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![welsh wizard welsh wizard](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1355239153/portrait?size=64)
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.26 21:17:00 -
[31]
Its all good now if you ask me. (having learnt that the scorp gets a 20% bonus now)
What they've done when you run the numbers through is made the right class of ships good at jamming a similar size of ship.
The heavy duty jam ships (scorp and Rook) get around 12-14 jam strength with ECM mods and rigs so they are good at jamming BS. The BB, Griffin and Falcon come out at a little over half of that so they're ideal for jamming support.
This is the way it should have been to begin with. Specialized ECM platforms performing specialized roles.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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![welsh wizard welsh wizard](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1355239153/portrait?size=64)
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.26 21:44:00 -
[32]
Well that was a lesson in "Don't believe everything you read".
Scorp still only has a 10% bonus to ECM strength per level.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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![FFGR FFGR](https://images.evetech.net/characters/934859167/portrait?size=64)
FFGR
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.26 22:47:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Megadon I'm pretty sure Tux et al knew exactly what they were doing when they nerfed the scorp,blackbird,griffin etc and thats the way they want things to be.
It wasn't enough to just nerf electronic warfare in general, they wanted to nerf EW ships as well so asking for more slots etc is akin to asking them to rollback their nerfbat of doom and that just ain't gonna happen.![Neutral](/images/icon_neutral.gif)
The ECM drones are not affected by the changes though ![Confused](/images/icon_confused.gif) One heavy ECM drone = new multispec strength. That is an indirect buff to ships with drone bays (the only t2 Caldari ships with drone bay are the Nighthawk and the Vulture that are BC hulls with 25m3 each). _______
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment |
![Audri Fisher Audri Fisher](https://images.evetech.net/characters/932873822/portrait?size=64)
Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.26 23:19:00 -
[34]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Originally by: dalman How about... No!?
I don't know about you, but I like to call scorpions primary target already. Because the ship is already very very good. You need to boost something cause it's good or what?
Perhaps you should find out what changes was made to the ECM system in KALI, and what impact those changes will have on the scorp before you post.
I know exactly what changes have been made, I've flown the Scorp on test, and I stay "HELL NO".
well I guess that says it all, becuase he said so.
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![Jenny Spitfire Jenny Spitfire](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1346324202/portrait?size=64)
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.11.26 23:22:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Originally by: dalman How about... No!?
I don't know about you, but I like to call scorpions primary target already. Because the ship is already very very good. You need to boost something cause it's good or what?
Perhaps you should find out what changes was made to the ECM system in KALI, and what impact those changes will have on the scorp before you post.
I know exactly what changes have been made, I've flown the Scorp on test, and I stay "HELL NO".
well I guess that says it all, becuase he said so.
May be he should fit an ECCM. --------- Boryokudan Recruitment. Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! |
![Thornspawn Chalice Thornspawn Chalice](https://images.evetech.net/characters/366239943/portrait?size=64)
Thornspawn Chalice
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Posted - 2006.11.27 00:35:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dominix has 18 slots but Dominix is already good as it is.
domi too gimped need 1 more medslot = kali means no ecm on domi so no worry don't nerf my domi give us new medslot plzz
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![Estrago Estrago](https://images.evetech.net/characters/758151108/portrait?size=64)
Estrago
Caldari Eve guardians Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 01:19:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Estrago on 27/11/2006 01:26:58 Edited by: Estrago on 27/11/2006 01:21:01 Edited by: Estrago on 27/11/2006 01:19:48
Originally by: FFGR Actually, I just went to SiSi (had to repatch ect) and Scorpion is now boosted to 20%.
ATM it is :
Scorp, Rook : 20% ECM effectiveness (at lvl5 you get the same strength as you did pre-patch without any ship bonuses)
BB, Falcon, Griffin : 10% ECM effectiveness (at lvl5 you get 75% as you did pre-patch without any ship bonuses).
No, I don't want my ships to be a pwnmobile, no I don't want to do 356289535 DPS, what I want is to be an effective support ship, something that is getting nerfed at Kali.
