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Nicholas Goldfinder
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
12
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Posted - 2015.06.22 01:11:18 -
[1] - Quote
Are just bad players.
It is like complaining about being blobbed.
Shall we remove fleets?
lol
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
40
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Posted - 2015.06.22 01:29:27 -
[2] - Quote
Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:Are just bad players. It is like complaining about being blobbed. Shall we remove fleets? lol
People defending boosters are jsut bad PvPers that need the extra help.
See i can also make post with no meaning or backing... |
Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
525
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Posted - 2015.06.22 03:45:05 -
[3] - Quote
The Eve O Forums greatest snitch strikes again.
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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Portmanteau
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2015.06.22 09:07:43 -
[4] - Quote
Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:Are just bad players. It is like complaining about being blobbed. Shall we remove fleets? lol
Blobs come onto the field ... boosters don't
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Nameira Vanis-Tor
Hoplite Brigade
198
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Posted - 2015.06.22 09:12:39 -
[5] - Quote
Off grid boosters are the same principle as 'Skynetting', vastly increased combat performance for negligible risk.
I expect it will be nerfed/removed by CCP eventually just as Skynetting was. |
Nikolai Agnon
Dirt 'n' Glitter Test Alliance Please Ignore
30
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Posted - 2015.06.22 09:46:11 -
[6] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:Off grid boosters are the same principle as 'Skynetting', vastly increased combat performance for negligible risk.
I expect it will be nerfed/removed by CCP eventually just as Skynetting was.
Hence all the hype surrounding the Brain-in-a-Box project. Means on-grid boosts will become possible |
Varrinox
Last Whisper
102
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Posted - 2015.06.22 12:22:42 -
[7] - Quote
Boosters are a ******** out of date mechanic that needs addressing far more urgently than anymore ship hull redesign or balance or more overview tweaks.
They along with numerous other ways of using alts to gain a pay to win advantage over a legit solo pilot are a cancer in this game. They have their places on grid in any engagement but in there present state are no more than a joke.
This comes from a person who has done it as well. I used to run with personal booster and multiple accounts in recons/logi. now days I just solo as that encourages more interaction with humans and this is not a Korean grind MMO it's a western player interaction bases MMO (apparently).
Some risk vs reward that CCP always talk about needs to be applied to boosters.
Also add delayed local to all of k-space whilst your at it.
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Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic Space Warriors
857
|
Posted - 2015.06.22 22:14:25 -
[8] - Quote
Varrinox wrote:Boosters are a ******** out of date mechanic that needs addressing far more urgently than anymore ship hull redesign or balance or more overview tweaks.
They along with numerous other ways of using alts to gain a pay to win advantage over a legit solo pilot are a cancer in this game. They have their places on grid in any engagement but in there present state are no more than a joke.
This comes from a person who has done it as well. I used to run with personal booster and multiple accounts in recons/logi. now days I just solo as that encourages more interaction with humans and this is not a Korean grind MMO it's a western player interaction bases MMO (apparently).
Some risk vs reward that CCP always talk about needs to be applied to boosters.
Also add delayed local to all of k-space whilst your at it.
eve is not solo game so cry more. |
Nicholas Goldfinder
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
13
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Posted - 2015.06.22 23:23:15 -
[9] - Quote
lol
you can't kill a booster and you think you are not bad?
something is wrong here... |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
455
|
Posted - 2015.06.22 23:51:16 -
[10] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:Varrinox wrote:Boosters are a ******** out of date mechanic that needs addressing far more urgently than anymore ship hull redesign or balance or more overview tweaks.
They along with numerous other ways of using alts to gain a pay to win advantage over a legit solo pilot are a cancer in this game. They have their places on grid in any engagement but in there present state are no more than a joke.
This comes from a person who has done it as well. I used to run with personal booster and multiple accounts in recons/logi. now days I just solo as that encourages more interaction with humans and this is not a Korean grind MMO it's a western player interaction bases MMO (apparently).
Some risk vs reward that CCP always talk about needs to be applied to boosters.
Also add delayed local to all of k-space whilst your at it.
eve is not solo game so cry more.
Do you get bored of being the 49th highest damage on a killmail or do you find it fulfilling?
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
455
|
Posted - 2015.06.22 23:53:05 -
[11] - Quote
Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:lol
you can't kill a booster and you think you are not bad?
something is wrong here...
How you suggest killing boosters for solo/small gang players when they can instantly dock or jump gate, or need perfect skill prober with implants to find quickly? |
Paranoid Loyd
5922
|
Posted - 2015.06.22 23:53:52 -
[12] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Bad Messenger wrote: eve is not solo game so cry more.
Do you get bored of being the 49th highest damage on a killmail or do you find it fulfilling? Went back five pages on his killboard until I reached one with more than 3 people on it. (It had 6 people) Then again he doesn't seem to be undocking this toon lately.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1455
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 00:11:44 -
[13] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:lol
you can't kill a booster and you think you are not bad?
something is wrong here... How you suggest killing boosters for solo/small gang players when they can instantly dock or jump gate, or need perfect skill prober with implants to find quickly?
No longer need that. if they can have a booster alt. Why do you feel like its such a problem having a prober alt?
More ships in space = better. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
455
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 02:32:40 -
[14] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Bad Messenger wrote: eve is not solo game so cry more.
Do you get bored of being the 49th highest damage on a killmail or do you find it fulfilling? Went back five pages on his killboard until I reached one with more than 3 people on it. (It had 6 people) Then again he doesn't seem to be undocking this toon lately.
His killboard tells another story that's not entirely complimentary.
Whatever happened to Nasranite Watch anyway? |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1031
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 08:58:49 -
[15] - Quote
I hate the fact that I always need some crappy alt sitting off grid somewhere with links, which I have to drag around with me just because CCP likes subscriptions from alts. fannoying. |
Petre en Thielles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 14:32:47 -
[16] - Quote
Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:Are just bad players. It is like complaining about being blobbed. Shall we remove fleets? lol
GöêGöêGöêGöêGöêGöêGöêGöêGöêGöêGöê?????WUT????? GöêGöêGò¦GûöGûöGûöGûöGûöGò¦GöêGöêGöê?????????? GöêGò¦GöêGöêGò¦GûöGò¦Gò¦Gò¦GûÅGöêGöêGöê?????Göê Gò¦GöêGöêGò¦GöüGò¦GûöGûöGûöGûöGûöGò¦GöüGò«GöêGöê GûÅGöêGûòGöâGûòGò¦GûöGò¦Gò¦GûöGò¦GûòGò«GöâGöêGöê GûÅGöêGûòGò¦GöüGûÅGûèGûòGûòGûïGûòGûòGöüGò»GöêGöê Gò¦GöêGöêGò¦Gò¦GûöGò¡Gò«GûöGûö Gò¦Gò¦GöêGöêGöê GöêGò¦GöêGöêGûÅGò¡GöüGöüGöüGöüGò«GûòGûòGöêGöêGöê GöêGöêGò¦GöêGò¦GûéGûéGûéGûéGûéGûéGò¦Gò¦GöêGöêGöê GöêGöêGöêGöêGûÅGöèGöêGöêGöêGöêGöèGöêGöêGöêGò¦Göê GöêGöêGöêGöêGûÅGöèGöêGöêGöêGöêGöèGûòGò¦GöêGöêGò¦ GöêGò¦GûöGò¦GûÅGöèGöêGöêGöêGöêGöèGûòGò¦GûöGò¦Gûò GöêGûÅGöêGöêGöêGò¦GöêGöêGöêGöêGò»GöêGöêGöêGûòGûò GöêGò¦GöêGöêGöêGò¦GöêGöêGöêGöêGò¦GöêGöêGöêGò¦GöêGò¦ GöêGöêGò¦GöêGöêGûòGûöGûöGûöGûöGûÅGöêGöêGò¦Gò¦Gò¦Gò¦GûÅ GöêGò¦GûöGöêGöêGûòGöêGöêGöêGöêGûÅGöêGöêGûöGò¦GûöGûö GöêGò¦GûéGûéGûéGò¦GöêGöêGöêGöêGò¦GûéGûéGûéGò¦Göê |
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution The Initiative.
438
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 15:56:45 -
[17] - Quote
Players who use off-grid boosters also like to sniff dinner-ladies corsets, and share 99.8% of the DNA of crabs.
There's absolutely no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact.
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
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Varrinox
Last Whisper
106
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 20:36:59 -
[18] - Quote
To the ones who based the validity of my argument upon my killboard. When I do decide to play, which I rare now days, I am an FC for the most part and as such usually have more pilots than just myself on the killmail. Usually a mix new bros that have never PvP'd and I try to teach them the ropes in the Amarr Militia and more regular names that just like to fly with me. Granted I rarely manage to pull any meaningful numbers like back in the day when my militia fleets used to get 20-30 fairly regularly, but such is EvEs population decline.
