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Silent Renegade
Widget Innovations The Watchmen.
0
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Posted - 2015.07.15 11:53:24 -
[1] - Quote
Everyone likes to have an opinion, so I will add my two cents worth - Note: This is my opinion and results from what I see as a substantial decline in the player base over the past two years or so. I don't ask anyone to agree with me, but feel free to comment and add your thoughts.
The simple fact is CODE and similar HighSec Space Gankers are just low-life bullies; no better and no different to the low-life that creates a false account on Face Book to bully someone online from their school or work place.
GÇ£But this is a game, itGÇÖs differentGÇ¥ you say. How? EVE is just another means to interact with people. You can interact with your mates in a playground at the local park, you can interact through one of the many social media sites, or you can interact in multi player games. How you choose to do so is what defines the difference between playing and bullying.
EVE provides four distinct zones of play, HighSec, LowSec, NullSec, and W-Space. Each supposedly providing different levels of interaction between players based on the mechanics of each zone.
HighSec = High Security Space. You can only legally attack and kill another personGÇÖs ship in HighSec if you have a legally declared war through the WARDEC system. Ganking a person GÇô killing their ship / pod in HighSec without a legally declared war is illegal and the player violating this rule will have their ship killed by CONCORD.
People who pay to play eve make their own choice when it comes to how they wish to play EVE. Not everyone wishes to PvP or venture outside HighSec. I personally know people who just like to log on once or twice a week and do a little bit of HighSec PvE mission running or just enjoy the challenge of playing the market. They donGÇÖt ask any interaction with low-life gankers that deliberately exploit the game mechanics to attack people in HighSec without a WARDEC.
At this point in time, NullSec is a far safer place to fly than any of the main HighSec trade routes, and CCP are blatantly guilty of creating this situation.
If I am in a fleet and web my Corp mateGÇÖs freighter off a gate, I get an aggression timer that will not allow me to dock or jump through a stargate. I have done nothing wrong, but am forced to pay a penalty of 60 seconds.
A low-life ganker can attack and destroy billions of ISK worth of freighter and cargo belonging to someone who chooses to play EVE for their own enjoyment, chooses to stay in HighSec and has no wish to be involved with PvP. All the low-life gets is the same 60 second penalty before they can dock up and wait out the 15 minute Criminal Timer, jump in a new ship and go do it all again. You cannot even try to defend your freighter or industrial ship, as you will get CONCORDED if you initiate any action to try to defend your ship in HighSec.
That is no penalty GÇô it is an exploit; one that CCP is well aware of and as yet does nothing to fix and curb the bulling they knowingly allow in what is supposed to be the HIGH SECURITY play area of the game.
Two years ago, it was normal to see 27 to 33 thousand accounts online in the Australian Time Zone. Now, two years on, IGÇÖm lucky if I see 17 to 20 thousand accounts. With FozzieSov coming I am already seeing numbers as low as 15 thousand when I logon of an afternoon now. Talking to Corp mates from other countries, there are 15-20 thousand less accounts online across the USA TZ, and a similar number in the EU TZ. Over 24 hours and all time zones, this is a rough average of up to 40 thousand less accounts active in the game.
People claim it is all the multi-boxers and bot miners out of the game. Really? My brother no longer plays GÇô 2 accounts; one of my best mates in WA no longer plays GÇô 2 accounts; a friend in Melbourne no longer plays GÇô he had 6 accounts; my son no longer plays GÇô 1 account.
They are just the people I know personally, but there are many others I know only through the game that no longer play, and every one of them quit EVE because the HighSec ganking - not just of freighters, but the stand over tactics of CODE bulling miners into paying for a permit to mine in HighSec.
I donGÇÖt know what CCPs grand vision is, but all I am seeing is $760,000US per month no longer getting into CCPs bank account. That is $9.12 million per year. Every one of those accounts was effectively a PLEX, and those PLEX only got into the game if someone bought them in RL and put them into the game.
Where is all this going you ask? Simple, I want to see a change to the mechanics of HighSec.
Personally, I donGÇÖt believe the mechanic should change that allows someone to target and shoot someone in HighSec without an active declared war. It is a conscious decision on their part if they choose to be a bully. It is the penalty they pay that needs to change. The current penalty makes a complete joke of the term GÇÿHigh Security SpaceGÇÖ.
If CCP can make an aggression timer that locks a playerGÇÖs access to docking or Stargates for 60 seconds, then they can write better penalty into game code than that. My personal thoughts on an appropriate penalty for killing another playerGÇÖs ship in HighSec without an active declared war are:
1. CONCORD kills both Ship and Pod of the offending player(s);
2. Offending player has security status set to -10 for all factions and a criminal flag set until that security status is pushed back to zero or above for the faction space they wish to enter;
3. Offending playerGÇÖs medical clone (if in HighSec) is relocated by CONCORD to the nearest NPC NullSec (possibly LowSec) station; and
4. The Criminal Flag set on an Offending player should act like an aggression timer, in the sense that it should bar them from accessing any stargate into HighSec space until they grind their security status back to a zero or positive state for the faction space they wish to access. Jump cloning into a HighSec station is also barred until the criminal flag is removed. |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2148
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Posted - 2015.07.15 11:58:15 -
[2] - Quote
Hang on. I gotta get me some popcorn.
Also, CODE. alt detected?
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
805
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Posted - 2015.07.15 12:40:35 -
[3] - Quote
Eve is a game about spaceships blowing other stuff up. Shooting a spaceship in Eve is no different to shooting another player in a Call of Duty game.
It always surprises me when players claim they aren't affecting anyone else and they just want to do some PvE or trade, may be a little mining. If Eve was changed to stop unwanted player interaction then.... The Miner wouldn't have to interact with the Ganker. But then why should traders have to deal with Miners when they want to buy ore and minerals. So we need NPC sell orders for all materials.
Ah, but people who buy and fit spaceships shouldn't have to deal with traders. So we need NPC sell orders for all ships and modules/ammo.
No one should have to deal with haulers, so all stations should have everything seeded by NPC orders including all faction and LP items because no one should have to deal with exploreres and missions runners either.
I'm not sure but I think that would break they game for everyone.
Go play on the Test server if you don't want non-consensual ship on ship violence. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1878
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Posted - 2015.07.15 12:57:13 -
[4] - Quote
There is something you have to consider when proposing harsher punishments for criminal activity in hisec. Imagine that you just started playing and, through either innocent mistake or the wiles of another, you aggress someone criminally and get CONCORDOKKEN. Would what you described really be appropriate for a brand new player? If EvE really does have a new player retention problem, does what I just described seem like it would help it or hurt it?
Remember that EvE has no way to differentiate between an innocent mistake, a rookie player being duped, and a deliberate suicide gank.
As for the rest of your post, being a hisec suicide ganker doesn't inherently make someone a bully, a monster, or any kind of bad person. It makes them someone who profits (either in loot, lulz, or tears*) from the poor choices of others. I've suicide ganked on occasion to inflict surgical damage on my direct market competition; my goal wasn't to inflict suffering or be a bully, I was trying to make it easier for me to make ISK.
Living and operating in hisec with -5.0 or below, while feasible, does severely limit your options and all but requires outside assistance from another pilot (usually an alt) in the good graces of Concord.
*The suicide gankers who do it purely for "tears" (i.e. the suffering and whining remarks of their victims) may be a bit pathological I'll grant you. But most of the ones I've associated do it mostly for profit or for the fun of it.
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
Inaugural C&P Thunderdome Champion
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1302
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:00:27 -
[5] - Quote
I'm not reading all that on my phone is the tldr more tears about ganking in high sec?
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
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Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
805
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:03:21 -
[6] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:I'm not reading all that on my phone is the tldr more tears about ganking in high sec?
Yes and you are all bullies. |
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1303
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:11:31 -
[7] - Quote
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:I'm not reading all that on my phone is the tldr more tears about ganking in high sec? Yes and you are all bullies. Good to know. I shall rethink my eve life.
