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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.23 14:15:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Ithildin
Heavy drones don't do battleship damage. They do battleship SUPPORT damage. Heavy drones do CRUISER damage, provided they are the dominating damage source.
I'm curious, what's the basis for this comparison. As far as I can tell 5 heavy drones (tech 2) is 250-300 (depending on damage type) dps. In a caracal, with absolute max skills and all T2 gear, I seem to recall it does about 184-230. (depending on damage type)
That's a healthy margin more damage. Then again, heavy assault missiles may well be enough to take the caracal up to 290ish. OK, perhaps they do do cruiser damage.
Wait, that's before adding on any drone damage bonuses from the ship.
I appreciate that's neglecting the discussion of relative fittings (I've had to assume fully T2 max skills to get that number out of a caracal), and the fact that drones are eminently shootable. (although at 100m sig, and 2500 hitpoints, that's not stunningly easy either)
And of course, I've ignored the fact that smartbombs really hurt drones - a 300 damage blast from a large smarty hits all of them.
How do other racial cruisers fare? I've not worked out absolute max DPS on minmatar or amarrian cruisers.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.23 14:17:00 -
[32]
Originally by: MOS DEF
I fought it on SiSi when it had both boni and it was not just overpowered but plain broken.
It's lost a launcher since then, as well.
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Slevin Kalebra
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Posted - 2006.11.23 14:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: MOS DEF
Now if a totally and ridiculously overpowered caldari ship is nerfed the whnage is overwhelming. It's not the amount of whining that should lead to changes. Ships need to be balanced.
I can see the reasoning behind the tanknerf and dmg boost you want but isn't it just a cheap cerberus then basically?
If they add the ROF bonus again they better kill that tank or the ship breaks the game. I fought it on SiSi when it had both boni and it was not just overpowered but plain broken.
The problem isn't that the Drake was nerfed, I think most people (yes, even caldari) expected that something would have to be done with the Drake as, yes, it was overpowered as it stood. The problem was the way in which the nerfbat hit, making it little more than the Mk. 2 Ferox. The caldari fleet is already full of ships which conform to a very similar standard all the way through. What the caldari players were excited about (apart from the obvious raw overpower), was that the Drake broke the mould - it was something a little different (not radically different but certainly less conservative).
The tank-nerf and damage boost option may make it a 'cheap Cerberus' but so what? Drake will still be slower and with a bigger sig take harder hits than a Cerb, so there's still a place for the HAC. The Cerb is horribly overpriced anyway... way beyond the price range where many people are going to even risk it in PvP. If the Drake forced the price of Cerbs down by even 50% the producers would still be making a killing on them.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 14:33:00 -
[34]
Originally by: James Lyrus I appreciate that's neglecting the discussion of relative fittings (I've had to assume fully T2 max skills to get that number out of a caracal), and the fact that drones are eminently shootable. (although at 100m sig, and 2500 hitpoints, that's not stunningly easy either)
Well, a Heavy drone has the same sig rad as a Cruiser- that means it is imminently vulnerable to cruiser-sized weaponry (such as one might find on, for example, the Hurricane or the Drake). BCs are, in fact, Cruiser-killers by trade. If a Hurricane can't kill an un-tanked cruiser sized object with 2500 HP, somethings wrong with the Hurricane, not the Myrmidon.
The fact of the matter is, anyone flying the Myrmidon with 5 heavies and no spares is commiting expensive suicide- anyone with any sense will, upon seeing 5 heavies pop out, know what to do next. But thats alright- 5 heavies do produce rather OTT damage, combined with Myr's turrets. If the Myr is flying, say, 2 heavies and 3 mediums, with medium spares, its damge is suddenly somewhat less impressive, particularly after the enemy has forced you to deploy replacement mediums for those high powered heavies........ -----------------------------------------------
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Heelay Ashrum
Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.23 14:43:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 23/11/2006 14:44:27
Originally by: Majin82
Myrmidon Remove 2 Turrets Increase Drone bay to 150 m3
HUH!?!?!?! read better .. we all agre to reduce turret slots, but for a great drone bay.. change from 125 to 150 it's NOTHING!! a real drone ship should not care drone losses, so 200m3 at least, 250m3 even better. If we get this i'm disposable to loose also 3 turrets, not 2.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.23 14:53:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 23/11/2006 14:53:27
Originally by: Butter Dog The community certainly does NOT agree that changes are needed.
