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Ki An Gallente Ghouls	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:12:00 - [1] First a disclaimer: This post is not intended to incite flames, but more an informational thread for people like me who represent the opposite side of the spectrum of EVE players. The thread is mainly aimed at those who use logging off as a mechanic to avoid getting killed. Personally I find this tactic to be cheating and borderline offensive, but as I have noticed, a lot of others don't, hence this thread. I would call upon those who use logging off to avoid death to please answer me three questions. Try to keep this flame-free please, as we don't need another one of those threads. This is to help me and people like me understand how you feel and why. Do you find logging off to be a valid tactic in combat in EVE. If so, are there special circumstances where it is more valid, and are there circumstances where it shouldn't be used? [list=2] If everyone in EVE used this tactic to avoid death, do you think it would be bad for the game? If so, please explain how. If not, please explain how you feel EVE should be. [/list=2] [list=3] What would you like to change in EVE to keep you from logging off to avoid death? [/list=3] Once again, keep it flame free. I am mainly interested in those who defend this tactic. /Ki
Svenforkbeard	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:20:00 - [2] If you have managed to evade the trap laid by dirty piwates, and get to a SS, and then leap between a few SS until agro timer gone, whats the beef with logging off to avoid the gank? Or is it logging off at the gate camp that winds people up? Will logging rise now that stabs are nerfed, or will low sec/0.0 just become quiter?
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:26:00 - [3] Originally by: Svenforkbeard Or is it logging off at the gate camp that winds people up? That's it. If you log off before you get shot, you will disappear in one minute, even if scrambled. If you log off in a bubble, you'll warp out. These are obvious bugs, but CCP won't declare using them exploits due to how difficult it would be to enforce such a rule. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
infraX Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:27:00 - [4] Edited by: infraX on 25/11/2006 17:27:32 Logging off is lame mmk. CCP don't consider logging off to be an exploit, presumably because anyone has the right to log off whenever they please and it would be too hard to police anyway. If your impending death is iminent due to your own stupidity of jumping into an enemy blob camp and your only way to cheat death is to abuse an out of game mechanic like logging off then you are a very sad individual indeed and deserve to burn in hell. Those are not flames, that's my honest opinion. I hope it answers your question.
MacDuncan Minmatar Unknown Society	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:28:00 - [5] No...logging to prevent death is never acceptable...die like real men ffs.! If your char is in any unsuitable position where he's going to die than you made obviously something wrong before (e.g. no scouting). And even if all ppl in EvE would do so, i wouldn't...millions of flies are eating and enjoying dung, will you, too? --
Ki An Gallente Ghouls	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:29:00 - [6] Please try to use the list format provided, answering those three questions. Try to avoid discussing the issue in this thread. There are other threads for that. Also, I already feel logging is lame. I want to know what the other side feels now without flames as a consequence. /Ki
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:35:00 - [7] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Svenforkbeard Or is it logging off at the gate camp that winds people up? That's it. If you log off before you get shot, you will disappear in one minute, even if scrambled. If you log off in a bubble, you'll warp out. These are obvious bugs, but CCP won't declare using them exploits due to how difficult it would be to enforce such a rule. Also, NPCers who log as soon as someone hits local are impossible to touch. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
mergblue Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:39:00 - [8] I doubt you'll get a lot of people admitting to logging off in combat in the public space of the E-O forums. But good luck anyways. I only wish logging off was a bit more time/effort consuming than simply hitting CTRL+Q. They should at the very least remove the shortcut and add a couple of verification messages.
Ki An Gallente Ghouls	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:42:00 - [9] Originally by: mergblue I doubt you'll get a lot of people admitting to logging off in combat in the public space of the E-O forums. But good luck anyways. I only wish logging off was a bit more time/effort consuming than simply hitting CTRL+Q. They should at the very least remove the shortcut and add a couple of verification messages. Several people already have in other threads. In this one I would like to give them a chance to explain their reasoning without a lot of people kicking their (hiney) about it. So, I ask again, please leave this space to those who feel they are willing to answer my questions and keep the debate to another thread. /Ki
Valerek Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:47:00 - [10] I find logging a very UNHONORABLE tactic in fleet warfare. I find it a legit tactic against lame gangkers. Sue me!

