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Mathias Orsen
Gold-dust
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Posted - 2006.11.18 10:05:00 -
[31]
Maybe I should start complaining cause there are not enough hours in the day to play EVE for 10+ hours, work 12 hours, sleep 6-7 hours, and do the things in between.
Personally the kali char creation is something that has been needed for some time... New players come into eve with basically no skills, no knowlage, and no idea what skills to train. Then if the player decides on something he wants to do in the game, he has to train skills before starting. Kali char creation gives this new player a fundamental building block to work on.
There might be info posted somewhere... But I prolly guess that the average number of skillpoints
(active characters) is around 8-10m, taking the new players into count. Countless characters with 25M+
New characters only starting with 50k SP is just underdoing it alot... For the average player that is about a day of training.
I can see the new kali char creation keeping alot more new players than it will loose. Considering that everyone that I have gotten to play EVE thought the game was complete crap to begin with and quit 3-4 times before getting hooked into it. Now new players will have the ability to actually start the game and do something entertaining.
Exacly how much fun is it for a new character to start EVE and want to get into combat thinking "After 4-5 weeks of basic training, I get to start playing"
And since that is exactly how the current character creation is, the first month really has a good reason for being "free".
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---"What's in your wallet?"---
"There are two kinds of respect, fear and admiration.... I'll take what I can get" |
Shin Mai
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:13:00 -
[32]
no official said that this really comes out, i hope it doesnt come out like this, because u never learn the game right if u have that much sp and it is really unfair to other players. This is like, a char who starts with 20 in wow, a too fast start isnt good (and u never learn the game. u can use all equip and get even tech 2 stuff but dont have the isk for any of those things, expect u are an alt char. And pirating in highsec will be really popular, with any alt chars. Only problems and no solutions. And if u are a noob and u like the game u wait for your skills, and then u are proud that u can fly this ship or u can use this gun.
Finally i hope it is only for the Testserver
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LongJohn Scr0tum
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:23:00 -
[33]
I think giving new players more SP on start is a good idea , but only if it is more evenly distributed.
The changes as they stand do not benefit the new player as they wont have the money to purchase the ex*****ve ships and Tech 2 equipment.
The real people to benefit from this change are established players with a bit of ISK to spare on a throw away PVP / Pirate alt.
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:50:00 -
[34]
I'm having trouble with this. I'm an OLD character (approaching 60 mil SP). I have often been in here rejecting calls for CCP to introduce methods for newer players to catch up with people like me. I suppose you'd expect that, I'm trying to defend my "advantage" if you want to see it like that, but I'm also defending the maintenance of the status quo...You can see where I am, you have exactly the same tools to get where I am, and so from the outset you know where you stand. In fact, a newer player currently would still have a SLIGHT advantage over me...I played for about 18 months where the advanced learning skills simply were not available...new players can (if they wish) train them immediately.
But now we are seeing another facet whci hI must admit I did not envisage...it's not an OLD player complaining about the change, but a relatively NEW one. He feels let down because he bought just long enough before the new system for it to affect him, but not short enough before it for him to decide to retrain.
It would be a lot simpler if things stayed as they were. Keep it the same for everyone, and tell those who whine that "OMG it will take me years to get to point X" to STFU. Yes, it WILL take you years. That is abundantly clear within your first month of playing. If you have a problem with that, GPQ*. Changes to the system just tick everybody off, and the few people they are pleasing with them are those who have invested the LEAST into CCP's coffers. I don't want to see EVE getting like mobile phone companies - constantly chasing new customers, and ignoring their loyal ones.
The ONLY "accelerated learning" program I would support would be balanced by a capped character...CCP make a measurement of the highest SP character in game (for example, currently around 70 million), and then make a simple calculation...if you want to train twice as fast, you are capped at half that amount of SP (again, for example, 35 million), with NO option to decide "OK take the cap off now please, I want to go back to normal leearning. You could even opt to learn 4 times as fast with a cap of 17.5 million...If you had your learning plan laid out, that would still be quite an effective character.
*Go Play Quake.
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Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Tdaan Sczow
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Posted - 2006.11.18 12:04:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Tdaan Sczow on 18/11/2006 12:04:10
 Originally by: Grey Area
But now we are seeing another facet whci hI must admit I did not envisage...it's not an OLD player complaining about the change, but a relatively NEW one. He feels let down because he bought just long enough before the new system for it to affect him, but not short enough before it for him to decide to retrain.
And you have a NEWER player in me that is not complaining at all. I could've easily a few weeks to start my character... but it doesn't matter enough. I'd rather spend more time playing than min-maxing.
