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The new ships, DPS comparisons, *attn: graph makers and math geniuses*

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HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:39:00 - [1] Ok, i'm a lazy man. Not to mention if i made a graph, i'd frack it all up and my thread would be pure "your math is wrong" What i would like to see is one source (links if ya got em, or if its not too much bother, just throw the graphs together) comparing the DPS of both the new BCs and the new BSs. I know i've seen em around, but i dont think i've seen both ship types comparing all 4 races on each in one place. and one more question.... why dont the devs post DPS graphs and such when they release the new ships? I would hope that mathmatical representation of combat would be their deciding factor in boosting/nerfing ships as opposed to just flying them and trying to 'feel them out'. It would also save the devs some trouble by just pointing to their graphs and saying "now after the change you can see this, which is more inline/balanced w/ this.... you know, instead of just saying "ship A is a beast" "ship B is ok, but better than you think" graphs baby! gimmie that statistical goodness!! (and no, 'iffy' graphs please. dont want any fuzzy math or different #'d damage mods between ships unless their is a good reason for it)
devianc3	Posted - 2006.11.26 09:16:00 - [2] DPS isn't everything
Hablacraja Relic Defense Initiative The OSS	Posted - 2006.11.26 10:39:00 - [3] I think you'll find that this graph should clear things up for you.
turnschuh Eye of God	Posted - 2006.11.26 10:41:00 - [4] 2006.11.26 09:55:44 Combat Your 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II perfectly strikes Angel Warlord, wrecking for 528.0 damage. Im beginning to like kali....
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.26 10:43:00 - [5] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/11/2006 10:45:26 Originally by: turnschuh 2006.11.26 09:55:44 Combat Your 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II perfectly strikes Angel Warlord, wrecking for 528.0 damage. Im beginning to like kali.... So what if you get one good hit against structure with 0 resists, when your dps is much, much lower than gallente over time? Dont mislead people into thinking autocannons are good. And to the OP, damage graphs dont tell the whole story. You have to factor in tanking, slot layout, speed and other stuff as well to decide if a ship is good or bad. But when you see a super tanker like Drake have extreme damage AND range with javelins, you know its unbalanced. Because that ship could tank several others for a long, long time, and its not balanced that it also should have higher dps. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.26 10:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Hablacraja I think you'll find that this graph should clear things up for you. win tbfh ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Car Wars adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:03:00 - [7] Originally by: Hablacraja I think you'll find that this graph should clear things up for you. lmoa, thats funny
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:18:00 - [8] Originally by: Hablacraja I think you'll find that this graph should clear things up for you. ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:26:00 - [9] Originally by: Jim McGregor Dont mislead people into thinking autocannons are good. Could you be any more biased? I think AC's are awsome, the only bad thing about them was Hail ammo and now it's the best close range ammo in the game. The only thing AC's could complain about anymore is their DoT but if you combine their better range, better tracking, zero cap consumption and very good damage types, I think it's a pretty fair trade. I think you look at their raw DoT and say "AC's suck" but not all guns are meant to be the same, they all have pro's and cons. AC's are very good guns but if all you care about is damage, change to different guns, don't whine for all guns to identical. -Bart
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Sir Bart Originally by: Jim McGregor Dont mislead people into thinking autocannons are good. Could you be any more biased? I think AC's are awsome, the only bad thing about them was Hail ammo and now it's the best close range ammo in the game. The only thing AC's could complain about anymore is their DoT but if you combine their better range, better tracking, zero cap consumption and very good damage types, I think it's a pretty fair trade. I think you look at their raw DoT and say "AC's suck" but not all guns are meant to be the same, they all have pro's and cons. AC's are very good guns but if all you care about is damage, change to different guns, don't whine for all guns to identical. -Bart And they would be great and balanced, thanks to there longer falloff. However, there is a complete flaw in this argument: Null. Now blasters outdamage ACs everywhere inside scramble range. Balance ftw! Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Verus Potestas And they would be great and balanced, thanks to there longer falloff. However, there is a complete flaw in this argument: Null. Now blasters outdamage ACs everywhere inside scramble range. You're still only looking at damage. And the scramble range arguemnt only works if we're talking about 1 vs 1 with battleships. If you look at cruisers and frigs, the range helps within 20km. If you look at gangs where the target dies really fast and you don't get time to get into your optimal, range helps. Also, if you want NULL as the crux of your argument, you'll be happy to hear it's getting a tracking penalty. 7 guns with null and the tracking becomes: 13.3% of original (I'm assuming the tracking penalties compound the same way as other ammo's penalties). That means the only way for us to land hits is with something webbed and if it's webbed, we'll use VOID. If it's out of web range, we have to use t1 ammo. -Bart
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:01:00 - [12] Barrage gets exactly the same penalty. Besdies, Null has no problems at all tracking at 15-20km, even with the tracking bork. When weapons balanced to track at 3-4km start shooting at 5x their normal range, their tracking becomes pretty excellent. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:13:00 - [13] TBH, ACs don't have enough DPS versus modern double-rep tanks, not to mention shield booster + amp tanks. IMO, they need boosting; they should not have as much DPS as pulse lasers or blasters, but they should have more DPS than they have now. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:28:00 - [14] Originally by: Sir Bart Originally by: Verus Potestas And they would be great and balanced, thanks to there longer falloff. However, there is a complete flaw in this argument: Null. Now blasters outdamage ACs everywhere inside scramble range. You're still only looking at damage. And the scramble range arguemnt only works if we're talking about 1 vs 1 with battleships. If you look at cruisers and frigs, the range helps within 20km. If you look at gangs where the target dies really fast and you don't get time to get into your optimal, range helps. Also, if you want NULL as the crux of your argument, you'll be happy to hear it's getting a tracking penalty. 7 guns with null and the tracking becomes: 13.3% of original (I'm assuming the tracking penalties compound the same way as other ammo's penalties). That means the only way for us to land hits is with something webbed and if it's webbed, we'll use VOID. If it's out of web range, we have to use t1 ammo. -Bart penalties applied to gun stats only apply to the gun the ammo is loaded in. Penalties to ship stats compound. Barrage has the same tracking penalty as null now. an AC loaded with Kali hail is range-wise comparable to a blaster. Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Reatu Krentor penalties applied to gun stats only apply to the gun the ammo is loaded in. Penalties to ship stats compound. Thanks, I've been trying to get onto singularity to test this but for some reason I'm unable to dl the patch.
Earthan Gallente The Amazing Fire Eaters	Posted - 2006.11.26 13:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Hablacraja I think you'll find that this graph should clear things up for you. lol good one - A knight in space,war veteran. The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.11.26 14:53:00 - [17] Originally by: Hablacraja I think you'll find that this graph should clear things up for you. NB. In Rust We Trust
Tyler Lowe Minmatar DROW Org	Posted - 2006.11.26 17:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Hablacraja I think you'll find that this graph should clear things up for you. Probably one of the most accurate graphs posted recently. J.A.F.O.
Kalsius Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.11.26 18:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Hablacraja I think you'll find that this graph should clear things up for you. lmao Classic
Scordite	Posted - 2006.11.26 19:07:00 - [20] I thought nerfitude was measured in bat impacts per cubic meter. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
haniblecter	Posted - 2006.11.26 20:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Sir Bart Originally by: Jim McGregor Dont mislead people into thinking autocannons are good. Could you be any more biased? I think AC's are awsome, the only bad thing about them was Hail ammo and now it's the best close range ammo in the game. The only thing AC's could complain about anymore is their DoT but if you combine their better range, better tracking, zero cap consumption and very good damage types, I think it's a pretty fair trade. I think you look at their raw DoT and say "AC's suck" but not all guns are meant to be the same, they all have pro's and cons. AC's are very good guns but if all you care about is damage, change to different guns, don't whine for all guns to identical. -Bart Here here to that! Cant wait to use hail on my vagabond. Granted, the damage is alot lower, but its alot better to use compared to barrage or any other close range ammo. Me soo happy. Bet the prices for Hail have gone through the roof.