Base your argument on fact of the mechanics impact directly upon each individuals experience of the game not your opinion of the one stating his opinion of the impact on the game. Doing anything other than this is just mindless smack talk.
Don't get me wrong, I love EvE, it's concept is superior to every other game ever made. Alas it has lost it's was in my opinion and needs a lot of changes. Kill2 and Fozzie have made good changes in particular with ship balancing as it has made all races viable at all levels of PvP, bar a few exceptions.
I would love to see 50k+ pilots online at peak times like I did when i first started playing [2010] but rarely see above 25k now. I used to make tutorial videos on YouTube also to help new pilots learn because CCP did such a god awful job of teaching them everything there is to know in this vast game, granted that is no easy task. Hell I would love to see Eve break 100k pilots online, but in its current state that would not be viable in terms of attracting new players and retaining them and having the hardware capable of running nodes effectively to give people those huge fleet fights that get talked about and actually be a fun minute to minute game play experience.
Anyway this is fast become me writing a love letter to my estranged mistress Ms.Eve Online.
Edit - I should also add that in previous post I used the word "Solo" to indicate just 1 account 1 person 1 PC. Not pure solo PvP.
I hope you have a good day, week, month, year and live. May your awake hours be full of laughter and joy and dreams full of your most pleasurable desires.
Varr |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1455
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 20:55:18 -
[19] - Quote
Varrinox wrote:To the ones who based the validity of my argument upon my killboard. When I do decide to play, which I rare now days, I am an FC for the most part and as such usually have more pilots than just myself on the killmail. Usually a mix new bros that have never PvP'd and I try to teach them the ropes in the Amarr Militia and more regular names that just like to fly with me. Granted I rarely manage to pull any meaningful numbers like back in the day when my militia fleets used to get 20-30 fairly regularly, but such is EvEs population decline.
Base your argument on fact of the mechanics impact directly upon each individuals experience of the game not your opinion of the one stating his opinion of the impact on the game. Doing anything other than this is just mindless smack talk.
Don't get me wrong, I love EvE, it's concept is superior to every other game ever made. Alas it has lost it's was in my opinion and needs a lot of changes. Kill2 and Fozzie have made good changes in particular with ship balancing as it has made all races viable at all levels of PvP, bar a few exceptions.
I would love to see 50k+ pilots online at peak times like I did when i first started playing [2010] but rarely see above 25k now. I used to make tutorial videos on YouTube also to help new pilots learn because CCP did such a god awful job of teaching them everything there is to know in this vast game, granted that is no easy task. Hell I would love to see Eve break 100k pilots online, but in its current state that would not be viable in terms of attracting new players and retaining them and having the hardware capable of running nodes effectively to give people those huge fleet fights that get talked about and actually be a fun minute to minute game play experience.
Anyway this is fast become me writing a love letter to my estranged mistress Ms.Eve Online.
Edit - I should also add that in previous post I used the word "Solo" to indicate just 1 account 1 person 1 PC. Not pure solo PvP.
I hope you have a good day, week, month, year and live. May your awake hours be full of laughter and joy and dreams full of your most pleasurable desires.
Varr
Solo pilots have always been in a stark minority. The game shines at a fleet level. The bulk of people play to get into a good small to medium size slugfest.
The vocal minority of 'soloers' who are supposed to be pro but do nothing more than whine about how unfair the game is are a joke. Balancing the game at the solo level will do nothing for eve subscription numbers imo. Encouraging people to step up and take fleets out and create content is really the way to keep eve going.
As per usual, the main problem is the players choices, not the game as such. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 21:08:31 -
[20] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: As per usual, the main problem is the players choices, not the game as such.
Sadly that player choice is: Dont engage, bring your booster alt or join a fleet.
There should be a real option to do solo PvP. I dont have time to find a fleet to roam with every day, that means i do PvE instead since that is something i can do whenever i feel like it without having to bring an army online (suicide PvP is only fun the first 1-2 times, good fights are fun every time) |
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1455
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 21:10:13 -
[21] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: As per usual, the main problem is the players choices, not the game as such.
Sadly that player choice is: Dont engage, bring your booster alt or join a fleet. There should be a real option to do solo PvP. I dont have time to find a fleet to roam with every day, that means i do PvE instead since that is something i can do whenever i feel like it without having to bring an army online (suicide PvP is only fun the first 1-2 times, good fights are fun every time)
There is a real option to do solo pvp. Just undock and go fight. Its not supposed to be easy, or fair. You are supposed to kill or die then say gf regardless.
Fact is that eve is an mmo. Its amazing how many people are constantly searching for this solo nirvana in a game that isnt build for it.
If you just want to log on and do some meaningless 1v1s, go to a trade hub and check to see whos doing legit duels.
Or join a proper pvp corp in your timezone and you wont have to spend ages looking for a fleet. |
Varrinox
Last Whisper
106
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 21:21:06 -
[22] - Quote
There is no need to directly quote me when I am the post above you.
I agree the game should not be "balanced" around solo. Interactions with players in a friendly and hostile manner are at its core. In my experience willing FCs are the single biggest content generator in EvE by a margin of about........ 1923418927349127863410246178256107235 to 1.
But equally the game should not be "balanced" around purely fleet work or small medium gangs. We all know the "glorious" huge fleet fights that often make headlines in the gaming community are actually huge lag fests that in terms of minute to minute game play are incredibly boring. Also the majority of content that currently exists is within the solo/small-medium gang meta, not large fleet. Not to mention the obnoxiously long form up times for bigger fleets.
Balanced in gaming terms usually means - Every avatar, in our case ships, and players are at equal footing. This is a sandbox MMORPG. There is no "balanced" in the normal sense in my opinion. Every pilot can at some point fulfill every roll, no need for tedious "my ships is bad etc". Racial homogenization is one of the biggest potential failures of any ship designs possible.
Before this becomes a discussion about EvE in general and not just boosters I will try to get us back on the rails here Crosi.
Offgrid boosters, the only kind that are an issue, have a far bigger impact on the solo and small gang meta than at fleet level. Most fleets can find some players to provide boosters so all participants on all sides of all fights can be on that playing field. The pilots who enjoy lone wolfing, or just a group of a few friends non of whom have alts and all want to be on grid in direct combat ships are at a massive disadvantage to those who use a separate account somewhere else in system to give them an advantage that is largely hidden until the engagement has begun.
I will add my main gripe with them is that as someone who tries to encourage new players in to PvP and often has no access to links fighting people with them is tedious and demoralizing. the lengths we have to go to as a group to stop them able to essentially 2v10 us. Demoralizing because, whilst a few losses here and there is fine, people like to win at least some of the time. It is almost the new guys who die over and over again in such a short in equal manner that it teachers them nothing about PvP really other than "this guy>me".
Anyway, I find that in general these kind of discussions are somewhat pointless as CCP pays little to no attention to general forums posts and as such all this is for nothing. I suggest you all go about your previous business and forget about this post. I shall continue not logging in and generally being a bit bitter about EvE in general.
I bid you good day. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1455
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 21:34:16 -
[23] - Quote
Every avatar is not at an equal footing, by design. |
Lucy Callagan
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Drama Sutra
22
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Posted - 2015.06.23 21:37:20 -
[24] - Quote
Why do discutions on this forums only (or at least mainly) go around low sec ?
I mean, maybe offgrid boosters are broken in low sec, I dont know, i dont pvp here.
But in null sec and whs, OGB are just fine and don't need any nerf.
For a solo pilot: You go roam in other people's "home". They have all here, stations, jump bridges, poses etc... All what you don't have. Having an ogb alt allows you to: Avoid gate camps. Reequilibrate fights. sometime ninja tackle ratter and start fight that way.
As a small gang group. Again, they just allow your gang to be a bit more powerful and reequilibrate fights.
And OGB are already hard enought to manage. Every time i go up for a fleet everyone is having an argue about who is going to bring its link alt this time ? Why ? Because it's utterly annoying to manage (especially if you're monoscreen). When you find an engagement, you got to start the fight with your main ship, warp off make a safe or go on a gate where there is no npc, check combats, or check if there is not a nasty alpha nado la ding o your gate, bear you mates request "where the **** are the links man", "dude squad 2 is not getting link", "move me to squad leader positions". Usually, once all that is set, either you've lost your ship cause you were to focused on where to position your links. Either you had to bail cause you couldn't tank/hold/counter ewar either the fight is already finished. So no nerf needed here.
I can understand that static links staying on a low sec station all the day can be a problem. A good solution for that could be that you cannot run links unless you're like 5 or 10km off a station.
[17:34:53] LucyCallagan > Respectez mon Eliterie je vous prie !
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 22:22:47 -
[25] - Quote
Lucy Callagan wrote: I can understand that static links staying on a low sec station all the day can be a problem. A good solution for that could be that you cannot run links unless you're like 5 or 10km off a station.