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
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Faylee Freir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
123
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:15:56 -
[8] - Quote
I don't think this guy knows we're playing EVE Online.
HTFU
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Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
410
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:21:32 -
[9] - Quote
I agree that certain gank mechanics are somewhat broken...I disagree with OP's solutions.
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
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Yourmoney Mywallet
Jita Institute of Applied Monetary Manipulation
491
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:25:21 -
[10] - Quote
Nitshe wtf |
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Paranoid Loyd
6265
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:26:21 -
[11] - Quote
Yarr!
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2148
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:31:55 -
[12] - Quote
I've flown with and against at least one high sec suicide ganker. He was downright civil on both occasions. I think the terms bully and 'griefer' are being misused here to be honest. The source of this dissonance is that 'THEY' are playing the game for 'fun'. 'THEY' also incorporate RP on occasion to enhance this fun. YOU (op) are taking things FAR more seriously than THEY are. Once you've learned to stop worrying and love the bomb things get much much easier.
Your ships are dead the moment they undock, they just don't know it yet. It's just a matter of time.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2369
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:32:24 -
[13] - Quote
Silent Renegade wrote: ..The current penalty makes a complete joke of the term GÇÿHigh Security SpaceGÇÖ.
If CCP can make an aggression timer that locks a playerGÇÖs access to docking or Stargates for 60 seconds, then they can write better penalty into game code than that. My personal thoughts on an appropriate penalty for killing another playerGÇÖs ship in HighSec without an active declared war are:
1. CONCORD kills both Ship and Pod of the offending player(s);
2. Offending player has security status set to -10 for all factions and a criminal flag set until that security status is pushed back to zero or above for the faction space they wish to enter;
3. Offending playerGÇÖs medical clone (if in HighSec) is relocated by CONCORD to the nearest NPC NullSec (possibly LowSec) station; and
4. The Criminal Flag set on an Offending player should act like an aggression timer, in the sense that it should bar them from accessing any stargate into HighSec space until they grind their security status back to a zero or positive state for the faction space they wish to access. Jump cloning into a HighSec station is also barred until the criminal flag is removed.
No. There have already been many nerfs to hisec over past years, as anyone who knows what the hell they are actually talking about already knows. So if there isn't a direct correlation today of increased subs retention as a result after all that then guess what, nerfing hisec killed subs. tldr; Boredom at saving the damsel for the 100th time without another player invading your mission (or wardec) actually kills subs? Who knew...we content creators did, but no one listened...
WoW is that way --> Go there, or better yet go skill yourself.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Bellatrix Invicta
New Order Logistics CODE.
110
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Posted - 2015.07.15 14:39:26 -
[14] - Quote
I am anything but a bully to the miners I gank. I even give them ISK, skillbooks and a path to follow to Code Compliance.
If you think you've won, think again.
The CODE always wins.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24235
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Posted - 2015.07.15 14:44:50 -
[15] - Quote
Silent Renegade wrote:HighSec = High Security Space. You can only legally attack and kill another personGÇÖs ship in HighSec if you have a legally declared war through the WARDEC system. Ganking a person GÇô killing their ship / pod in HighSec without a legally declared war is illegal and the player violating this rule will have their ship killed by CONCORD. High security means that hisec is safer than other places, in their vanilla form, not totally safe. If other areas of space appear to be safer it is because the people that live there have made an effort to make it so.
Gankers are not exploiting game mechanics, they accept the penalties and plan around them, they are simply making better use of existing mechanics than their targets are.
Quote:Two years ago, it was normal to see 27 to 33 thousand accounts online in the Australian Time Zone. Now, two years on, IGÇÖm lucky if I see 17 to 20 thousand accounts. With FozzieSov coming I am already seeing numbers as low as 15 thousand when I logon of an afternoon now. Talking to Corp mates from other countries, there are 15-20 thousand less accounts online across the USA TZ, and a similar number in the EU TZ. Over 24 hours and all time zones, this is a rough average of up to 40 thousand less accounts active in the game.
People claim it is all the multi-boxers and bot miners out of the game. Really? My brother no longer plays GÇô 2 accounts; one of my best mates in WA no longer plays GÇô 2 accounts; a friend in Melbourne no longer plays GÇô he had 6 accounts; my son no longer plays GÇô 1 account.
They are just the people I know personally, but there are many others I know only through the game that no longer play, and every one of them quit EVE because the HighSec ganking - not just of freighters, but the stand over tactics of CODE bulling miners into paying for a permit to mine in HighSec. The number of players logged in is not subs, while it may have a correlation with the amount of subscribed accounts it implicitly shows only one thing, the number of characters that are logged in. The ban on input multiplexing has had an effect on logged in accounts, and has probably resulted in some of those accounts no longer being subbed. Multiple character training has had an effect on logged in accounts, you no longer need to sub multiple accounts to train more than one character, hence unless you need to have multiple characters logged in simultaneously or more than three characters there is no longer a need to have multiple accounts.
Quote:1. CONCORD kills both Ship and Pod of the offending player(s);
2. Offending player has security status set to -10 for all factions and a criminal flag set until that security status is pushed back to zero or above for the faction space they wish to enter;
3. Offending playerGÇÖs medical clone (if in HighSec) is relocated by CONCORD to the nearest NPC NullSec (possibly LowSec) station; and
4. The Criminal Flag set on an Offending player should act like an aggression timer, in the sense that it should bar them from accessing any stargate into HighSec space until they grind their security status back to a zero or positive state for the faction space they wish to access. Jump cloning into a HighSec station is also barred until the criminal flag is removed. No, No, No and No.
Relying on CCP to provide a solution to a "problem" that can be avoided with minimal effort is just plain lazy, learn to protect yourself from unwanted attention.
The current punishment for hisec ganking is already appropriate as it deters >90% of hisec players from indulging in it. Just as in real life the penalty for a crime discourages most people from committing it, not all.
In short, working as intended.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I
1024
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Posted - 2015.07.15 15:13:30 -
[16] - Quote
hey solution....just move out of highsec and troll them all on the forums from the luxuries of lowsec and null :)
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1879
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 15:19:29 -
[17] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:hey solution....just move out of highsec and troll them all on the forums from the luxuries of lowsec and null :) But if it's coming from outside of hisec, is it really trolling?
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
Inaugural C&P Thunderdome Champion
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1189
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 15:45:45 -
[18] - Quote
The trend away from eve is do to multiple things. The low numbers of high sec bear rage quitters isn't what I would consider a large factor.
Don't get me wrong. CODE and what they do sux, is low brow non challenging game play. I've ganked a few mission cream puffs in Apanake, so I have a deep understanding of the whole gank thing. In and of itself - ganking is fine. When the whole purpose of a large group of folks is to log into eve and shoot pvp layups all day every day - that's just lame. Even if it's mostly alts the whole CODE thing adds no value, interest or excitement to the game. That being said, there is nothing in the EULA preventing a bunch of scrubs (or alts of scrubs) from banding together and acting like deep immersion role playing chumps.
Serendipity's list of things killing eve (no particular order):
1. No meaningful pvp in null. 2. Large sov alliances moving from being competitors to business buddies. 3. Game mechanics that benefit large entrenched sov alliances 4. Super cap proliferation 5. Super cap owners being super whiners about possibly losing their precious supers 6. The creep of risk aversion into the game (every wow type feature kills the game a little more) 7. Pandering to newer players to catch them up to older players (the only way to do this is to cheapen the game) 8. CCP listening to leaders of large groups as to ways to maintain and raise subscription rates 9. moon goo 10. the move to the evolved eve to where everything is automated
The thing that has kept eve alive is the fact that players can will and do take stuff from other players. It's the one thing that's different from other games. The further CCP moves from that original stance the closer they move to all the other flavor of the month games. Once eve is like all the others the doom clock starts its countdown to the end as other games that are new and exciting flash in and out of being. Without the unique abilitiy to 'lose it all' to set it apart from other games they have to compete based on new graphics, new and intersting stuff and so on. There just aren't that many games that survive against 'new'. Staying different is what allows eve to stay alive.
