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Jack Miton
WeebleCORP
4491
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Posted - 2015.06.12 04:52:44 -
[31] - Quote
I case anyone missed it in the main thread on this change, I present the quote of the year:
"This isn't the least bit true. Ganks require a lot of skill and coordination."
- Long Muppet, LZHX
(In response to someone suggesting that ganks are currently zero effort affairs.)
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Chainsstyle Arnerette
Incertae Sedis
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 04:53:02 -
[32] - Quote
Steven is spot on. |
blue coeur
Anomalous Existence
Low-Class
20
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Posted - 2015.06.12 05:52:23 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Larken,
Thank your for taking the time to read our opinions and thoughts on these proposed changes. I already posted on the other thread, but it's probably buried under all the salt already. I normally don't respond to dev posts so I hope you take my views and opinions as constructive feedback and not criticism.
As I was working through my thoughts, I compared these proposed changes to how it would affect our current day to day operations and surprisingly didn't see too many differences between what we do now and what you are proposing.
But the biggest issue I see is that these changes are not moving the responsibility from the FC to the fleet, instead it's putting more risk on the Scout (Which is already tough enough). Now they can no longer warp a fleet when a ship has been combat scanned or a new wormhole signature resolved and instead will have to warp to the target, then the FC would be able to fleet warp. This in itself is not a bad thing, but just makes life a little harder and WH space is already pretty hard.
Quote:I'm having a hard time putting words to how I feel about these changes.
I suppose the first thing that should be mentioned is that I'm a wormhole citizen. So all my opinions are all based in the context of living and working in Wormhole space.
Fleet members in WH corporations already work very hard...
Wormhole space is hard, I like it that way. My corp effectively spends hundreds of hours every week scanning for content and when content is found, our scouts bookmark routes and any celestials or wrecks near that content.
With your proposed changes, this will have very little affect on our day to day operations. But it's just another nuisance that we will add to the list.
Will your changes fix the current issue of Bookmarks taking up to several minutes to populate?
Currently when we share bookmarks with other corporations, we effectively still have to fleet warp because waiting for bookmarks to populate can be the death of us or whoever we are trying to help.
Lastly
I already pay way too much for this game then I care to admit, but the changes you "CCP" are proposing makes it feel like not much thought has been given to Wormhole life.
Seriously, I challenge you to live in a Wormhole for a month. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Prolapse.
2414
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Posted - 2015.06.12 06:55:27 -
[34] - Quote
hey, bonus I just realised. You won't have a squad warp at a much lower speed than it's squad member's peak warp velocity due to some clown having a BS in squad. This will help your squad get onto grid way before your idiotic 2009 player in the BS or armour ship, allowing you to gank everything before he even lands or locks anything.
Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob
We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA
~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
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Chitsa Jason
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
1319
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Posted - 2015.06.12 07:11:35 -
[35] - Quote
There are a couple issues with proposed change:
1. Large corporations will have even more advantage over allliances made of smaller corporations, as there are no alliance bookmarks. Corps can just make a bookmark and warp their fleet there. Alliances will have to rely on warpins. It is true not only for PVP but for getting new wormhole bookmarks fast or moving somone into/out of a wormhole. Obvious solution here is to introduce alliance bookmarks first.
2. It will be harder for someone who is multiboxing in wormholes. You often rely on squad warps in order to do evey day activities.
I suspect this change is more about nerfing bombers than anything else. Well then solution is to nerf bombers not fleet warps.
I feel that With the change less organized and smaller entities will suffer more than bigger and more organized, especially in wspace.
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me
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Farendall
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
18
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Posted - 2015.06.12 07:22:28 -
[36] - Quote
I think a lot of people have/will cover/ed all the bad points of this so I wont waste your time with a lengthy explanation of why this is a bad idea.
- 1 |
Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery
Prolapse.
507
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Posted - 2015.06.12 07:25:44 -
[37] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:hey, bonus I just realised. You won't have a squad warp at a much lower speed than it's squad member's peak warp velocity due to some clown having a BS in squad. This will help your squad get onto grid way before your idiotic 2009 player in the BS or armour ship, allowing you to gank everything before he even lands or locks anything.