If they do that for the Scorp, then no one will use the Caldari recons. I think giving the Falcon and Scorp both either an extra lowslot or 15% and the Rook an extra lowslot or 25% would be fair. The Rook is supposed to be the strongest of the ECM ships, it's a Combat Recon. Just giving the Scorp 20% would make it way overpowered compared to the other two higher class ECM ships due to it's 4 lowslots. - Someone save me from this Sanity. |
![welsh wizard welsh wizard](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1355239153/portrait?size=64)
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.27 01:24:00 -
[38]
Your Rook isn't obsolete in fact I'd lean towards calling it a boost. Use jam strength rigs and the new low-slot ECM damage mods.
It's had its low slots gimped essentially (coz you need to fit said damage mods) but when you think about the possibilities using HAM's its looking a tasty ship.
The Scorpion 20% to ECM strength level thing isn't true. It's still only 10% per level. :(
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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![Estrago Estrago](https://images.evetech.net/characters/758151108/portrait?size=64)
Estrago
Caldari Eve guardians Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 01:30:00 -
[39]
Good to hear, and I know that you can get about the same total strength, but that's giving up the light tanks they used to be able to have. They nerfed it because other ships could use ECM and an awesome tank. Having to use the rig to be as good is also giving up an advantage all the other ships will have. - Someone save me from this Sanity. |
![welsh wizard welsh wizard](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1355239153/portrait?size=64)
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.27 01:58:00 -
[40]
Well I meant if they don't nerf Javelins, fat chance ;)
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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![FFGR FFGR](https://images.evetech.net/characters/934859167/portrait?size=64)
FFGR
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:08:00 -
[41]
tbh, why I bother ?
All hail Lachesis, with over 70% dampening (2 dampening rigs do wonders), while I get a 100% increase on my scramblers and WCS got a nerf in combat usefulness, aswell as I can do much more damage than my Rook and still use 4 medium ECM drones ![Laughing](/images/icon_lol.gif) _______
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment |
![welsh wizard welsh wizard](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1355239153/portrait?size=64)
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.27 02:22:00 -
[42]
I've said it before but damps are the new Ewar King, it'll just take a while for everyone to realise it.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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![FFGR FFGR](https://images.evetech.net/characters/934859167/portrait?size=64)
FFGR
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.27 03:24:00 -
[43]
Originally by: welsh wizard I've said it before but damps are the new Ewar King, it'll just take a while for everyone to realise it.
Damps and ECMs were always the 2 best EW systems (old style dampening scorps anyone ? ), if they go in like they are atm, personally I will prefer having 2 to 4 enemies locked down all the time instead of 0 to 7 _______
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment |
![Tanya Kovacs Tanya Kovacs](https://images.evetech.net/characters/899424895/portrait?size=64)
Tanya Kovacs
SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.27 08:41:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 27/11/2006 08:44:53 Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 27/11/2006 08:42:50
Originally by: FFGR Actually, I just went to SiSi (had to repatch ect) and Scorpion is now boosted to 20%.
ATM it is :
Scorp, Rook : 20% ECM effectiveness (at lvl5 you get the same strength as you did pre-patch without any ship bonuses)
Yay, this are actually great news \o/
I tested on SiSi this weekend and the scorp was weaker then before if you want the same ECM-strength. You would have fewer armor then pre-Kali (always remember other ships have more), battles would last longer and ECM-strength was weaker then pre-Kali. So 20%/level are actually very good news to bring it to a level were it was pre-Kali. But I agree with the statement about the Rook: why flying a Rook when you can have a fully insurable ship with same strength, more damage and more hitpoints?
And no Scorps are not the almighty pwnmobile - they are primary all the time. Fly one in fleetbattles and rethink your statements please.
Originally by: welsh wizard I've said it before but damps are the new Ewar King, it'll just take a while for everyone to realise it.