The 125m3 drone bay on the Myrm is fine (you cant safely use heavies but thats not a problem really). The Hurricane is fine, really nice ship. The Harbinger is great. The Drake... personally I'm in favour of giving it back the ROF bonus, but thats it, and Tux has already said they are considering that.
So, please don't assume the rest of us agree with you. We don't.
you are clueless
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Atar
Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.11.23 15:01:00 -
[37]
I've tested the Hurricane with both 7 and 6 turrets, and with 7 I could take on a Harbringer and lose some and win some, now with just 6 I lose every time, it needs the 7th back and it would be fine.
7 turrets, no launcher, no powergrid change, just the turret.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.23 15:07:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tuxford Drakes problem wasn't only with its great tanking abilities.
Sure it was, give it the changes I just mentioned and see if its high DPS mean much when it can die in 30 seconds.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.23 15:12:00 -
[39]
7 turrets the Hurricane, RoF + Kinetic bonus to Drake on 6 launchers
Add 100% more sig radius to Large Shield extenders
1600mm Plates should take 700 pg, and add 50% more mass addition.
That will go a long way to fix over sized plates while allowing for flexability.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Akiman
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Posted - 2006.11.23 16:03:00 -
[40]
they are only tier II u know...there should be tier III's
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Max Manlove
Miner Protection Guild Astrophobics
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Posted - 2006.11.23 16:30:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Xaildaine
O and Tux i feel that the player base generaly agree that the Ferox needs another Turret and PG to fit ^_^ I mean .. im just saying... sometimes we do agree
I kind of agree to that as well, means abusing a graphic guy. We'll look into it post revelation, meaning I'll whine to other devs until they cave in
I'll love you to death if you pimp the Moa too! ♥♥♥ Protecting Your Right To Love Thy Neighbor ♥♥♥ |
Xaildaine
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Posted - 2006.11.23 20:31:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Xaildaine
O and Tux i feel that the player base generaly agree that the Ferox needs another Turret and PG to fit ^_^ I mean .. im just saying... sometimes we do agree
I kind of agree to that as well, means abusing a graphic guy. We'll look into it post revelation, meaning I'll whine to other devs until they cave in
YAY Tux you just made my day
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JFxSummoner
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Posted - 2006.11.24 00:45:00 -
[43]
omg omg omg Tux u serious about the 6th turret and grid to ferox?? tux FTW
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Agrias Hellion
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Posted - 2006.11.24 03:11:00 -
[44]
People seem to think have spare waves of drones is a bad thing.
Considering at the moment you first wave is more likely to mwd to primary, stop half wasy. Deselect primary target, randomly target some other ships and then split up. All with a nice stop and BE a target.
Have a drone ship with the opportunity to field replacement drones would be nice, since they are our primary weapon. Remove high slots, give the ship a +5m3 bonus per level or something of that ilk. You changed the bonuses on the Scorpion to make it a proper ECM platform and the Blackbird received the same. Give us a drone battlecruiser.
I wonder why I fly Amarr.
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Xaildaine
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Posted - 2006.11.24 03:36:00 -
[45]
Originally by: MOS DEF Most people ingame are cladari. That is a fact. Least are Minmatar i think. There were stats released about this a while ago.
Now if a totally and ridiculously overpowered caldari ship is nerfed the whnage is overwhelming. It's not the amount of whining that should lead to changes. Ships need to be balanced.
I can see the reasoning behind the tanknerf and dmg boost you want but isn't it just a cheap cerberus then basically?
If they add the ROF bonus again they better kill that tank or the ship breaks the game. I fought it on SiSi when it had both boni and it was not just overpowered but plain broken.
I think you will find most People rolled Caldari for the stat point layout.... not their ships Most will train another races ships once they get out of the Learning skill grind.
You are however right about 2 things... 1 The Drake was over powered with 7 launchers and a ROF bonus and its tank. We all knew it .. yes .. Even us Caldari 2 The Tank will need a nerf if the dammage is increased
The Cerberus will still be a better all around ship.. just the stupid price asked for one will nolonger be acceptable when there is another ship that is compareable.
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Mad Rage
Amarr Doom Guard
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Posted - 2006.11.24 05:06:00 -
[46]
well am not sure for all of you i personaly only tested the harbinger and i find its perfect the way it is only problem i have with it its the calabration points that suck lol coz its renders the rigs useless at some points but it would be nice to give back the 1.0x dmg it had before 2 patches ago lol but even so the med drones compensate the needed dmg types
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.11.24 08:59:00 -
[47]
Bah, I've mostly stopped bothering. It's a fact that CCP doesn't want to make really good Minmatar ships anymore, because they're afraid of the large, whining Caldari/Gallente population.