There is the flip side of that. Blapping all the smaller assets that warp faster because enemy logi still hasn't entered the grid yet. poor fast tacklers. my heart goes out to you.
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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Thornir
13.
Enigma Project
7
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Posted - 2015.06.12 07:43:31 -
[38] - Quote
corbexx wrote: Goonbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Could you just once give us an improvement with this CSM you've gotten, other then rotten news, how about telling us what you plan to do about this. Or do you just not care?
FC? Hello. Warp to me! I am here!
IC Blog http://thornir-soan.blogspot.dk/
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wazp1
Limited Power Inc
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
8
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Posted - 2015.06.12 08:00:16 -
[39] - Quote
just copy past my self from the other one
Quote:
I have not seen the o7 show yet but:
I dont see any point doing this, must be one of the most stupid changes in Eve.
As if you are doing that change are you then doing:
Alliance Bookmarks
Increase corp bookmarks
Increase update freq on corp and now the New alliance bookmarks that make sure everyone in Corp/alliance have that bookmark as when in mostly whs not everyone can see the bookmark before its to late and therefore fleet /Wing / squad warp
#where is the Wh Csm on this?
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Jezza McWaffle
Grumpy Bastards
No Response
217
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Posted - 2015.06.12 08:14:17 -
[40] - Quote
The three biggest issues I see with this change which are a day to day thing. Most of these apply to groups who run with more than just 1 corporation.
1.
If you have multiple corps either from being in an alliance or on a joint op, when your going down the chain, especially if its a long chain currently you fleet warp or provide a warp in to the WH, fleet warping is preferred since you don''t have to worry about the character ahead getting caught and this while annoying I could get used to just continually warping to someone to get the chain I haven't bookmarked, it will just require more scouts all the time.
2.
If your warping into a hostile fleet, this is the worst part of the change in my opinion. Currently we can fleet warp either directly into the hostile fleet or at a tactical spot and then warp down to engage them, this relies on just the fleet commander having the bookmark because often if your running in an alliance or with multiple groups then not everyone is going to have the bookmark because you bookmark so much **** in wormholes (CCP please try living out of WH's for once). After the change this is going to resort in either getting a scout at the position which if its tactical is no problem but if your warping directly to the WH no scout is going to put himself 2km away from the entire hostile fleet and their bubblers. So we'll have to resort to WAITING for the bookmarks to propogate, thank you CCP for FORCING us to wait even longer now for any chance to have some decent PvP.
3. When your going to kill some site runners, when I kill site runners who are on their own I either warp to my scout alt or fleet warp using my scout out (obviously with warp with fleet turned off) to the enemy at zero either by bookmark I made or with probes. Having to warp to my scout alt means I have to get my scout alt dangerously close, and because of the changes you CCP have made to Wormholes almost everyone scans with Covops not T3's because of frigate holes and the importance to scan quickly given how easy it is to spot new holes. If your going to kill an escalation fleet (which is actually hard if the site runners put an ounce of effort into defending themselves), then a usual thing to do is for the bubblers to be switched to a squad where the commander is the scout, scout then fleet warps the bubblers to the hostile fleet either through probes or a bookmark, and given how hard it can be (and time consuming) for a scout to manually pilot close to the enemy fleet (which is very dangerous because of the all the objects in sites) and the amount of time it consumes, giving the hostiles more time to extract once they IMMEDIATELY spot the new sig appearing. You are just making site running even safer, which is not something we want!
C6 Wormhole blog
http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/
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Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
109
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Posted - 2015.06.12 08:21:54 -
[41] - Quote
OH FOR FUCKS SAKE
Do they not realize PVE & industry damage this will do? It's a direct hard nerf to multiboxing. When people start to get frustrated, & subs fall increasingly, the dev's better watch out for their jobs. |
Bloemkoolsaus
Viperfleet Inc.
Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
191
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Posted - 2015.06.12 08:51:50 -
[42] - Quote
cross post from: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5814028#post5814028
This is a very bad change for wormhole space. I will try to eplain:
Let's say we just found a new wormhole in our homesystem (we either rolled, or we got a random connection w/e). We send out scouts and soon scouts are splitting up as the connections and chains expand.
