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Faction standing loss due declining normal missions - new ? or a bug ?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Iudex Caldari CaIdari Navy	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:49:00 - [1] Hi i've been doing missions since more than a half year now. Got my Caldari State standing to 9,89 and was looking forward for that caldari navy blueprint which you get for a faction standing of around >9.9 from an cosmos agent in otitoh. And then i see today: Faction standing loss for declining normal missions (not a storyline !) from 9.89 to 9.79. How can that be ? This must be new ? I declined hundreds of missions in the last weeks, there was always been a loss to the agent standing and towards the corporation, but never ever towards the faction so far (till today). Is this a new game feature ? If yes why didn't we get any warning or note ? (In declining-warning there it says you lose standing with agent, text is the same like before). Or is it maybe a bug ? Does someone else have it ? Is there a chance to get faction standing reimbursment ? Would be nice if someone has some facts/expiriences/infos on this issue, as this absolutely changes a certain style of missionrunning (aka "pick the best, tear down the rest").
Shinshi Casoyako	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:02:00 - [2] I dont know what you mean. You got 9,89 standing with state or navy? If its navy yes than the drop is normal, if its state than first off all mad props for getting there, than I think its a bug but I dont know. . Seriously Have I Not Said How I Can Assist Some One You Are Killing Online?
Iudex Caldari CaIdari Navy	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:09:00 - [3] Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako I dont know what you mean. You got 9,89 standing with state or navy? If its navy yes than the drop is normal, if its state than first off all mad props for getting there, than I think its a bug but I dont know. It's like i posted above, Caldari State (=faction). The loss looks tiny, but if you are around 9.8, you get only like 0.01 from storylines, sometiems you even don't see a change at all. So that 9.89 to 9.79 is a loss of at least 160 normal lvl 4 missions ... and i even dont know why, must stop doing missions till there will be more info on this issue, i guess .
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:19:00 - [4] Right click on the loss, you should have a info window for the mission who caused the loss. See what it say.
William Blight	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:27:00 - [5] Yes it seems that you get a faction standing hit now for declining missions. I declined Enemies Abound earlier and took a -0.12% faction standing hit for Caldari State. It would be nice to know if this is a bug or a new feature since before you only took a corporation standing hit NOT a faction standing hit.
Egil Kolsto	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:45:00 - [6] By hit I assume you declined MORE than the regular once per every 4 hours? I am suddenly very eager to run home and check this out!
William Blight	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Egil Kolsto By hit I assume you declined MORE than the regular once per every 4 hours? I am suddenly very eager to run home and check this out! Yes i got the warning window that warns you that"Declining this mission...blah blah". But this was the first time i got a faction hit aswell, as stated above.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.16 09:16:00 - [8] Seen 2 thread so far with this "nice" news. Hoping for a official reply. In the meantime repost it a s a bug and/or a petition in missions.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.16 11:51:00 - [9] Didn't this happen a few weeks back too? It was a bug then, hopefully a bug now too. Now where are Jiekon and Zrakor! --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Marranc White Star Corporation Gemini Federation	Posted - 2006.11.16 12:51:00 - [10] Lost 0.12% for declining courier mission last night, 0.12% at 9,55 faction hurts a lot. Would like to know if this is new feature or bug.
Shinshi Casoyako	Posted - 2006.11.16 13:15:00 - [11] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Didn't this happen a few weeks back too? It was a bug then, hopefully a bug now too. Now where are Jiekon and Zrakor! No the bug was that when you finsihed a mission you got a standing hit instead of a standing gain. . Seriously Have I Not Said How I Can Assist Some One You Are Killing Online?
Marranc White Star Corporation Gemini Federation	Posted - 2006.11.16 13:48:00 - [12] It makes sense, till now if you had high faction standings you could just find nice high quality agent and accept only missions that give highest isk. Even if you get to -10 with that corp. they will still talk to you because of high faction standings.
Iudex Caldari CaIdari Navy	Posted - 2006.11.16 14:09:00 - [13] Edited by: Iudex on 16/11/2006 14:28:49 Originally by: Marranc It makes sense, till now if you had high faction standings you could just find nice high quality agent and accept only missions that give highest isk. Even if you get to -10 with that corp. they will still talk to you because of high faction standings. Yes that was the isk-making tactics so far, although you may not get below -2 effective standing, or the agent/corp will never talk to you again, no matter the faction standing. But with deplomacy skill at 5 it was possible to do like a pool of 5-6 fast and highly paid missions, reject the rest and easy stay above -2 effective standing(which is around -5 without the diplomacy skill). I saw this option as a loyalty reward (as you need a faction standing of almost 7 for this) for high faction standing. It was extremely profitable, paid more than twice as much as if you do normal lvl 4s, so my first thought was ccp decided to cut this off, but on the other hand there was no info on this, no dev-blog, no changes in decline warning, and no info in patch notes. So if they really decided to abolish that high-profit tactics, why wouldn't they announce it and give at least a warning not to reject missions anymore ? So i think it was not intended as it is now, maybe a sideffect-bug of something else or so. Made a reimbursment petition, but this can take some days - no more mission declining for next time.
Khyle Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:06:00 - [14] Edited by: Khyle on 16/11/2006 21:06:45 Its in the patch notes now. But i could have sworn it was not in this morning.
Ikarushka A.O.U. Corp	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:42:00 - [15] yap, same thing happened to me, I got faction loss with every faction more or less. it's not that big but ti wasn't hapenning before ----------------------------------------- Your ad could be here :)
Iudex Caldari CaIdari Navy	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:56:00 - [16] It's like Khyle said, they now added to Patch Notes that this will happen from now on. So it's official then i guess, no bug, no mission-picking anymore. Too bad they didn't inform us earlier, before the damage to the faction standing was done .