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Doc Extropy
Gallente
Cradle of Freedom Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.18 12:04:00 -
[36]
I strongly support the 800k sp start for new characters with Kali. This will make new players an even more valuable resource (sorry for using the word "resource" on human beings but I assure you this is not meant in a pejorative way!) for corps and will heavily improve their playing experience.
I don't support people who don't want other people have a nice (and justified in my opinion) advantage just because "omg I didn't have that too!!!11eleven".
So, go ahead CCP and keep this in the game. 800k sp new characters is a big leap for this game, for the new players and for the existing corps.
Originally by: Fortior
Good things come to those who persevere.
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Godar Marak
Amarr
Return Of Red Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.18 13:32:00 -
[37]
Its pretty obvious whats going on.
CCP is on the offensive to get more subscribers. This is a win button when it comes to making the game easier to get into if you are a first time player. I bet the amounts of new players that quit the game drops dramatically.
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'\0/\0/\0/\0/\0/'
Cant we all just get along?
Wheres EVE heading?
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blacknight9
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.18 14:38:00 -
[38]
Edited by: blacknight9 on 18/11/2006 14:38:23
On the statement that the Devs didn't say anything about the new character creation i tell you otherwise. At the Fanfest one of the devs said that they are currently trying to help people who are new to this game.
As u all may know starting this game is very difficult for the new gamer. Only few of us remained during this trials. A lot of other people just quit and got back to WOW  .
The dev said that they want to get in this direction due to the demands from a corporation point of view. A CEO wants players who can help the corporation and help themselves. In this times (after 3 years of Eve) a new player has to wait to get afterburner, mwd , navigation and other basic skills to fly decent a good ship.
And i mean this are just basic skills. And for the new player at the current state he must spend at least 5 days to get the things moving.
This is the good point of view. The bad point of view is the side effects. Sure there will be more suicide alts, the more older players who will use trial characters to test some ideas, but new players will join. In the end it all comes to adaptation.
Now as to what VeniVici said i want to say one thing to him  in this game people who thinks in terms of SP are viewing the game from the wrong perspective. The game isn't about SP, it's about teamwork. After all the vets fly frigates too. U are losing the whole point of Eve. The SP system is just a tool to help u.It is not a primary objective.
I hope i shed some light for you 
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Yllse
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Posted - 2006.11.18 15:06:00 -
[39]
I understand where the OP is coming from. You want to be proud of what you've built and along comes some new fellow with as much or more without the work. However...
Loking at screenshots of the new characters
Linkage
taken from
thread
you can see that your real advantage is having already spent the time on learning skills. This char has learning I and iron will IV. They still have to go through the hours, days, weeks of acquiring the learning skills or their advancement will be much slower than even a slightly older character. Since getting the learning skills under the belt seems to be the most painful part of being a new player and juggling skills, I would hesitate to restart, even with more SP, and have the abysmally slow training rate that character will have until they, too, suffer the pain.
If I had a low SP character that I liked, I would be cranking those learning skills w/implants.
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Shin Mai
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Posted - 2006.11.18 15:21:00 -
[40]
yes, but u do not have any problems in doing lvl 1 missions, and yes giving a few skills is good, but not that much lvl 5, a small boost about 500k would be better, and with this u still can have a good ship that can help, and u can help your corp with tackler frigs with a samll amount of training time, but i think 800k is too much, even u cant purchase anything...
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Scilent Enigma
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Posted - 2006.11.18 15:23:00 -
[41]
Well I have to admit, this feels like a screwover to me too, just made my first 1mil SP, at about a month worth of training, and that month of training has been pretty much essetial for me to learn EVE, the ships, the modules, their uses, tactics on how to use them, the economy everything.
Things I wouldn't have given a drat about if I was given 800k SP to begin with. Things that despite seeming trivial is almost essential to learn to be successfull in this game.
With Kali they are given all these skills for free, almost a months worth of training, and us that have just joined get screwed since a months worth of training is what we invested to be able to use the more interesting ships and modules they will be using right off the bat.
Mind you, I think this is a good thing from the new players perspective in some ways but not others. What I react against is that this is a major nerf on the people who joined just pre Kali but have come just past the line for a reroll to not be an option.
If all things should be balanced give a boost of 7-800k sp to everyone who joined 3 months pre Kali, make their money and time worth their investment.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
The Nest
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.18 15:32:00 -
[42]
good grief. what a bunch of carebears.