If CCP needs to do better at anything - it needs to do better at understanding that gamers will always ask for more stuff and justify it in many multiple ways and that what players want is not usually what is good for the game long term. They need to better balance being in tune w/ the player base and listening to them, and realizing what is bad for the game long term. (3 teir sov timers, cyno jammers, easy scanning, nerfing HS, not actually fixing the sentry drone problem(ishtars/VNI/archons) - it all adds up).
Add to that the recent proliferation of many many small games and the ever increasing ease of putting a flashy new mmo out there. There are a lot of factors.
Meaningful pvp is the only thing that will keep eve alive long term. That's the angle they have over ALL the other games. They need to exploit it. As much as folks hate to hear it - the theme stuff (missions/anoms/pve in general) are on one hand important, but on the other hand pretty meaningless to eves long term survival. PVE isn't eve. Meaningful PVP is eve. PVE just supports that. Fickle 18 year olds w/out carreers have a need to keep all their stuff. 30 year olds w/ steady incomes need meaningfull pvp to occupy their prescious gaming time.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2762
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Posted - 2015.07.15 15:46:54 -
[19] - Quote
This thread is going places.
Edit: Also it's obvious what I'm about to do with the OP's alliance, right? |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
807
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Posted - 2015.07.15 16:11:29 -
[20] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:This thread is going places.
Edit: Also it's obvious what I'm about to do with the OP's alliance, right?
Ally in on all the war decs they have coming? |
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1190
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 16:44:25 -
[21] - Quote
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:This thread is going places.
Edit: Also it's obvious what I'm about to do with the OP's alliance, right? Ally in on all the war decs they have coming?
Oh, that's number 11 on the list of things wrong w/ eve.
11. The empire war dec system is totally upside down.
This is an easy one to fix too. Put a limit on the war activities that concord will sanction for any given entity. Cap it at 10. Having 100 open war decs and the current ally w/ everyone mechanics make the war decs meaningless. There is no need to pick and choose. The fees are upside down also. The more of an underdog you are (number of corp members) the cheaper the fee should be. |
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1305
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 17:03:15 -
[22] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:This thread is going places.
Edit: Also it's obvious what I'm about to do with the OP's alliance, right? Ally in on all the war decs they have coming? Oh, that's number 11 on the list of things wrong w/ eve. 11. The empire war dec system is totally upside down. This is an easy one to fix too. Put a limit on the war activities that concord will sanction for any given entity. Cap it at 10. Having 100 open war decs and the current ally w/ everyone mechanics make the war decs meaningless. There is no need to pick and choose. The fees are upside down also. The more of an underdog you are (number of corp members) the cheaper the fee should be. Terrible suggestions all by themselves. You want to lessen available content in high sec artificially? Hell let's do whatever the op suggested while we are at it. Before lessening content there needs to be a serious driver for it first
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
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Taunrich Kaufmann
Executive Resources Group Ltd.
17
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Posted - 2015.07.15 17:27:43 -
[23] - Quote
After reading your post I am beginning to understand why veteran players are so f*cking salty towards newcomers.
CODE and similar HighSec Space Gankers are just low-life bullies; no better and no different to the low-life that creates a false account on Face Book to bully someone online from their school or work place. - No. Bullies IRL can cause genuine physical/mental/emotional harm to people if they are allowed to. EVE is a game, and if you are experiencing serious mental or emotional distress from losing your pretend spaceship then you seriously need to see a psychiatrist.
EVE is just another means to interact with people...How you choose to do so is what defines the difference between playing and bullying. - Thank God we have you here to define what 'playing' EVE really consists of. I guess about half of the player base have been playing it wrong all this time!
People who pay to play eve make their own choice when it comes to how they wish to play EVE. - People who pay to play EVE know what they're getting into. When some cheeky mofo ganks your venture, he has made a choice about how he wants to play. When you undock in a poorly-fitted ship and get shot out of the sky, you have made a decision on how you wish to play.
Not everyone wishes to PvP or venture outside HighSec. Nobody's forcing you to PVP or leave high-sec. If you don't want to be ganked in high-sec, play smarter. Move to a different system, or fight back.
I personally know people who just like to log on once or twice a week...They donGÇÖt ask any interaction with low-life gankers that deliberately exploit the game mechanics to attack people in HighSec without a WARDEC. It's not 'exploiting the game mechanics' just because you don't like it - or do you actually expect pirates to issue WarDecs on every single target they come across?
At this point in time, NullSec is a far safer place to fly than any of the main HighSec trade routes, and CCP are blatantly guilty of creating this situation. NullSec is a 'far safer place to fly'? It sounds like you've solved your own problem here. BTW, I regularly fly the HighSec trade routes and have never encountered any problems. Like yourself, I'm in the Aus timezone.
If I am in a fleet and web my Corp mateGÇÖs freighter off a gate, I get an aggression timer that will not allow me to dock or jump through a stargate. I have done nothing wrong, but am forced to pay a penalty of 60 seconds. - Pretty sure stasis web counts as an offensive module (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and so activating it will naturally result in a cooldown timer.
A low-life ganker can attack and destroy billions of ISK worth of freighter and cargo belonging to someone who chooses to play EVE for their own enjoyment - You should be aware by now that gankers 'attack and destroy billions of ISK worth of freighter and cargo belonging to someone who chooses to play eve for their own enjoyment' for their own enjoyment.
...chooses to stay in HighSec and has no wish to be involved with PvP. EVE doesn't revolve around your wishes. The game focuses on PVP, whether you're dogfighting with other players, engaging in huge FW fleet battles, playing the market or even mining. It is a game about corporate competition. EVE was literally founded on and is centred on PVP.
You cannot even try to defend your freighter or industrial ship - You can defend yourself by having the sense to vary your mining locations, vary your shipping routes and by using the freaking scanner.
...it is an exploit; one that CCP is well aware of and as yet does nothing to fix and curb the bulling they knowingly allow in what is supposed to be the HIGH SECURITY play area of the game. - Shooting other players is not a freaking exploit. Doing it in HighSec is not a freaking exploit. You aren't supposed to be 100% safe anywhere once you undock, it's not that type of game.
Two years ago, it was normal to see 27 to 33 thousand accounts online in the Australian Time Zone. Now, two years on, IGÇÖm lucky if I see 17 to 20 thousand accounts. - I doubt those numbers (if true) are attributable to high-sec ganking.
People claim it is all the multi-boxers and bot miners out of the game. Really? My brother no longer plays GÇô 2 accounts; one of my best mates in WA no longer plays GÇô 2 accounts; a friend in Melbourne no longer plays GÇô he had 6 accounts; my son no longer plays GÇô 1 account.
They are just the people I know personally, but there are many others I know only through the game that no longer play, and every one of them quit EVE because the HighSec ganking - [CITATION NEEDED]
...not just of freighters, but the stand over tactics of CODE bulling miners into paying for a permit to mine in HighSec. - So pay for a permit you degenerate
Personally, I donGÇÖt believe the mechanic should change that allows someone to target and shoot someone in HighSec without an active declared war. It is a conscious decision on their part if they choose to be a bully. The current penalty makes a complete joke of the term GÇÿHigh Security SpaceGÇÖ. - Compared with lowsec and nullsec space, highsec is indeed 'high security'.
The term 'high security' does not mean what you think it means. HighSec is not a safe zone, bad things can still happen. People are not 'bullies' for ganking you, scamming you, shooting you and taking all your sh*t, or generally being annoying.
Ganking is not the equivalent of creating a false FB profile to bully someone, and to consider blowing up someone's pretend spaceship equivalent to dealing real harm to someone takes some serious mental gymnastics.
It's been said before and I'll say it again; if you want an easy game, there's always this.
When you decide to embrace EVE, it will be here waiting for you, gankers and all.
CEO, Executive Resources Group Ltd.