Or add a timer so you cant dock/jump gate instant after using links. This would mean that you have to pay watch your booster and most of the time it would likely be easier to just bring it on grid for a chance to keep it "safe". Command ships are natural bricks, if someone kill your booster while your logi is alive they would easily kill any other ship you bring on grid, most combat ships are tanked like a wet paper bag compared to what CS can do |
Nicholas Goldfinder
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 11:42:30 -
[26] - Quote
...or probe / gate camp a booster with cruiser fleet with logic... not many are required
plus, if u leave proper tackle on both sides, jumping would not prevent death
given the amount of isks that ppl put in creating their links toons (training queues=plex=isk -> ship is not the only risks there) their strength seems to me not op
i don't have boosters
i avoid or kill boosters
or use other's boosters
i just play the game
shall we nerf implants? shall we nerf what?
many seem to want an easier game... then i think they are bad: instead of accepting the challenge or letting others have their game, they want easy times... seems not like eve to me |
Nicholas Goldfinder
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 11:44:15 -
[27] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:lol
you can't kill a booster and you think you are not bad?
something is wrong here... How you suggest killing boosters for solo/small gang players when they can instantly dock or jump gate, or need perfect skill prober with implants to find quickly?
so? |
Nicholas Goldfinder
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 11:45:09 -
[28] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:Are just bad players. It is like complaining about being blobbed. Shall we remove fleets? lol People defending boosters are jsut bad PvPers that need the extra help. See i can also make post with no meaning or backing...
i must learn from you how to back my assertions :D |
Nicholas Goldfinder
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 11:45:55 -
[29] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:Are just bad players. It is like complaining about being blobbed. Shall we remove fleets? lol Blobs come onto the field ... boosters don't
so? |
Nicholas Goldfinder
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 11:48:18 -
[30] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:Off grid boosters are the same principle as 'Skynetting', vastly increased combat performance for negligible risk.
I expect it will be nerfed/removed by CCP eventually just as Skynetting was.
training booster = lots of isks |
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Nicholas Goldfinder
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
16
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Posted - 2015.06.24 11:49:43 -
[31] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Do you get bored of being the 49th highest damage on a killmail or do you find it fulfilling?
do you really need 49 people to kill one booster?
lol
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Nicholas Goldfinder
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 11:51:25 -
[32] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How you suggest killing boosters for solo/small gang players when they can instantly dock or jump gate, or need perfect skill prober with implants to find quickly?
i am sorry your fleet can't kill a booster. try with something else :P
i can't kill a booster either... unless i join some ppl i know who sometimes kill em.. for great joy :D |
Nicholas Goldfinder
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 11:52:30 -
[33] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:I hate the fact that I always need some crappy alt sitting off grid somewhere with links, which I have to drag around with me just because CCP likes subscriptions from alts. fannoying.
there is nothing forcing you to do it... i am not doing it |
Nicholas Goldfinder
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 11:54:53 -
[34] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: As per usual, the main problem is the players choices, not the game as such.
Sadly that player choice is: Dont engage, bring your booster alt or join a fleet. There should be a real option to do solo PvP. I dont have time to find a fleet to roam with every day, that means i do PvE instead since that is something i can do whenever i feel like it without having to bring an army online (suicide PvP is only fun the first 1-2 times, good fights are fun every time)
not everybody has a booster. if u engage someone you must gather intel on it or run the risk of getting screwed...
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
458
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 15:41:53 -
[35] - Quote
Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:...or probe / gate camp a booster with cruiser fleet with logic... not many are required
plus, if u leave proper tackle on both sides, jumping would not prevent death
given the amount of isks that ppl put in creating their links toons (training queues=plex=isk -> ship is not the only risks there) their strength seems to me not op
i don't have boosters
i avoid or kill boosters
or use other's boosters
i just play the game
shall we nerf implants? shall we nerf what?
many seem to want an easier game... then i think they are bad: instead of accepting the challenge or letting others have their game, they want easy times... seems not like eve to me
Implants are a risk. A shiny pod is often multiple times more expensive than links ship and pods face risk from many directions including bubbles (in null/WH), instalockers, and Santo.
Meanwhile OGB is pay to win "make my ship awesome" button that has minimum claim on pilot's attention span, unlike probing which requires actual input and is extremely difficult to do while also multiboxing a frigate in pitched battle. That anyone would suggest there is a balancing equivalent between a mostly afk booster and a prober that must be actively and skillfully managed to find it is pretty laughable.
I'm not even calling for boosters to be removed. For small raiding parties going into enemy territory where the enemy blob has a brick tanked CS hugging station, the T3 links need to be an option.
But putting links on killmails would be a good start. It would disincentivize their use as a hidden trump card for lowsec killboard greening. Put them on mails and add at least a weapons timer to make them gankable in cases where the user isn't totally AFK.
Because the current meta where I have to sacrifice a ship to find out if someone has boosts and then I just blueball them forever after, is not good for anyone.
This game is as its best when fights are won and lost on the basis of player choice in combat, fitting, and fleet maneuvers. Not when victory is determined by who spent more money on alts. Seriously, I came here to shoot spaceships, not play N+1 with subscriptions.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
644
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 17:52:06 -
[36] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:...or probe / gate camp a booster with cruiser fleet with logic... not many are required
plus, if u leave proper tackle on both sides, jumping would not prevent death
given the amount of isks that ppl put in creating their links toons (training queues=plex=isk -> ship is not the only risks there) their strength seems to me not op
i don't have boosters
i avoid or kill boosters
or use other's boosters
i just play the game
shall we nerf implants? shall we nerf what?
many seem to want an easier game... then i think they are bad: instead of accepting the challenge or letting others have their game, they want easy times... seems not like eve to me Implants are a risk. A shiny pod is often multiple times more expensive than links ship and pods face risk from many directions including bubbles (in null/WH), instalockers, and Santo. Meanwhile OGB is pay to win "make my ship awesome" button that has minimum claim on pilot's attention span, unlike probing which requires actual input and is extremely difficult to do while also multiboxing a frigate in pitched battle. That anyone would suggest there is a balancing equivalent between a mostly afk booster and a prober that must be actively and skillfully managed to find it is pretty laughable. I'm not even calling for boosters to be removed. For small raiding parties going into enemy territory where the enemy blob has a brick tanked CS hugging station, the T3 links need to be an option. But putting links on killmails would be a good start. It would disincentivize their use as a hidden trump card for lowsec killboard greening. Put them on mails and add at least a weapons timer to make them gankable in cases where the user isn't totally AFK. Because the current meta where I have to sacrifice a ship to find out if someone has boosts and then I just blueball them forever after, is not good for anyone. This game is as its best when fights are won and lost on the basis of player choice in combat, fitting, and fleet maneuvers. Not when victory is determined by who spent more money on alts. Seriously, I came here to shoot spaceships, not play N+1 with subscriptions.
Then don't fight in a system when you see a booster on d-scan. You don't like boosters, then don't fight people who use them. Once they get blue-balled enough, they'll either put their links up, or go do something else. |
Arla Sarain
522
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 22:51:51 -
[37] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:Varrinox wrote:Boosters are a ******** out of date mechanic that needs addressing far more urgently than anymore ship hull redesign or balance or more overview tweaks.
They along with numerous other ways of using alts to gain a pay to win advantage over a legit solo pilot are a cancer in this game. They have their places on grid in any engagement but in there present state are no more than a joke.
This comes from a person who has done it as well. I used to run with personal booster and multiple accounts in recons/logi. now days I just solo as that encourages more interaction with humans and this is not a Korean grind MMO it's a western player interaction bases MMO (apparently).
Some risk vs reward that CCP always talk about needs to be applied to boosters.
Also add delayed local to all of k-space whilst your at it.
eve is not solo game so cry more. The linking ship is an alt, not another player. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
266
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 02:43:09 -
[38] - Quote
As long as OGB remains the way it is you can expect people to exploit it. It offers a medium through which a single player can turn the tide against superior forces.
Forcing them to be on grid... would change things up. However I'd prefer it if they just got rid of fleet boosting all together. It'd be much simpler to know for a fact we are on an even playing field, instead of having to scout around gathering intelligence on an enemy fleet wondering whether or not they have boosts, how many, etc.
In terms of fleet vs fleet engagements this would not be a problem, but a single player already has enough to worry about without having to worry about that, on top of not being able to field his own boosts, and let's be real here, no player would field an on grid booster to support his solo boat, well, maybe some would, but practically, it would be a horrible idea, for obvious reasons, and thus limiting fleet bonuses to on-grid application would be unfair in that it would be a benefit to large groups, while being a detriment to single players who would otherwise have run their own links. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1461
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 07:27:27 -
[39] - Quote
Removing boosts would massively effect fleet warfare.
Doctrines would trend towards being cheaper and the ratio of logistics and remote assistance modules in fleet would have to increace dramatically.
It wouldnt make much sense flying anything other than alpha fleets since alpha thresholds would be so low even in relatively small fights.
