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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16127
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 23:56:45 -
[1] - Quote
Bat Country are in agreement with this change. Next step you should nerf repair broadcasts to squad only.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16131
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Posted - 2015.06.12 03:50:16 -
[2] - Quote
Kazami Gouda wrote:players still have autonomy in fleets even if they dont warp them selves in fleet fights. Fleet warping is just a mechanic that FC's need to position people as quickly and efficiently as possible
-1
bad idea
All a fleet member does these days is anchor on target, lock the broadcast and press F1. They do very little, its the FC who does all of the flying. This is but one step to returning us to what it used to be like when a pilot actually flew their ship in a fight. I hope their next move is to restrict broadcasts for repairs to squad only.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16132
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 04:02:07 -
[3] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:SilentAsTheGrave wrote:Sienna Vanjarc wrote:Don't create boring space jobs (warpin providers), more kiting and don't make it easier just to farm kills (more stragglers, more fail warps).
Encourage brawling and hull trading, make the game more fun for everyone, not just the perfect organized, perfect skilled players. But I like warping around cloaked sneaking up on people, providing warp ins for my bros and zipping around in a frigate tackling stranglers and dealing with the enemy fleet frigates. It is really fun. I guess I'm playing the game wrong. Please share your fit! I would like to warp around cloaked, provide warps in, be able to tackle stragglers and deal with the enemy fleet frigates! Just not sure what ship will do all of this...
Pilgrim, t3, combat fitted cov-ops with balls of steel.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16133
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 04:19:33 -
[4] - Quote
Budrick3 wrote:
Poor attempt at saving face.
Rule of all holes, stop digging when you are in one.
Your embarrassing your alliance, the people that put faith in voting for you, and most of all, your embarrassing yourself.
The only embarrassing thing here is you going out of your way to be offended at nothing.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16137
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Posted - 2015.06.12 10:19:22 -
[5] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Seems that this is actually reducing the specialised role of a prober rather than increasing it. I currently use a dedicated prober in a covops (you know, a probing ship) and they warp my cruiser onto targets. If the prober has to tackle then the fit will have to be enormously gimped. And why? That's the whole point of them - to probe, not to tackle.
They used to be used for tackle before we got the fleet commands. It worked well then and it will work well now.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16138
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:06:01 -
[6] - Quote
Hudson EVE wrote:Dislike this change.
Serious fleets will ban noobs; Losing chance to gain skirmish exp.
Good, more victories for us. Bat Country are recruiting.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16138
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 11:26:41 -
[7] - Quote
Wolf Crownn wrote:...
In conclusion, it's more of a bad idea than it is good.
Only for people why rely upon the FC to do everything for their fleet.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16138
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 11:27:34 -
[8] - Quote
Invisible Air wrote: stop demolishing things that work fine Was this discussed with the CSM? Cause it doesn't appear you've listened to the player base and act accordingly
The CSM argued for it.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16138
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:37:54 -
[9] - Quote
afkalt wrote:baltec1 wrote:Wolf Crownn wrote:...
In conclusion, it's more of a bad idea than it is good. Only for people why rely upon the FC to do everything for their fleet. You're better than that Baltec - I cannot control the warp speeds in a mixed comp without a fleet warp. That's a pretty big deal and no amount of command and control delegation can fix that. Not everyone has the bodies to put a pre-places ship at EVERY warp, and even if they did, it's a ****** crutch to an unnecessary problem. It's a mechanic which was pretty essential to keep fleets as one that's taken a huge collateral swipe.
It returns us to what it used to be like and its how our corp has always done things. We are very excited by this change and feel that even more nerfs should happen to the fleet system.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:51:25 -
[10] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
Yes but back in the dayGäó ship warp differences were essentially negligible. This is no longer the case.
Moving mixed compositions becomes a chore. To what gain? Why the heck should I need to put a preliminary ship out somewhere JUST to make sure the mixed fleet doesn't land minutes apart, or have stragglers waiting on grid to initiate a late warp?
It's broken.
You can still warp the fleet to a player.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:14:39 -
[11] - Quote
afkalt wrote:baltec1 wrote:afkalt wrote:
Yes but back in the dayGäó ship warp differences were essentially negligible. This is no longer the case.
Moving mixed compositions becomes a chore. To what gain? Why the heck should I need to put a preliminary ship out somewhere JUST to make sure the mixed fleet doesn't land minutes apart, or have stragglers waiting on grid to initiate a late warp?
It's broken.
You can still warp the fleet to a player. I know, that was why I said I now HAVE to use a preliminary player to do the massively tactical manoeuvre of warping to a corp BM and waiting. What on earth is the point in that? It's an useless pain in the ass. It adds NOTHING but pointless delays and the need for another alt.
It adds gameplay to that preliminary player.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:20:32 -
[12] - Quote
afkalt wrote:That's clutching at straws and you know it.
Our frigate pilots just got an important fleet role handed to them.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:22:37 -
[13] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Querns wrote: You need to be a large wormhole group to afford interceptors?
Interceptors are useless since the targets already warped away after seeing your probes.
We already use probes to get warp in on these fleets, there is zero difference between what we have now and the future in terms of fleets running when they see probes
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:24:19 -
[14] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Torgeir Hekard wrote:baltec1 wrote:It adds gameplay to that preliminary player. Uhh. Yeeah. Right. The same way offgrind links add gameplay to the links pilot. Been there, done that. Baltec, I never knew you to be in favor of adding terrible game play. Acting as a bookmark is not good game play.
Terrible gameplay is having one person flying 250 semi afk ships. A scout frigate is fun to fly.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:33:41 -
[15] - Quote
afkalt wrote: You're NOT scouting, that's the point. You're LITERALLY a beacon to no split the unit. Fun it aint.
Thats scouting. Providing warps on the enemy, getting snipe points, burning a safe all of it is scouting and yes it is fun. Every fleet used to have dedicated scouts that did these things.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:38:38 -
[16] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote: No warpgates in wormholes , targets will be long gone before any fleet and/or tackle lands on a siterunner. Or the cloaky scan alt near it. Because they will see the probes... . Bascily you are diminishing the possibility of conflict by a factor of 10-100.
Warp to the site runner, no probes needed.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:39:53 -
[17] - Quote
Torgeir Hekard wrote:baltec1 wrote:Terrible gameplay is having one person flying 250 semi afk ships. A scout frigate is fun to fly. It's not a scout. It's a mobile bookmark. Scout is someone who gathers and relays intel to an FC. A mobile bookmark is someone browsing 4chan /e/ and alt-tabbing into the game every 15 seconds or so to make sure he's still burning into the void in the right direction.
Yes, making a safe on the fly is exactly what a scout does.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:41:48 -
[18] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Presumably before corp bookmarks were a thing. Again you're missing the point. It's NOT a combat thing, it's not a "burn me a rolling safe" thing. It's a "I can't keep a fleet in one unit to move to a corp bookmark". No, now I now need to replace that bookmark with a Red Shirt.
And how is that bad?
More content for more players in a fleet and a very important role for low SP players.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:46:41 -
[19] - Quote
Zappity wrote: You must be trolling. I refuse to believe you are so ignorant.
You can warp the fleet to players.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:48:24 -
[20] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote: Yeah but that is only valid in k-space, in w-space probes in space mean targets gone within 1 minute.
Same with every other area of space. This doesn't change anything in terms of ships running when they see probes.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:50:02 -
[21] - Quote
afkalt wrote: Can you tell me what problem it solves?
It helps to remove the fact that these days one player is effectively flying 251 semi afk ships.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:52:01 -
[22] - Quote
Torgeir Hekard wrote:baltec1 wrote:Yes, making a safe on the fly is exactly what a scout does. Nope. It's something a scout may begrudgingly have to do because there's nobody else to do that, but tries to avoid doing as much as possible. It's like saying that flying droneboats is fun, and then state that scoopdeploying is exactly what a droneboat pilot does.
Please come roam in our space, your gangs will be so easy to catch.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:53:52 -
[23] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Warp to the site runner, no probes needed.
You do know that you can not warp to someone not in fleet? What are you sudgesting ? Making the target part of the fleet?
So run sites in defensive fleets. If you are trying to catch them then there is no difference at all in terms of people running the second they see probes.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:55:20 -
[24] - Quote
Airi Cho wrote:Zappity wrote:
You cant tackle it with a prober and be a warp in for rest of the fleet?
Yeah, this is the alternative. Care to suggest any fits for probing bonused ships that would survive even 20 seconds of drone DPS? You need an expanded launcher.
recons, t3 (c|d), stratios, astero, covertops properly flown.
pick your poison. [/quote]
Interceptors work too.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 12:56:19 -
[25] - Quote
afkalt wrote:baltec1 wrote:afkalt wrote: Can you tell me what problem it solves?
It helps to remove the fact that these days one player is effectively flying 251 semi afk ships. Can you find me a way to manually coordinate fleet warp speeds today without a fleet warp? Didn't think so.
Warping the fleet to a player warps you at the slowest ships speed still.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 13:04:17 -
[26] - Quote
Zappity wrote: Expanded launcher?
Does fit.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 13:09:47 -
[27] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote: So basicly you hate hunting for targets and want it completely eliminated? The thrill of the hunt is what makes w-space so much fun, this change just eliminates that and makes it a pve paradise. Also you seem to hate pvp'ers and want only pve fleets then? Baiting only works for the first 10 engagements then you will get a name and no more baiting. Now we can slingshot a sabre with warp rigs(absolutly needed) and still get the targets only 1/10 of the time. After this change catching target will be impossible.
It fixes nothing in w-space it only decreases content, makes things more safe and tedious. For w-space this a a step back to before there were corp bookmarks.
Again, people running the second they see probes has nothing to do with this change.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:10:42 -
[28] - Quote
Torgeir Hekard wrote:baltec1 wrote: Warping the fleet to a player warps you at the slowest ships speed still.
