through no action of your own. If you yourself prevented your character from logging off and then logged on another character to provide some kind of in game benefit, then yes that may be considered an exploit. Who knows with CCP though, its hard to tell until you put some test cases before them and see how they react.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 9714	Posted - 2015.05.25 19:53:22 - [29] - Quote Tippia wrote: Effective? Yes. Difficult to pull off reliably? Also yes. Bound to create a threadnought as the GMs' can't provide an official answer? Very yes. It's so meta we may have to have the threadnought before anyone actually pulls it off...onwards to page three o/ =]\|[=
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 70	Posted - 2015.05.25 19:53:49 - [30] - Quote Kashadin wrote: Aralyn Cormallen wrote: Kashadin wrote: I would assume it is a bump followed by a alpha gank, if not then it's not really all that hyper and this game is starting to go off into left field with its terms. A hyperdunk is the proces of committing a gank by a single character applying all the dps and cycling through ships - I believe the process is dumping a ton of unpiloted catalysts from an orca in one spot, and a bunch of shuttles/noobships elsewhere. The ganker attacks with catalyst one, gets concorded, warps and gets in to shuttle one while under the GCC so concord warps to that and concords it, the pilot warps to catalyst two, doing damage while concord warps back from the shuttle dump to concord catalyst 2, then its back and forth between catalysts and shuttles with concord pinging back and forth behind. By the nature of it, it takes quite a bit of time. I propose a new term then. "slow burn gank" or "grinder" Makes more sense since (i love english) there is nothing hyper nor dunk-like with the current version. Or it might be easier if you simply adopt the term hyper-dunking; after all that is the term that anyone who keeps up with events knows it as. winks
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 37554	Posted - 2015.05.25 20:01:48 - [31] - Quote Kashadin wrote: I propose a new term then. "slow burn gank" or "grinder" Makes more sense since (i love english) there is nothing hyper nor dunk-like with the current version. You'll be hard pressed to gain much traction for a new term for it. There's even official clarification on the use of the tactic that refers to it as hyperdunking because it's been called that since the bowhead was released and it became an effective way to semi-solo gank: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=400977 Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1833	Posted - 2015.05.25 20:05:50 - [32] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Tippia wrote: Effective? Yes. Difficult to pull off reliably? Also yes. Bound to create a threadnought as the GMs' can't provide an official answer? Very yes. It's so meta we may have to have the threadnought before anyone actually pulls it off...onwards to page three o/ I forum lawyered a counter-gank tactic before it was executed...
Reislier 108	Posted - 2015.05.25 20:49:48 - [33] - Quote this is worth trying.. just for the politics alone. Be nice. If nice not work, be civil. If civil not work, beat with iron pipe till bloody and still.
Degnar Oskold Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 163	Posted - 2015.05.25 21:43:10 - [34] - Quote When is the last time that anyone was even hyperdunked? Looking at zkillboard I can't find any solo freighter ganks for over a week at least.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6662	Posted - 2015.05.25 22:07:14 - [35] - Quote Degnar Oskold wrote: When is the last time that anyone was even hyperdunked? Looking at zkillboard I can't find any solo freighter ganks for over a week at least. Hyperdunks are rare because the dunker puts himself in a position where the investment and logistics of time and staging of equipment can very easily be put to waste by even one anti-ganker. Hence it appears to be more of a "cool move" than a cost-effective one, as far as ganking a freighter is concerned. From what I have seen of it, it looks very tedious. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Vortexo VonBrenner kaldasti sjo sigla 1881	Posted - 2015.05.25 22:16:02 - [36] - Quote Mr Epeen wrote: The most effective tactic against hyper-dunking is to sell your hauler character and use the proceeds to pay for your transport needs. People like Red Frog are quite good at avoiding problems and are a reasonable price. Plus, they take the risk. All you do is fire them a couple of million ISKies, tell them where to pick up and drop off and then go have some fun doing anything but hauling. When the choice is between risking your ship and whatever it's carrying or tossing some guy a million a jump to run from Jita to Amarr and risking nothing, I know which I'd choose. Mr Epeen Someone just revealed one of their characters flies for Red Frog ;) I need to check out Hello Kitty Island Adventure. It must be a good game as people in EvE tell me all the time that I should be playing it.
Damen Apol Fight The Blob 106	Posted - 2015.05.25 22:42:38 - [37] - Quote Mr Epeen wrote: The most effective tactic against hyper-dunking is to sell your hauler character and use the proceeds to pay for your transport needs. People like Red Frog are quite good at avoiding problems and are a reasonable price. Plus, they take the risk. All you do is fire them a couple of million ISKies, tell them where to pick up and drop off and then go have some fun doing anything but hauling. When the choice is between risking your ship and whatever it's carrying or tossing some guy a million a jump to run from Jita to Amarr and risking nothing, I know which I'd choose. Mr Epeen Yea, I don't even use RFF because their prices are hilariously expensive. I'm just asking from a theoretical perspective having thought of it as a potential answer.
