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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:22:00 -
[1]
Assuming Maxed skills:
Rokh with 2x Tracking comps (t2) and 2x Tracking enhancers (t2)- this is the optimal configuration for the Rokh due to it's low slot layout.
Tracking-
Spike: 0.005026 (rounded to six decimals should suffice)
T1 ammo: 0.020104
Megathron with 1x Tracking comp, (t2) and 3x Tracking enhancers (t2)- this is the optimal setup for the Mega due to it's low/mid slot config.
Tracking-
Spike: 0.005852
T1 ammo: 0.023410
So if you look at the above numbers, the tracking difference between the two ships is almost zero. The tracking is SO bad for each that I have to run the numbers out to six decimal places just to get a meaningful measurement. ADDITIONALLY, the tracking for the Rokh is FAR GREATER than the Mega when you compare the Rokh using T1 ammo, and the Mega having to use T2 ammo in order to reach as far as the Rokh can (out to 185km for the Mega using spike).
So basically what is happening here is this: at long range, the Rokh can use T1 ammo where the Mega is limited to T2 ammo, and has superior tracking over the Mega, even with it's tracking bonus. But I've already shown that this doesn't matter one bit anyway, as the tracking is so low with any form of ammo regardless of what ship it is as to be a negligable factor when determining if you're going to hit something or not.
It's not that tracking is unimportant, it is important. The point is that if something is moving fast enough that the Rokh will miss due to high transversal, then the Mega is going to miss as well, even with it's tracking bonus.
Now that I have made this perfectly clear, can EVERYONE THAT IS HUNG UP ON THIS TRACKING BONUS THING PLEASE STFU.
Thanks in advance.
Because I said so...
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:24:00 -
[2]
And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:27:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: James Lyrus
And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
The tracking ratio between the two ships doesn't change. If one is shooting at a target with enough transverse to miss, so will the other. I'm not sure I understand why you're confused. 425mm rails have such **** poor tracking that any little degree of transversal will cause you to miss. I'm showing that no amount of tracking bonus or tracking comps etc. will allow you to hit something if he has even the slightest amount of transverse. If you're going to miss when the target is doing 150m/sec trans at 200km, you're sure as hell going to miss (with both ships) at 35km.
What is so god****ed hard about this ****?
Because I said so...
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
The Keep
THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:35:00 -
[4]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: James Lyrus
And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
The tracking ratio between the two ships doesn't change. If one is shooting at a target with enough transverse to miss, so will the other. I'm not sure I understand why you're confused. 425mm rails have such **** poor tracking that any little degree of transversal will cause you to miss. I'm showing that no amount of tracking bonus or tracking comps etc. will allow you to hit something if he has even the slightest amount of transverse. If you're going to miss when the target is doing 150m/sec trans at 200km, you're sure as hell going to miss (with both ships) at 35km.
What is so god****ed hard about this ****?
If you fit 2 tracking enhances in the lows of a rokh, a mega will out dps you by a wide margin. You have to put 2 RCU's in the lows of a rohk to fit a full rack of 425mm tech II rails. leaving you with 1 mag stab II
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:37:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: James Lyrus
And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
The tracking ratio between the two ships doesn't change. If one is shooting at a target with enough transverse to miss, so will the other. I'm not sure I understand why you're confused. 425mm rails have such **** poor tracking that any little degree of transversal will cause you to miss. I'm showing that no amount of tracking bonus or tracking comps etc. will allow you to hit something if he has even the slightest amount of transverse. If you're going to miss when the target is doing 150m/sec trans at 200km, you're sure as hell going to miss (with both ships) at 35km.
What is so god****ed hard about this ****?
If you fit 2 tracking enhances in the lows of a rokh, a mega will out dps you by a wide margin. You have to put 2 RCU's in the lows of a rohk to fit a full rack of 425mm tech II rails. leaving you with 1 mag stab II
No you friggin retard. Fit 3x grid rigs and that gives you +33% grid. Get a friggin clue.
Because I said so...
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Scythus Aratan
Bad Karma.
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:40:00 -
[6]
One grid rig takes 200 calibration, how much does a Rokh have?
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Scythus Aratan
One grid rig takes 200 calibration, how much does a Rokh have?
no, it's 100
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Scythus Aratan
One grid rig takes 200 calibration, how much does a Rokh have?