Which suddenly makes all those 250 semiafk dudes instantly awake and paying attention?
Clearly you have never been in any large fleet.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:12:15 -
[29] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
Which has nothing to do with "semi-afk" today, or tomorrow.
The change does NOTHING mechanically for the players in the main body of the fleet. They're not now forced to "manually" warp because that wouldn't help. They STILL need a fleet warp. You know "that semi-afk" thing that was you said was the problem, hasn't gone anywhere with this change.
You're smart enough to know this, I'm done debating it with the devils advocate.
I said its a start to ending the FC flying a 250 man fleet alone. More changes are on the way.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:19:07 -
[30] - Quote
Zappity wrote: Yes, it does. People often don't warp fast enough and you can catch them on the align out. Please share your expanded launcher tackle interceptor fit, btw. That could be useful.
prober grabs tackle, more cepters arrive, bug out, fleet lands.
As for the fit, thats for you to figure out.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:20:59 -
[31] - Quote
Veshai wrote:It is currently YC 117 following the Eden Standard Time that was established in the year 23236 (YC 0). The technology to pinpoint a coordinate in space, sharing that coordinate with vessels nearby and organizing a coordinated fleetwarp is clearly too advanced for this time and age.
You have to dock to talk to an agent.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16141
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:32:34 -
[32] - Quote
Zappity wrote: Anyone with a useful fit? Baltec, the expanded launcher is the one with the really high CPU requirement. Just in case you are confused.
It would be nice if just for once people such as yourself spent a bit more time figuring stuff out for yourself rather than demanding everything to be handed to you on a platter.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16141
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:33:57 -
[33] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:And i still need to see any possitive point for people who are not part of 250 man fleet alliances.
Thats because you don't want to.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16141
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:35:30 -
[34] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Rowells wrote:Don Pera Saissore wrote:Junior FC for Spectre fleet here. NPSI fleets have a lot of newbros participating and they have to rely on the fc to keep them safe in some situations. Lets say im engaging a fleet and something else lands on the grid that i cant fight i have to quickly extract and get my fleet members to relative safety. After this update i will have to tell them to keep bouncing celestials until i land on my safespot and then order them o regroup on me. Newbros will get picked off on the sun. Jayne plz reconsider this you know how hard it is to manage a fleet full of newbros. you can fleet warp to celestials still. no changes there. But you don't want the fleet to go to a celestial, as the enemy might be there, or follow you there. You want the fleet to go to a safespot. How to do that, fast? You can have one fleet member sit at the safespot, cloaked. Sure, it gives a new role to a fleet member, but its not a fun or engaging role.
Scout/cepter/anything warps off, you instantly warp to that pilot while he is in warp. Why is this hard for people?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16141
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:41:15 -
[35] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Bombers will hardly be effected - they will just warp someone cloaked to the perch then warp the wing to the first bomber, do their bombing run then warp off, rinse and repeat. However, sniper fleets will suffer a death blow - snipers land on grid shoot for a while and then are supposed to warp to the next perch - but how are you supposed to know which perch the FC intends? There is no fleet BM broadcast. The only work around is to have some cloaky move to the new perch in advance of you - which is clearly awkward.
Use a few cepters to burn new spots.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16141
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:45:47 -
[36] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
How would that work with sniper fleets, since the targets will be able to see where you intend to go which is the exact opposite of what you want.
Everyone currently use this tactic and have done for the last 12 years for almost every fleet.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16141
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:51:25 -
[37] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Zappity wrote: Anyone with a useful fit? Baltec, the expanded launcher is the one with the really high CPU requirement. Just in case you are confused.
It would be nice if just for once people such as yourself spent a bit more time figuring stuff out for yourself rather than demanding everything to be handed to you on a platter. So basicily you admit it is not possbile.
Where did I say that?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16141
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Posted - 2015.06.12 14:02:54 -
[38] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote: Can't cloak, will get spotted on d-scan . Targets will be gone.
So fit for warp speed then.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16141
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Posted - 2015.06.12 14:03:42 -
[39] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:baltec1 wrote:unimatrix0030 wrote:And i still need to see any possitive point for people who are not part of 250 man fleet alliances. Thats because you don't want to. Pff, i can say the same thing about you not seeing the downsides of this. But that doesn't help anyone.
Difference between me and you is that I can adapt to changes.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16141
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Posted - 2015.06.12 14:33:35 -
[40] - Quote
SpaceSaft wrote:How is warping together with different sizes going to work now?
Say there is a heterogenous fleet of cruisers and battleships or cruisers and frigates and everyone warps, the smaller stuff will now arrive first.
Are Battleships just going to be slower than cruisers all the time (cruisers/frigs)?
Are forces just going to arrive out of sync on grid every time, guaranteed and we have to deal with that?
I.e. is ccp going to compensate for taking group warps away in some way and replace it with a new system...
like a warp confirm everyone has to press, thus "paricipating" (idk)
...or are they just going to rip it out?
Warping the fleet to a player still means the fleet warps as fast as the slowest ship.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16146
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Posted - 2015.06.12 14:43:52 -
[41] - Quote
Leeluvv wrote: Not exactly. The fleet now warps as fast as the slowest ship + the time it takes for the ship you're going to warp to to get there and be in position to warp to.
So use a warp speed rigged cov-ops or interceptor.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16155
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Posted - 2015.06.12 15:57:44 -
[42] - Quote
Leeluvv wrote:baltec1 wrote:So use a warp speed rigged cov-ops or interceptor. So you want your probing ship to potentially have no probing bonus and no probing rigs?
When did CCP remove cov-ops bonuses?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16155
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:05:29 -
[43] - Quote
Elana Apgar wrote:Dear CCP Larkin and CCP Fozzie,
This is game breaking for W-Space.
And here are the two main reasons:
The main game breaking reason is:
When travelling in W-Space AS A FLEET you almost always have to Fleet Warp from a bookmark to travel from Wormhole to Wormhole until you get to your destination Wormhole. Sometimes you engage hostiles on a wormhole, other times you Fleet Warp to a specific location, whether it be a safe, bounce off of a tower, a tractor unit/wreck, or even a friendly tower.
If we cannot move as a fleet, this will absolutely break Fleet engagements in W-Space. Just like in Null-Sec it is important to move as a fleet, but unlike Null Sec we do not have Gates on our overview or Stations on our overview. We use bookmarks for safes, wormholes, and POS'.
How can you seriously expect us to do anything in a coordinated manner if we cannot warp as a group? Have you even been involved in wormhole fleet fights to see how it all works? If you'd like specific examples of how various wormhole engagements would be impossible, I'd be more then happy to supply them.
The second reason:
When in wormhole space, you sometimes have to combat scan a small ship to kill him. And often times you need to "throw" a tackle ship at that ship you are combat scanning. With these changes it will be near impossible to catch a small ship because by the time your combat scan ship lands the target will quite possibly be gone, or if you tackle in the scan ship, it might not survive until help arrives.
I am strongly URGING you to reconsider how this change will IRREPARABLY DAMAGE W-Space before implementing this. W-Space in many ways is struggling, and this could very well destroy it. I really don't understand why CCP feels the need to have all changes in the game revolve around Null Sec.
Thank you for your time.
one pilot in a fast interceptor fixes your problem.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16157
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:54:13 -
[44] - Quote
Leeluvv wrote:baltec1 wrote:Elana Apgar wrote:Dear CCP Larkin and CCP Fozzie,
This is game breaking for W-Space.
And here are the two main reasons:
The main game breaking reason is:
When travelling in W-Space AS A FLEET you almost always have to Fleet Warp from a bookmark to travel from Wormhole to Wormhole until you get to your destination Wormhole. Sometimes you engage hostiles on a wormhole, other times you Fleet Warp to a specific location, whether it be a safe, bounce off of a tower, a tractor unit/wreck, or even a friendly tower.
If we cannot move as a fleet, this will absolutely break Fleet engagements in W-Space. Just like in Null-Sec it is important to move as a fleet, but unlike Null Sec we do not have Gates on our overview or Stations on our overview. We use bookmarks for safes, wormholes, and POS'.
How can you seriously expect us to do anything in a coordinated manner if we cannot warp as a group? Have you even been involved in wormhole fleet fights to see how it all works? If you'd like specific examples of how various wormhole engagements would be impossible, I'd be more then happy to supply them.
The second reason:
When in wormhole space, you sometimes have to combat scan a small ship to kill him. And often times you need to "throw" a tackle ship at that ship you are combat scanning. With these changes it will be near impossible to catch a small ship because by the time your combat scan ship lands the target will quite possibly be gone, or if you tackle in the scan ship, it might not survive until help arrives.
I am strongly URGING you to reconsider how this change will IRREPARABLY DAMAGE W-Space before implementing this. W-Space in many ways is struggling, and this could very well destroy it. I really don't understand why CCP feels the need to have all changes in the game revolve around Null Sec.
Thank you for your time.
one pilot in a fast interceptor fixes your problem. As has already been mentioned, an interceptor with no probing bonus is your probing ship now or do I need 3 people to do what used to be done by 1? Bye, bye small gang PvP in WHs.
FC ships have probes fitted already. I dont see where the issue is, if you want the bonus then just use a fast cov-ops.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16157
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:17:34 -
[45] - Quote
Jeff Kione wrote:Querns wrote:The knock-on effects to wormhole space may even be intentional! Right, because there was a problem in w-space that needed to be solved. That's just nonsense.
The problem is with fleets everywhere.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16157
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:21:32 -
[46] - Quote
Budrick3 wrote:
Not everyone chooses to fly in blobs that can warrant a scouting position.
People like you are the reason why titans get caught traveling solo.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16159
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:35:01 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi Mates, The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week. Have a great weekend!