Dangeresque Too Pistols for Pandas 169	Posted - 2015.05.26 02:31:57 - [38] - Quote Degnar Oskold wrote: When is the last time that anyone was even hyperdunked? Looking at zkillboard I can't find any solo freighter ganks for over a week at least. Who said freighters are the only targets? POS arrays are taken down constantly with this tactic, though a little more of a lottery as you can't scan the array to see what it might drop first. And its called hyper dunking because it is a much faster way of solo ganking stuff than having to wait out the pesky GCC flag which otherwise keeps you from warping in a ship or boarding one of your own ships, but boarding someone else's ship is apparently perfectly fine.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 15966	Posted - 2015.05.26 04:06:05 - [39] - Quote Just dont fly afk. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
War Kitten Panda McLegion 6112	Posted - 2015.05.26 13:00:06 - [40] - Quote 000Hunter000 wrote: Now a while ago there was another thread talking about bumping someones ship again and again. .... IMO, atleast they should change the system so if u bump someone repeatedly u will get flagged to that person so they can shoot at you Atleast this way the bumper has a risk as well, i mean it's a sandbox right? Good idea - then the freighter being bumped is free to shoot back at the guy bumping him. I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 11107	Posted - 2015.05.26 13:11:12 - [41] - Quote Tippia wrote: Effective? Yes. Difficult to pull off reliably? Also yes. Bound to create a threadnought as the GMs' can't provide an official answer? Very yes. It kind of blows up the attempt by some of the anti-gank posters to appear 'reasonable' lol. They always say "ganking is ok, it just should not be so easy or so cheap!". Someone comes up with a ganking method that is not easy, not as cheap and that exposes the ganker to more danger/risk of failure, but instead of them saying "well, that's ok, it meets our standard of effort", they find other ways to claim that it's bad and should be removed...exposing the truth of their belief that ANY ganking should be banned, no matter how much effort it takes.
Anthar Thebess 1045	Posted - 2015.05.26 13:26:23 - [42] - Quote Best defense for your freighter : Fly always with pair of T2 logi and a machariel bumper/webber. Pair of logi will protect you from hyper dunking , as their reps should keep up base tactics. Machariel job will be to bump off bumpers and provide extra web while you align your freighter, and warp off. Don't forget about links in the system and nomad set. I think thats all. Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
GankYou Redshield Holding Company 438	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:43:07 - [43] - Quote Damen Apol wrote: I'm partially wondering if having two ships/characters from the same account online in space would be considered an exploit of some sort? I'm also partially wondering if that would even work or if the ability to have multiple characters in space (albeit not under your control) from a single account has further ramifications. Why would it, that's complying with the official game mechanics? The broken thing at the moment is the inability to "safely log out" if one is being targetted - freighters get footballed for hours just because. ...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+ Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
Eugene Kerner TunDraGon That Escalated Quickly. 1584	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:15:37 - [44] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Fly with an escort. Good scout + web alts. Web alts can also ECM. and die in the process... TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] " -á CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a di++k joke."-áRobin Williams - RIP
SilentAsTheGrave Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 276	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:10:26 - [45] - Quote Sorry OP, but you need to realize the fact that using capital ship sized transports in high sec is suicide. They keep telling you to use scouts, watch kill boards, bring ECM and other things, but the dirty secret is none of that matters. If they want to suicide gank you - you will die. It is far too easy to bump with neutral alts who can't be touched. Use throw away suicide aggression noob ships. Suicide Blackbirds to ECM your webbing alt. The list goes on. They keep feeding this misinformation so you keep hauling with capital sized transports and thus, allow them to keep suicide ganking. My advice is to take away their target by not flying that stuff. Then watch the forums flood with suicide ganker tears. Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
Bethan Le Troix Krusual Investigation Agency 195	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:24:43 - [46] - Quote 000Hunter000 wrote: Now a while ago there was another thread talking about bumping someones ship again and again. Now i do remember (a long time ago) it was considered griefing if u kept on bumping someone thus preventing them from going into warp (note that i don't mean bumping a wartarget so he can't align, but bumping a neutral target in hi sec.) I asked the same question then but I never got an answer from a dev. Offcourse maybe it's only griefing if u bump them and don't suicide gank them. IMO, atleast they should change the system so if u bump someone repeatedly u will get flagged to that person so they can shoot at you Atleast this way the bumper has a risk as well, i mean it's a sandbox right? The way I understand it is that if you, for example, follow a mining ship through all the belts in ONE system and bump them at every opportunity that is considered fair and legal by CCP. But if you follow them into more than one system or multiple systems that is griefing/harassment and could be petitioned and acted upon by CCP. Bumping alone to move someone on out of your 'territory' in any sec status system or bumping followed by ransom demand or bumping followed by suicide gank are all legal tactics. 'Hyperdunking' is still legal although I have personally challenged it ingame in local with CCP devs. Needless to say I lost that argument. I don't personally feel that bumping should be made illegal or result in suspect or limited combat status application. This is because in certain situations the only tactic left to move ships on is to bump them. I am coming from a resource protection & monitoring perspective here. I do feel the amount of hauler/industrial ganking has gone over the top currently. This is probably due to a number of factors including but not limited to boredom in sov space, in-game politics, and poor tactics on the part of haulers(Overfilling, AFK, bad ship fittings etc.). If 'FozzieSov' turns out to be exciting we may see a drop off in the amount of industrial ganking. Have to wait and see on that one.
Damen Apol Fight The Blob 109	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:13:19 - [47] - Quote SilentAsTheGrave wrote: Sorry OP, but you need to realize the fact that using capital ship sized transports in high sec is suicide. They keep telling you to use scouts, watch kill boards, bring ECM and other things, but the dirty secret is none of that matters. If they want to suicide gank you - you will die. It is far too easy to bump with neutral alts who can't be touched. Use throw away suicide aggression noob ships. Suicide Blackbirds to ECM your webbing alt. The list goes on. They keep feeding this misinformation so you keep hauling with capital sized transports and thus, allow them to keep suicide ganking. My advice is to take away their target by not flying that stuff. Then watch the forums flood with suicide ganker tears. I've never flown one and I have yet to see any ganker tears from that decision :(
Epic Name The Scope Gallente Federation 140	Posted - 2015.05.28 16:32:22 - [48] - Quote "hyper dunking" Honestly, who makes up these stupid ******* names?