Rokh has 400 points, each grid rig is 100 points each and provides 10% increase in grid, and the stacking is compounded, so that when you add three grid rigs it's +33% grid. I've done it, I know how it works. It's great.
Because I said so...
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
The Keep
THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: James Lyrus
And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
The tracking ratio between the two ships doesn't change. If one is shooting at a target with enough transverse to miss, so will the other. I'm not sure I understand why you're confused. 425mm rails have such **** poor tracking that any little degree of transversal will cause you to miss. I'm showing that no amount of tracking bonus or tracking comps etc. will allow you to hit something if he has even the slightest amount of transverse. If you're going to miss when the target is doing 150m/sec trans at 200km, you're sure as hell going to miss (with both ships) at 35km.
What is so god****ed hard about this ****?
If you fit 2 tracking enhances in the lows of a rokh, a mega will out dps you by a wide margin. You have to put 2 RCU's in the lows of a rohk to fit a full rack of 425mm tech II rails. leaving you with 1 mag stab II
No you friggin retard. Fit 3x grid rigs and that gives you +33% grid. Get a friggin clue.
fit a damage and a ro rig on the mega, use that extra lowslot on the mega with a dcu.
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Asariasha
Caldari
Cataclysm Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:52:00 -
[10]
Would you please count in the following things to your
unfinished maths:
- transversal speed of 200-250m/s
- signature radi of both ships (mega 400m/rokh 500m)
- 2nd TrackingComp for mega (usually you fit 2)
This would give you far far more realistic comparison and
shows that Rokhs tracking at close range is much more worse
than a megas tracking.
So, please stop to post unfinished calculations/charts which
miss some important points. This leads only to distorted results.
Greets
Asa
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:57:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Asariasha
Would you please count in the following things to your
unfinished maths:
- transversal speed of 200-250m/s
- signature radi of both ships (mega 400m/rokh 500m)
- 2nd TrackingComp for mega (usually you fit 2)
This would give you far far more realistic comparison and
shows that Rokhs tracking at close range is much more worse
than a megas tracking.
So, please stop to post unfinished calculations/charts which
miss some important points. This leads only to distorted results.
Greets
Asa
A second tracking comp on the mega is redundant after you fit 3x tracking enhancers in the lows and one TC in the mids. If you knew anything about ship setups, you wouldn't even bring this up.
Sig radius doens't matter, as anything BS sized will be hit just fine.
And actual transverse numbers don't matter, as the WHOLE POINT of the original post is that the tracking numbers are so close to each other in value as to NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO. IF ONE SHIP WILL MISS DUE TO TRANSVERSE, SO WILL THE OTHER.
WTF is WRONG with you ppl?
Because I said so...
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:57:00 -
[12]
I bow down to your superior maths, however I've always felt that comparing numbers in radians to be a little artificial, since as you say, 4th significant figure may not seem relevant. How about:
50km mega tracks transverse of 1170m/s, rokh tracks transverse of 1005m/s.
100km mega tracks 2340m/sec, rokh 2010m/s
150km mega tracks 3510 m/sec, rokh 3015
Of course, if we just take a 425mm II _without_ any TCs or TEs we get
Rokh: 0.012, Or with a single tracking computer 0.016
Mega: 0.017
So again at 50km, we're tracking at 600m/sec in the Rokh, vs. 850 with the mega. This of course, scales linearly with range. If I recall correctly, this tracking figure is the 50% hit rate point, where about 3x this velocity is needed to evade fire entirely.
Draw your own conclusions as to relative value.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:05:00 -
[13]
How about with two tracking computers on the Mega?
Two sensor boosters is fine, especially with the T2 ammo range nerf.
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Asariasha
Caldari
Cataclysm Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:11:00 -
[14]
425tech II Railguns
only BS5 given bonus
Mega: weapon signature at 400
Rokh: weapon signature at 500
target: 500m signature radius (Rokh)
no tracking modifying modules added to calc
no ammo added to calc
I used 500 weapon sig for the Rokh to simulate the difference
in signature radius of Megathron and Rokh.
Unfortunately the tracking guide doesnt give the option
for 2targets.
Correct me if this is wrong, but if I give Rokhs weapon
a signature of 400 and let it shoot on a 400m sized target
the graph will be identical.
