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Tribunal
FIRMA
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:44:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Your completely missing the point here, your mind is wrapped up in your own little world of semi-importance that it fails to notice a basic essential of this patch.
The Mega isn't changing, it isn't changing repeat those words many times until you get it into your tiny little mind and get to grasp with this fact, its been the best long range Tier 2 ship for a long time and its still the best Tier 2 ship for long range engagements.
This is Revelations -
Discuss the attributes of the Tier 3 Battleships by all accounts, the merits and demerits; but comparing a Tier 3 ship to a Tier 2 ship is about as stupid as it gets.
IT'S MEANT TO BE BETTER, thats why it costs more.
Maybe the next uber long range Battleship will be Amarian or Mini in Tier 4, until then get to grips with the fact that the Best Tier 2 Long range ship is outclassed by the best Tier 3 Long range ship.
What the hell do you not understand about that?
Go and cut and paste another segment out of a dictionary, while your wasting time doing this go and reflect on the above facts.
Ok then, the Rokh outdistances EVERY tier 3 battleship by 50km+ which makes all of them pointless for fleet combat. Happy now?
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:56:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 27/11/2006 21:14:27
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Discuss the attributes of the Tier 3 Battleships by all accounts, the merits and demerits; but comparing a Tier 3 ship to a Tier 2 ship is about as stupid as it gets.
IT'S MEANT TO BE BETTER, thats why it costs more.
This is a crap argument. It has been debunked several times. It is simply getting OLD.
Devs have said "different, not better". I'm tired of this rubbish. Are you saying that the Mega is better than the Domi? That the Tempest is better than the Phoon? That the Raven is better than the Scorp?
If so, you would be wrong on EVERY ACCOUNT.
Given that, I'm not sure why the devs insist on this "tier" stuff anyway. It is a broken paradigm, especially since THEY have said "different, not better".
Quote:
Maybe the next uber long range Battleship will be Amarian or Mini in Tier 4, until then get to grips with the fact that the Best Tier 2 Long range ship is outclassed by the best Tier 3 Long range ship.
What the hell do you not understand about that?
Oh my GAWAAAAAAD. 
You think that OBSOLESCENCE is the answer to balance in this game?
EDIT: Just in case you are all like "OOOO WELL PROOOOOOOOVE A DEv SED EEEET!"
OK, fine! LINKY
Originally by: Tuxford
Just to ease your minds then I have this to say about the tier 3 ships. They are only called tier 3 ships that doesn't mean that they will just be better than the other two battleship. In fact tier 2 battleships aren't necessarily better for every situation than tier 1 battleships. In some situations you'd prefer a scorpion over a raven, a dominix over a mega, an arma over an apoc. Typhoon has its own issues which the recent bonus changes should fix.
The key thing is to make it different, not better. Its pretty obvious for me that the Caldari will be a railboat. Saying that its a missile race not a turret race is simply not true. Its just like saying Gallente are drone race not a turret race. Caldari use missiles and railguns like Gallente use drones and blasters. Well they can in reality use both railguns and blasters though.
As for stats that are on them now then they are hardly final and all speculation about them at this point is just that, speculation.
Case closed, end of discussion.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Asariasha
Caldari
Cataclysm Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 21:15:00 -
[33]
Well Tribunal, just to get away from your 50km lets do it a more
"percentual" way...
Why does a Rokh outdistance/outshieldtank other ships by 25% ?
Why does a Megathron outdmg/outtrack other ships by 25%/37,5% ?
Why does a Tempest outdmg/outRoF other ships by 25% ?
...well it is an easy question which can easily be answered.
It is a decision of game design a way to differentiate the
existing races from each other.
Every ship has it's niche and fullfils roles while it has some
weak spots.
Of course you could just apply the same bonus on every ship
just making its look and textures being the difference, but
then the game would become boring. You wouldn't have to think
about tactics while facing an opponent.
The main problem is that many people here don't seem to understand
this fact.
Caldari are good at hybrid long ranged combat adding EW
Gallente are good hybrid close range combat adding Drones
Minmatar are good in projectile combat facing its pros and cons adding they are the Speedy Gonzales of EvE
Amarr are the laser guys who have to face its pros and cons
There will always be special situations in which you better
get away with your ship.
Gallenteans never have been ment to be the best snipers.
Actually they have never been Gallentean sniper ships, because
none of it has got a bonus to range.
From the beginning of EvE Caldari has been the race with given
range bonus to hybrids missing a battleship sized vessel to
fullfill this role. Now, Caldaris have this ship and I can
only suggest to accept it.