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1841	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:41:38 - [49] - Quote Epic Name wrote: "hyper dunking" Honestly, who makes up these stupid ******* names? Probably reddit.
Carrie-Anne Moss Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 387	Posted - 2015.08.06 00:23:32 - [50] - Quote Bethan Le Troix wrote: 000Hunter000 wrote: Now a while ago there was another thread talking about bumping someones ship again and again. Now i do remember (a long time ago) it was considered griefing if u kept on bumping someone thus preventing them from going into warp (note that i don't mean bumping a wartarget so he can't align, but bumping a neutral target in hi sec.) I asked the same question then but I never got an answer from a dev. Offcourse maybe it's only griefing if u bump them and don't suicide gank them. IMO, atleast they should change the system so if u bump someone repeatedly u will get flagged to that person so they can shoot at you Atleast this way the bumper has a risk as well, i mean it's a sandbox right? The way I understand it is that if you, for example, follow a mining ship through all the belts in ONE system and bump them at every opportunity that is considered fair and legal by CCP. But if you follow them into more than one system or multiple systems that is griefing/harassment and could be petitioned and acted upon by CCP. Bumping alone to move someone on out of your 'territory' in any sec status system or bumping followed by ransom demand or bumping followed by suicide gank are all legal tactics. 'Hyperdunking' is still legal although I have personally challenged it ingame in local with CCP devs. Needless to say I lost that argument. I don't personally feel that bumping should be made illegal or result in suspect or limited combat status application. This is because in certain situations the only tactic left to move ships on is to bump them. I am coming from a resource protection & monitoring perspective here. I do feel the amount of hauler/industrial ganking has gone over the top currently. This is probably due to a number of factors including but not limited to boredom in sov space, in-game politics, and poor tactics on the part of haulers(Overfilling, AFK, bad ship fittings etc.). If 'FozzieSov' turns out to be exciting we may see a drop off in the amount of industrial ganking. Have to wait and see on that one. You are incorrect
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. CODE. 13971	Posted - 2015.08.06 00:52:13 - [51] - Quote Dude. Almost 3 months. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Lena Lazair Khanid Irregulars Khanid's Legion 508	Posted - 2015.08.06 00:53:59 - [52] - Quote Kashadin wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Kashadin wrote: Why? You really can't think of why? The whole "same account" part might cause a GM to raise his eyebrows. If you don't believe me, by all means, put in a ticket and ask. My argument against that was in the post you quoted. If it is such a issue as to warrant banning a easy change would be to make any ships that belong to a toon on the same acct disappear as soon as another toon logs into the same acct, I'm sure gankers would love that idea. Yep, sounds like "creative use of game mechanics" to me. It would be incredibly hypocritical of CCP to ban a hauler using this legit mechanic to rep their ship in space considering how far the gankers are going to bend the rules.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 24519	Posted - 2015.08.06 00:54:05 - [53] - Quote Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Bethan Le Troix wrote: 000Hunter000 wrote: Now a while ago there was another thread talking about bumping someones ship again and again. Now i do remember (a long time ago) it was considered griefing if u kept on bumping someone thus preventing them from going into warp (note that i don't mean bumping a wartarget so he can't align, but bumping a neutral target in hi sec.) I asked the same question then but I never got an answer from a dev. Offcourse maybe it's only griefing if u bump them and don't suicide gank them. IMO, atleast they should change the system so if u bump someone repeatedly u will get flagged to that person so they can shoot at you Atleast this way the bumper has a risk as well, i mean it's a sandbox right? The way I understand it is that if you, for example, follow a mining ship through all the belts in ONE system and bump them at every opportunity that is considered fair and legal by CCP. But if you follow them into more than one system or multiple systems that is griefing/harassment and could be petitioned and acted upon by CCP. Bumping alone to move someone on out of your 'territory' in any sec status system or bumping followed by ransom demand or bumping followed by suicide gank are all legal tactics. 'Hyperdunking' is still legal although I have personally challenged it ingame in local with CCP devs. Needless to say I lost that argument. I don't personally feel that bumping should be made illegal or result in suspect or limited combat status application. This is because in certain situations the only tactic left to move ships on is to bump them. I am coming from a resource protection & monitoring perspective here. I do feel the amount of hauler/industrial ganking has gone over the top currently. This is probably due to a number of factors including but not limited to boredom in sov space, in-game politics, and poor tactics on the part of haulers(Overfilling, AFK, bad ship fittings etc.). If 'FozzieSov' turns out to be exciting we may see a drop off in the amount of industrial ganking. Have to wait and see on that one. You are incorrect I hate to say it but Carrie is right. Harassment by bumping is defined in the C&P sticky and somewhat summarised below, as is active evasion. GM Karidor, over multiple posts in one thread, wrote: ... CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another playerGÇÖs ship as an exploit. However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis... ...You are mistaken. If you are reported and we find you actively following around a target without a war to continue bumping a specific player, it will still (at some point) considered harassment, even if you divert your 'attention' a little while doing so. If you have a bone to pick with someone, declare a war and take the risk that your target may actually taste blood and fight back (or finds allies for that part)... ... While it will involve inconvenience, we will have to see that one actively tried evasion before we consider someone being followed around and harassed. Merely changing belts in the same system or moving a few thousand meters to another asteroid would not qualify in this regard. Ideally you would move to other systems and more than just one or two jumps to avoid being found again quickly, requiring some effort to locate you again (i.e. through locator agents)... ... Depends, see the answer to the quote above which should cover this as well. If the victim just moved next door, that could still be interpreted as 'general area of operation', if the miner starts changing regions and is still being followed around by the same person that keeps bumping in a regular manner then the intent is pretty clear. Note that I said person, not character, so regional alts will be considered be the same player in this regard. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. CODE. 13971	Posted - 2015.08.06 00:55:29 - [54] - Quote Lena Lazair wrote: Yep, sounds like "creative use of game mechanics" to me. It would be incredibly hypocritical of CCP to ban a hauler using this legit mechanic to rep their ship in space considering how far the gankers are going to bend the rules. Since apparently the necro was successful, I'll go ahead and reply until the GMs lock this. No matter what you might think about ganking and bumping, we don't ever have two characters logged into the same account at once, nevermind assisting itself. No matter what you can spin, you cannot justify that. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Lena Lazair Khanid Irregulars Khanid's Legion 508	Posted - 2015.08.06 00:56:34 - [55] - Quote Kashadin wrote: That being said I think that it is highly unlikely to work as it would require you to be ganked in a place that you have the 2nd toon and for you to: 1: Log into the the new 2: Get in system 2: Land on grid 3: Lock Freighter 4: start reps and have them land All the while your ship has lost any bonuses from piloting skill, is now sitting there like a lump (to be fair it was pretty much doing this before), and the ganker is still shooting you. If you can manage all this then you were prolly not going to die anyways. In the case of hyperdunks in 0.5 chokepoints it's actually very likely to be able to meet all of these criteria with your logi alt and to save a freighter from an otherwise successful gank.