Basically, it would just be a game of instant knockout favouring the side with greater numbers (not accounting for fleet discipline), just as it is to some extent in the large scale fleet fights. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1451
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 09:08:22 -
[40] - Quote
They are clearly not that bothered about them. If they were they could be fixed in a nanosecond.
Sure, forcing the effects on grid may present technical difficulties, however if they simply added a beacon which anyone can warp to once boosts effects are up ... well ... game changer right there.
Think cyno but without the movement lockout.
So you CAN OGB...but is it wise, when you can no longer hide in the shadows?
But they're not going down this route so it is evidently not a huge deal for CCP. |
|
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
686
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 10:00:20 -
[41] - Quote
afkalt wrote:They are clearly not that bothered about them. If they were they could be fixed in a nanosecond.
Sure, forcing the effects on grid may present technical difficulties, however if they simply added a beacon which anyone can warp to once boosts effects are up ... well ... game changer right there.
Think cyno but without the movement lockout.
So you CAN OGB...but is it wise, when you can no longer hide in the shadows?
But they're not going down this route so it is evidently not a huge deal for CCP.
Ok. So I park my booster on station/gate/edge of pos shield. Sure you can warp to my booster so what? Shoot it and I can dock/jump/burn back to shields.
Now you're gonna say "B-but weapons timer!" now that's just moving the goalpost.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1452
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 10:06:43 -
[42] - Quote
Who cares, the thing is off field/offline, which is what you want.
The issue isn't that they're off grid so much as disproportionately hard to find to dislodge. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 15:26:25 -
[43] - Quote
afkalt wrote:They are clearly not that bothered about them. If they were they could be fixed in a nanosecond.
Sure, forcing the effects on grid may present technical difficulties, however if they simply added a beacon which anyone can warp to once boosts effects are up ... well ... game changer right there.
Think cyno but without the movement lockout.
So you CAN OGB...but is it wise, when you can no longer hide in the shadows?
But they're not going down this route so it is evidently not a huge deal for CCP.
And your just gave people a free warpin on the booster that run with its fleet + a **** mess of beacons when goons decide to take their 2-3 full fleets out with BCs all fitted with a link :P |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
461
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 17:37:19 -
[44] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:...or probe / gate camp a booster with cruiser fleet with logic... not many are required
plus, if u leave proper tackle on both sides, jumping would not prevent death
given the amount of isks that ppl put in creating their links toons (training queues=plex=isk -> ship is not the only risks there) their strength seems to me not op
i don't have boosters
i avoid or kill boosters
or use other's boosters
i just play the game
shall we nerf implants? shall we nerf what?
many seem to want an easier game... then i think they are bad: instead of accepting the challenge or letting others have their game, they want easy times... seems not like eve to me Implants are a risk. A shiny pod is often multiple times more expensive than links ship and pods face risk from many directions including bubbles (in null/WH), instalockers, and Santo. Meanwhile OGB is pay to win "make my ship awesome" button that has minimum claim on pilot's attention span, unlike probing which requires actual input and is extremely difficult to do while also multiboxing a frigate in pitched battle. That anyone would suggest there is a balancing equivalent between a mostly afk booster and a prober that must be actively and skillfully managed to find it is pretty laughable. I'm not even calling for boosters to be removed. For small raiding parties going into enemy territory where the enemy blob has a brick tanked CS hugging station, the T3 links need to be an option. But putting links on killmails would be a good start. It would disincentivize their use as a hidden trump card for lowsec killboard greening. Put them on mails and add at least a weapons timer to make them gankable in cases where the user isn't totally AFK. Because the current meta where I have to sacrifice a ship to find out if someone has boosts and then I just blueball them forever after, is not good for anyone. This game is as its best when fights are won and lost on the basis of player choice in combat, fitting, and fleet maneuvers. Not when victory is determined by who spent more money on alts. Seriously, I came here to shoot spaceships, not play N+1 with subscriptions. Then don't fight in a system when you see a booster on d-scan. You don't like boosters, then don't fight people who use them. Once they get blue-balled enough, they'll either put their links up, or go do something else.
I've said multiple times that's basically my approach. But still in many cases the only way to identify a links user is losing a ship to find out that they have 15k scram and abnormal speed in a T1 frigate.
I have learned where most of the link users hang out in my area of lowsec and I generally don't take fights in those systems.
Roaming T3 + faction frig combo is not that common, fortunately.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1456
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 17:40:26 -
[45] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:afkalt wrote:They are clearly not that bothered about them. If they were they could be fixed in a nanosecond.
Sure, forcing the effects on grid may present technical difficulties, however if they simply added a beacon which anyone can warp to once boosts effects are up ... well ... game changer right there.
Think cyno but without the movement lockout.
So you CAN OGB...but is it wise, when you can no longer hide in the shadows?
But they're not going down this route so it is evidently not a huge deal for CCP. And your just gave people a free warpin on the booster that run with its fleet + a **** mess of beacons when goons decide to take their 2-3 full fleets out with BCs all fitted with a link :P
No-one would ever use that as a trap |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 18:53:11 -
[46] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:afkalt wrote:They are clearly not that bothered about them. If they were they could be fixed in a nanosecond.
Sure, forcing the effects on grid may present technical difficulties, however if they simply added a beacon which anyone can warp to once boosts effects are up ... well ... game changer right there.
Think cyno but without the movement lockout.
So you CAN OGB...but is it wise, when you can no longer hide in the shadows?
But they're not going down this route so it is evidently not a huge deal for CCP. And your just gave people a free warpin on the booster that run with its fleet + a **** mess of beacons when goons decide to take their 2-3 full fleets out with BCs all fitted with a link :P No-one would ever use that as a trap
You mean its a trap when you give your enemy a free warpin point for your fleet? How do you decide where to warp when you have 1k diffrent beacons?
Beacon = booster stay away from fleet (to easy to get a perfect warp on it), and at best you dedicate some poor soul to be the OGB. Fixing nothing and breaking boosting for fleets |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1456
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 19:23:40 -
[47] - Quote
Oh, I didn't realise there was no on grid probing any more.
Wow, I had no idea that getting warp in to an enemy fleet today was 'hard'
1k boosters in a system? Don't be ridiculous.
"Oh noes they can find me!!!!"...so don't light the boosts until you're ready. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 21:44:34 -
[48] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Oh, I didn't realise there was no on grid probing any more.
Wow, I had no idea that getting warp in to an enemy fleet today was 'hard'
1k boosters in a system? Don't be ridiculous.
"Oh noes they can find me!!!!"...so don't light the boosts until you're ready.
Its not that its hard, but someone have to do it. Also its getting changed so you need a fleet member in the location to warp there (no fleet warp to scan results)
1k boosters in systems IS something that would happen. You act like goons would not at the very least try BC fleets where all have a single booster module active, testing the server limits is more than enough reason to do it.
Making every active booster a beacon so everyone can warp to it = no OGB (or suicide ogb) and if they stay with the fleet it would be easier to get a warp in than to bounce anywhere in system |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 22:05:14 -
[49] - Quote
Worrying about the potential outcome of a stupid idea is hardly productive.
Give boosters a weapon and suspect timer forcing them to boost from a safe and be vulnerable from a similarly dedicated probing ship (like a t3d). And put them on killmails.
That is pretty much all anyone needs to identify and kill, or at least bring boosters into the general gameplay.
There will still be those that are too lazy to probe things out as they think they game is broken unless a steady flow of inferior ships fly at them one by one throughout the time they are undocked. For everyone else, that would most likely be a welcome and fair change in the boosting meta. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 22:30:45 -
[50] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Worrying about the potential outcome of a stupid idea is hardly productive.
Give boosters a weapon and suspect timer forcing them to boost from a safe and be vulnerable from a similarly dedicated probing ship (like a t3d). And put them on killmails.
That is pretty much all anyone needs to identify and kill, or at least bring boosters into the general gameplay.
There will still be those that are too lazy to probe things out as they think they game is broken unless a steady flow of inferior ships fly at them one by one throughout the time they are undocked. For everyone else, that would most likely be a welcome and fair change in the boosting meta. I don't think putting boosters on killmails would make any sense. On the other hand I don't think killmails make any sense in their current state, either. Still, I am against the idea of putting boosters on killmails.
I would be happy with the weapon and/or suspect timer however. I think that would probably be the optimal solution. |
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1459
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 08:07:48 -
[51] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:afkalt wrote:Oh, I didn't realise there was no on grid probing any more.
Wow, I had no idea that getting warp in to an enemy fleet today was 'hard'
1k boosters in a system? Don't be ridiculous.
"Oh noes they can find me!!!!"...so don't light the boosts until you're ready. Its not that its hard, but someone have to do it. Also its getting changed so you need a fleet member in the location to warp there (no fleet warp to scan results) 1k boosters in systems IS something that would happen. You act like goons would not at the very least try BC fleets where all have a single booster module active, testing the server limits is more than enough reason to do it. Making every active booster a beacon so everyone can warp to it = no OGB (or suicide ogb) and if they stay with the fleet it would be easier to get a warp in than to bounce anywhere in system
And a BC fleet would be decimated in short order (Maybe the rebalance planned for these would change that). It wouldn't be effective, or worth it. For a fleet engagement I doubt it would change much.