Jiekon	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:54:00 - [17] This is intended and it should have been in the patch notes sooner. There was a little oversight in getting it into the patch notes, i can only apologise for that. The ability to "mission pick" was an exploit ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

AshrakTheWhite Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolance	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:49:00 - [18] in my opinion, this is bull****. 1) you dont get important missions all that often (only thing that significantly increases faction standing) 2) the hit is TOO HIGH i lost a bloddy level 4 agent for declining 1 mission
Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:41:00 - [19] Originally by: AshrakTheWhite in my opinion, this is bull****. 1) you dont get important missions all that often (only thing that significantly increases faction standing) 2) the hit is TOO HIGH i lost a bloddy level 4 agent for declining 1 mission (1) So that means you have to be carefull what you do with your faction standing (2) If you wouldn't lose access to level 4 agents this fix wouldn't have fixed the problem, right? Of course if your standing is high enough you could decide to take the hit, see (1) for details.
Dacus Alto Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:09:00 - [20] IÆm not going to comment if this is right or wrong; or if was truly an exploit. This is your game and you do whatever you consider is right from your point of view (whether or not you take in consideration the opinions of your player base itÆs another story). However, to change the way how the game works (or certain aspects of the game) and not make that change known, and then come and say that you can only apologise, it only shows how much you care about your players. Although I might be wrong, but the OP (and others like him) might have ôlostö only a few weeks of effort...I assume that they only can take it or leave it. No offence intended.
Vistilantus Caldari International House Of Pwnage Astrophobics	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:19:00 - [21] Edited by: Vistilantus on 17/11/2006 13:19:18 Originally by: Dacus Alto IÆm not going to comment if this is right or wrong; or if was truly an exploit. This is your game and you do whatever you consider is right from your point of view (whether or not you take in consideration the opinions of your player base itÆs another story). However, to change the way how the game works (or certain aspects of the game) and not make that change known, and then come and say that you can only apologise, it only shows how much you care about your players. Although I might be wrong, but the OP (and others like him) might have ôlostö only a few weeks of effort...I assume that they only can take it or leave it. No offence intended. At least he had the nuts to come in here and tell you 1) what happened and 2) that it was his fault it never made it to the patchnotes. I`m sure that CCP could have just put it into the patchnotes and said nothing further about it. why attack the devs that give out information because you lost your I-WIN button. ___________________________________________________ ~Vistilantus
Dacus Alto Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:37:00 - [22] As I said, there is no offence intended in my post. It is my opinion that, because that info was missing from the patch notes, the players affected by it should be taken care of in a way (if possible of course). I definitely do not ôattackö anyone. If my post sounded different, I apologise. P.S. I personally donÆt care about I-WIN buttons, neither the post was about any I-WIN buttons.