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Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
483
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Posted - 2015.07.15 17:45:25 -
[24] - Quote
Silent Renegade wrote:People claim it is all the multi-boxers and bot miners out of the game. Really? My brother no longer plays GÇô 2 accounts; one of my best mates in WA no longer plays GÇô 2 accounts; a friend in Melbourne no longer plays GÇô he had 6 accounts; my son no longer plays GÇô 1 account.
They are just the people I know personally, but there are many others I know only through the game that no longer play, and every one of them quit EVE because the HighSec ganking - not just of freighters, but the stand over tactics of CODE bulling miners into paying for a permit to mine in HighSec.
Sounds like them leaving is the best thing for Eve. We don't want or need people who get so ******* butthurt over losing a ship that they quit.
That many accounts though, sounds pretty ******* bot-aspirant to me.
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
|
Orlacc
869
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 17:50:06 -
[25] - Quote
One more time. EVE is not a PVE game. Nor is it a PVP game.
There are many other games that will fill that need.
P.S. They always say they have multiple accounts (they don't) as they think CCP will panic if they leave.
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
|
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
177
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 17:58:32 -
[26] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:One more time. EVE is not a PVE game. Nor is it a PVP game.
There are many other games that will fill that need.
P.S. They always say they have multiple accounts (they don't) as they think CCP will panic if they leave.
are you drunk?
Just Add Water
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1191
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 18:02:54 -
[27] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:This thread is going places.
Edit: Also it's obvious what I'm about to do with the OP's alliance, right? Ally in on all the war decs they have coming? Oh, that's number 11 on the list of things wrong w/ eve. 11. The empire war dec system is totally upside down. This is an easy one to fix too. Put a limit on the war activities that concord will sanction for any given entity. Cap it at 10. Having 100 open war decs and the current ally w/ everyone mechanics make the war decs meaningless. There is no need to pick and choose. The fees are upside down also. The more of an underdog you are (number of corp members) the cheaper the fee should be. Terrible suggestions all by themselves. You want to lessen available content in high sec artificially? Hell let's do whatever the op suggested while we are at it. Before lessening content there needs to be a serious driver for it first
To quote your masters: "I don't want to ruin the game, I want to ruin your game."
Just like you don't consider shooting npc rats in lvl 3 missions content, most of eve doesn't consider what happens on the Jita undock content either.
EVE conflict drivers (again no particular order):
1 - personal reasons (smack talk / ouchy feelings / retaliations / corp splits / alliance breakups) 2 - lols 3 - the breaking of some imaginary rule imposed by some group (Policing LS) 4 - Empire resources (POCOs, moons next to Jita)
Things that don't drive conflict:
1 - 100+ active wardec fueled turkey shoots on trade hub undocks 2 - moon goo 3 - incursions 4 - large sov null business buddies 5 - any form of pve or pve mechanic 6 - any pilot / corp / alliance w/ a kb eff > 90% (Vimsy is a great example of risk averse kb wootstats) 7 - any game mechanic that makes eve easier |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1172
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 18:55:28 -
[28] - Quote
Silent Renegade wrote:
Where is all this going you ask? Simple, I want to see a change to the mechanics of HighSec.
Personally, I donGÇÖt believe the mechanic should change that allows someone to target and shoot someone in HighSec without an active declared war. It is a conscious decision on their part if they choose to be a bully. It is the penalty they pay that needs to change. The current penalty makes a complete joke of the term GÇÿHigh Security SpaceGÇÖ.
If CCP can make an aggression timer that locks a playerGÇÖs access to docking or Stargates for 60 seconds, then they can write better penalty into game code than that. My personal thoughts on an appropriate penalty for killing another playerGÇÖs ship in HighSec without an active declared war are:
1. CONCORD kills both Ship and Pod of the offending player(s);
2. Offending player has security status set to -10 for all factions and a criminal flag set until that security status is pushed back to zero or above for the faction space they wish to enter;
3. Offending playerGÇÖs medical clone (if in HighSec) is relocated by CONCORD to the nearest NPC NullSec (possibly LowSec) station; and
4. The Criminal Flag set on an Offending player should act like an aggression timer, in the sense that it should bar them from accessing any stargate into HighSec space until they grind their security status back to a zero or positive state for the faction space they wish to access. Jump cloning into a HighSec station is also barred until the criminal flag is removed.
First, you might find some support for your unorthodox view of Eve game play at this blog: http://gankingisbullying.blogspot.com/
Second, I will respectfully point out your changes would not have saved your freighter. At best it would force gankers to use security tags to repair their status (something non-freighter hauler gankers do already) every few ganks so they can get back into highsec. This would just be a slight cost increase easily absorbed by those hunting overloaded freighters for profit, and a slight increase in time as they make a few jumps from the nearest lowsec system.
The only way most hauler ganking will stop is if players stop being greedy, clueless and/or lazy and shoving too much ISK worth of goods into their haulers. CCP has put suicide ganking into the game on purpose as a risk for these haulers - that's right, suicide ganking is not an exploit but rather intended game play. Your are not entitled to load everything you own into a ship, undock and press autopilot and have it moved safely while you watch Game of Thrones. You are intended to spend some effort to protect your stuff while in space. So please spend your energies learning how to do that safely rather than composing missives on the forum. |
Bait'er De'Outlier
Trans-Aerospace Industries
30
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 19:06:21 -
[29] - Quote
More punishment you say? I think having their mining barge blown up and maybe being podded for not knowing how the game works or the universe in which they fly is advertised, viewed and used by others is sufficient. I think the only further punishment that the ganked should endure might be having something like tooltips or a tip of the day about how to not get blown up appear every time they log in would suffice. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2767
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 19:23:01 -
[30] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:This is an easy one to fix too. Put a limit on the war activities that concord will sanction for any given entity. Cap it at 10. Having 100 open war decs and the current ally w/ everyone mechanics make the war decs meaningless. There is no need to pick and choose. The fees are upside down also. The more of an underdog you are (number of corp members) the cheaper the fee should be. It's not that simple at all.
Large numbers of wars are generated by corporations dropping from an alliance. If you just put a hard cap on the number of aggressive wars you have you could cause people to cap out on their maximum wars by declaring a war on a single alliance and winning. In order for a limit to be mechanically sound there would need to be an established distinction between actual declared wars and "legacy" wars resulting from corps dropping from alliances.
It should be noted that alliances have never had a limit on the number of wars they can declare, but prior to inferno alliances with huge numbers of wars wasn't really a thing.
The reason why highsec PVP alliances with large numbers of members and huge quantities of wars became a thing was because the Inferno war mechanics removed the value of being in a corporation, rather than an alliance as a highsec PVPer.
Previously being in a corp meant wars against other corporations were extremely cheap, but you were limited to three and could not declare war instantly. Being in an alliance meant you wars were 2500% more expensive, but you were not limited in quantity and could declare war instantly.
Currently if you're in a corporation your wars cost as much as if you were in an alliance, which when paid continuously and in multiple is prohibitively expensive for more casual players, so those players join large alliances like Marmite rather than remaining independent. The larger groups need to declare more wars to provide sufficient content for their members, otherwise they lose members to their competitors, and subsequently are motivated to declare as many wars as possible.
If you want a system involving in limit to work I think would be best implemented as follows:
Corporations are limited to 10 aggressive wars, wars resulting from corporations dropping from an alliance and tagged as "Legacy" wars and don't count towards this cap, alliances have no limitation. Wars declared by a corporation against another corporation cost 10 million isk per week, wars between a corporation and an alliance, between two alliances or between an alliance and a corporation cost 50 million. There is no cost scaling whatsoever.
I'd also like to see changes to the ally system wherein a defender calling in an ally allows the aggressor to call in one of their own, allowing back and forth escalation, so that the system doesn't serve just provide anyone other than dedicated PVPers a massive disincentive to declaring wars. Aggression should be rewarded, not punished as conflict creates content. |
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Renegade Heart
Carebear Miners R Us
474
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 19:30:10 -
[31] - Quote
Screw world peace, I want a pony.
