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Rimok	Posted - 2006.11.29 15:57:00 - [1] Edited by: Rimok on 29/11/2006 15:59:55 After some experimenting with the new scanning system i found the following. I was able to pinpoint and warp to a mission runner using regular scan probe launcher within 5-10 minutes. Here is my problem, while agreeing with the fact that mission running used to be too easy, this is a tad to much. Mission runners will almost commit suicide like this. Although i agree there should be more risk i think this has gone a bit over the edge. Build in the risk by making the missions more divers and exciting, requiring specific and changing tactics. My 2 cents. Rimok
Miss Tresss	Posted - 2006.11.29 16:03:00 - [2] I'm not overly knowledgable in this area. But don't most mission areas ban the use of mwd's? In which case anyone entering the mission would have a hard time catching you before you warp out if it took 5 minutes to scan you down? As a starting out mission runner my biggest worry would be cloaked ships. Maybe ban cloaking in mission areas (deadspace). Does the above make any sense?
Rimok	Posted - 2006.11.29 16:10:00 - [3] yes if the mission has no webbers and scramblers, which is kinda rare atm in lvl4 missions at least Cloackers arent that much of a problem i think cos the 2k max range makes manouvring in mission areas kinda hard
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.29 16:16:00 - [4] There are also missions where you are placed right on top of the gate leading to the next deadspace pocket, so moving 50km from your warp in point would be pointless. It's, to put it bluntly, retarded. One pirate can now shut down an entire low sec mission area. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.11.29 16:33:00 - [5] Ye if I understand a gate anyone organized enough to run a gate camp can now instead just make it impossible to run mission in any low sec system. Wherever you went - here you are.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.11.29 17:10:00 - [6] Detecting a new ship in the mission area might be a bit hard if you got 60+ NPC around you. Cloaking in mission areas normally doesn't work because of debris, wrecks, clouds, acc. gates. roids and roidettes, npcs, drones, missiles, ... --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.11.29 17:17:00 - [7] But if a pirate finds 60 npcs in the middle of nowhere, would that be a clue for him to go there to find you? Wherever you went - here you are.
Haulzorzz	Posted - 2006.11.29 18:57:00 - [8] Onoes I can't make unlimited iskies in low sec with 0 risk to me whatever shall I do. If you want to avoid getting ganked in low sec go run level 4's in high sec, sure you make 1/2 the money but who cares you wont have to risk your pimped out faction CNR to a couple of scummy pirates in a cruiser and a T2 BS.
Locky Thindromen	Posted - 2006.11.29 20:26:00 - [9] Characters in local are now tagged with corp/alliance standings just like your over view... ProTip: if local isnt all blue, stop running missions, get intel on the hostile, call for backup to hunt him down, go kill him yourself... seriously its no diffrent from mining in low-sec now.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.11.29 20:36:00 - [10] Originally by: Haulzorzz Onoes I can't make unlimited iskies in low sec with 0 risk to me whatever shall I do. If you want to avoid getting ganked in low sec go run level 4's in high sec, sure you make 1/2 the money but who cares you wont have to risk your pimped out faction CNR to a couple of scummy pirates in a cruiser and a T2 BS. I think everyone knows to do that. Buts silly because it basically makes low sec lvl 4s useless content. For all the more lvl 4s pay Im not going to bother doing them in a T2 fitted battle ship when it appears to be suicide. Wherever you went - here you are.
Dane Hur Caldari DaHOOD Communication	Posted - 2006.11.29 20:36:00 - [11] Yes its to easy, they went a bit to far if you ask me, in one scan I found three missions, missionrunners beware, CTRL F11 is your friend
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.29 20:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Locky Thindromen Characters in local are now tagged with corp/alliance standings just like your over view... ProTip: if local isnt all blue, stop running missions, get intel on the hostile, call for backup to hunt him down, go kill him yourself... seriously its no diffrent from mining in low-sec now. I'm so tired of reading nonsense like this. If you can't see where the giant holes are in your "solution" on your own then I'm not even going to bother. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.29 20:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Tribunal There are also missions where you are placed right on top of the gate leading to the next deadspace pocket, so moving 50km from your warp in point would be pointless. It's, to put it bluntly, retarded. One pirate can now shut down an entire low sec mission area. Actually, it would require at least two (one to probe, one to gank). And if a large group of mission runners cannot join forces to see off two pirates, they deserve to die.
