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Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:01:00 - [1] Over the first two weeks of December we will be seeing the Third Caldari Alliance championships. A display of the best EvE capsuleers have to offer, a showcase for those elite pilots from each alliance to draw from the experience of themselves and their wingmates to fight it out to either their own death, or victory. It SHOULD be a spectacle. It SHOULD be extravagent. It SHOULD have us all so excited at participating and watching that EvETV have no doubt spunked lots of cash on the bandwidth it's going to require. But there are issues with the way this tournament is being organised. First and foremost it comes less than 4 days after the biggest patch of the year, Revelations. This patch is not only completely changing the way gangs work but also changing the way modules work. One such module, The Information Warfare Link Electronic Superiority, is being boosted: Quote: ...now gives bonus to all EWAR modules' strength, including remote sensor dampener, tracking disruptor, target painter and ECM. This module, previously, only applied to ewar modules. Such a monumental shift in teh balance of the gang mods had us asking if we could swap one of our pilots. Surely, if the game is being changed up to this late stage then CCP would accept that tactics, strategies and team setups would also change. No. Our request has been denied. Apparently the tournament is too far gone and organised to allow a simple pilot switch. Good luck to all those pilots who, through luck or pre-information anyone with the information warfare skillset just got handed a trump card by CCP. In my last paragraph, I lied. I said that apparently the tournament is too far gone to allow such a simple change. Maybe so, but it is quite obviously NOT so far gone that, since the meeting to confirm the rules was held late last month, the rules have been changed to allow PRE-LOCKING OF YOUR OPPONENT. This is something that was absolutely banned in the previous two tournaments, for ** good reason, why has that reason now been completely discarded? Now you cannot choose a tactic of sensor boosters over remote sensor dampeners because the tactic of "fast lock" has been completely removed for us. So, the game and the modules have been changed, but we're banned from adapting to them. The whole concept of "pvp display" has been thrown out of the window with the pre-lock concept. The tournament is going to be a damp fest. This tournament should have been so much, the second was a vast improvement over the first in my opinion - the third is going to spell the end of the alliance tournament because all the pilots on many sides that I have spoken with (and I do not pretend to speak for everyone) have said that the format, the organisation and the summary decisions on such influential factors has completely remove any joy they might have had from participating in it. It has now become a chore. You've tried to reinvent the wheel, CCP, and you're coming up with something that doesn't even form an enclosed space. Start listening to us, please, don't allow pre-lock and allow us to ADAPT to the changes you're making to teh game, otherwise it's going to be RMR tactics on Revelations game sets. Way to showcase. Originally by:** CRYVOK Others, like BoB, they play the game in a meaningless fasition, concerned with nothing but winning. We care about our friends.
Durvaul Caldari Knights Of Serenity Lacuna Viators Imperium	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:08:00 - [2] Edited by: Durvaul on 27/11/2006 21:08:17 1st what he said :D
Voltron Caldari Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:09:00 - [3] Pre-lock FTL, has the price of phased muons been affected much by this? Doubt it, but wouldnt surprise me if it had a wee bit. Volt It's great touching your own dink isn't it?
