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Looking for Clarification from Tripoli regarding "payoff"

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Melianna	Posted - 2006.11.20 05:59:00 - [1] In this thread I've asked players to stop coming to Rookie Help and advising new players to train up to Lv. 4 in all of the Advanced Learning skills first. The logic behind my request is stated in that thread. I've heard several people state that learning all of the Learning skills up to Advanced Lv. 4 has a "payoff" time of over 2 years. I stated that figure in the meat of the argument. Now, one of the other posters is claiming that I'm off my rocker by stating that - that the payoff is much, much less. Can you please state definitively what the payoff time is? The math to do the payoff calculations is slightly over my head (or I'm a little too lazy to skull-sweat it out). Thanks in advance. =^_^=
Riho Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolance	Posted - 2006.11.20 06:35:00 - [2] ppl who do that are kinda bit stupid.... if its theyr first char and they insta start doing learning. they should get some frigate skills first then train basic learnings to 4 and then get some more skills on what area they wish :) doing adv learning to 4 would be good to do in about 4+ months after start tbh then u can earn isk and blow stuff up while you learn the skills. telling totally new ppl to do learning right away is very wrong.. it will kill theyr intrest in this game VERY quick, so what u get a nice payoff for doing all the learnings at the start... whats the use to play this game when u can only fly noobships. thats how i see it.
Nukeitall Nukeitall Coterie	Posted - 2006.11.20 07:51:00 - [3] Edited by: Nukeitall on 20/11/2006 07:53:57 According to the original tripoli thread at the very top, it takes about 3 years 235 days for all advanced skills to pay off if maxed to 5. By my math (though somewhat off) it takes about 270(ish) days per advanced skill to pay off. (Note: I know my math is wrong, but you get a good idea that it is around there)
Jameroz Independent Frontiers Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.20 08:04:00 - [4] I agree that new player shouldn't train advanced learning skills to level 4 straight away because you want to actually play the game, but it's definately good idea to do them as fast as possible. Doesn't the high price kinda stop you from doing it before you're being able to make some cash? The payoff varies a lot depending of your stats and skills you're going to train, but I played around Evemon with 8/8/8/8/8 character and made plan that would take 500 days without any learning skills and Evemon optimized it to 284 days with all learning skills to advanced level 4 except charisma. This character specialized into combat so hardly any charisma based skills. But I'd say we're talking less than year for them to payoff... on long term plans you'll get bigger benefits by training the learning skills earlier. You would be stupid not to learn basic learning skills to lvl 3/4 right from begin. Level 5 of advanced learning skill is the one that takes really long time to pay off. __________ Jameroz Independent Frontiers is recruiting
Melianna	Posted - 2006.11.20 08:18:00 - [5] Originally by: Nukeitall According to the original tripoli thread at the very top, it takes about 3 years 235 days for all advanced skills to pay off if maxed to 5. nod I got that. Unfortunately, they're advising Advanced 4, not 5, so the numbers are going to be different. Unless I'm estimating wrong, getting all of them to Adv. 4 should be somewhere around 2 years in payoff time.
Joop The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2006.11.20 11:48:00 - [6] New skills will benefit immidiately from it Originally by: tiller my game style is to destroy everything I can with total disrespect for peoples property and own game style.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:07:00 - [7] If I remeber it correct adv learning lev 4 payoff was a bit above 3 months but less than 4 months. By 'payoff' I mean that you would have more 'useful' SP than without learning skills done (ie - in other areas than learning skills). Not sure if copraison was done at no learning skills vs. adv level 4 or was it basic learning lev 4 vs advanced learning lev 4. And yes. It is usually good idea to go for basic lev 3 or so then do some skills to use basic T1 eqipment and perhaps float around in cruiser or even battlecruiser and then go for advanced learnings. That way you can have some fun and earn you some isk for those skills while you train.
