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TIme for LP to go away: introducing Shares

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Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 868	Posted - 2015.06.28 15:25:15 - [1] - Quote The biggest issue with LP is that it is a boring game mechanic that can be very easily improved upon. The easiest way to improve upon LP is to allow LPs to be affected by the free market. In other words: let the people set the price and exchange rate of the LPs. Let us buy, sell, trade, scam, and manipulate these items in a true Eve fashion. The change: Instead of earning LP you earn an equivalent number of share vouchers. Share vouchers can be traded in at the "Share Buy Back" Store for physical shares (shares appear as an item in your hangar), and those physical shares can be traded on the market or redeemed in the Share Buy Back Store for faction items. Here is how it would work: Do mission. Collect mission payout of 1 mil isk and 3000 share vouchers. Trade share vouchers into the Share Buy Back Store for [Corp Name] Shares. [Corp Name] Shares is a physical item that will appear in your hangar with a very small volume incase you want to haul them to another station to put on the market. Trade [Corp Name] Shares for faction items. OR Put the [Corp Name] Shares on the market. Or scam with them. Or buy them all and manipulate the price. Or whatever creative ideas you have. See how simple that is? Benefits: Shares will increase the isk sink they already are in game. Shares increase the amount of meaningful dynamic gameplay in Eve. The players get to set the price of shares. We also get to set the exchange rate of shares. So no more CCP set "Trade 1 CONCORD LP for .8 of [Corp Name] LP." I expect some ALODs from haulers full of shares. Who doesn't love ALODs? Negatives: None. Nothing but gains. (How lovely is that?) Expected FAQ: Q: But LP are a reward for Loyalty! The idea is that only those loyal to the corporation can get their faction items. A: LP is not a reward for loyalty. LP is a number with a name. If LP were a reward for loyalty your gameplay would change as the amount of LP you had earned went up. In other words, the more LP you earn the more benefits or bonuses you would unlock. You see the loyalty benefit you get comes in standings. Standings lower taxes, mineral refinery taxes, and if you get them high enough will give you faction ship BPCs. Standings are a reward for loyalty. LPs are not. Q: LP are already an isk sink. How will this increase the isk sink? A: Great question! By simply adding shares to the market the increase in transaction taxes will be in increased isk sink. I know I have several hundred thousand LP stored, unused, in my wallet in game. I imagine there are hundreds of millions (or even billions) of LP stored, unused, in wallets across New Eden. Shares will only be an isk sink if redeemed or put on the market. By allowing shares to be market tradeable we increase the probability of those shares leaving wallets and becoming an isk sink. That will be a net increase in isk sinks. Q: you mentioned the idea of a player set exchange rate. How does that work? A: You get a share. That share sells for 1500 isk. You sell that share and buy a share that costs 1200 isk. You just traded your share for 1.25 of the other share. As prices fluctuate the exchange rate will also change. The important thing is we set the exchange rate, not CCP. More to come as people post!
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 868	Posted - 2015.06.28 15:25:25 - [2] - Quote reserved.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo The Happy Meal 832	Posted - 2015.06.28 15:34:28 - [3] - Quote LP as an item that can be traded on the market? If so it's been proposed before. Sounds interesting on the surface, I'm inclined to say sure. There are all our dominion Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Iain Cariaba 1562	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:09:04 - [4] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Earning LP takes too long!!! I have (credit card to buy PLEX/nullbear alt farming isk) so let me buy renamed LP "vouchers" off market. Redundant. Anything that can be purchased with LP can already be purchased on the market. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Will troll for a t-shirt.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 868	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:30:49 - [5] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Redundant. Anything that can be purchased with LP can already be purchased on the market. If you are are going to quote me you need to actually quote what I said. Not put words in my mouth because you are utterly incapable of arguing a point eloquently. Also, thank you for making it painfully clear that you didn't actually read anything beyond the title. If you had you would have realized that I have ground out tens of millions of LP and have hundreds of thousands of LP left in my wallet. Despite you making yourself look completely and utterly foolish I will counter your point: Yes, you can buy most every item off the market. That doesn't mean that every play style likes buying the items off the market. Some people have no interest in grinding out missions to earn Shares. Market traders would rather have another avenue to market trade in. Heck they may even realize that at the price the shares are selling at will allow them to buy shares, exchange the shares for the item, and sell the item for a profit. The free market wins again! An industrialist who has no PvE skills would rather buy CONCORD Shares off the market, trade the shares in for meta capital module BPCs, and make and sell those modules. There are even mission runners who would rather sell the Shares than buy a bunch items, babysit the market orders, and finally buy what they need after the items sell. By changing LP into shares it allows people easier access to the parts of the game they want to play in, while eliminating a part they may have zero interest in.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2932	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:32:01 - [6] - Quote No to trading LPs they are called Loyalty for a reason. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
James Baboli Novablasters 937	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:32:38 - [7] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Aliventi wrote: Earning LP takes too long!!! I have (credit card to buy PLEX/nullbear alt farming isk) so let me buy renamed LP "vouchers" off market. Redundant. Anything that can be purchased with LP can already be purchased on the market. Not redundant. Lets you get rid of those last few LP from a corp you are done missioning for, or sell concord LP more directly (though this will nuke concord LP values if nothing else is done for it) or any of a number of other ways to offload the risk and profit to someone who is more specialized at making a profit on LP. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2932	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:32:53 - [8] - Quote No to trading LPs they are called Loyalty for a reason. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 868	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:34:05 - [9] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: No to trading LPs they are called Loyalty for a reason. Thank you for not reading the first question of the FAQ. I will post it here for your reading convenience. Quote: Q: But LP are a reward for Loyalty! The idea is that only those loyal to the corporation can get their faction items. A: LP is not a reward for loyalty. LP is a number with a name. If LP were a reward for loyalty your gameplay would change as the amount of LP you had earned went up. In other words, the more LP you earn the more benefits or bonuses you would unlock. You see the loyalty benefit you get comes in standings. Standings lower taxes, mineral refinery taxes, and if you get them high enough will give you faction ship BPCs. Standings are a reward for loyalty. LPs are not.
James Baboli Novablasters 937	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:34:48 - [10] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: No to trading LPs they are called Loyalty for a reason. Lore =! gameplay. Loyalty in FW makes sense. Loyalty to some navies makes sense. But loyalty to Genolution corp? wat? Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp

Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2932	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:44:25 - [11] - Quote An James Baboli wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: No to trading LPs they are called Loyalty for a reason. Lore =! gameplay. Loyalty in FW makes sense. Loyalty to some navies makes sense. But loyalty to Genolution corp? wat? I shop at the same food store all the time. I have gotten to know the managers and employees and as a result I can make offers on different products because they know I am a loyal customer I will be back still and buy other products. so yes there can be loyalty to a corporation Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Lugh Crow-Slave 1150	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:58:05 - [12] - Quote Aliventi wrote: The biggest issue with LP is that it is a boring game mechanic that can be very easily improved upon. The easiest way to improve upon LP is to allow LPs to be affected by the free market. In other words: let the people set the price and exchange rate of the LPs. Let us buy, sell, trade, scam, and manipulate these items in a true Eve fashion. all of this is already done with LP Quote: Benefits: Shares will increase the isk sink they already are in game. how Quote: Shares increase the amount of meaningful dynamic gameplay in Eve. you mean i can now put all my lp from all my alts onto one character making it easier for me to grind LP? Quote: The players get to set the price of shares. We also get to set the exchange rate of shares. So no more CCP set "Trade 1 CONCORD LP for .8 of [Corp Name] LP." players already decide how much an LP is worth based on the items you can get with the LP. Quote: Negatives: None. Nothing but gains. (How lovely is that?) what about the dev time needed to implement or how i can now run missions with as many alts as i wish and get to put all the lp onto one character? Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 868	Posted - 2015.06.28 16:58:54 - [13] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: An James Baboli wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: No to trading LPs they are called Loyalty for a reason. Lore =! gameplay. Loyalty in FW makes sense. Loyalty to some navies makes sense. But loyalty to Genolution corp? wat? I shop at the same food store all the time. I have gotten to know the managers and employees and as a result I can make offers on different products because they know I am a loyal customer I will be back still and buy other products. so yes there can be loyalty to a corporation The loyalty you speak of is taken care of in game by standings, not LPs. You have better standings allowing you to pay less taxes and such.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1185	Posted - 2015.06.28 17:07:28 - [14] - Quote Loyalty Points are just a form of currency - they are company scrip. Just like coal companies used to pay coal miners, with the intent of keeping them dependent on the coal company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip The idea makes perfect sense from the point of view of the Corporations and from CCP as a developer. Accept that, and move on. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3750	Posted - 2015.06.28 17:07:29 - [15] - Quote If LP becomes destructible, it will lead to inflation in the market for faction items. I'd rather see them stay cheap. Oh god.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 868	Posted - 2015.06.28 17:13:23 - [16] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Snip I had to get rid of all your quotes. The forums were throwing a fit. I will answer your questions in order: None of those things truly appear in game. In order to buy or sell LP in-game you have a trust based system of the seller purcahsing the item from the store, then contracting it to the buyer. While this works, I can't physically own that LP. I can't go and buy 50k LP from 6 players and the purchase a 300k LP item. I have to find someone that already has 300k LP and is willing to sell. While yes there is a way, is is a very inefficient way that will be vastly improved upon by shares. I don't quite understand how moving LP from one character to another makes grinding LP easier. The transfer of LP should have no affect on the ease of grinding LP. Players only kind of decide how much an LP is worth. Right now the way it works is players buy items that make their LP have a price. For example if you buy X implant it will give the LP you spent Y value. You didn't really dictate the price. You had a price in mind, the item valued your LP higher than that price, therefore you bought it. I couldn't quote you a price for any of the LP in game because there isn't a Eve wide, or region wide, value for that LP. I could only give you a ball park. I can't tell you CONCORD LP is worth 1267.98 isk/LP. I could tell you it is between 1100-1300 isk/LP. That exactness is what Shares on the market will give us. Dev time isn't a negative. Dev time will always be spent. TBH this shouldn't take terribly long to implement. There is nothing wrong with you running missions on 25 characters and shifting the LP to a single character. No LP was created or destroyed.
Nicola Romanoff Quantum Innovations Limited 24	Posted - 2015.06.28 17:21:10 - [17] - Quote I would liek to have the ability to delete LP that you dont want. Ill admit it may be a little OCD but when I look at my LP for various corps there are some for places I may never do missions for again, either allow us to delete them or have something really cheap (for 1LP) in a store so we can get rid of them that way.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 869	Posted - 2015.06.28 17:25:50 - [18] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Loyalty Points are just a form of currency - they are company scrip. Just like coal companies used to pay coal miners, with the intent of keeping them dependent on the coal company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip The idea makes perfect sense from the point of view of the Corporations and from CCP as a developer. Accept that, and move on. Absolutely not. I refuse to accept that this is the best way to handle additional mission rewards that create an isk sink. The benefits of the Share system are incredible when compared to the LP system. It opens up dozens of avenues for players to expand their gameplay potential. It makes the Eve economy that much more efficient. It will also increase isk sinks in game. It is nothing but a win for Eve. Riot Girl wrote: If LP becomes destructible, it will lead to inflation in the market for faction items. I'd rather see them stay cheap. I predict the exact opposite will happen. Right now I have little doubt that there are billions of LP stored in wallets all over Eve. All of that sat on LP will depress prices until it consumed. On top of that the buying and selling of Shares will likely lower the price of each Share because the market will find an equilibrium between supply and demand. If too many shares are produced prices will fall. If too few shares are produced then the price will rise and missions runners will likely shift to those missions because they pay out more. Which in turn will create more shares and lower the share price. I doubt faction item prices will rise. Usually when the free markets get their fingers in something prices fall. Nicola Romanoff wrote: The ability to delete LP that you dont want. Ill admit it may be a little OCD but when I look at my LP for various corps there are some for places I may never do missions for again, either allow us to delete them or have something really cheap (for 1LP) in a store so we can get rid of them that way. Shares will grant you this ability. Trade those last few share vouchers for physical shares, sell the physical shares. You win.