Jiekon	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:48:00 - [23] Edited by: Jiekon on 17/11/2006 13:49:11 I understand where you're coming from, but people have been using this exploit to get any mission they like without having to take the horrible, mundane, boring missions. Previously, people could decline as many missions as they liked without taking a faction hit. This meant that even though the agent standing and corp standing were decreasing, the faction standing (which was always high) would override the corp / agent standing, thus allowing anyone to use level 4 missions forever without being penalised for declining lots of missions ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████


Zrakor	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:53:00 - [24] Note: You should still be able to decline 1 (normal)mission every 4 hours without losing any standing.

Egil Kolsto	Posted - 2006.11.17 15:08:00 - [25] Thanks Zraknor, you had me very worried for a few minutes. There are missions I DO decline due to faction hits (aka Enemies Abound) but never more than once every 4 hours.
Mikal Drey	Posted - 2006.11.17 17:23:00 - [26] hey hey cant see the problem here myself. its still protected by the 4hr rule so there shouldnt be much of an issue. maybe someone should implement some kind of non repetitiveness for missions. getting the same mission over and over again even after you rejected it once is one reason I can see for declining so often.

Jiekon	Posted - 2006.11.17 20:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey cant see the problem here myself. its still protected by the 4hr rule so there shouldnt be much of an issue. maybe someone should implement some kind of non repetitiveness for missions. getting the same mission over and over again even after you rejected it once is one reason I can see for declining so often. This is being looked into ^_^ hopefully fixed for Kali ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Saldun Zexu	Posted - 2006.11.18 00:31:00 - [28] weird I'm pure agentrunner I've decline few missions and never lost any faction/corp standing. sometime I lost corp standing when my offered/accepted mission expired, but no faction lost and btw, you'll lost standing when you decline 2 or more offered missions under 4 hours. and there must be warning dialog box.
Nuifril	Posted - 2006.11.18 07:25:00 - [29] Originally by: Jiekon I understand where you're coming from, but people have been using this exploit to get any mission they like without having to take the horrible, mundane, boring missions. Is it just me that thinks that this is a game, and it should be fun, exciting and entertaining rather than "horrible, mundane & boring"? - I get enough of that at work without having to put up with it for entertainment....
Iudex Caldari CaIdari Navy	Posted - 2006.11.18 10:51:00 - [30] Originally by: Nuifril Originally by: Jiekon I understand where you're coming from, but people have been using this exploit to get any mission they like without having to take the horrible, mundane, boring missions. Is it just me that thinks that this is a game, and it should be fun, exciting and entertaining rather than "horrible, mundane & boring"? - I get enough of that at work without having to put up with it for entertainment.... I actually hate the suffered standing loss, but i can understand if the devs changed this. Just to give you an idea what was possible: You were able to only do the following missions (lps are with both lp-skills at 4/5, and a lvl 4 q 18 agent in 0.5): - Right hand of Zazzmatazz - under 5 minutes if in same system (as you only have to kill 3 ships and 1 building) = 5k lp. - Slave traders 2/2 under 10 minutes = 8,2k lp - Gurista spies in 5 minuts (as again only 6 ships have to be killed there) - Enemies abound 1/5 in 8-15 minuts (depending if you use a smartbomb, but only need to kill some certain spawns there) = 8,2k lp - Pirate invasion = 5-6k lp in bit over 10 minuts (you need only to kill 1 spawn there also) Thats all, if the agent standing got close to -2 you could do maybe a unauthorisized mil. presence or duo of death or so aswell, but mainly it was possible to do only the missions above and have a very fast lp income. But thats over now. Was this an exploit ? Well as the dev says so, it will be one, but i hope there will be no further punishment, as we could not clearly see this as an exploit. All we did was declining some missions, and declining as such is not forbidden. We saw this tactics as a kind of reward for having high faction standing, and that -2 limit showed us that devs thought about this option and limited it to -2, to avoid people doing only right hand of zazzmatazz all day long. Moreover it looks natural, the agent maybe doesnt't like you personally, but he has to speak to you as you are liked by his bosses (=faction), nothing uncommon in the business world today. So we should accept & adopt imho. I just wonder what else might be an "exploit" then: Killing only few ships to end the mission (as mentioned above)? Or using an expensive fitted CNR for missions too ? There are quite a few things that increas your profit - difficult to see now what of them is an exploit or not.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:35:00 - [31] I hope there will be an increase in missions availables, as I see by your list/time needed to you why some 0.0 living people feel that missions pay too much. With more diversity in the mission offered, some variable content in the mission themselves and the standing loss maybe there will be a better balance in the missions, some better drop instead of the basic items worth only recycling, and all the missions will be done.
Kamikaze	Posted - 2006.11.22 16:55:00 - [32] Edited by: Kamikaze on 22/11/2006 16:55:49