Dont give in to the lazy, no surrender.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 21:57:01 -
[48] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:D'Kmal wrote:Dunk Dinkle wrote:...causing so many cancellations in the thousands.
Citation needed. We aren't at a real "EvE is dying" point, but yes, the numbers are slipping pretty bad from a late 2013 peak.
Citation needed.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 22:07:32 -
[49] - Quote
Theia Matova wrote:Querns wrote:HiddenPorpoise wrote:D'Kmal wrote:Dunk Dinkle wrote:...causing so many cancellations in the thousands.
Citation needed. We aren't at a real "EvE is dying" point, but yes, the numbers are slipping pretty bad from a late 2013 peak. Given that CCP doesn't publish subscription numbers, I find it difficult to believe you could actually prove this. Note: peak concurrent user count has poor correlation to subscriber count. You cannot release count of subscriptions as they don't reflect to real player count anyway. As many of the accounts are alt accounts. EVE will have more difficult time to attract new players as existing character base skill sets don't expire.. New players cannot virtually ever get on same level with old player. Plus for many players its impossible thought to even pay for one account. When they figure out you need more than one to succesfully do most of anything they will just quit. CCP should be worried about this and about keeping the game still attracting for new players.
You can do just fine with one account and you can only put so much SP into any one ship so saying new players cannot catch up is a flat out lie.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 22:11:34 -
[50] - Quote
Rayna 4 wrote:I don't see how this is going to hinder those alliances that can field larger fleets. They just coordinate better with the extra needed alts from the 50+ players they have in fleet.
Small fleets on the other hand were all the work was done by an FC suddenly have lost an advantage they had over bigger fleets.
ccp may hate bomber runs but I saw a lot of it helped to more equalize the field of small vs large fleets.
One of the most effective bomber FCs also just happens to fly for the group able to field 6 full fleets of subcaps and an entire fleets of supers and titans.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 22:15:37 -
[51] - Quote
didthat hurt wrote:Rowells wrote:didthat hurt wrote:Your initial goal from this was to nerf bombers: Since when? Since the initial post on page one, which was quoted in my reply.
The one that says they are wanting to impact all fleets and gives bombers as just one example?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 22:37:25 -
[52] - Quote
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:Tara Read wrote: That's a terrible excuse Manfred. Come on.... so you expect other FC's to force other people to play fleet jockey or get another account.
And while we are on the topic, it sucks that FCs need other players to do the shooting and ewar, and control the drones. Think of the poor masses forced to interact with game like this! Marech.
Oh how the they feel the loss of having the whole fleet assisting their drones to them.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 23:13:16 -
[53] - Quote
Sirran The Lunatic wrote:Want to command Fleets? Better sub an alt account.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$lolccp
Also, all this "rip bombers" "rip petes" garbage....
But yeah. Alt account$. Well played.
Or you could, you know, get one or two fleet members to do it.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 03:59:41 -
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Miner Hottie wrote:baltec1 wrote:Wolf Crownn wrote:...
In conclusion, it's more of a bad idea than it is good. Only for people why rely upon the FC to do everything for their fleet. So the FC cycles my weapons for me? Is able to press my jump key for me? Da **** you smoking bro?
Before CCP nerfed drone assist yea, they did fire your weapons for you.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 04:25:39 -
[55] - Quote
Adarnof wrote:CCP Larrikin wrote:Q: CCP, this unduly effects people who live in wormholes! A: Yes, and we're not happy about that. We have some systems and ideas we're working on to mitigate these effects. However we're not ready to announce those yet. Also pronounced "lol screw those guys". How did Fozzie sucker you into taking the fall for this one? If bombers are broken then nerf bombers. It's really not hard. Changing fundamental game mechanics to resolve a niche imbalance is not the way to go.
This isnt aimed at just bombers but at all fleets.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 12:28:05 -
[56] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:kraken11 jensen wrote:who wanted fleet warp to get removed? (or reduced possibility) someone in csm was pushing for it? or? im not totally sure about this. One Manfred Sideous of Pandemic Legion, CSM rep and if you want tin foil, CCP Larriakn is formerly Bam Stroker, of Van Demons Demise, a member corp of Pandemic Legion. It's almost as if currently people are working on mechanics they are familiar with, or have *abused* themselves in the past and see why eve be better off without it. Some rough edges still though.
Which would explain why the GSF reps are also pushing for this. Infact, most of the people who use these mechanics in a big way seem to be fans of the change, the ones who are kicking up a fuss are no name NPC alts and bad pilots who cant think for themselves, terrified at the thought of actually having to play EVE when they play EVE.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 13:00:57 -
[57] - Quote
afkalt wrote:And wormholers, since there's more to eve than nullsec and bombs - something oft forgotten But hey, the WH CSM argued hard, right? They are not happy with the changes so are revisiting them. That's why the OP was posted as such that other over-affected areas were still being looked at. Or not, only after the tyre smoke of the uturn cleared, did that become clear: making it obvious it hadn't been given a second thought much less a care in the world. Amusingly, no-one is really complaining about the impact in fights, it's about everything else that is crap with it. The scorched earth around what could be and should be a surgical fix. But I suppose those guys warping alts to missions or gas sites were a demon to be crushed too, right? Letting people warp to corp BMs would alleviate almost all of this (barring mixed corp fleets, but that's just another advantage to being in the same corp. Alliances need fixed).
Allowing them to warp to corp bookmarks means nothing changes.
We got along just fine before we had this command for fleets, back when probing took much longer to do. This isn't the doomsday you lot are getting into a flap about. Every single insurmountable problem brought up so far has been solved with just having a scout/warping someone there first.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 13:16:21 -
[58] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
Except the extensive propagation lag.
No more so than now.
afkalt wrote: If a corp BM remains valid by the time it propagates in a a fight, the enemy is bad and deserve everything they're going to get.
No-one said insurmountable (except OGB), people are saying bad for quality of life out of fights, indisputably crap for WH dwellers - collateral damage.
People are unhappy because the intended impact has far too much collaterl damage which is utterly apparent that they have given not a single iota of thought to. It's an exceedingly poor way to act.
Again, taking a scout with you is not the end of the world.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 13:35:33 -
[59] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Well then lets ban fleet warps to gates and stations too, should keep you happy. Scouting is easy.
And anons.
In fact everything which isn't a player and make gates need to be scanned.
Scouting is easy.
I would be quite happy to manually fly my ship in fleets given that I do this most of the time anyway.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 15:14:12 -
[60] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
How can you play so long and not grasp some really simple things?
I was around before we had these fleet commands, the world didn't end because you delegated a task to members of the fleet.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 15:23:51 -
[61] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
How can you play so long and not grasp some really simple things?
I was around before we had these fleet commands, the world didn't end because you delegated a task to members of the fleet. I'm assuming you still get on fleets. Where tasks get delegated. Or do they not let you on command comms anymore? Edit: also, I'm told you're just trolling people for answers but you really think this is a stupid idea. Good job on that ;) I don't appreciate the underhand way you are doing it though.
I don't think they have taken it far enough. I would like repair broadcasts reduced to squad only too.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 15:57:59 -
[62] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
Let's not pretend one FC can run a 250-man fleet. It just does not happen.
It happens in every strat OP.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 16:01:10 -
[63] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
You should try to get on your own command comms sometime ;)
I do.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 16:11:47 -
[64] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Worst change ever and all that because null sec dudes are unable to adept to the current situation.
The irony here is golden.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 17:59:34 -
[65] - Quote
Zen Tsai wrote:Who was so mad at getting outplayed that they lobbied this ridiculous change through? Whose ego is being catered to with this change? Whoever you are, HTFU you whiny space nerd. Those who are best at playing the game SHOULD win.
The people who won dominion sov called for this.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:18:50 -
[66] - Quote
Virgil Scipion wrote:I understand the reasons and the advantages behind this idea. But I dislike it a lot : it's a huge penalty for small roaming gangs.
FCs used a lot of their personnal time to scout a target area, doing bookmarks and using it to move their gangs. And now they have to throw all that effort to trash if they can't warp their gang to these BM. Sparing BM with corporation is not useful when half of fleet is not in the corpo, and small gangs have rarely ships to split from fleet to be a warp point.
Please don't punish LS for null-sec sins. I have faith in you, CCP, I'm sure you can find a better idea :)
So I take it you currently jump your small gang into systems without a scout then?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 18:20:04 -
[67] - Quote
Tatsuj Khan wrote:Some posters casually dismiss the serious concerns of wormhole residents, with pithy statements like get warp-to scouts to sit on the WHs in our chains. Imagine if system gates are NOT 'public' and you need to have scouts sit on zero on them for fleet OPs. For huge alliance such as the goons and pl with hundreds of ships at their disposal in their regions, it's not a problem. But for many much smaller, corps the changes are a problem.
Sounds like a perfect time to go recruit some new players and get them into low SP scout ships.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 19:02:11 -
[68] - Quote
kraken11 jensen wrote: the bookmark delay, and not to be able to warp fleet to wormhole bookmarks 'etc. would be an really big extra pain in the ass.
So have your scouts fit for speed.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 19:06:45 -
[69] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:
Sounds like a perfect time for CCP to attract some new players to the game so we can recruit them. That would involve not making bone-headed suggestions that make Eve less fun to play.
So that means you approve of this change as it gives newer pilots a very wanted fleet role.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 19:26:34 -
[70] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: You're assuming this does not happen already. People are asked to step up for scout roles and they are crucial for fleets. I don't understand why people keep assuming scouts and warp-ins don't exist at the moment. They do, and they do exactly what we're talking about.
Right now the FC ship is also the probing ship most of the time, they don't need an alt.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 19:29:17 -
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Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
You are missing something, you don't live in a wormhole from what I can tell... #1 RULE of wormhole space is what? CLOAK. what do scouts do? Cloak and dagger. What do paranoid wormhole bears do? put scouts at 15km from wormhole.