Nicola Romanoff Quantum Innovations Limited 24	Posted - 2015.06.28 17:35:41 - [19] - Quote Posted in wrong thread, apologies
Iain Cariaba 1563	Posted - 2015.06.28 18:34:33 - [20] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: Redundant. Anything that can be purchased with LP can already be purchased on the market. If you are are going to quote me you need to actually quote what I said. Not put words in my mouth because you are utterly incapable of arguing a point eloquently. Also, thank you for making it painfully clear that you didn't actually read anything beyond the title. If you had you would have realized that I have ground out tens of millions of LP and have hundreds of thousands of LP left in my wallet. Despite you making yourself look completely and utterly foolish I will counter your point: Yes, you can buy most every item off the market. That doesn't mean that every play style likes buying the items off the market. Some people have no interest in grinding out missions to earn Shares. Market traders would rather have another avenue to market trade in. Heck they may even realize that at the price the shares are selling at will allow them to buy shares, exchange the shares for the item, and sell the item for a profit. The free market wins again! An industrialist who has no PvE skills would rather buy CONCORD Shares off the market, trade the shares in for meta capital module BPCs, and make and sell those modules. There are even mission runners who would rather sell the Shares than buy a bunch items, babysit the market orders, and finally buy what they need after the items sell. By changing LP into shares it allows people easier access to the parts of the game they want to play in, while eliminating a part they may have zero interest in. Read this, it might help you not look like an idiot next time you get up on your soapbox. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Will troll for a t-shirt.

Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 869	Posted - 2015.06.28 18:47:00 - [21] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Read this, it might help you not look like an idiot next time you get up on your soapbox. Maybe you should read that definition and realize that you shouldn't attempt to pass off your paraphrasing as a quote from me. The easiest way to do that, I know this might be hard for you, is to not put it in quote tags with my name on it. After all, quote tags are called quote tags for a reason. Also in order to restate my ideas for your paraphrasing you shouldn't add in random words and ideas that were not present in the original. Like... Oh idk... pretty much all of your sad attempt at paraphrase. I am a nice guy so I will help you out: nowhere did I claim that earning LP took too long, nor that I wanted to PLEX or use a PvE alt to buy shares. In fact, if you did read my post, you would probably realize that I don't want to buy shares, but sell shares that have accumulated in my wallet.
Iain Cariaba 1563	Posted - 2015.06.28 19:08:20 - [22] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: Read this, it might help you not look like an idiot next time you get up on your soapbox. Maybe you should read that definition and realize that you shouldn't attempt to pass off your paraphrasing as a quote from me. The easiest way to do that, I know this might be hard for you, is to not put it in quote tags with my name on it. After all, quote tags are called quote tags for a reason. Also in order to restate my ideas for your paraphrasing you shouldn't add in random words and ideas that were not present in the original. Like... Oh idk... pretty much all of your sad attempt at paraphrase. I am a nice guy so I will help you out: nowhere did I claim that earning LP took too long, nor that I wanted to PLEX or use a PvE alt to buy shares. In fact, if you did read my post, you would probably realize that I don't want to buy shares, but sell shares that have accumulated in my wallet. Wow, dude, that's a lot of butthurt there. Maybe you shouldn't be posting at all if you're going to fly off in a rage that easily. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Will troll for a t-shirt.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 869	Posted - 2015.06.28 19:30:49 - [23] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Wow, dude, that's a lot of butthurt there. Maybe you shouldn't be posting at all if you're going to fly off in a rage that easily. Look I get it. You are trying to shiptoast. Trying to be all trolling cool. Trying to get a reaction. You think it's fun and makes you look smart. Here is a tip from a pro to a noob: If you are going to use a definition to try and prove you are right you need to actually follow that definition. If you are going to paraphrase you actually need to paraphrase. If you are going to claim butthurt and rage there actually needs to be butthurt and rage. I was born and raised in the shiptoasting lands of FHC. You aren't getting a rise out of me. Frankly your attempts are boring and childish. If you really want to do this forum shiptoasting/trolling thing right you need to be able to argue and do it eloquently. I would advise you go read some of baltec1's work. He is master at what you are trying to do.
James Baboli Novablasters 940	Posted - 2015.06.28 19:52:23 - [24] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: Wow, dude, that's a lot of butthurt there. Maybe you shouldn't be posting at all if you're going to fly off in a rage that easily. Look I get it. You are trying to shiptoast. Trying to be all trolling cool. Trying to get a reaction. You think it's fun and makes you look smart. Here is a tip from a pro to a noob: If you are going to use a definition to try and prove you are right you need to actually follow that definition. If you are going to paraphrase you actually need to paraphrase. If you are going to claim butthurt and rage there actually needs to be butthurt and rage. I was born and raised in the shiptoasting lands of FHC. You aren't getting a rise out of me. Frankly your attempts are boring and childish. If you really want to do this forum shiptoasting/trolling thing right you need to be able to argue and do it eloquently. I would advise you go read some of baltec1's work. He is master at what you are trying to do. Confirming Baltech1 is a master shiptoaster, who also has good ideas, and sprinkles enough analysis into even his shiptoasting that you need to look closely to tell if its shiptoasting or serious before engaging, as he seems able to do both off the same lure. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli Novablasters 941	Posted - 2015.06.28 19:57:56 - [25] - Quote Back to the OP though. Cautiously support this change, as it would nuke my own assets if it was implemented without other changes to give CONCORD vouchers something valuable inside the concord store and the ability to convert removed. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Iain Cariaba 1563	Posted - 2015.06.28 20:16:01 - [26] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: Wow, dude, that's a lot of butthurt there. Maybe you shouldn't be posting at all if you're going to fly off in a rage that easily. Look I get it. You are trying to shiptoast. Trying to be all trolling cool. Trying to get a reaction. You think it's fun and makes you look smart. Here is a tip from a pro to a noob: If you are going to use a definition to try and prove you are right you need to actually follow that definition. If you are going to paraphrase you actually need to paraphrase. If you are going to claim butthurt and rage there actually needs to be butthurt and rage. I was born and raised in the shiptoasting lands of FHC. You aren't getting a rise out of me. Frankly your attempts are boring and childish. If you really want to do this forum shiptoasting/trolling thing right you need to be able to argue and do it eloquently. I would advise you go read some of baltec1's work. He is master at what you are trying to do. golf claps noun 1. a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness; rewording. I call it as I see it, and I reworded what you said as I saw it. That you're unhappy with how I reworded it is irrelevant to the fact that it is still paraphrasing. As for the butthurt and rage, how many posts have you made so far going off on me because I hurt your feelings? Seems like a bit of an overreaction for my being "boring and childish." But yeah, you stay up in that ivory tower and keep thinking you're better than me for reasons that are utterly meaningless to anyone else. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Will troll for a t-shirt.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 870	Posted - 2015.06.28 20:22:08 - [27] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Back to the OP though. Cautiously support this change, as it would nuke my own assets if it was implemented without other changes to give CONCORD vouchers something valuable inside the concord store and the ability to convert removed. Alright. Part of this is that CCP will need to spend time throughout their module tiericide to add new and unique faction items and skins to the LP stores. There is simply going to be no stabilizing force like valuable items in the store. It will take a fair bit of work for CCP to create and add enough useful items. I have no doubt that they can do it.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode ISD Community Communications Liaisons 6012	Posted - 2015.06.28 20:49:39 - [28] - Quote Removed some off topic posts. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16590	Posted - 2015.06.28 21:24:26 - [29] - Quote Aliventi's idea is god damb brilliant. Apart from increasing liquidity in the "LP" market, it also introduces significant gameplay opportunities for arbitrage and trading - a long neglected sector of the playerbase. There are also some obvious game design 'easy wins' implicit in the principle, like driving group activity towards a common goal, allowing corp taxation of mission income and adding very large ticket items to the loyalty stores. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 872	Posted - 2015.06.28 21:38:14 - [30] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Aliventi's idea is god damb brilliant. Apart from increasing liquidity in the "LP" market, it also introduces significant gameplay opportunities for arbitrage and trading - a long neglected sector of the playerbase. There are also some obvious game design 'easy wins' implicit in the principle, like driving group activity towards a common goal, allowing corp taxation of mission income and adding very large ticket items to the loyalty stores. I didn't even think about that. A lot of groups have been wanting to tax LP for a while now. I do very much like the idea of very large ticket items being added to the LP store.

elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 702	Posted - 2015.06.28 23:26:43 - [31] - Quote I hate market traders. They are the only capsuleers that you cannot shoot for what they are doing. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Zepheros Naeonis TinklePee 47	Posted - 2015.06.28 23:59:59 - [32] - Quote elitatwo wrote: I hate market traders. They are the only capsuleers that you cannot shoot for what they are doing. You just don't have the patience to catch them when they are vulnerable.
Arla Sarain 526	Posted - 2015.06.29 00:36:26 - [33] - Quote ... Im not commercially aware, but for the sakes of furthering the discussion how is this different from the current LP, excluding the ability to transfer LP ownership (trading). LP value is already established and manipulated by players. Because there are plenty of items that are shared between LP stores, the value of one corps LP can rise and fall as the saturation of other corps LP goes up or down (for ex. FW LP affecting the LP/isk ratio of other stores by saturating the market with common items). Quote: Trade [Corp Name] Shares for faction items. OR You already do that with LP, sure you commit assets in some cases (liquid isk and/or items of value, like preceding or meta module variants), but generally its exactly what you do with LP. Quote: Put the [Corp Name] Shares on the market. Or scam with them. Or buy them all and manipulate the price. Or whatever creative ideas you have. So all this does is take out a step - under the current system to convert LP into ISK you must resell the items. With the new step you directly sell the new LP (like you said its just a number with a name, vouchers/shares wouldn't be any different, whether they are an item or not, the only difference remains is that they are tradable). Specifically, it reduces the steps taken for the mission runner/LP obtainer, and the person at the end of the transaction actually gains a step? I mean he now has to actually take the LP he bought and go to the store and buy his faction items there. Quote: See how simple that is? I see that's it's more complicated actually. Manipulating the value of whatever a corp spews out as mission/loyalty reward is already possible, either by directly affecting LP value through activities relating to other corps, or by manipulating the price of the items. So, TL;DR - this is just tradable LP? In either case I do not see the motivation to trade stock. Seems like a nuisance when going to back to the number of steps changed. All I see is it's going to be easier to jump on the bandwagon of a corps high value (not actually having to do missions to do obtain vouchers, just buying low in the market, trading for faction items, selling high). So, more opportunities to make money by exploiting other peoples laziness, specifically, people who can't be arsed to go through the step of finding out which items are better to trade. With this possibility opening up because of the possibility to just cash in on demand. At best.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 872	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:03:07 - [34] - Quote You are correct on many of your points: In essence it is tradeable LP. You are correct in the realization that Shares have every bit of functionality that LP currently does. But shares go far beyond what LP does. What shares open up are choices. Right now the only way to turn your LP into isk is to buy an item and sell it. You correctly pointed out some choices that it adds to the game: mission runners who don't care about maxing their isk/share will just sell them. A market trader may realize they can make a bunch of isk by buying shares, turning them into items, and selling them. Some others choices are an industrialist who doesn't care for mission running can now quickly buy millions of shares to buy blueprints to build and sell faction items. A speculator might predict that CCP is going to buff or add a faction item and buy shares knowing the price will go up. A coalition may want to use a faction item and they slowly buy tens of millions of shares so they can purchase the faction item in bulk cheaper than otherwise. And on and on.... The tl;dr is that this is market tradeable LP. But by simply adding LP to the market in the form of physical Shares, CCP will add dozens, or even hundreds, of potential options to players. The only limit is your imagination. And Eve players have some pretty wild imaginations.