Looking 4 Guild
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24243
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 19:41:03 -
[32] - Quote
Renegade Heart wrote:Screw world peace, I want a pony. Nah you don't, believe me
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I
1029
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 20:39:03 -
[33] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis always talks sense i like her more and more everyday
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1310
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 21:06:47 -
[34] - Quote
The issue that would immediately arise is the current groups would DEC the biggest high sec corps and instead of the casual attitude they currently have they would hunt them to extinction. This is the problem with limiting content to an established group. Ideally a content driver needs to open up new opportunities for new conflicts because imposing sanctions hurts everybody using that space
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13677
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 21:23:27 -
[35] - Quote
"Now, I don't want to delete ganking..." *Proposes mechanics that would delete ganking*
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Martyr Oira
The Conference Elite CODE.
7
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 21:43:56 -
[36] - Quote
OR
you start dealing with it and adapt instead of trying to change the game. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24252
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 22:02:42 -
[37] - Quote
Martyr Oira wrote:OR
you start dealing with it and adapt instead of trying to change the game. If only people like the OP put as much effort into playing the game as they do into whining about it they'd have more fun.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Faylee Freir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 22:05:01 -
[38] - Quote
Why does this thread smell like ****?
HTFU
|
Siegfried Cohenberg
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
92
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 00:31:36 -
[39] - Quote
The appropriate punishment for these carebear haulers that fly around in our space is to get their ship blown up. Highsec ganking is fine and I love shooting freighters. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1327
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 01:37:50 -
[40] - Quote
Miner! Calm down!
Now, instead of writing such a thread full of tears, why don't you just purchase a mining permit? I mean it is only 10mil ISK and valid for a whole year.
Or maybe go to wormsec if you don't like it in New Order territory?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Capt Starfox
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
866
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 05:12:01 -
[41] - Quote
Silent Renegade wrote:The simple fact is CODE and similar HighSec Space Gankers are just low-life bullies; no better and no different to the low-life that creates a false account on Face Book to bully someone online from their school or work place.
Eve is a PvP game at heart. Blowing up your space ship pixel is not IRL bullying. It's game play. There is a difference.
Silent Renegade wrote: People who pay to play eve make their own choice when it comes to how they wish to play EVE. Not everyone wishes to PvP or venture outside HighSec. I personally know people who just like to log on once or twice a week and do a little bit of HighSec PvE mission running or just enjoy the challenge of playing the market. They donGÇÖt ask any interaction with low-life gankers that deliberately exploit the game mechanics to attack people in HighSec without a WARDEC.
One word: Sandbox.
Welcome.
Silent Renegade wrote: At this point in time, NullSec is a far safer place to fly than any of the main HighSec trade routes, and CCP are blatantly guilty of creating this situation.
If I am in a fleet and web my Corp mateGÇÖs freighter off a gate, I get an aggression timer that will not allow me to dock or jump through a stargate. I have done nothing wrong, but am forced to pay a penalty of 60 seconds.
A low-life ganker can attack and destroy billions of ISK worth of freighter and cargo belonging to someone who chooses to play EVE for their own enjoyment, chooses to stay in HighSec and has no wish to be involved with PvP. All the low-life gets is the same 60 second penalty before they can dock up and wait out the 15 minute Criminal Timer, jump in a new ship and go do it all again. You cannot even try to defend your freighter or industrial ship, as you will get CONCORDED if you initiate any action to try to defend your ship in HighSec.
That is no penalty GÇô it is an exploit; one that CCP is well aware of and as yet does nothing to fix and curb the bulling they knowingly allow in what is supposed to be the HIGH SECURITY play area of the game.
Nullsec: It's only as safe as the amount of time and effort your alliance and coalition (if you belong to one) are willing to put in to make it safe. On a side note I hear the east is not so safe at the moment, or was that the south? Southeast? Russians?
The 60 second aggression timer has been known to help players find their podex home (why can't i dock??).
The ganker receives standing loss, loss of security status, is killable by everyone in highsec, to name a few. Whenever a player emails me about becoming a ganker pirate criminal I ensure they understand that it can be a one way trip.
As a mean, nasty, bullying criminal you cannot enjoy PvE related activities in Highsec on the character you do pirate-y things with; if you can call that enjoyment, anyway. You also can't stay still for very long (10ish seconds) before the Police try to kill you, so traditional war-deccing is out as well.
This is all part of the penalty. Once you become an evil criminal you limit yourself to a few styles of game play in Highsec; and, I believe that's criminal activities, station trading and the random wardec whoring. So, basically, ganking.
Silent Renegade wrote: Two years ago, it was normal to see 27 to 33 thousand accounts online in the Australian Time Zone. Now, two years on, IGÇÖm lucky if I see 17 to 20 thousand accounts. With FozzieSov coming I am already seeing numbers as low as 15 thousand when I logon of an afternoon now. Talking to Corp mates from other countries, there are 15-20 thousand less accounts online across the USA TZ, and a similar number in the EU TZ. Over 24 hours and all time zones, this is a rough average of up to 40 thousand less accounts active in the game.
People claim it is all the multi-boxers and bot miners out of the game. Really? My brother no longer plays GÇô 2 accounts; one of my best mates in WA no longer plays GÇô 2 accounts; a friend in Melbourne no longer plays GÇô he had 6 accounts; my son no longer plays GÇô 1 account.
They are just the people I know personally, but there are many others I know only through the game that no longer play, and every one of them quit EVE because the HighSec ganking - not just of freighters, but the stand over tactics of CODE bulling miners into paying for a permit to mine in HighSec.
Ganking is not the reason for tens of thousands of players not playing Eve. Find another horse. If for some reason a random Highsec nobody quit Eve because they lost some internet spaceship pixels, they should not have been playing Eve in the first place.
ISboxing is no longer a thing. It's highly probable that thousands of accounts lapsed as a result.
There are plenty of tools at each players disposal to avoid being ganked/attacked without active war. The problem is most Highsec players won't put forth the effort. It is then the fault of said Highsec player as to why he/she lost his/her ship.
Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
|
Capt Starfox
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
866
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 05:12:48 -
[42] - Quote
Silent Renegade wrote: I donGÇÖt know what CCPs grand vision is, but all I am seeing is $760,000US per month no longer getting into CCPs bank account. That is $9.12 million per year. Every one of those accounts was effectively a PLEX, and those PLEX only got into the game if someone bought them in RL and put them into the game.
Can I see the spreadsheet where you came up with these numbers?
Silent Renegade wrote: Personally, I donGÇÖt believe the mechanic should change that allows someone to target and shoot someone in HighSec without an active declared war. It is a conscious decision on their part if they choose to be a bully. It is the penalty they pay that needs to change. The current penalty makes a complete joke of the term GÇÿHigh Security SpaceGÇÖ.
If CCP can make an aggression timer that locks a playerGÇÖs access to docking or Stargates for 60 seconds, then they can write better penalty into game code than that. My personal thoughts on an appropriate penalty for killing another playerGÇÖs ship in HighSec without an active declared war are:
1. CONCORD kills both Ship and Pod of the offending player(s);
2. Offending player has security status set to -10 for all factions and a criminal flag set until that security status is pushed back to zero or above for the faction space they wish to enter;
3. Offending playerGÇÖs medical clone (if in HighSec) is relocated by CONCORD to the nearest NPC NullSec (possibly LowSec) station; and
4. The Criminal Flag set on an Offending player should act like an aggression timer, in the sense that it should bar them from accessing any stargate into HighSec space until they grind their security status back to a zero or positive state for the faction space they wish to access. Jump cloning into a HighSec station is also barred until the criminal flag is removed.
1. NPC's don't pod, but I could be down for Concord attempting to pod players. That would make some great carebear tears.
2. You do realize a character that is a criminal can't really do much other than criminal activities in Highsec, yes? It's not like that flashy red pirate is going to turn around and start running some L4s when the fleet's over...
