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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:22:00 -
[1]
Assuming Maxed skills:
Rokh with 2x Tracking comps (t2) and 2x Tracking enhancers (t2)- this is the optimal configuration for the Rokh due to it's low slot layout.
Tracking-
Spike: 0.005026 (rounded to six decimals should suffice)
T1 ammo: 0.020104
Megathron with 1x Tracking comp, (t2) and 3x Tracking enhancers (t2)- this is the optimal setup for the Mega due to it's low/mid slot config.
Tracking-
Spike: 0.005852
T1 ammo: 0.023410
So if you look at the above numbers, the tracking difference between the two ships is almost zero. The tracking is SO bad for each that I have to run the numbers out to six decimal places just to get a meaningful measurement. ADDITIONALLY, the tracking for the Rokh is FAR GREATER than the Mega when you compare the Rokh using T1 ammo, and the Mega having to use T2 ammo in order to reach as far as the Rokh can (out to 185km for the Mega using spike).
So basically what is happening here is this: at long range, the Rokh can use T1 ammo where the Mega is limited to T2 ammo, and has superior tracking over the Mega, even with it's tracking bonus. But I've already shown that this doesn't matter one bit anyway, as the tracking is so low with any form of ammo regardless of what ship it is as to be a negligable factor when determining if you're going to hit something or not.
It's not that tracking is unimportant, it is important. The point is that if something is moving fast enough that the Rokh will miss due to high transversal, then the Mega is going to miss as well, even with it's tracking bonus.
Now that I have made this perfectly clear, can EVERYONE THAT IS HUNG UP ON THIS TRACKING BONUS THING PLEASE STFU.
Thanks in advance.
Because I said so...
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:24:00 -
[2]
And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:27:00 -
[3]
Originally by: James Lyrus And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
The tracking ratio between the two ships doesn't change. If one is shooting at a target with enough transverse to miss, so will the other. I'm not sure I understand why you're confused. 425mm rails have such **** poor tracking that any little degree of transversal will cause you to miss. I'm showing that no amount of tracking bonus or tracking comps etc. will allow you to hit something if he has even the slightest amount of transverse. If you're going to miss when the target is doing 150m/sec trans at 200km, you're sure as hell going to miss (with both ships) at 35km.
What is so god****ed hard about this ****?
Because I said so...
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:35:00 -
[4]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: James Lyrus And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
The tracking ratio between the two ships doesn't change. If one is shooting at a target with enough transverse to miss, so will the other. I'm not sure I understand why you're confused. 425mm rails have such **** poor tracking that any little degree of transversal will cause you to miss. I'm showing that no amount of tracking bonus or tracking comps etc. will allow you to hit something if he has even the slightest amount of transverse. If you're going to miss when the target is doing 150m/sec trans at 200km, you're sure as hell going to miss (with both ships) at 35km.
What is so god****ed hard about this ****?
If you fit 2 tracking enhances in the lows of a rokh, a mega will out dps you by a wide margin. You have to put 2 RCU's in the lows of a rohk to fit a full rack of 425mm tech II rails. leaving you with 1 mag stab II
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:37:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: James Lyrus And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
The tracking ratio between the two ships doesn't change. If one is shooting at a target with enough transverse to miss, so will the other. I'm not sure I understand why you're confused. 425mm rails have such **** poor tracking that any little degree of transversal will cause you to miss. I'm showing that no amount of tracking bonus or tracking comps etc. will allow you to hit something if he has even the slightest amount of transverse. If you're going to miss when the target is doing 150m/sec trans at 200km, you're sure as hell going to miss (with both ships) at 35km.
What is so god****ed hard about this ****?
If you fit 2 tracking enhances in the lows of a rokh, a mega will out dps you by a wide margin. You have to put 2 RCU's in the lows of a rohk to fit a full rack of 425mm tech II rails. leaving you with 1 mag stab II
No you friggin retard. Fit 3x grid rigs and that gives you +33% grid. Get a friggin clue.
Because I said so...
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Scythus Aratan
Bad Karma.
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:40:00 -
[6]
One grid rig takes 200 calibration, how much does a Rokh have?
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Scythus Aratan One grid rig takes 200 calibration, how much does a Rokh have?
no, it's 100
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Scythus Aratan One grid rig takes 200 calibration, how much does a Rokh have?