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus	Posted - 2006.11.29 20:56:00 - [14] this new scanning system will allow me to annoy high sec mission runners to - warp in shoot the NPCs collect quick ISK These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.29 20:57:00 - [15] .. ok .. this might be the one and only time i'll agree with a lvl4 missionrunner the scan probe systems has become so easy it's not even funny anymore. after testing it a bit i can only say: you don't need a f***ing clue how to use probes. only thing that matters now is the skillpoints invested into the ships and modules. ___________________ EVE: Revelations - The Game for Carebears and Gankbears no more skill needed for PvP - only skillpoints for Large Bubble and CovOps n00b-alts
Vandervecken Smith Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.29 20:59:00 - [16] The issue is that unlike low sec mining, you can't just bug out at any time in a mission. Wasted progress is irrelevant, but most missions at L4 warp scramble you, and with the WCS nerf, a decent mission runner won't be carrying more than 1 stab max. This is a serious problem.
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.29 21:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Butter Dog Actually, it would require at least two (one to probe, one to gank). It does not require two people, it requires one person in a recon ship. The "gank" comes from the 20+ NPCs pounding the hell out of the mission runner. Quote: And if a large group of mission runners cannot join forces to see off two pirates, they deserve to die. Because the more people you add to a gang the easier it is to locate a recon ship, right? Mission runners do not dictate when a pirate will attack, the pirate does. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Malena Perpetual Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.29 22:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Haulzorzz Onoes I can't make unlimited iskies in low sec with 0 risk to me whatever shall I do. If you want to avoid getting ganked in low sec go run level 4's in high sec, sure you make 1/2 the money but who cares you wont have to risk your pimped out faction CNR to a couple of scummy pirates in a cruiser and a T2 BS. Spoken like a true wan..I mean ganker. Sounds like you are looking forward to that chance to sneak up on someone who never even saw you coming because you blended in with the 30-60 NPCs already on screen/overview. I really hate this change. True, missions created too much immunity, but this, as is usually the case with EVE, is too far an extreme to the other side. What I AM looking forward to however, is the pirate who loses his ship because the player killed the ship that creates the spawn just as he warps in...the pirate won't be able to control the aggro any more than the player. It would also seem like a valid tactic, follow me here: 1. Bad guy comes into your mission 2. You realize you are screwed because you haven't finished killing the warp scramblers and can't do so before the PC lights you up. 3. You realize you haven't killed the NPC that brings on the next wave yet. 4. You kill that NPC, somehow...and hope that the new wave decides that other ship is a more enticing target. (meanwhile you ship back to the scramblers) At this point paths diverge: A. NPCs go after pirate, he is set to gank, not tank so he either warps or dies, allowing you to either finish or get out, depending on how many scramblers you have managed to take out at this point. B. NPCs go after you, kill you faster, pirate gets no kill mail C. NPCs kill you, pirate can't get your loot because now the NPCs are targetting him. He dies trying to get it. Note that all of above end with you not completing the mission, and thus not getting ISK/rewards/standing. Good for the pirate...even better for CCP. Cause less people earning ISK on mission equals less inflation. Again, I think a change needed to be made, but this is too much.
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:28:00 - [19] Actually you can probe cloaked ships now, so less 'bu hu', and less 'I deserve to mission with impunity in lowsec', and more adjusting to the new dynamic please Adapt or die. I've already enjoyed using the new probes today with great effect, and will continue to do so.