What you are missing is if we have a scout at 0 on a wormhole, as with gates, you are De-cloaked. enemy scout can see you, they are gone or now prepping an ambush. The element of surprise is a vital component in wormhole space combat.
What you are missing #2; Most wormhole corps don't have low SP counter parts. If you don't have cloaking 4 minimum, a covops ship you are either in one of the wormhole newb training corps or you are a daytripper. Some lower requirement WH corps entail.... about 10-12 million SP. So don't expect a low SP friend to do that.
What you are missing #3; As a person who enjoys bringing friends and others into games I enjoy playing, I'm not going to force a new player into boredom sitting his hide on a wormhole as a scout, he/she will be a part of the fight even if I think they will get killed because that is what gets people to stay in this game when it comes to PVP. That they are IN the fights, not hearing about it over the comms.
I question if you have ever left highsec because your fleets would be silly easy to catch. As for boring gameplay, who wants to sit in a fleet where one guy is doing all the work? A scout in a battle is one of the most action packed roles you can have in EVE.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 19:30:30 -
[72] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tappits wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Airi Cho wrote:... How does it kill NPSI? Newbies don't get left behind so much and as a result tend to live a bit longer. Teach them how to fly their ships then and ... Information overload. It is a thing.
New players absorb info like a sponge, its the mid term players who are stuck in their ways that are hard to teach.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 19:52:03 -
[73] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
Very rarely, when he feels ballsy enough to fit links, AND a combat probes, AND evade anti-booster hunters.
More often than not, one FC alt is in an off-grid or on-grid boosting ship that is just boosting in the FC/WC position. The other alt is probing stuff down, that the first alt then warps people to. Which is what this "change" supposedly wants to force.
Ask your skirmish commanders who are in 90% of fleets by count.
I am a skirmish commander.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 21:06:19 -
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unimatrix0030 wrote: And again you dismiss the serious concerns for a problem that does not exist now and will be created by this change.
I dismiss it because it is not a problem unless you are incompetent.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 04:17:10 -
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Zappity wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:No, this is not about killing your specific lifestyle but making people need to be present when playing. At least as far as I am confirmed...Be in the game if you be playing the game, yo. The problem is fleet involvement in nullsec? Then fix fleet involvement in nullsec. This isn't a problem in small gang lowsec, wormholes and your current solution is both a quality of life and a useful feature reduction. Fixing the problem of nullsec fleet involvement is good. Doing it at the expense of my gameplay isn't. Identify the root of the problem and address it rather than an indiscriminate sledgehammer solution.
They did identify it and its an issue with every fleet everywhere. Its not like this is hard to adapt to.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 04:32:14 -
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Zappity wrote: I do not want to adapt to it.
And here we have the real reason as to why people are against this.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 07:04:58 -
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Ayara Itris wrote:From a small gang perspective, it kind of ruins stuff as an FC. Before this change, an FC could carry a probe launcher on, say, a Confessor. With these changes, it basically makes it completely impossible for the FC to multitask as a damage + scanner, and forces the fleet to either drop a combat ship if they want to be able to counter people's links, or buy an alt, which is silly.
Having one guy doing all the work is the silly thing here.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 08:00:13 -
[78] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote: If it is so obvious to you, then please in detail explain what this fixes other than the two things mentioned in my post. I'm fairly certain everyone here would love to be enlightened as to what horribly bad thing, not mentioned, exists in eve that warrants the removal of the ability to warp fleet members to scanned signatures.
Q: CCP, why you do this? A: We want transfer more responsibility for the success of a fleet from its FC to its members.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 08:30:01 -
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Solecist Punk wrote:With these fleet-changes, it would be impossible for me to move around a fleet of -10.
Everyone undocks from station, warp to insta undock, fleet warp to scanner at target, gank as normal.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 08:50:38 -
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Dun'Gal wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Dun'Gal wrote:the removal of the ability to warp [alts] to scanned signatures. Is that what this is about? Why don't you just SAY that? Continue skirting the question, thats fine, it's clear you can't answer it. But to answer yours, no this isn't about warping alts to signatures - but if you must know my reference to signatures would be a scanned ship signatures, and warping a main to said scanned ship. This is my only (personal) use case for the mechanic, but there are many other use cases for this. As I pointed out, if CCP are this intent on removing interaction with players they may as well remove interaction with other players entirely. The only thing in the OP that is succesfully being accomplished is slowing down the rate at which players, can get to other players to shoot, which as I also mentioned provides more protection than what is already provided by halfway diligent directional scanning for probes. They suggest this will add more interaction to fleets.... for what, one person who is now your warp-in. Woopy doo, great job at getting the rest of the fleet involved. F1 monkeys are just as capable of pressing the one button it takes to warp to a destination as they are capable of pressing F1 (most of them anyway.) You are creating precisely zero extra interaction than what already exists, and they are creating an extra step/extra time for fleets to get on there targets that's completely unneccessary.
Other way around there buddy. This change means you have to interact with more people not less.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 09:52:12 -
[81] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:I suppose your idea of "more" interaction is telling your fleet mates to warp, instead of doing it for them?
Currently the FC probes out the target in their ship and warps the fleet.
In future the FC gets someone else to probe out the target and then warps the fleet to the prober.
That's more interaction not less.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 09:54:56 -
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afkalt wrote: the 'big' problem...I see no one is pushing for the anchoring abilities orbit/KaR to go though) and everything else takes the hit along the way.
We have. Also want repair broadcasts to only be seen by the squad they are in so logi gets a nerf without having her nerf logistics ships.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 10:09:55 -
[83] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:
And this was exactly the one, "extra" interaction I pointed out. The fact is this "extra" interaction can be done now. So this does nothing, additionally, in the future there is literally no reason for the fc not to do this, because once said warp in is on grid you can warp it off and ignore for the duration of fleet fight (read alt of fc.)
It is a lot harder to be running two clients then running one ship.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 11:10:20 -
[84] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote: If you say so, considering you literally only need to look at one at a time. Not to mention this precise thing is already done quite frequently, by solo pilots, in small gangs, etc. These people seem to get by just fine, dual boxing a prober and a main, it's certainly not rocket science.
So other than allowing a single fleet member to do nothing but fly a probe ship, warp to a target and wait for everyone else to show up, can you come up with any other reasons why this can be considered a "positive" change; one that betters Eve as a whole, instead of creating an unnecessary extra step and removing (in-system) ease of fleet movements for everyone.
You assume this is the end of the changes to fleet mechanics. The goal of this nerf is to get fleets to rely upon more than just the FC and it does that. CCP are doing the smart thing here and are staggering the changes so they don't all land at once.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 11:11:48 -
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Sumeragy wrote:Yeah... another CCP nerv against the player will.
+1 for Another nice idear you did because off why not ? BALLS OF STEEL and so -1000 Becuase every Member in EvE is in need of those BOOKMARKS and srsly why the hell Nerv Missions warpins ????
ps: sry for bad english german and so and even the german isnt perfekt \o/
I started reading that in a german accent before I got to the last bit
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 11:27:13 -
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Dun'Gal wrote:
Edit: and in reply to you Baltec1, I'm no so foolish to think that they do not have other changes down the pipe as well (they've eluded to as much in this thread already.) This one change though is completely ridiculous, and not one person can give any real reason, any GOOD reason for this change to happen. On the other hand there's 60+ pages of arguments as to why this shouldn't happen. So no, CCP aren't doing the smart thing here - the smart thing would be to say: Ok here's our "roadmap" for fleet changes (they seem to like roadmaps for other game changes.) So IF there is any real good reason why this change should happen in the first place, perhaps those of us who don't work at CCP and aren't limited by NDA can be let it in on the big secret thing that this change is presumably intended to help/hinder.
We have 60+ pages of people decrying the end of the world is upon us because they now need a scout rather than relying upon the FC to do all the work. Its hardly a convincing argument from your side.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 11:43:23 -
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Bethan Le Troix wrote:I give this proposal a -1. I see it ******* off the AFK multi-account miners further which is a good thing probably. I didn't actually watch the o7 broadcast but can you tell us what this proposal is actually trying to fix Also if you don't like people fleeting up why don't you just remove that part of the game along with all the leadership skills etc I does appear that current problems such as the need to iterate sentry drones and now this derive from PvP elements of the game mainly. Is there a way to fix problems within PvP without destroying the remaining parts of the game.
Q: CCP, why you do this? A: We want transfer more responsibility for the success of a fleet from its FC to its members.
They like people forming fleets, they do not like the FC doing just about everything in the fleet.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 12:19:34 -
[88] - Quote
The fix is to make things harder for fleets.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 12:22:06 -
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Zappity wrote: No. We have 60 pages of people explaining why this change negatively affects their game when their game is not the intended target. We also have 60 pages of you (and pretty much you alone) telling them to htfu.
Should they also remove warp to zero? After all, you only need a scout to go ahead and burn to the gate first. This is a similar argument - it would increase "player involvement" in fleets and be a complete pita for everyone else.
And here you go off the deep end again with your doom mongering. Scouts being needed for fleets is not the end of the world, if you don't have the numbers then go hire some newbees from a starter system.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 13:50:09 -
[90] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:well, one of my corpmates suggested a slightly different solution:
Allow FleetWarps as they are now, but:
- add a delay for executing the command. Lets say 15 Seconds in which all fleet members get a "synchronizing warp drives" Message. They can still cancel the warp during this time and warp manually to be faster on their target.
- synchronizing warp drives then also means, all the fleet is warping with the same speed of the slowest ship in fleet. So if you use FleetWarps, even your Frigs and HACs will be slow as Battleships if you also have Battleships moving with your fleet.