Rokh has 400 points, each grid rig is 100 points each and provides 10% increase in grid, and the stacking is compounded, so that when you add three grid rigs it's +33% grid. I've done it, I know how it works. It's great.
Because I said so...
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: James Lyrus And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
The tracking ratio between the two ships doesn't change. If one is shooting at a target with enough transverse to miss, so will the other. I'm not sure I understand why you're confused. 425mm rails have such **** poor tracking that any little degree of transversal will cause you to miss. I'm showing that no amount of tracking bonus or tracking comps etc. will allow you to hit something if he has even the slightest amount of transverse. If you're going to miss when the target is doing 150m/sec trans at 200km, you're sure as hell going to miss (with both ships) at 35km.
What is so god****ed hard about this ****?
If you fit 2 tracking enhances in the lows of a rokh, a mega will out dps you by a wide margin. You have to put 2 RCU's in the lows of a rohk to fit a full rack of 425mm tech II rails. leaving you with 1 mag stab II
No you friggin retard. Fit 3x grid rigs and that gives you +33% grid. Get a friggin clue.
fit a damage and a ro rig on the mega, use that extra lowslot on the mega with a dcu.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:52:00 -
[10]
Would you please count in the following things to your unfinished maths:
- transversal speed of 200-250m/s - signature radi of both ships (mega 400m/rokh 500m) - 2nd TrackingComp for mega (usually you fit 2)
This would give you far far more realistic comparison and shows that Rokhs tracking at close range is much more worse than a megas tracking.
So, please stop to post unfinished calculations/charts which miss some important points. This leads only to distorted results.
Greets Asa
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:57:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Asariasha Would you please count in the following things to your unfinished maths:
- transversal speed of 200-250m/s - signature radi of both ships (mega 400m/rokh 500m) - 2nd TrackingComp for mega (usually you fit 2)
This would give you far far more realistic comparison and shows that Rokhs tracking at close range is much more worse than a megas tracking.
So, please stop to post unfinished calculations/charts which miss some important points. This leads only to distorted results.
Greets Asa
A second tracking comp on the mega is redundant after you fit 3x tracking enhancers in the lows and one TC in the mids. If you knew anything about ship setups, you wouldn't even bring this up.
Sig radius doens't matter, as anything BS sized will be hit just fine.
And actual transverse numbers don't matter, as the WHOLE POINT of the original post is that the tracking numbers are so close to each other in value as to NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO. IF ONE SHIP WILL MISS DUE TO TRANSVERSE, SO WILL THE OTHER.
WTF is WRONG with you ppl?
Because I said so...
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 17:57:00 -
[12]
I bow down to your superior maths, however I've always felt that comparing numbers in radians to be a little artificial, since as you say, 4th significant figure may not seem relevant. How about:
50km mega tracks transverse of 1170m/s, rokh tracks transverse of 1005m/s. 100km mega tracks 2340m/sec, rokh 2010m/s 150km mega tracks 3510 m/sec, rokh 3015
Of course, if we just take a 425mm II _without_ any TCs or TEs we get
Rokh: 0.012, Or with a single tracking computer 0.016 Mega: 0.017
So again at 50km, we're tracking at 600m/sec in the Rokh, vs. 850 with the mega. This of course, scales linearly with range. If I recall correctly, this tracking figure is the 50% hit rate point, where about 3x this velocity is needed to evade fire entirely.
Draw your own conclusions as to relative value.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:05:00 -
[13]
How about with two tracking computers on the Mega?
Two sensor boosters is fine, especially with the T2 ammo range nerf.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:11:00 -
[14]
425tech II Railguns only BS5 given bonus
Mega: weapon signature at 400 Rokh: weapon signature at 500
target: 500m signature radius (Rokh) no tracking modifying modules added to calc no ammo added to calc
I used 500 weapon sig for the Rokh to simulate the difference in signature radius of Megathron and Rokh. Unfortunately the tracking guide doesnt give the option for 2targets. Correct me if this is wrong, but if I give Rokhs weapon a signature of 400 and let it shoot on a 400m sized target the graph will be identical.
Tracking Graph
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LoKesh
Amarr InQuest Ascension Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: James Lyrus
So again at 50km, we're tracking at 600m/sec in the Rokh, vs. 850 with the mega. This of course, scales linearly with range. If I recall correctly, this tracking figure is the 50% hit rate point, where about 3x this velocity is needed to evade fire entirely.