Lena Lazair Khanid Irregulars Khanid's Legion 508	Posted - 2015.08.06 00:59:15 - [56] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Since apparently the necro was successful, I'll go ahead and reply until the GMs lock this. No matter what you might think about ganking and bumping, we don't ever have two characters logged into the same account at once, nevermind assisting itself. No matter what you can spin, you cannot justify that. So what you're saying is if I keep you bumped and flagged until downtime on your only account, I can effectively prevent you from playing the game forever. You can't even log onto your market alt without risking a permaban. Seems reasonable.
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. CODE. 13972	Posted - 2015.08.06 01:05:09 - [57] - Quote Lena Lazair wrote: So what you're saying is if I keep you bumped and flagged until downtime on your only account, I can effectively prevent you from playing the game forever. If you don't make an effort to escape, you can be bumped for a while, so long as I demand a ransom. And no, clicking "align" for the tenth or twentieth time doesn't count. Now, if all they're doing is bumping, then feel free to log off. Quote: You can't even log onto your market alt without risking a permaban. Seems reasonable. I did not say that. I said that having two characters logged in at the same time, while one is actively assisting the other in space, on the same grid, is likely to get you in trouble. And like I said to the others. If you don't believe me, feel free to put in a GM ticket and ask about it. Straight up, say "Am I allowed to log into two characters at once on the same account to have one rep the other?" You'll get your answer. I know you probably won't, because you're desperate to avoid a straight "no". "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Bobb Bobbington The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 21	Posted - 2015.08.06 01:08:29 - [58] - Quote What if you ganked the ganker by getting a cheap alt ship, MWDing to where he lands, and then getting his pod with smart bombs when his ship explodes? They'd have to give up sometime... maybe?
Lena Lazair Khanid Irregulars Khanid's Legion 509	Posted - 2015.08.06 01:08:39 - [59] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Lena Lazair wrote: So what you're saying is if I keep you bumped and flagged until downtime on your only account, I can effectively prevent you from playing the game forever. If you don't make an effort to escape, you can be bumped for a while, so long as I demand a ransom. No, I just need to have a valid gameplay reason. I could easily argue that keeping your market alt offline for the whole day is a profitable, PvP gameplay goal for me. (EDIT: no strikethrough? CCP forums I am disappoint) Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I did not say that. I said that having two characters logged in at the same time, while one is actively assisting the other in space, on the same grid, is likely to get you in trouble. That sounds like a pretty arbitrary distinction that will be hell on the GMs to field tickets about on an ongoing basis. Kaarous Aldurald wrote: And like I said to the others. If you don't believe me, feel free to put in a GM ticket and ask about it. Straight up, say "Am I allowed to log into two characters at once on the same account to have one rep the other?" You'll get your answer. I know you probably won't, because you're desperate to avoid a straight "no". I have no horse in this race.
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. CODE. 13972	Posted - 2015.08.06 01:16:31 - [60] - Quote Lena Lazair wrote: No, I just have to make a profit. I could easily argue that keeping your market alt offline for the whole day is a profitable, PvP gameplay goal for me. I would personally be hesitant to claim that as rationale. Ransom is so much simpler, and pretty much pre-approved by the GM staff besides. Nevermind that I genuinely suck at bumping. Quote: I have no horse in this race. I couldn't tell, considering it certainly seems like you were arguing for the legality of having two characters logged in at the same time on the same account, one repping the other, and claiming that as a valid tactic because bumping exists. If I'm wrong, by all means, please tell me what position you actually are taking here. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Lena Lazair Khanid Irregulars Khanid's Legion 509	Posted - 2015.08.06 01:55:52 - [61] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I couldn't tell, considering it certainly seems like you were arguing for the legality of having two characters logged in at the same time on the same account, one repping the other, and claiming that as a valid tactic because bumping exists. If I'm wrong, by all means, please tell me what position you actually are taking here. I'm saying the mechanics allow it and arbitary limits on this sound really painful for the GMs. The same way that hyperdunking was an unintended but creative outcome of the mechanics, this seems like something that is an equally unintended but perfectly legit creative use of the existing mechanics. Further, it's not so straightforward as you imply. Assume a GM DOES rule that using a logi to rep your freighter is verbotten, that still leaves unresolved: can I use my same account alt to bump the orca/bowhead out of range? can I use my same account alt to scout on grid to see if my main toon is still in space or not? can I use my same account alt to board the empty catalysts laying around? can I use my same account alt to bring CONCORD back to the grid as soon as the hyperdunker has pulled them off grid in his shuttle? can I use my same account alt to jam the hyperdunker once he's back in his Catalyst? can I use my same account to KM whore on my own freighter gank? can I use my same account alt to scan down their shuttle drop and pod them off grid? And so on... I'm sure someone could come up with another half-dozen variations that would each need independent GM rulings. Or we get a blanket ruling that "logging into an alt on an account with a previous toon actively in space is forbidden", which allows for the DoS scenario I already outlined. In short, it's a bad place for CCP and the GMs to be in when the game mechanics allow something and yet there are so many subtle variations that the GMs will pretty much have an endless workload while at the same time ticking people off with arbitrary rulings that have no consistent sense. So the position I'm actually taking here is that it is far easier to just HTFU and accept that it's a legit "creative use of gameplay mechanics", IMO. Not because I worry about repping my freighters or care about hyperdunking at all, but because an endless stream of GM rulings around a built-in gameplay mechanic sounds like a nightmare for all involved.