This way the FC still had "full control" if he prefers to have it, but at the penalty of movement speed
But groups with a higher level of organization could use individual warping to their advantage and skip delays and slowdowns if their members are warping themselves or by squads of different warpspeeds. They will land a lot faster on the target and can tackle... but they also have to hold on their own until the rest of the fleet arrives.
Options, Choices... Benefits, Drawbacks... looks like some kind of strategic value for me.
CCPs fix is better, it gives us a reason to use people as scouts thus creating more content for fleet members.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 16:57:16 -
[91] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:Leeluvv wrote:baltec1 wrote:
CCPs fix is better, it gives us a reason to use people as scouts thus creating more content for fleet members.
Please define the scout role as you see it that isn't already in the game and this change implements, other than 'replaces a bookmark'. Very much this. The pretense that scouts are not used exactly how this change supposedly will inspire is laughable.
Right now the "scout" is the FC ship that everyone is anchored on.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 17:23:57 -
[92] - Quote
Leeluvv wrote:
Oh, you're assuming that 0.0 PvP is the only PvP. My bad.
Yea because only null blocks are smart enough to abuse the current mechanics
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 21:47:55 -
[93] - Quote
afkalt wrote: No, they lack the rest of the metagame skillset to be successful here. How to navigate camps, how WHs work, the hacking skills themselves, the inability to defend themselves, training paths off doctrine paths not to mention the up and down nature of the profession.
It's a fine role for an alt to be sure, but as a newbro? No, it's the road to stagnation, frustration.
Newbros thrive, in my experience, in immediately training into fast tackle: It's easy to train into, it's skills useful in all ships, FCs fall over themselves for fast tackle and it's interactive and obviously useful to the fleetmates for the newbro to observe with his own eyes. Scouting is much less....tangible.
Not to mention a GOOD scout needs years of experience under their belt. The very best scouts have almost a 6th sense for the environment and that can't be trained, just takes time. At best a new scout will scare away the enemy, at worst they'll just get you killed.
Every scout was new at some point. How do you expect to get new scouts if you refuse to train them?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.14 22:18:02 -
[94] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
Because that ship can be in two spots at the same time? Dev hax, or quantum physics seeing its day in space court?
Kidding aside, FCs are either in probing boosters that have paper thin tank and never come on field, or are brick tanked on field, and never bother fitting a prober on that ship.
In the first case, no one is anchored on the ship and it is the scanning "scout" that this change supposedly bring about.
In the second case, he ain't scanning anything, and is warping his wing/fleet to his alt, cause he's the FC/WC and the prober can't do it himself. Again, the elusive scout already exists in the alt.
Really, friend, stop trolling :)
All FC ships have expanded probe launchers on them.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.15 07:46:42 -
[95] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:
Ok Baltec you have had enough fun trolling this thread but you have ceased contributing anything of use at about page 2. Time to pack up your bat and ball and go welp a megathron (I have an old Baltec megathron for sale in YAO if you need a spare).
You think I'm trolling but our FC ships do infact all come with combat probes fitted. Think about this, the organisation that has effectively won null and owns a good number of the best FCs in the game has put forwards this idea to nerf fleets. We are calling to nerf our own fleets because they are too easy to run. This change is not a hard one to adapt to but it does remove one of the biggest advantages we have in a fight vs the highly disorganized rabble that is most of EVE.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.15 09:56:04 -
[96] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:baltec1 wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:
Ok Baltec you have had enough fun trolling this thread but you have ceased contributing anything of use at about page 2. Time to pack up your bat and ball and go welp a megathron (I have an old Baltec megathron for sale in YAO if you need a spare).
You think I'm trolling but our FC ships do infact all come with combat probes fitted. Think about this, the organisation that has effectively won null and owns a good number of the best FCs in the game has put forwards this idea to nerf fleets. We are calling to nerf our own fleets because they are too easy to run. This change is not a hard one to adapt to but it does remove one of the biggest advantages we have in a fight vs the highly disorganized rabble that is most of EVE. Now you are just trolling. When did Manny join the CFC? He was quite enthusiastic about this early on the thread. As for winning null sec so what? What is a minor inconvenience for the Imperium and its blob of ships is difficult for small gang and god fvcking awful in wormholes. And still at the end if it all the justifications dribbled out by CCP don't pass muster when considering the wealth of real broken things to fix (obligatory fix POS's statement) or the broadly vaguely identified items this does "fix" bombers and probing.
Because having a dedicated scout is impossible to ask of a small gang
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.15 10:03:55 -
[97] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Rowells wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:baltec1 wrote: Also want repair broadcasts to only be seen by the squad they are in so logi gets a nerf without having her nerf logistics ships. Hahahaha! The way power creep is going with more damage and alphas? Are you nuts? which is in no small part a result of...? Take a guess. Feeding the "I want crowd" Logi haven't changed in what? A decade? Now they are a problem? Tier 3s, T3s, etc while the T1s languish. Newbies keep having further and further to go and that is disheartening. Utility > power.
Logi has been a problem for years now.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.15 10:23:44 -
[98] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:
so because you're overlord fc's have mastered fleet fights you want them nerfed so its harder for any upcoming/learning fc to engage in fleet fights? what a selfish thing to say
That is like saying it was selfish of us to tell CCP they needed to nerf tracking titans. We stand to lose the most from this change as our tactics rely heavily upon one guy in the fleet doing nearly all the work.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.15 10:26:16 -
[99] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:Solecist Punk wrote: ...random flames and butthurt...
That's all there is to say. CCP, this breaks my gameplay and prevents me from ever again FCing a proer fleet of outlaws in highsec. It reduces my gameplay to all that of the lesser gankers and there *is* *nothing* I can do to adapt. I can happily SHOW YOU if you wish so, just throw me an eve-mail at Solecist Project.
tbh, if your Thrasher-Ganks of capsules and noobships in Highsec are not longer possible, no none will cry a tear. "FCing fleets of outlaws in highsec..." ... lol... and I really did expect to find something innovative or exciting after your rant.
Best part of this is they are ranting at the corp that invented every tactic and ship fitting they currently use for ganking.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.15 17:06:34 -
[100] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lan Wang wrote:
so because you're overlord fc's have mastered fleet fights you want them nerfed so its harder for any upcoming/learning fc to engage in fleet fights? what a selfish thing to say
That is like saying it was selfish of us to tell CCP they needed to nerf tracking titans. We stand to lose the most from this change as our tactics rely heavily upon one guy in the fleet doing nearly all the work. yeah that was a pretty sh!t thing to say on my part and tbh i cant even think of any sort of comeback because it was so terrible, sorry i actually dont really know why i even posted that.
You are a rare gem.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.15 17:20:27 -
[101] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:
Nope. Now you're just dodging the real issue (wormholes) and being that guy :getout:
Wormholes operate in the same way as any other area of space when it comes to scanning stuff down with scouts. If anything WH entities should have an advantage after this change in having more experienced probing pilots per head in their organisations.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.15 21:01:52 -
[102] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:
As always we adapt - So the new method will be
After scanning jump out of the Buzzard into the Domi Wait 10mins for the bookmarks to update Check that the 2 other fleet members have the bookmarks Announce jump to XXX at 20km Announce 3-2-1 Warp
It just seems like there's a lot more needless stuff than click "warp fleet"
Scan target, warp buzzard to it, warp the fleet to the buzzard.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.15 21:04:26 -
[103] - Quote
holdmybeer wrote:My concerns about these changes are all in high-sec.
As someone with very low security status, it's going to be extremely tedious to be in fleet and coordinate good warp-ins on top of a target in high-sec, who are carrying my assets but don't still know it. There are problems I immediately see
Flying in low/null sec is probably manageable, as you can sit still in space for as long as you like, without getting destroyed by NPCs if you don't warp right away as you land or right after you shoot. Sure, I could command the fleet to "warp to x in 3, 2, 1.." that's how I command them to press the undock button, but then I would need to trade all new fleet members my bookmarks, I'd have to be doing this constantly.
As an FC I do however have a way around this: Warping my alt or other fleet members characters first to the bookmarks I want to use only so I can warp the fleet to it right after. This is the only way to keep the fleet together as it is absolutely crucial for me and my whole alliance in high-sec. I can just imagine myself explaining the mechanics to others and saying like "Oh yeah, we used to be able to warp into bookmarks before as a fleet, but now you have to fill in the role of a bookmark instead of shooting ships. Sorry bro" (In my opinion it's a horrible idea giving fleet members the role of a bookmark.)
These changes will simply force me to do more work as FC for the fleet to be successful, since high-sec mechanics are preventing my fleet members to navigate properly on their own.
Is this intentional, or will you have systems and ideas for high-sec, just like you have them for wormholes? I would hope that we could atleast warp into bookmarks as a fleet when in high-sec.
In terms of ganking nothing changes. Everyone undocks, warp to insta-undock safe, fleet warp to ship scanner guy, gank.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.15 21:48:42 -
[104] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:@baltec1 Quick[1] question: IIRC, somewhere in this thread, didn't you state that you can fleet warp to a ship that's already in warp?
Does the fleet warp to the target ship-still-in-warp's current location, or the destination location of the warp?
[1] Quick, dumb, potato, potatoe...
Current location. Get a fast ship to warp around in a triangle, have the fleet make their own safe and you wind you with stuff everywhere. Makes scanning stuff a real pain for the enemy.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 11:40:40 -
[105] - Quote
kyoukoku wrote:This nice article by Talvorian Dex, on Target Caller's blog, about the change got linked to in /r/eve an hour ago, so I thought it should be linked here for CCP to take notice of.
