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Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.11.22 22:51:00 - [1] Edited by: Majin82 on 22/11/2006 22:54:35 Edited by: Majin82 on 22/11/2006 22:52:50 Revelations BC, Community Agreed Changes Needed. When Kail was first announced everyone saw seriously powerful ships being added to the BC tier 2. After some usage on Sisi, some obvious problems showed up. The lack of drones on the Myrmidon The DrakeÆs insane Tank Ect. Tuxford made some changes and the BCÆs all went from Gank to Tank. The changes he made were not the right ones in the minds of everyone. In particular, the double nerf on the Drake which really disappointed the Caldari players. There has been a lot of idea pooling going on since the changes were made and this seems to be the most agreed upon way to balance out the Tier 2 BCs. Sadly with Revelations coming up very soon, we will not see these changes made in time for release. Drake Remove The Kinetic Bonus Remove Resists Per Level Bonus Re-Add the 7th Launcher Re-Add the ROF Bonus Myrmidon Remove 2 Turrets Increase Drone bay to 150 m3 Hurricane Re-Add 7th Turret Harbinger Increase Capacitor Volume to deal with Cap problems I have taken these from a few threads and everyone seems to agree that this should be done to give the new BCÆs a purpose. DRAKE HISTORY The DrakeÆs Resists bonus allowed for players to create insane Tanks on Sisi that had amazing resists without having to add a lot of hardeners. People were flying around with 18k shields and enough resists that the tank was very hard to break. Coupled with the impressive (and long over due) missile firepower this combo of Tank and Gank made the Drake a superior BC in even lower SP players hands. A lot of Caldari players were very happy about the Drake was. It was a promising Solo PVP Missile Boat (something we lack), but we knew it was too powerful and it needed a small nerf to the tank. Tuxford made a needed change to the Drake, but instead of holding true to his idea that the Tier 2 BCÆs would be Offensive ships; he took away the gank and left the tank. Removing the ROF Bonus and the 7th Launcher, while giving a Kinetic Bonus instead. This left us with a ship that is basically a Ferox with a Kinetic Bonus, and an extra launcher slot costing 20+ mil more ISK. Kinetic is great to use in PVE since it gives a HUGE advantage when fighting NPCÆs like Guristas. But in PVP one of the most protected against damages is Kinetic. Tux has pointed out to us, ôYou donÆt need to use Kinetic, you can use any *** type you want!ö* While true, thatÆs like saying, ôHereÆs a bonus you WONT be using in PVP situations all of the time.ö The Drake is currently an overpriced Ferox and in the eyes of many useless. We donÆt need another Mission Own Boat. Everyone agrees that the Drakes problem on Sisi was itÆs Defensive abilities, not the Offensive ones. Tux, please make the above changes to the Drake so it can be the ship we all thought it would be. I am not as informed about the other 3 BCÆs since I have mainly been following the Drake, please follow suit and create a recap and why you think the changes are needed. Thanks Majin ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.22 23:06:00 - [2] The community certainly does NOT agree that changes are needed. The 125m3 drone bay on the Myrm is fine (you cant safely use heavies but thats not a problem really). The Hurricane is fine, really nice ship. The Harbinger is great. The Drake... personally I'm in favour of giving it back the ROF bonus, but thats it, and Tux has already said they are considering that. So, please don't assume the rest of us agree with you. We don't.
Kateryne Minmatar Steel Frontier Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.22 23:19:00 - [3] Some of you may not but a lot more of us do! New BC were supposed to be ganky over tanky, and yet half of them tank harder than the existing ones and, 1 of them is bugged to hell and not too great and the last 1 is nice (that is all i shall say about the harbinger - if i big it up too much it may get nerfed) The biggest issue in revelations is being able to kill ships without running out of ammo/capacitor/drones/getting bored. The drake just makes you want to go put on the kettle and come back in 15, cause you know you won't have gotten it's hp down more than a few more %. It NEEDS to have it's tanking bonus changed to something offensive, like missile rof or missile velocity, to augment the kinetic bonus and actually make the ship killable. If you refute this fact, then you sir, are a caldari mission running whorum farrior.