Team Minmatar
Carriers need Clone Vats
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Minsc
Gallente
Phoenix Order
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:39:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Minsc on 18/11/2006 16:40:34
If you wasted the first 2 months of your characters life training Learning skills and nothing else then that is YOUR screwup. Though it's not really a screw-up it just kept you from actually playing the game and advancing your assets.
After Revelations is released, any new characters will have a slight advantage over any other character that started 1 month before it came out, beyond that the older character has the advantage. If you trained all of your learning and advanced learning skills then you are going to gain SP much faster than the new character until they have trained up their learning skills to the same level. Any time they spend training those is time not training usefull skills. Training the basic learning skills from 1-4 takes a miniscule amount of time in the grand scheme of things.
This all becomes a moot point after you play for a few months anyways, making this whole argument an excercise in stupidity.
Originally by: Sharkbait
please for the love of god read the dam stickies
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:41:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Scilent Enigma
If all things should be balanced give a boost of 7-800k sp to everyone who joined 3 months pre Kali, make their money and time worth their investment.
But then those directly behind those people would get "screwed".
"I joined 1 day before player x, he got 800k sp and I only this stupid t-shirt!"
Unless they give *everyone* +800k there will be always someone who is "screwed". Personally, I would welcome 800k more SPs as much as the next guy, but I do not see as much of a necessity. Game experience is more important than SPs, an that is something no mount of starting SPs can fix.
Also, as a sidenote, it is more like +500k SP. You can make chars with around 300k starting SP with the right training paths right now.
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Scilent Enigma
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:04:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Scilent Enigma
If all things should be balanced give a boost of 7-800k sp to everyone who joined 3 months pre Kali, make their money and time worth their investment.
But then those directly behind those people would get "screwed".
"I joined 1 day before player x, he got 800k sp and I only this stupid t-shirt!"
Unless they give *everyone* +800k there will be always someone who is "screwed". Personally, I would welcome 800k more SPs as much as the next guy, but I do not see as much of a necessity. Game experience is more important than SPs, an that is something no mount of starting SPs can fix.
Also, as a sidenote, it is more like +500k SP. You can make chars with around 300k starting SP with the right training paths right now.
Your logic is impenetrable, 5-600 SP to everyone who joined pre Kali. :P
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Mariafe Horta
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:22:00 -
[46]
.
So... all players (including existing characters) are getting the 800k SP bonus?
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VeniVici
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Posted - 2006.11.18 18:50:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Mariafe Horta
.
So... all players (including existing characters) are getting the 800k SP bonus?
No, but some kind of leveling would be much appreciated, or at least tone down the character creation to not hand out Level V skills like candy. That is the point. For all those still insisting I'm only 2 weeks worse off with the 800k SP character creation, let me draw you a timeline.
Day KaliChar RMRChar
0 0 days 50 days -- Kali Released
15 15 days 65 days -- RMRChar learns skills gifted to KaliChar at Day 0
44 44 days 94 days -- KaliChar learns skills achieved by RMRChar at Day 15
So, KaliChar is only 94-65 days behind RMRChar == 29 days behind RMRChar.
Or worded differently, RMRChar has trained for 94 days, but only has the skills of someone who has trained for 65 days.
Wow amazing, it's not just 15 days!? Why?
Simple: KaliChar starts with not only level V skills but also a good deal of learning skills already and thus can learn from the get go much faster. On top of that, the skills gifted to KaliChar would be much harder to learn had KaliChar needed to train them manually as their attributes and learning skills would then have to be taken into account (e.g. Training them as RMRChar has to).
This is the ideal circumstances in that mostly learning skills were learned so RMRChar can makeup the difference on the Kali gift faster. If RMRChar hadn't learned learning skills then he'd be in an even worse position (as many people will be).
And still I challenge all of those people who say "Don't like it then quit", and "That's not a big deal" to pay CCP your monthly subscription and stop training for 29 days. Let us know how big a deal it is.
As to all the comments about whether this will help the game or not, it doesn't matter. That's not the topic of the post. Sure char creation needed some love, but it didn't need multiple level 5 skills or mulit-rank level 5 skills out of the box. New players would still be useful to corporations if they didn't have a bunch of crazy level 5's. Again, Specialization out of the box is a horrible excess.
What I would like to see (probably more reasonable than gifting SP to everyone) is to see character creation toned down. For the most part level 5 skills aren't necessary for character creation except in special circumstances (Refining V for Veldspar Reprocessing), and those circumstances can easily be removed (Seriously, w/ or w/out Veldspar Reprocessing a new miner isn't going to make loads more money off of Veldspar in a Bantam if they didn't have the ore specific reprocessing skill).