Maldiro Selkurk CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X 250	Posted - 2015.06.30 01:20:15 - [35] - Quote when you crack all the mirriors and blow away the smoke all this does is take a straightforward game mechanic and make it obtuse. -1 Which means CONGRATULATIONS! CCP lives for this kind of obtuse crap so i fully expect them to implement it in the next week or so. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 873	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:23:30 - [36] - Quote Maldiro Selkurk wrote: when you crack all the mirriors and blow away the smoke all this does is take a straightforward game mechanic and make it obtuse. -1 Which means CONGRATULATIONS! CCP lives for this kind of obtuse crap so i fully expect them to implement it in the next week or so. What makes it obtuse? It is literally the same thing as before just with an additional step of converting the Share vouchers into a physical item. In other words explain how this is obtuse: step 1: Do mission. Get reward. Step 2: Turn reward from a number in your wallet into physical item. Step 3: Trade in the physical item for a faction item or sell the physical item on the market.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2249	Posted - 2015.06.30 04:06:36 - [37] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: No to trading LPs they are called Loyalty for a reason. Thank you for not reading the first question of the FAQ. I will post it here for your reading convenience. Simply because you assert your 'answer' does not make someone else's opinion that LP should remain character bound and remain a loyalty item invalid It is equally correct for LP to not be trade-able because they do represent loyalty rewards for a particular person rather than shares. Not to mention calling them shares would be a misnomer as shares indicate a say in what a company does, not the ability to buy specialised products. All in all, I like LP exactly as they are now in mechanics. I might wish that LP weren't so strictly corp bound but more directly associated with factions, so you work for a Caldari corp, you get Caldari LP that you may then spend on any Caldari Corp that you have good standings with, so you get the combination effect of Loyalty to Caldari combined with standings with the corp. But that is simply to avoid micromanaging or always grinding the same agent.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1203	Posted - 2015.06.30 08:53:19 - [38] - Quote Quote: Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go I owe my soul to the company store - Merle Travis, Sixteen Tons That is Loyalty Points in a nutshell. Rather than paying you in ISK, which is readily transferable and accepted everywhere, Eve corporations pay out a large percentage of their rewards in scrip, which is redeemable only at the company store. Turning LP into stock shares, or some other liquid asset, completely undercuts the whole reason that these huge powerful corporations have to issue those Loyalty Points. The whole point is to pay you non-taxable income which is hard to transfer, hard to aggregate, and hard to liquidate. Why would Eve corporations want to give capsuleers, who are mere freelance contractors, shares in the company? Or let Demi-gods have even more power and autonomy? Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1316	Posted - 2015.06.30 09:13:42 - [39] - Quote My usual response to any LP/loyalty trading: They are loyalty points for service to a given corp, using the LP brings faction items into the game. If you end up with odd loyalty points hey ho, that's how it goes. They only change I would support is to bring in 'Letter of Recommendation' type transactions where LP in a corp can be pushed upwards to the overall faction level. This allows aggregation of the random small LP but still only allows them to be used to bring faction gear into the game.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16612	Posted - 2015.06.30 11:03:02 - [40] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: My usual response to any LP/loyalty trading: They are loyalty points for service to a given corp, using the LP brings faction items into the game. If you end up with odd loyalty points hey ho, that's how it goes. They only change I would support is to bring in 'Letter of Recommendation' type transactions where LP in a corp can be pushed upwards to the overall faction level. This allows aggregation of the random small LP but still only allows them to be used to bring faction gear into the game. "We shouldn't changes things because they are as they are" isn't a very convincing argument. How about saying something useful along the lines of "This change would cause problems x, y z" or "This change won't chieve what you say it does because of reason A and circumstance B" instead of making a worthless objection on the basis of pedantry about the name of a mechanic when the very first paragraph of the proposal is to change that same? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"

Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1316	Posted - 2015.06.30 11:25:52 - [41] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: My usual response to any LP/loyalty trading: They are loyalty points for service to a given corp, using the LP brings faction items into the game. If you end up with odd loyalty points hey ho, that's how it goes. They only change I would support is to bring in 'Letter of Recommendation' type transactions where LP in a corp can be pushed upwards to the overall faction level. This allows aggregation of the random small LP but still only allows them to be used to bring faction gear into the game. "We shouldn't changes things because they are as they are" isn't a very convincing argument. How about saying something useful along the lines of "This change would cause problems x, y z" or "This change won't achieve what you say it does because of reason A and circumstance B" instead of making a worthless objection on the basis of pedantry about the name of a mechanic when the very first paragraph of the proposal is to change that same name? Well I enjoy the RPG side of the game as much as the gameplay so to me the lore involved is a useful part of the game. I like the fact that it is based on loyalty to a given corp and that it is not transferable on that basis. So pointing out that I'm fine with the name and mechanic on the RPG basis is valid rather than being pedantic. You'll also notice that second paragraph is actually a suggestion to help with the regular complaint about having dribs and drabs of LP lay around. ED: I'm also against being able to trade LP as I've previously stated in many other threads. Changing LP to share vouchers doesn't mean suddenly I'm fine with trading LP under a different name.
Syrias Bizniz KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 406	Posted - 2015.06.30 12:13:32 - [42] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: things. For your roleplay needs : How about your standing is the reward for loyalty, and the higher it is, the better items you may purchase? Like, lpstore items get separated into 5 groups, just like agents do, and only with standings high enough to allow you l5 missions you can purchase tier 5 items? Of course this would require a major lpstore overhaul, but in my opinion this is overdue anyways. +1 to tradable lp
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1318	Posted - 2015.06.30 12:41:10 - [43] - Quote Syrias Bizniz wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: things. For your roleplay needs : How about your standing is the reward for loyalty, and the higher it is, the better items you may purchase? Like, lpstore items get separated into 5 groups, just like agents do, and only with standings high enough to allow you l5 missions you can purchase tier 5 items? Of course this would require a major lpstore overhaul, but in my opinion this is overdue anyways. +1 to tradable lp An overhaul of the LP store probably is overdue. I like the current mechanic and think that trading LP would be bad. It would allow someone to simply trade all their LP to whichever station faction is closest so that they can buy stuff there. Less pilots in space and more simplification for no reason (at least people have to travel somewhere to go redeem their LP). It would also allow FW folks to farm on whatever is the best LP source currently and freely trade them for whatever item they want. This would allow (as an extreme example) Diana Kim to farm LP in Caldari space but trade it all for Gallente stuff because it sells better. It makes no sense. I'd prefer more of the items in the LP stores to be available as BPC's too to boost industry and PI. Keep the finished items too maybe but balance it so that the BPC will earn you more profit per run but requires more effort/indy skills.
Syrias Bizniz KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 406	Posted - 2015.06.30 13:09:18 - [44] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Syrias Bizniz wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: things. For your roleplay needs : How about your standing is the reward for loyalty, and the higher it is, the better items you may purchase? Like, lpstore items get separated into 5 groups, just like agents do, and only with standings high enough to allow you l5 missions you can purchase tier 5 items? Of course this would require a major lpstore overhaul, but in my opinion this is overdue anyways. +1 to tradable lp An overhaul of the LP store probably is overdue. I like the current mechanic and think that trading LP would be bad. It would allow someone to simply trade all their LP to whichever station faction is closest so that they can buy stuff there. Less pilots in space and more simplification for no reason (at least people have to travel somewhere to go redeem their LP). It would also allow FW folks to farm on whatever is the best LP source currently and freely trade them for whatever item they want. This would allow (as an extreme example) Diana Kim to farm LP in Caldari space but trade it all for Gallente stuff because it sells better. It makes no sense. I'd prefer more of the items in the LP stores to be available as BPC's too to boost industry and PI. Keep the finished items too maybe but balance it so that the BPC will earn you more profit per run but requires more effort/indy skills. Aaah , you got the whole trade concept misunderstood. Of course all the lp would still be attached to the very same Corp they were obtained from! You could go to the market and sell your kaalakiotalp for isk if someone wants to buy them, or purchaselp of a specific corp for isk . Not farm for corp a, turn in at corp b!
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1318	Posted - 2015.06.30 13:37:45 - [45] - Quote Syrias Bizniz wrote: Aaah , you got the whole trade concept misunderstood. Of course all the lp would still be attached to the very same Corp they were obtained from! You could go to the market and sell your kaalakiotalp for isk if someone wants to buy them, or purchaselp of a specific corp for isk . Not farm for corp a, turn in at corp b! OK so this just means LP=ISK. This would allow someone like Diana Kim to sell a ton of caldari navy (or whatever) LP and then buy a load of gallente LP. This seems to be geared towards making it easy to convert LP to isk but this effects the cost of faction items and the trade system. It also means pilots no longer need to go to stations and convert LP into items and then go to another station to sell those items on the market. Taking people out of space, especially people carrying lootable goodies seems counter-EvE.