He doesn't get the change right off the bat. This change isn't meant to alter everything, its a very targeted change aimed at one thing. The whole point is to stop The FC being the scout too and to remove their ability to probe out a target and warp the entire fleet to it on their own. This is only the first of many changes likely to come.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 12:54:56 -
[106] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:afkalt wrote:Ben Ishikela wrote:Providing warpins is a very fun activity. Its get the heart pumping. Everyone is relying on you. Here you can show off your skills and make the warpin even closer and better (ofc at more risk). But it is overshadowed by current fleetwarps in combination with probing. Its hardly needed currently. Go move a mixed fleet through thera, repeatedly. Let me know how "fun" it is. I'll agree, it IS very much good in combat, but day to day movement? It's absolutely NO FUN being a mobile bookmark, or waiting on said bookmark landing with your junk hanging out. You could always warp to your "BM" while he is still mid warp so you don't have to keep your junk hangning out. Pretty sure he count as a valid target as long as he is at least 150KM away. Is using 2 warp instead of just one hard?
Or use a warp speed fitted interceptor/cov ops.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 12:56:21 -
[107] - Quote
gascanu wrote:oh, so squad warping my 2 member fleet to a mission is "power projection" now, is it? like really, i can understand some of the reasons behind this nerf, but ccp approach on this matter seems something like: "you can't fix something? you need a bigger hammer then" ...
Because waiting a few more seconds is the end of the world for mission runners.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 14:26:10 -
[108] - Quote
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole.
Yet off grid boosters are a thing. We also have cyno ships, supercarrier pilots who spend 90% of their time sitting in the staging system waiting for a call that never comes and haulers who carry around POS and other structures. Being a scout is a lot more entertaining that all of those activities.
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote: being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts.
No probes means you dont have as much freedom to move around the battle which means you have less options.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 14:46:17 -
[109] - Quote
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
We fought one of these shiny hole fight last night with Team Pizza, was good. as for moving around, everything was on the hole except for 5 ships orbiting at 50. you are not going to warp to that nor off the hole. being on the hole is a tactic that when you are about to die you go thru the hole. scouts were useless and there were none.
And in W-space, off grid boosters are not common as your fancy nullsec. we primary gank squads and on the occasion get to have a brawl. there were about 30 people total. no of grid boosts. instead they went for a carrier. Also I am yet to see a cyno ship in a wormhole. that is also a nullsec thing.
Im not saying scouts are utterly useless, I am saying that in w-space you get much more of the small group type content that btw is in all parts of EVE, not just w-space. and that scouts often are going home to reship into dps or logi in the case we find ex: 3 ratting gila's. you drop a bookmark close to them and go get a dictor, dps, and logi.
so in future you leave a cloaked ship at the target and call for help. Seems to me that this change makes very little difference to you in WH.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 14:52:37 -
[110] - Quote
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
How fun is it to spend 15 minutes calculating your cruisers, logi, and battlecruisers so you know who needs to warp first, second, last so that the enemy does not alpha your smaller ships or logi before the whole fleet arrives?
You can still fleet warp as you do now.
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote: How fun is it to have to wait for bookmarks to propagate when your target could leave at any moment?
You dont wait for bookmarks, you wait a few seconds for a scout to ping.
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote: How fun is it to have to trade bookmarks constantly in order to get things done 'efficiently'?
Already happens, no change here.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 16:26:49 -
[111] - Quote
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:so in future you leave a cloaked ship at the target and call for help. Seems to me that this change makes very little difference to you in WH.
Unlike you and what seems to be most people in eve, I dont have 2 accounts. I have 1 account. I am also a scout. many newbros dont have alt accounts either. so just sitting there all day does nothing. Also please keep in mind that in cases of ratting/gassing there are many things that will decloak you if you get too close. so sometimes the best you will get is 20-40 kilometers. hence why warping to bookmarks is important. you bookmark their gas cloud they are in/ you bookmark their MTU and warp to it when they go to scoop it. many tricks that we use these BM's for because we can't get close.
I also have a job and a life outside EVE, im never going to have a plex'd alt account nor intend to in the future. I see no reason to have an alt account and with this change most people will find them mandatory just for the sake of warp in.[/quote]
I have one pvp account, I work 60-80 hours a week, I enjoy BBQs and going down the local as much as the next bloke and I have never plexed an account. None of these are valid excuses.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 16:30:48 -
[112] - Quote
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:You could always ask your FC to fleetwarp you to the scout and not ahve to deal with calculating warp speed, waitign for BM or trading BM...
And there is the problem that I have noted that you are ignoring, and that is that in many situations the scout cannot be on top of the target without being de-cloaked. Even with very fast scouts, you still have to keep in mind that de-cloaking with most likely end the element of surprise and possibly allow them to escape entirely. as I said earlier, bookmark their MTU or the can they are hacking or the cloud they are sitting in or the asteroid they are next to allows us to drop on top of them before they finish their site. or in the case of MTU's, drop on them when they have finished killing rats and before they can warp off.[/quote]
If only there was a cloaky ship with bonused longpoints....
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 17:13:12 -
[113] - Quote
Executor Ardur wrote:kyoukoku wrote:This nice article by Talvorian Dex, on Target Caller's blog, about the change got linked to in /r/eve an hour ago, so I thought it should be linked here for CCP to take notice of. Good article, to the heart of the problem. These changes are been rushed and virtually no thought has been put of the impact. Its lets do X and screw everyone else. We are going back to 2007 and without taking into concideration other changes in game that has happened since then.
No, its a bad article as it makes wrong assumptions, does not understand what is being targeted and fails to see just how easily this can be adapted to.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 17:38:26 -
[114] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole. being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts.
A great point. At best, it will be the extra alt the FC has been forced to make, unless s/he uses such an alt already. At worst, it will be an otherwise active pilot being hamstrung into becoming a mobile bookmark instead of actually enjoying the game the way s/he wanted to.
What is more enjoyable with anchoring on the FC, targeting what he calls and pressing f1?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 17:56:35 -
[115] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
But DUUUUUDE!!!!!! I get to be on the killmail while the scout might not.
People don't want to be "just a scout" for the exact same damn reason the SRP manager somehow had to include a damn rule about no guns on logi.
Muuuuuuuh killboard!!!!!!
The need for green is real.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 21:18:17 -
[116] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Your "not dead weight" crowd will still get their fleet warp at the end of the day so their gameplay is not affected. The FC will be able to deal with it as long as his group is willing to train people into the required roles. If they are not willing, I guess they will get defeated by the side who does... So.. given that FCs are currently willing to train new scouts anyway, what's the point of this change then?
To stop the FC ship from being the scout in a battle.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 21:27:14 -
[117] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:baltec1 wrote:To stop the FC ship from being the scout in a battle. We covered this red herring already here and here.
All you did earlier on is show you have no idea how our fleets work.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 22:05:18 -
[118] - Quote
joecuster wrote: All these bads.... I mean casuals come crawling out of the wood work to run their mouths about things they don't have a very good understanding of.
It makes you wonder what their rage is going to be like when the logi nerf lands.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.16 22:54:27 -
[119] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote: I have yet to see you spout another solution to this conundrum.
What makes you think there should be a way around this? The whole point is to make you use dedicated probers.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.17 11:23:03 -
[120] - Quote
Jellyfish Original wrote:Maybe CCP should restore the old mechanic on developers experiencing the game, which developers can have regular accounts. Then we are sure that it is not that someone who does not play eve developing it.
CSM asked for this
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.17 16:19:34 -
[121] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/
It doesnt. Cant warp around the grid and entosis at the same time.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.17 20:55:32 -
[122] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Rowells wrote:Arrendis wrote:stoicfaux wrote:How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/
Well, it does mean that if you can build something that moves fast enough and targets far enough, they're gonna have a ***** of a time warping their tacklers onto you... Fortunately, anything filling that description has other viable counters. I had a talos orbiting 200-250 at 6km/s and a barghest almost ended that escapade. Yeah... I've been playing w/the idea of a high-speed ECM ship... someone locks you to stop your entosising, jam 'em.
Interceptor armed with sensor damp does the job easily enough.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.17 22:23:47 -
[123] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You can get around most of those defense with number, You can only fit so many damps on an inty or ECM mods on an ECM ship after all. Oh look, the solution is again the same as to many problems...
If they bring numbers the FYF will take over.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.17 22:47:38 -
[124] - Quote
Rekatan wrote:Listening to the Q&A has been extremely frustrating... Every time a good compromise is suggested "ya, but that won't meet our goals with bombing runs" is the response... This should indicate to you Larrikin that bombing runs need to be addressed by specifically working with the bomber. Why they are getting lumped into this goal of making pilots more active is beyond me. The two goals clearly require two separate solutions, and it feels extremely lazy that compromises like squad warp being retained, or a delayed fleet warp "spool up" mechanic aren't being considered, solely because you're trying so hard to kill 2 or even 3 birds with 1 stone.
Nobody has managed to cook up a direct nerf to bombers that doesn't make them utterly useless. All of the "compromises" also result in even bigger nerfs to fleet warping. How exactly is squad warping easier to live with than warping the whole fleet to a scout?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.17 22:49:00 -
[125] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Off topic, what would happen if 2 FYF faced off? Fastest locker win?
It would be a battle between two rocks to see which one the wind erodes away first.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.17 22:56:36 -
[126] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Off topic, what would happen if 2 FYF faced off? Fastest locker win?
It would be a battle between two rocks to see which one the wind erodes away first. Reductio ad Celestisums. I don't even know what to think of this now...
I does fit into the mantra of no fun allowed.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 10:13:12 -
[127] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Interceptor armed with sensor damp does the job easily enough. No, it doesn't - can't fit a T2 entosis link. With the smaller entosis range, it's a lot easier to sit a gallente recon w/a sebo to scram it and kill it.