Fuglife Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:15:00 - [4] I agree tbh, its too close to revelations, remember the last patches? UBER LAG! Still, no stopping it now. ---
Shigsy Caldari Four Horsemen	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:20:00 - [5] As for the lag, I doubt it will be a factor. With the amount of GM's that will be hovering around, I think you guys will be getting a node to yourself for a 5v5 battle. I don't see much lag happening there. My own home made brand of BoB/ASCN sigs \o/
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:21:00 - [6] Originally by: Dianabolic The tournament is going to be a damp fest. This tournament should have been so much, the second was a vast improvement over the first in my opinion - the third is going to spell the end of the alliance tournament because all the pilots on many sides that I have spoken with (and I do not pretend to speak for everyone) have said that the format, the organisation and the summary decisions on such influential factors has completely remove any joy they might have had from participating in it. It has now become a chore. You've tried to reinvent the wheel, CCP, and you're coming up with something that doesn't even form an enclosed space. My pilots have spent weeks getting ready for this. It's gone from being something we were very excited about to generating almost a sense of apathy. As Diana said, this has now become a chore. The last tournament at least required a bit of thought and was indeed an improvement. Despite what some thought, it allowed for some very interesting tactics and combos. As it stands now, there are many unresolved questions with regard to drones not responding to agression, the EW module Diana mentioned and God only knows what changes might sneak in as a result of the "largest expansion in EVE history." As a side note, it has been stated as a solution to sensor dampening to use remote sensor boosters. As I am sure many can happily testify to, these modules stack against sensor boosters and so have no effect. There are some things I really like about this new Tournament like the points system but... The problem is this: the view of PvP represented in this tournament represents a very narrow understanding and representation of PVP. It leads to a set of rules which mirrors running around in a five man gank squad which does not incorporate any of other wide plethora of other pvp elements in the game. It could work as a five on five, but... Originally by: Dianabolic The tournament is going to be a damp fest. Pretty much. - Movie: 9UY - Got Fighters?
JINX HSC Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:21:00 - [7] Dian owns CCP - KLADDKAKA - Trig read the rulez m8!!!
Kaleeb Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:23:00 - [8] Some people may see this as a bob whine based on the fact your tactics have been blown out of the water and ccp wont change them to fit you, so beware the probable upcoming flammage As to your thread i`m no expert on the tourney other than helping a few of our team testing setups etc. Do you think ECM should be allowed at all? I agree that it will become a damp fest and its a shame that there seems to be alot of inflexibilty in ccp's way of running this tourney. Gl I guess, well not too much! Go MC!
Yual Minmatar Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:26:00 - [9] Edited by: Yual on 27/11/2006 21:32:52 With out a pilot in the fleet commander position(with fleet command skill), the wing commander position(with the wing commander skill), and squad leader(with leadership which you would have), does anyone get any bonuses anyways??? With the changes to gangs in Kali w/out enough time to train someone to fleet commander level, will anyone be able to benefit from any of the gang bonuses period since you need to have an "active" commander above you to be able to recieve the bonuses from that commander? Probably a better question for the Kali discussion section but impossibble to test for me since all my characters on Sisi were given level 5 in all the gang skills. Edit for clarification: If your fleet commander doesnt have the fleet command skill does ANYONE get any bonuses? If you dont have an active fleet commander and active wing commander will anyone recieve bonuses? I'm heading to Sisi now to test some things ugh. This is a **up of major proportions CCP. Originally by:** W.W. Smith "Consistancy is a hallmark of a small mind." ASCII a stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:27:00 - [10] It's all a bit of a mess tbh. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Sivona Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:28:00 - [11] With the changes, a lachesis can lock down 2 targets to 23km even if they run 4 sensor booster II's, 6 sensor amps II's and have 10 remote sensor booster's attached to them. The lock time before gave people half a chance. Witht these last minute changes that ends. This is not PVP this is a who can click first competition and frankly no one can prove if someone starts at 1 second on the countdown with lag etc. This will turn into a glorified dampening gank fest, quite appropriate for Lemonde not very appropriate for the tournament as an advert to eve. This is not a reflection in our lack of adaptibility, we have spent the past month working on strategies to counter this, they just arn't there with pre-locking. This is a reflection of lack of knowledge about the game, i told Lemonde personally this and i will happily say it again.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:31:00 - [12] Originally by: Kaleeb Some people may see this as a bob whine based on the fact your tactics have been blown out of the water and ccp wont change them to fit you, so beware the probable upcoming flammage Aye, I almost expect it, Kaleeb, but in general I think this thread will be taken in the way it is meant, a constructive criticism to try and fix something before people switch channels. Originally by: Kaleeb As to your thread i`m no expert on the tourney other than helping a few of our team testing setups etc. Do you think ECM should be allowed at all? Absolutely not. No damps, tracking disruptors or ecm should be allowed and we voted against all of them when given the chance. Originally by: Kaleeb Gl I guess, well not too much! Go MC! heh, whether my main or my alt wins, I win :p Originally by: CRYVOK Others, like BoB, they play the game in a meaningless fasition, concerned with nothing but winning. We care about our friends.