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. CODE. 13977	Posted - 2015.08.06 02:33:20 - [62] - Quote Lena Lazair wrote: I'm saying the mechanics allow it and arbitary limits on this sound really painful for the GMs. I don't understand how. Logging off of a character in space and then hopping on a market alt is markedly different than logging into another character and assisting the first character. Even in the rest of your scenarios you presented, most of those are a pretty obvious no, in my opinion. Like I said, if you think that it's allowed, ask. It really is that simple. No stream of speculation on the forums, no trying to argue your point with someone who doesn't have any authority about it anyway, you can get an answer really easily. So why has no one defending this supposed tactic taken the simple step of just asking? Seems suspicious, if you ask me. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 39484	Posted - 2015.08.06 02:33:44 - [63] - Quote Aquila Sagitta wrote: Your ship also loses all bonuses when you log off cuting your ehp by up to 25% Why? The pIlot is still sitting in the ship. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
admiral root Red Galaxy 2934	Posted - 2015.08.06 13:04:38 - [64] - Quote Damen Apol wrote: You're solo in a freighter or whatever industrial ship that can't allign fast enough. If you want an effective tactic against hyper-dunking, this would be the part where you went wrong. Don't move fat, slow ships without the appropriate support - we can't gank what we can't catch. No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
Hadrian Blackstone Immortalis Fratres Vacui Legio immortales CXCI 168	Posted - 2015.08.06 13:51:47 - [65] - Quote Epic Name wrote: "hyper dunking" Honestly, who makes up these stupid ******* names? At first I thought it was an extreme form of competitive oreo eating.
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 8897	Posted - 2015.08.06 14:58:06 - [66] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: And like I said to the others. If you don't believe me, feel free to put in a GM ticket and ask about it. Straight up, say "Am I allowed to log into two characters at once on the same account to have one rep the other?" Just because you keep repeating a lie won't ever make it true. It is impossible to have two players from the same acct logged in. Ever! The ship being bumped is not logged in. The bumper is keeping it in the game. The player being bumped has logged out and can legitimately log in on a different character. If you want to log in your repper on that acct and do what it takes to keep from losing that freighter that is being held in the game by a mechanics flaw, then by all means do it. It is not now, has never been, and will never be, an exploit. You are not logged in to two characters on the same acct at once. You have one character logged in and one ship being held in the game through no fault of your own. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2083	Posted - 2015.08.06 15:04:47 - [67] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Lena Lazair wrote: I'm saying the mechanics allow it and arbitary limits on this sound really painful for the GMs. I don't understand how. Logging off of a character in space and then hopping on a market alt is markedly different than logging into another character and assisting the first character. Even in the rest of your scenarios you presented, most of those are a pretty obvious no, in my opinion. Like I said, if you think that it's allowed, ask. It really is that simple. No stream of speculation on the forums, no trying to argue your point with someone who doesn't have any authority about it anyway, you can get an answer really easily. So why has no one defending this supposed tactic taken the simple step of just asking? Seems suspicious, if you ask me. The issue is people could try to forum lawyer their way across with some of those. Pulling CONCORD to help yourself on your alt is obviously helping your alt stuck in space but can I use my alt to gank someone else passing by? The difference between pulling CONCORD back and failing a gank on your alt will be hard to really determine. Especially if you do it in a plausible ship. That is the kind of stuff most GM would probably like to never have to deal with. People might also claim they don't know about agression timer keeping their alt in space. They were "only shooting a flashy red guy because they could". It's EVE after all, half the playerbase would probbaly at least try to internet lawyer themself out and finding an argument that will be hard to really prove is false is not all that hard especially if you don't do it multiple times.
Flitz Farseeker Farseeker Enterprises 4	Posted - 2015.08.06 15:54:44 - [68] - Quote admiral root wrote: Don't move fat, slow ships without the appropriate support - we can't gank what we can't catch. admiral root has a fair point. It's a MMO after all. While nobody is stopping you from playing solo, you need to accept that some activities are beyond the capabilities of a single character and, dodgy game mechanics aside, hauling stuff in freighters is one of those activities. Rather that worrying about whether logging in your alt is legal, you could just get a 2nd account, or join a corp and bring along some friendly support. While losing a freighter to hyperdunking is a rather harsh lesson, welcome to EvE.