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.27 05:25:00 - [22] Edited by: Sir Bart on 27/11/2006 05:25:13 Originally by: Verus Potestas When weapons balanced to track at 3-4km start shooting at 5x their normal range, their tracking becomes pretty excellent. Just checked and my mega will still be able to track a nano phoon if I use null, good enough for me. (would be nice if I could track a vaga but I guess I'm dreaming). -Bart
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.27 06:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Hablacraja I think you'll find that this graph should clear things up for you. lol, not quite what i was looking for nice though. did you get that from the devs? :P
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.27 06:18:00 - [24] Originally by: Jim McGregor And to the OP, damage graphs dont tell the whole story. You have to factor in tanking, slot layout, speed and other stuff as well to decide if a ship is good or bad. But when you see a super tanker like Drake have extreme damage AND range with javelins, you know its unbalanced. Because that ship could tank several others for a long, long time, and its not balanced that it also should have higher dps. yeah, i'm aware. note i dont have an exclamation mark as a portrait the point to taking everything into account, tanking, various combat scenarios, etc.... is all a mute point if you dont nail down stats on the ships potential. to develop setups for your new ship or to prepare yourself vs new ships, a good place to start is damage graphs showing the possible long and short range potentals. of course a graph doesn't tell you the whole story, just a good place to start
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.27 09:27:00 - [25] hank if you want a graph ask in www.scrapheap-challenge.com its a much better forum than here where people tend to be helpful rather than sarcastic and tend to know what their talking about whereas people here often dont
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.27 09:30:00 - [26] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/11/2006 09:31:35 Originally by: haniblecter Here here to that! Cant wait to use hail on my vagabond. Granted, the damage is alot lower, but its alot better to use compared to barrage or any other close range ammo. Me soo happy. Bet the prices for Hail have gone through the roof. You're so going to die... Getting into web range with a Vaga is not recommended. :) And you would have to sit still to make Hail hit... neither of those things are good as a Vaga pilot. But try it on the test server and see how it works. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.27 09:36:00 - [27] found one for you.. http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0611/bc_disaster.png
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.27 10:46:00 - [28] If a dev posts a dps graph, as you have seen from your thread, you get a whole load of forum ninjas beating the drum about their own special interest, and how 'it sucks'. This gets magnified by the presence of that little yellow bar. Just to summarise: Lasers do good tracking and optimal. They do quite a lot of damage. They use no ammo. They can swap ammo instantly. They suck because: They drain cap that's needed for your tank. They have a rubbish falloff. Everyone tanks EM/Thermal, because they armour tank with EANMs. Projectiles have a good long falloff, can do variable damage types, and use no cap to fire. Autocannons have really minimal fittings. They suck because their paper dps is low. They have poor tracking, so your 'optimal' isn't. They actually have a poor optimal too. In order to use those variable damage types they lose dps. Hybrids cover both the highest (theoretical) dps guns, and the longest range ones. They suck because: They use lots of cap (more than lasers in some situations) You have to get really close to use blasters, and so you have to use mwds. At blaster optimals your tracking isn't very good (low range = relatively higher transverse) Missiles have variable damage types. They are long range. They use no cap. They have options for FoF variants. They suck because: They have to cover the distance, so the target is gone before they hit. They do a poor 'paper' DPS. Explosion radius means even a stationary 'ceptor takes minimal amounts of damage (where a turret would be able to pop it) Explosion velocity means a 'ceptor mwding directly towards you won't die, where a turret will just pop it. Drones come in different damage types. They do a reasonable amount of damage (especially with a ship bonus). They are 'fire and forget' in the sense that even whilst jammed drones carry on doing their thing. They use no cap. You can get EW drones instead. They suck because: They can be blown up. You don't carry enough to have coverage of all the damage types (except in a few unusual cases). They have to fly to the target. They're stupid. They're stupid. (OK, technically it's the same one twice, but it's worth repeating)