Tracking Graph
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LoKesh
Amarr
InQuest Ascension
Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: James Lyrus
So again at 50km, we're tracking at 600m/sec in the Rokh, vs. 850 with the mega. This of course, scales linearly with range. If I recall correctly, this tracking figure is the 50% hit rate point, where about 3x this velocity is needed to evade fire entirely.
Draw your own conclusions as to relative value.
James has it exactly - The change from .0050 to .0058 maye seem small, but it represents a 16% change in the ability to track. YES a ship going 2500 m/s is going to be immune to both of these ships - but when you're talking about hitting things moving at a much more reasonable speed (say a BS with a MWD, or some cruisers) the difference becomes apparent.
You need to consider the effect in a comparable range, not just throw up your hands because you think the numbers are small.
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Edited by: Butter Dog on 27/11/2006 18:06:29
How about with two tracking computers on the Mega? Yes, with 2 tracking enhancers in the lows. Fit another mag stab for slighty better DPS.
Two sensor boosters is fine, especially with the T2 ammo range nerf.
juggling TCs and TEs and magstabs is going to make such a small difference in the absolute figures as to be insignificant.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Asariasha
425tech II Railguns
only BS5 given bonus
Mega: weapon signature at 400
Rokh: weapon signature at 500
target: 500m signature radius (Rokh)
no tracking modifying modules added to calc
no ammo added to calc
I used 500 weapon sig for the Rokh to simulate the difference
in signature radius of Megathron and Rokh.
Unfortunately the tracking guide doesnt give the option
for 2targets.
Correct me if this is wrong, but if I give Rokhs weapon
a signature of 400 and let it shoot on a 400m sized target
the graph will be identical.
Tracking Graph
The problem with the graph is that it doesn't take ammo and modules into account. Once that has been accomplished then you will see just how small the difference between the two is.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: LoKesh
Originally by: James Lyrus
So again at 50km, we're tracking at 600m/sec in the Rokh, vs. 850 with the mega. This of course, scales linearly with range. If I recall correctly, this tracking figure is the 50% hit rate point, where about 3x this velocity is needed to evade fire entirely.
Draw your own conclusions as to relative value.
James has it exactly - The change from .0050 to .0058 maye seem small, but it represents a 16% change in the ability to track. YES a ship going 2500 m/s is going to be immune to both of these ships - but when you're talking about hitting things moving at a much more reasonable speed (say a BS with a MWD, or some cruisers) the difference becomes apparent.
You need to consider the effect in a comparable range, not just throw up your hands because you think the numbers are small.
I agree with the math. That being said, the practical application of the numbers is this: at any 'real' sniping range of 100km+ no BS sized target will be moving fast enough to evade either the Rokh or the Mega. Conclusion: tracking doesn't matter.
At ranges inside of 100km where a BS could *possibly* be flying at 1000m+ (but highly unlikely, I've never personally got up to more than a few hundred m/sec in fleet due to the need to be shooting myself and am simply aligned to jump out) the tracking is still irrelevant because if the Rokh is going to miss something at 1km/sec, so is the Mega, and the window of difference where the Rokh may miss something because it's going 610m/sec or something and the Mega might possibly hit it is so STUPIDLY SMALL as to not matter.
You people are nit picking at the details and forgetting the overall practical application of the data. Think of it in terms of real fleet fights FFS and stop trying to find something wrong with the concept. I'm basing the situation off of real world (that's a laugh, considering it's a computer game) situations that actually occure, not theoretical maximums and miniscule possibilities.
You guys are trying to find some esoteric exception to the general theory, and it still doesn't withstand practical revue.
Because I said so...
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Muadeeb Ousil
Minmatar
Office linebackers
Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:53:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Muadeeb Ousil on 27/11/2006 18:54:15
OK so let me get this right, Caldari now have a good fleet ship that costs 170-190 mil? at Tier 3 level. This ship slightly outclasses the previous best Fleet ship in the game - the Megathron; which is Tier 2 level. Previously as we all remember, if a Caldari Tier 2 Battleship pilot showed up for a fleet fight he would promptly be told to F.Off and jump in a Tier 1 Battleship to make himself semi useful.
Remind me where the problem is again.
Ahh ok your unhappy because your new Tier 3 Battleship isnt the best Fleet Ship anymore and is designed (Successfully or not) to be a new blaster boat.
Well Boo Hoo, go and speak to the Minnie or Amarian pilots and cry me a river Murder One -
WHY - because i said so...