Draw your own conclusions as to relative value.
James has it exactly - The change from .0050 to .0058 maye seem small, but it represents a 16% change in the ability to track. YES a ship going 2500 m/s is going to be immune to both of these ships - but when you're talking about hitting things moving at a much more reasonable speed (say a BS with a MWD, or some cruisers) the difference becomes apparent.
You need to consider the effect in a comparable range, not just throw up your hands because you think the numbers are small.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 27/11/2006 18:06:29 How about with two tracking computers on the Mega? Yes, with 2 tracking enhancers in the lows. Fit another mag stab for slighty better DPS.
Two sensor boosters is fine, especially with the T2 ammo range nerf.
juggling TCs and TEs and magstabs is going to make such a small difference in the absolute figures as to be insignificant.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Asariasha 425tech II Railguns only BS5 given bonus
Mega: weapon signature at 400 Rokh: weapon signature at 500
target: 500m signature radius (Rokh) no tracking modifying modules added to calc no ammo added to calc
I used 500 weapon sig for the Rokh to simulate the difference in signature radius of Megathron and Rokh. Unfortunately the tracking guide doesnt give the option for 2targets. Correct me if this is wrong, but if I give Rokhs weapon a signature of 400 and let it shoot on a 400m sized target the graph will be identical.
Tracking Graph
The problem with the graph is that it doesn't take ammo and modules into account. Once that has been accomplished then you will see just how small the difference between the two is.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: LoKesh
Originally by: James Lyrus
So again at 50km, we're tracking at 600m/sec in the Rokh, vs. 850 with the mega. This of course, scales linearly with range. If I recall correctly, this tracking figure is the 50% hit rate point, where about 3x this velocity is needed to evade fire entirely.
Draw your own conclusions as to relative value.
James has it exactly - The change from .0050 to .0058 maye seem small, but it represents a 16% change in the ability to track. YES a ship going 2500 m/s is going to be immune to both of these ships - but when you're talking about hitting things moving at a much more reasonable speed (say a BS with a MWD, or some cruisers) the difference becomes apparent.
You need to consider the effect in a comparable range, not just throw up your hands because you think the numbers are small.
I agree with the math. That being said, the practical application of the numbers is this: at any 'real' sniping range of 100km+ no BS sized target will be moving fast enough to evade either the Rokh or the Mega. Conclusion: tracking doesn't matter.
At ranges inside of 100km where a BS could *possibly* be flying at 1000m+ (but highly unlikely, I've never personally got up to more than a few hundred m/sec in fleet due to the need to be shooting myself and am simply aligned to jump out) the tracking is still irrelevant because if the Rokh is going to miss something at 1km/sec, so is the Mega, and the window of difference where the Rokh may miss something because it's going 610m/sec or something and the Mega might possibly hit it is so STUPIDLY SMALL as to not matter.
You people are nit picking at the details and forgetting the overall practical application of the data. Think of it in terms of real fleet fights FFS and stop trying to find something wrong with the concept. I'm basing the situation off of real world (that's a laugh, considering it's a computer game) situations that actually occure, not theoretical maximums and miniscule possibilities.
You guys are trying to find some esoteric exception to the general theory, and it still doesn't withstand practical revue.
Because I said so...
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Muadeeb Ousil
Minmatar Office linebackers Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:53:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Muadeeb Ousil on 27/11/2006 18:54:15
OK so let me get this right, Caldari now have a good fleet ship that costs 170-190 mil? at Tier 3 level. This ship slightly outclasses the previous best Fleet ship in the game - the Megathron; which is Tier 2 level. Previously as we all remember, if a Caldari Tier 2 Battleship pilot showed up for a fleet fight he would promptly be told to F.Off and jump in a Tier 1 Battleship to make himself semi useful.
Remind me where the problem is again.
Ahh ok your unhappy because your new Tier 3 Battleship isnt the best Fleet Ship anymore and is designed (Successfully or not) to be a new blaster boat.
Well Boo Hoo, go and speak to the Minnie or Amarian pilots and cry me a river Murder One -
WHY - because i said so...
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Mar Idoun
Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
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Posted - 2006.11.27 18:56:00 -
[20]
what are the numbers for blasters? If there is no difference in blaster tracking then i would agree it's a problem.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Mar Idoun what are the numbers for blasters? If there is no difference in blaster tracking then i would agree it's a problem.