Adeptus Malkavius	Posted - 2006.11.22 23:32:00 - [4] Edited by: Adeptus Malkavius on 22/11/2006 23:34:23 or a Gallente pilot who's too used to his overpowered ships... Originally by: Butter Dog The community certainly does NOT agree that changes are needed. The 125m3 drone bay on the Myrm is fine (you cant safely use heavies but thats not a problem really). The Hurricane is fine, really nice ship. The Harbinger is great. The Drake... personally I'm in favour of giving it back the ROF bonus, but thats it, and Tux has already said they are considering that. So, please don't assume the rest of us agree with you. We don't. yes, of course you agree with a boost to your precious gallente pwnboat and "balance" to everything else
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.11.22 23:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Majin82 Drake Remove The Kinetic Bonus yes Remove Resists Per Level Bonus yes Re-Add the 7th Launcher hmmmm Re-Add the ROF Bonus yes Myrmidon Remove 2 Turrets no Increase Drone bay to 150 m3 hell no the myrmidon can carry 2 waves of mediums and a wave of lights, or 5 heavies, this is great adds diversity and options, with risks (eg losing lots of dps) if you go gank over tank. Hurricane Re-Add 7th Turret only if they reduce further the grid Harbinger Increase Capacitor Volume to deal with Cap problems didn't the damage bonus solve that? anyway, tux said he "wanted the harbinger to have cap problems" Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.22 23:41:00 - [6] Originally by: Adeptus Malkavius Edited by: Adeptus Malkavius on 22/11/2006 23:34:23 or a Gallente pilot who's too used to his overpowered ships... Originally by: Butter Dog The community certainly does NOT agree that changes are needed. The 125m3 drone bay on the Myrm is fine (you cant safely use heavies but thats not a problem really). The Hurricane is fine, really nice ship. The Harbinger is great. The Drake... personally I'm in favour of giving it back the ROF bonus, but thats it, and Tux has already said they are considering that. So, please don't assume the rest of us agree with you. We don't. yes, of course you agree with a boost to your precious gallente pwnboat and "balance" to everything else Of course you would know, with your vast experience of PvP, Mr Exlamation Mark.
Griever Takkow	Posted - 2006.11.22 23:56:00 - [7] Why is no-one ever specific about the Drakes second bonus.? Remove the kinetic bonus, remove the shield resist bonus,add the 7th launcher, add RoF bonus. That leaves an empty bonus. What do you want? Flight time or speed just so the HAM javs can really take the ****? Or what about RoF AND kinetic damage, to ensure higher dps than everything in the universe? And not forgetting that even without the resist bonus the Drake would still outtank every other tier 2 BC. So heres the challenge. Design a " Gank " Drake that doesnt have a monster passive tank and doesnt have more dps than every other BC by a factor of 10.
Zeknichov Amarr Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.23 00:04:00 - [8] Why does Gallante need a drone boat in every category of ship classes. Give me my bigger Celestis. 7 mid slots, 5 high, 5 low. Increase Sensor Dampener Strength, Increase Sensor Dampener Range.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.23 00:28:00 - [9] Community is more than the people that agree with you. Community is more than the people that will whine in every thread they see w/ the same crap. BC's are fine. not over powered, not underpowered. In their roles and not stepping on any other ships's toes (if you wonder why cycl and ferox resemble drake and hurricane, you can start by realizing they are BOTH TECH 1 BC'S w/ SIMILAR ROLES) "DRAKE HISTORY" ??!! wtf dont you understand about TEST SERVER and NON-PRODUCTION? This ship has no history because it hasn't even hit tranq yet. I think CCP has hit the nail on the head w/ latest changes, i cant wait for ALL the new ships. 90% of you have no clue about pvp or you would realize the potential of these new ships in the field is awsome, and good pilots are looking forward to these ships as they are. stfu please and thankyou, regardless of what you think you know, the devs better. IF, and thats IF any rebalancing needs done, it will be done. Revelations/Kali has two more releases before complete after this upcoming one. Inbetween there will be various patches. If you think you need yet ANOTHER thread to say the same crap over and over that CCP has already heard (and ignored), your most likely a lost cause and have already started writing your reply w/o reading this far. a little more- sit back and enjoy the ride a little less- back seat driving
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.23 00:30:00 - [10] Originally by: Kateryne It NEEDS to have it's tanking bonus changed to something offensive, like missile rof or missile velocity, to augment the kinetic bonus and actually make the ship killable. If you refute this fact, then you sir, are a caldari mission running whorum farrior. But us 'caldari mission running whorum farriors' do agree that the Drake needs to be made more offensive and less tanky. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.

Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.23 00:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Griever Takkow So heres the challenge. Design a " Gank " Drake that doesnt have a monster passive tank and doesnt have more dps than every other BC by a factor of 10. 8 highs 7 launcher slots 6 mids 4 lows The PG/CPU to allow say, 7 heavy missile launchers, 3 large extenders, 2-3 hardeners, 3 BCUs, 1 SPR? Pretty much what it had to begin with would work imo. If you want to use HAMs, then you're going to be fitting at least a PDU if not an RCU. If you want T2, you'd better have good fitting skills, otherwise you're looking at at least 2 RCUs, possibly a CPU as well, leaving you a killer 1 lowslot for a SPR or BCU, if that. Then: Drop the resists bonus Drop the Kinetic bonus Give back the 7th launcher Give back the ROF bonus Give the 2nd bonus as either missile velocity, or missile explosion velocity/radius (aka tracking, but velocity for range makes the most sense on a caldari ship) Reduce armor/hull/shields by 15%. By giving back the 7th launcher and giving back ROF, you're upping its DPS from kinetic by about 26%, with the others being significantly higher(49%?) since they lack the 25% bonus kinetic now has. The cost of this boost is they are instantly 25% easier to break due to the loss of the resistance bonuses, and then they are hurt another 15% by the loss to armor/shields/hull, making their tank even weaker. It would have considerably high DPS for a missile boat, but due to its high mass, bad agility, low speed, and weak tank, it'd go down under fire pretty fast. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.23 01:46:00 - [12] A gank Drake can't have 6 meds. It's those 6 meds that caused the nerf, even more than the resist bonus (which could go for what I care). Nobody mentioned that the Drake could have only 6 highs and an ECM bonus. We don't have an ECM BC while we have frig, cruiser, recon and BS. I wouldn't fly it, TBH, ECM got the shaft with Kali, but it's a possibility. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Xaildaine	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:39:00 - [13] The drake is done .. end... fin No changes incomming for that boat... See tux In any case id rather they reworked the Ferox than spent more time working on the Drake. The drake aint that bad... It will fill teh roll the Ferox had as a Missile mission boat. The Ferox is Awfull. Outclassed by in every way by every other BC in the game. I mean sure ..Someone has to have the worst BC but dose it have to be the worst by such a large amount?