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:37:00 - [8] Originally by: Melianna Can you please state definitively what the payoff time is? I'm no Tripoli but here goes: First of all, it depends on a few things, like what your attributes are when you start out and if you use implants or not. But let's assume no implants (they are new and probably poor) and balanced attributes. Okay so they have 8 in each to start out with. We got two guys, fast eddie and slow sam. Fast Eddie takes all the basic learnings skills to level 3. So now he has 11 (+6% for learning 3) = 11.66. That takes him 1.66 days. Now he starts non-learning skills. Slow Sam takes all skills to Advanced level 4 (and learning to 5). That takes him 61.54 days. And his attributes are at 8+5+4 * 1.1 = 18.7 each. So how long for the payoff? At 61.54 days, Fast Eddie has been training non learning skills for 59.88 days. That got him 1.508 million SP. Slow sam has no non-learning skills but is going to get them much faster. They both will have the same amount of non learning skills in: 1,508,113 + t * 24601.511.66 = t 24601.5*18.7 > t = 99.17 days So at this point they have been playing for 160.7 days (5.36 months) and they both have the same amount of non-learning skillpoints. But Slow Sam is now getting skill points 60.4% faster than Fast Eddie. Hope that helps. -Bart
Shinshi Casoyako	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:37:00 - [9] The discussion is only worth for +4 basics or +4 advanced. If you take lvl 5 for basics you should atleast take the first 2 of advanced since this only cost you 12 hours or so. Dont worry about the pay just think about you flying that titan. You wanna do that christmas 2007 or christmas 2008? . Seriously Have I Not Said How I Can Assist Some One You Are Killing Online?
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:44:00 - [10] Well it depends on how you define payoff. If you define it like I do it takes a matter of months now years. When you come right down to it payoff doesnÆt really matter at least by its self its meaningless. Even if payoff is in yearÆs adv5 can be worth it after a month or two. To many people make the mistake of thinking payoff is years so adv5 is always a waste. Passive shield tanking guide click here

Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Pottsey Well it depends on how you define payoff. If you define it like I do it takes a matter of months not years. Let's not get philosophical. What people consider payoff is when you have more non-learning skills than the guy who didn't train those learning skills. -Bart
Jeneral Nimo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:58:00 - [12] I have read throught this and other forums and hear a lot about learning and advanced learning skills, however, I cannot see (which would be useful to the Noobs that the forums are purporting to be helping) a list of which are learning skills and which are the advanced learning skills. I know that the guide in eve says that e.g. eidetic memory is a SOCT advanced skill, but by the fact i am confused i think so may others be. So could someone please clarify if the following is correct in relation to the skills that are discussed in this thread: Learning skills: Learning Irone Will Spatial Awareness Instant Recall Empathy Analytical Mind Advanced Learning Skills: Clarity Eidetic Memory Focus Logic Prescence Cheers in advance "If you aint with me, then you're just in my way buddy ;O)"
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.20 13:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Jeneral Nimo So could someone please clarify if the following is correct in relation to the skills that are discussed in this thread: Learning skills: Learning Irone Will Spatial Awareness Instant Recall Empathy Analytical Mind Advanced Learning Skills: Clarity Eidetic Memory Focus Logic Prescence That's right.
Jeneral Nimo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.11.20 13:47:00 - [14] Thanks Mate, all crystal now "If you aint with me, then you're just in my way buddy ;O)"
Melianna	Posted - 2006.11.20 15:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Sir Bart Originally by: Melianna Can you please state definitively what the payoff time is? So how long for the payoff? So at this point they have been playing for 160.7 days (5.36 months) and they both have the same amount of non-learning skillpoints. But Slow Sam is now getting skill points 60.4% faster than Fast Eddie. I'm not debating or arguing the math, and I appreciate the effort put into it. But if Tripoli states the payoff to take all of the Advanced Learning skills to Lv. 5 as being almost 4 years, how can the payoff for Advanced Lv. 4 be only ~6 months? I suspect that the term "payoff" is being used in different ways...
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2006.11.20 16:15:00 - [16] Originally by: Melianna But if Tripoli states the payoff to take all of the Advanced Learning skills to Lv. 5 as being almost 4 years, how can the payoff for Advanced Lv. 4 be only ~6 months? Total SP Basic & Advanced 4 = 391,756 for 9 attribute points Total SP Basic & Advanced 5 = 1,024,000 for 10 attribute points That's why. Almost tripling invested sp for one extra point. Times 4 or times 5 if you do charisma too.