Ki An Gallente Ghouls	Posted - 2006.11.25 18:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Valerek I find logging a very UNHONORABLE tactic in fleet warfare. I find it a legit tactic against lame gangkers. Sue me! Please do elaborate. That's what this thread is about. If you want, try to answer the three questions in the original post. You don't need to be so defensive in this thread. /Ki
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics	Posted - 2006.11.25 18:14:00 - [12] CCP should just have followed through with what they said they wanted a few years ago. Aka taking it away from gates. 80% ballpark figure of your various issues relating lost right there. People are allways going to log if they see a certain death gank.....human nature. Right or wrong, i couldn't care less tbh... not that i do it... i did it once back in 04 to save a 1 million isk literon 5 with about a 1 million worth giant tainers in truth... personal reasons why i did that, had nothing to do with isk.. a wallet of billions, not letting a promise down to a friend seemed more important at the time though... Been ganked a few times since at gates in ships that realy cost, thought of logging out never even crossed my mind... i normaly just see it, hit warp and take a trip to the kitchen to grab a coffee... im sitting on a safe when i get back, i got lucky, in a clone station i didn't. Isk and assets don't matter to me, id never log in that reguard.. though i could see why others would given time and effort to replace, not everybody has that time. ______
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2006.11.25 18:31:00 - [13] 1) Do I find logging off to be a valid tactic? Sure! Here's why. I'm not here to fight player characters. I don't pay my subscription to provide YOU with amusement. Don't get me wrong. EVE is exciting precisely because there are malevolent human intelligences lurking between me and the goodies. And I'll engage those intelligences on my own terms, when I think I can beat them. But when I'm doing my best to avoid them, and I've failed, I don't feel the slightest obligation to provide them with entertainment at my expense. I'll use any mechanic the game allows to avoid them. And logging off, in some circumstances, is the only one I have. 2) What if everyone in EVE did this? It's my impression that pretty much everyone already does. A few forum zealots aside, this is a game of seekers-after-advantage, and I don't see very many people who pass up any tactic that gives them an advantage. 3) What would I like to change in EVE to keep you from logging off to avoid death? Well, obviously it's a boring thing to do, it interrupts gameplay. So better escape options would do the trick. I think the warp to zero will help a lot. I've really only used logging off two or three times in my Eve career, including once when I went to 0.0 as a newbie and about fifty people started hunting me in my Velator (!). I don't think logging off for a few hours to get out of that situation was lame, I think them hunting me was lame. And I'm ****ed proud to have gotten my newbie ship home to Empire in one piece. This whole argument is a version of the "OMG, UR a ckickne 4 you wont come out station and fight my pwnmbile in UR Badger" nonsense. What, you think I came to this system to FIGHT? Feh, I have better things to do. Not everybody is playing this game for personal combat. And there's no shame in avoiding it by whatever means necessary, when you weren't looking for it in the first place.
Mia Alabaster	Posted - 2006.11.25 18:32:00 - [14] I feel logging is valid when faced with a gatecamp. When fighting one on one you probably shouldn't log. It's just when you get jumped by 20 ppl at once I feel it's ok to do it. I think it would be bad for the game. If everyone did it the market would crash. I hope CCP finds a way to fix the reasons for people logging so I can stop doing it. I would like gate-ganks to be made a lot harder (mabey even impossible) and for CCP to get rid of high-sec gankings. If they do that, I'll stop logging.
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2006.11.25 18:39:00 - [15] Some people are playing the wrong game, it's sad.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.11.25 18:42:00 - [16] Originally by: mergblue I only wish logging off was a bit more time/effort consuming than simply hitting CTRL+Q. They should at the very least remove the shortcut and add a couple of verification messages. Speak for yourself. Ctrl+Q is rebound to undock on my client. I've gone to press Ctrl+A and slipped a few too many times. Protagonist must have an Antagonist. Otherwise he's just a guy playing with himself. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Tara'Quoya Rax Black-Sun	Posted - 2006.11.25 19:11:00 - [17] Death is a fundamental concept in EVE, regardless of situation. It should not be avoided or circumvented by terminating your ingame connection. It should be handled completely ingame, by normal play. Either escape, fight back, take preventive measures (map, scout), ... But if it means you lose your ship and/or clone, then that's something you have to accept and find peace with. That's how the game is intended to work.
T'Renn Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.25 19:47:00 - [18] The only time I will EVER log off is if I enter a system on my way somewhere and though the incoming gate I just took was clear, I see a lot of enemy in local. That tells me that they're at the other gate. I'll sometimes log for a little while and come back later to see if the camp has dispersed. If I encounter a gatecamp, i.e. ships on my overview, or if I am in combat of any sort I will never log. That's the lowest of the low.