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:44:00 - [14] To the OP: the only thing the community agrees upon is that we are definitely not in agreement with your ideas. Because I said so...
Quilan Ziller Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.23 08:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Adeptus Malkavius Edited by: Adeptus Malkavius on 22/11/2006 23:34:23 or a Gallente pilot who's too used to his overpowered ships... Overpowered? How so? Rabble rabble rabble. Why is more than 50% of EVE population flying... Ravens and Caracals? And if you think Gallente = I-Win, why don't you just learn the skills yourself? Not that I agree with the OP (I think that Tier 3 BCs are fine - except maybe for Drake, which needs a small boost). But all the anti-Gallente whiners like you should just go away. Anything that YOU don't use alweays seems overpowered, and you just whine. ______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein
Kalhystia	Posted - 2006.11.23 08:15:00 - [16] As said before, Myrmidon is fine now. With the HP boost in Kali (not applied to drones and fighters) you have to seriously if the extra DPS brought by 5 heavies is worth it, as they can be popped fast. And no sorry, recalling them is not that fast without to say only shields get healed, not armor or structure.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.11.23 08:49:00 - [17] Originally by: Butter Dog The community certainly does NOT agree that changes are needed. Nor will they ever, that is a fact. Oh btw, it seems that I rather messed up the shield extender / plates increase. Its 60% instead of 50%. Drakes problem wasn't only with its great tanking abilities. It has great tanking abilities but once you start using some of your med slots for stuff you'd likely to need in a fight its not that awesome. Its still pretty good ship though. _______________

Cadiz Caldari No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.23 08:53:00 - [18] Edited by: Cadiz on 23/11/2006 08:57:57 Originally by: Griever Takkow Design a " Gank " Drake that doesnt have a monster passive tank and doesnt have more dps than every other BC by a factor of 10. Replace the resist bonus with an explosion velocity bonus. It'll improve the performance of the Drake's weapons against high-speed ships - basically a missile equivalent of a tracking bonus, I suppose (and nobody seems to complain about tracking bonuses). Considering the insane capabilities for speed the new inertial stabilizers open up, something like this might actually be really useful. ------ Quartermaster, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.23 08:57:00 - [19] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Butter Dog The community certainly does NOT agree that changes are needed. Nor will they ever, that is a fact. Aha! I can disprove you. The community does agree that the Chimera ship model as it is on TQ at the moment needs adjustments in terms of size and centerpoint location! ...well, at least the part of the community that cares about the topic
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.23 09:01:00 - [20] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/11/2006 09:02:23 I hate when people say "This is what the community wants". You are so wrong. What you did is pick something people want (like adding the 7:th turret to the Hurricane), but then you have added lots of stuff to Drake for example, which would make it unbalanced to the Hurricane even with the 7:th turret. Also the Harbinger doesnt need more help, its already overpowered (just my opinion though, people dont agree with me). So no, I dont agree. Bad post. BAD. No candy for YOU. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Zeknichov Amarr Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.23 09:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Butter Dog The community certainly does NOT agree that changes are needed. Nor will they ever, that is a fact. Oh btw, it seems that I rather messed up the shield extender / plates increase. Its 60% instead of 50%. Drakes problem wasn't only with its great tanking abilities. It has great tanking abilities but once you start using some of your med slots for stuff you'd likely to need in a fight its not that awesome. Its still pretty good ship though. Deimos.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.23 09:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Quilan Ziller Originally by: Adeptus Malkavius Edited by: Adeptus Malkavius on 22/11/2006 23:34:23 or a Gallente pilot who's too used to his overpowered ships... Overpowered? How so? Rabble rabble rabble. Why is more than 50% of EVE population flying... Ravens and Caracals? And if you think Gallente = I-Win, why don't you just learn the skills yourself? Not that I agree with the OP (I think that Tier 3 BCs are fine - except maybe for Drake, which needs a small boost). But all the anti-Gallente whiners like you should just go away. Anything that YOU don't use alweays seems overpowered, and you just whine. Not wanting to get into the flamewar, but I have to dispute your figures a little. Lots of people, like myself, fly caldari. I chose caldari based on the race description right at the start of the game. Nothing to do with ships. I can tell you that whilst 'most people fly caldari' this is really not the case in PvP. In fact, it's actually