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Ceres Cherin	Posted - 2006.11.25 06:35:00 - [1] Ever see those Hulks, Covetors and so on cruising through your high sec system of choice, removing every last rock from space? All of them are in NPC corps which brings me to this point... Why not just kick anyone out of the newbie corp after a month or two, or force them into a corp called 'unemployed' or something that's free for killing, or at least can be wardec'ed? This would limit the shelf-life of a barge macro seller to a month, before anyone in any self-respecting corp wardecs 'em and starts blowing those things up for fun and profit. Sure, it may harm some innocenly unemployed people, but with the amount of easy-to-enter corps around... why not just join one of those instead? Prevent people from joining NPC corps after a month, and blam. Macroers become easilly identifiable and fair game. As no real corp will hire obvious macro-mining ISKsellers, and any corp composed of these clowns will be wiped out hard and fast. Like EVE's greatest strength, the market and players take care of the problem themselves using their precious guns and missiles. :) Comments? Not perfect, but it'd offer a fun alternative to ratting.
Samirol Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.25 06:40:00 - [2] Edited by: Samirol on 25/11/2006 06:40:42 no....please no.... so shortsighted and so ignorant edit: wait a sec, only if they can shoot everyone in eve as well
Sessho Seki	Posted - 2006.11.25 08:21:00 - [3] the problem with this is perfectly innocent players that are very casual players (perhaps log on once or twice a week, mostly to change skills). Those people may well want nothing to do with player-corps, particularly if they aren't online enough to really make any acquaintances that last. then after 2 months, they are possibly booted out into the cold war, unbeknownst to them, and the "unemployed" corp they are lumped into has a virtually never ending war-dec on their shoulders. I’m not wild about the idea of innocent people who have nothing to do with any inappropriate play, but would be punished far more harshly than any cheater/macroer would. You can’t exactly put a sign up that says “easy targets to be had after their 2 month maximum date passes, but no griefers honor system” and expect good things to come of it. One thing that CCP is doing which may help a little: Revelations patch notes Quote: It is no longer possible to log into a trial account if there is already an active client running on the same computer (subscription or other trial). While currently, this only applies to trial accounts, it could possibly be extended to all accounts (as in no more multi-accounts operation on one PC), which of course would put legitimate players in an uproar, but it would also put a considerable damper on macroers as well. (Foreign isk farmers however would be all but unaffected) I wouldn’t be for such a thing, as it would also hurt more legitimate players than crooks, but it’s possible.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.25 09:03:00 - [4] I think that certain skills should not be trainable within an NPC corp. This way, a person can be new for as long as they like. But they're not hitting easy-pay street until some risk is thrown in. Honestly, who war decs a 1 man corp? Almost nobody. That 1 person might just log, or hell, switch corps. There is no reason that a mining barge owner cannot afford to make their own corp or join another one. If its really a threat, have a scaleable war dec cost. Calculate cost based on wallet size of each corp & number of members in each corp. This way you couldnt have an entire alliance declaring war on a 1 man corp for the same price as declaring war on another alliance. ------------------------------------- Since entering 0.0 I've noticed my wallet slowly crawl towards 0.00. Coincidence? I think not.
Peter Armstrong Caldari 5punkorp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.25 09:12:00 - [5] Edited by: Peter Armstrong on 25/11/2006 09:12:36 Originally by: Vrizuh I think that certain skills should not be trainable within an NPC corp. This way, a person can be new for as long as they like. i agree!
The Enslaver Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.25 09:44:00 - [6] Restrict ship types in NPC corps to T1 ships only, with restrictions on any capital ships, battleships and covetors. Basically, so you can't use them when in a newb corp. Or bring in a system to war dec individuals with a 1 hour warning instead of 24 hour warning, with a limit of a max of 20 declarations or something. -------- It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Emeline Cabernet Amarr KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.25 09:48:00 - [7] what about.. 1 month max in noob corp, then players are transfered/moved/upgraded to a new npc corp which can be dec'd?