Kaleeb Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:31:00 - [13] What are the odds on BE winning this yr? /me feels a bet coming....
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:33:00 - [14] Heh, on top of the whole damp thing, consider this too: What happens if the Kali deployment doesnt go along to plan? What if were forced to play with the current RMR rules, ships etc? What if Kali is deployed halfway through the tourny? It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Alasse Cuthalion TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Sivona With the changes, a lachesis can lock down 2 targets to 23km even if they run 4 sensor booster II's, 6 sensor amps II's and have 10 remote sensor booster's attached to them. The lock time before gave people half a chance. Witht these last minute changes that ends. This is not PVP this is a who can click first competition and frankly no one can prove if someone starts at 1 second on the countdown with lag etc. This will turn into a glorified dampening gank fest, quite appropriate for Lemonde not very appropriate for the tournament as an advert to eve. This is not a reflection in our lack of adaptibility, we have spent the past month working on strategies to counter this, they just arn't there with pre-locking. This is a reflection of lack of knowledge about the game, i told Lemonde personally this and i will happily say it again. Agreed, completely and utterly. The last tourney was pretty boring due to the amount of remote tanking and lack of pretty explosions but allowing certain types of ewar does NOT help, it simply changes the symptoms, the outcome remains the same.
Elendar Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:35:00 - [16] press damp 1 second before enemy, win, yay? sounds like this is going to be one boring tourney Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry Xirt must be one of the GREAT leaders in eve to keep you guys shooting shuttles in hophib
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:38:00 - [17] I still think it amusing that jammers are not allowed if I read that correctly. I mean if jammers are not over powered why not allow them? The whole thing smells of fubar, but then again so does the Kali patch to me, I think CCP needs more 'real' pvpers making the calls.
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:42:00 - [18] If you guys have actually spent some time testing, you'll find some gaping weaknesses in your apparent strategy. I don't know why you are even considering using that specific gang mod. You will see that you ARE allowed to lock the enemy before hand. BUT, an ECM burst will be fired at the start, breaking all lock. This a is a subtle hint that you are allowed to use ship scanners to if you want to sacrifice a midslot. Sensor boosters will still be necessary if u wanna play that game, but I'll tell you right now if you come out the way I think you will, you are not qualifying. So aside from showing us that you really haven't read the rules, looking like your giving excuses should you loose and practically giving away you (albeit rubbish) strategy.... I forgot my point. Unless of course, you realise that there are better options than the one you mentioned and are trying to get people your fighting to counter your setup initially, while you come out with a much better setup and pwn them, thus getting a free victory in your first match. Oh the mind games....
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Shin Ra BUT, an ECM burst will be fired at the start, breaking all lock. Are you making this up, Shin? Because I've just re-re-read the rules and not a single mention of that. Originally by: CRYVOK Others, like BoB, they play the game in a meaningless fasition, concerned with nothing but winning. We care about our friends.
Noobaque Amarr BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:51:00 - [20] Edited by: Noobaque on 27/11/2006 21:53:27 Edited by: Noobaque on 27/11/2006 21:53:12 stop complaining, just becuase your dampened doesnt mean your done. adapt to it. sometimes a beter counter to a module doing something to you isnt fitting the module to counter it, but flying your ship correctly. you guys give up too easily edit:bad grammer
Sivona Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Shin Ra You will see that you ARE allowed to lock the enemy before hand. BUT, an ECM burst will be fired at the start, breaking all lock. This a is a subtle hint that you are allowed to use ship scanners to if you want to sacrifice a midslot. The final rules have been provided. This rule was not included, like others, if its not in rules its not in the rules. How the **** are we really meant to plan for random last minute changes to the tournament and rules being applied which arn't in the rules
Adam C 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:52:00 - [22] sounds like an interesting topic for Burn Eden ts come 0200 :)
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Noobaque stop complaining, just becuase your dampened does mean your done. adapt to it. sometimes a beter counter to a module doing something to you isnt fitting the module to counter it, but flying your ship correctly. you guys give up too easily LOL. k. Range of these mods = more than the size of the arena. Having sig suppression 5 though, I guess you're speaking from experience. Or, not? Originally by: CRYVOK Others, like BoB, they play the game in a meaningless fasition, concerned with nothing but winning. We care about our friends.