Being able to warp to a booster offers interesting possibilities - sit it outside the main fleet but in logi range inside a HIC bubble, for instance. Creative people could have a lot of fun with it.
The whole idea is to kill OGB, without waiting for a recode, that's the point. A nicer alternative is making them easier to probe, but that just craps up a bunch of other things with the limitations. I find it somewhat amusing that people take the stance of "lolprobe it down"...likely fully aware of how hard they are to get a hold of when fit correctly.
Don't forget the same fleet warp changes will make OGB T3s literally uncatchable. Catching a ship going over 1.2km/s with a sensor strength of 149 vs 157 sig (before implants)....good luck when you can't punt fast tackle any more. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 08:38:59 -
[52] - Quote
You mean the idea is to kill OGB without putting any effort in yurself. Spokem like one of these new generaton of mileniel soloers whos sole skill is constatntly whining about links, blobs, implants, OP ships, odd fits and pretty much anything else..
Beacons have to be the single worst idea for OGB out there so dedicating more than one post apologising for such a bad idea is a waste of time. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1459
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 08:41:50 -
[53] - Quote
So tell me how you're going to catch one, EVER once the fleet changes go.
Unless it's shitfit.
I look forward to your brilliance. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 08:48:03 -
[54] - Quote
afkalt wrote:So tell me how you're going to catch one, EVER once the fleet changes go.
Unless it's shitfit.
I look forward to your brilliance.
It doesnt matter, its useless to discuss such horrible ideas. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1459
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 08:48:51 -
[55] - Quote
So you concede they're literally going to be uncatchable. Back to the 100% uncatchable links days.
Such skill. Much wow. |
Lucy Callagan
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Drama Sutra
24
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 08:49:30 -
[56] - Quote
Quote:Don't forget the same fleet warp changes will make OGB T3s literally uncatchable. Catching a ship going over 1.2km/s with a sensor strength of 149 vs 157 sig (before implants)....good luck when you can't punt fast tackle any more. QUOTE
If it's going 1.2k/s it's not gonna have a 157m sig and its gonna cap himself out quickly.
[17:34:53] LucyCallagan > Respectez mon Eliterie je vous prie !
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1459
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 08:56:49 -
[57] - Quote
Lucy Callagan wrote:Quote:Don't forget the same fleet warp changes will make OGB T3s literally uncatchable. Catching a ship going over 1.2km/s with a sensor strength of 149 vs 157 sig (before implants)....good luck when you can't punt fast tackle any more. QUOTE If it's going 1.2k/s it's not gonna have a 157m sig and its gonna cap himself out quickly.
Nope, try again. 100mn AB both fits and it is cap stable at 56% with EVERYTHING running. 1.2km/s is with it's own links active (which they will be, naturally - why would they not be, it IS the booster), sheet is 1km/s without the links up.
That's going to cover a hell of ground from the time you get a probe hit to the time the little covops lands. It can't keep up cloaked to give a warp in and you can't punt a keres/inty/garmur any more and those hulls will not have the strength to land their own probe hit.
Cloak recalibration delay means the covops won't get point either, even then, it would be luck to land one with a heated, linked domination point given the time to the moving target.
Edit: Hell, for extra LOLvalue, you could run snakes instead of halos/sensor implants. I forgot to add his own links for the sig radius, it's actually 116 with them up. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 09:00:42 -
[58] - Quote
afkalt wrote:So you concede they're literally going to be uncatchable. Back to the 100% uncatchable links days.
Such skill. Much wow.
For one, im saying the idea is horrible. So you cant argue with me as though im an advocate for it lol.
For another, just a long point cov ops to get an initial warp, Wait for booster to reach 150km then hit another probe cycle, unloak in warp, point and call dps.
Not to mention the fact a solo booster (4 links), since various changes, is never going to have that ratio of sig to sensor strength. So not only are you arguing with me about an idea that we both seem to disagree with, you are doing so with a lack of aptitude for playing eve, eve mechaics in general and also throwing out some crappy meme to further cement why some people are best left out of the brainstorming threads on the forum.
For fleet boosters, i dont see a whole lot of pushback against them, its really just the trusoloers that constantly whine about the mechanic making their arbitrary choise to fly solo too hard. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1459
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 09:03:31 -
[59] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Not to mention the fact a solo booster (4 links), since various changes, is never going to have that ratio of sig to sensor strength. So not only are you arguing with me about an idea that we both seem to disagree with, you are doing so with a lack of ap[titude for to playing eve, eve mechaics in general and also throwing out some crappy meme to further cement why some people are best left out of the brainstorming threads on the forum.
So this fit is impossible, is it?
[Tengu, Boostgu] Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Gravimetric Backup Array II Gravimetric Backup Array II
Command Processor I Command Processor I Command Processor I 100MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment II Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II Covert Ops Cloaking Device II [empty high slot]
Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I
Tengu Defensive - Warfare Processor Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration Tengu Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Cloaky, nullified, speed, sig radius and cap stability as advertised.
Good luck catching it with a cloaking targeting delay. Are you really that silly? The thing will warp the minute you decloak. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 09:16:42 -
[60] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Not to mention the fact a solo booster (4 links), since various changes, is never going to have that ratio of sig to sensor strength. So not only are you arguing with me about an idea that we both seem to disagree with, you are doing so with a lack of ap[titude for to playing eve, eve mechaics in general and also throwing out some crappy meme to further cement why some people are best left out of the brainstorming threads on the forum. Good luck catching it with a cloaking targeting delay. Are you really that silly? The thing will warp the minute you decloak.
If thats the assumption then no booster is ever going to be caught regardless of any changes. Oddly, they do though so assuming that they will warp as something arrives on grid / decloaks as it lands is another bad assumption to support an argument that you seem to be having with yourself about a horrible idea.
As for the fit, probing mechanics set a bottleneck for the sensor strength:sig ratio much lower than the numbers you actually posted. I believe its 90%. So for this example the effective sensor strength will be ~143.
All boosters, regardless of how they are fit are currently probable with a bonused hull and perfect skills with no implants. |
|
Domino Vyse
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
122
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 09:22:32 -
[61] - Quote
When will you nerds accept the fact that CCP doesn't give a damn? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1459
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 09:24:57 -
[62] - Quote
I am aware of both the cap and that they can be caught. HOWEVER the fleet warp changes mean that punting a properly fast tackle onto them becomes impossible.
So a booster moving at the speeds I've show mean that, unless the pilot is literally dead at their desk, it'll never be caught, ever.
What was challenging today steps into the realms of wholly unreasonable and unrealistic when the fleet warps change. CCP even acknowledged this as a problem with the changes.
CCP Larrikin wrote:Aebe Amraen wrote: 2. My second concern is about a very particular, but rather common, scenario: trying to catch cloaky, nullified, nearly-unscannable off-grid T3 links ships. In some configurations these can perma-AB at over 1km/s, aligned out to another safespot. The current best practice is to get a prober with perfect skills, a bonused ship, and virtue probes and have him warp a squad of fast tackle (T1 frigates/interceptors or specialized tackle bombers) on top of the boosting ship, hoping that one of them will be able to catch him before he reacts and warps away.
Catching these ships is already extremely difficult, and will be nearly impossible under the proposed changes. No bonused scanning ship will be able to tackle them, as they have at a minimum 5s lock delay after decloaking. No unbonused ship will be able to scan them down. In the time it takes for the prober to warp to the target and then have the tackle squad warp to him the 1km/s probing ship will be out of range.
I have interests on both sides of this scenario, having hunted PL off-grid boosters with my perfect scanning alt during the recent Catch wars and with two of my own perfect combat boosting alts. I guess I won't mind having my boosting alts be effectively invulnerable for a while, but it does seem like poor balance.
This is a really good point. Awesome post in general. I don't have an answer for you just yet, but we're working on it.
From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5812875#post5812875 |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 09:28:28 -
[63] - Quote
Domino Vyse wrote:When will you nerds accept the fact that CCP doesn't give a damn?
Wouldnt bother me, i dont mind the mechanics as they are.
But i accept that suspect timers/weapons timers would bring boosts into play for people who are willing to put as much effort into catching them as their owners did in creating them.
Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :) |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 09:41:17 -
[64] - Quote
afkalt wrote: What was challenging today steps into the realms of wholly unreasonable and unrealistic when the fleet warps change. CCP even acknowledged this as a problem with the changes.
Unreasonable to dedicate a ship to tackling another ship that is dedicated to boosting?
[Helios, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Reinforced Bulkheads II Co-Processor II
5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Scan Rangefinding Array II [empty med slot]
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
Small Targeting Systems Stabilizer II Small Targeting Systems Stabilizer II
3.7 seconds recal, will probably take that long to warp from its initial warp in 150km away so align, decloak as you hit warp, land and tackle.