Scouty McScouter	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:26:00 - [33] one thing that turned me of off level 4 missions was that there were about 5 missions that i just couldn't do comfortably (ie Enemies Abound or Extraveganzas due to rl constraints) which I would decline, only to be offered the same one or another mission I couldn't finish comfortably. the farming damage seems to be already done though; implants have crashed so far so fast that running level3s just for the loot is making twice the average money I was making with level4s, as there are no missions that take 2 hours or that would kill me if I messed up with aggro. my 500k isk. My my my. Oops I just died again. What a good pie rat you are!
Iudex Caldari CaIdari Navy	Posted - 2006.11.23 16:29:00 - [34] Edited by: Iudex on 23/11/2006 16:32:37 Originally by: Scouty McScouter one thing that turned me of off level 4 missions was that there were about 5 missions that i just couldn't do comfortably (ie Enemies Abound or Extraveganzas due to rl constraints) which I would decline, only to be offered the same one or another mission I couldn't finish comfortably. the farming damage seems to be already done though; implants have crashed so far so fast that running level3s just for the loot is making twice the average money I was making with level4s, as there are no missions that take 2 hours or that would kill me if I messed up with aggro. my 500k isk. That implants gone down not so much because of mission-decliners, those easy to do lvl 4 courier missions are responsible for this. People do courier missions quite fast and get a lvl 4 storyline evry few hours (read some threads on this issue if you don't believe me), so that it makes no sense to get them for lps as they got so cheap (just to compare: you'd pay 100k lp for a lvl 4 implant, which needs you much more time then doing 16 courier missions). The "farming" through declining combat missions requires quite high skills in socials to be done effective - and the ability to do evry lvl 4 combat mission fast + having a faction standing of almost 7. The number of people who have this is rather small compared to the number of lvl 4 courier mission runners, who only need the skill to pilot a fast frigate or industrial ship + corp standing. So this was the mass where the implant came from and fleeded the market. That implant farming throug couriers was not closed though, in my eyes its also an exploit and should be fixed. Till then the implant pirces will continue to go down, don't think the price-situation will improve because mission-declining was stopped.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.11.24 03:08:00 - [35] Edited by: Akita T on 24/11/2006 03:12:06 Originally by: Jiekon Previously, people could decline as many missions as they liked without taking a faction hit. This meant that even though the agent standing and corp standing were decreasing, the faction standing (which was always high) would override the corp / agent standing, thus allowing anyone to use level 4 missions forever without being penalised for declining lots of missions Ok then, so how in the world is a faction standing loss decided compared to agent/corp standing loss ? Because by the looks of it, it's quite severe, at least compared to how hard faction standings are gained. And for the time being, it seems to (sometimes) happend even in the "4h grace time" lately. And what about reverse-exploiters by the way ? So, if I want REALLY, REALLY quick (even if small) standings for a fresh new char/alt, all I have to do is train up diplomacy fast, find the LOWEST quality L1 agents possible from ALL enemies of the "desired" empire and intentionally decline, decline and decline missions for them until they won't speak to me again ! When all enemy agents are exhausted, my "desired" empire standing should be pretty decent already for a very fresh 'toon. Oh, and should I go on about how "standing decrease : ship kill" only decreases standing with target faction but DOES NOT increase it with enemies of that faction ? Why's that anyway ? Or how about really obscure mechanics behind "derived faction standings" (for instance, why the heck does Mordu's Legion like me more than Caldari State anyway, even if they list +9.0 in relations, not +11.0 as you'd seem to think at first sight) ? Should I even begin to mention how completing missions for, say "Ishukone Corporation" has no reflections whatsoever on the fact they're basically almost the same corp as "Ishukone Watch" ? And last but not least, IF you get FACTION standing DECREASES for declining standard missions, why the heck not also have faction increases from completing normal missions (and NOT only from storyline missions) ? ___ The entire standing system requires a MAJOR (and I mean a MAJOR) overhaul. And among others, the means to regain faction/corp/agent standings (for whatever price might be) with some agent/corp/faction you fell under -2.00 (or -5.00, whatever). Oh, and player corp standings ? That's an even worse can of worms, I even regret opening it. For an almost exclusively semi-RP-ing carebear missionrunner like me, this is one of the WORST of the worse things in current-day EVE. _____ -sig- This is my only char. These are my skills Always question everything, including yourself
Tachy	Posted - 2006.11.24 09:24:00 - [36] Edited by: Tachy on 24/11/2006 09:28:28 The derived faction changes have the faction size impacting the amount of changes. Your standing with a small faction like Mordus will raise much faster than the one for the big factions like Amarr NotanEmpire or Caldari State. Even if you only get the derived standing change for running important mission for someone else. This helps a wee bit to fix some nasty side effects of mission running or ratting. JP Beauregard did a nice spreadsheet about the faction's relations right after the last changes. You might find it on the pilkington website if it is still active. Try checking his bio for a link as he's currently inactive due to the ongoing kali development. The forum mods deleted a thread like this on the general forum because discussing bugs isn't allowed even when the bug was already announced as an official change in the patch notes for like two hours. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20