QFT. Well there is a stacking penatly for dampening per target but dampening it to hell (not only the range but also the locking time) will be really effective. -- All my postings reflects just my personal opinion and my lacking knowledge of proper english.
There is no lag in EVE \o/ |
![Jenny Spitfire Jenny Spitfire](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1346324202/portrait?size=64)
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.11.27 09:29:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/11/2006 09:30:07
Originally by: Tanya Kovacs But I agree with the statement about the Rook: why flying a Rook when you can have a fully insurable ship with same strength, more damage and more hitpoints?
Mobility. Better resists. Small signature. Better sensor for jamming prevention. May be Tux could do a slot reassignment on the Rook so it can fit ECM damage mods. 6/7/2 to 5/7/3 and +20%/+22.5% ECM strength per level? --------- Boryokudan Recruitment. Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! |
![Tanya Kovacs Tanya Kovacs](https://images.evetech.net/characters/899424895/portrait?size=64)
Tanya Kovacs
SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.27 09:50:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 27/11/2006 09:53:34
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/11/2006 09:30:07
Originally by: Tanya Kovacs But I agree with the statement about the Rook: why flying a Rook when you can have a fully insurable ship with same strength, more damage and more hitpoints?
Mobility. Better resists. Small signature. Better sensor for jamming prevention. May be Tux could do a slot reassignment on the Rook so it can fit ECM damage mods. 6/7/2 to 5/7/3 and +20%/+22.5% ECM strength per level?
Yeah you are right with your points. Only point I disagree is the validity of higher resistances - I think more raw hitpoints would still be better. But I didn't do the math how many "raw hp" both the Rook and the Scorpion have, when you calculate the resistances into HP.
We also forgot another point: the way higher sensor resolution of the Rook.
Think both of the ships have pros and cons. Scorp can fit cruise/torp, ****load of plates (a must have), heavy NOS and can warp way further. Rook has the advantages you mentioned. But I think Rook should be a bit better then a Scorp when talking about jammingstrength. So one more lowslot at the cost of one/two highslots or slightly higher bonus/level would be nice. -- All my postings reflects just my personal opinion and my lacking knowledge of proper english.
There is no lag in EVE \o/ |
![welsh wizard welsh wizard](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1355239153/portrait?size=64)
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.27 10:16:00 -
[47]
The Scorpion still only has a 10% bonus to ECM strength though so don't get too excited.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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![Tanya Kovacs Tanya Kovacs](https://images.evetech.net/characters/899424895/portrait?size=64)
Tanya Kovacs
SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.27 10:24:00 -
[48]
Originally by: welsh wizard The Scorpion still only has a 10% bonus to ECM strength though so don't get too excited.
Um on page one somebody mentioned it was changed on SiSi?
Originally by: FFGR Actually, I just went to SiSi (had to repatch ect) and Scorpion is now boosted to 20%.
![ugh](/images/icon_ugh.gif) -- All my postings reflects just my personal opinion and my lacking knowledge of proper english.
There is no lag in EVE \o/ |
![Jenny Spitfire Jenny Spitfire](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1346324202/portrait?size=64)
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.11.27 10:26:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Tanya Kovacs But I think Rook should be a bit better then a Scorp when talking about jammingstrength.
HACs are not battleships. --------- Boryokudan Recruitment. Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! |
![welsh wizard welsh wizard](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1355239153/portrait?size=64)
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.27 10:29:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Tanya Kovacs
Originally by: welsh wizard The Scorpion still only has a 10% bonus to ECM strength though so don't get too excited.
Um on page one somebody mentioned it was changed on SiSi?
Originally by: FFGR Actually, I just went to SiSi (had to repatch ect) and Scorpion is now boosted to 20%.
![ugh](/images/icon_ugh.gif)
It isn't, not sure why he said that.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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![Aramendel Aramendel](https://images.evetech.net/characters/122506644/portrait?size=64)
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 11:15:00 -
[51]
Prolly confused the range with the strength bonus.