If he warps, he would have warped before or after any change. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1459
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 09:59:40 -
[65] - Quote
The margin for error is now too huge. The best way was slingshotting proper tackle hulls over, that's dead. You'll not get anywhere near them now, too much warning. It's questionable that you'll even be able to land close enough tbh. Maybe with your own links, heat, faction point.
You know it, I know it and CCP knows and acknowledges it. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 10:09:35 -
[66] - Quote
afkalt wrote:The margin for error is now too huge. The best way was slingshotting proper tackle hulls over, that's dead. You'll not get anywhere near them now, too much warning. It's questionable that you'll even be able to land close enough tbh. Maybe with your own links, heat, faction point.
You know it, I know it and CCP knows and acknowledges it.
What are you talking about?
As i have said 3 times.
- Warp to scan result - Wait for booster to reach 150km - Align to booster - Run another cycle on probes (~8 seconds) - De-cloak and warp (3-4 seconds) - Land within 15km of booster with OH sebo and point. - Point, or watch him warp away.
If he didnt see the probes, its likely he wont see the cov ops. If he did see the cov ops, its likely he would have seen the ceptor.
I dont really like the fleet warp changes, but saying boosts are uncatchable is just not true. |
Zappity
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
2276
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 10:16:27 -
[67] - Quote
OGB will go on grid and I will be glad. Off grid boosters are ridiculous from a game play perspective - it is so clearly in opposition to CCP's direction toward inclusive and active play that it will certainly be nerfed.
In the meantime I would love for links to get a weapons timer to reduce the pathetic gate and station hugging.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Domino Vyse
Black Rebel Rifter Club the devil's tattoo
122
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 10:18:38 -
[68] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Domino Vyse wrote:When will you nerds accept the fact that CCP doesn't give a damn? Wouldnt bother me, i dont mind the mechanics as they are. But i accept that suspect timers/weapons timers would bring boosts into play for people who are willing to put as much effort into catching them as their owners did in creating them. Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :)
I fully agree with that.
Its just a shame that CCP are useless. Same goes for the way that they have abandoned FW, which also shares the fact that certain accounts will get unsubbed if they fixed it. |
Lulu Lunette
Custodes Olim United Systems of Aridia
42
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 10:56:30 -
[69] - Quote
What's a booster
@lunettelulu7
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1145
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 14:29:33 -
[70] - Quote
If he's aligned to spot A, you can also warp to your covops at respective range... |
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Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 15:00:48 -
[71] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:[quote=Domino Vyse]Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :) I hope you realize how unreasonable that line of reasoning is.
Killmail hoaring should only be possible when you activate a module on somebody's ship, or damage or affect their ship in some way, for example with a smart bomb.
An argument could be made that a logistics ship should show up on the killmail if the person they were healing dies (for all I know they already do). For a logi to show up on a killmail for which they had no direct interaction would not make any sense. But the idea that a neutral alt who just happens to be in fleet with a person, and just happens to giving his fleet members in the same system warfare bonuses, should show up on killmails that his fleet members get, is simply ridiculous.
I would argue that per each kill that happens in this game, only one player should be on said killmail, or earn a "kill" from it on their killboard, and that is the player who actually got the kill. In other words, get rid of killmail hoaring so that kills actually mean something.
Now THAT would be a meaningful change if we are trying to appease trusoloers. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
476
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 15:03:10 -
[72] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote: I would argue that per each kill that happens in this game, only one player should be on said killmail, or earn a "kill" from it on their killboard, and that is the player who actually got the kill. In other words, get rid of killmail hoaring so that kills actually mean something.
Now THAT would be a meaningful change if we are trying to appease trusoloers.
Nah, that would just make everyone look like a "trusoloer". |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 15:30:48 -
[73] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:[quote=Domino Vyse]Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :) I hope you realize how unreasonable that line of reasoning is. Killmail hoaring should only be possible when you activate a module on somebody's ship, or damage or affect their ship in some way, for example with a smart bomb. An argument could be made that a logistics ship should show up on the killmail if the person they were healing dies (for all I know they already do). For a logi to show up on a killmail for which they had no direct interaction would not make any sense. But the idea that a neutral alt who just happens to be in fleet with a person, and just happens to giving his fleet members in the same system warfare bonuses, should show up on killmails that his fleet members get, is simply ridiculous. I would argue that per each kill that happens in this game, only one player should be on said killmail, or earn a "kill" from it on their killboard, and that is the player who actually got the kill. In other words, get rid of killmail hoaring so that kills actually mean something. Now THAT would be a meaningful change if we are trying to appease trusoloers.
So your saying logistics dont help with the fights or that boosters dont help the fleet? Logistics and boosters change the outcome of an equal fight, they dont to much for blobbers tho |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 15:30:53 -
[74] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:[quote=Domino Vyse]Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :) I hope you realize how unreasonable that line of reasoning is. Killmail hoaring should only be possible when you activate a module on somebody's ship, or damage or affect their ship in some way, for example with a smart bomb. An argument could be made that a logistics ship should show up on the killmail if the person they were healing dies (for all I know they already do). For a logi to show up on a killmail for which they had no direct interaction would not make any sense. But the idea that a neutral alt who just happens to be in fleet with a person, and just happens to giving his fleet members in the same system warfare bonuses, should show up on killmails that his fleet members get, is simply ridiculous. I would argue that per each kill that happens in this game, only one player should be on said killmail, or earn a "kill" from it on their killboard, and that is the player who actually got the kill. In other words, get rid of killmail hoaring so that kills actually mean something. Now THAT would be a meaningful change if we are trying to appease trusoloers.
Of all the batty ideas out there regarding boosters, bringing them onto mails is one of the sanest. If mails are supposed to be an honest representation of what happened then its very fair to expect boosters to be there given their contribution. As for killmail whoring, ill say yet again, any contribution, not matter how minor is useful. It isnt misrepresented, its very clear to see at a glance who were the main participants in an engagement.
If it were possible (which is probably isnt), id even go s far as to put specialist roles on the BR too. Perhaps someones roll is just to stay out of range and jam a loki to minimise the hostile fleets ability to apply damage. Somehow that griffin should be recorded even if that loki did not die since its role is very important.
There is a mechanic for POS killmails that already does something like this. If you are on the POS km, you are automatically registered on the modules km even if you didnt shoot them (assuming they die). If fleet members could be grouped and treated the same way a cluster of pos mouiles and tower are, then batle reports would be a better indication of events. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
646
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 15:48:35 -
[75] - Quote
Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system. |
Domino Vyse
Black Rebel Rifter Club the devil's tattoo
124
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 16:33:36 -
[76] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system.
Crosi uses links btw. He supports links on killmails. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
646
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 16:50:44 -
[77] - Quote
Domino Vyse wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system. Crosi uses links btw. He supports links on killmails.
I know, and he has no issues with bringing them onto killmails. I'm referring to those who do use links, but don't want them on killmails. |
Domino Vyse
Black Rebel Rifter Club the devil's tattoo
125
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 19:09:09 -
[78] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Domino Vyse wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system. Crosi uses links btw. He supports links on killmails. I know, and he has no issues with bringing them onto killmails. I'm referring to those who do use links, but don't want them on killmails.
And what are you saying about them? |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1145
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 19:45:23 -
[79] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system.
Whether the killmail shows my booster or not, I don't care. Not even uploading kills to begin with, boosters on killmails is just asking for lame excuses to show to your friends to reason why you lost an engagement.
It's like whining about 1v(1+Falcon). We do it, love to do it and deep down we know we suck at scouting as shown by evidence A (the killmail). |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
646
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 20:47:19 -
[80] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system. Whether the killmail shows my booster or not, I don't care. Not even uploading kills to begin with, boosters on killmails is just asking for lame excuses to show to your friends to reason why you lost an engagement. It's like whining about 1v(1+Falcon). We do it, love to do it and deep down we know we suck at scouting as shown by evidence A (the killmail).
Except the Falcon shows up on the killmail. A boosting alt does not, even though it is providing increases to your ship's performance by providing better armor resists, shield resists, longer points, etc. Thereby making a 1v1 matchup very lopsided, even though the 2 involved have same skills.
So when the one person loses and sees a killmail, he doesn't know why he lost; but if the killmail showed the OGB, then he would know exactly why and would be better prepared in future engagements against that opponent. |
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Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:33:24 -
[81] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
So your saying logistics dont help with the fights or that boosters dont help the fleet? Logistics and boosters change the outcome of an equal fight, they dont to much for blobbers tho
They don't directly affect the ships that their fleet members fight against, no. So I don't see how anyone can claim they belong on killmails of ships which they did not directly affect. They passively help their fleet members. It would make more sense to put them on the lossmails of the fleet members they are boosting, but to put them on killmails of ships which they had no direct effect on is silly. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:39:03 -
[82] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:
So your saying logistics dont help with the fights or that boosters dont help the fleet? Logistics and boosters change the outcome of an equal fight, they dont to much for blobbers tho
They don't directly affect the ships that their fleet members fight against, no. So I don't see how anyone can claim they belong on killmails of ships which they did not directly affect. They passively help their fleet members. It would make more sense to put them on the lossmails of the fleet members they are boosting, but to put them on killmails of ships which they had no direct effect on is silly.