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Mar Idoun
Aurora Empire
Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:56:00 -
[20]
what are the numbers for blasters? If there is no difference in blaster tracking then i would agree it's a problem.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Mar Idoun
what are the numbers for blasters? If there is no difference in blaster tracking then i would agree it's a problem.
Thatsa fairly good point. How do the two compare, tracking wise, with blasters equipped?
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Edited by: Muadeeb Ousil on 27/11/2006 18:54:15
OK so let me get this right, Caldari now have a good fleet ship that costs 170-190 mil? at Tier 3 level. This ship slightly outclasses the previous best Fleet ship in the game - the Megathron; which is Tier 2 level. Previously as we all remember, if a Caldari Tier 2 Battleship pilot showed up for a fleet fight he would promptly be told to F.Off and jump in a Tier 1 Battleship to make himself semi useful.
Remind me where the problem is again.
Ahh ok your unhappy because your new Tier 3 Battleship isnt the best Fleet Ship anymore and is designed (Successfully or not) to be a new blaster boat.
Well Boo Hoo, go and speak to the Minnie or Amarian pilots and cry me a river Murder One -
WHY - because i said so...
The point of this thread is to demonstrate that the tracking bonus of the Mega means nothing in practical application. And the point of my other threads is that the Rokh with T1 guns and basic skills far outclasses the Megathron with perfect skills and T2 guns. The difference of which is something like 6-7 million skillpoints. And this doesn't just apply to the Mega, the Minmatar and Amarr suffer from the same issues.
Stop being Obtuse.
For the uneducated:
ob‧tuse /əbˈtus, -ˈtyus/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhb-toos, -tyoos]
ûadjective 1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
3. (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.
4. indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1500û10; < L obtūsus dulled (ptp. of obtundere), equiv. to ob- ob- + tūd-, var. s. of tundere to beat + -tus ptp. suffix, with dt>s]
ùRelated forms
ob‧tuse‧ly, adverb
ob‧tuse‧ness, noun
ùSynonyms 1. unfeeling, tactless, insensitive; blind, imperceptive, unobservant; gauche, boorish; slow, dim.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Mar Idoun
what are the numbers for blasters? If there is no difference in blaster tracking then i would agree it's a problem.
Thatsa fairly good point. How do the two compare, tracking wise, with blasters equipped?
There is no difference with blasters. Why? Because you either web your target and you hit, or you don't web your target and you miss. Simple as that. If you're in blaster range and you don't have your target webbed, you're missing 100% of the time. A web is 100% required to hit your target with BS sized blasters. Anyone telling you otherwise is full of sh#t.
And since your target is webbed, it doesn't matter what sort of tracking bonuses you have on anything. My Hype hits just as often as my Rokh and my Mega at 4km because I have my target webbed to hell.
Because I said so...
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Nicocat
Caldari
New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:06:00 -
[24]
Yes, tracking boosts don't matter at all. *waves his nanophoon flag* =P
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Buying Sabres. EVEmail or convo me in game! |
madaluap
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
Exquisite Malevolance
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:15:00 -
[25]
Edited by: madaluap on 27/11/2006 20:15:33
Why dont you just fit 350mm 2 on the rokh, its 7% less basedps, more tracking and with optimalbonus just as good as the 425mm 2 on a mega...
If you taking fitting into account the 350mm 2 railgun will outdamage the 425mm 2 on a rokh, because you have room for more damagemods.
Better tracking, same range, more dps, better tanking (extenders)
Oh yeh did i mention you can buy 44 350mm 2 for the price of 7 425mm2
WAKE UP EVE!!
_________________________________________________
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Asariasha
Caldari
Cataclysm Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:19:00 -
[26]
Btw, the graph I had posted had 10%opti range bonus per lvl
Caldari BS. Don't know when it was changed to 5% per lvl just
saw that bonus listed in another topic.
So, when you draw the graph again including tracking comps and
ammo bonus you come out with something that is pretty close to
the graph I posted before.
Rokhs tracking with 425mm II will face a hard drop in hit ratio
at around 60km. At Megas opti range the Rokh has about 10% less
to-hit ratio. At the point when Megas hit ratio has dropped to
75%, the Rokhs to-hit chance will be already below 50%.