Cheese999 Minmatar Spitefully Targeting Foolishly Underskilled The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.25 10:51:00 - [8] NPC corps are for newbies. Newbies don't fly mining barges (all those 6 month old carebears in NPC corps willing to argue the point please take a long hard look in the mirror then get a life. Thank you). Why the hell would a member of a NPC corp need to fly a mining barge then? Therefore do not allow a member of a NPC corp to fly a mining barge. I don't care if they train it. ----- There is no Spoon
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.25 11:07:00 - [9] Eve economic is not badly affected by macro miners. It just means us players need to enjoy low-sec more. ----------- Management and Leadership
Raquel Smith Caldari Ferengi Commerce Authority	Posted - 2006.11.25 11:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Ceres Cherin Comments? Not perfect, but it'd offer a fun alternative to ratting. Yeah, you're an idiot. On the troll-meter you score a 3 of 10 since trolling on this topic has been done already.
Orvas Dren Gallente The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.25 11:37:00 - [11] If you want to remove the macro-miners from anything .7 or lower... its quite simple. Remote Armor/Shield boost the rats. :) EVE-Mail me for custom signature work. Price Negotiable
Peter Stuyvesant Amarr	Posted - 2006.11.25 11:41:00 - [12] Originally by: Raquel Smith Yeah, you're an idiot. Originally by: Forum Rules Personal attacks are prohibited.
Elliot Reid Gallente Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.25 11:42:00 - [13] Originally by: Vrizuh I think that certain skills should not be trainable within an NPC corp. An excellent idea and if you train them in a non starter corp then if you revert back you shouldn't be able to use the skills even though you still have them trained.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.25 11:59:00 - [14] How to fix: You cannot fly Mining Barges in an NPC corp. You cannot fly Battleships in an NPC corp. You cannot fly Industrials in an NPC corp. You CERTAINLY cannot fly Freighters in an NPC corp (nothing to do with macros, just stopping those asses who trade in a freighter in an NPC corp and are pretty much completely untouchable) This isn't "you can't train the skills", because people would just train them in a corp and then leave. This is "you cannot fly at all". Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Sonos SAGD Minmatar Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.25 12:08:00 - [15] Edited by: Sonos SAGD on 25/11/2006 12:15:37 Edited by: Sonos SAGD on 25/11/2006 12:14:54 so what happens if you are in a .01 system out in the boonies and you get kicked from your corp cause the hate you. all you have there is a battle ship no ships are on the market in station since low sec markets are dead. you cant undock since you are in a npc corp. you cant buy anything that isn't there. since its low sec there are no other corps in that office since its a pirate system/sucks/out of the way how do you get home? you you just start from scratch? Originally by: Verus Potestas Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy your sig says you are in a npc right now, so are you not flying any battleships or anyother ships you have listed right now
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.25 12:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Sonos SAGD Edited by: Sonos SAGD on 25/11/2006 12:15:37 Edited by: Sonos SAGD on 25/11/2006 12:14:54 so what happens if you are in a .01 system out in the boonies and you get kicked from your corp cause the hate you. all you have there is a battle ship no ships are on the market in station since low sec markets are dead. you cant undock since you are in a npc corp. you cant buy anything that isn't there. since its low sec there are no other corps in that office since its a pirate system/sucks/out of the way how do you get home? you you just start from scratch? Give everyone corporation management lvl 1 for free. Then they can make a corp of their own. Oh, and making the corp shouldn't cost anything, it should simply cost 1.5m per month to keep it alive instead. If not paid, you all default back to the declarable npc corp. Old blog
Hennry Fromer Gallente radiated space gerbils	Posted - 2006.11.26 19:17:00 - [17] Originally by: Sonos SAGD Edited by: Sonos SAGD on 25/11/2006 12:15:37 Edited by: Sonos SAGD on 25/11/2006 12:14:54 so what happens if you are in a .01 system out in the boonies and you get kicked from your corp cause the hate you. all you have there is a battle ship no ships are on the market in station since low sec markets are dead. you cant undock since you are in a npc corp. you cant buy anything that isn't there. since its low sec there are no other corps in that office since its a pirate system/sucks/out of the way how do you get home? you you just start from scratch? Originally by: Verus Potestas I would guess a stuck pettition since that is already there and would seem to apply to that situation. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy your sig says you are in a npc right now, so are you not flying any battleships or anyother ships you have listed right now
bunghole1	Posted - 2006.11.26 20:09:00 - [18] Everyone appears to be making the wild assumption that CCP is interested in nerfing Macro-Mining and foreign ISK sellers... It's bad, it's just getting worse, if they wanted them dealt with they would do it already. Therefore they either: don't know. dont care. think its fine.