Syn Shi School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 176	Posted - 2015.08.06 21:29:47 - [69] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Damen Apol wrote: You log on to the same account with an alt in a logi ship, find where your bump-tackled ship is and rep it up. Until ganker either calls in more backup to beat your reps, suicides on your logi ship, or gives up. I'm almost positive you would be perma banned for doing that. Since the game mechanics allow you to do it it is perfectly legal. Don't listen to someone who participates in said gank.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo The Happy Meal 989	Posted - 2015.08.07 01:04:19 - [70] - Quote SilentAsTheGrave wrote: Sorry OP, but you need to realize the fact that using capital ship sized transports in high sec is suicide. They keep telling you to use scouts, watch kill boards, bring ECM and other things, but the dirty secret is none of that matters. If they want to suicide gank you - you will die. It is far too easy to bump with neutral alts who can't be touched. Use throw away suicide aggression noob ships. Suicide Blackbirds to ECM your webbing alt. The list goes on. They keep feeding this misinformation so you keep hauling with capital sized transports and thus, allow them to keep suicide ganking. My advice is to take away their target by not flying that stuff. Then watch the forums flood with suicide ganker tears. Bring a proper escort and you're fine. A few friends in ECCM Rapiers and put the others in Falcons so they can jam the suicide tackle. Capital ships are not solo ships. There are all our dominion Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Maldiro Selkurk CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X 400	Posted - 2015.08.07 01:58:47 - [71] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Fly with an escort. Good scout + web alts. Web alts can also ECM. just die. easier and much more cost effective in the long run. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. CODE. 13991	Posted - 2015.08.07 02:08:51 - [72] - Quote Syn Shi wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Damen Apol wrote: You log on to the same account with an alt in a logi ship, find where your bump-tackled ship is and rep it up. Until ganker either calls in more backup to beat your reps, suicides on your logi ship, or gives up. I'm almost positive you would be perma banned for doing that. Since the game mechanics allow you to do it it is perfectly legal. Don't listen to someone who participates in said gank. I am one of a very few people who know of a way to evade Concord. The game mechanics absolutely allow me to do it. I would be banned anyway. Like I said, those of you defending this nonsense, go ahead and be a man and put a ticket in about it. You'll get your answer. But like the rest of the shills, you don't have the spine to actually get a concrete answer about it, you'd prefer to just bluster on the forums. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6898	Posted - 2015.08.07 08:25:29 - [73] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Syn Shi wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Damen Apol wrote: You log on to the same account with an alt in a logi ship, find where your bump-tackled ship is and rep it up. Until ganker either calls in more backup to beat your reps, suicides on your logi ship, or gives up. I'm almost positive you would be perma banned for doing that. Since the game mechanics allow you to do it it is perfectly legal. Don't listen to someone who participates in said gank. I am one of a very few people who know of a way to evade Concord. The game mechanics absolutely allow me to do it. I would be banned anyway. Like I said, those of you defending this nonsense, go ahead and be a man and put a ticket in about it. You'll get your answer. But like the rest of the shills, you don't have the spine to actually get a concrete answer about it, you'd prefer to just bluster on the forums. The only way you would know it is by having done it. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Lena Lazair Khanid Irregulars Khanid's Legion 514	Posted - 2015.08.07 09:36:31 - [74] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I am one of a very few people who know of a way to evade Concord. The game mechanics absolutely allow me to do it. I would be banned anyway. And you've reported this through the official CCP exploit channels, right? Regardless, this sort of thing is exactly what prompted GM's to eventually issue a blanket ruling that evading CONCORD is an exploit, period. Because trying to cover all the edge cases with individual rulings became a GM hassle. Which is fine; if they issue a blanket ruling that logging in another character on the same account while one is stuck in space is an exploit, no issues there. It introduces the potential to keep someone from playing EVE for a day or so, but that's not the end of the world. If they try to do it with individual rulings on specific scenarios, we'll just get a bunch of space lawyering and annoyed GM's. So I vote we skip all that, save the GM's from a litany of stupid tickets, and just accept that there's no reason except spite and prejudice to be against carebear haulers creatively using game mechanics no more or less exploit-y than the hyperdunkers. What's good for the goose...
Sequester Risalo Semiki Minerals and Missiles Company Ltd. 156	Posted - 2015.08.07 12:15:02 - [75] - Quote Lena Lazair wrote: ...if they issue a blanket ruling that logging in another character on the same account while one is stuck in space is an exploit, no issues there.... The only problem is I would have no idea if the other toon is stuck in space. I mean the freighter could be bumped for ever and the Pilot could be banned for logging in his trading alt 2 hours later. Doesn't seem fair.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 1290	Posted - 2015.08.07 12:35:22 - [76] - Quote Sequester Risalo wrote: Lena Lazair wrote: ...if they issue a blanket ruling that logging in another character on the same account while one is stuck in space is an exploit, no issues there.... The only problem is I would have no idea if the other toon is stuck in space. I mean the freighter could be bumped for ever and the Pilot could be banned for logging in his trading alt 2 hours later. Doesn't seem fair. I believe Kaarous is suggesting that it could be an exploit to log into a second character in order to rep your other character's ship, not that it would be verboten to just log into a second character at all while your first character's ship is still in space. The main no-no being having two characters (on the same account) affecting gameplay on the same grid at the same time. I don't know if that is true, and only CCP can tell us definitively in any case, but it would seem plausible to me that this would be considered an exploit. You should not be able to "benefit" from two characters from the same account logged in simultaneously to the same PvP encounter, especially on the same grid. However, since your skills do not contribute to your ship while logged off even if it is still in space (as I understand it), then perhaps your freighter pilot is not consider logged in this situation and thus it would be ok to rep your effectively-pilotless bumped freighter with a second character. Hopefully someone can get and share a ruling on this situation to clear things up.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2100	Posted - 2015.08.07 16:27:49 - [77] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Sequester Risalo wrote: Lena Lazair wrote: ...if they issue a blanket ruling that logging in another character on the same account while one is stuck in space is an exploit, no issues there.... The only problem is I would have no idea if the other toon is stuck in space. I mean the freighter could be bumped for ever and the Pilot could be banned for logging in his trading alt 2 hours later. Doesn't seem fair. I believe Kaarous is suggesting that it could be an exploit to log into a second character in order to rep your other character's ship, not that it would be verboten to just log into a second character at all while your first character's ship is still in space. The main no-no being having two characters (on the same account) affecting gameplay on the same grid at the same time. I don't know if that is true, and only CCP can tell us definitively in any case, but it would seem plausible to me that this would be considered an exploit. You should not be able to "benefit" from two characters from the same account logged in simultaneously to the same PvP encounter, especially on the same grid. However, since your skills do not contribute to your ship while logged off even if it is still in space (as I understand it), then perhaps your freighter pilot is not consider logged in this situation and thus it would be ok to rep your effectively-pilotless bumped freighter with a second character. Hopefully someone can get and share a ruling on this situation to clear things up. Anybody that would open a ticket can't reveal the content... People would also internet lawyer their way around whatever was said. There is also a bunch of things you could do to help your freighter with an alt without interacting with it. Spawning concord for example or finding the ship to pull concord off the gate where the gank happen and killing/stealing them so the ganker has no more options to pull concord off. "I'm not saving my freighter sir, I'm just shooting those odd abandoned shuttles I found in deep space."