This image is a fairly common scenario, let's say a scout from corp A is scanning subchain-1 and a scout from corp B is scanning subchain-2. So, all members of corp A have bookmarks for subchain-1 and all corp members from corp B have them for subchain-2 (assuming both scouts use corp bookmarks ofc).
Now, the scout from corp B jumps in to the next wormhole, hit's his dscan and see's npc wrecks and some ships. Our fleet, from members of both corp A and corp B forms up in the home system while the scouts pinpoints their location. Speed is important here, any wrong move, or take to long and they might get scared and move away before we can get there.
The scout finds them and the fleet begins to move. Corp B members have bookmarks, but corp A members to not (remember it was a corp B scout that did the scanning, the corp A scout is scanning a different part). So, you put a corp B member in squad/wing and warp the fleet to all the holes. Corp A makes bookmarks along the way. If we wouldn't be able to do those fleet warps, that means someone from corp B must warp to the next wormhole, land, before corp A members can warp to the next wormhole. This more then doubles the response time of our fleet. By the time we get there, our targets will most likely be long gone.
The only way I can think of to solve that, would be to distribute the bookmarks from corp B to corp A while the fleet is forming up. However, it can take anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes before all bookmarks are propagated for all corp members. By that time, the targets will be long gone as well.
Unless we either get alliance bookmarks, or bookmark propagating becomes instant, this change is ver, very bad for wormholespace.
I hope that made sense... |
Humang
Mobius Logistics
100
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Posted - 2015.06.12 09:33:39 -
[43] - Quote
I'm interested into how/why this idea was brought up, as in why you are pushing for more individual responsibility rather than the FC?
Do you want people to be more prepared (have their own BM's)?
Or do you just want fleet members more involved in fleet warps?
I would echo the concerns brought up about it having a huge impact on those who live/use w-space since BM's play such a big part of getting around in fleets, so perhaps change it so that it just requires additional input from the individual instead of being solely reliant on them.
EG.
- FC initiates a squad warp, but he/she only aligns for the moment.
The FC can chose when to actually warp, or possibly is automatically warped after a shot timer, but only the FC is automaticly aligned
- A destination is broadcast to the fleet.
This could be a indicator on the Overview, or an entry in the fleet broadcast window
- All Fleet members must align to the destination.
Could be done the same as aligning to any other celestial, or must be done manual with FC by clicking in space.
- FC starts the warp.
Could be some UI element that shows how many fleet members are aligned, along with a cancel/start button
- Those that are aligned are the only ones that receive the warp.
Only the fleet members that are aligned with the FC will warp, all others will be left behind
Something like that would keep the current capability of Fleet Warp, but require that the individual be involved in the process.
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1097
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Posted - 2015.06.12 09:56:55 -
[44] - Quote
As a sabre pilot: Good times ahead! |
Jack Hayson
Atztech Inc.
Ixtab.
178
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Posted - 2015.06.12 10:28:45 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:corbexx wrote:CCP Larrikin is potentially happy to chat to us about it Confirming!
Well then... Hello CCP Larrikin.
In w-space we almost never warp to 'public' objects.
Since the broken bookmark system takes forever to push bookmarks to other clients (why is this still not fixed btw?) we often use fleet warps to get around that - especially when we are in a hurry.
Sending in a prober first and then warping to him takes twice as long and is not always feasible.
Imagine you are a CovOps pilot who just found some dudes running sites... what do you do?
Right now you could
-probe them down and fleet warp tackle on top of them, or
-find their site via d-scan, warp in at range, bookmark a wreck/can/whatever close to them and then fleetwarp tackle to the bookmark
With the nerf you can:
-fly a T3 and tackle them, or
-go home
Trying to provide a warp in for tackle with your CovOps will result in you getting decloaked by drones/missiles/random crap and dying to sleeper frigs as well as chasing away your prey.
If they are moving you can't provide a proper warp in at all. (ever tried tackling a venture orbiting a gas cloud?) |
Kalel Nimrott
Henthell Corporation
1150
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:35:17 -
[46] - Quote
Dear CCP Larrakin
Your change is bad. You bookmark propagation times makes it bad. You whole concept of fleet fights makes it bad.