Vily Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Butter Dog Actually you can probe cloaked ships now, so less 'bu hu', and less 'I deserve to mission with impunity in lowsec', and more adjusting to the new dynamic please Adapt or die. I've already enjoyed using the new probes today with great effect, and will continue to do so. you wont for long, i know of over 60% of the poeple that mission with are moving to high-sec now. the system no longer allows people to run low-sec missions sadly -
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:52:00 - [21] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 30/11/2006 00:04:47 Originally by: Tribunal It's, to put it bluntly, retarded. One pirate can now shut down an entire low sec mission area. I can't wait for a lone pirate to be fool enough to jump into my mission. Of course, they aren't that stupid and when I've been jumped, it's always with a few BS and a Inty for tackling. Never seen a solo pirate crash a mission, but it'd make my day! I do agree that the accuracy of the longest range probes makes the intermediate range probes pointless. Observators always put you well within range of 3AU probes, so the middle-range ones have no use at all. Observators should get you maybe 12AU accuracy, so you have to do at least one scan with intermediate-range probes before switching to 3AU probes. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Maximaester	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:58:00 - [22] I was just found after being in a drone mission no more than 2-3 minutes. It is unbelievibly not in favor of the mission runner. This mechanic must be fixed as you only seem to have a 2m window of safety running missions even if you run a scanner. And warping in 100's of times to finish a mission safely can't be what was intended. If CCP does think it is working as expected they are pretty much saying they don't give a care in the world about anyone other than hard core pvpers. Flame away... I do give the pirates credit who found me, they got paid and left :)
Gankor	Posted - 2006.11.30 00:11:00 - [23] Probing out mission runners is like shooting fish in a barrel. The scan deviation is sufficient to warp directly to their acceleration gate with one medium range probe. Trouble is, the barrel is going to be empty real soon. I don't think people appreciated the original probe system enough, having a little skill and reason involved is what made it fun and exciting to use, a warp result was like finding gold. Now we have fools gold.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.11.30 00:14:00 - [24] Originally by: Gankor Probing out mission runners is like shooting fish in a barrel. The scan deviation is sufficient to warp directly to their acceleration gate with one medium range probe. Trouble is, the barrel is going to be empty real soon. I don't think people appreciated the original probe system enough, having a little skill and reason involved is what made it fun and exciting to use, a warp result was like finding gold. Now we have fools gold. True enough, I vote for old system reinstation. And I am a pirate. ----------------------------------------
Perseus D'Solos	Posted - 2006.11.30 00:17:00 - [25] If CCP wants more people to move to low-sec, this is about as counter-productive as it could possibly get. Pirates can't be nailed down with probes if they keep on the move, but their targets, the mission runners, are little more than sitting ducks, tied to the spot by warp scramblers, and gnaved at by battleships. Congrats CCP, may this be another "it was never intended (tm)" feature, because if it isn't, ALOT of low-sec dwellers WILL move to high-sec, which WILL precipitate the premature cancellation of many EVE-Online subscriptions. Takes hat of for a friend who lost a faction fitted raven to a pair of gankers in mid-mission earlier
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.30 00:18:00 - [26] Edited by: Grey Area on 30/11/2006 00:19:08 It is this new system AND the nerf to the warp core stabs that had me "whining" about the latter in the warp core stabs thread. I'm glad that even some pirates are now starting to see that it is NOT going to deliver lots of kills to them...it's going to deliver lots of empty low sec systems. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.30 01:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Butter Dog Actually you can probe cloaked ships now, so less 'bu hu', and less 'I deserve to mission with impunity in lowsec', and more adjusting to the new dynamic please Adapt or die. I've already enjoyed using the new probes today with great effect, and will continue to do so. The probes couldn't find cloaked ships the day of the patch, but you are claiming that they now can? And the low sec mission runners are going to adapt, they are going to go to high sec. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.30 02:12:00 - [28] Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 30/11/2006 00:19:08 It is this new system AND the nerf to the warp core stabs that had me "whining" about the latter in the warp core stabs thread. I'm glad that even some pirates are now starting to see that it is NOT going to deliver lots of kills to them...it's going to deliver lots of empty low sec systems. the WCS nerf is fine. the ridicolous ease of using scan probes is not. ___________________ EVE: Revelations - The Game for Carebears and Gankbears no more skill needed for PvP - only skillpoints for Large Bubble and CovOps n00b-alts
Janatari Vril Werke Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.30 02:41:00 - [29] Omg cant believe this. This is almost the same as the Vagabonds whine threats Im trying it all day now. Yeah I'm are finelly able to actually find someone/something now. But it is still hard to get the mission runner. A small gang of mission runners stopped me, wont tell how, just figure it out yourself. And from the mission runners i probed i only got 3... In 6 hours time, well go figure how the others escaped. I recommend: frist think, then make a whine threat Loot made up the waiting time tho my 2 cents, Jan