And no, you will never see a fullfleet of Rokhs. This is just
a "murder one" myth a player who can not accept or adapt to
new situations.
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 21:22:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Asariasha
Well Tribunal, just to get away from your 50km lets do it a more
"percentual" way...
Why does a Rokh outdistance/outshieldtank other ships by 25% ?
Why does a Megathron outdmg/outtrack other ships by 25%/37,5% ?
Why does a Tempest outdmg/outRoF other ships by 25% ?
The problem here is that your argument is wrong.
The Megathron does not outdamage other ships by 25% (primarily due to the Spike nerf), because the Rokh can just load up best named T1 guns and T1 ammo and do the same damage at the same distance.
The Megathron's tracking is also a moot point (this is been discussed ad nauseum, yet people cling to it). I'll explain why BRIEFLY:
- For blasters, if you don't web your target, you aren't going to hit it whether you have tracking or not (as evidenced by experiments in the Hyperion.
- For rails (ie. looong distance combat) the tracking bonus doesn't matter because the targets are so far away. Typically, if a Megathron can hit it with its tracking bonus, so can any other ship. The tracking with these long range setups is simply so poor that if the Megathron can hit it with Spike, the Rokh can easily hit it as well by using shorter range T1 ammo (doing equal damage, and not suffering from the tracking penalty of Spike).
So please stop using these tired old crappy arguments, they don't do the game balance any justice.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 21:29:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Asariasha
Well Tribunal, just to get away from your 50km lets do it a more
"percentual" way...
Why does a Rokh outdistance/outshieldtank other ships by 25% ?
Why does a Megathron outdmg/outtrack other ships by 25%/37,5% ?
Why does a Tempest outdmg/outRoF other ships by 25% ?
The problem is that because are talking about fleet battles here the question is not "Why does the rokh outdistance/outshieldtank other ships by 50%/33%?"
The question is "Why does the Rokh outdamage other ships by inf% and out tank them by inf%?"
The issue of long range in fleet encounters is that the Rokh doesnt just "out range them" its that range equals damage. The Rokh will take zero damage from battleships that are not Rokh's [and HAC's that are not Eagles, Command Ships that are not Vultures, and any other ship type aside from captal class ships]. When a fleet shows up with armageddons you can still shoot them with Mega's, when a fleet shows up with Mega's you can still shoot them with Hyperions. The small damage difference is important, but not so much that a fleet of one will utterly obliterate a fleet of the other with zero losses.
If a fleet of Rokhs shows up, nothing can hit them. They will take ZERO damage until the opposing fleet can move at least 20+km. At which point they will have a 50% damage advantage. After the opposing fleet has moved 40km the advantage will be equal, 50 KM and the opposing fleet will be OK.
This means that in order to challenge a fleet of Rokhs you need either capital class ships, Rokhs of your own, or enough pilots in ships fast enough to traverse 100+KM of space before getting anhilated so your fleet can warp to them inside the Rokh fleet's optimal[and hope you arent inside a bubble.
The only other thing you can do is run.
Nothing can make up this gap, not skills, not modules, more battleships, nothing short of capital class ships.
Its not that the Rokh doesnt "fill a role" or that other ships dont fill a role, its that in the role that the Rokh fills, which is a prime role for battleships, not other battleship can even come close to competing.
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Asariasha
Caldari
Cataclysm Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 21:49:00 -
[36]
Well the magic word - close range. But this seems to be a non-existant
thing for some people...i guess another myth.
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Tribunal
FIRMA
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 21:56:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Asariasha
Well the magic word - close range. But this seems to be a non-existant
thing for some people...i guess another myth.
For large fleet battles close ranged combat is mostly a myth.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:05:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Asariasha
Well the magic word - close range. But this seems to be a non-existant
thing for some people...i guess another myth.
Yes, and no one is complaining that the Rokh is going to be a superduper blaster boat, they are complaining that it will obsolete all other ships in fleet battles. Fleet battles dont happen at short range, and if they do, one side has seriously messed up.
It has messed up so bad that it wouldnt have mattered if it brought any ships to the battle, because close range for any sniper setup=death. The megatron is 25% better than the Rokh inside 30km... but for a fleet setup this means... "The megathron is 25% better than useless under 30km". Coincidentally, 1.25 x "useless" is still "useless".
I mean, lets say we had a ship that had a module that only it could operate, used zero cap, and within 20km it was a 100% perfect ECM against all ships not also running that module. This would obviously be overpowered, because the only ships that could compete in short range combat would be that ship.