quite unusual to see caldari ships in use for PvPing. The Raven and the Crow are perhaps exceptions, but the major representatives are Gallente and Minmatar. I expect the Rohk to change this, since it's a usable long range ship. I also hope that heavy assault missiles will serve to make the caracal a viable PvP platform. Now, I'm really thinking your figures are being skewed by the fact that the Raven is an excellent mission running/ratting ship. I agree, it is. It's strengths play exactly to the weaknesses of NPCs. I don't think you'd be denying that at the moment Nos-EWAR-Dominix is 'flavour of the month' pwnmobile. Myrmidon is cut from the same cloth. shrug I couldn't really care less about the drone bay size. 850dps peak does seem a little extreme to me - I'm not sure I can actually manage that in _any_ of the ships I can fly. (Full gank on my Raven starts to scratch up against 600-700, although admittedly that's not using rage torps). Then again, I've never really flown a drone boat. My only yardstick is the number of nos-ewar-drone-tank dominixes I keep running into when going out PvPing, especially in empire. Not forgetting of course the continual 'how do I beat this combo' discussion on the ships and modules forum. Drake's looking promising. Losing a launcher IMO was necessary - I want a fun ship, not a button marked 'pwn' that I press occasionally - I leave that to the devs :), but I'd still like to see that RoF bonus back, because it'll make the Drake a versatile and effective PvP ship. I know it can passive tank really well, but realistically if you fill all your mids with a passive tank, it's only the very stupid who will then proceed to charge into range of your heavy assault missiles, and stay there whilst you kill them. (OK, so that does include NPCs) Actually, I'm somewhat more suprised that I've not seen 'OMG ROHK PASSIVE TANK' moans. 50k shields 50% resists and 933s recharge time is quite doable, and you can still fit rails to it.
Xaildaine	Posted - 2006.11.23 09:54:00 - [23] Originally by: Quilan Ziller Overpowered? How so? Rabble rabble rabble. Why is more than 50% of EVE population flying... Ravens and Caracals? And if you think Gallente = I-Win, why don't you just learn the skills yourself? Not that I agree with the OP (I think that Tier 3 BCs are fine - except maybe for Drake, which needs a small boost). But all the anti-Gallente whiners like you should just go away. Anything that YOU don't use alweays seems overpowered, and you just whine. People choose Caldari for the stat point lay out .. not their ships. Once they get past grinding missions most train other race ships And strangely enough alot of them pick Gallente. Im mean if going to all the trouble of traing another races ships isnt a sure sign they may be above par then i dont know what is. Kali is making the Gap less at the top end and im glad for that O and Tux i feel that the player base generaly agree that the Ferox needs another Turret and PG to fit ^_^ I mean .. im just saying... sometimes we do agree
Xiliath JUDGE DREAD Inc. Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.23 11:25:00 - [24] I personally wasn't too happy with the hurrican loosing a turret, but I see it as a small tempest now, instead of a Slepnir with lower resist, I think it's good as it. I think the Myrmidion with the 125m3 is good as it. The Harbinger I have flown and thought it was good as is. And the Drake, I must say this is the only ship I see a problem with, I've flown it both pre/post nerf, and I think it should recieve it's ROF bonus back at least, with that it's like a small raven with resist bonus. Or maybe a ROF and Kinetic damage bonus. It seriously needs looked at, I can fly all these ships and have and think the Drake falls far behind.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.11.23 12:25:00 - [25] Regarding the hurricane: It got nerfed in two ways: - 1 turret slot and less grid. Imho one of the two nerfs should go, either have a 7 turret boat with not much grid left to fit any decent tank or have a 6 turret boat with enough grid to actually fit anything useful in the two remaining highs plus a decent tank. Actually I would prefer the 6 turret/more grid variant cause then the sleipnir is unchallenged damage wise, but taking away 1 turret slot and taking away grid thats needed to fill the new opened missile slot with anything useful (its only a stupid bonus-less missile slot minni ships are known for after all) is over the top.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.11.23 12:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Xaildaine O and Tux i feel that the player base generaly agree that the Ferox needs another Turret and PG to fit ^_^ I mean .. im just saying... sometimes we do agree I kind of agree to that as well, means abusing a graphic guy. We'll look into it post revelation, meaning I'll whine to other devs until they cave in _______________

skillbuyer	Posted - 2006.11.23 12:38:00 - [27] Ow, good point. I think many of the people who wish for another turret on the Ferox forget that the 3D model actually needs another spot to display one too...
Taran Blake De Re Metallica	Posted - 2006.11.23 13:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Tuxford Its still pretty good ship though. Not it isn't. Its a ship looking for a role that is already filled by another sub-par ship.
Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.11.23 13:33:00 - [29] Please read my thread on my opinion of this thread http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=430108
MOS DEF Devils Rejects	Posted - 2006.11.23 13:49:00 - [30] Most people ingame are cladari. That is a fact. Least are Minmatar i think. There were stats released about this a while ago. Now if a totally and ridiculously overpowered caldari ship is nerfed the whnage is overwhelming. It's not the amount of whining that should lead to changes. Ships need to be balanced. I can see the reasoning behind the tanknerf and dmg boost you want but isn't it just a cheap cerberus then basically? If they add the ROF bonus again they better kill that tank or the ship breaks the game. I fought it on SiSi when it had both boni and it was not just overpowered but plain broken.

James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.23 14:15:00 - [31] Originally by: Ithildin Heavy drones don't do battleship damage. They do battleship SUPPORT damage. Heavy drones do CRUISER damage, provided they are the dominating damage source. I'm curious, what's the basis for this comparison. As far as I can tell 5 heavy drones (tech 2) is 250-300 (depending on damage type) dps. In a caracal, with absolute max skills and all T2 gear, I seem to recall it does about 184-230. (depending on damage type) That's a healthy margin more damage. Then again, heavy assault missiles may well be enough to take the caracal up to 290ish. OK, perhaps they do do cruiser damage. Wait, that's before adding on any drone damage bonuses from the ship. I appreciate that's neglecting the discussion of relative fittings (I've had to assume fully T2 max skills to get that number out of a caracal), and the fact that drones are eminently shootable. (although at 100m sig, and 2500 hitpoints, that's not stunningly easy either) And of course, I've ignored the fact that smartbombs really hurt drones - a 300 damage blast from a large smarty hits all of them. How do other racial cruisers fare? I've not worked out absolute max DPS on minmatar or amarrian cruisers.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.23 14:17:00 - [32] Originally by: MOS DEF I fought it on SiSi when it had both boni and it was not just overpowered but plain broken. It's lost a launcher since then, as well.
Slevin Kalebra	Posted - 2006.11.23 14:28:00 - [33] Originally by: MOS DEF Now if a totally and ridiculously overpowered caldari ship is nerfed the whnage is overwhelming. It's not the amount of whining that should lead to changes. Ships need to be balanced. I can see the reasoning behind the tanknerf and dmg boost you want but isn't it just a cheap cerberus then basically? If they add the ROF bonus again they better kill that tank or the ship breaks the game. I fought it on SiSi when it had both boni and it was not just overpowered but plain broken. The problem isn't that the Drake was nerfed, I think most people (yes, even caldari) expected that something would have to be done with the Drake as, yes, it was overpowered as it stood. The problem was the way in which the nerfbat hit, making it little more than the Mk. 2 Ferox. The caldari fleet is already full of ships which conform to a very similar standard all the way through. What the caldari players were excited about (apart from the obvious raw overpower), was that the Drake broke the mould - it was something a little different (not radically different but certainly less conservative). The tank-nerf and damage boost option may make it a 'cheap Cerberus' but so what? Drake will still be slower and with a bigger sig take harder hits than a Cerb, so there's still a place for the HAC. The Cerb is horribly overpriced anyway... way beyond the price range where many people are going to even risk it in PvP. If the Drake forced the price of Cerbs down by even 50% the producers would still be making a killing on them.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 14:33:00 - [34] Originally by: James Lyrus I appreciate that's neglecting the discussion of relative fittings (I've had to assume fully T2 max skills to get that number out of a caracal), and the fact that drones are eminently shootable. (although at 100m sig, and 2500 hitpoints, that's not stunningly easy either) Well, a Heavy drone has the same sig rad as a Cruiser- that means it is imminently vulnerable to cruiser-sized weaponry (such as one might find on, for example, the Hurricane or the Drake). BCs are, in fact, Cruiser-killers by trade. If a Hurricane can't kill an un-tanked cruiser sized object with 2500 HP, somethings wrong with the Hurricane, not the Myrmidon. The fact of the matter is, anyone flying the Myrmidon with 5 heavies and no spares is commiting expensive suicide- anyone with any sense will, upon seeing 5 heavies pop out, know what to do next. But thats alright- 5 heavies do produce rather OTT damage, combined with Myr's turrets. If the Myr is flying, say, 2 heavies and 3 mediums, with medium spares, its damge is suddenly somewhat less impressive, particularly after the enemy has forced you to deploy replacement mediums for those high powered heavies........ -----------------------------------------------