Syrias Bizniz KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 406	Posted - 2015.06.30 14:15:07 - [46] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Syrias Bizniz wrote: Aaah , you got the whole trade concept misunderstood. Of course all the lp would still be attached to the very same Corp they were obtained from! You could go to the market and sell your kaalakiotalp for isk if someone wants to buy them, or purchaselp of a specific corp for isk . Not farm for corp a, turn in at corp b! OK so this just means LP=ISK. This would allow someone like Diana Kim to sell a ton of caldari navy (or whatever) LP and then buy a load of gallente LP. This seems to be geared towards making it easy to convert LP to isk but this effects the cost of faction items and the trade system. It also means pilots no longer need to go to stations and convert LP into items and then go to another station to sell those items on the market. Taking people out of space, especially people carrying lootable goodies seems counter-EvE. ... are you actually thinking about the things you're writing, or do you just let the words flow out of your fingers through the keyboard and onto the forums? there will still be people hauling faction items. In addition, there will be people hauling share vouchers. If even coupled with shop access through standings, there will be opportunities to make mad isk just because YOU got good standings with the right corp. In fact, this proposed change promotes trade and the flow of (gankable and lootable) goods.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 881	Posted - 2015.06.30 17:49:40 - [47] - Quote I disagree with any form of the share buy back store access being restricted by standing. That would effectively bring this idea back to LP. Shares are designed to remove some of the roadblocks stopping people from accessing a share buy back store due to lack of shares, lack of standings, etc. Not everyone wants to grind missions. If you have no interest in mission running (industrialists, market traders, PvPers, etc.) there should be no reason why you shouldn't get access to the share buy back store. If you wanted to implement some sort of additional loyalty benefit through standings (such as a .25% discount per point of standing or .5% bonus to share payout per point of standings per mission) that would be fine. I am not against you getting additional benefits from your standing with a corp. You just have to make sure they are balanced. Syrias Bizniz is correct that this will increase the supply of gankable goods. If you have a Gallente corp's shares and you want to sell them in Jita you must redeem the shares in a station that corp owns, ship them to Jita, someone buys them, ships them back, then redeems them for faction items, then hauls them back to Jita. So instead of the share being vulnerable once (redeemed to items and sent to JIta) they are vulnerable three times. Also, since there are three trips it will likely increase the number of pilots in space.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16623	Posted - 2015.06.30 18:43:37 - [48] - Quote Aliventi wrote: I disagree with any form of the share buy back store access being restricted by standing. That would effectively bring this idea back to LP. Shares are designed to remove some of the roadblocks stopping people from accessing a share buy back store due to lack of shares, lack of standings, etc. Not everyone wants to grind missions. If you have no interest in mission running (industrialists, market traders, PvPers, etc.) there should be no reason why you shouldn't get access to the share buy back store. If you wanted to implement some sort of additional loyalty benefit through standings (such as a .25% discount per point of standing or .5% bonus to share payout per point of standings per mission) that would be fine. I am not against you getting additional benefits from your standing with a corp. You just have to make sure they are balanced. Syrias Bizniz is correct that this will increase the supply of gankable goods. If you have a Gallente corp's shares and you want to sell them in Jita you must redeem the shares in a station that corp owns, ship them to Jita, someone buys them, ships them back, then redeems them for faction items, then hauls them back to Jita. So instead of the share being vulnerable once (redeemed to items and sent to JIta) they are vulnerable three times. Also, since there are three trips it will likely increase the number of pilots in space. it will also increase the number of high volume purchases. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1319	Posted - 2015.06.30 20:39:17 - [49] - Quote Aliventi wrote: I disagree with any form of the share buy back store access being restricted by standing. That would effectively bring this idea back to LP. Shares are designed to remove some of the roadblocks stopping people from accessing a share buy back store due to lack of shares, lack of standings, etc. Not everyone wants to grind missions. If you have no interest in mission running (industrialists, market traders, PvPers, etc.) there should be no reason why you shouldn't get access to the share buy back store. If you wanted to implement some sort of additional loyalty benefit through standings (such as a .25% discount per point of standing or .5% bonus to share payout per point of standings per mission) that would be fine. I am not against you getting additional benefits from your standing with a corp. You just have to make sure they are balanced. Syrias Bizniz is correct that this will increase the supply of gankable goods. If you have a Gallente corp's shares and you want to sell them in Jita you must redeem the shares in a station that corp owns, ship them to Jita, someone buys them, ships them back, then redeems them for faction items, then hauls them back to Jita. So instead of the share being vulnerable once (redeemed to items and sent to JIta) they are vulnerable three times. Also, since there are three trips it will likely increase the number of pilots in space. And what volume would these shares be? Because unless they have the same volume as the module you would need to move instead then they willeasily be transported in fast cloakies or interceptors. Just how vulnerable would they really be then? Surely this would simply allow another way for large amounts of effective isk to be moved more easily and in fewer trips/more safety?
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 881	Posted - 2015.06.30 21:40:28 - [50] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: And what volume would these shares be? Because unless they have the same volume as the module you would need to move instead then they willeasily be transported in fast cloakies or interceptors. Just how vulnerable would they really be then? Surely this would simply allow another way for large amounts of effective isk to be moved more easily and in fewer trips/more safety? I can point you to any number of ALODs of untanked haulers, interceptors, CovOps, or frigates that thought their speed, cloaking, align time, etc. would save them from being ganked. Some make it. Some don't. Now due to the value of the shares (typically at least 1000isk/share) means every 1000 share will be a million isk. It won't take but a few thousand shares to drop to pay for a cheap gank thrasher, catalyst, or Vexor, etc. So I am not worried at all about the profitability and gank-ability of share carrying ships. I think 10k shares to an m3 would be fine. 1 mil shares would fit in 100m3. Idk how many people want to jam 1 bil isk worth of shares into a ceptor, but if they do I can't wait to read the ALOD.

Ben Ishikela 49	Posted - 2015.07.01 07:52:14 - [51] - Quote I'd like these Shares to appear on the market, while LP stay in game. then after a while, when prices settled reevaluate! Spontaneously i imagine something like this: Reward.......................LP cOst ................. ISK Cost ............... Required Items...................Buy Federation Navy Voucher...1 LP............... 0 ISK.....................................--..........................buy [none].............................. -1 LP.................0 ISK.......................FederationNavyVoucher.....buy yes, negative LP should add LP to your wallet! yes, you could put a resistance to trade velocity in there by raising the ISK Cost. So now that we figured out, that Loyalty and LP is completely different. Id like to propose to you the loyalty-rule on LP-Store-mechanix. Make Standings matter. Although the UI has to be updated, id like to add a new column of required minimum standing. Optional: get better deals with better standing or get rarer/powerfuller items. But i am not sure about this. Whats your thoughts? Reward.......................LP cOst ................. ISK Cost ............... Required Items...................minstanding......Buy Federation Navy Voucher...1 LP............... 0 ISK.....................................--......................................0.0.......x [none].............................. -1 LP.................100 ISK...................FederationNavyVoucher.................1.0........x [none].............................. -1 LP.................20 ISK.....................FederationNavyVoucher.................5.0........x [none].............................. -1 LP.................10 ISK.....................FederationNavyVoucher.................9.0........x Battleship BPC..................N LP..................M ISK..................................--........................................2...........x Battleship BPC..................N LP..................M/2 ISK...............................--........................................9...........x I dont know if that even incentifies interesing gameplay (promotes grinding/etc). Im sure Vouchers do (market pvp)... and standings may... meh, no idea. halp! xD ps: i vote for "1voucher has 0.05m3". This is (at 1000isk/lp) 100m3 per 20.000LP which is 20.000.000ISK. Because then there is a meaningful choice between ceptor or hauler. Add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to shake any op meta or use totaly different gameplay yourself to make it happen! yay :) ....und Local braucht ganz dringend ein Update!
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2939	Posted - 2015.07.01 11:13:56 - [52] - Quote I still have not seen any compelling argument other than "I want tradable LP" which suggests that someone has lots of LP from a corp that either a: has no LP store b: that competes with a FW store and is undervalued. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 882	Posted - 2015.07.01 16:28:11 - [53] - Quote Ben Ishikela wrote: I'd like these Shares to appear on the market, while LP stay in game. then after a while, when prices settled reevaluate! Spontaneously i imagine something like this: Reward.......................LP cOst ................. ISK Cost ............... Required Items...................Buy Federation Navy Voucher...1 LP............... 0 ISK.....................................--..........................buy [none].............................. -1 LP.................0 ISK.......................FederationNavyVoucher.....buy yes, negative LP should add LP to your wallet! yes, you could put a resistance to trade velocity in there by raising the ISK Cost. So now that we figured out, that Loyalty and LP is completely different. Id like to propose to you the loyalty-rule on LP-Store-mechanix. Make Standings matter. Although the UI has to be updated, id like to add a new column of required minimum standing. Optional: get better deals with better standing or get rarer/powerfuller items. But i am not sure about this. Whats your thoughts? Reward.......................LP cOst ................. ISK Cost ............... Required Items...................minstanding......Buy Federation Navy Voucher...1 LP............... 0 ISK.....................................--......................................0.0.......x [none].............................. -1 LP.................100 ISK...................FederationNavyVoucher.................1.0........x [none].............................. -1 LP.................20 ISK.....................FederationNavyVoucher.................5.0........x [none].............................. -1 LP.................10 ISK.....................FederationNavyVoucher.................9.0........x Battleship BPC..................N LP..................M ISK..................................--........................................2...........x Battleship BPC..................N LP..................M/2 ISK...............................--........................................9...........x I dont know if that even incentifies interesing gameplay (promotes grinding/etc). Im sure Vouchers do (market pvp)... and standings may... meh, no idea. halp! xD ps: i vote for "1voucher has 0.05m3". This is (at 1000isk/lp) 100m3 per 20.000LP which is 20.000.000ISK. Because then there is a meaningful choice between ceptor or hauler. While it is an interesting idea, I fully disagree with your idea that any shares bought on the market can be reverse redeemed back into your wallet. This would allow shares to be transported safely without any risk of being ganked. To achieve the same effect as removing them from the economy you could just buy them off the market and let them sit in your hangar. I also disagree with any attempt to restrict the store items behind standings. One of the main design goals of this is to allow people who have no interest in grinding standings or missions running access to the store if they are willing to pay. Putting up walls of standings means we gain nothing over the LP system. I also disagree with making the share volume as large as your recommend. While I agree there is a necessity to make sure that one can't pack tens of billions of isk in shares into a ceptor for travel, very few people are going to gank a ceptor hauling 20 mil isk in shares. I think something more towards a bil isk makes it balanced as a person with more than a million shares can't haul them all in a ceptor, while making it very profitable to gank ceptors hauling a bil isk in shares. Omnathious Deninard wrote: I still have not seen any compelling argument other than "I want tradable LP" which suggests that someone has lots of LP from a corp that competes with a FW store and is undervalued. Then perhaps you should go re-read the reasons for making this change and the many posts of additional benefits this brings to the game that people have posted.