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.20 16:19:00 - [17] Originally by: Melianna I'm not debating or arguing the math, and I appreciate the effort put into it. But if Tripoli states the payoff to take all of the Advanced Learning skills to Lv. 5 as being almost 4 years, how can the payoff for Advanced Lv. 4 be only ~6 months? To put the answer even more simply: Because Advanced 4-5 takes 4.66 as long as Advanced 0-4 and only gives 1/4 the benefit. The return on investment is much greater for the first four levels. Washell already gave you the hard numbers. -- Science and Industry guide Eve and roleplaying games blog
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.20 17:12:00 - [18] ôLet's not get philosophical. What people consider payoff is when you have more non-learning skills than the guy who didn't train those learning skills.ö Why not get philosophical. The main point of working out payoff is to work out if itÆs worth training adv5 skills. But payoff alone is misleading and making people not train adv5 when it could be useful to them in a matter of months. I really bugs me to see someone in a chat channel saying payoff is 2+ years donÆt drain adv5 itÆs a complete waste. ThatÆs just not true. People who say öpayoff is when you have more non-learning skills than the guy who didn't train those learning skills should be sayingö in my mind should be saying ôpayoff is when you have more useful skills due to learning skills than the guy who didn't train those learning skillsö Passive shield tanking guide click here
Protunia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.20 19:03:00 - [19] Here we go again Anyhow I dont care how you butter it up there are NO skills the require ADV 5's. Pay off is 4 years for all the 5's and Learning 5. No matter how fast you think your getting better it makes no difference to the actual time. Also as you add those 5's you are barely raising your SP per minute for the time spent getting them. On top of that I Repeat NO SKILLS require Learning ADV 5's. Training Adv 5's is for someone who wants to say I have ADV 5's and thats it. Your better off blowing them off and getting Implants or making your character with the right Attributes from the start for the profession you will most likely be using. Again NO SKILLS require the ADV 5's/Learning 5 or that you invest in them and fall behind all those SP for 4 years. My Character Stats
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.20 19:22:00 - [20] ôTraining Adv 5's is for someone who wants to say I have ADV 5's and thats it.ö You no thatÆs not true. If I had adv4 I would be months behind on useful skill points over what I have now. I have proven it time and time again. ôAgain NO SKILLS require the ADV 5's/Learning 5 or that you invest in them and fall behind all those SP for 4 years.ö You donÆt fall behind in new skills you pull ahead straight away. You only fall behind in old skills. ThereÆs a big different between the two. You and others like you seem to ignore that. You assume you can train every skill instead of adv5 during the time spent learning adv5. Well thatÆs wrong so your findings are wrong. Your ignoring facts so your 4 year theory payoff works. Once you start adding in everything the 4 year payoff theory falls to part. Passive shield tanking guide click here

Protunia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.20 19:26:00 - [21] Edited by: Protunia on 20/11/2006 19:39:25 Look :) we know you trained them ;) give it up. Most everyone also knows its much better to simple skip them. Sure maybe 1-2 years later after youve completed the skills you really need to have for your character then possibly if you have No more skills to train that are of use. Other than that forget em they just aint worth it to train right off the bat. this is in regards to ADV level 5's My Character Stats
Tarn Minkan	Posted - 2006.11.20 21:04:00 - [22] Some people think training learning skills is better than PVP?
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.20 21:22:00 - [23] Edited by: Pottsey on 20/11/2006 21:22:47 ôSure maybe 1-2 years later after youve completed the skills you really need to have for your character then possibly if you have No more skills to train that are of use. Other than that forget em they just aint worth it to train right off the bat.ö Or you want to go into a new profession thatÆs been announced by CCP. So you train up adv5 before the profession comes out then spend 6+months training skills related to the new profession you couldnÆt have had before getting adv5. You donÆt have to play for 1 to 2 years and have no more skills to train for adv5 to become worth it. Anyone who goes into invention or any of the new professions with multiple new skills will find having adv5 now is better then having adv4. ôMost everyone also knows its much better to simple skip them.ö Yes for some people it isnÆt worth it, but when someone asks if its worth it you should tell them when its worth it and when its not worth it then let them make up there own mind. Not ignore the times when itÆs worth it and just tell them itÆs never worth it. ôSome people think training learning skills is better than PVP?ö It can be if you want to go down a new PvP tree. A good example is before carriers came out people said donÆt get adv5 itÆs a waste as it takes 4 years to pay back. The people with adv5 got to learn the carrier skills a lot faster then adv4 people and as you tend to spend 6+ months on carrier skills if not a year the adv5 people ended up a lot ahead of the adv4 people. All due to training adv5 before the new profession/skills came out. So the adv5 people got to do better and more PvP in carriers before the adv4 people. Its happened before and it will happen again. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.20 21:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Melianna Originally by: Sir Bart Originally by: Melianna Can you please state definitively what the payoff time is? So how long for the payoff? So at this point they have been playing for 160.7 days (5.36 months) and they both have the same amount of non-learning skillpoints. But Slow Sam is now getting skill points 60.4% faster than Fast Eddie. I'm not debating or arguing the math, and I appreciate the effort put into it. But if Tripoli states the payoff to take all of the Advanced Learning skills to Lv. 5 as being almost 4 years, how can the payoff for Advanced Lv. 4 be only ~6 months? I suspect that the term "payoff" is being used in different ways... I didn't think that learning advanced lv5 was the question since it's generally accepted that it's not worthwhile but here we go: If slow Sam decides he wants to train from advanced level 4 to advanced level 5 it takes him an additional 78.3 days. That increases his attributes from 18.7 to 19.8. In that 78.3 days he would have gotten: 78.324601.518.7 = 3.162 million SP. Level 5 pays off when: 3,162,693 + t * 24601.518.7 = t 24601.5*19.8 > t = 1331.1 days or 3.65 years (if my number is differrent from tripoli's perhaps because he used implants, or maybe different starting attributes). So the reason it's so dramatic is you are increasing your SP per hour by only 5.8% while it took you 2.6 months. Looking at such a small increase (even smaller if you use implants) it's plain to see why it takes so long to pay off the last 2.6 months of learning. -Bart
Insidi Us Amarr The Imperial Commonwealth Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.20 22:40:00 - [25] I think people should skip learning skills until they figure out what they want to specialize in. I'm at 7 million skillpoints, yet I only have 1 advanced learning skill to level 4 (the perception one). I'm paying for it now, since I added a ****ation to my EVEmon plan, and it's going to take a lot longer, obviously. But if I took off from the char creation screen and started learning all the advanced skills to 4, I would have quit out of sheer boredom. Getting advanced to 4 is more for alts or people with two accounts, where they have a more specialized character to play with in the boring time. I could not imagine flying that newb ship for a month and a half, just because people are telling me it'll be worth it in half a year. -----------
reched Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.21 00:07:00 - [26] im at sheer boredom, i've been doing learning skills basically since i started. i have approx 1.5m of my 2m sp in learning but I'm almost done and suprised i didnt quit. - reched
Protunia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.21 04:33:00 - [27] As far as maxing the learning skills from a new characters perspective. Play the game and get the skills you want and when your at a platue train a few more learning skills. the difference cannot be added up because you gain useable skills, ISK, Implants while not training the learnings and getting more useful skills. Overall yeah you will want to train learnings up more as you progress, but doing them all at once will only make you learn faster after you finish learning and in the mean time those that have decided to mix and match while they progress have more useable skills and get to enjoy the game more. Basically?? I would much rather spend 6 months getting to ADV 4's in learning then to spend the first 2 months training nothing but learning skills. You do not lose either way its just one way you get to have more fun and make more ISK and get implants faster. The other you spend alot of time training nothing but learnings. Btw ADV learning books cost 4.5 mill each something to think about. My Character Stats
Thaelan Deviance Inc SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.21 13:33:00 - [28] Getting the advanced to 4 or 5 is definatly worth the time, but you dont have to do all of them, if ur not gonna be doing charisma skills, dont do the charisma learnings, for example. As for new characters and learning sklils, again they help a lot, but i would advise them to get some basic skills in other areas first, so that they can play the game, but i would advise getting the adv to 4 within the first 4 or 5 months, it makes things much quicker.
JoeT Amarr Short Attention Span	Posted - 2006.11.21 14:19:00 - [29] Doing all the lvl adv learning takes the better part of close to 3 months, and if its you 1st char, i dont think it is wise to do that as you would get bored with eve real fast. I would say train up to curiser + basic learning 4 + a few extra skills. Spend a few months so you wont get bored with eve. There is alot of meat on the mid-class ships in eve. --- If i'm posting on the forums, it's mostly cause i'm at work :D
Pralay Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.21 14:33:00 - [30] Now you see why CCP thought giving starting chars 800k skillpts a smart move. [ go read kali forum if you don't have a clue ] It gives people some skills to play with while they learn to learn. Making this thread and most the arguments around it superflous. Pralay



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