I wasn't fitting an entosis on it, It was simply to disrupt the other guy.Turns out its not terribly hard to deal with enemy entosis gangs.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 10:21:11 -
[128] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:afkalt wrote:This one nails it for me. Quote:CCP Larrikin: Let's talk about combat warping, such as joining a fight on POS or Wormhole. You won't land all at the same time, and that is one of our stated design goals. People participating instead of being warped around with perfect precision is exactly what we want. We want to give room for skilled fleets rather than skill FC's to shine.
Someone want to educate me in how I can SLOW DOWN my warp speed by using my "skills" please. Anyone? Hello......? See, what will happen is the FC will get his alt into position, and then warp the fleet to that alt at the right range. This will fulfill none of the stated goals because: - the alt is the FC's and he will have to do more work for the same result. - if the alt is not the FC, that dude is now a mobile bookmark and will sit out the fight waiting to provide the next warpin, whereas he would have been a logi or dps or something he enjoys. (Note that if he enjoyed being a scout he would have been one already..) - the average Joe in fleet is participating no more than before, since he's still being warped around. He does face a lower quality of life, as he is sitting on his hands for that much longer.
If you don't want to be a scout then dont be one, to say you are nothing more than a boring mobile bookmark though is a lie. This is how we used to do things and there was a lot of people who had fun with it. It is one of the most active jobs you could have in a fleet and a damnsight more engaging than ctrl-click next broadcasted target.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 10:46:49 -
[129] - Quote
Zappity wrote:So Larrikin confirmed in the wormhole whatsit that he had not thought about the tight timing involved in catching bears in wormhole sites. This is also an issue in nullsec. If you have to combat scan you are on the clock.
While I understand the goals I do not want this play style hurt by these changes. I hope that CCP's wormhole solution (assuming there is one) is also applicable in null so I have a chance at catching people under these circumstances.
Please at least consider reducing the fitting requirements of Expanded Probe launchers so I don't have to use a T3 to scan and tackle.
Use a cov-ops.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 11:49:39 -
[130] - Quote
Zappity wrote: To tackle? Lol
Why not? We use just as flimsy interceptors, t1 frigates and Ewar frigs.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 14:36:58 -
[131] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:Offloading some fleet movement to the FC frees fleet members to make other tactical decisions rather than spending all their time following lots of trivial orders. EVE is a complicated game and if fleet members aren't already using their brains, they're underperforming. Apart from the warp change breaking multiple playstyles, wormhole life and -10 highsec fleets, nerfing fleet warping or indeed anchoring doesn't change the skill cap, it changes the skill floor and effectively excludes more people from fleets.
If your goal is to increase "fleet participation", driving everyone but another FC alt away from fleets is a terrible way to go about it.
That post is a fine example of telling if someone has no experience in fleets.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 16:49:20 -
[132] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:baltec1 wrote:If you don't want to be a scout then dont be one, to say you are nothing more than a boring mobile bookmark though is a lie. This is how we used to do things and there was a lot of people who had fun with it. It is one of the most active jobs you could have in a fleet and a damnsight more engaging than ctrl-click next broadcasted target. Except, as one of your own alliance mates points out, this task will be completed by the FC, and therefore do jack all for the average fleet member.
It can be but doesnt mean it will be. FCs tend to lose their cov ops alts a lot which is why they fly FC ships with probe launchers. There will be a need for multiple scouts in fleets and an FC cannot fly that many things.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 16:53:35 -
[133] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Zappity wrote: To tackle? Lol
Why not? We use just as flimsy interceptors, t1 frigates and Ewar frigs. With that covops also playing the role of being the linchpin for positioning the fleet, it's a great way to make sure that they all go home after it dies waiting for its fleetmates to land. Unless it's going for something like a badger or a shuttle, I suppose.
So bring more than one.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 17:16:33 -
[134] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: *** - HIDDEN STEALTH TRICK QUESTION: Baltec's actually flying his HARPYFLEET fit, so his Megathron Navy Issue warps at the same 5.5 au/s as an assault frigate, with similar velocity/agility numbers. (really, Baltec, I love those insane fits of yours.)
Fun fact, I have a commandthron that can double up as a scout prober :getin:
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 17:33:15 -
[135] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote:Idea:
Let's assume for a second that this all goes through.
Please allow players to manually set their warp-speed in order to be able to warp at similar speed as the rest of your fleet. That way we can control our arrival time somewhat acceptably, and not have the Guardians land 20 seconds before the DPS (or other way around).
Please?
Just use a cloaky scout and fleet warp to it. Works the say way it currently does.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 17:35:48 -
[136] - Quote
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:baltec1 wrote:So bring more than one. I suspect people won't do much of that for the same reason they don't use covops as tackle in a gate camp, or roaming fleet.
They dont currently because they dont need to. We used them in the past, we will use them in the furture when this lands. In terms of adapting to change this is an easy one.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.18 17:57:02 -
[137] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote:
I am a wormhole player, which means I need to be able to warp to my bookmarks at 0. A cloaky scout will never be at 0 on the hole when a hostile fleet is present, which means you need insane amounts of effort to get warp-ins behind/around the wormhole even if that wormhole has no other celestials in the direction where your bookmark is.
If we would purely follow your suggestion, it would be extremely cumbersome for anything to be done and really kill the fun.
You can warp to 0 on a cloaky.
Simply tell it when you enter warp so it can move out of the way.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:04:25 -
[138] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:Rain6637 wrote: Independents won't know any different, I think it will miss them for the most part.
Players who understand what's going on in space around them should like the removal of piloting automation. I hope drone assist is next to go. Yes, completely.
Yes, more of this arguing with the man, not the message. Automation is bad, sure. Deciding to make changes without actually playing the game being changed is even worse. This is what these threads are for, is to discuss what's being changed. Not to demand to know who people are. CCP knows what accounts I have... and I'm pretty sure they ignore all this "Post with your main" nonsense accordingly.
They do play the game, just not on their old accounts.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:13:34 -
[139] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:
I don't think they do at all levels.
Doesn't matter what you think, fact is they do play EVE. The other fact is that the CSM support this change too.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:32:08 -
[140] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
I don't think they do at all levels.
Doesn't matter what you think, fact is they do play EVE. The other fact is that the CSM support this change too. This is somewhat a fair point. However, it doesn't matter what any of us 'think'. What matters is the almighty dollar, and after spending probably 5K USD on this game over the last 7 years, the nature of their disconnect from what many players think is what alarms me. Call it my experiences with another MMO making sweeping changes without long contemplation. Removing all the ship commands is a pretty sweeping change, and has me contemplating walking away from the whole mess. I like game changes, as long as they are for a reason that makes sense. Changing how every ship in the game operates to address one ship class is absurd. Perhaps that isn't the real reason for the change, but if that's the case, that process should be transparent.
They aren't removing orbit, approach and the like any time soon. This is another example of CCP saying something and people going off the deep end thinking they said something else. The only change happening is the fleet warp nerf as specified in the OP, nothing more. This change simply means you need to use dedicated scouts like we used to, nothing more. All of this talk of having to stagger warps in mixed fleets is nonsense. As is the view this is aimed only at bombers, CCP gave bombers as just one example of a fleet that would need to alter its tactics a bit.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:33:51 -
[141] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:[quote=baltec1][quote=A55 Burger]
*Lots of people play this game for relatively narrow segments of gameplay. What would you do without the Megathron?
Fly another ship.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 01:47:22 -
[142] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:
The best way I can articulate why I'm worried is the boiling frogs syndrome. The water just seems... warmer to me... you know?
As one of those old timers who remembers what it was like before we got all of these fancy fleet broadcasts the water has gone from freezing to just cold. I expect a few other changes such as on grid warping going from 150km to at least 200km and I hope repair broadcasts becoming squad only.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:10:55 -
[143] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:
I agree completely. That's why I feel a change that affects so many boxes of gameplay shouldn't happen. Small tweaks, not sledgehammers. They changed the release cycle so they could do this.
This is a small change.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:19:23 -
[144] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:
I'm not sure what you would define as a big change. Removing all ship movement commands eventually with the exception of go this way, stop, and go really far... that seems like a big change to me.
Thats not what this change is.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:30:09 -
[145] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
I'm not sure what you would define as a big change. Removing all ship movement commands eventually with the exception of go this way, stop, and go really far... that seems like a big change to me.
Thats not what this change is. This change is a part of a set, envisioned to improve things. The discussion was about the set when I started posting in the thread. While you are correct that the beginning of the thread addressed only the fleet warp changes, I and others, including you have talked about the set. Conversations are fluid.
This thread is just about this one change when those other changes come, if they ever do, we can kick up a stink about them then. Right now there are no plans to get rid of orbit as they have nothing to replace it.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:42:16 -
[146] - Quote
A55 Burger wrote:
That's not how I read "CCP Larrikin: I agree, I want anchoring taken out of the game. "
Perhaps my reading of this is askew, but orbit, approach, and keep at range are all methods to anchor. There's no anchor command, so....
Saying he would like it gone does not mean it is going to happen. Its something he would like to happen, he did not say it is going to happen.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 10:37:46 -
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Zappity wrote:baltec1 wrote:Zappity wrote: To tackle? Lol
Why not? We use just as flimsy interceptors, t1 frigates and Ewar frigs. "Just as flimsy"? You have got to be kidding. Covops are PAPER thin and clearly not designed for tackle. Interceptors are designed specifically for tackle. But perhaps you are confused. After all, you seem to think interceptors are for scanning, too.
Anathema 2.3k ehp base
crusader 2.16k ehp base
Yea, just as flimsy.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 16:11:27 -
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unimatrix0030 wrote:baltec1 wrote:A55 Burger wrote:
That's not how I read "CCP Larrikin: I agree, I want anchoring taken out of the game. "
Perhaps my reading of this is askew, but orbit, approach, and keep at range are all methods to anchor. There's no anchor command, so....