Allen Deckard Gallente WTB Supplies	Posted - 2006.11.26 20:10:00 - [19] ahh yes another lets change the game play of everyone so that we can get rid of someone who is breaking the eula. How bout this for a fix. Ban the macro miners. Hmm kinda novel idea I know, kinda crazy and all seeing as it doesn't involve everyone else in the game. Hmm doesn't even change the work devs are working on to program. In fact I cant see to awful many macro miners using hulks the amount of training needed is a lot to loose if caught. Believe what you might be seeing is a hulk fitted with 2 partial hull conversions with gives cargo of 12000m3 giving most miners 3 to 4 cycles at 3 min per cycle your talking 12min before your going to see ANYTHING happen with the player.
Sachi Mai	Posted - 2006.11.27 01:47:00 - [20] Not very bright. Have you considered the majority of people want to be in a NPC corp. That they don't want to play the game "your" way. Are you 100% sure everyone with a mining barge in a NPC uses a macro to mine? Or sells Isk? Some words for you "tar" and "brush". Some other words for you, don't draw attention to your obvious lack of problem solving skills or common sense.
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.27 01:58:00 - [21] Originally by: Sachi Mai Not very bright. Have you considered the majority of people want to be in a NPC corp. That they don't want to play the game "your" way. Are you 100% sure everyone with a mining barge in a NPC uses a macro to mine? Or sells Isk? Some words for you "tar" and "brush". Some other words for you, don't draw attention to your obvious lack of problem solving skills or common sense. What prey-tell is 'our' way? And here is a couple direct questions I'd like to see you try and answer. In a world in which much of the game play is based on the principal of risk vs reward, what is wrong with imposing a small risk on players? In eve, why should we allow a player to have virtually no risk, and at the same time, have access to a huge reward (IE frieghter runs in empire) And, other then the fact that its currently the status quo, do you have any arguement what so ever in favour of allowing charactors to remain in NPC corps, with out restrictions?
Bawls Deep	Posted - 2006.11.27 02:01:00 - [22] Originally by: Sessho Seki Quote: It is no longer possible to log into a trial account if there is already an active client running on the same computer (subscription or other trial). While currently, this only applies to trial accounts, it could possibly be extended to all accounts (as in no more multi-accounts operation on one PC), which of course would put legitimate players in an uproar, but it would also put a considerable damper on macroers as well. (Foreign isk farmers however would be all but unaffected) I wouldnÆt be for such a thing, as it would also hurt more legitimate players than crooks, but itÆs possible. Not much of a business man are you? CCP would never limit us to one account per computer unless they started making CCP computers. My guess is that doing that would cut down their subscriptions by more than half.