You can see how unbalanced the new BCs are by comparing their damage with just T1 drones/guns. It's much worse than in the graphs posted so far, because T1 drones do almost as much damage as T2 ones, while the difference is larger for the guns. A Myrmidon with T1 drones will kill any other T1 fitted BC far too easily... (and yes, a lot of people will fly these with T1 due to skills or overpriced T2 gear).
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Gladox
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Posted - 2006.11.24 10:41:00 -
[48]
Community agreed changes needed? What community would that be?
Personally, I think that the balance is just right now.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.24 10:47:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/11/2006 10:48:23
Originally by: Atar I've tested the Hurricane with both 7 and 6 turrets, and with 7 I could take on a Harbringer and lose some and win some, now with just 6 I lose every time, it needs the 7th back and it would be fine.
7 turrets, no launcher, no powergrid change, just the turret.
I havent been able to beat any of the other battlecruisers alone yet (in a Hurricane) on TQ, so I guess its balanced now. :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.24 11:12:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Xaildaine
I think you will find most People rolled Caldari for the stat point layout.... not their ships Most will train another races ships once they get out of the Learning skill grind.
It is not suits well into roleplay. Ever heard about roleplay? It renders whole weapon class(missiles) out of the PvP. Why CP do not tell us, that missiles are not suitable for PvP and may be effective only against Guristas?
Quote: You are however right about 2 things... 1 The Drake was over powered with 7 launchers and a ROF bonus and its tank. We all knew it .. yes .. Even us Caldari
Drake was not overpowered. Drake was weakest in terms of DPS BC tier2. And Drake is slowest and least agile BC in the game. So high DPS(yes, around 350-400, compare to 800+ from Myrmidon or Hadbinger) from usage of high damage HAMS is very doubtful. It is a bit difficult to catch any target except caldari BC-BS sized ships into 15 km range.
Quote: The Cerberus will still be a better all around ship.. just the stupid price asked for one will nolonger be acceptable when there is another ship that is compareable.
And everybody in the game knows that Cerb is not PvP ship, but Cerb costs more than Vaga. Do you really propose for us, caldari, Cerb instead of Drake? --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.24 14:00:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 23/11/2006 14:53:27
Originally by: Butter Dog The community certainly does NOT agree that changes are needed.
The 125m3 drone bay on the Myrm is fine (you cant safely use heavies but thats not a problem really). The Hurricane is fine, really nice ship. The Harbinger is great. The Drake... personally I'm in favour of giving it back the ROF bonus, but thats it, and Tux has already said they are considering that.
So, please don't assume the rest of us agree with you. We don't.
you are clueless
So clueless the Devs agree with my perspective.
Come back with a real arguement, not a vague insult.
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Melicien Tetro
Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.24 14:35:00 -
[52]
They already admitted that they hit the drake too hard. However, as far as giving it both it's turret and rof bonus back.... I think it's an issue of implied racial roles. Caldari ships aren't supposed to do more damage than anyone/everyone else. They just aren't. You have a tank, you have range, e-war, HAMs give missile users a new increased damage pvp option.. but really. About the kinetic damage, get over it. It's not that much of a problem. A properly tanked ship has pretty even resists across the board, when you consider it's total life span. It's just more rock/paper/scissors. For the myrmidon, it doesn't need anymore boosts. They could take away it's turrets altogether, and I think it would be a fine ship. It definitely doesn't need a reserve heavy. For the hurricane, 7 turrets was really overkill. For the Harbinger, consider using less cap intensive guns. Consider the possibility that an amarr ship might never be intended to repair itself. Consider sometimes turning off your guns. Consider cap boosters, the gallente already figured this out, why haven't the amarr? Consider that all amarr ships are designed with an implied fleet for support/to be part of a cohesive fleet. I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be ****ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ******* nerf. True story.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.24 14:56:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Melicien Tetro They already admitted that they hit the drake too hard.
We, Caldari, are So Happy! Somebody admitted something. Great!
Originally by: Melicien Tetro However, as far as giving it both it's turret and rof bonus back....
And even with this 7-th launcher and ROF bonus Drake will have WORST dps among all BC tier2. And even this worst DPS Drake cannot use effctively because 15km range is to difficult for sluggish Caldari BC.
Quote: Caldari ships aren't supposed to do more damage than anyone/everyone else.