Saying he would like it gone does not mean it is going to happen. Its something he would like to happen, he did not say it is going to happen. You guys should listen to the recording, he absolutly want them all to be removed, align, keep at range, orbit,... . The main idea is that you should be manualy piloting your ship so that means align, ,move and warp out would be done all manualy
Again, saying he would like to get rid of them is not the same as saying they are removing them.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.19 16:15:41 -
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Zappity wrote:baltec1 wrote:Zappity wrote:baltec1 wrote:Zappity wrote: To tackle? Lol
Why not? We use just as flimsy interceptors, t1 frigates and Ewar frigs. "Just as flimsy"? You have got to be kidding. Covops are PAPER thin and clearly not designed for tackle. Interceptors are designed specifically for tackle. But perhaps you are confused. After all, you seem to think interceptors are for scanning, too. Anathema 2.3k ehp base crusader 2.16k ehp base Yea, just as flimsy. Don't be silly. Fit some tank on the Crusader. Check. Not to mention it comes with built in sig reduction. Fit some tank on the Anathema. Oh wait you can't because there is no fitting left after the Expanded probe launcher. And there's no sig reduction either.
You can fit as much tank on a probe fitted cov ops as a tackle fitted crusader. As for the sig just slap an afterburner on the cov-ops.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.20 00:11:13 -
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Kinete Jenius wrote: Did you miss fozzie saying he wanted to remove fleet warp a while back? I'm pretty sure this change might have been the result...
We can still fleet warp after this change.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.20 00:15:19 -
[151] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:You won't be using Anathemas and Cheetahs for tackle. Prolly not even a buzzard. No fitting space and no defense. So much for giving these twats combat bonuses or any role beyond a interacting with somewhat clever PVE.
This Helios has 4k EHP, more if you lose the nanos for overdrives. It's sole merit is the 1k hull.
[Helios, Tackle] Type-D Restrained Nanofiber Structure Damage Control II Type-D Restrained Nanofiber Structure
5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200 Scan Acquisition Array I F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
You can decloak midst warp, about 1AU out and will land with no calibration timer. Not that's a clever idea in its own right, because cloak allows you to position favoruably. You could try recalibration rigs, this drops the timer down to 3.7s with Cloaking V, and rely on victims poor align time to tackle him/her/it.
Still, you cannot compare this to an interceptor because it is "Just as flimsy". This has no drone protection, no practically replenishable tank, and it has to use the sisters launcher, so its a 70mill ships + 10 mill cargo of probes and boosters.
And your average ceptor fits no tanking mods at all so when it gets caught it dies even faster. If you want something tanky then use an assault frigate or upgrade to a cruiser hull. We used to tackle stuff just fine with cov-ops.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.20 13:18:04 -
[152] - Quote
X4me1eoH wrote:now, many peoples mining with many windows. And warp all their windows using fleetwarp.Do you expect an increase in ore prices after the patch? Because I think many miners disable their subscriptions. I for sure disable 1-2 my alts.
No you won't.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.20 13:38:27 -
[153] - Quote
Zhul Chembull wrote:Bad idea gents, this just increases some tedious things in game. I do not support this at all. Quit trying to drive off subscriptions. There are some of the people I know that are on the edge of just finding another game from some of these "wonderful" changes.
Fun fact, back before we got the fleet broadcasting tools EVE was growing at its fastest rate.
Nobody it going to quit over this.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.20 22:52:04 -
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unimatrix0030 wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote: Well that would certainly make me become uninterested in flying logistics post change.
Awful idea.
Everything about this idea is terrible, it is like changing the stearingwheel of a car while driving without any replacement or other thing to stear with.
It more like taking away the satnav from the rally driver so he has to use the navigator.
Harry Saq wrote:So the reasoning for the change was stated to be to hamper bombers as one of the primary goals.
Wrong.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.24 03:51:53 -
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Brother Mercury wrote:
What you're changing doesn't accomplish the stated goal your'e seeking, rather, it just creates tedium and circumstances that make it harder to get fleet engagements.
So its working as intended.
The point of this change is to force FCs to stop doing the scouting in their FC ship and use more than one ship for this job and thus more people. Can the FC use an alt? Sure. Can the FC use said alt as effectively as a dedicated player? No. The attrition rate for FC alt cov-ops is abysmal. Dedicated scanner alts will be needed with this change so the goals of this change will be met.
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Posted - 2015.06.24 13:08:02 -
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Brother Mercury wrote:baltec1 wrote:Brother Mercury wrote:
What you're changing doesn't accomplish the stated goal your'e seeking, rather, it just creates tedium and circumstances that make it harder to get fleet engagements.
So its working as intended. The point of this change is to force FCs to stop doing the scouting in their FC ship and use more than one ship for this job and thus more people. Can the FC use an alt? Sure. Can the FC use said alt as effectively as a dedicated player? No. The attrition rate for FC alt cov-ops is abysmal. Dedicated scanner alts will be needed with this change so the goals of this change will be met. When I say that it will make fleet engagements harder, I'm saying that it will just increase the time for two fleets to fight, OR in the case that one slippery fleet wants to run -- run and no fights will happen. Scenario 1) Two fleets want to fight but are trying to get good positioning on each other. The fight is going to happen, they just have to find their warp-in. Without this change: FC 1 combat probes a bit and finds the fleet and lands X km from the FC 2 and they fight. FC 2 is defensively waiting at an objective. They now fight. With this change: FC 1 combat probes a bit, warps to where he wants the fleet to warp to, then warps his fleet to his prober. FC 2 is defensively waiting at the objective. They now fight. In this first scenario, LITERALLY, the only "added" fleet member participation is that the FC's alt prober (95% of the time it will be the FC's alt prober) has to warp to his results. This is not added involvement, it is straight up just added tedium and another process before a fight can happen. Scenario 2) Two fleets are moving around a system looking to engage, but the fight isn't inevitable because there is no objective to be taken. FC 1 has a slower fleet than FC 2s faster fleet. Without this change: While FC 1's prober alt is trying to chase down FC 2's fleet, FC 2's fleet is on the move and keeps warping off right as FC 1 warps his fleet to FC 2's location. This goes on for awhile, and FC 1's fleet manages finally to catch a couple of FC 2's ships with his prober. FC 2's prober meanwhile is trying to get a ranged location on the FC 1's fleet because FC 2's fleet is the faster, ranged fleet. FC 2's prober finds a decent spot and they alpha a couple of FC 1's ships. At this point the fight is pretty even -- both sides have a lost a few ships and they are more happy because there was content. You can make up in your mind who wins. With this change: FC 1 will now NEVER have a chance to probe down FC 2's fleet because, before this change he was barely getting there in time. Meanwhile FC 2 can't get a good location at range on FC 1's fleet because of the delay as well. Both fleets lumber around a bit until FC 2's fleet gets bored and leaves. No fights happen and everyone is annoyed and bored. Let's even assume that there are "dedicated scanners" on both fleets. This doesn't change the result that no fights happen and people are left bored because the FC's warping to the dedicated scanners creates a great enough delay for the two fleets to just dance around each other, in a mind-numbing occasion. OK, so there are plenty of more scenarios that one could make up but the point I'm trying to make is that this change only makes the game LESS fun for everyone. And for what? MAYBE in SOME instances a fleet will have another dedicated prober besides the FC using one. That's literally it -- 1 or 2 members having a mandatory, non-fun role, which by the way just adds an arbitrary step before we can fight. But you're forgetting that fleet members are already doing things in fleets that CCP for some reason thinks will change and have value added -- i.e. fleets already often have prober's, or interceptors, or sabres that are trying to tackle enemy targets and provide warp-ins. This is value that is already added to individual members, without this change required. Their roles won't magically be increased just because there's an added step that the FC has to warp to a member. You honestly believe that MAYBE ONE "dedicated scanner" is added fleet participation, considering the massive impact it has on other parts of EVE? Again, people are open to change in this thread. It's just that this change doesn't do what CCP wants, but their being bull-headed about it anyway.
It does exactly what they want, It stops the fc from being the scout in their fc ship. All this change does is return us to what we used to do back in 2007 and we got just as many fights then as today.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.24 15:12:24 -
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Masao Kurata wrote:baltec1 wrote:It does exactly what they want, It stops the fc from being the scout in their fc ship. All this change does is return us to what we used to do back in 2007 and we got just as many fights then as today. That can be accomplished with a much less disruptive change: disallow fleet warping to probe results and bookmarks less than one minute old (bookmark age is already in the database).
CCPs change is more effective and easier to do.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:44:44 -
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A55 Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:
It does exactly what they want, It stops the fc from being the scout in their fc ship. All this change does is return us to what we used to do back in 2007 and we got just as many fights then as today.
Ahhhh... the good old days.
This show what exactly with regards to the way fleets worked back then?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.24 16:46:56 -
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Masao Kurata wrote:
More effective at pissing everyone off and one line of code less.
You being irritated at a change is no basis on the effectiveness of a change. I bet you also kicked up a stick with the warp speed changes and lots of people went off the deep end with the nano nerf. This change is needed, it is far too easy to control a fleet with one person in one ship.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2015.06.25 04:31:25 -
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Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:Naglerr wrote:Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Troll words. That's a terrible red herring, and you should know better. Or .. read the dev blog better. Baltec1 has been trolling this tread for almost every individual page of all the 91 pages that this thread is. I'm both really impressed with his dedication and surprised that people are still replying to his posts. And he does it so well too! It's an easy way to keep harping on how bad the changes are though.. so hard to let them pass by.
The pair of you have no idea what the current fleet doctrines are, the tactics used or that FC ships fit probe launchers on them. Notice that by far the bulk of the whining about this change is coming from NPC alts and pve players and not FCs. The very idea that you think getting the fleet members to do more is "tedious" just goes to show how lazy some people have become. You are literally arguing that you should not have to play EVE while you play EVE.
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