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1547	Posted - 2015.07.01 17:03:53 - [54] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Then perhaps you should go re-read the reasons for making this change and the many posts of additional benefits this brings to the game that people have posted. No downsides, hm? It adds an additional layer of management to the purchase of LP store items. Right now you simply click a button and have the items. Then, you need to make sure to have the shares in an by the LP store accessible hangar, which means potentially you need to move them out of storage cans where you stowed them away so that they do not clutter your hangar. You even potentially need to stow them away in the first place as they are yet another item cluttering your hangar and in order to guarantee safety and not fall for scams. So: added circuitousness and less convenience of use. It adds as well additional effort for comparing prices so that you do not buy shares on the market while existing BPC on the contracts/modules/ships on the market are cheaper. Even more comparison and calculation effort for no gains and just more risk for the sake of more risk. It adds more items people can manipulate just for the sake of it. These share prices would be easy to warp and manipulate, especially of lesser used corps or to coffer in market manipulation profits. Something you listed as upside is a downside at the same time. At the same time, it adds volatility to the market where no volatility is direly necessary. What this creates is just another easy to game system. More ALODs are downsides as well. Just because some people only want to blow up stuff does not remove the fact that there is someone on the receiving end as well, for whom your upside is certainly not so fabulous. In total: More effort, more risk, more vulnerability to system gaming, more volatility, more manipulation for no gains. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 882	Posted - 2015.07.01 17:15:50 - [55] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Aliventi wrote: Then perhaps you should go re-read the reasons for making this change and the many posts of additional benefits this brings to the game that people have posted. No downsides, hm? It adds an additional layer of management to the purchase of LP store items. Right now you simply click a button and have the items. Then, you need to make sure to have the shares in an by the LP store accessible hangar, which means potentially you need to move them out of storage cans where you stowed them away so that they do not clutter your hangar. You even potentially need to stow them away in the first place as they are yet another item cluttering your hangar and in order to guarantee safety and not fall for scams. So: added circuitousness and less convenience of use. It adds as well additional effort for comparing prices so that you do not buy shares on the market while existing BPC on the contracts/modules/ships on the market are cheaper. Even more comparison and calculation effort for no gains and just more risk for the sake of more risk. It adds more items people can manipulate just for the sake of it. These share prices would be easy to warp and manipulate, especially of lesser used corps or to coffer in market manipulation profits. Something you listed as upside is a downside at the same time. At the same time, it adds volatility to the market where no volatility is direly necessary. What this creates is just another easy to game system. More ALODs are downsides as well. Just because some people only want to blow up stuff does not remove the fact that there is someone on the receiving end as well, for whom your upside is certainly not so fabulous. In total: More effort, more risk, more vulnerability to system gaming, more volatility, more manipulation for no gains. So... #1 is 30 seconds of additional effort. Hardly much of a downside. #2. is something you would have done anyway because you want to min/max your isk making. #3 is a benefit. Eve is a sandbox. Eve uses a free market. Don't like it, don't use it. #4. is a benefit. Eve is a sandbox. Choices and consequence. Don't like the consequence, don't make that choice.
Maldiro Selkurk CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X 252	Posted - 2015.07.02 03:22:38 - [56] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Maldiro Selkurk wrote: when you crack all the mirriors and blow away the smoke all this does is take a straightforward game mechanic and make it obtuse. -1 Which means CONGRATULATIONS! CCP lives for this kind of obtuse crap so i fully expect them to implement it in the next week or so. What makes it obtuse? It is literally the same thing as before just with an additional step of converting the Share vouchers into a physical item. ill just copy this here and let you read your own words. And as i menrioned in the final accounting nothing positive comes from it, it is just the current system with added headache and zero upside. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2553	Posted - 2015.07.02 09:30:23 - [57] - Quote I have problems with the arguments for this idea, - Players are already hauling LP items to market hubs which is more content than small liquid LP shares. Consider a player who runs pirate missions, instead of having to haul implants or pirate battleships into jita, he hauls a bunch of shares much more quickly, safer and easier in a T3. - There are already exchange rates when you sell an LP item and you can already get around the grind by buying any LP item of the market with isk. You might have to buy it at a premium price, which is the price of someone elses hard work. - Big group LP items can be acquired by Corp taxing LP. This would in fact be another benefit to being in a player Corp. (not social Corp). - You can scam with LP items. The net result of the op is that liquid LP makes everything easier to trade, making every item that can be bought with it cheaper and the ability to pool between alts. Not much else. I prefer the clunky way we have now. It pushes up premiums and items are harder to haul. The only change id like to see is Corp tax On LP. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Maria Dragoon EVE University Ivy League 42	Posted - 2015.07.02 11:03:00 - [58] - Quote I don't see a reason to not adding this feature. For one main reason. It creates more middle men, more middle men, means more niched jobs, means more roles for people to fill, means more things people can do, means, more places people can get their foot hold in, and start climbing the wall that we call Eve's learning curve.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1138	Posted - 2015.07.02 11:21:44 - [59] - Quote Because it's too much 'work'to manipulate LP let's change the name to shares and tweek the mechanics a bit so that it's much easier to manipulate. No (+1 for trying)
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2943	Posted - 2015.07.02 11:32:53 - [60] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: I still have not seen any compelling argument other than "I want tradable LP" which suggests that someone has lots of LP from a corp that competes with a FW store and is undervalued. Then perhaps you should go re-read the reasons for making this change and the many posts of additional benefits this brings to the game that people have posted. None of those are compelling reasons and most of them are just trying to appeal to the gank crowd saying that if you support this and it gets implemented there will be more gank targets. You have provided no example to support this from someone who currently converts LPs to isk from the LP store. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors

Leoric Firesword Rolling Static Gone Critical 137	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:25:44 - [61] - Quote Aliventi wrote: There are even mission runners who would rather sell the Shares than buy a bunch items, babysit the market orders, and finally buy what they need after the items sell. So I must be missing something in this statement. If a mission runner sells his LP (shares) on the market does he not have to baby sit those just like any other sell order he/she makes? unless of course you mean they'll start selling their LP(shares) to buy orders to which I have to say "riiiiiight" because if they were going to do that then they'd just do that with the items they're selling anyway. I totally get the market trader part, but not the mission runner part. EDIT: How about CCP just add a button "convert to isk" for the average isk/lp ratio of the items (yes I know this will make buying some items completely useless, but if that's the case maybe CCP should look into why that item sucks so bad in the first place.)
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 883	Posted - 2015.07.05 18:32:17 - [62] - Quote After a nice relaxing weekend on the beach y'all were nice enough to post some replies! Maldiro Selkurk wrote: ill just copy this here and let you read your own words. And as i menrioned in the final accounting nothing positive comes from it, it is just the current system with added headache and zero upside. Actually. now that i think about it the value of lp a cross eve is not a constant. I make my lp at a highsec station and have limited value options of things i can buy with it. If you implement this system why risk nullsec lp work when you get equal value lp doing stuff in highsec? i can spare you the anticipation of whether CCP will even sorta entertain this idea, they will not. I think CCP would love this idea. That's why I posted it. The reason why you would earn your LP in nullsec is you can't earn many types of nullsec LP in highsec. There aren't level 4 pirate missions in highsec AFAIK (Aside from SoE). So that LP will be very valuable. If the risk isn't worth the rewards (I am sure it will be. Harder and riskier things to get are typically more valuable) then move on to something that is until the price recovers. The value of LP is not supposed to be constant. Some LP will be more valuable than others. That is why the player set exchange rates are so important. Daichi Yamato wrote: I have problems with the arguments for this idea, - Players are already hauling LP items to market hubs which is more content than small liquid LP shares. Consider a player who runs pirate missions, instead of having to haul implants or pirate battleships into jita, he hauls a bunch of shares much more quickly, safer and easier in a T3. - There are already exchange rates when you sell an LP item and you can already get around the grind by buying any LP item of the market with isk. You might have to buy it at a premium price, which is the price of someone elses hard work. - Big group LP items can be acquired by Corp taxing LP. This would in fact be another benefit to being in a player Corp. (not social Corp). - You can scam with LP items. The net result of the op is that liquid LP makes everything easier to trade, making every item that can be bought with it cheaper and the ability to pool between alts. Not much else. I prefer the clunky way we have now. It pushes up premiums and items are harder to haul. The only change id like to see is Corp tax On LP. I assure you that there is a volume of shares in which you can haul many of them and their size will be far larger than the exchanged share size of implants or modules. They should be harder to haul than modules, but not an unholy pain. There is nothing stopping players from selling their shares at a price that is worth their time. If they don't like the market price they can sell them higher or exchange them for items that give them the isk/share they want. I agree that if CCP implements this they should implement a share tax for corporations. I know it would go a long way to helping FW groups. You can scam with LP items. You can also scam with share items. Or shares themselves. Nothing stopping you from giving someone a choice to make that has consequences they might not like. I can think up dozens of new avenues this gives players to create their own story in Eve. This would be a very valuable addition to Eve is it increases the choices and consequences and brings one of the last segments of the economy to the free market. Maria Dragoon wrote: I don't see a reason to not adding this feature. For one main reason. It creates more middle men, more middle men, means more niched jobs, means more roles for people to fill, means more things people can do, means, more places people can get their foot hold in, and start climbing the wall that we call Eve's learning curve. Well said. Serendipity Lost wrote: Because it's too much 'work'to manipulate LP let's change the name to shares and tweek the mechanics a bit so that it's much easier to manipulate. No (+1 for trying) I probably will never manipulate shares. it sounds like far too much work for me. I make my isk in easier ways. But if someone desires to put in the time and effort to manipulate share then I am eager to give them the opportunity. I hope they are handsomely rewarded and they tell their story to people someday. That is Eve in a nutshell. Omnathious Deninard wrote: None of those are compelling reasons and most of them are just trying to appeal to the gank crowd saying that if you support this and it gets implemented there will be more gank targets. You have provided no example to support this from someone who currently converts LPs to isk from the LP store. Look: you can get ganked now hauling your faction items. This won't change much for ganks. If people haul more than they should they will get ganked. That Eve. This isn't designed to raise the number of gankable targets. It's designed to remove barriers and increase the free market of Eve. I am a person who has in the past converted LP to isk through the LP store. I have also bought LP through items from others. I would prefer dealing with shares. It's hard to find people who have the millions of LP to covert to items I wanted to buy. It's not always easy to sell my LP that I converted to items because I don't want to baby sit orders in Jita. This is an ease of use option. If you don't like it you don't have to use it.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 883	Posted - 2015.07.05 18:37:26 - [63] - Quote Leoric Firesword wrote: Aliventi wrote: There are even mission runners who would rather sell the Shares than buy a bunch items, babysit the market orders, and finally buy what they need after the items sell. So I must be missing something in this statement. If a mission runner sells his LP (shares) on the market does he not have to baby sit those just like any other sell order he/she makes? unless of course you mean they'll start selling their LP(shares) to buy orders to which I have to say "riiiiiight" because if they were going to do that then they'd just do that with the items they're selling anyway. I totally get the market trader part, but not the mission runner part. EDIT: How about CCP just add a button "convert to isk" for the average isk/lp ratio of the items (yes I know this will make buying some items completely useless, but if that's the case maybe CCP should look into why that item sucks so bad in the first place.) The mission runner will have a choice: trade their shares for items that sell for 1500 isk/share, or just sell the shares on market for 1400 isk/share. Is it worth the extra 100 isk/share to deal with market orders and getting .01 isked in JIta, Amarr, Dodixie, Rens or Hek? To some it will be. Those that would rather skip that step and just keep missioning will now have a quick and easy option to convert their shares to isk. Will you use it? Maybe. Maybe not. It's a choice that has consequences. That is what Eve is all about. A direct isk to shares option is bad for the game. LP/shares are designed to be an isk sink (through isk fees for items and market taxes with shares). A direct shares to isk option would be an isk faucet. We need fewer of those in game.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2567	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:23:28 - [64] - Quote Aliventi wrote: There is nothing stopping players from selling their shares at a price that is worth their time. If they don't like the market price they can sell them higher or exchange them for items that give them the isk/share they want. my issue here is that by making it near infinitely dividable you must compete at the share price level for both big items and small. For example, right now i can grind for a few hours and get a +4 implant, and then put that on the market at a crap margin (because the time/work investment is small and everyone can do it). Or, i can grind for days, maybe a couple weeks, and get a epsilon pirate implant with a much higher margin (because there are less people putting this time commitment in). With your proposal the players who are investing small amounts of time will be forcing down the price of shares, and with them the price of the LP items. And thats ALL LP items, including the ones that used to require large time investments. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 884	Posted - 2015.07.06 01:11:09 - [65] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Aliventi wrote: There is nothing stopping players from selling their shares at a price that is worth their time. If they don't like the market price they can sell them higher or exchange them for items that give them the isk/share they want. my issue here is that right now when i grind for big items, i am NOT competing with players grinding for small items. But by making LP sales all the same and near infinitely dividable you must compete at the share price level for both big items and small. For example, right now i can grind for a few hours and get a +4 implant, and then put that on the market at a crap margin (because the time/work investment is small and everyone can do it). Or, i can grind for days, maybe a couple weeks, and get a epsilon pirate implant with a much higher margin (because there are less people putting this time commitment in). With your proposal the players who are investing small amounts of time will be forcing down the price of shares, and with them the price of the LP items. And thats ALL LP items, including the ones that used to require large time investments. A well made point. That is something I hadn't considered. What would you consider fair compensation for the loss of this?