Thatsa fairly good point. How do the two compare, tracking wise, with blasters equipped? -----------------------------------------------
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil Edited by: Muadeeb Ousil on 27/11/2006 18:54:15
OK so let me get this right, Caldari now have a good fleet ship that costs 170-190 mil? at Tier 3 level. This ship slightly outclasses the previous best Fleet ship in the game - the Megathron; which is Tier 2 level. Previously as we all remember, if a Caldari Tier 2 Battleship pilot showed up for a fleet fight he would promptly be told to F.Off and jump in a Tier 1 Battleship to make himself semi useful.
Remind me where the problem is again.
Ahh ok your unhappy because your new Tier 3 Battleship isnt the best Fleet Ship anymore and is designed (Successfully or not) to be a new blaster boat.
Well Boo Hoo, go and speak to the Minnie or Amarian pilots and cry me a river Murder One -
WHY - because i said so...
The point of this thread is to demonstrate that the tracking bonus of the Mega means nothing in practical application. And the point of my other threads is that the Rokh with T1 guns and basic skills far outclasses the Megathron with perfect skills and T2 guns. The difference of which is something like 6-7 million skillpoints. And this doesn't just apply to the Mega, the Minmatar and Amarr suffer from the same issues.
Stop being Obtuse.
For the uneducated:
ob‧tuse /əbˈtus, -ˈtyus/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhb-toos, -tyoos]
ûadjective 1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull. 2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form. 3. (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity. 4. indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1500û10; < L obtūsus dulled (ptp. of obtundere), equiv. to ob- ob- + tūd-, var. s. of tundere to beat + -tus ptp. suffix, with dt>s]
ùRelated forms ob‧tuse‧ly, adverb ob‧tuse‧ness, noun
ùSynonyms 1. unfeeling, tactless, insensitive; blind, imperceptive, unobservant; gauche, boorish; slow, dim.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 19:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Mar Idoun what are the numbers for blasters? If there is no difference in blaster tracking then i would agree it's a problem.
Thatsa fairly good point. How do the two compare, tracking wise, with blasters equipped?
There is no difference with blasters. Why? Because you either web your target and you hit, or you don't web your target and you miss. Simple as that. If you're in blaster range and you don't have your target webbed, you're missing 100% of the time. A web is 100% required to hit your target with BS sized blasters. Anyone telling you otherwise is full of sh#t.
And since your target is webbed, it doesn't matter what sort of tracking bonuses you have on anything. My Hype hits just as often as my Rokh and my Mega at 4km because I have my target webbed to hell.
Because I said so...
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Nicocat
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:06:00 -
[24]
Yes, tracking boosts don't matter at all. *waves his nanophoon flag* =P ---------------------------- Buying Sabres. EVEmail or convo me in game! |
madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolance
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:15:00 -
[25]
Edited by: madaluap on 27/11/2006 20:15:33 Why dont you just fit 350mm 2 on the rokh, its 7% less basedps, more tracking and with optimalbonus just as good as the 425mm 2 on a mega...
If you taking fitting into account the 350mm 2 railgun will outdamage the 425mm 2 on a rokh, because you have room for more damagemods.
Better tracking, same range, more dps, better tanking (extenders)
Oh yeh did i mention you can buy 44 350mm 2 for the price of 7 425mm2
WAKE UP EVE!! _________________________________________________
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:19:00 -
[26]
Btw, the graph I had posted had 10%opti range bonus per lvl Caldari BS. Don't know when it was changed to 5% per lvl just saw that bonus listed in another topic. So, when you draw the graph again including tracking comps and ammo bonus you come out with something that is pretty close to the graph I posted before.
Rokhs tracking with 425mm II will face a hard drop in hit ratio at around 60km. At Megas opti range the Rokh has about 10% less to-hit ratio. At the point when Megas hit ratio has dropped to 75%, the Rokhs to-hit chance will be already below 50%.
But I guess murder one will push this into the lands of myth again, because tracking is something irrelevant in PvP
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:19:00 -
[27]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: James Lyrus And at antimatter/javelin ranges?
The tracking ratio between the two ships doesn't change. If one is shooting at a target with enough transverse to miss, so will the other. I'm not sure I understand why you're confused. 425mm rails have such **** poor tracking that any little degree of transversal will cause you to miss. I'm showing that no amount of tracking bonus or tracking comps etc. will allow you to hit something if he has even the slightest amount of transverse. If you're going to miss when the target is doing 150m/sec trans at 200km, you're sure as hell going to miss (with both ships) at 35km.