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 1290	Posted - 2015.08.07 16:56:58 - [78] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Anybody that would open a ticket can't reveal the content... People would also internet lawyer their way around whatever was said. There is also a bunch of things you could do to help your freighter with an alt without interacting with it. Spawning concord for example or finding the ship to pull concord off the gate where the gank happen and killing/stealing them so the ganker has no more options to pull concord off. "I'm not saving my freighter sir, I'm just shooting those odd abandoned shuttles I found in deep space." You can reveal the content. You just can't post GM correspondence verbatim. People can rule-lawyer all they want but it would be clear to the GM if you were in the participating in the same PvP engagement simultaneously with two characters and they have the final say. I don't see why people argue that drawing a line is a bad thing as people will always dance around them with excuses. Since people will dance anyway no matter how precise the rules are, and CCP get to make the final say in all cases, the more information they give us on what actions are within the rules and what are not, the better.
Bing Bangboom DAMAG Safety Commission 370	Posted - 2015.08.07 17:25:34 - [79] - Quote Bobb Bobbington wrote: What if you ganked the ganker by getting a cheap alt ship, MWDing to where he lands, and then getting his pod with smart bombs when his ship explodes? They'd have to give up sometime... maybe? You would be unlikely to stop the gank. Whole fleets of anti-gankers can't stop the massacre in Uedema. And podding the gankers is pointless. What you would accomplish is podding him right back into the station he came out of where he has a stack of the few implants he actually uses. He would be ready to go as soon after that as he is waiting for the cooldown. Since CODE. always wins, they, for one, never give up. Highsec is worth fighting for. By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.-á www.minerbumping.com
Salvos Rhoska 1226	Posted - 2015.08.08 05:40:18 - [80] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: feel free to put in a GM ticket and ask about it. Straight up, say "Am I allowed to log into two characters at once on the same account to have one rep the other?" You'll get your answer. I know you probably won't, because you're desperate to avoid a straight "no". Then why don't you do it yourself so you can rub the answer in their face. Cos you're desperate to avoid it being ok and offering a potential recourse against hyperdunking :D ------------
Globby Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE. 184	Posted - 2015.08.09 00:32:28 - [81] - Quote #1 way to stop a hyperdunk is to not be AFK
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3202	Posted - 2015.08.09 01:21:23 - [82] - Quote Lena Lazair wrote: Which is fine; if they issue a blanket ruling that logging in another character on the same account while one is stuck in space is an exploit, no issues there. It introduces the potential to keep someone from playing EVE for a day or so, but that's not the end of the world. If they try to do it with individual rulings on specific scenarios, we'll just get a bunch of space lawyering and annoyed GM's. My guess is that if this event occurs we'd also see some action taken on bumping too. You might find that suddenly bumping has an issue with the ToS, specifically number 16, Quote: You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 11	Posted - 2015.08.09 02:03:29 - [83] - Quote Hyperdunking usually involves bumping the freighter being ganked. Once it's off-grid, your logi fit would have to include probes and a MWD to even get at your freighter. The simplest counterplay once a dunk in progress is to hit 'safe logoff' the instant you realize what's happening (you don't get a PvP timer from a bump) and hope the shooting doesn't start until the safe logoff timer expires. Then you go jump on an alt and wait for the ganker(s) to get bored. This will only work once per ganker, because shooting faster is a counter to it. The best counter would be to fly with escorts. This could be someone with probes to fly ahead and steal all these gank-fit catas, logi for repairs, or someone with a combat ship to jam/kill the gankers with before CONCORD gets there. Blowing up the catas before CONCORD does means they underestimate how many catas they need, and those things are squishy. Or, if you get a ship between the freighter and the bumper (or bump the bumper as he realigns), it would make a nice movie. A signature :o
Shuckstar Taking Inc 326	Posted - 2015.08.09 03:25:26 - [84] - Quote Lena Lazair wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I couldn't tell, considering it certainly seems like you were arguing for the legality of having two characters logged in at the same time on the same account, one repping the other, and claiming that as a valid tactic because bumping exists. If I'm wrong, by all means, please tell me what position you actually are taking here. I'm saying the mechanics allow it and arbitary limits on this sound really painful for the GMs. The same way that hyperdunking was an unintended but creative outcome of the mechanics, this seems like something that is an equally unintended but perfectly legit creative use of the existing mechanics. Further, it's not so straightforward as you imply. Assume a GM DOES rule that using a logi to rep your freighter is verbotten, that still leaves unresolved: can I use my same account alt to bump the orca/bowhead out of range? can I use my same account alt to scout on grid to see if my main toon is still in space or not? can I use my same account alt to board the empty catalysts laying around? can I use my same account alt to bring CONCORD back to the grid as soon as the hyperdunker has pulled them off grid in his shuttle? can I use my same account alt to jam the hyperdunker once he's back in his Catalyst? can I use my same account to KM whore on my own freighter gank? can I use my same account alt to scan down their shuttle drop and pod them off grid? I put a ticket in and asked these specific questions and it is allowed to use an alt on the same account to help/aid ect another character on that account that is logged out. So there's your answer :) CCP Greyscale wrote:"OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)"