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems 365	Posted - 2015.07.06 06:31:16 - [66] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: An James Baboli wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: No to trading LPs they are called Loyalty for a reason. Lore =! gameplay. Loyalty in FW makes sense. Loyalty to some navies makes sense. But loyalty to Genolution corp? wat? I shop at the same food store all the time. I have gotten to know the managers and employees and as a result I can make offers on different products because they know I am a loyal customer I will be back still and buy other products. so yes there can be loyalty to a corporation You cannot possibly be suggesting that loyalty points in their current form represent anything resembling "loyalty." Because that would be laughable.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems 365	Posted - 2015.07.06 06:36:58 - [67] - Quote Aliventi wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Loyalty Points are just a form of currency - they are company scrip. Just like coal companies used to pay coal miners, with the intent of keeping them dependent on the coal company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip The idea makes perfect sense from the point of view of the Corporations and from CCP as a developer. Accept that, and move on. Absolutely not. I refuse to accept that this is the best way to handle additional mission rewards that create an isk sink. The benefits of the Share system are incredible when compared to the LP system. It opens up dozens of avenues for players to expand their gameplay potential. It makes the Eve economy that much more efficient. It will also increase isk sinks in game. It is nothing but a win for Eve. Riot Girl wrote: If LP becomes destructible, it will lead to inflation in the market for faction items. I'd rather see them stay cheap. I predict the exact opposite will happen. Right now I have little doubt that there are billions of LP stored in wallets all over Eve. All of that sat on LP will depress prices until it consumed. On top of that the buying and selling of Shares will likely lower the price of each Share because the market will find an equilibrium between supply and demand. If too many shares are produced prices will fall. If too few shares are produced then the price will rise and missions runners will likely shift to those missions because they pay out more. Which in turn will create more shares and lower the share price. I doubt faction item prices will rise. Usually when the free markets get their fingers in something prices fall. Nicola Romanoff wrote: The ability to delete LP that you dont want. Ill admit it may be a little OCD but when I look at my LP for various corps there are some for places I may never do missions for again, either allow us to delete them or have something really cheap (for 1LP) in a store so we can get rid of them that way. Shares will grant you this ability. Trade those last few share vouchers for physical shares, sell the physical shares. You win. There is no sound argument against this man's proposal. Everything you state make's perfect sense, and is entirely practical considering a free market economy. Sounds like we have some socialists in our midst.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems 365	Posted - 2015.07.06 06:38:42 - [68] - Quote elitatwo wrote: I hate market traders. They are the only capsuleers that you cannot shoot for what they are doing. The free market takes care of all of this. It's simple economics.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems 365	Posted - 2015.07.06 06:40:28 - [69] - Quote Maldiro Selkurk wrote: when you crack all the mirriors and blow away the smoke all this does is take a straightforward game mechanic and make it obtuse. -1 Which means CONGRATULATIONS! CCP lives for this kind of obtuse crap so i fully expect them to implement it in the next week or so. Uhh....what the **** are you talking about? Stupidity at it's finest.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems 365	Posted - 2015.07.06 06:46:31 - [70] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Quote: Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go I owe my soul to the company store - Merle Travis, Sixteen Tons That is Loyalty Points in a nutshell. Rather than paying you in ISK, which is readily transferable and accepted everywhere, Eve corporations pay out a large percentage of their rewards in scrip, which is redeemable only at the company store. Turning LP into stock shares, or some other liquid asset, completely undercuts the whole reason that these huge powerful corporations have to issue those Loyalty Points. The whole point is to pay you non-taxable income which is hard to transfer, hard to aggregate, and hard to liquidate. Why would Eve corporations want to give capsuleers, who are mere freelance contractors, shares in the company? Or let Demi-gods have even more power and autonomy? Sure, but what company would pay you in "loyalty" without giving you any tangible benefit other than "earn enough points and you can spend isk etc for this item." In any reasonable partnership, you would not simply be able to purchase an item, you would be an incredibly valued member (at the higher levels), granting you access to everything that corporation could reasonably grant you access to. This would be wealth, technology, influence, etc etc etc. LP is lame. This man's suggestion is phenomenal.

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2569	Posted - 2015.07.06 11:46:11 - [71] - Quote There wouldnt be a way to preserve it without keeping large ticket items that could only be redeemed with vouchers rather than shares. I thought about giving increasing amounts of shares for larger voucher redemptions. However, that means the problem flips to the opposite side and make redeeming and selling small amounts of shares give you a loss. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1247	Posted - 2015.07.06 13:29:13 - [72] - Quote Phaade wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Quote: Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go I owe my soul to the company store - Merle Travis, Sixteen Tons That is Loyalty Points in a nutshell. Rather than paying you in ISK, which is readily transferable and accepted everywhere, Eve corporations pay out a large percentage of their rewards in scrip, which is redeemable only at the company store. Turning LP into stock shares, or some other liquid asset, completely undercuts the whole reason that these huge powerful corporations have to issue those Loyalty Points. The whole point is to pay you non-taxable income which is hard to transfer, hard to aggregate, and hard to liquidate. Why would Eve corporations want to give capsuleers, who are mere freelance contractors, shares in the company? Or let Demi-gods have even more power and autonomy? Sure, but what company would pay you in "loyalty" without giving you any tangible benefit other than "earn enough points and you can spend isk etc for this item." In any reasonable partnership, you would not simply be able to purchase an item, you would be an incredibly valued member (at the higher levels), granting you access to everything that corporation could reasonably grant you access to. This would be wealth, technology, influence, etc etc etc. LP is lame. This man's suggestion is phenomenal. If it was not illegal, every company out there would still be paying workers in company scrip. It is still widely used throughout the developing world as a way to keep workers dependent on the company. Call it loyalty points or call it a credit card cash rewards program (only redeemable through the credit card store): it's the same thing and businesses everywhere try to do it as often as they can. So, at the danger of making a comparison to the real world, why would a super powerful Eve corporation want to give a Demi-God contractor an equity share in the company? That would be a terrible business decision and one that would surely be opposed by the stockholders. It is not an equal relationship. Now, if you want to argue that there are valid gameplay reasons not to tie mission runners to a particular LP store, or why mission rewards should be lowered (which would happen if you went from LP to a more liquid, easier to transfer, easier to aggregate, form of currency), or why it is a good idea to allow market speculation directly in the LP markets (it is not) go right ahead. But LP makes sense economically and from a game design perspective, so you will need a stronger argument than "LP is lame." Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1247	Posted - 2015.07.06 13:32:11 - [73] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Aliventi wrote: There is nothing stopping players from selling their shares at a price that is worth their time. If they don't like the market price they can sell them higher or exchange them for items that give them the isk/share they want. my issue here is that right now when i grind for big items, i am NOT competing with players grinding for small items. But by making LP sales all the same and near infinitely dividable you must compete at the share price level for both big items and small. For example, right now i can grind for a few hours and get a +4 implant, and then put that on the market at a crap margin (because the time/work investment is small and everyone can do it). Or, i can grind for days, maybe a couple weeks, and get a epsilon pirate implant with a much higher margin (because there are less people putting this time commitment in). With your proposal the players who are investing small amounts of time will be forcing down the price of shares, and with them the price of the LP items. And thats ALL LP items, including the ones that used to require large time investments. A well made point. That is something I hadn't considered. What would you consider fair compensation for the loss of this? Any proposal that makes mission rewards more liquid MUST be accompanied by a reduction in total rewards. As always with CCP, be careful what you ask for, you just might get it. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 884	Posted - 2015.07.06 16:35:57 - [74] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: There wouldn't be a way to preserve it without keeping large ticket items that could only be redeemed with vouchers rather than shares. I thought about giving increasing amounts of shares for larger voucher redemptions. However, that means the problem flips to the opposite side and make redeeming and selling small amounts of shares give you a loss. You could have the same item in the share buy back store for two separate prices. Maybe trading share vouchers gives you a 5% discount as opposed to shares. Thoughts?
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2573	Posted - 2015.07.07 00:24:30 - [75] - Quote Its a little arbitrary and wouldnt provide the same level of incentive to grind longer compared to what we have now, but its a decent middle ground. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3035	Posted - 2015.07.07 05:13:08 - [76] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Benefits: Shares will increase the isk sink they already are in game. Uhhhmmmm....how? The shares aren't going anywhere (aside from idiots undocking with them and getting blown up) so how is this an isk sink? With LP I have to spend isk (usually) to get the LP store items, hence the sink. Here I see no sink. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 887	Posted - 2015.07.08 01:29:30 - [77] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Its a little arbitrary and wouldnt provide the same level of incentive to grind longer compared to what we have now, but its a decent middle ground. I just don't think there is a way to do it that isn't arbitrary. CCP could add super expensive items (a Revenant BPC could be an example) but I don't see how the isk/share wouldn't be the same as an implant or mod that is much cheaper. It may just be an unfortunate side effect that you lose the better margins on things that take more shares. The market taxes on the shares will help because you won't have to pay them like someone else will. Aside from that I don't see a way that will make it work that isn't arbitrary.