Huitzilopochtli Tlaloc Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.11.24 11:09:00 - [37] Quote: The forum mods deleted a thread like this on the general forum because discussing bugs isn't allowed even when the bug was already announced as an official change in the patch notes for like two hours Discussing of how a bug or exploit works is not allowed on the fourms, a petition should be completed. The reason it is not allowed is that it could allow people to replicate this bug to there advantage. So please be very carefull when talkign about these things. - Thanks Hutch. ____ forum rules \| Email us They call me "Hutch" because my name is well... long Actually we call you "Hutch" because people might get the wrong idea of 'God of Young Boys' - Cortes, sigjacker extrodinaire You can't match my sig-jacking skills Cortes!! Oh and we call you Hutch because your the anti-Hitch - Petwraith

Tachy	Posted - 2006.11.24 12:43:00 - [38] Originally by: Huitzilopochtli Tlaloc Quote: [...] Discussing of how a bug or exploit works is not allowed on the fourms, a petition should be completed. The reason it is not allowed is that it could allow people to replicate this bug to there advantage. So please be very carefull when talkign about these things. Would sending in an email to [email protected] have had any effect on the informative but locked and deleted thread that included links and quotes to the updated patch notes? You can bet your pegleg onto me sending in a protest message if I'd have gotten a warning because of posting the quote of the patch notes in that thread. At least there was a semi-official post in this forum area later on so pilots who missed the patch note update had a chance to get the hint. Oh, and welcome to the weekend! (Argh, this forum needs so much love and a PM option!) --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.11.24 12:59:00 - [39] Originally by: Akita T Discussing exploits is not allowed on the fourms - if you believe you have discovered a exploit please complete a petition - thanks hutch Filed it as petition under (possible) "exploits", said "Your petition has been submitted, the petition tracking id is 456460." but then when I go into "My Petitions" it's nowhere to be found... is that normal ? _____ -sig- This is my only char. These are my skills Always question everything, including yourself
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.25 00:16:00 - [40] Sooo...it was an exploit to pick missions...but I never saw that declared before this thread. So now you lose standing to an exploit that was never declared, and you can't discuss the exploit because it's against the rules. Catch 22 or what? I've never mission picked...in (nearly) four years I've never rejected OR failed a mission...but it seems harsh that something is not made known and some players have suffered from it. I hope they get their standing back...with storyline missions like "Materials for War Preparation" giving less than 1% standing increase (and I've had that THREE times in a row now...for THIS I did 16 missions???) it's going to take forever to get back any other way. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Moyra Rumsfeld	Posted - 2006.11.25 07:12:00 - [41] Originally by: Huitzilopochtli Tlaloc ... The reason it is not allowed is that it could allow people to replicate this bug to there advantage. Well, in this case it is obviously not possible to replicate this "bug" (since when is declining one or more missions a bug btw ? but ok, that's another story) as this was fixed already with the last patch, so i don't see a need to edit/delete posts or file petitions

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