What is so god****ed hard about this ****?
Not quite, its that the number of ships that are able to hit the magical tracking hole of the Rohk compared to the Megathron is small. Most ships that can breach the tracking can breach it easily, ships that cant usualy cant come close to breaching it.
So the tracking bonus wont really come into play unless you are shooting at small, decently fast ships outside of web range.
Since you dont really have to worry about cruisers at short ranges outside of web range and frigates at longer ranges except as possible tacklers the tracking bonus doesnt have an effect in the majority of combat unless you plan on shooting a lot of cruisers and frigs in medium/short range with railguns.
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Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:22:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil Edited by: Muadeeb Ousil on 27/11/2006 18:54:15
OK so let me get this right, Caldari now have a good fleet ship that costs 170-190 mil? at Tier 3 level. This ship slightly outclasses the previous best Fleet ship in the game - the Megathron; which is Tier 2 level. Previously as we all remember, if a Caldari Tier 2 Battleship pilot showed up for a fleet fight he would promptly be told to F.Off and jump in a Tier 1 Battleship to make himself semi useful.
Remind me where the problem is again.
Ahh ok your unhappy because your new Tier 3 Battleship isnt the best Fleet Ship anymore and is designed (Successfully or not) to be a new blaster boat.
Well Boo Hoo, go and speak to the Minnie or Amarian pilots and cry me a river Murder One -
WHY - because i said so...
If slightly is defined as "no one else can shoot as far by a 50km+ margin" then yes, it's slightly outclassing the other sniper ships.
Just for the record, the Megathron was never the best "fleet" BS.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Muadeeb Ousil
Minmatar Office linebackers Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:23:00 -
[29]
Your completely missing the point here, your mind is wrapped up in your own little world of semi-importance that it fails to notice a basic essential of this patch.
The Mega isn't changing, it isn't changing repeat those words many times until you get it into your tiny little mind and get to grasp with this fact, its been the best long range Tier 2 ship for a long time and its still the best Tier 2 ship for long range engagements.
This is Revelations -
Discuss the attributes of the Tier 3 Battleships by all accounts, the merits and demerits; but comparing a Tier 3 ship to a Tier 2 ship is about as stupid as it gets.
IT'S MEANT TO BE BETTER, thats why it costs more.
Maybe the next uber long range Battleship will be Amarian or Mini in Tier 4, until then get to grips with the fact that the Best Tier 2 Long range ship is outclassed by the best Tier 3 Long range ship.
What the hell do you not understand about that?
Go and cut and paste another segment out of a dictionary, while your wasting time doing this go and reflect on the above facts.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Your completely missing the point here, your mind is wrapped up in your own little world of semi-importance that it fails to notice a basic essential of this patch.
The Mega isn't changing, it isn't changing repeat those words many times until you get it into your tiny little mind and get to grasp with this fact, its been the best long range Tier 2 ship for a long time and its still the best Tier 2 ship for long range engagements.
This is Revelations -
Discuss the attributes of the Tier 3 Battleships by all accounts, the merits and demerits; but comparing a Tier 3 ship to a Tier 2 ship is about as stupid as it gets.
IT'S MEANT TO BE BETTER, thats why it costs more.
Maybe the next uber long range Battleship will be Amarian or Mini in Tier 4, until then get to grips with the fact that the Best Tier 2 Long range ship is outclassed by the best Tier 3 Long range ship.
What the hell do you not understand about that?
Go and cut and paste another segment out of a dictionary, while your wasting time doing this go and reflect on the above facts.
Whatever. I'm sick of explaining simple concepts to stupid people. Fleet will be filled with wings of Rokhs and T1 guns sniping at each other at 249km away fro here on out. It's retarded, but that's whats going to happen. Everyone seems to think that the other BSs will be able to compete. Come back and look at this thread in three months when everyone is in a Rokh.
Because I said so...
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Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:44:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Your completely missing the point here, your mind is wrapped up in your own little world of semi-importance that it fails to notice a basic essential of this patch.
The Mega isn't changing, it isn't changing repeat those words many times until you get it into your tiny little mind and get to grasp with this fact, its been the best long range Tier 2 ship for a long time and its still the best Tier 2 ship for long range engagements.