Henthell Corporation
ESD Director.
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
300
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:36:25 -
[47] - Quote
Cross-posting what I believe would be a good compromise in this matter
Basically, the idea is to introduce a delay or "spool up" (say 5-15 seconds or so) - similar to micro jump drives - to group warping depending on the size of the group (fleet warping takes comparatively long to squad and wing warps). Add to that, there would be a prominent visual effect in order to help opponents react to an imminent group warp.
Pros:
- Individual warping/piloting will be much faster and more effective, thus "more individual fleet member participation" would likely be achieved
- There would be very relevant downsides to group warps:
 The visual effect would warn a kiting / sniping fleet of an incoming fleet.
If a fleet was preparing to leave the scene via fleet warp, the opposing group could spread points and/or warp a dictor on top of them to keep them on the grid.
An FC couldn't just insta-save his entire fleet without other pilots' involvement
- Last, but not least, the gazillion other (legitimate) use cases for group warps wouldn't be completely screwed.
Questions:
- Would the visual effect show on a cloaked fleet?
- Would ships align during spool up or after?
Bombers, apparently one the primary reasons for the planned changes, would need a sensible rebalancing effort at the same time. This goes without saying, the details, however, belong in another discussion. |
Louis Catcher
Haywire.
13
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Posted - 2015.06.12 11:49:45 -
[48] - Quote
If thi
If this is to nerf bombers then make bombers unable to fleet warp wtf?
As someone said, if devs keep doing this they better watch out for their jobs.
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Borsek
Incertae Sedis
300
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:09:43 -
[49] - Quote
Adriana Nolen wrote:OH FOR FUCKS SAKE
Do they not realize PVE & industry damage this will do? It's a direct hard nerf to multiboxing. When people start to get frustrated, & subs fall increasingly, the dev's better watch out for their jobs.
Honestly, mate, your troll thread ideas are better than this. #AdrianaNolen for CSM 2015 |
Mimiko Severovski
Zero Fun Allowed
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
16
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:12:11 -
[50] - Quote
So a competent fc is gonna need at least 3 accounts now, cool.
But why even post feedback on any possible changes, feedback for the ****** new icons was 95% negative, yet its still here.
Literary all changes for the past year and a half (fuzzy rice) have made this game more and more tedious to play, more time consuming and a lot more effort than its actually worth while not increasing the fun factor at all.
Add something new (not ****** poses that get killed by a 50k sp frigate with a module if you go afk for a week) and stop making everything in this ****** game ****. |
HTC NecoSino
No Vacancies
237
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:30:46 -
[51] - Quote
Thornir wrote:corbexx wrote: Goonbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better Could you just once give us an improvement with this CSM you've gotten, other then rotten news, how about telling us what you plan to do about this. Or do you just not care?
^^ This. Once again bowing to his NS overlords to save his own Hawaiian-shirt wearing neck-beard.
-2 accounts subscribed. |
Angux Thermopyle
Negative Density
Whatever.
33
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:51:34 -
[52] - Quote
Terrible idea.
This does not fix the root problem and creates atleast 6 more that impacts every single player in this game.
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Erica Dusette
Isogen 5
45928
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:02:35 -
[53] - Quote
Not really any specific points to raise that haven't been already.
But still wish to make a token post to say I dislike this change.
-1
Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!
Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel
Gû+ -+eep+¦ng -+y pro-++¦-òe -ò+¦nce 17|12|116 GÖÑ
Gû+ wor-+-+ole d+¦ary + c-+arac-éer -¦+¦o-ò
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Thea Yulivee
Space Pioneers
Odin's Call
7
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:30:36 -
[54] - Quote
Well - i already posted on the main thread but can't hurt to post here as well
Whilst I agree with the changes from a viewpoint of "intra-combat-warps", especially related to nullsec fights but also when it comes to other areas, the changes that this poses on the day-to-day traveling and scouting routine in a wormhole seem to be mostly ignored by CCP.