Maldiro Selkurk CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X 263	Posted - 2015.07.08 22:03:24 - [78] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Aliventi wrote: There is nothing stopping players from selling their shares at a price that is worth their time. If they don't like the market price they can sell them higher or exchange them for items that give them the isk/share they want. my issue here is that right now when i grind for big items, i am NOT competing with players grinding for small items. But by making LP sales all the same and near infinitely dividable you must compete at the share price level for both big items and small. For example, right now i can grind for a few hours and get a +4 implant, and then put that on the market at a crap margin (because the time/work investment is small and everyone can do it). Or, i can grind for days, maybe a couple weeks, and get a epsilon pirate implant with a much higher margin (because there are less people putting this time commitment in). With your proposal the players who are investing small amounts of time will be forcing down the price of shares, and with them the price of the LP items. And thats ALL LP items, including the ones that used to require large time investments. A well made point. That is something I hadn't considered. What would you consider fair compensation for the loss of this? You had not thought of it ??? My post was on this very subject and you responded to it. Although i will admit there was zero thought behind your response so i guess in the end you are correct. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Maldiro Selkurk CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X 263	Posted - 2015.07.08 22:05:03 - [79] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Its a little arbitrary and wouldnt provide the same level of incentive to grind longer compared to what we have now, but its a decent middle ground. I just don't think there is a way to do it that isn't arbitrary. CCP could add super expensive items (a Revenant BPC could be an example) but I don't see how the isk/share wouldn't be the same as an implant or mod that is much cheaper. It may just be an unfortunate side effect that you lose the better margins on things that take more shares. The market taxes on the shares will help because you won't have to pay them like someone else will. Aside from that I don't see a way that will make it work that isn't arbitrary. An unfortunate side effect? You killing someones ISK / hr i think you better come up with something better than 'an unfortunate side effect", as a response. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Maldiro Selkurk CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X 263	Posted - 2015.07.08 22:20:03 - [80] - Quote deleted Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 887	Posted - 2015.07.09 02:46:23 - [81] - Quote Maldiro Selkurk wrote: Aliventi wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Its a little arbitrary and wouldnt provide the same level of incentive to grind longer compared to what we have now, but its a decent middle ground. I just don't think there is a way to do it that isn't arbitrary. CCP could add super expensive items (a Revenant BPC could be an example) but I don't see how the isk/share wouldn't be the same as an implant or mod that is much cheaper. It may just be an unfortunate side effect that you lose the better margins on things that take more shares. The market taxes on the shares will help because you won't have to pay them like someone else will. Aside from that I don't see a way that will make it work that isn't arbitrary. An unfortunate side effect? You killing someones ISK / hr i think you better come up with something better than 'an unfortunate side effect", as a response. I see this stuff again and again on the forums, as long as it isnt your ISK / hr being killed you dont care and for you personally that's just fine but as a game mechanic it is unacceptable. Things change all the time when it comes to payouts for certain activities. It isn't going to kill the isk/hour. It will reduce the isk/share price on certain items, but not make it worthless. You could argue that it is in fact not much of an "unfortunate side effect." Take a look at the Gurristas LP store. If you organize for best LP payouts you will see that it isn't pirate implants that give the best payouts, but faction ammo that uses very little amounts of LP. Truly how much of an issue is it? It's a balancing act. I think the change is worth the potential downside. Other players won't agree. I would love to find a way to keep the isk/share advantage of higher priced items. No one so far has proposed an idea that would preserve that without being totally arbitrary. As soon as someone does provide a satisfactory idea I would love to add it in.
Syrias Bizniz KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 412	Posted - 2015.07.10 09:45:32 - [82] - Quote No idea why your Isk/hr should get affected. There's the standard shops, which has its main profit items in ammo, implants and very few others, and there's the good shops, where you'd have to be stupid to buy ammo, implants or the other stuff, because there are items with so much better margins. If the LP become tradeable, there will be vast amounts of them available on and after patch day, until the market swallows them. Then it's only about the generation of new LP . If some idiots decide to dump their valuable lp into ****** items or undercut market orders for them, they are hurting themselves, not your margins. if they all decide to sell their LP, then they decouple themselves from the real business to be made - exchanging the lp into items. The marketeers will do it for them and demand higher ratios than they paid for and sell the goodies at nice returns. This will drive up the price again, as farmers would be stupid to sell their lp that much under value. Tl;dr: Good lpstores stay good, bad stay bad.
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1617	Posted - 2015.07.10 09:53:59 - [83] - Quote "Being unfortunate enough to reside on the lower end of the intelligence spectrum", however, is a very prevalent attribute in EVE players. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 887	Posted - 2015.07.11 15:21:46 - [84] - Quote After doing some further investigation I don't think there will be much lost by CCP introducing this plan. I took a look at the profitability of several corporation LP stores of different types (Highsec, Lowsec, Nullsec, Navy, Pirate) and I don't think there is any reason to attempt to protect high LP cost items. In many cases they are not the best item to trade your LP for, or if they are there isn't a significant difference between those items and cheaper items when it comes to isk/LP.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 887	Posted - 2015.07.17 15:31:30 - [85] - Quote Anyone have any more feedback before I go find the CSM?
Maldiro Selkurk CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X 279	Posted - 2015.07.18 06:51:18 - [86] - Quote Syrias Bizniz wrote: No idea why your Isk/hr should get affected. There's the standard shops, which has its main profit items in ammo, implants and very few others, and there's the good shops, where you'd have to be stupid to buy ammo, implants or the other stuff, because there are items with so much better margins. If the LP become tradeable, there will be vast amounts of them available on and after patch day, until the market swallows them. Then it's only about the generation of new LP . If some idiots decide to dump their valuable lp into ****** items or undercut market orders for them, they are hurting themselves, not your margins. if they all decide to sell their LP, then they decouple themselves from the real business to be made - exchanging the lp into items. The marketeers will do it for them and demand higher ratios than they paid for and sell the goodies at nice returns. This will drive up the price again, as farmers would be stupid to sell their lp that much under value. Tl;dr: Good lpstores stay good, bad stay bad. Well being 100% wrong is, i guess, pretty close to accurate. i make high sec LP and where i make it my LP is worth about 1k per LP. There are more dangerous places to make LP where your LP is worth a lot more than mine This shares system makes my LP worth more and at the same time makes the guy taking all the risks worth less. Great for me personnally but im not about to destroy the balance of the game with regard to risk benefit just to line my own pockets. Bad ideas are bad no matter how many people are blind to the consequences of the idea. Hopefully CCPs devs have a better command of the consequences of this proposal than a lot of posters here seem to have. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 887	Posted - 2015.07.18 12:30:33 - [87] - Quote Maldiro Selkurk wrote: Syrias Bizniz wrote: No idea why your Isk/hr should get affected. There's the standard shops, which has its main profit items in ammo, implants and very few others, and there's the good shops, where you'd have to be stupid to buy ammo, implants or the other stuff, because there are items with so much better margins. If the LP become tradeable, there will be vast amounts of them available on and after patch day, until the market swallows them. Then it's only about the generation of new LP . If some idiots decide to dump their valuable lp into ****** items or undercut market orders for them, they are hurting themselves, not your margins. if they all decide to sell their LP, then they decouple themselves from the real business to be made - exchanging the lp into items. The marketeers will do it for them and demand higher ratios than they paid for and sell the goodies at nice returns. This will drive up the price again, as farmers would be stupid to sell their lp that much under value. Tl;dr: Good lpstores stay good, bad stay bad. Well being 100% wrong is, i guess, pretty close to accurate. i make high sec LP and where i make it my LP is worth about 1k per LP. There are more dangerous places to make LP where your LP is worth a lot more than mine This shares system makes my LP worth more and at the same time makes the guy taking all the risks worth less. Great for me personnally but im not about to destroy the balance of the game with regard to risk benefit just to line my own pockets. Bad ideas are bad no matter how many people are blind to the consequences of the idea. Hopefully CCPs devs have a better command of the consequences of this proposal than a lot of posters here seem to have. Explain why you think more risky shares, Pirate shares for example, would fall in price? There wouldn't be an increase in long term supply unless more people started running the missions. There are items in the store that only those shares could purchase. So a cheaper share can't be used to buy slave implants. Why would the price fall? Also, why would your share value, say Sisters of Eve or an Empire's Navy shares, rise in price? If anything it should fall in price as a missive amount of shares that people have left dormant in their wallets would depress the price. On the long term if any share price is worth more than 1-1.2k/share it would make sense for people to shift to running those missions, which would cause an increase in supply, and therefore depress prices. Why would the price rise? In other words, Syrias Bizniz is likely to be correct as that is how our current understanding of supply and demand economics works. Why is he wrong?
Maldiro Selkurk CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X 282	Posted - 2015.07.18 22:59:10 - [88] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Maldiro Selkurk wrote: Syrias Bizniz wrote: No idea why your Isk/hr should get affected. There's the standard shops, which has its main profit items in ammo, implants and very few others, and there's the good shops, where you'd have to be stupid to buy ammo, implants or the other stuff, because there are items with so much better margins. If the LP become tradeable, there will be vast amounts of them available on and after patch day, until the market swallows them. Then it's only about the generation of new LP . If some idiots decide to dump their valuable lp into ****** items or undercut market orders for them, they are hurting themselves, not your margins. if they all decide to sell their LP, then they decouple themselves from the real business to be made - exchanging the lp into items. The marketeers will do it for them and demand higher ratios than they paid for and sell the goodies at nice returns. This will drive up the price again, as farmers would be stupid to sell their lp that much under value. Tl;dr: Good lpstores stay good, bad stay bad. Well being 100% wrong is, i guess, pretty close to accurate. i make high sec LP and where i make it my LP is worth about 1k per LP. There are more dangerous places to make LP where your LP is worth a lot more than mine This shares system makes my LP worth more and at the same time makes the guy taking all the risks worth less. Great for me personnally but im not about to destroy the balance of the game with regard to risk benefit just to line my own pockets. Bad ideas are bad no matter how many people are blind to the consequences of the idea. Hopefully CCPs devs have a better command of the consequences of this proposal than a lot of posters here seem to have. Explain why you think more risky shares, Pirate shares for example, would fall in price? There wouldn't be an increase in long term supply unless more people started running the missions. There are items in the store that only those shares could purchase. So a cheaper share can't be used to buy slave implants. Why would the price fall? Also, why would your share value, say Sisters of Eve or an Empire's Navy shares, rise in price? If anything it should fall in price as a missive amount of shares that people have left dormant in their wallets would depress the price. On the long term if any share price is worth more than 1-1.2k/share it would make sense for people to shift to running those missions, which would cause an increase in supply, and therefore depress prices. Why would the price rise? In other words, Syrias Bizniz is likely to be correct as that is how our current understanding of supply and demand economics works. Why is he wrong? I cant help you if you cant see it by now from what ive already said, it is in as basic a choice of words as i can muster. If CCP puts in some kind of exchange system it will not look like this one. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 887	Posted - 2015.07.19 12:59:09 - [89] - Quote Maldiro Selkurk wrote: Aliventi wrote: Explain why you think more risky shares, Pirate shares for example, would fall in price? There wouldn't be an increase in long term supply unless more people started running the missions. There are items in the store that only those shares could purchase. So a cheaper share can't be used to buy slave implants. Why would the price fall? Also, why would your share value, say Sisters of Eve or an Empire's Navy shares, rise in price? If anything it should fall in price as a missive amount of shares that people have left dormant in their wallets would depress the price. On the long term if any share price is worth more than 1-1.2k/share it would make sense for people to shift to running those missions, which would cause an increase in supply, and therefore depress prices. Why would the price rise? In other words, Syrias Bizniz is likely to be correct as that is how our current understanding of supply and demand economics works. Why is he wrong? Okay, instead of calling what i make LP, lets call it pennies and instead of the guy taking risks somewhere making LP, lets call what he makes dollars. Now if you put these on the market like they are equal the guy getting dollars is going to get screwed and im going to be dancing my way to a fortune at his expense. LP does not equal LP just because they share a name. I know that different LP has different values. Pirate LP is worth more than Navy LP. You claimed that Pirate LP prices will fall and your (I am guessing Navy for SoE) LP prices will rise. But why? I am arguing that there is no economical foundation for your claim. Knowing basic supply and demand would lead to the conclusion that Gurristas shares will still be worth more than Caldari Navy shares. Why wouldn't they be? You tell me.