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.11.27 02:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Bawls Deep Originally by: Sessho Seki Quote: It is no longer possible to log into a trial account if there is already an active client running on the same computer (subscription or other trial). While currently, this only applies to trial accounts, it could possibly be extended to all accounts (as in no more multi-accounts operation on one PC), which of course would put legitimate players in an uproar, but it would also put a considerable damper on macroers as well. (Foreign isk farmers however would be all but unaffected) I wouldnÆt be for such a thing, as it would also hurt more legitimate players than crooks, but itÆs possible. Not much of a business man are you? CCP would never limit us to one account per computer unless they started making CCP computers. My guess is that doing that would cut down their subscriptions by more than half. Sorry, alt post. <--- Main ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.27 02:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Sachi Mai Not very bright. Have you considered the majority of people want to be in a NPC corp. That they don't want to play the game "your" way. Are you 100% sure everyone with a mining barge in a NPC uses a macro to mine? Or sells Isk? Some words for you "tar" and "brush". Some other words for you, don't draw attention to your obvious lack of problem solving skills or common sense. It isnt just about macro mining. Its about a cost/benefit risk/reward system. A BoB member posted a very good critic further up about what would happen should you be booted in low sec. However that just ties into the larger discussion. Why is a NPC corp person in low sec? I do not support a time based booting from npc corp, nor a sp based. However there must be limits as to the profits a person can achieve whilst completly un-deccable. As an example of non-macro related reasons for altering the rule. Say that corp A starts smashing corp B in low sec. Corp B may be having trouble raising revenue from mining operations in their territory due to A's attacks. Corp B however has Freighters and Hulks/covetors/bses in npc corps in hi-sec. Its a really weak income stream, but the fact of the matter is that even if corp A learns of that revenue stream, they cannot do anything about it. Maybe suicide on a freighter, but for what? A sec hit and possibly the cost of a clone? That isnt the Eve we know and love. Low sp players deserve the right to play peacefully practically unmolested in exchange for their right to be massively succesful. But if there is a guy out there with millions and millions of SP put into Freighters & trade, I should not have to suicide attack him just to put his gameplay at risk. I should be able to war dec him. If I am in a war deccable corp, and the industrialists are in npc corps, they can call mercs in on me, but what can I call in on them? My answer to the BoB member's critic is thus: New role: "Flagged for deletion". Grants player a grace period whereby he is still in old corp, however has no write access to corp hangars, and is barred from viewing corp chat. Player is automatically removed from corp after x time has passed. Possibly player does not display corp/alliance tags anymore either. If that isnt good enough, well maybe the player should have chosen his corp more carefully. (Perhaps instead of grace period, have a 1 hour period, then npc corp within 30 minutes of entering 0.5 space.) My answer to providing a balance between profit and security: Cannot use Mining barge above Procurer whilst in NPC corp. Cannot use Battleship whilst in NPC corp. Cannot use Freighter whilst in NPC corp. NPC corp tax set to 25% (new players wont notice 25%. Their margins are good but profits small.) Maximum refine value -10% of same char/standings in player corp Connections skills etc less effective whilst in NPC corp. Applies to level 3 agents and above only. Increased sec hit when destroying ships/podding. This is a very raw suggestion, the fine folks at CCP would have a far more clever method. The results: 1. If a powerful corp or alliance wishes to channel huge amount of isk through un-deccable characters, an isk sink effect will be in place due to 25% hit. 2. Wealthy isk barons will potentially be deccable, as there's no way they'd deal with high tax and minimised skill results. It wouldnt hurt the ones sitting in station buying/reselling. However the freighters who afk transport npc goods to and fro would definately need to think twice. 3. General isk sink 4. ISK sellers would develop newer methods of farming. Such as increasing their presence in complexes. Hmmm, remote shield boost. 5. Increase social interaction. Reduce anonymous suicide gank squads. 6. Get pirates moving into new locations instead of just the gates. Now they could war dec all kinds of individuals and do some hi sec pirating. ------------------------------------- Since entering 0.0 I've noticed my wallet slowly crawl towards 0.00. Coincidence? I think not
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.27 02:36:00 - [25] Originally by: Peter Armstrong Edited by: Peter Armstrong on 25/11/2006 09:12:36 Originally by: Vrizuh I think that certain skills should not be trainable within an NPC corp. This way, a person can be new for as long as they like. i agree! Make Racial BS skills, and T2 ship skills, unusable while in an NPC corp? If they're simply untrainable, someone can join a player corp, train the skill, and then leave the corp. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.27 02:51:00 - [26] Edited by: Plutoinum on 27/11/2006 02:52:17 @Vrizuh Nice ideas. I like them. Just to add: If it was done that way, CCP had to keep an eye on wardodging through disbanding corp and making a new one. Otherwise we might run out of corp tickers soon, because people might try to avoid tax and risk completely that way. CTD/con-loss vs. log-out. A proposal for a fix.