Which, btw, is a major difference between damperners and ECM. Max optimal range of damperners is 45k. Max optimal range of (racial) ECM is 135k.
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![FFGR FFGR](https://images.evetech.net/characters/934859167/portrait?size=64)
FFGR
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.27 11:29:00 -
[52]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: Tanya Kovacs
Originally by: welsh wizard The Scorpion still only has a 10% bonus to ECM strength though so don't get too excited.
Um on page one somebody mentioned it was changed on SiSi?
Originally by: FFGR Actually, I just went to SiSi (had to repatch ect) and Scorpion is now boosted to 20%.
![ugh](/images/icon_ugh.gif)
It isn't, not sure why he said that.
Had seen it from the description, I haven't used one to see how much it is so disregard my previous post about the 20% Scorp.
Still, a new version got out and I'm unable atm to get in the test server, so if anyone could be a dear ![YARRRR!!](/images/icon_pirate.gif)
Originally by: Aramendel Prolly confused the range with the strength bonus.
Which, btw, is a major difference between damperners and ECM. Max optimal range of damperners is 45k. Max optimal range of (racial) ECM is 135k.
With Dampeners (and TP, TD's) you tend to play on falloff rather than optimal since those modules are either effect or no effect, while with ECM, Sensor Strength, ECM strength aswell as optimal and falloff are taken into consideration. Trying to jam anything with ECM in optimal+falloff is like trying to get the ball into the basket from the other side of the field (since the chances drop by 50%). Trying to jam anything in optimal+2*falloff and beyong ... well let's just say that you need to go and get some lottery tickets ASAP if you succeed. And optimal for racial ECM is higher, can't remember the exact value atm. _______
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment |
![Aramendel Aramendel](https://images.evetech.net/characters/122506644/portrait?size=64)
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 11:34:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Aramendel on 27/11/2006 11:34:46
Originally by: FFGR With Dampeners (and TP, TD's) you tend to play on falloff rather than optimal since those modules are either effect or no effect
The problem is that in falloff their effect has AFAIK a 50% chance to fail. Which makes them rather unrelyable there. And unlike ECM 1 module succeeding in it's roll is usually not enough to effeciently disable a ship. Also, even if you take their falloff into account racial ECM stil lhas a considerable longer range due to the ship boni of ECM ships.
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![FFGR FFGR](https://images.evetech.net/characters/934859167/portrait?size=64)
FFGR
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.27 12:07:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 27/11/2006 11:34:46
Originally by: FFGR With Dampeners (and TP, TD's) you tend to play on falloff rather than optimal since those modules are either effect or no effect
The problem is that in falloff their effect has AFAIK a 50% chance to fail. Which makes them rather unrelyable there. And unlike ECM 1 module succeeding in it's roll is usually not enough to effeciently disable a ship. Also, even if you take their falloff into account racial ECM stil lhas a considerable longer range due to the ship boni of ECM ships.
In optimal+falloff it's 50%, the closer you get to optimal, the greater the chance. For example you have a 30km optimal and 30km falloff EW module, if your target is at 45km from you, then it's a 75% chance of succeeding.
As for range, depending how far away the enemy is, with a damp you can shut him more effectively. Thing is that for Dampening, every single skill and bonus you have counts, aswell as the shiptype and skills of the player you encounter while with ECM it's just a lottery. _______
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment |
![James Lyrus James Lyrus](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1172000459/portrait?size=64)
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 12:16:00 -
[55]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 27/11/2006 12:20:10 Actually if you pack out your scorp or rook, by which I mean all lows and all rig slots with 'ecm strength' you just about sc*****past the pre-kali levels.
By which I mean with BS5, Signal dispersion 5, and multispec IIs a scorpion gets 7.56 jamming strength. (Compared to 7.5 at the moment).
However in order to get that you're using up all your lows and all your rig slots.
Now I don't know about anyone else, but I consider that quite a heavy nerf to a ship I previously considered 'quite reasonable'. I've flown it in 'small gang' PvP, and even tried soloing in it a few times. It really wasn't overpowered. It _was_ possible to kill stuff occasionally, but ... well that should be possible in any ship.