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.23 14:43:00 - [35] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 23/11/2006 14:44:27 Originally by: Majin82 Myrmidon Remove 2 Turrets Increase Drone bay to 150 m3 HUH!?!?!?! read better .. we all agre to reduce turret slots, but for a great drone bay.. change from 125 to 150 it's NOTHING!! a real drone ship should not care drone losses, so 200m3 at least, 250m3 even better. If we get this i'm disposable to loose also 3 turrets, not 2.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.23 14:53:00 - [36] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 23/11/2006 14:53:27 Originally by: Butter Dog The community certainly does NOT agree that changes are needed. The 125m3 drone bay on the Myrm is fine (you cant safely use heavies but thats not a problem really). The Hurricane is fine, really nice ship. The Harbinger is great. The Drake... personally I'm in favour of giving it back the ROF bonus, but thats it, and Tux has already said they are considering that. So, please don't assume the rest of us agree with you. We don't. you are clueless Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.23 15:01:00 - [37] I've tested the Hurricane with both 7 and 6 turrets, and with 7 I could take on a Harbringer and lose some and win some, now with just 6 I lose every time, it needs the 7th back and it would be fine. 7 turrets, no launcher, no powergrid change, just the turret.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.23 15:07:00 - [38] Originally by: Tuxford Drakes problem wasn't only with its great tanking abilities. Sure it was, give it the changes I just mentioned and see if its high DPS mean much when it can die in 30 seconds. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.23 15:12:00 - [39] 7 turrets the Hurricane, RoF + Kinetic bonus to Drake on 6 launchers Add 100% more sig radius to Large Shield extenders 1600mm Plates should take 700 pg, and add 50% more mass addition. That will go a long way to fix over sized plates while allowing for flexability. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.23 16:03:00 - [40] they are only tier II u know...there should be tier III's

Max Manlove Miner Protection Guild Astrophobics	Posted - 2006.11.23 16:30:00 - [41] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Xaildaine O and Tux i feel that the player base generaly agree that the Ferox needs another Turret and PG to fit ^_^ I mean .. im just saying... sometimes we do agree I kind of agree to that as well, means abusing a graphic guy. We'll look into it post revelation, meaning I'll whine to other devs until they cave in I'll love you to death if you pimp the Moa too! ♥♥♥ Protecting Your Right To Love Thy Neighbor ♥♥♥
Xaildaine	Posted - 2006.11.23 20:31:00 - [42] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Xaildaine O and Tux i feel that the player base generaly agree that the Ferox needs another Turret and PG to fit ^_^ I mean .. im just saying... sometimes we do agree I kind of agree to that as well, means abusing a graphic guy. We'll look into it post revelation, meaning I'll whine to other devs until they cave in YAY Tux you just made my day
JFxSummoner	Posted - 2006.11.24 00:45:00 - [43] omg omg omg Tux u serious about the 6th turret and grid to ferox?? tux FTW
Agrias Hellion	Posted - 2006.11.24 03:11:00 - [44] People seem to think have spare waves of drones is a bad thing. Considering at the moment you first wave is more likely to mwd to primary, stop half wasy. Deselect primary target, randomly target some other ships and then split up. All with a nice stop and BE a target. Have a drone ship with the opportunity to field replacement drones would be nice, since they are our primary weapon. Remove high slots, give the ship a +5m3 bonus per level or something of that ilk. You changed the bonuses on the Scorpion to make it a proper ECM platform and the Blackbird received the same. Give us a drone battlecruiser. I wonder why I fly Amarr.
Xaildaine	Posted - 2006.11.24 03:36:00 - [45] Originally by: MOS DEF Most people ingame are cladari. That is a fact. Least are Minmatar i think. There were stats released about this a while ago. Now if a totally and ridiculously overpowered caldari ship is nerfed the whnage is overwhelming. It's not the amount of whining that should lead to changes. Ships need to be balanced. I can see the reasoning behind the tanknerf and dmg boost you want but isn't it just a cheap cerberus then basically? If they add the ROF bonus again they better kill that tank or the ship breaks the game. I fought it on SiSi when it had both boni and it was not just overpowered but plain broken. I think you will find most People rolled Caldari for the stat point layout.... not their ships Most will train another races ships once they get out of the Learning skill grind. You are however right about 2 things... 1 The Drake was over powered with 7 launchers and a ROF bonus and its tank. We all knew it .. yes .. Even us Caldari 2 The Tank will need a nerf if the dammage is increased The Cerberus will still be a better all around ship.. just the stupid price asked for one will nolonger be acceptable when there is another ship that is compareable.
Mad Rage Amarr Doom Guard	Posted - 2006.11.24 05:06:00 - [46] well am not sure for all of you i personaly only tested the harbinger and i find its perfect the way it is only problem i have with it its the calabration points that suck lol coz its renders the rigs useless at some points but it would be nice to give back the 1.0x dmg it had before 2 patches ago lol but even so the med drones compensate the needed dmg types
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.11.24 08:59:00 - [47] Bah, I've mostly stopped bothering. It's a fact that CCP doesn't want to make really good Minmatar ships anymore, because they're afraid of the large, whining Caldari/Gallente population. You can see how unbalanced the new BCs are by comparing their damage with just T1 drones/guns. It's much worse than in the graphs posted so far, because T1 drones do almost as much damage as T2 ones, while the difference is larger for the guns. A Myrmidon with T1 drones will kill any other T1 fitted BC far too easily... (and yes, a lot of people will fly these with T1 due to skills or overpriced T2 gear).