3. No.
4. What I got from this was, "Don't let pirates into Highsec!!" -Again, that would be "no".
So, basically you want criminal's to get podded by Concord where they are then sent somewhere outside of Highsec (preferably Nullsec according to you), then not allowed back into Highsec.
Damn, I should've seen that coming.
Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
|
Kandu Harr
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 05:40:51 -
[43] - Quote
player with a criminal timer should not be able to board a ship in space. otherwise I don't see an issue with the whole thing. op is wrong.
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Alana Charen-Teng
Vatlaa Corporation
616
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 06:13:26 -
[44] - Quote
We've already proven that CODEdot is the most elite pvp alliance in New Eden - with science and math.
Can I get an "Amen!"
Can I get a "Miner Calm Down!" |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
The Scope Gallente Federation
1853
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 06:39:28 -
[45] - Quote
Well I just finished hitting like on every worthwhile post in the thread. If I missed yours it was probably on purpose.
Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
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Martyr Oira
The Conference Elite CODE.
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 07:56:46 -
[46] - Quote
Kandu Harr wrote:player with a criminal timer should not be able to board a ship in space. otherwise I don't see an issue with the whole thing. op is wrong.
So you don't want lowsec residents to reship in space after they went criminal? |
Lan Wang
V I R I I
1037
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 08:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kandu Harr wrote:player with a criminal timer should not be able to board a ship in space. otherwise I don't see an issue with the whole thing. op is wrong.
thats really silly, as silly as miners not being able to warp back to a belt once they have left it
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Kandu Harr
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 09:04:12 -
[48] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Kandu Harr wrote:player with a criminal timer should not be able to board a ship in space. otherwise I don't see an issue with the whole thing. op is wrong.
thats really silly, as silly as miners not being able to warp back to a belt once they have left it
1. combat probes at Jita undock, scan freighters for sigs and cargo 2. let freighter warp to safe bookmark, or gate 3. neutral machariel lands before freighter has come out of warp 4. bump, until 2nd neutral machariel lands to help manage the freighter and keep in range 5. neutral bowhead lands full of stealth bombers 6. ganker lands and begins smashing the freighter 7. throwaway neutral alt draws concord to distant station 8. bowhead drops bomber, ganker boards and continues smashing 9. repeat until freighter dies. ganker never leaves grid. 10. drop mtu and scoop all the loot and (blue) wrecks
Globby doesn't want you to know how easy and profitable this is, so he removed his API from the killboards. Watch the killboards.
This is not at all the hyperdunking discussion ccp falcon talked about.
CCP Falcon wrote:This involves leaving a grid where a criminal action occurs to draw away CONCORD and reshipping to continue shooting at a target.
not anymore.
player with a criminal timer should not be able to board a ship in space, in high sec then. |
Adrian Maifeld
Low-Sec Survival Ltd. Boys without pants
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 09:36:40 -
[49] - Quote
Silent Renegade wrote:... just low-life bullies... ...low-life ... ...low-life gankers that deliberately exploit the game mechanics... ...A low-life ganker ... ...All the low-life ... ...a bully...
lol ... who do you think you are?
I'm wether a bullie nor am I a "low life"!
There is only ONE "low life" around here.... make a guess...
People like you are the real problem of this community, not us.
Best regards,
a "low life" |
Alleja DeSan-na
The Blind Fly
9
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 10:29:33 -
[50] - Quote
Hello OP
May you courtesely stop to insult other players?
TYA |
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1199
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 10:42:02 -
[51] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:This is an easy one to fix too. Put a limit on the war activities that concord will sanction for any given entity. Cap it at 10. Having 100 open war decs and the current ally w/ everyone mechanics make the war decs meaningless. There is no need to pick and choose. The fees are upside down also. The more of an underdog you are (number of corp members) the cheaper the fee should be. It's not that simple at all. Large numbers of wars are generated by corporations dropping from an alliance. If you just put a hard cap on the number of aggressive wars you have you could cause people to cap out on their maximum wars by declaring a war on a single alliance and winning. In order for a limit to be mechanically sound there would need to be an established distinction between actual declared wars and "legacy" wars resulting from corps dropping from alliances. It should be noted that alliances have never had a limit on the number of wars they can declare, but prior to inferno alliances with huge numbers of wars wasn't really a thing. The reason why highsec PVP alliances with large numbers of members and huge quantities of wars became a thing was because the Inferno war mechanics removed the value of being in a corporation, rather than an alliance as a highsec PVPer. Previously being in a corp meant wars against other corporations were extremely cheap, but you were limited to three and could not declare war instantly. Being in an alliance meant you wars were 2500% more expensive, but you were not limited in quantity and could declare war instantly. Currently if you're in a corporation your wars cost as much as if you were in an alliance, which when paid continuously and in multiple is prohibitively expensive for more casual players, so those players join large alliances like Marmite rather than remaining independent. The larger groups need to declare more wars to provide sufficient content for their members, otherwise they lose members to their competitors, and subsequently are motivated to declare as many wars as possible. If you want a system involving in limit to work I think would be best implemented as follows: Corporations are limited to 10 aggressive wars, wars resulting from corporations dropping from an alliance and tagged as "Legacy" wars and don't count towards this cap, alliances have no limitation. Wars declared by a corporation against another corporation cost 10 million isk per week, wars between a corporation and an alliance, between two alliances or between an alliance and a corporation cost 50 million. There is no cost scaling whatsoever. I'd also like to see changes to the ally system wherein a defender calling in an ally allows the aggressor to call in one of their own, allowing back and forth escalation, so that the system doesn't serve just provide anyone other than dedicated PVPers a massive disincentive to declaring wars. Aggression should be rewarded, not punished as conflict creates content.
It is pretty easy, but as usual you have it wrong. I agree 10 active conflicts and legacy decs don't count. That's a pretty obvious part of it. Capping corps at 10 and giving alliances no limit is just a bad idea. Put the same 10 cap on every group. It promotes the pick and choose concept and will put meaning back into the war decs.
The reason defenders can assist and attackers can not is so that not so pvp oriented corps have an avenue to defend against 'leet hs pvp' corps such as yours. The notion that allowing both sides to pull in allies to promote escallation of conflicts is utter garbage. For the most part leet empire merc groups rarely fight each other. That's been true since 2008.
Keep the rules simple: 1 - You can have max 10 active war decs / assists at any time (10 that your initiated) 2 - It should cost a more for big guys to lump up on little guys (and scale by the difference in numbers) 3 - only the defender can pull in allies (if you want to pile on helping the agressor - open your wallet and jump in)
These simple rules will put meaning back into HS war decs.
Congratulations by the way. You haven't lost a ship in just about a year. That leaves me with a decision. I'm trying to decide if you are really that super awesome at pvp or if you are a risk averse scrub that doesn't engage in anything but lopsided easy win combat that can't (after a years worth of data) even be considered pvp.
Help me out here. I just can't decide. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1199
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 11:16:29 -
[52] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:The issue that would immediately arise is the current groups would DEC the biggest high sec corps and instead of the casual attitude they currently have they would hunt them to extinction. This is the problem with limiting content to an established group. Ideally a content driver needs to open up new opportunities for new conflicts because imposing sanctions hurts everybody using that space
Nice try. What would really happen is all the Jita docking ring heros would flee the large dec alliances because they lost their supply of layups. 70% of the docking ring heros won't engage where they can't dock after they lose their second ship.
When groups such as yours are forced to hunt and forage for kills AND you have to do it where you might lose a ship, the numbers will drop rapidly. You'll be left with actual mercs that will actually do merc things with you. You will actually have fun!
This isn't about the marmites. It's about putting meaning back into empire war decs. What you guys do makes HS war decs meaningless. This is about fixing what got broken.
You guys had a good run exploiting a bad mechanic. That's eve at it's best. I applaud you for that. The other side of the coin though is that you aren't entitled to an sort of continuity of content just because you're an established group. You look at it as imposing sanctions because it will affect what you are currently doing. It's not a sanction. It's correcting a bad mechanic. Like I said, you guys had a good run - enjoy what you got.