The fact that a scorp wins solo against a cruiser shouldn't really be a major shock to anyone :). (Even then it takes embarassingly long, to the point where it might just be able to crawl back to the gate).
*shrug*. I'll try it again, but I suspect it'll go in the 'fleet only' drawer, if I don't end up in Rohk instead.
Damps always were very potent EW choices. Personally I think it's more the case that people 'understand' how to use ECMs rather than take advantage of the massive power of tracking disruptors and damps.
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![FFGR FFGR](https://images.evetech.net/characters/934859167/portrait?size=64)
FFGR
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.27 12:27:00 -
[56]
@James Lyrus
New Standard Fleet Issue Scorpion
High : 4x cruise launchers, 1x NOS, 1x remote repairer Medium : 6x Tracking Disruptors t2, 2x Sensor Booster Low : 4x 1600mm plates
Surely it will be better in fleets since everyone is sniping ![Laughing](/images/icon_lol.gif) _______
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment |
![Jenny Spitfire Jenny Spitfire](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1346324202/portrait?size=64)
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.11.27 12:50:00 -
[57]
Originally by: James Lyrus ...
Why not you fly a Scorpion every time you login into EvE for the next one month and tell us what you think after that? I am very sure you will change your current view. --------- Boryokudan Recruitment. Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! |
![Aramendel Aramendel](https://images.evetech.net/characters/122506644/portrait?size=64)
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:22:00 -
[58]
Originally by: James Lyrus Damps always were very potent EW choices. Personally I think it's more the case that people 'understand' how to use ECMs rather than take advantage of the massive power of tracking disruptors and damps.
The problem is that the "massive power" of TDs/SDs has rather huge loopholes. They have compareable strength to ECM vs the ships they are effective against - but unlike ecm they also have a good number of ships where they are useless.
Both have a rather limited effect on ships smaller than you (ECM actually gets *better* there) and while damperners are not really that effective vs closerange ships TDs also have zero effects vs nos, missiles, ecm, damperners, warp scramblers and also are not really very effective vs ACs/Blasters of the same size or smaller. An ac rupture and blaster throax will still be able to hit an arbi which has 3 TDs on them quite well.
ECM has no natural enemies. Exept drones, that is, but only under specific conditions and it also shares that weakness with the other EW systems.
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![LoKesh LoKesh](https://images.evetech.net/characters/980197902/portrait?size=64)
LoKesh
Amarr InQuest Ascension Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.27 21:59:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Megadon I'm pretty sure Tux et al knew exactly what they were doing when they nerfed the scorp,blackbird,griffin etc and thats the way they want things to be.
I'd really like to hear that from the horse's mouth. As much as I like Eve and trust CCP, I realize that sometimes they they miss things (especially in the midst of big projects like Kali)
Originally by: Megadon It wasn't enough to just nerf electronic warfare in general, they wanted to nerf EW ships as well so asking for more slots etc is akin to asking them to rollback their nerfbat of doom and that just ain't gonna happen.![Neutral](/images/icon_neutral.gif)
Reading the devblog on ECM would suggest otherwise: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=380
I'm not gonna quote, as that seems to be frowned upon - but the general summary of the first paragraph is that dedicated ECM ships were fine - powerful, but easily killed when a jam fails.
Now they jam less often, and then have even less defense.
An additional low slot on all these ships (even at the cost of a high slot) would fix this. As would slightly bumping up the ship bonus (ie 15%/lvl and 25-30%)
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![LoKesh LoKesh](https://images.evetech.net/characters/980197902/portrait?size=64)
LoKesh
Amarr InQuest Ascension Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:02:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Aramendel
ECM has SEVERAL, RATHER EFFECTIVE natural enemies. These include - Drones (which chew straight through ECM dedicated ships), FoF missiles, smart bombs, sensor dampeners, any ship with a fast lock time.
Edit for truth
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