Gladox	Posted - 2006.11.24 10:41:00 - [48] Community agreed changes needed? What community would that be? Personally, I think that the balance is just right now.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.24 10:47:00 - [49] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/11/2006 10:48:23 Originally by: Atar I've tested the Hurricane with both 7 and 6 turrets, and with 7 I could take on a Harbringer and lose some and win some, now with just 6 I lose every time, it needs the 7th back and it would be fine. 7 turrets, no launcher, no powergrid change, just the turret. I havent been able to beat any of the other battlecruisers alone yet (in a Hurricane) on TQ, so I guess its balanced now. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.24 11:12:00 - [50] Originally by: Xaildaine I think you will find most People rolled Caldari for the stat point layout.... not their ships Most will train another races ships once they get out of the Learning skill grind. It is not suits well into roleplay. Ever heard about roleplay? It renders whole weapon class(missiles) out of the PvP. Why CP do not tell us, that missiles are not suitable for PvP and may be effective only against Guristas? Quote: You are however right about 2 things... 1 The Drake was over powered with 7 launchers and a ROF bonus and its tank. We all knew it .. yes .. Even us Caldari Drake was not overpowered. Drake was weakest in terms of DPS BC tier2. And Drake is slowest and least agile BC in the game. So high DPS(yes, around 350-400, compare to 800+ from Myrmidon or Hadbinger) from usage of high damage HAMS is very doubtful. It is a bit difficult to catch any target except caldari BC-BS sized ships into 15 km range. Quote: The Cerberus will still be a better all around ship.. just the stupid price asked for one will nolonger be acceptable when there is another ship that is compareable. And everybody in the game knows that Cerb is not PvP ship, but Cerb costs more than Vaga. Do you really propose for us, caldari, Cerb instead of Drake? --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>

Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.24 14:00:00 - [51] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 23/11/2006 14:53:27 Originally by: Butter Dog The community certainly does NOT agree that changes are needed. The 125m3 drone bay on the Myrm is fine (you cant safely use heavies but thats not a problem really). The Hurricane is fine, really nice ship. The Harbinger is great. The Drake... personally I'm in favour of giving it back the ROF bonus, but thats it, and Tux has already said they are considering that. So, please don't assume the rest of us agree with you. We don't. you are clueless So clueless the Devs agree with my perspective. Come back with a real arguement, not a vague insult.
Melicien Tetro Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.24 14:35:00 - [52] They already admitted that they hit the drake too hard. However, as far as giving it both it's turret and rof bonus back.... I think it's an issue of implied racial roles. Caldari ships aren't supposed to do more damage than anyone/everyone else. They just aren't. You have a tank, you have range, e-war, HAMs give missile users a new increased damage pvp option.. but really. About the kinetic damage, get over it. It's not that much of a problem. A properly tanked ship has pretty even resists across the board, when you consider it's total life span. It's just more rock/paper/scissors. For the myrmidon, it doesn't need anymore boosts. They could take away it's turrets altogether, and I think it would be a fine ship. It definitely doesn't need a reserve heavy. For the hurricane, 7 turrets was really overkill. For the Harbinger, consider using less cap intensive guns. Consider the possibility that an amarr ship might never be intended to repair itself. Consider sometimes turning off your guns. Consider cap boosters, the gallente already figured this out, why haven't the amarr? Consider that all amarr ships are designed with an implied fleet for support/to be part of a cohesive fleet. I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be **ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ***** nerf. True story.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.24 14:56:00 - [53] Originally by: Melicien Tetro They already admitted that they hit the drake too hard. We, Caldari, are So Happy! Somebody admitted something. Great! Originally by: Melicien Tetro However, as far as giving it both it's turret and rof bonus back.... And even with this 7-th launcher and ROF bonus Drake will have WORST dps among all BC tier2. And even this worst DPS Drake cannot use effctively because 15km range is to difficult for sluggish Caldari BC. Quote: Caldari ships aren't supposed to do more damage than anyone/everyone else. We know. Caldari ships aren't supposed to do damage to anyone else. Good example is Kali Raven which has lower DPS than Brutix. Or Caldari ECM ships. It is supposed to remove from them any tank and limit DPS to the Punisher level. Quote: You have a tank, you have range, e-war, HAMs give missile users a new increased damage pvp option.. but really. We have tank only in PvE. Many thanks. We have range without damage. Many thanks. We have e-war, which rendered to be useless in Kali. We have HAM, but cannot use it effectively - our ships ARE SLOOOOOOW and SLUUUUGGISH. Quote: About the kinetic damage, get over it. It's not that much of a problem. A properly tanked ship has pretty even resists across the board, when you consider it's total life span. Kinetic damage is MOST tanked resist in Eve. And all caldari ships have LOWEST DPS. So it is a problem. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Melicien Tetro Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.24 15:08:00 - [54] Originally by: Zixxa Quote: You have a tank, you have range, e-war, HAMs give missile users a new increased damage pvp option.. but really. We have tank only in PvE. Many thanks. We have range without damage. Many thanks. We have e-war, which rendered to be useless in Kali. We have HAM, but cannot use it effectively - our ships ARE SLOOOOOOW and SLUUUUGGISH. Only in PVE? Erm. Right. You could fit rails, you have ships for that. You are the only ones who can use e-war effectively now. Have you ever tried to use a blaster? I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be **ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ***** nerf. True story.