This is Revelations -
Discuss the attributes of the Tier 3 Battleships by all accounts, the merits and demerits; but comparing a Tier 3 ship to a Tier 2 ship is about as stupid as it gets.
IT'S MEANT TO BE BETTER, thats why it costs more.
Maybe the next uber long range Battleship will be Amarian or Mini in Tier 4, until then get to grips with the fact that the Best Tier 2 Long range ship is outclassed by the best Tier 3 Long range ship.
What the hell do you not understand about that?
Go and cut and paste another segment out of a dictionary, while your wasting time doing this go and reflect on the above facts.
Ok then, the Rokh outdistances EVERY tier 3 battleship by 50km+ which makes all of them pointless for fleet combat. Happy now?
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 20:56:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 27/11/2006 21:14:27
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Discuss the attributes of the Tier 3 Battleships by all accounts, the merits and demerits; but comparing a Tier 3 ship to a Tier 2 ship is about as stupid as it gets.
IT'S MEANT TO BE BETTER, thats why it costs more.
This is a crap argument. It has been debunked several times. It is simply getting OLD.
Devs have said "different, not better". I'm tired of this rubbish. Are you saying that the Mega is better than the Domi? That the Tempest is better than the Phoon? That the Raven is better than the Scorp?
If so, you would be wrong on EVERY ACCOUNT.
Given that, I'm not sure why the devs insist on this "tier" stuff anyway. It is a broken paradigm, especially since THEY have said "different, not better".
Quote: Maybe the next uber long range Battleship will be Amarian or Mini in Tier 4, until then get to grips with the fact that the Best Tier 2 Long range ship is outclassed by the best Tier 3 Long range ship. What the hell do you not understand about that?
Oh my GAWAAAAAAD. You think that OBSOLESCENCE is the answer to balance in this game?
EDIT: Just in case you are all like "OOOO WELL PROOOOOOOOVE A DEv SED EEEET!" OK, fine! LINKY
Originally by: Tuxford Just to ease your minds then I have this to say about the tier 3 ships. They are only called tier 3 ships that doesn't mean that they will just be better than the other two battleship. In fact tier 2 battleships aren't necessarily better for every situation than tier 1 battleships. In some situations you'd prefer a scorpion over a raven, a dominix over a mega, an arma over an apoc. Typhoon has its own issues which the recent bonus changes should fix.
The key thing is to make it different, not better. Its pretty obvious for me that the Caldari will be a railboat. Saying that its a missile race not a turret race is simply not true. Its just like saying Gallente are drone race not a turret race. Caldari use missiles and railguns like Gallente use drones and blasters. Well they can in reality use both railguns and blasters though.
As for stats that are on them now then they are hardly final and all speculation about them at this point is just that, speculation.
Case closed, end of discussion.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 21:15:00 -
[33]
Well Tribunal, just to get away from your 50km lets do it a more "percentual" way...
Why does a Rokh outdistance/outshieldtank other ships by 25% ? Why does a Megathron outdmg/outtrack other ships by 25%/37,5% ? Why does a Tempest outdmg/outRoF other ships by 25% ?
...well it is an easy question which can easily be answered. It is a decision of game design a way to differentiate the existing races from each other. Every ship has it's niche and fullfils roles while it has some weak spots. Of course you could just apply the same bonus on every ship just making its look and textures being the difference, but then the game would become boring. You wouldn't have to think about tactics while facing an opponent. The main problem is that many people here don't seem to understand this fact.
Caldari are good at hybrid long ranged combat adding EW Gallente are good hybrid close range combat adding Drones Minmatar are good in projectile combat facing its pros and cons adding they are the Speedy Gonzales of EvE Amarr are the laser guys who have to face its pros and cons
There will always be special situations in which you better get away with your ship.
Gallenteans never have been ment to be the best snipers. Actually they have never been Gallentean sniper ships, because none of it has got a bonus to range. From the beginning of EvE Caldari has been the race with given range bonus to hybrids missing a battleship sized vessel to fullfill this role. Now, Caldaris have this ship and I can only suggest to accept it.
And no, you will never see a fullfleet of Rokhs. This is just a "murder one" myth a player who can not accept or adapt to new situations.
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 21:22:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Asariasha Well Tribunal, just to get away from your 50km lets do it a more "percentual" way...