That is what the Rokh is to fleet battles, its equivelent to a 100% effective AoE ECM that works on all ships except Rokhs and uses no capacitor. No ship but the rokh[aside from cap ships] can deal damage to a rokh in a fleet battle. All other ships are obsolete.
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Muadeeb Ousil
Minmatar
Office linebackers
Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:35:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Muadeeb Ousil on 27/11/2006 22:38:08
Fleet Commanders have had to deal with a long ranged ship since Tier 2 came out, its called the Megathron, funnily enough its tracking and damage type wasn't to bad either.
Yet fleet battles still happen, Why because its rare for a complete fleet to be dominated by one ship - people train different races and have been doing so since the game started. Most will stick behind the specialisation to stay the best they can be with their ship type.
The only thing that changes from Revelations is that you can replace the name of the Mega with the name of the Rokh. The tactics remain the same for dealing with either before/after the patch.
Ohh and lots of Mega pilots come to forums to complain that they need to spend time retraining not a new weapon but a new ship, and Caldari pilots come to the forum to complain they have to learn a new weapon type.
Meanwhile the Minnie and Amarr pilots scratch their heads and wonder WTF they are both complaining about because they think the Caldari/Gallente pilots have it easy in comparison, because to get in the shiny, new, long range ship they need to not only train the weapon type but also the ship.
So WTF are Mega pilots complaining about again?
I've got no problem listening to Amarr and Minie pilots complaining about the Rohk but not Gallente pilots.
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Loud Speaker
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:43:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Edited by: Muadeeb Ousil on 27/11/2006 22:38:08
Fleet Commanders have had to deal with a long ranged ship since Tier 2 came out, its called the Megathron, funnily enough its tracking and damage type wasn't to bad either.
Yet fleet battles still happen, Why because its rare for a complete fleet to be dominated by one ship - people train different races and have been doing so since the game started. Most will stick behind the specialisation to stay the best they can be with their ship type.
The only thing that changes from Revelations is that you can replace the name of the Mega with the name of the Rokh. The tactics remain the same for dealing with either before/after the patch.
Ohh and lots of Mega pilots come to forums to complain that they need to spend time retraining not a new weapon but a new ship, and Caldari pilots come to the forum to complain they have to learn a new weapon type.
Meanwhile the Minnie and Amarr pilots scratch their heads and wonder WTF they are both complaining about because they think the Caldari/Gallente pilots have it easy in comparison, because to get in the shiny, new, long range ship they need to not only train the weapon type but also the ship.
So WTF are Mega pilots complaining about again?
I've got no problem listening to Amarr and Minie pilots complaining about the Rohk but not Gallente pilots.
I mentioned this in the other thread. Perhaps Minmatar and Amarr can take comfort in the fact that they wont need to train large guns to lvl 5 and large railgun spec
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:49:00 -
[41]
The Mega didnt outrange any other long range ships... Not by any significant amount. The difference between the mega and the everything else at the time is small compared to the difference between the rokh and everything else.
The t2 gun introduction is a perfect example. When t2 guns were introduced it was "bring t2 weapons or dont bother coming"
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:58:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Asariasha
Well the magic word - close range. But this seems to be a non-existant
thing for some people...i guess another myth.
Yes, and no one is complaining that the Rokh is going to be a superduper blaster boat, they are complaining that it will obsolete all other ships in fleet battles.
Actually, we are... we're just doing it in another thread.
Rokh = 4 blasters + 4 NOS + godly tank > dedicated blaster ships. Pretty sad, but true.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.11.27 23:00:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
....
So WTF are Mega pilots complaining about again?
I've got no problem listening to Amarr and Minie pilots complaining about the Rohk but not Gallente pilots.
Please leave this thread. It is clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.
The Megathron DID NOT outrange the other long range battleships by any margin comparable to what the Rokh is doing.
The Rokh essentially introduces obsolescence to ALL current craft that CAN be used for long range combat.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
skillbuyer
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Posted - 2006.11.29 09:58:00 -
[44]
Yet another flawed math thread by murder one.
"Tracking does not matter unless the target completely evades you"? Oh really?
I have two words for you:
Percentile chance to miss, and hit quality degradation.
Naturally with a Megathron you don't have to worry much about it, but I suggest you start looking into it before trying to discuss other ships.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.11.29 10:05:00 -
[45]
If you want to compare 2 ships tracking, please fit the same fittings.. don't go about saying "This is the best way to fit it.. yada yada". Its like comparing a truck with a ford escort. Not the same and to many variables.
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