Riho Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolance	Posted - 2006.11.27 11:01:00 - [29] Originally by: James Lyrus If a dev posts a dps graph, as you have seen from your thread, you get a whole load of forum ninjas beating the drum about their own special interest, and how 'it sucks'. This gets magnified by the presence of that little yellow bar. Just to summarise: Lasers do good tracking and optimal. They do quite a lot of damage. They use no ammo. They can swap ammo instantly. They suck because: They drain cap that's needed for your tank. They have a rubbish falloff. Everyone tanks EM/Thermal, because they armour tank with EANMs. Projectiles have a good long falloff, can do variable damage types, and use no cap to fire. Autocannons have really minimal fittings. They suck because their paper dps is low. They have poor tracking, so your 'optimal' isn't. They actually have a poor optimal too. In order to use those variable damage types they lose dps. Hybrids cover both the highest (theoretical) dps guns, and the longest range ones. They suck because: They use lots of cap (more than lasers in some situations) You have to get really close to use blasters, and so you have to use mwds. At blaster optimals your tracking isn't very good (low range = relatively higher transverse) Missiles have variable damage types. They are long range. They use no cap. They have options for FoF variants. They suck because: They have to cover the distance, so the target is gone before they hit. They do a poor 'paper' DPS. Explosion radius means even a stationary 'ceptor takes minimal amounts of damage (where a turret would be able to pop it) Explosion velocity means a 'ceptor mwding directly towards you won't die, where a turret will just pop it. Drones come in different damage types. They do a reasonable amount of damage (especially with a ship bonus). They are 'fire and forget' in the sense that even whilst jammed drones carry on doing their thing. They use no cap. You can get EW drones instead. They suck because: They can be blown up. You don't carry enough to have coverage of all the damage types (except in a few unusual cases). They have to fly to the target. They're stupid. They're stupid. (OK, technically it's the same one twice, but it's worth repeating) one of the best posts so far :) here have a cookie :D
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.29 07:37:00 - [30] Originally by: James Lyrus If a dev posts a dps graph, as you have seen from your thread, you get a whole load of forum ninjas beating the drum about their own special interest, and how 'it sucks'. This gets magnified by the presence of that little yellow bar. Just to summarise: Lasers do good tracking and optimal. They do quite a lot of damage. They use no ammo. They can swap ammo instantly. They suck because: They drain cap that's needed for your tank. They have a rubbish falloff. Everyone tanks EM/Thermal, because they armour tank with EANMs. Projectiles have a good long falloff, can do variable damage types, and use no cap to fire. Autocannons have really minimal fittings. They suck because their paper dps is low. They have poor tracking, so your 'optimal' isn't. They actually have a poor optimal too. In order to use those variable damage types they lose dps. Hybrids cover both the highest (theoretical) dps guns, and the longest range ones. They suck because: They use lots of cap (more than lasers in some situations) You have to get really close to use blasters, and so you have to use mwds. At blaster optimals your tracking isn't very good (low range = relatively higher transverse) Missiles have variable damage types. They are long range. They use no cap. They have options for FoF variants. They suck because: They have to cover the distance, so the target is gone before they hit. They do a poor 'paper' DPS. Explosion radius means even a stationary 'ceptor takes minimal amounts of damage (where a turret would be able to pop it) Explosion velocity means a 'ceptor mwding directly towards you won't die, where a turret will just pop it. Drones come in different damage types. They do a reasonable amount of damage (especially with a ship bonus). They are 'fire and forget' in the sense that even whilst jammed drones carry on doing their thing. They use no cap. You can get EW drones instead. They suck because: They can be blown up. You don't carry enough to have coverage of all the damage types (except in a few unusual cases). They have to fly to the target. They're stupid. They're stupid. (OK, technically it's the same one twice, but it's worth repeating) and thats different than now how...? Hey, i'd rather see it upfront from the devs as opposed to ppl having to make their own. (atleast base stats w/ generic fits) might make them think things twice (or in their case, probly for the 15th - 16th time) before they finalize a stat. either way, its just good to know what your working with. Thanks for the link slothe ^^ , and yeah, i shoulda known better than to come here for it! but... so... many... forums... so... bored.. at work......

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