But I guess murder one will push this into the lands of myth
again, because tracking is something irrelevant in PvP
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:19:00 -
[27]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: James Lyrus
And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
The tracking ratio between the two ships doesn't change. If one is shooting at a target with enough transverse to miss, so will the other. I'm not sure I understand why you're confused. 425mm rails have such **** poor tracking that any little degree of transversal will cause you to miss. I'm showing that no amount of tracking bonus or tracking comps etc. will allow you to hit something if he has even the slightest amount of transverse. If you're going to miss when the target is doing 150m/sec trans at 200km, you're sure as hell going to miss (with both ships) at 35km.
What is so god****ed hard about this ****?
Not quite, its that the number of ships that are able to hit the magical tracking hole of the Rohk compared to the Megathron is small. Most ships that can breach the tracking can breach it easily, ships that cant usualy cant come close to breaching it.
So the tracking bonus wont really come into play unless you are shooting at small, decently fast ships outside of web range.
Since you dont really have to worry about cruisers at short ranges outside of web range and frigates at longer ranges except as possible tacklers the tracking bonus doesnt have an effect in the majority of combat unless you plan on shooting a lot of cruisers and frigs in medium/short range with railguns.
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Tribunal
FIRMA
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:22:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Edited by: Muadeeb Ousil on 27/11/2006 18:54:15
OK so let me get this right, Caldari now have a good fleet ship that costs 170-190 mil? at Tier 3 level. This ship slightly outclasses the previous best Fleet ship in the game - the Megathron; which is Tier 2 level. Previously as we all remember, if a Caldari Tier 2 Battleship pilot showed up for a fleet fight he would promptly be told to F.Off and jump in a Tier 1 Battleship to make himself semi useful.
Remind me where the problem is again.
Ahh ok your unhappy because your new Tier 3 Battleship isnt the best Fleet Ship anymore and is designed (Successfully or not) to be a new blaster boat.
Well Boo Hoo, go and speak to the Minnie or Amarian pilots and cry me a river Murder One -
WHY - because i said so...
If slightly is defined as "no one else can shoot as far by a 50km+ margin" then yes, it's slightly outclassing the other sniper ships.
Just for the record, the Megathron was never the best "fleet" BS.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Muadeeb Ousil
Minmatar
Office linebackers
Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:23:00 -
[29]
Your completely missing the point here, your mind is wrapped up in your own little world of semi-importance that it fails to notice a basic essential of this patch.
The Mega isn't changing, it isn't changing repeat those words many times until you get it into your tiny little mind and get to grasp with this fact, its been the best long range Tier 2 ship for a long time and its still the best Tier 2 ship for long range engagements.
This is Revelations -
Discuss the attributes of the Tier 3 Battleships by all accounts, the merits and demerits; but comparing a Tier 3 ship to a Tier 2 ship is about as stupid as it gets.
IT'S MEANT TO BE BETTER, thats why it costs more.
Maybe the next uber long range Battleship will be Amarian or Mini in Tier 4, until then get to grips with the fact that the Best Tier 2 Long range ship is outclassed by the best Tier 3 Long range ship.
What the hell do you not understand about that?
Go and cut and paste another segment out of a dictionary, while your wasting time doing this go and reflect on the above facts.
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Your completely missing the point here, your mind is wrapped up in your own little world of semi-importance that it fails to notice a basic essential of this patch.
The Mega isn't changing, it isn't changing repeat those words many times until you get it into your tiny little mind and get to grasp with this fact, its been the best long range Tier 2 ship for a long time and its still the best Tier 2 ship for long range engagements.
This is Revelations -
Discuss the attributes of the Tier 3 Battleships by all accounts, the merits and demerits; but comparing a Tier 3 ship to a Tier 2 ship is about as stupid as it gets.
IT'S MEANT TO BE BETTER, thats why it costs more.
Maybe the next uber long range Battleship will be Amarian or Mini in Tier 4, until then get to grips with the fact that the Best Tier 2 Long range ship is outclassed by the best Tier 3 Long range ship.
What the hell do you not understand about that?
Go and cut and paste another segment out of a dictionary, while your wasting time doing this go and reflect on the above facts.
Whatever. I'm sick of explaining simple concepts to stupid people. Fleet will be filled with wings of Rokhs and T1 guns sniping at each other at 249km away fro here on out. It's retarded, but that's whats going to happen. Everyone seems to think that the other BSs will be able to compete. Come back and look at this thread in three months when everyone is in a Rokh.
Because I said so...
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