Morp p'LLoran Redemption EnterpriseS Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.30 03:30:00 - [30] Originally by: Janatari Omg cant believe this. This is almost the same as the Vagabonds whine threats Im trying it all day now. Yeah I'm are finelly able to actually find someone/something now. But it is still hard to get the mission runner. A small gang of mission runners stopped me, wont tell how, just figure it out yourself. And from the mission runners i probed i only got 3... In 6 hours time, well go figure how the others escaped. I recommend: frist think, then make a whine threat Loot made up the waiting time tho my 2 cents, Jan In systems where there are mission running corp like Dead Parot Shoppe, it might still be viable - but for the solo mission runners (majority , btw) it is NOT viable. As a besides - how many missionrunner have you scanned down pre-Revelations? in 6 hours? Soon low-sec will be more laggy than Jita due to gankbears like you spamming probes. And the result - less targets and more gankbears whinning about moving mission to low-sec, whine-whine-whine, no targets , boohoo, why can't i have easy kills, whine, rabble. You pirate cowards will soon have low-sec even emptier than it is, so enjoy while you can. ( and before you throw the carebear- label, I'm a 0.0 dweller that's in a constant state of real PvP warfare - fighting targets that can actually, ohnoes, shoot back. mission are done for a break )
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.30 11:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 30/11/2006 00:19:08 It is this new system AND the nerf to the warp core stabs that had me "whining" about the latter in the warp core stabs thread. I'm glad that even some pirates are now starting to see that it is NOT going to deliver lots of kills to them...it's going to deliver lots of empty low sec systems. the WCS nerf is fine. the ridicolous ease of using scan probes is not. But the two in conjunction with each other make it even worse. Mission runners are easier to find, and cannot run away as easily. Add into that mix that if they want to salvage the mission they have to spend an extra hour (MINIMUM) at the mission site...meh...just not worth the effort. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
NITROX UpAllNightGaming Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.30 15:19:00 - [32] Quote: Actually you can probe cloaked ships now, so less 'bu hu', and less 'I deserve to mission with impunity in lowsec', and more adjusting to the new dynamic please Adapt or die. I've already enjoyed using the new probes today with great effect, and will continue to do so. Maybe you should hide in your own corporation (as per normal) when you want to start to brag about ganking mission runners. Remember the ISS/ISSN is supposed to be neutral if you want to use the term losely. Pathetic ButterDog
Larsson7 Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.30 15:40:00 - [33] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Gankor Probing out mission runners is like shooting fish in a barrel. The scan deviation is sufficient to warp directly to their acceleration gate with one medium range probe. Trouble is, the barrel is going to be empty real soon. I don't think people appreciated the original probe system enough, having a little skill and reason involved is what made it fun and exciting to use, a warp result was like finding gold. Now we have fools gold. True enough, I vote for old system reinstation. And I am a pirate. Malicious and his crew are experts at what they do and did not need an "easy mode" to achieve the results they already get. And, seriously, the whole "Adapt or die" thing is not cutting it. There is a substantial difference between pirates having to work for their prey and simply using an easy mode of ultra fast scanning and warp to victim. Hell - when a Pirate tells you that the system is too easy for them then something has to be wrong.
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.11.30 15:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Gankor Probing out mission runners is like shooting fish in a barrel. The scan deviation is sufficient to warp directly to their acceleration gate with one medium range probe. Trouble is, the barrel is going to be empty real soon. I don't think people appreciated the original probe system enough, having a little skill and reason involved is what made it fun and exciting to use, a warp result was like finding gold. Now we have fools gold. True enough, I vote for old system reinstation. And I am a pirate. QFT, and so am I. _________________________________________________________
Wardani Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.11.30 20:47:00 - [35] Yeh, it's silly as it is now. What we all love about Eve is that it actually takes a working brain to be good at it (I fail miserably) and the new scanning system is no challenge at all. - Obsidian Enforcer - The Black Rabbits
Reecoh Soltar Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.30 21:42:00 - [36] I don't think the high-sec mission runners will be immune from this either. Since salvaging a wreck won't flag you, I foresee guys probing out runners in the already crowded high-sec level 4 agent areas, and salvaging the (from what I hear mostly) empty wrecks at pretty much any point - while the runner is fighting, or he's in another zone, or even while he's trying to loot & salvage. Aggo is an issue, but the salvager can probably be fit for quick get aways easier than the mission runner's ship. This assumes of course that salvaging is reasonably profitable for a pilot who uses probes & has Salvaging IV or V. I don't know that it will be.