Darkenral	Posted - 2006.11.25 19:52:00 - [19] 1. I think logging is generally poor sport but considering that amount of time grinding to replace stuff in EVE it is no surprise that it is so prevelant. 2. If everyone logged to avoid death I dont really think it would make 1 IOTA of difference except that they would be able to log back on and get back in the fight ASAP rather than getting the whole new ship / etc etc (Yes yes i know I have multiple PVP ships RTG but at some point they need to be replaced - mods bought - and isk made - not to mention travel time to wherever the fight actually is) 3. Nobody logs in other games when in PVP ever wonder why? Becuase they dont have to spend ages grinding to get back to PVP &/or most games do not let you PVP the crafters as they are taking their goods to market go figure? Oddly enough as a general rule I find (Purely a personal observation) that in other games a much larger % of the player base PVP's more often becuase it much less hassle. I think the so called "Large death penalty" = More time grinding to get stuff = More hassle than its worth for lots of casual players. I mean I would love to PVP in all my BEST gear in my BEST ships but for what? When the eventual loss comes it would take me months to recoup that gear..months..so disposable ships it is, how lame is that? There are so many things that are way more broken than some ppl logging to avoid replacing a ship this topic really needs a rest IMO. If they logged you won whats the issue no killmail for the board? Dark
hobieone Caldari Intergalactic Commerce Union	Posted - 2006.11.25 20:12:00 - [20] the answer to this issue is simple add 10 to 20 times more jumpgates into low sec areas making it possible to eneter low sec and avoid the camps/blockades. as now ther arn't tha many gates into low sec areas from high sec areas and can be during peak times imposssible to avoid one and getting killed. if the answer is no to adding alot more routes into low sec. then just live with the logging tactics. personally logging while in a combat vessel i'll agree is dishonarable but in a hauller its different story chances are it just someone trying to make a living crafting and selling equipment. and to indiscrimatly kill every single ship could hurt the economy in lows sec areas and eventually see things like a raven that sells in 0.0 for 1 bil when the same ship in high sec will go for a 100mill isk or eventually those with low sec rating wil have to risk getting blasted by concorde trying to get to high sec to get ammo because no crafter will sell in low sec due to they can never get through the gate camps alive. but on a one on one in a isolated area then no shouldn't log at all due to you can see this in a dvance and would give a few tactical options to anyone and ther would be chance at survival. only say this due most log offs i've seen have been at or near gate camps. which getting or trying to punch through them are almost always suicide. and maybe people are just gate camping a bit too much and too often then again not many choices available to pick which gate to camp or a way to plot a course around a known camp through a different gate with a fleet to smash the gate camp from behind them Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes

Ki An Gallente Ghouls	Posted - 2006.11.25 20:19:00 - [21] Some responses using the intended format. I thank you for that. Once again I'd like to remind everyone that this thread is not about discussing the issue, but more of a list of oppinions of those who condone logging. I started this topic because I could not understand the reasoning of the loggers. I am beginning to understand now. Keep it coming. /Ki
Asestorian Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.25 20:57:00 - [22] Originally by: Ki An Do you find logging off to be a valid tactic in combat in EVE. If so, are there special circumstances where it is more valid, and are there circumstances where it shouldn't be used? I don't think its a valid tactic, simply because it is an out of game one. What really annoys me though are the people who don't bother using the the ingame tools available to try and escape, or avoid getting into the situation in the first place. They simply use it out of laziness because they couldn't be bothered to actually play the game properly. If you did use all the ingame options available to you, well, I don't mind as much, but would prefer it didn't happen. The only time I consider logging off to be acceptable is if a Log-in trap was used. Using out of game tactics to escape out of game tactics is fine by me. Using out of game tactics to cheat death from ingame tactics sucks though. Originally by: Ki An If everyone in EVE used this tactic to avoid death, do you think it would be bad for the game? If so, please explain how. If not, please explain how you feel EVE should be. Hmm, hard to say really. I imagine that the death rate would go down quite a lot from what it is now. I think I read in someone else's answer that it wouldn't affect the game at all because everyone but some forum zealots already do it. I don't think this is the case. I know a lot of people who don't use this tactic, and indeed hate it, but don't post on the forums. Reduced death rate brings reduced need for new ships. And so less ships are sold. What this means I don't know, as I am no good at that kind of thing. I guess there will be a lot of people who start losing a lot of their