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Alemca Goodheart
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Posted - 2006.11.18 18:58:00 -
[48]
couldnt be arsed to read the ramble going on here but i will point out something to all the new pre kali and the post kali char
this was the same issues when ccp luanched red moon rising all new chars got a skill starting boost if u will when they where created companred to anyone who started pre the RMR deployment , there was many ppl complanying about that so i ask wtf makes kali such a huge diff last i checked it was still an exp pack for eve and give just as much a boost as the last major exp did
ramble over
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Goca
Minmatar
Steel Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:22:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Goca on 18/11/2006 19:23:03
Originally by: Aramendel
To repeat myself, if you do not like it, quit. You will not be missed..[/quote
******* morons with attitudes like yours have killed sooo many games that it's not even funny..
so why don't you stfu?
I is Goca |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:45:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Aramendel on 18/11/2006 19:45:42
Originally by: Goca
******* morons with attitudes like yours have killed sooo many games that it's not even funny..
so why don't you stfu?
Quoting is difficult
Anyway, I hate that particular attitude, too, but this is a special case.
To explain:
Normally you see it from older players when new players ask for something to help them in the game. Something like "It's always been like this, we had to do it too, if you do not like it, quit."
Such a viewpoint is antisocial & stupid. If you think so, too, I wholly agree with you.
But: here we have a semi-new player complain about a new feature to HELP new players just because he won't get it too. Which is IMO in not in any way "better" the the described viewpoint above.
And I must say I do not feel the slightest bit like a jerk by telling people who cannot stand that someone else gets something they did not get* to quit if they cannot live with that. In fact, I would see that as general improvement for the game.
(* ESPECIALLY in this case were said person would STILL have a SP advantage over those new players with the 800k boost.)
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Cambarus
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Posted - 2006.11.18 22:20:00 -
[51]
I'm going to have to agree with the OP here, simply because I myself have only been playing for a month, though I've not really focussed on my learning skills (all currently at lvl 3) Consequently I have roughly 802k skill points. I paid my first month, and went through the trouble of training up all the skills, only to have someone who's creating a new character to get almost the exact same number of sp as me.
Now I'm all for giving new characters more sp, as I think it would make the game much more interesting (if I'd had the skills I now have when I started playing the game would have been much more interesting) but I'd like to see the pre-kali players given some sp as well (not even the same amount, but something that would make it not feel as though I've been ripped off this last month)
Oh and some of the responses I've seen here annoy me to no end. Get over it? Since when aren't we allowed being annoyed by something? I've seen this soooo many times, in sooo many games, and to this day I don't understand it. Just because something does not affect YOU does not mean that it doesn't affect others. If someone makes a suggestion (give older players some sp to compensate for the monstrous amount given to new characters) that does not hurt you in ANY way, why the hell would you go and argue against it? Assuming the new kali patch does give new characters 800k sp, giving existing players some sp as well would hurt NO ONE. If it benefits even one person, and hurts no one, why not do it? Regardless of how small the incentive is to do something, if it outweighs the negative consequences then there's no real reason not to do it.
Why "get over it" when the problem could be easily fixed?
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Andy Macoen
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:56:00 -
[52]
I've got a good idea for you, go and find a game that yet has to start so you can start playing the very first second it goes online and you will be the player who has the biggest advantage off all, en entire world for itself to exploit. And play then 24/7 and sacrifice every second of you're life to it cause otherwise you would loose that advantage and you have to go back to whining.
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Illistar DeathWing
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Posted - 2006.11.19 00:36:00 -
[53]
Thing is, you have your learning skills up.
If you started the expention at 1.3 mil (total of the learning skills at adv 3) and a new caracter in kali started at 1.3 mil (in anything but learning skills since you can't chose to start with them) That means that you will likely train two times faster then them due to your higher learning skills.
so 1.3 mil with 1x training means (about) 750k sp/month
and 1.3 mil with 2x training means (about) 1.1mil sp/month
so by the first month you'd be at 2.4 mil and the would be at 2 (400k davantage) and even if they start off learning the learning skills just like you, by the time they finish them you still would have been training skills about 30% faster then them untill they finished.
You will always come ahead if you trained learning skills before the expantion. If not however yes they will have beat you by 500-700k relative to their start time.
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Shayed
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Posted - 2006.11.19 01:47:00 -
[54]
this, my first character - born 3 weeks ago, has 812k sp
i have no intent to restart post Kali and would support a much larger starting sp boost and still not begrudge the advantage. if very high i <would> reroll, but 800k is a pittance.