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Shin Ra If you guys have actually spent some time testing, you'll find some gaping weaknesses in your apparent strategy. I don't know why you are even considering using that specific gang mod. We're not. Quote: This a is a subtle hint that you are allowed to use ship scanners to if you want to sacrifice a midslot. Yes, I know. Quote: Sensor boosters will still be necessary if u wanna play that game, but I'll tell you right now if you come out the way I think you will, you are not qualifying. So aside from showing us that you really haven't read the rules, looking like your giving excuses should you loose and practically giving away you (albeit rubbish) strategy.... I forgot my point. The seven man teams allow a team to come out with more than one strategy and I'd wager that many would be a bit surprised by what MC undocks for the first few matches. Shin, I realize where you are coming from, but the fact is that you have no idea what we're planning to do. We have about three or four ideas for dealing with just YOUR team, whom we honestly consider the most dangerous of the group. We're not noobs either, Shin. This isn't opinion. We're taking every match very seriously. In the course of that, we've done a lot of testing and the opinions myself and Sivona and others are expressing are based off of those tests. - Movie: 9UY - Got Fighters?
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:53:00 - [25] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Shin Ra BUT, an ECM burst will be fired at the start, breaking all lock. Are you making this up, Shin? Because I've just re-re-read the rules and not a single mention of that. It was mentioned on the events thread, wonderboy.
Omeega Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:53:00 - [26] those who cannot adapt become victims of the evolution or something? j/k. Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
Sivona Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:55:00 - [27] Originally by: Shin Ra Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Shin Ra BUT, an ECM burst will be fired at the start, breaking all lock. Are you making this up, Shin? Because I've just re-re-read the rules and not a single mention of that. It was mentioned on the events thread, wonderboy. Is it in the rules?
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:56:00 - [28] Originally by: Seleene The seven man teams allow a team to come out with more than one strategy and I'd wager that many would be a bit surprised by what MC undocks for the first few matches. Shin, I realize where you are coming from, but the fact is that you have no idea what we're planning to do. We have about three or four ideas for dealing with just YOUR team, whom we honestly consider the most dangerous of the group. We're not noobs either, Shin. This isn't opinion. We're taking every match very seriously. In the course of that, we've done a lot of testing and the opinions myself and Sivona and others are expressing are based off of those tests. Thats whats so great about it this year, its so open to different setups that nobody has any idea what to expect really.
Helganstandt Finis Lumen Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:56:00 - [29] I'm actually asking in the "rule discussion" sticky thread or whatever for an official response from CCP as to the "pre-lock" stuff. LeMonde said in that thread that an ECM burst breaking everyone's lock will be fired to signify the start of the match....which makes no sense as what's the point of locking beforehand then? But anyway, jury is still out on that one...I'm waiting for an official response. I do agree with most of what has been posted though. I still think it's going to be fun, but the ogranization is really bad in my opinion. The tournament should have happened a few weeks later so we could adapt to Kali a bit more than testing on a laggy test server, or a few weeks earlier so we could do it before kali.
Freada Gallente Mackinaw Industries	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:57:00 - [30] If we can even login and if they can keep the servers up long enough to have the tourny there is an alternative to force the changes or get more time. Just have everyone agree not to show up and force a reschedule. If past patches are any indication this is something CCP will end up having to do anyway.

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