income. Originally by: Ki An What would you like to change in EVE to keep you from logging off to avoid death? Well, as I said, I don't do this. But perhaps some more usable ingame ways to escape death. I really don't know what to do to fix it though, as if I could think of it, I'm sure the devs would have already heh. --- I just have to say to those that say things like "I pay for this game and these people have no right to reduce my enjoyment by blowing up my stuff." Now, its not normally said like that but that is how I see it. Yes ganks are pretty lame, but remember, this is a PvP game, that includes combat, the market etc. And logging off is an out of game tactic, that reduces the enjoyment of the game for those shooting at you. I believe that in some cases the people who log off to escape combat are simply playing the wrong game. They don't seem to understand or accept that low security space, and indeed in some cases high security space, has non-consensual combat. Don't be so hypocritical by ruining peoples fun to stop them ruining yours. Especially if they are doing it fairly, ingame, because whatever you may think, ganks are fair. This is an MMO, and grouping is the whole idea really. --- ---
Bastogne Caldari Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:09:00 - [23] I've logged a couple of times when there is absolutely no other way out, either fighting or running. Mainly with gate camps. I've also logged after escaping from a gang that tried to gank me and I got away. Also, of course any time I've had the upper hand on a pirate they've logged on us. It's really aggravating when pirates yell at your for logging to escape their gate camp of doom, but when you get a gang together to go bust their camp they log off as soon as you enter local. Here's my idea for solving the log-off issue. No longer have ctrl-Q warp you away, and instead create an Emergency Warp navigation skill that allows you to warp away regardless of if you are in a bubble or scrammed. However, the emergency warp would take 3/4 of your remaining cap when you activate the skill, and do 50% damage to structure, and of course you then still have to manage to escape with the gang not catching back up to you. it gives the victim a last ditch effort to escape and the gankers a posibility of using those nifty scanning skills they supposedly all have to cathc their prey again.
Mayoz Miner	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:34:00 - [24] I have not done it yet but I would only ever log of at a gate camp and see nothing wrong with it tbh. I do have a problem with logging in other situatiions though e.g. like a 1v1 ect.
Arlen Warstadt	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:18:00 - [25] 1. Is logging a valid comabat tactic? No, imo. I don't think it is a valid COMBAT tactic and it's pretty lame to be honest. If you're duking it out with a BS, say, in a BS of your own, but then you start losing, logging in this case is just chicken. However, if I'm running around in my Badger/hauler and a Raven complete with torps locks me, you're **** right I'm gonna log! Not to say that replacing a Badger is expensive, but for me it's more a time issue, not to mention that the thing that follows being blown up is often a swift podding (think implants), unless you find a "merciful pirate" (pssh yea right). Someone said it best earlier. I'm in my freaking Badger, I'm not looking to fight stuff. Makes me think sometimes pirates nuke haulers/indys cuz they can't kill anything else. 2. If everyone used it, would it be bad? Yes, if only in terms of server stability and load. 3. What would you like to change? Don't know really. I think it would be hard to implement a mechanic whereby someone could log off in like a situation above versus in an actual ship-to-ship fight
Amateratsu Caldari Terra Incognita Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:30:00 - [26] Do you find logging off to be a valid tactic in combat in EVE. If so, are there special circumstances where it is more valid, and are there circumstances where it shouldn't be used? I have never used logging off myself, but i can understand why people do it. Those against it argue that is is the victims responsibillity to avoid getting caught in the first place. Avoiding gatecamps is not as simple as they think, not every player has multiple accounts or a disposable alt scout to fly ahead. Uing the map is unreliable. the options "ships/pods desroyed in last hour/24 hours only updates when you log in, if you've been online for several hours, that information is out of date and useless. You have no way of knowing what is on the other side of the gate until you jump, and then its too late, if there is a camp there, logging is your only hope of escape. And as a previous poster said, it costs conciderable time and effort to replace lost assets so players will log to avoid the cost of getting blobbed. there is no way a single ship can fight its way out of a blob camp unless its setup by idiots. If everyone in EVE used this tactic to avoid death, do you think it would be bad for the game? If so, please explain how. If not, please explain how you feel EVE should be. everybody logging would probably be bad for the game, but i can't think of any reasons atm What would you like to change in EVE to keep you from logging off to avoid death? Once again, keep it flame free. I am mainly interested in those who defend this tactic. More options to avoid the situations where players feel the need to use log off tactics. for starters i would fix the map options so that they update live, ie as soon as a ship destruction accurs, the data in the map is updated immediately, not when you relog. an option to see how many players are in the system your about to jump into (not who they are, just how many) again live updated. As stated above, not everyone has access to a disposable scout to aquire that information. Also i like the idea of the emergency warp button suggested above, it would give you a fighting chance to escape a blob, but using it should temporarrily disble your ship so the hunters have a fighting chance to catch you using skills instead of blobs. Inscrease sentry gun strength to force combat away from gate camping... and many other options