Janatari Vril Werke Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.01 03:11:00 - [37] Edited by: Janatari on 01/12/2006 03:13:37 Originally by: Morp p'LLoran Originally by: Janatari Omg cant believe this. This is almost the same as the Vagabonds whine threats Im trying it all day now. Yeah I'm are finelly able to actually find someone/something now. But it is still hard to get the mission runner. A small gang of mission runners stopped me, wont tell how, just figure it out yourself. And from the mission runners i probed i only got 3... In 6 hours time, well go figure how the others escaped. I recommend: frist think, then make a whine threat Loot made up the waiting time tho my 2 cents, Jan In systems where there are mission running corp like Dead Parot Shoppe, it might still be viable - but for the solo mission runners (majority , btw) it is NOT viable. As a besides - how many missionrunner have you scanned down pre-Revelations? in 6 hours? Soon low-sec will be more laggy than Jita due to gankbears like you spamming probes. And the result - less targets and more gankbears whinning about moving mission to low-sec, whine-whine-whine, no targets , boohoo, why can't i have easy kills, whine, rabble. You pirate cowards will soon have low-sec even emptier than it is, so enjoy while you can. ( and before you throw the carebear- label, I'm a 0.0 dweller that's in a constant state of real PvP warfare - fighting targets that can actually, ohnoes, shoot back. mission are done for a break ) I did not expect anything else from V. So you think i did no 0,0 pvp before i became a pirat. Check the HUZZAH killboard my name is still there on a nice rank, or the old PA killboard... well that is down sadly. Probing mission runner pre relevation was almost impossible, the probes didnt scan in 3d so you needed to be very lucky that someone gets a mission 'inline' with the system or the deep save spots you got. Probing actually works now and just believe me when i say it is still hard to get them, you can easyly escape/avoid the pie's when you play smart like everywhere else, for examble 0,0 belts ratting. You just need to pay more attention to what happens around you. Its not possible to just warp to that mission and get rich with no risk at all. and now to a little personal matters. im really sick of V. Everytime one of you guys jump in local in can read stuff like 'hi little pirat kiddy's, hi fat ugly kids with no girlfriend. WTF do you think you are. I do know how to pvp and there is no 'more real' pvp in 0,0. Tho i have to admit that the targets are better. Guess what the targets are: battleships in belts... why not BS in missions, ow wait thats 'lesser' pvp whatever Well go back to blobbing, mayby that is the so called 'real' pvp you talk about. Flying with 20 mates tru 0,0 looking for easy target. sounds familier?
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.01 23:57:00 - [38] I hate to revive this thread in some ways because there is so much mindless flaming on both sides, but for what it's worth in next week's patch notes: Quote: # The scan strength of drones has been increased to 7.5 for ligth drones, 12.5 for medium and 22.5 for heavy. This only affects for probe scanning as they can not be target jammed. # Backup arrays now give a bonus to the sensor type listed in their description. Tech 2 versions now give a 48% bonus. I'm guessing ECCM and backup arrays are going to become really common on lowsec mission setups. :) Good move, and puts the ball in the mission runner's court. Whether it achieves the right balance I don't know. But I guess we'll see. Someone may want to run some numbers using Hoshi's Scan Probe guide. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.02 02:23:00 - [39] This really does nothing for the dedicated mission runner, since they will not compromise their fitting with PvP mods and move to highsec instead. Highsec running in proper fitting >>> lowsec running in gimped fitting. It DOES help the pirates to avoid probing by militant carebears though (which is a shame since that is exactly what I was planning to do instead of missions now), so in fact I think this is just another change AGAINST the good guys. Oh well... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.02 16:20:00 - [40] Has anyone seen any evidenc of high sec piracy yet? This system makes it very viable... 