Based on how you capitalized on these mechanics I have full faith that you will find the best way to proceed with any future changes to the war dec mechanics. At the core you guys will adapt and thrive - you'll just have to shed all the scrubs and work a new angle. Be honest, most of those undock scrubs give you a headache anyway. Am I right? |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2778
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 12:48:50 -
[53] - Quote
Are you just that new that you aren't aware of the background of the current war system and what the general highsec PVP landscape looked like before or are you willfully ignorant?
The more you post the more you come across as an ignorant carebear with no knowledge or compression of the subject matter and whose general preference is to restrict and limit conflict 8n highsec as much as possible.
Catering to that kind of crap is frankly what resulted in the current situation. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24262
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 13:27:50 -
[54] - Quote
Kandu Harr wrote: 1. combat probes at Jita undock, scan freighters for sigs and cargo 2. let freighter warp to safe bookmark, or gate 3. neutral machariel lands before freighter has come out of warp 4. bump, until 2nd neutral machariel lands to help manage the freighter and keep in range 5. neutral bowhead lands full of stealth bombers 6. ganker lands and begins smashing the freighter 7. throwaway neutral alt draws concord to distant station 8. bowhead drops bomber, ganker boards and continues smashing 9. repeat until freighter dies. ganker never leaves grid. 10. drop mtu and scoop all the loot and (blue) wrecks
1: Wrong, combat probes don't allow you to scan the contents of a ship, they allow you to find a ship that isn't on grid. A cargo scanner is what allows you to see the contents, and a ship scanner gives you a good estimate of a fit.
2 & 3: It's not a safe bookmark if a Machariel pilot can get there before the freighter. If it was a safe bookmark the Machariel pilot would have to wait until the freighter gets there and then scan it down with combat probes.
5: Catalysts are their usual ship of choice. They're cheaper than bombers and more effective unless you're trying to take the ship down via alpha strike rather than DPS.
7: Wrong, after the gankers ship has been exploded by Concord they generally warp back to station or a safespot and board/undock in a shuttle/rookie ship, which attracts Concord away from the gank site
9: If the ganker never leaves the grid, why aren't you shooting at him? In fact the Bowhead never leaves grid, the ganker generally reships into a shuttle or rookie ship at a safespot, or station and undocks to draw Concord away.
10: The only loot that an MTU will scoop in this scenario is the blue loot from the gankers ship. It will not loot the freighter wreck because it's flagged as belonging to the player whose freighter it used to be. Looting the wreck of the freighter results in a suspect flag for whoever does it.
Quote:This is not at all the hyperdunking discussion ccp falcon talked about. CCP Falcon wrote:This involves leaving a grid where a criminal action occurs to draw away CONCORD and reshipping to continue shooting at a target. It's exactly what CCP Falcon was talking about, the fact that you're completely ignorant of how the mechanics involved work, as evidenced by your post, doesn't change this
Quote:player with a criminal timer should not be able to board a ship in space, in high sec then. CCP obviously disagree, otherwise they would have implemented this long ago.
As is your understanding of how ganking works.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Kandu Harr
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 13:31:55 -
[55] - Quote
Jonah, i sat and watched this happen, i have screenshots. don't tell me how it works. your point arguments are not relevant. there is no escape, short of ganking the machs. or being let go.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24262
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 13:34:28 -
[56] - Quote
Kandu Harr wrote:Jonah, i sat and watched this happen, i have screenshots. don't tell me how it works. your point arguments are not relevant. there is no escape, short of ganking the machs. or being let go.
Yet you're still wrong
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Kandu Harr
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 13:39:29 -
[57] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Kandu Harr wrote:Jonah, i sat and watched this happen, i have screenshots. don't tell me how it works. your point arguments are not relevant. there is no escape, short of ganking the machs. or being let go.
Yet you're still wrong
no, unfortunately.
1. i never said the cargo was scanned with probes, its a cargo scanner on the undock 2-3 the mach lands before the freighter has 'come out of warp'. a single pass on a scanner, they already have the sig 6. stealth bombers 7. ganker never leaves grid 9. shooting the bomber doesn't free your ship and can flipping the fallen loot is trivial.
wake up, you are smarter than that. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1204
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 13:40:57 -
[58] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Are you just that new that you aren't aware of the background of the current war system and what the general highsec PVP landscape looked like before or are you willfully ignorant? My corp existed for literally years with a 3 war limit on it, guess what? Wars weren't any more or less "meaningful" during that time, moreover I fail to see how an uninvolved party is ever going to see any war as being "meaningful".
The more you post the more you come across as an ignorant carebear with no knowledge or compression of the subject matter and whose general preference is to restrict and limit conflict in highsec as much as possible.
Catering to that kind of crap is frankly what resulted in the current situation.
Repo Industries was an established and reasonably successful empire merc corp before break a wish existed. Your corp came into being as the leadership of my corp got tired of the kb centric HS merc stuff and withdrew to wh space. Basically our success attracted a bunch of guys that just wanted the core of the corp to provide easy kills while they lounged semi afk waiting for a few guys to call them in as dps. Check out Repo.griefwatch.net for our merc days stuff. Yeah, we're that freaking old. Search Repo industries in the forums and you can page back through a lot of empire merc tough guy stuff. It's all there.
I was a director at the time. I balanced dec fees, the number of pilots we had, the number of targets we had, areas of engagement and a lot of other stuff that just isn't a part of the current merc stuff. The deciding contract for us was also the first contract Noir (pre dot) ever took. It was in branch. It's where it became painfully apparent that the bulk of our pilots wanted to do layups in HS and were unwilling to risk LS or null sec. It was the beginning of the end of our HS merc days.
My theme here isn't to end HS conflict. I think it's great and it's where I got my pvp start. My theme is to put some meaning back into HS conflict. I can drop a war dec with an alt corp right now and within 4 hours I'll get a mail from at least 3 empire 'merc' groups to assist. 1 will be for free, one will be for 10 mil and the other - who knows. The mercs offering assistance aren't offering to help me in my war effort. 1 is looking for free assist targets and one is looking for 10 mil to pop any of my targets that use a trade hub. There is no meaning there. I'd like to see the meaning come back to empire conflict.
I don't like that I can war dec a corporation and then for an additional 10 mil isk to marmites hell camp Jita with zero effort. In my mind that isn't how it is supposed to work. In 08 we worked hard for pvp/kills and got paid in the billions per contract to do it. Now 'mercs' put their hand out looking for pennies from every war dec that goes live. It's just dumb and needs fixed. |
Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1344
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 13:47:25 -
[59] - Quote
Kandu Harr wrote:blah blah blah
Pics or you're just another damn alt liar.
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
|
Kandu Harr
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 13:52:00 -
[60] - Quote
Mike Adoulin wrote:Kandu Harr wrote:blah blah blah Pics or you're just another damn alt liar.
fair enough. i'll post them when i get home from work. |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24264
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 13:58:39 -
[61] - Quote
Kandu Harr wrote:1. i never said the cargo was scanned with probes, its a cargo scanner on the undock 2-3 the mach lands before the freighter has 'come out of warp'. a single pass on a scanner, they already have the sig 6. stealth bombers 7. ganker never leaves grid 9. shooting the bomber doesn't free your ship and can flipping the fallen loot is trivial.
wake up, you are smarter than that. 1: You specifically, and I quote, posted "1. combat probes at Jita undock, scan freighters for sigs and cargo" 2&3: If the freighter is warping directly to a gate then yes you are correct, a Machariel can get there first. If the freighter is warping to a safespot then it is impossible for the Machariel to get there first unless the freighter pilot is dumb enough to use a safe that has already been busted. For one simple reason, you can't scan down a safespot until there's a ship there to scan down. 6: I said that Catalysts are more common, I did not say stealth bombers weren't used 7: So why aren't you shooting the flashy red pirate in the face? 9: Did I say that it did? 10: You specifically, and once again I quote, posted "drop mtu and scoop all the loot and (blue) wrecks". Can flipping is something entirely different and no longer works the way that it used to. Looting a freighter wreck still results in a suspect flag.