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 8965	Posted - 2015.08.09 04:50:47 - [85] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So why has no one defending this supposed tactic taken the simple step of just asking? Seems suspicious, if you ask me. Shuckstar wrote: I put a ticket in and asked these specific questions and you are allowed to use an alt on the same account to help/aid ect another character on that account that is logged out. So there's your answer :) Well done, sir. Well done, indeed. Now we can put that to bed and wait for the elites in CODE to fabricate some other thing to deny 'carebears' from protecting themselves. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Freddy Sokarad Tax Haters Evaders Corp 0	Posted - 2015.08.10 16:49:18 - [86] - Quote Shuckstar wrote: Lena Lazair wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I couldn't tell, considering it certainly seems like you were arguing for the legality of having two characters logged in at the same time on the same account, one repping the other, and claiming that as a valid tactic because bumping exists. If I'm wrong, by all means, please tell me what position you actually are taking here. I'm saying the mechanics allow it and arbitary limits on this sound really painful for the GMs. The same way that hyperdunking was an unintended but creative outcome of the mechanics, this seems like something that is an equally unintended but perfectly legit creative use of the existing mechanics. Further, it's not so straightforward as you imply. Assume a GM DOES rule that using a logi to rep your freighter is verbotten, that still leaves unresolved: can I use my same account alt to bump the orca/bowhead out of range? can I use my same account alt to scout on grid to see if my main toon is still in space or not? can I use my same account alt to board the empty catalysts laying around? can I use my same account alt to bring CONCORD back to the grid as soon as the hyperdunker has pulled them off grid in his shuttle? can I use my same account alt to jam the hyperdunker once he's back in his Catalyst? can I use my same account to KM whore on my own freighter gank? can I use my same account alt to scan down their shuttle drop and pod them off grid? I put a ticket in and asked these specific questions and you are allowed to use an alt on the same account to help/aid ect another character on that account that is logged out. So there's your answer :) Dammit a person who actually put in a ticket to find out the answer's without foaming at the mouth in rage, like that CODE dude....
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. CODE. 14052	Posted - 2015.08.10 16:58:27 - [87] - Quote Shuckstar wrote: I put a ticket in and asked these specific questions and you are allowed to use an alt on the same account to help/aid ect another character on that account that is logged out. So there's your answer :) Good for you. That should pretty much close the thread, then. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Shuckstar Taking Inc 332	Posted - 2015.08.10 17:01:41 - [88] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Shuckstar wrote: I put a ticket in and asked these specific questions and you are allowed to use an alt on the same account to help/aid ect another character on that account that is logged out. So there's your answer :) Good for you. That should pretty much close the thread, then. Thank you and I agree with you, this thread needs closing CCP Greyscale wrote:"OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)"
Kandu Harr Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2015.08.11 00:29:43 - [89] - Quote Shuckstar wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Shuckstar wrote: I put a ticket in and asked these specific questions and you are allowed to use an alt on the same account to help/aid ect another character on that account that is logged out. So there's your answer :) Good for you. That should pretty much close the thread, then. Thank you and I agree with you, this thread needs closing Funny, it's the only open hyperdunking thread since the "official" one got closed. Globby wrote: #1 way to stop a hyperdunk is to not be AFK No, unfortunately the answer would be to sell your freighter and contract the hauling (and risk) to someone else.
Desert Frog Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 6	Posted - 2015.08.11 11:28:42 - [90] - Quote Mr Epeen wrote: The most effective tactic against hyper-dunking is to sell your hauler character and use the proceeds to pay for your transport needs. People like Red Frog are quite good at avoiding problems and are a reasonable price. Plus, they take the risk. All you do is fire them a couple of million ISKies, tell them where to pick up and drop off and then go have some fun doing anything but hauling. When the choice is between risking your ship and whatever it's carrying or tossing some guy a million a jump to run from Jita to Amarr and risking nothing, I know which I'd choose. Mr Epeen I'll second this suggestion. Bedouin of the galactic shipping lanes... +é+» +º+ä+¿+¦+º+¦+è+½ +à+å +ú+ä+ü +º+ä+¼+à+º+ä +¬+¦+¦+ê +ú+ê+ä+ª+â +º+ä+¦+è+å +ü+¦+è+¦+¬ +¦+ä+ë +º+ä+¦+ü+º+»+¦
Globby Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE. 184	Posted - 2015.08.11 14:23:49 - [91] - Quote Kandu Harr wrote: No, unfortunately the answer would be to sell your freighter and contract the hauling (and risk) to someone else. nothing stops you from being able to haul like redfrog

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