1. Scan for mission runner 2. Enter mission runner's mission 3. Fire at all non-aggro'd NPC's 4. Leave Particularly in the new missions where killing certain NPCs can cause a whole new wave to spawn, I think missions in high sec are now NOT safe from piracy...all the pirate has to do is bookmark something in the mission area before he leaves...warp out, then go wait by the entrance gate...when it disappears (because you cancelled the mission) he can warp to the bookmark and collect all your items. Even if you are lucky and manage to escape...there's nothing to stop the pirate from repeating this "griefing" process all over again...you won't be able to shoot at him because all he did to you was fire at an NPC. Let me be clear...if he does this once and gets you killed, I wouldn't class it as griefing. If he repeatedly does it every time you warp back to your mission, I would...he gains nothing from it, but ruins your playing experience (you lose revenue from the mission and maybe take a standing loss). --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.02 17:57:00 - [41] Yeah, few sane people will run lowsec missions now. It's not that it can't be done, it's that the risk is ridiculous vs the rewards. You're much, much safer in 0.0 (bar the occasional bubble camp). I have 40m+ sps, I pvp now and then (empire wars or pirate hunting, usually), I mine when I have to, I do some trading, I run some missions now and then. Whatever I feel like doing. Up to now running a few lowsec missions was a nice chance to unwind. There's some risk involved (the people who say lvl4's are risk-free are retarded, the things tend to be pretty dangerous and sometimes one wrong move will lose you a ship faster than you can blink). The rewards haven't been all that hot vs. the time involved in the missions, but what the hell, it's some extra cash and it's fun now and then. But now? There's no way I can kit to survive both solo pvp (especially vs a recon) and the harder lvl4 missions, at least without going into faction gear and ridiculous ship costs. Missions are hectic, there is also very little time to watch scanner -- belt ratting is a lot less involved. So I'll adapt and move my missions to 0.5. It's the only sane thing to do right now. No huge loss, it's not like missioning has been my primary occupation -- but I have to wonder if this is what CCP intended. If a reasonably competent pilot like me (who isn't allergic to pvp) is moving to highsec just because the risks/reward went down the drain, what do you think your more normal cearbear will do? Right, move to highsec even faster, if in fact he ever left. If I want that kind of risk I go to 0.0 and rat. Equal or less risk (much less populated) and much better rewards and iskies. I predict lowsec is going to become a barren wasteland pretty soon. I'll go down there now and then with corpmates to shoot up some pirates, but that's about it. Ho hum. Don't get me wrong, I love the wcs nerf (never used them myself), and love the fact that probing is less cryptic now. Problem is, probing is so simple now a drunk monkey (hell, even Ginger Magician! :) could do it, and as a side effect it pretty much kills lowsec missioning. Not sure how to solve this, frankly -- maybe mission areas should be harder than normal to probe, or something. Dunno. Yes, I know about ECCM. Looking at the numbers, it doesn't look like it will do much. So a pirate pack will take a bit longer to probe me? So what? I'll still have to abort the mission the moment a hostile enters local -- and do you have any idea how long some of the lvl4s are? Aborting a mining op or ratting is easy, just warp off. Abort a mission? You've just wasted possibly 1-2 hours of work, and as an insult to injury you also get a standings hit from your agent. Whopeee. If lowsec mission rewards were huge, it might compensate. But they are not, and the missions tend to be long. It just doesn't make sense to do them there anymore, highsec missions or 0.0 ratting make so much more sense it isn't even funny. Highsec here I come, thanks to CCP design :/
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.02 18:20:00 - [42] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Aborting a mining op or ratting is easy, just warp off. Abort a mission? You've just wasted possibly 1-2 hours of work, and as an insult to injury you also get a standings hit from your agent. Whopeee. I don't deny that there is truth to that. But you've got a week to complete the mission and still get the completion reward, LPs, standing, and the 1/16 credit toward a faction mission. Plus that 1-2 hours of work isn't usually wasted--you still collect the bounties for each ship kill. The only thing you're almost certainly losing out on is the time bonus. And people were sometimes giving that up for their own reasons already. A much bigger issue is playing time. Sure you can put off a mission, but it's going to be much harder to work areas with multiple decent agents, because that's where the probers are going to try to congregate as well. OTOH, Wt0 and istabs have made it quicker and safer to travel further, and to have a more spread out network of agents. So the situation is more complex than most people are acknowledging, and exactly where the balance is going to end up, and how many people are going to decide LowSec isn't worth their while remains to be seen. Particularly considering we're not even a week into the expansion. Let's just say that I think it's too soon to go completely pessimistic. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Ankanos Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.12.03 01:48:00 - [43] Edited by: Ankanos on 03/12/2006 01:49:12 i'm a typical L3/L4 mission runner and belt ratter. i figured i'd scope the probes out to see what to expect from mission hunters. note, i have average probe skills (astrometrics 3 & covert-ops 4) so i was playing around with probes in my home system (0.6) and i roughly 5 minutes (in a buzzard), one Fathom 10au probe gave me alot 0m hits. this allowed me to warp to 3 deadspace gates and 1 openspace mission that were not my own. i figured i'd amuse myself further and warp cloaked into these DS pockets to see what i found. needless to say i found it rather entertaining to watch other players do missions. esp since alot were doing level3's in BS's. -so much for people wanting a challenge in cases where i could not get a 0m hit on a player, i simply homed in on the player's drones instead. -had this been in lowsec it would have been a simple matter of noting the player's ship type and the rats he was killing to come back setup to exploit his ship's setup and weaknesses based on the NPC's he's killing to maximize my potential. -or, as one player warped to the next level, cherry pic his cans.. Had the recon probes been seeded, i would have had scan results in about 72seconds. Bottom line: it's not a pretty picture. a few options might be: 1. low sec mission runners need to devise setups that can finish the mission and any prats that show up. 2. work in groups with some players setup to shutdown any prats that show up. 3. move back to high sec space. this will also increase the time sinks wrecks have brought into the game even further. -even after they are fixed talk about killing the fun factor for low sec runners. knowing that you can be pounced on within 2 minutes of someone entering local when that's not what your there for is going to be a big game breaker for many that excepted the risk of low sec missions in the past. due in part that you alot more time to react local. anyway.. -it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the long term. for now, check six. alot p.s. one great benefit i found was that i can land on top of macroers with great ease! -which has been quite helpful with my ship productions. so it's not all bad i guess. -ank ---
Moadeep Minmatar LoneStar Industries	Posted - 2006.12.03 02:20:00 - [44] The problem of the scanning is another. Read here about it: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=436307
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 03:21:00 - [45] It is fairly easy to come up with a setup that will allow you to complete the missions (well, most of the time and with top skills/mods) and at the same time evade the pirates. That is if: You don't mind spending twice the time to do the mission. You don't mind spending 3 times the time to loot afterwards. And above all, you don't mind not finishing the mission every time any idiot can scan you and warp to your mission spot and eventually losing more standings than you gain, as it takes a multitude of missions to make up for a single failed one. All in all, high sec missioning looks to be about 4 times more profitable in time spent/ISK and rewards and infinitely more profitable in risk/reward terms. What I find most hilarious about the situation is that eventually all low sec mission runners will move to high sec, the lazy pirates will whine even more (if that is possible), the high sec missioning systems will lag even more and once again changes to the system will have the exact opposite effect of what was intended. So, what else is new? ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision
Lord Artemis Filthy Wyrm	Posted - 2006.12.03 04:18:00 - [46] I did like the idea of not being 100% safe in missions. It gave the pirates and aggressors a chance to take a lot of combat away from gates and stations (yay for that alone fighting should be in systems areas) I was found twice within 10 mins and both times were in two diff systems and two diff types of missions. This is a bit quick and needs to be reduced. Something else that occured to me. After being "found" I realized that it would be easy for the recon ship to come in BM warp away copy and pass to friends, rinse repeat. Pirate now go mission to mission like they would belt to belt. Camping missions? Hmm would seem a good place to wait for victims (not sentries to tank or outside interference from other corps not in gang ), you know they are going to be back and if structures disappear they aren't. All in all I do like the fact that it isn't 100% safe anymore, adds a lil excitement, but seriously I see too much potential for exploiting this to an imbalance. Yes I can fight back and know to watch local and made it out both times today with no loss of ship but others not in my experience range will not fair so well. _____________________________ ... this space for rent ...

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