Why does a Rokh outdistance/outshieldtank other ships by 25% ? Why does a Megathron outdmg/outtrack other ships by 25%/37,5% ? Why does a Tempest outdmg/outRoF other ships by 25% ?
The problem here is that your argument is wrong.
The Megathron does not outdamage other ships by 25% (primarily due to the Spike nerf), because the Rokh can just load up best named T1 guns and T1 ammo and do the same damage at the same distance.
The Megathron's tracking is also a moot point (this is been discussed ad nauseum, yet people cling to it). I'll explain why BRIEFLY: - For blasters, if you don't web your target, you aren't going to hit it whether you have tracking or not (as evidenced by experiments in the Hyperion. - For rails (ie. looong distance combat) the tracking bonus doesn't matter because the targets are so far away. Typically, if a Megathron can hit it with its tracking bonus, so can any other ship. The tracking with these long range setups is simply so poor that if the Megathron can hit it with Spike, the Rokh can easily hit it as well by using shorter range T1 ammo (doing equal damage, and not suffering from the tracking penalty of Spike).
So please stop using these tired old crappy arguments, they don't do the game balance any justice.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 21:29:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Asariasha Well Tribunal, just to get away from your 50km lets do it a more "percentual" way...
Why does a Rokh outdistance/outshieldtank other ships by 25% ? Why does a Megathron outdmg/outtrack other ships by 25%/37,5% ? Why does a Tempest outdmg/outRoF other ships by 25% ?
The problem is that because are talking about fleet battles here the question is not "Why does the rokh outdistance/outshieldtank other ships by 50%/33%?"
The question is "Why does the Rokh outdamage other ships by inf% and out tank them by inf%?"
The issue of long range in fleet encounters is that the Rokh doesnt just "out range them" its that range equals damage. The Rokh will take zero damage from battleships that are not Rokh's [and HAC's that are not Eagles, Command Ships that are not Vultures, and any other ship type aside from captal class ships]. When a fleet shows up with armageddons you can still shoot them with Mega's, when a fleet shows up with Mega's you can still shoot them with Hyperions. The small damage difference is important, but not so much that a fleet of one will utterly obliterate a fleet of the other with zero losses.
If a fleet of Rokhs shows up, nothing can hit them. They will take ZERO damage until the opposing fleet can move at least 20+km. At which point they will have a 50% damage advantage. After the opposing fleet has moved 40km the advantage will be equal, 50 KM and the opposing fleet will be OK.
This means that in order to challenge a fleet of Rokhs you need either capital class ships, Rokhs of your own, or enough pilots in ships fast enough to traverse 100+KM of space before getting anhilated so your fleet can warp to them inside the Rokh fleet's optimal[and hope you arent inside a bubble.
The only other thing you can do is run.
Nothing can make up this gap, not skills, not modules, more battleships, nothing short of capital class ships.
Its not that the Rokh doesnt "fill a role" or that other ships dont fill a role, its that in the role that the Rokh fills, which is a prime role for battleships, not other battleship can even come close to competing.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.27 21:49:00 -
[36]
Well the magic word - close range. But this seems to be a non-existant thing for some people...i guess another myth.
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Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.27 21:56:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Asariasha Well the magic word - close range. But this seems to be a non-existant thing for some people...i guess another myth.
For large fleet battles close ranged combat is mostly a myth.
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:05:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Asariasha Well the magic word - close range. But this seems to be a non-existant thing for some people...i guess another myth.
Yes, and no one is complaining that the Rokh is going to be a superduper blaster boat, they are complaining that it will obsolete all other ships in fleet battles. Fleet battles dont happen at short range, and if they do, one side has seriously messed up.
It has messed up so bad that it wouldnt have mattered if it brought any ships to the battle, because close range for any sniper setup=death. The megatron is 25% better than the Rokh inside 30km... but for a fleet setup this means... "The megathron is 25% better than useless under 30km". Coincidentally, 1.25 x "useless" is still "useless".
I mean, lets say we had a ship that had a module that only it could operate, used zero cap, and within 20km it was a 100% perfect ECM against all ships not also running that module. This would obviously be overpowered, because the only ships that could compete in short range combat would be that ship.
That is what the Rokh is to fleet battles, its equivelent to a 100% effective AoE ECM that works on all ships except Rokhs and uses no capacitor. No ship but the rokh[aside from cap ships] can deal damage to a rokh in a fleet battle. All other ships are obsolete.