I guess i could easily live with this, if you could broadcast bookmarks, so that everyone in fleet can warp to them on their own, which would negate most of the negative effects for mixed-corp fleets and on top enable ordered retreat to a savespot. (Everyone still has to warp themselves, but without this getting mixed fleets regrouped is painfull)
On top of that ofc the good old request - could you finally get us faster sync on bookmarks please (and alliance bookmarks, although the former is more urgent to me)...if corpbookmarks would be instantly available for everyone the effects on the daily travel in w-space would be minimized while not taking anything from indivual actions of a pilot |
Humang
Mobius Logistics
100
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Posted - 2015.06.12 15:11:22 -
[55] - Quote
Thea Yulivee wrote:broadcast bookmarks
This seems to be the most common suggestion, and would fix most of the functionality that would be lost with the changes to Fleet Warp.
It should also still allow for the reasoning that CCP Larrakin raised in the "o7 show" specifically that of giving specialized fleet members a better chance to play a greater role in fleet fights.
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Carlos Agathon
Grumpy Bastards
No Response
22
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Posted - 2015.06.12 15:57:48 -
[56] - Quote
-1
Dear CCP, there are no Stargates in wormholes (yet) - in fact we navigate wormholes via bookmarks (in case you forgot - you don't seem to come here often). If you want to make Bombers take longer to get on top of a target that is fine with me (and probably most other people), but please find a different way than taking something away that makes living in wormholes easier.
At present I feel like we could do with some quality of life improvements rather than the opposite, so please consider introducing alliance bookmarks and faster propagation.
But really, the question is: if you want to nerf Bombers specifically, then why not just expempt Bombers from fleet warps? |
HTC NecoSino
No Vacancies
237
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:08:24 -
[57] - Quote
Carlos Agathon wrote:Dear CCP, there are no Stargates in wormholes (yet)
They said they were addressing this shortly. My guess is that wormholes will just show up on the overview as a celestial...
Edit for Further thoughts:
Would having WHs on overview help NS? Yes
Do we have a NS CSM that enjoys occassional trips in WHs? Yes
Confirmed that this will be the solution. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1098
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 16:36:30 -
[58] - Quote
Putting up much effort to get accurate intel was like cheating anyways. |
Fionna Da'gere
Patriot Security Services
New Signature
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 16:41:31 -
[59] - Quote
I find these changes to be upsetting for many of the reasons already listed. I fail to see how this will make the game better in any measurable way save for a few VERY specific instances and will hinder the game play of many in a lot of different ways.
If the issue is with Bombers, then look at that mechanic and find a solution there, don't change a mechanic that affects the entire fleet system; that's just lazy and incompetent.
"Hello, this is chip from sales- the website is down!" |
Kyle Meshuggah
No Vacancies
14
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Posted - 2015.06.12 18:37:49 -
[60] - Quote
Dear Corbexx and CCP Larrikin,
I have been in wspace for a couple years now. I solo, I multi-box pvp and pve, I've lead fleets, i've scouted for fleets, I've had lazy fights where i just follow anchor and shoot primaries and I've been in fights where myself and every other fleet mate were as busy as any "solo" pvp'r in any video on youtube. I concur with many of the posts in this thread. I think Phoenix Jones, Trinkets, Chitsa, Jezza, Jack Hayson... they've done a pretty damn good job of explaining just how unhealthy of a change this will likely be for those of us who choose to make wspace our primary playground and even our home. Please give serious consideration to their posts.
From the 'other thread'-
"The goal of these changes is to encourage more individual fleet member participation and reduce the speed at which fleets can get on top of targets (e.g bombers)."
Ok, cool. That sounds like a great thing to me. I'm sure most people in Eve want the first part at least (more individual fleet member participation). Great! There's our collective starting point. The counter ideas or alternatives the gentlemen in this thread have suggested are very interesting, especially letting only the squad commander warp their squad. That one.... that one stands out to me as a concept worthy of at least bringing up with other devs and CSMs.
Thanks for your time,
-Kyle
PS- These changes, if they go through, will not push me to unsub. Nah. But i gotta say that as I read the dev post and saw what was actually being proposed.... for the first time ever I did consider it for a fleeting moment. It was an emotional response, like so many others in this thread are experiencing.
PSS- Do you guys just really like pissing wormholers off in the Summer? ;)
http://i.imgur.com/8tmu8E2.jpg
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