We know. Caldari ships aren't supposed to do damage to anyone else. Good example is Kali Raven which has lower DPS than Brutix. Or Caldari ECM ships. It is supposed to remove from them any tank and limit DPS to the Punisher level.
Quote: You have a tank, you have range, e-war, HAMs give missile users a new increased damage pvp option.. but really.
We have tank only in PvE. Many thanks. We have range without damage. Many thanks. We have e-war, which rendered to be useless in Kali. We have HAM, but cannot use it effectively - our ships ARE SLOOOOOOW and SLUUUUGGISH.
Quote: About the kinetic damage, get over it. It's not that much of a problem. A properly tanked ship has pretty even resists across the board, when you consider it's total life span.
Kinetic damage is MOST tanked resist in Eve. And all caldari ships have LOWEST DPS. So it is a problem.
--------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Melicien Tetro
Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.24 15:08:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Zixxa
Quote: You have a tank, you have range, e-war, HAMs give missile users a new increased damage pvp option.. but really.
We have tank only in PvE. Many thanks. We have range without damage. Many thanks. We have e-war, which rendered to be useless in Kali. We have HAM, but cannot use it effectively - our ships ARE SLOOOOOOW and SLUUUUGGISH.
Only in PVE? Erm. Right. You could fit rails, you have ships for that. You are the only ones who can use e-war effectively now. Have you ever tried to use a blaster? I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be ****ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ******* nerf. True story.
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OneSock
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Posted - 2006.11.24 15:21:00 -
[55]
As I see it caldari have had the best lv4 mission runner in the game for quite some time now, even ferox can tank lv4s well so I say having an inferior Drake pays that back. Live with it as we have done.
One mistake these discussions seem to make is the assumption that these BCs will always go up against each other, well no that is not Eve is it ? Likely they will get ganked by a squad of interceptors or some nonsense so what's the big deal if they are a little unbalanced ?
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.24 15:33:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Melicien Tetro
Originally by: Zixxa
Quote: You have a tank, you have range, e-war, HAMs give missile users a new increased damage pvp option.. but really.
We have tank only in PvE. Many thanks. We have range without damage. Many thanks. We have e-war, which rendered to be useless in Kali. We have HAM, but cannot use it effectively - our ships ARE SLOOOOOOW and SLUUUUGGISH.
Only in PVE? Erm. Right.
I am almost always right.
Originally by: Melicien Tetro You could fit rails, you have ships for that.
Yes, we could. We also could fit projectiles and lasers. Effect is similar. No damage output(Eagle is good example), but for rails we have better distance than for the lasers and projectiles.
Quote: You are the only ones who can use e-war effectively now.
ECM is nerfed, forget about it.
Quote: Have you ever tried to use a blaster?
Yes, Taranis, for example. And I was absolutely happy. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.24 15:53:00 -
[57]
Shutup, Zixxa
I've never seen you make a decent post in any thread. You're nothing but a spineless alt troll.
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Melicien Tetro
Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:06:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Melicien Tetro
Originally by: Zixxa
Quote: You have a tank, you have range, e-war, HAMs give missile users a new increased damage pvp option.. but really.
We have tank only in PvE. Many thanks. We have range without damage. Many thanks. We have e-war, which rendered to be useless in Kali. We have HAM, but cannot use it effectively - our ships ARE SLOOOOOOW and SLUUUUGGISH.
Only in PVE? Erm. Right.
I am almost always right.
Originally by: Melicien Tetro You could fit rails, you have ships for that.
Yes, we could. We also could fit projectiles and lasers. Effect is similar. No damage output(Eagle is good example), but for rails we have better distance than for the lasers and projectiles.
Quote: You are the only ones who can use e-war effectively now.
ECM is nerfed, forget about it.
Quote: Have you ever tried to use a blaster?
Yes, Taranis, for example. And I was absolutely happy.
ECM is only really getting nerfed on non ecm ships. Are you daft? The eagle has no damage output? Really? I was hallucinating all of those times I've seen it reach into a skirmish and pick off targets at it's leisure from a safe distance with a hefty tank to protect it from the same fate. I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be ****ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ******* nerf. True story.
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Melicien Tetro
Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:07:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Butter Dog Shutup, Zixxa
I've never seen you make a decent post in any thread. You're nothing but a spineless alt troll.
I concur. I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be ****ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ******* nerf. True story.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:28:00 -
[60]
You IGNORE trolls, dont feed them ffs... --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
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