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VeniVici
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Posted - 2006.11.19 05:11:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Illistar DeathWing
Thing is, you have your learning skills up.
If you started the expention at 1.3 mil (total of the learning skills at adv 3) and a new caracter in kali started at 1.3 mil (in anything but learning skills since you can't chose to start with them) That means that you will likely train two times faster then them due to your higher learning skills.
so 1.3 mil with 1x training means (about) 750k sp/month
and 1.3 mil with 2x training means (about) 1.1mil sp/month
so by the first month you'd be at 2.4 mil and the would be at 2 (400k davantage) and even if they start off learning the learning skills just like you, by the time they finish them you still would have been training skills about 30% faster then them untill they finished.
You will always come ahead if you trained learning skills before the expantion. If not however yes they will have beat you by 500-700k relative to their start time.
This is again a common misconception that I am trying to address over and over again.
In all of my presentations I assume the RMR build has advanced learning skills to level 4...yes level 4. I also assume that the Kali build will pursue a similar path as the RMR build and get advanced learning skills to 4 (which they can do faster b/c not only do they start with some learning skills at level 4 basic already, but they don't need to train any combat skills to play the game).
My numbers still hold. It will take RMR build about 15 days to learn all the combat skills Kali is getting for free while Kali build will only take 44 days to get to the level RMR is after learning the Kali combat skills.
This dictates that the RMR build (assumed to be 50 days old at Kali launch) will only have 29 days more skills than the Kali build after 44 days despite having been training for 50 days more than Kali. That difference is going to be rather larger than your 500-700k discrepancy, and will be much much worse for people who have not learned advanced learning skills.
And all this because there is some feeling that new players need level 5 skills. Name one level 5 skill that a new player needs to breeze through all level 1 and 2 content? or up to Cruiser Mining? or Industrial Trading?
From my own experience the answer is none. Dropping the Level 5 skills gifted to new players (roughly 400k SP), and removing the few token specialization skills given that use level 5 skills as a prereq (e.g. Ore specific refining), will do nothing to affect a new players success in learning and playing EVE. What that will do tho, is give a fair shake to all the players who joined in the last couple months, something that CCP should really consider.
This isn't an SP gift (which would be logistically infeasible), but will appease most of the angst caused by the new creation system. It is an easy and effective solution to show that you care equally about all demographics of your subscription base, instead of just giving gifts to one demographic at the expense of another.
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Protunia
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.19 06:28:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Protunia on 19/11/2006 06:30:03
Some how I think your figures are wrong. having a 50 day head start will always give you more SP no matter what. unless of course you dont train learnings.
A new player with all those nice skills are more likely to ignore the learning skills some which will give you more of an adv over time.
If you can roll a new player right now with 250-300k SP and after Kali 800k SP thats aonly 500K or so differnce.
So youre saying you cant be ahead of someone with a 50 day head start and only 500k SP to gain??
Somehow I find that hard to beleive. the only player I see that would suffer are the ones who have made a new character recently like in the last two weeks.
If you made a character 2 weeks before kali you would have 500-600k SP. Possibly more with the right attributes and skills.
3 weeeks before Kali?? more than likely you could have 700-800k SP
So saying you started 5-6 weeks ago means you should have over 1 million SP already unless you have ignored training skills at all times.
if you started a new guy with avg stats 7.8 and never raised any learning skills after 5 weeks youd have over 600-800k SP.
If you trained the basic learning skills to only +3 you have 900k - 1.1 mill SP in 5 weeks.
So again how far are you going to be behind?? when basically you have about 6.5 weeks head start?
Oh and thats not including any SP gained with additional points trough Implants.
My Character Stats |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.11.19 08:29:00 -
[57]
The problem I see is more along the lines that you end the char creating process with fully usable specialist pilots and not pilots with enough basic skills to get started.
Need a macrominer? Mining+Refining at 5, barge skill can be trained within a few hours or a mining cruiser off the spot.
Need a suicide ganker? Ready to train for big ships and T2 weapons and systems. Just make a new toon and get him or her into the ship on a trial account.
If the GMs catch you breaking TOS and EULA, you'll lose a full trial account. Big deal.
--*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing.
by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Murukan
Minmatar
The Priory
Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.19 09:07:00 -
[58]
just quit tbh. And then go cut yourself
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2006.11.19 14:29:00 -
[59]
Pity the mods didnt notice this one ^^
N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L |
Admiral Pieg
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 15:47:00 -
[60]
Again, please ccp change this great improvement to the game that will bring in thousands of new players just so that 1 month old newbies can be happy.
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Pod from above. |
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