OneSock	Posted - 2006.11.24 15:21:00 - [55] As I see it caldari have had the best lv4 mission runner in the game for quite some time now, even ferox can tank lv4s well so I say having an inferior Drake pays that back. Live with it as we have done. One mistake these discussions seem to make is the assumption that these BCs will always go up against each other, well no that is not Eve is it ? Likely they will get ganked by a squad of interceptors or some nonsense so what's the big deal if they are a little unbalanced ?
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.24 15:33:00 - [56] Originally by: Melicien Tetro Originally by: Zixxa Quote: You have a tank, you have range, e-war, HAMs give missile users a new increased damage pvp option.. but really. We have tank only in PvE. Many thanks. We have range without damage. Many thanks. We have e-war, which rendered to be useless in Kali. We have HAM, but cannot use it effectively - our ships ARE SLOOOOOOW and SLUUUUGGISH. Only in PVE? Erm. Right. I am almost always right. Originally by: Melicien Tetro You could fit rails, you have ships for that. Yes, we could. We also could fit projectiles and lasers. Effect is similar. No damage output(Eagle is good example), but for rails we have better distance than for the lasers and projectiles. Quote: You are the only ones who can use e-war effectively now. ECM is nerfed, forget about it. Quote: Have you ever tried to use a blaster? Yes, Taranis, for example. And I was absolutely happy. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.24 15:53:00 - [57] Shutup, Zixxa I've never seen you make a decent post in any thread. You're nothing but a spineless alt troll.
Melicien Tetro Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:06:00 - [58] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Melicien Tetro Originally by: Zixxa Quote: You have a tank, you have range, e-war, HAMs give missile users a new increased damage pvp option.. but really. We have tank only in PvE. Many thanks. We have range without damage. Many thanks. We have e-war, which rendered to be useless in Kali. We have HAM, but cannot use it effectively - our ships ARE SLOOOOOOW and SLUUUUGGISH. Only in PVE? Erm. Right. I am almost always right. Originally by: Melicien Tetro You could fit rails, you have ships for that. Yes, we could. We also could fit projectiles and lasers. Effect is similar. No damage output(Eagle is good example), but for rails we have better distance than for the lasers and projectiles. Quote: You are the only ones who can use e-war effectively now. ECM is nerfed, forget about it. Quote: Have you ever tried to use a blaster? Yes, Taranis, for example. And I was absolutely happy. ECM is only really getting nerfed on non ecm ships. Are you daft? The eagle has no damage output? Really? I was hallucinating all of those times I've seen it reach into a skirmish and pick off targets at it's leisure from a safe distance with a hefty tank to protect it from the same fate. I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be **ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ***** nerf. True story.
Melicien Tetro Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:07:00 - [59] Originally by: Butter Dog Shutup, Zixxa I've never seen you make a decent post in any thread. You're nothing but a spineless alt troll. I concur. I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be **ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ***** nerf. True story.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:28:00 - [60] You IGNORE trolls, dont feed them ffs... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:38:00 - [61] Edited by: Patch86 on 24/11/2006 16:40:22 But Melicien was funny Or the sig was anyhow........ -----------------------------------------------
Melicien Tetro Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:44:00 - [62] Originally by: Patch86 Edited by: Patch86 on 24/11/2006 16:40:22 But Melicien was funny Or the sig was anyhow........ The is actually a statement of mine from earlier this morning, in response to a "gallente need a nerf" post. I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be **ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ***** nerf. True story.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:01:00 - [63] Originally by: Butter Dog Shutup, Zixxa Shutup, kid. Originally by: Butter Dog I've never seen you make a decent post in any thread. Visit a doctor, because you are blind. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:05:00 - [64] Originally by: Melicien Tetro ECM is only really getting nerfed on non ecm ships. ECM is really nerfed EVERYWHERE. Quote: The eagle has no damage output? Really? Yes, my dear friend. 4 Med Rails, no damage bonus. Guess dps. Oh, yes, it is enough for the t1 frigate! And after boosting HP and extenders/plate, role of the Eagle is to get dusty in the hangar. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Nocturnal Prince Tech 2 Holdings Limited	Posted - 2006.11.24 19:02:00 - [65] ok, here is a slightly 'out of the box' idea for a gank but not uber tank Drake. Same slots as original (7 launchers) RoF bonus and the second bonus is 10% sensor strength per lvl. Now here me out on this. PvErs get jammed less in those guristas missions (not a great bonus I'll admit). PvPers also get jammed less but with the up-comming scan probe changes you will get scanned less (see this post) The result is the Drake has lost the OMGWTF!1! resists and gains gank. If needed you can further nerf the actual amount of shield on it. Im not sure I would like that change myself tbh but at least it isnt just another cookie cutter poor-mans-nighthawk/Cerb setup. /me dons flame retardant suit and waits for the resident thread troll to open up... .


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