Dont think even a remotely a fair way to look at it.
Its called a battle report, not a loss report. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:41:34 -
[83] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:[quote=Ares Desideratus]As for killmail whoring, ill say yet again, any contribution, not matter how minor is useful. It isnt misrepresented, its very clear to see at a glance who were the main participants in an engagement.
If it were possible (which is probably isnt), id even go s far as to put specialist roles on the BR too. Perhaps someones roll is just to stay out of range and jam a loki to minimise the hostile fleets ability to apply damage. Somehow that griffin should be recorded even if that loki did not die since its role is very important. They are misrepresented, and here's why,
A kill is a kill. But the way killmails work currently, you take one kill, and you have to multiply that kill by the amount of people who whor'ed on it, so that every single killmailwhore gets a "kill", while in reality there was only one kill.
So you take a single kill. And let's say 50 guys contributed to it. That automatically gets turned into 50 separate kills, according to the killboards, because every single one of those players who contributed to the kill (but didn't actually get the kill), technically gets the kill in terms of the killboard. It's actually quite sickening.
I won't argue that "any contribution, no matter how minor is useful." No rational player will deny this. But this absolutely does not mean that every single guy who whor's on a killmail should get it registered as a "kill" for his killboard statistics.
There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:42:47 -
[84] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote: A kill is a kill. But the way killmails work currently, you take one kill, and you have to multiply that kill by the amount of people who whor'ed on it, so that every single killmailwhore gets a "kill", while in reality there was only one kill.
That would only be misrepresenting, if there was a single player out there that wasnt aware of that fact.
it gets recorded as a single kill on 50 people board, but its just a single kill and no one is under any other impression. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:43:24 -
[85] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Dont think even a remotely a fair way to look at it.
Its called a battle report, not a loss report.
So we should put spy alts, , covert ops alts and anything else that may have a minor passive effect on a battle onto killmails too, then, right? |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:45:11 -
[86] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Dont think even a remotely a fair way to look at it.
Its called a battle report, not a loss report.
So we should put spy alts, , covert ops alts and anything else that may have a minor passive effect on a battle onto killmails too, then, right?
Within reason, why not? |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:45:26 -
[87] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: A kill is a kill. But the way killmails work currently, you take one kill, and you have to multiply that kill by the amount of people who whor'ed on it, so that every single killmailwhore gets a "kill", while in reality there was only one kill.
That would only be misrepresenting, if there was a single player out there that wasnt aware of that fact. No, it is misrepresenting, because that's the way the killboards view it. If all the players are aware of the fact then there is no reason to keep it the way it is. It's simply a tool to build up blob-F1-players's killboard statistics. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:48:20 -
[88] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: A kill is a kill. But the way killmails work currently, you take one kill, and you have to multiply that kill by the amount of people who whor'ed on it, so that every single killmailwhore gets a "kill", while in reality there was only one kill.
That would only be misrepresenting, if there was a single player out there that wasnt aware of that fact. No, it is misrepresenting, because that's the way the killboards view it. If all the players are aware of the fact then there is no reason to keep it the way it is. It's simply a tool to build up blob-F1-players's killboard statistics.
But there is no reason to change it. Everyone is already aware that some kills are solo and some are not. All the details are on the mail.
If you could clarify what problem you are trying to fix i could start understanding you.
As i undestand it, you want every kill to look like a solo fight?
How is it possible that someone with an IQ of more than 65 could thing that is an improvement over what we have now? |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
205
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:49:20 -
[89] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:
So your saying logistics dont help with the fights or that boosters dont help the fleet? Logistics and boosters change the outcome of an equal fight, they dont to much for blobbers tho
They don't directly affect the ships that their fleet members fight against, no. So I don't see how anyone can claim they belong on killmails of ships which they did not directly affect. They passively help their fleet members. It would make more sense to put them on the lossmails of the fleet members they are boosting, but to put them on killmails of ships which they had no direct effect on is silly.
I think the idea is to put icon's of the links on those handing out blows on the killmail.
There is a lot they could do with enhancing killmail data, depending on how it would affect performance.
Under the assumption that the killmail can theoretically be a delayed process run on a report from the game logs, it should be possible to add a number of items:
- like a timestamp for each pilot's first agression
- -ve HP damage for Logi that tried to save the target (wouldn't it be great to analyse Logi data?),
- all ewar types used on the targets loss
- timestamp for the first warp disrupt/scram/interdiction
- booster affects (drugs)
- gang link markers
I'm no engineer so I cannot comment on the practical stuff but for enhancing gameplay analysis and bragging rights, a lot could be added to enhance kill mail and battle report data.
Current km's and killboards do not a story tell, not even close.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:50:58 -
[90] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Dont think even a remotely a fair way to look at it.
Its called a battle report, not a loss report.
So we should put spy alts, , covert ops alts and anything else that may have a minor passive effect on a battle onto killmails too, then, right? Within reason, why not? Because it is not within reason.
You might as well put the miners and industrialists who built your weapons onto the killmail, too, then.
No, I think that what's within reason, is that anyone who directly affects a ship with a module, should be put on the killmail. You can't start putting people on killmails who had literally no participation in the battle, and that includes the fleet booster. He's not in the battle, and he doesn't have to be anywhere near it. He's riding off to the sun smoking a cigar. |
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:55:05 -
[91] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Dont think even a remotely a fair way to look at it.
Its called a battle report, not a loss report.
So we should put spy alts, , covert ops alts and anything else that may have a minor passive effect on a battle onto killmails too, then, right? Within reason, why not? Because it is not within reason. You might as well put the miners and industrialists who built your weapons onto the killmail, too, then. No, I think that what's within reason, is that anyone who directly affects a ship with a module, should be put on the killmail. You can't start putting people on killmails who had literally no participation in the battle, and that includes the fleet booster. He's not in the battle, and he doesn't have to be anywhere near it. He's riding off to the sun smoking a cigar.
Thats some crazy slippery slope fallacy there mate.
If you are performing a direct role in a fight (which includes boosters and logistics), then its a fair consideration to mention them on killmails. I understand you have a stupid idea of what killboards should be, i just dont understand your motivation. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:58:21 -
[92] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: A kill is a kill. But the way killmails work currently, you take one kill, and you have to multiply that kill by the amount of people who whor'ed on it, so that every single killmailwhore gets a "kill", while in reality there was only one kill.
That would only be misrepresenting, if there was a single player out there that wasnt aware of that fact. No, it is misrepresenting, because that's the way the killboards view it. If all the players are aware of the fact then there is no reason to keep it the way it is. It's simply a tool to build up blob-F1-players's killboard statistics. But there is no reason to change it. Everyone is already aware that some kills are solo and some are not. All the details are on the mail. If you could clarify what problem you are trying to fix i could start understanding you. As i undestand it, you want every kill to look like a solo fight? The problem is players are rewarded with kills that they didn't get. You shouldn't be acknowledged as having destroyed a ship if you merely contributed to the destruction of the ship.
I don't want every kill to look like a solo fight. As I said, you can acknowledge player participation on the kill and contribution on the kill without stating on their killboard that they were the ones who got the kill.
You're right there's no reason to fix it. There's no reason to do anything actually. Might as well just kill ourselves then. Oh wait there's no reason to do that either. Oh well.
Oh wait, there is a reason. Yeah, the killboards don't make sense. We should probably try fixing things that don't make sense. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
205
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:58:57 -
[93] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such.
However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted.
In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story.
One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill).
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
686
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:00:20 -
[94] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Dont think even a remotely a fair way to look at it.
Its called a battle report, not a loss report.
So we should put spy alts, , covert ops alts and anything else that may have a minor passive effect on a battle onto killmails too, then, right? Within reason, why not? Because it is not within reason. You might as well put the miners and industrialists who built your weapons onto the killmail, too, then. No, I think that what's within reason, is that anyone who directly affects a ship with a module, should be put on the killmail. You can't start putting people on killmails who had literally no participation in the battle, and that includes the fleet booster. He's not in the battle, and he doesn't have to be anywhere near it. He's riding off to the sun smoking a cigar. Thats some crazy slippery slope fallacy there mate. If you are performing a direct role in a fight (which includes boosters and logistics), then its a fair consideration to mention them on killmails. I understand you have a stupid idea of what killboards should be, i just dont understand your motivation.