Dendrin Koljn Minmatar Elite United Corp	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:52:00 - [27] Originally by: Ki An 1. Do you find logging off to be a valid tactic in combat in EVE. If so, are there special circumstances where it is more valid, and are there circumstances where it shouldn't be used? No, if used to avoid dying in combat then it's just an exploit. Saying that, I personaly would use it (haven't been in the situation yet) if caught by a gate camp - where the camp is sat outside the range of the sentries - I view this as an exploit also. Originally by: Ki An 2. If everyone in EVE used this tactic to avoid death, do you think it would be bad for the game? If so, please explain how. If not, please explain how you feel EVE should be. Definately bad....Pirates would flame, most PvP would be pointless, trade would suffer. Originally by: Ki An 3. What would you like to change in EVE to keep you from logging off to avoid death? As a rule i only log when in a station and can see no prob with limiting log off to stations. Saying that...with the changes due in Kali (warp to 0, and more importantly poss bubbles up to 0.4) then I can see it becoming the only possible defense against gate camps....until CCP find a way of getting bubbles to pull ships out of warp anywhere along a warp, so camps move away from the gates.
Kumu Honua	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:56:00 - [28] Edited by: Kumu Honua on 25/11/2006 23:57:27 1) Do you find logging off to be a valid tactic in combat in EVE. If so, are there special circumstances where it is more valid, and are there circumstances where it shouldn't be used? No, I personally do not find it to be a valid tactic as it's not a tactic at all, it's a workaround. Your pilot isn't doing anything, you are unplugging him. You have "Broken the 4th wall" so to speak. How ever, I do understand why it happens. T2 prices have irritated me, and I'm only just scratching the surface. I am paying almost 3 million for each drone I use. Prices are prohibitive to anyone who has not played long enough to have billions in their wallet. 2) If everyone in EVE used this tactic to avoid death, do you think it would be bad for the game? If so, please explain how. If not, please explain how you feel EVE should be. Removal of a core component of Eve (Ship destruction) would cause one of the problems that EVERY OTHER MMO IN EXISTENCE SO FAR has. Absolute rampant inflation. You never have to replace anything. So your money becomes worthless. However, Eve has the opposite side. The production is limited to select few people and you end up paying more than an item is worth because they hold the cards and there is nothing you can do about it. There simply isn't enough for the player base. 3) What would you like to change in EVE to keep you from logging off to avoid death? T2 BPO's would be increased. If there were more production, it would drive the prices down into reasonable areas. There simply is no reason to be paying 3million for something that has a base price of 95.536,00. That is 30x the base price. Quite the profit margin. The only reason for it is demand far outstrips supply. The player base has risen significantly, however T2 BPO's have not matched. Personally, if it didn't cost so much to replace my ship, I would be less afraid to lose it every now and then. (Remember. I have not once used the "Tactic" as I do not agree with it. I simply understand it.)
Jiano Hito Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.26 00:00:00 - [29] I don't log at gates, only time that I log is to save my pod when I get bad lag from ship death. Not going to lose my pod because I'm lagging and can't warp away. Reason I do this is I lost a cruiser and lagged for about a minute. When I stopped lagging, I was in my new clone.
NiGHTS	Posted - 2006.11.26 00:05:00 - [30] 1. Yes. I just can't be inconvienced with a death because then I'd have to buy another ship from market and then outfit it again which takes a couple of hours. 2. Don't know as I don't gatecamp yet. 3. Enable some sort of option where you can set ships + equipment fitting layouts into a bookmark. This bookmark would buy the ship and all the modules in one click and then charge you to have the whole thing shipped to your station. Alternatively, the stuff could shipped to one centralized area for pickup, because it's just no fun spending hours getting all the various parts from the different regions. Of course implementing this system would need to be adjusted for use in 0.0 regions where blockade running has its niche. mailto:[email protected]plz spam m3 -Eldo



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