Loretta Tong	Posted - 2006.11.27 02:57:00 - [27] Edited by: Loretta Tong on 27/11/2006 03:03:58 no offence, but this will hurt casual players (who either got kicked from thier PC cause not active enough...or havnt made any trustworthy friends..) more than it hurts macros. limiting people because of things like that is a no-no...I mean... our 20$ a month is just as much as your 20$ a month... now.. if they DO limit players in npc corp.. then I DEMAND the subscription fees drops to $5 a month...(you know, I pay $5 a month since I got all the restrictions...) hey, what you are suggestings are different levels of service, they should charge different for reduced and premium (oh dont give me the crap about how trial acounts cant use some of the stuff, the trial acounts arent paying!!!!!..) (...sigh ....is there any suggestions on this forum that doesnt say.... chop off an arm when there is a splinter in a finger???????) and whatever happened to using a Sucide Caracal?... I mean.. even after Kali.. the HP on a hulk still SUCK... can be taken down by 2 to 3 caracals I believe.... (hey, your group lose 3 million, Hulk = 400 mill lost....the ultimate "up yours" ) edited to be NICER to those Facist like people who demand everybody to play their way
X ChaosX Trogdor the Burninator Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.27 03:17:00 - [28] It takes what, 20 minutes and 1.5 mil to start your own corp? If you want to use the skills just start your own corp. ___ Originally by: Bill Shankly i see your another one of those lousy pirates that cant fight fair and call yourself apvper, what a joke u are. Don't represent corp or alliance blah blah
Levin Milcaro	Posted - 2006.11.27 03:22:00 - [29] Edited by: Levin Milcaro on 27/11/2006 03:24:53 Edited by: Levin Milcaro on 27/11/2006 03:23:00 would be fine if making corp cost nothing....... but I can see this opening a can of worms...IE: single person in corp, got wardeced, left corp, made a new one..... and the rules on reforming corps to aviod wardecs kinda implies that its only bad if all member (as in more than one) reforms under the same corp... but since its one person...... you cant really petition that...and if they do start banning people cause of that.... well.. is all downhill from there.....since its essentially giving players a message: "If the time comes that a group of players want to arsrp you .... you have to bend over or we ban you....." and I have to agree with the person that said the solution is well, cause more problems than the problem.. I mean..when I see macros = free ore... and to really **** them off, suicide their barges... player justice.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.27 03:33:00 - [30] And who is piloting that Caracal? How many times can me in my Caracal suicide on say, a Hulk in 1.0 before the character has to be thrown away? Why should I have to dump caracals and characters just to stop an alliance from funding and supplying its 0.0 war? Service level differences? That is a joke. The player isn't being stopped from doing anything. Do you want a CCP discount because concord wont let you gank others and hi sec ore isnt as good as low sec? Its the same thing. You design the game mechanics such that certain behaviours are adjusted. Can you build capital ships in empire (post Kali)? Is that a reduction of your service? How about for me in 0.0. I can't buy up on fertilisers and cart them afk a few jumps and sell them at profit now can I? Im getting different service to you, CCP give me $$ discount! If you're right, then CCP should charge current NPC corp players MORE money for getting the benefits of being in a low tax corp that cannot be war decced. After HP is upped, rigs are added etc, I really don't think that an alt with caracal kills could take me down in a hulk/coveter/domi with resist skills. A main might be able to take me down, but who is going to fly in their main to get concordokened against a fully insured mining vessel in a region where strip miners cost just about nothing? I'll go even further and say that under the current system, you probably wouldn't even touch my mining alt sitting in a belt afk mining into an indy. Sure, its only veld. But 10k+ m3 of dense veld everytime I go to bed, everytime I go to work may just generate enough money to keep me holding in 0.0 Here's a question, seeing as Im using my main. If every active ASCN member were to have a fairly standard industrial setup (~10k M3 cargo hold space) mining dense veld whenever they're afk, how much ISK do you think they could generate a month? Considering that their indy is fully insurable, and only fits some expanders and a Miner II, how much ISK would an attacking alliance need to spend before the ASCN members felt it was no longer worth it? You'd be spending more in modules due to the need to get a lot of damage off quickly. Of that isk generated (through 0 effort, risk), how many battleships do you think could be made and then shipped to 0.0 for the war? Shipped by an npc corp char all the way until out of concord space. The low sp players can remain where they are. True carebears can remain where they are. But a covetor pilot should be guarded at all times. If in player corp, that means sharing some of the profit with a corpmate. If in npc corp, that means sharing some of the profit with concord. ------------------------------------- Since entering 0.0 I've noticed my wallet slowly crawl towards 0.00. Coincidence? I think not

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