It's just a case of sour grapes. Or just plain butthurt that their E-Bushido was not honoured. As much as I hate your linked garmur links are fine atm. It was fun making special snowflake fits trying to catch you.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:03:31 -
[95] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such. However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted. In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story. One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill). You can tell the story without lying about it, though. The killboards state that Random Player got a kill while in the actual game all he did was tracking disrupt the target for two seconds while somebody else got the kill. To say that the player who tracking disrupted him for two seconds got the kill is an outright lie, but that's what the killboards say, all of the time.
You can still show who contributed to the kill. Just don't give them a "kill" on their statistics that they didn't get. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:07:22 -
[96] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such. However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted. In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story. One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill). You can tell the story without lying about it, though. The killboards state that Random Player got a kill while in the actual game all he did was tracking disrupt the target for two seconds while somebody else got the kill. To say that the player who tracking disrupted him for two seconds got the kill is an outright lie, but that's what the killboards say, all of the time. You can still show who contributed to the kill. Just don't give them a "kill" on their statistics that they didn't get.
removing information from killmails doesnt help tell a wider story, by definition.
Only adding information does.
No one that has any experience in EVE is currently being mislead by killboard statistics and what they represent.
Your true motivations here are clearly hidden because what you have said has zero consistency. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:12:29 -
[97] - Quote
You don't have to remove any of the information from the killmail. I never once said that.
What you can do is give players a "kill" on their killboard when they were the one who in fact got the kill. But not when they whored on the kill with some electronic module. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
205
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Posted - 2015.06.27 00:20:36 -
[98] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such. However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted. In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story. One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill). You can tell the story without lying about it, though. The killboards state that Random Player got a kill while in the actual game all he did was tracking disrupt the target for two seconds while somebody else got the kill. To say that the player who tracking disrupted him for two seconds got the kill is an outright lie, but that's what the killboards say, all of the time. You can still show who contributed to the kill. Just don't give them a "kill" on their statistics that they didn't get. removing information from killmails doesnt help tell a wider story, by definition. Only adding information does. No one that has any experience in EVE is currently being mislead by killboard statistics and what they represent. Your true motivations here are clearly hidden because what you have said has zero consistency.
It is the story that is important.
If I can browse a killboard that has access to timestamps for actions and lists of effects on ships involved (not just the target) it gives me a quick overview on the story of the fight.
Why do you think so many people record and show their PvP footage - and even this is limited from a single POV?
Once again. Data on a killboard is down to the Killboard developer, not CCP.
However, I am all in favour of CCP improving killmail data that is API passed on. The current kill data feels like it's from the 2nd generation kill stats from 2006 or so.
Sometimes a single jam cycle from a Griffin is the only reason the only ship holding point was able to survive and kill the target. Just another example of lost story by using a filter (censor) on certain attributes.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
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Posted - 2015.06.27 00:29:00 -
[99] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such. However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted. In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story. One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill). You can tell the story without lying about it, though. The killboards state that Random Player got a kill while in the actual game all he did was tracking disrupt the target for two seconds while somebody else got the kill. To say that the player who tracking disrupted him for two seconds got the kill is an outright lie, but that's what the killboards say, all of the time. You can still show who contributed to the kill. Just don't give them a "kill" on their statistics that they didn't get. removing information from killmails doesnt help tell a wider story, by definition. Only adding information does. No one that has any experience in EVE is currently being mislead by killboard statistics and what they represent. Your true motivations here are clearly hidden because what you have said has zero consistency. It is the story that is important. If I can browse a killboard that has access to timestamps for actions and lists of effects on ships involved (not just the target) it gives me a quick overview on the story of the fight. Why do you think so many people record and show their PvP footage - and even this is limited from a single POV? Once again. Data on a killboard is down to the Killboard developer, not CCP. However, I am all in favour of CCP improving killmail data that is API passed on. The current kill data feels like it's from the 2nd generation kill stats from 2006 or so. Sometimes a single jam cycle from a Griffin is the only reason the only ship holding point was able to survive and kill the target. Just another example of lost story by using a filter (censor) on certain attributes.
Why are you replying to me? i already gave that exact example of how killboards could be imporved.
I think ares wants the total kills to represent final blows rather than kills participated in. If thats all then whatver. Seems like something someone who already puts too much credence into killboards would worry about. Also seems like a lot of fleet roles would never get a final blow so kill totals would only really represent those who only fly dps who might never get a final blow should other roles not be fulfilled. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:37:08 -
[100] - Quote
I apologize for my unintelligible posts.
But yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting. Killboards shouldn't give players kills for things they did not kill. |
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
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Posted - 2015.06.27 00:40:54 -
[101] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:I apologize for my unintelligible posts.
But yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting. Killboards shouldn't give players kills for things they did not kill.
You realise that final blows are more about alpha and timing than skill or deserving?
Ive seen more than a couple of archon kills with a t1 frigate or logistics as final blow.
So you have yet to explain why this notion is more optimal, specially when there is literally no one that thinks ive solod 14,000 kills when they look at my killboard. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:50:27 -
[102] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:I apologize for my unintelligible posts.
But yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting. Killboards shouldn't give players kills for things they did not kill. You realise that final blows are more about alpha and timing than skill or deserving? Ive seen more than a couple of archon kills with a t1 frigate or logistics as final blow. So you have yet to explain why this notion is more optimal, specially when there is literally no one that thinks ive solod 14,000 kills when they look at my killboard. Yeah. I don't think it really matters. I think the truth is more important. Whoever gets the kill in the game should get the "kill" on the killboard.
But as Master Sergeant Macrobert pointed out, data on a killboard is down to killboard developer and not CCP, which I didn't really even consider before I started posting about this.
It doesn't change my view. But it makes me realize the people who run the killboards simply don't care and it will most likely never change; they will continue to lie to support the blob.
By the way, no one thinks you've soloed 14,000 kills when they look at your killboard. The problem is that is exactly what the killboard states, and it is a lie. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:59:31 -
[103] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:I apologize for my unintelligible posts.
But yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting. Killboards shouldn't give players kills for things they did not kill. You realise that final blows are more about alpha and timing than skill or deserving? Ive seen more than a couple of archon kills with a t1 frigate or logistics as final blow. So you have yet to explain why this notion is more optimal, specially when there is literally no one that thinks ive solod 14,000 kills when they look at my killboard. Yeah. I don't think it really matters. I think the truth is more important. Whoever gets the kill in the game should get the "kill" on the killboard. But as Master Sergeant Macrobert pointed out, data on a killboard is down to killboard developer and not CCP, which I didn't really even consider before I started posting about this. It doesn't change my view. But it makes me realize the people who run the killboards simply don't care and it will most likely never change; they will continue to lie to support the blob. By the way, no one thinks you've soloed 14,000 kills when they look at your killboard. The problem is that is exactly what the killboard states, and it is a lie.
Not in the slightest.
The killboard states that ive been on 14000 kills. Thats the truth, and what everyone takes away from it.
There has to be some sort of deception for a lie to exist. Since there is not, you are once again using incorrect terminology. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 01:07:54 -
[104] - Quote
Except it doesn't state that.
Let's have some examples.
Zkillboard states that you have destroyed 14,428 ships. Which is a lie.
Battleclinic states that you have 13,977 kills.
The only logical conclusion a person can come to when they read that you have 13,977 kills, is that you killed 13,977 ships.
Of course, we know better. We know the game is rigged. But that doesn't make it anything other than a lie. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 01:39:17 -
[105] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Except it doesn't state that.
Let's have some examples.
Zkillboard states that you have destroyed 14,428 ships. Which is a lie.
Battleclinic states that you have 13,977 kills.
The only logical conclusion a person can come to when they read that you have 13,977 kills, is that you killed 13,977 ships.
Of course, we know better. We know the game is rigged. But that doesn't make it anything other than a lie.
This has to be the stupidest thing i have ever read on the eve forum.
You are so certain you are making a critical point. But im not sure anyone knows what it is. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 01:47:43 -
[106] - Quote
Well, how about go suck a bag of dicks then. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 03:04:34 -
[107] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Well, how about go suck a bag of dicks then.
Thats what i thought, sorry that under these proposals your secret high sec links would be exposed. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 04:43:59 -
[108] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Well, how about go suck a bag of dicks then. Thats what i thought, sorry that under these proposals your secret high sec links would be exposed. I'm not even against the suspect / weapons timer you |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 14:30:09 -
[109] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Well, how about go suck a bag of dicks then. Thats what i thought, sorry that under these proposals your secret high sec links would be exposed. I'm not even against the suspect / weapons timer
No, you are just irrationally against support ships showing up on kills even though they can play a pivotal role. |
Mizhir
Matari Exodus The Camel Empire
74451
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 17:42:02 -
[110] - Quote
This thread is cancer.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
6012
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Posted - 2015.06.28 03:47:02 -
[111] - Quote
Removed a post, then looked at the rest of the thread.
Quote:Forum rules3. Ranting is prohibited.A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. 23. Post constructively.Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.
Popped a booster, locked thread.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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