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Muadeeb Ousil
Minmatar Office linebackers Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:35:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Muadeeb Ousil on 27/11/2006 22:38:08
Fleet Commanders have had to deal with a long ranged ship since Tier 2 came out, its called the Megathron, funnily enough its tracking and damage type wasn't to bad either.
Yet fleet battles still happen, Why because its rare for a complete fleet to be dominated by one ship - people train different races and have been doing so since the game started. Most will stick behind the specialisation to stay the best they can be with their ship type.
The only thing that changes from Revelations is that you can replace the name of the Mega with the name of the Rokh. The tactics remain the same for dealing with either before/after the patch.
Ohh and lots of Mega pilots come to forums to complain that they need to spend time retraining not a new weapon but a new ship, and Caldari pilots come to the forum to complain they have to learn a new weapon type.
Meanwhile the Minnie and Amarr pilots scratch their heads and wonder WTF they are both complaining about because they think the Caldari/Gallente pilots have it easy in comparison, because to get in the shiny, new, long range ship they need to not only train the weapon type but also the ship.
So WTF are Mega pilots complaining about again?
I've got no problem listening to Amarr and Minie pilots complaining about the Rohk but not Gallente pilots.
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Loud Speaker
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:43:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil Edited by: Muadeeb Ousil on 27/11/2006 22:38:08
Fleet Commanders have had to deal with a long ranged ship since Tier 2 came out, its called the Megathron, funnily enough its tracking and damage type wasn't to bad either.
Yet fleet battles still happen, Why because its rare for a complete fleet to be dominated by one ship - people train different races and have been doing so since the game started. Most will stick behind the specialisation to stay the best they can be with their ship type.
The only thing that changes from Revelations is that you can replace the name of the Mega with the name of the Rokh. The tactics remain the same for dealing with either before/after the patch.
Ohh and lots of Mega pilots come to forums to complain that they need to spend time retraining not a new weapon but a new ship, and Caldari pilots come to the forum to complain they have to learn a new weapon type.
Meanwhile the Minnie and Amarr pilots scratch their heads and wonder WTF they are both complaining about because they think the Caldari/Gallente pilots have it easy in comparison, because to get in the shiny, new, long range ship they need to not only train the weapon type but also the ship.
So WTF are Mega pilots complaining about again?
I've got no problem listening to Amarr and Minie pilots complaining about the Rohk but not Gallente pilots.
I mentioned this in the other thread. Perhaps Minmatar and Amarr can take comfort in the fact that they wont need to train large guns to lvl 5 and large railgun spec
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:49:00 -
[41]
The Mega didnt outrange any other long range ships... Not by any significant amount. The difference between the mega and the everything else at the time is small compared to the difference between the rokh and everything else.
The t2 gun introduction is a perfect example. When t2 guns were introduced it was "bring t2 weapons or dont bother coming"
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 22:58:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Asariasha Well the magic word - close range. But this seems to be a non-existant thing for some people...i guess another myth.
Yes, and no one is complaining that the Rokh is going to be a superduper blaster boat, they are complaining that it will obsolete all other ships in fleet battles.
Actually, we are... we're just doing it in another thread. Rokh = 4 blasters + 4 NOS + godly tank > dedicated blaster ships. Pretty sad, but true.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.27 23:00:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil .... So WTF are Mega pilots complaining about again?
I've got no problem listening to Amarr and Minie pilots complaining about the Rohk but not Gallente pilots.
Please leave this thread. It is clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.
The Megathron DID NOT outrange the other long range battleships by any margin comparable to what the Rokh is doing.
The Rokh essentially introduces obsolescence to ALL current craft that CAN be used for long range combat.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
skillbuyer
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Posted - 2006.11.29 09:58:00 -
[44]
Yet another flawed math thread by murder one.
"Tracking does not matter unless the target completely evades you"? Oh really?
I have two words for you: Percentile chance to miss, and hit quality degradation.
Naturally with a Megathron you don't have to worry much about it, but I suggest you start looking into it before trying to discuss other ships.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.11.29 10:05:00 -
[45]
If you want to compare 2 ships tracking, please fit the same fittings.. don't go about saying "This is the best way to fit it.. yada yada". Its like comparing a truck with a ford escort. Not the same and to many variables.
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