stopher Vynneve Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.07.19 20:20:43 - [90] - Quote at the very least lp should be tradeable .its about the only thing your carnt trade in eve (ie dog tags) also each faction should have better lp stuff ,like what ccp have done with sisters ships

Syrias Bizniz KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 412	Posted - 2015.07.20 08:21:53 - [91] - Quote Maldiro Selkurk wrote: stuff okay, again, for clarification, as you seem to not have understood the whole proposal here. current system: you farm for caldari navy, you get caldari navy lp, only redeemable at caldari navy lp stores. you farm for guristas, you get guristas lp, only redeemable at guristas lp stores. new, proposed system: you farm for caldari navy, you get caldari navy shares, which you can sell on the market, where someone can buy them and only turn them in at the caldari navy store. you farm for guristas, you get guristas shares, which you can sell on the market, where someone can buy them and only turn them in at the guristas store. now it's your turn in making an educated statement on how your ****** 1k isk/ lp caldari navy lp (or shares, to be accurate) would have any impact on the value of guristas shares. also, lol, 1k isk/lp in highsec, change your corp dude, you're fcking yourself. another thing to keep in mind: if your shares are worth 1k isk per piece, then that is because the most commom items from that corps lp store have a market value that runs down to 1k isk per lp spent plus all the other stuff. you would never achieve a marketprice for your plain, tradeable shares of 1k isk, but below. the difference is the traders margin. if you want the full value, you have to redeem the shares onyour own and sell the items on your own. selling the shares is just a way to get isk quicker, but you cut your profits in doing so.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1431	Posted - 2015.07.20 09:55:51 - [92] - Quote Syrias Bizniz wrote: ... selling the shares is just a way to get isk quicker, but you cut your profits in doing so. One of my problems with this idea is exactly this, it is a way for players to 'get isk quicker' (which I dare say is the whole point of the thread), which is something the game does not need I think.
Syrias Bizniz KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 412	Posted - 2015.07.20 11:39:59 - [93] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Syrias Bizniz wrote: ... selling the shares is just a way to get isk quicker, but you cut your profits in doing so. One of my problems with this idea is exactly this, it is a way for players to 'get isk quicker' (which I dare say is the whole point of the thread), which is something the game does not need I think. theyd still have to farm the lp first. if they decide they want an easy but less profitable cash out, then it's a chance for everyone else to make isk from their decision. just like a miner can sell the ore in remote systems if he wants to cash out quickly, where he has to live with the lower profit. what's your point again? edit: right niw, you can purchase ammo (or anything else, really) from the lp store and sell it right there, not hauling it to jita first. Boom, there's your easy way. it's in the game already.
Barrogh Habalu Forever Winter Absolute Zero. 936	Posted - 2015.07.20 12:08:39 - [94] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: One of my problems with this idea is exactly this, it is a way for players to 'get isk quicker' (which I dare say is the whole point of the thread), which is something the game does not need I think. "Making ISK quick" here doesn't mean that player profits will increase. It just means that mission runner will be able to sell his "LP" without bothering to acquire and haul goods, but someone will still have to go to those NPC stations, cash out these new "LP" and haul good back to sell. Not much changes in this regard. Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1433	Posted - 2015.07.20 13:09:00 - [95] - Quote Syrias Bizniz wrote: ... edit: right niw, you can purchase ammo (or anything else, really) from the lp store and sell it right there, not hauling it to jita first. Boom, there's your easy way. it's in the game already. So there ia already an easy way to capitalize on LP with minimal effort. Why would we then need to introduce another means for players to capitalize quickly? Everything is already there for players to utilize the LP they are rewarded with, nothing new is required.
Syrias Bizniz KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 412	Posted - 2015.07.20 13:55:13 - [96] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Syrias Bizniz wrote: ... edit: right niw, you can purchase ammo (or anything else, really) from the lp store and sell it right there, not hauling it to jita first. Boom, there's your easy way. it's in the game already. So there ia already an easy way to capitalize on LP with minimal effort. Why would we then need to introduce another means for players to capitalize quickly? Everything is already there for players to utilize the LP they are rewarded with, nothing new is required. you know what? i knew this response would come. i was unsure whether or not i should put it in. the statement i did was not to discredit the necessity of this change, but to discredit your's that something like this shouldn't be in the game. As barrogh pointed out, this does not increase player's income.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1433	Posted - 2015.07.20 15:36:04 - [97] - Quote Syrias Bizniz wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Syrias Bizniz wrote: ... edit: right niw, you can purchase ammo (or anything else, really) from the lp store and sell it right there, not hauling it to jita first. Boom, there's your easy way. it's in the game already. So there ia already an easy way to capitalize on LP with minimal effort. Why would we then need to introduce another means for players to capitalize quickly? Everything is already there for players to utilize the LP they are rewarded with, nothing new is required. you know what? i knew this response would come. i was unsure whether or not i should put it in. the statement i did was not to discredit the necessity of this change, but to discredit your's that something like this shouldn't be in the game. As barrogh pointed out, this does not increase player's income. I can't be bothered with the maths but if you can convert you LP in the form of shares into isk in ~10 mins by using an interceptor to get to a hub in safety and dump the lot instead of say an hour to convert all LP and safely haul the modules and sell them you then have 50 mins of your usual LP/hr rate that you wouldn't have had before. Time is isk, this would take less time and effort and so makes the player more isk in the same time with less effort and less risk.
Syrias Bizniz KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 412	Posted - 2015.07.20 17:55:08 - [98] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Syrias Bizniz wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Syrias Bizniz wrote: ... edit: right niw, you can purchase ammo (or anything else, really) from the lp store and sell it right there, not hauling it to jita first. Boom, there's your easy way. it's in the game already. So there ia already an easy way to capitalize on LP with minimal effort. Why would we then need to introduce another means for players to capitalize quickly? Everything is already there for players to utilize the LP they are rewarded with, nothing new is required. you know what? i knew this response would come. i was unsure whether or not i should put it in. the statement i did was not to discredit the necessity of this change, but to discredit your's that something like this shouldn't be in the game. As barrogh pointed out, this does not increase player's income. I can't be bothered with the maths but if you can convert you LP in the form of shares into isk in ~10 mins by using an interceptor to get to a hub in safety and dump the lot instead of say an hour to convert all LP and safely haul the modules and sell them you then have 50 mins of your usual LP/hr rate that you wouldn't have had before. Time is isk, this would take less time and effort and so makes the player more isk in the same time with less effort and less risk. You're hauling your items and risk getting ganked instead of hiring people like red frog and have an insurance? Picking the ceptor and stuffing in Shares worth several million, potentially hundreds of millions of ISK just to haul this stuff to Jita 4-4 asap and make a good profit involves far more risk than the current LP mechanics. All it takes is a instalock thrasher or a well placed smart bomb battleship and you're gone. Then there's players buying these shares, putting them into another ship, and make another trip just to be able to convert them into items. Another route where the haul can go horribly wrong. THEN the items need to get hauled back to Jita 4-4 (or whatever other tradehub), where they can get ganked AGAIN. If you really think this lowers risk involved for players, then you're not thinking this through properly.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16730	Posted - 2015.07.20 18:16:39 - [99] - Quote How can this "lower risk" when the LP still have to be redeemed at an LP store the same way they always did? If anything, this increases the liklehood of "jackpot" ganks when some dude tries to corner the market in IN Small Neuts or something and redeems 60M IN LP in one go. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 1489	Posted - 2015.07.20 22:25:09 - [100] - Quote LP's are fine it's Bounties that need to go.

Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1439	Posted - 2015.07.21 01:41:50 - [101] - Quote Syrias Bizniz wrote: ... If you really think this lowers risk involved for players, then you're not thinking this through properly. A) gankers are always saying if you fly properly you can pretty much avoid them B) if the risk is truly that high then you'll just buy/sell the shares at the main LP centres and not even bother moving them as this makes most sense (since the buyer needs them at the LP centre anyway)
Syrias Bizniz KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 412	Posted - 2015.07.21 12:12:01 - [102] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Syrias Bizniz wrote: ... If you really think this lowers risk involved for players, then you're not thinking this through properly. A) gankers are always saying if you fly properly you can pretty much avoid them B) if the risk is truly that high then you'll just buy/sell the shares at the main LP centres and not even bother moving them as this makes most sense (since the buyer needs them at the LP centre anyway) 1- effort. 95% of the people are too lazy or feeling lucky today. What do you think why there are people still getting ganked? 2- effort (for the lp buyer) to go to 20 different stations. decentralication: spread throughout multiple regions this would lead to different prices on the same item, something most people hate. they want to buy their stuff with as little effort and discrepancy as possible. that's why you'd have gankable high value cargo 3 times more frequent than now.
Aliventi Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 900	Posted - 2015.07.23 19:16:34 - [103] - Quote This change is designed to bring more meaningful choices and consequences to LP, and by extension Eve as a whole. Yes, it will likely increase certain risks. That is a side effect. The main effect is people having opportunities to buy, sell trade, scam, and manipulate in new ways. The new opportunities will allow players to build their own story in Eve. I am predicting a good number of stories will be created as a result. I imagine a few of them will go from stories to legends much in the way of the Guiding Hand Social Club heist has. That is Eve. That is what we are creating here. The results of five pages of talk is that there is no proven detriment to Eve, but many benefits for players to seize upon. I would love to hear more feedback, but IMO it seems pretty much case closed that this would be a good thing for Eve.
Destitute Tehol Beddict Trygalle Trade Guild Letherii Div 37	Posted - 2015.07.23 19:51:44 - [104] - Quote There's really nothing wrong with this idea besides that it is a change and may create more content. Loot Buying service:-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4529397#post4529397
Arla Sarain 560	Posted - 2015.07.23 20:30:21 - [105] - Quote Aliventi wrote: This change is designed to bring more meaningful choices and consequences to LP, and by extension Eve as a whole. Yes, it will likely increase certain risks. That is a side effect. The main effect is people having opportunities to buy, sell trade, scam, and manipulate in new ways. The new opportunities will allow players to build their own story in Eve. I am predicting a good number of stories will be created as a result. I imagine a few of them will go from stories to legends much in the way of the Guiding Hand Social Club heist has. That is Eve. That is what we are creating here. The results of five pages of talk is that there is no proven detriment to Eve, but many benefits for players to seize upon. I would love to hear more feedback, but IMO it seems pretty much case closed that this would be a good thing for Eve. That may be true, but one of the reasons why EVE is not picking up players is because it's not really mainstream. Im not talking like WoW mainstream. I mean streamlined. Introducing more loopholes for people to exploit the herd mentality folk just assures that newer players will be hurt more than anyone else in EVE. I wouldn't flat out say no to this, but I think EVE needs to inspire a different mindset (such as a more chill attitude towards losing and dying, less carebearness and more desire for taking risks) before this could be healthy change.
Aliventi Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 912	Posted - 2015.09.23 22:52:05 - [106] - Quote Don't want to lose this thread to the lock.


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