I'm certainly smarter than you going by what you've posted so far.
Are you a Veers alt? He shares your misconceptions to the point that you're an almost word for word match.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1205
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 14:09:42 -
[62] - Quote
Kandu Harr wrote:Mike Adoulin wrote:Kandu Harr wrote:blah blah blah Pics or you're just another damn alt liar. fair enough. i'll post them when i get home from work.
I like pictures of ponies. Pretty ponies, not the normal ones. Could you please photo shop a pretty ponie into what ever evidence you provide? |
Kandu Harr
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 14:10:32 -
[63] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote: I'm certainly smarter than you going by what you've posted so far.
that is quite likely. but it doesn't change a thing. tell me how to get a freighter out without ganking the machs.
the only change i asked for was to prohibit a criminally-flagged individual from boarding a ship in space, clarified to high sec. i don't see how this is so bad.
now imagine 10 such groups acting in each trade hub. how will that be good for the game? and that is where we will end up if this isn't fixed. |
Enia McCool
Mama Said Knock You Out
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 14:31:15 -
[64] - Quote
Kandu Harr wrote: tell me how to get a freighter out without ganking the machs.
Let me help you with that.
- Webs
- Not carrying 20b in your triple expanded freighter
- Using a JF with exit cyno
- Paying a ransom
- Counter bumping
- Jams
- Not carrying stupid amounts of value
- Growing a pair and shooting the flashy red guy
- Did I mention not carrying 20b in your triple expanded freighter?
Kandu Harr wrote: now imagine 10 such groups acting in each trade hub. how will that be good for the game? and that is where we will end up if this isn't fixed.
It doesn't need fixing, people need fixing. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24267
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 14:36:51 -
[65] - Quote
Kandu Harr wrote:that is quite likely. but it doesn't change a thing. tell me how to get a freighter out without ganking the machs. Friends with webs, insta-undock bookmarks, gank the Bowhead, lock up the ships the Bowhead drops so that they can't be boarded, steal the ships that the Bowhead drops and many many more . Yes I'm aware that you've already poopoo'd all of these ideas in another thread, and IMHO that shows just how truly ignorant you are of the underlying mechanics involved.
Quote:the only change i asked for was to prohibit a criminally-flagged individual from boarding a ship in space, clarified to high sec. i don't see how this is so bad. Now you need to provide a coherent argument in support of your idea, so that we can ridicule you some more
Quote:now imagine 10 such groups acting in each trade hub. how will that be good for the game? Hmmm lets see, it creates market demand for certain ships and modules, it removes isk from circulation via destruction, it might make people actually pay attention to the game, etc. etc
Quote:and that is where we will end up if this isn't fixed. It's been this way for 12 years, despite all of the gnashing of teeth, rending of hair and the lamenting of people who should be playing something else, Eve still isn't dead.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1186
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 14:39:46 -
[66] - Quote
Kandu Harr wrote:the only change i asked for was to prohibit a criminally-flagged individual from boarding a ship in space, clarified to high sec. i don't see how this is so bad. It's a straight up buff for freighter pilots/nerf for freighter gankers. You still have no provided a reason why CCP should change the game balance (and spend the development time) to favour you at the expense of another player group.
Kandu Harr wrote:now imagine 10 such groups acting in each trade hub. how will that be good for the game? and that is where we will end up if this isn't fixed. "The sky is falling..."
Nothing has changed. The bumping and re-shipping mechanics have been unchanged since Crimewatch 2.0 three years ago, actually probably much longer. Even after all the teeth-gnashing when Globby popularized it months ago, it still is basically practiced only by him and perhaps a handful of others against freighters. The fact that it is not simple to execute and trivially blocked by any resistance probably has something to do with it.
Freighter ganking is incredibly rare as an overall category of ship loss - they are statistically one of the safest ships in the game. Hyperdunking is even more rare. Honestly, a few teams hyperdunking freighters in the hubs would be an excellent source of conflict for the game and hopefully reinforce the lesson that nothing is safe in this game. Too many players treat AFK freighter hauling as a fundamental right to move things in this game. This leads to boring and complacent gameplay.
Ganking is good for the game overall. You want to nerf it, albeit in a slight and niche sort of way, for no reason other than you want increased safety for your hauler. That is not a very good reason to spend limit development resources on making the game more boring. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
660
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 14:53:11 -
[67] - Quote
This crap again? |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1206
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 14:59:32 -
[68] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:This crap again?
I don't think it's crap. I don't care enough to weigh in on either side, but....
A freighter is a capital ship not a beachball. It should act more like the former and less like the latter. |
Domino Vyse
Element Connective
185
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 15:09:00 -
[69] - Quote
I like turtles. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
63
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 15:10:13 -
[70] - Quote
Domino Vyse wrote:I like turtles.
same |
|
Martyr Oira
The Conference Elite CODE.
12
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 15:12:23 -
[71] - Quote
semi-professional content consumers complaining about elite PvP
After calling us bullies, exploiters and worse our style of playing eve must cater towards your needs? Call me gullible but i am sure that's not how it works.
As loyalanon would put it: Build a bridge and get over it.
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
63
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 15:13:05 -
[72] - Quote
Lol if you think highsec ganking hasn't been around for 5+ years, it's just more obvious now because of the accuracy and proliferation of killboard websites and CODE. bragging about it rather than other groups trying to keep it hush-hush to keep their strategies secret.
also hyperdunking is really hard and easily countered by having an alt with an hour of skill training, or a webber, or not being afk, or anything really. hope this helps |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24270
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 15:17:38 -
[73] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:This crap again? I don't think it's crap. I don't care enough to weigh in on either side, but.... A freighter is a capital ship not a beachball. It should act more like the former and less like the latter. Well if we're talking more realistic collision mechanics then gankers would be quite happy with that, a projectile (Reaper with 5MN MWD) massing 1650ish tons (Reaper = 1,157,000kg, 5MN MWD = additional mass of 500,000kg) traveling at around Mach 7 (2,500m/s) is going to transfer a sizable amount of momentum and kinetic energy to whatever it hits; which equates to a big mess.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
65
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 15:21:22 -
[74] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:This crap again? I don't think it's crap. I don't care enough to weigh in on either side, but.... A freighter is a capital ship not a beachball. It should act more like the former and less like the latter. Well if we're talking more realistic collision mechanics then gankers would be quite happy with that, a projectile (Reaper with 5MN MWD) massing 1600 tons traveling at around Mach 7 (2500m/s) is going to transfer a sizable amount of momentum and kinetic energy to whatever it hits; which equates to a big mess.
basically it's so much energy that it basically 1 shots anything. hth |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24270
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 15:24:03 -
[75] - Quote
^^ pretty much this
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
660
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 15:35:40 -
[76] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:This crap again? I don't think it's crap. I don't care enough to weigh in on either side, but.... A freighter is a capital ship not a beachball. It should act more like the former and less like the latter.
Wait.....wait...I know this! Newton's Laws of Motion, right? |
Taunrich Kaufmann
Executive Resources Group Ltd.
23
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 15:52:40 -
[77] - Quote
Martyr Oira wrote:After calling us bullies, exploiters and worse our style of playing eve must cater towards your needs? Call me gullible but i am sure that's not how it works.
Not only this, OP wants CCP to change the mechanics of EVE itself, because 'muh feelings'.
CEO, Executive Resources Group Ltd.
|
Hadrian Blackstone
Yamato Holdings
140
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 16:05:22 -
[78] - Quote
You CODE guys aren't even trying with these alt posts anymore. CONCORD blows up your ship for attacking a criminal? A war dec is the only way you can legally shoot someone in high sec? Come on now. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
68
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 16:13:07 -
[79] - Quote
Hadrian Blackstone wrote:You CODE guys aren't even trying with these alt posts anymore. CONCORD blows up your ship for attacking a criminal? A war dec is the only way you can legally shoot someone in high sec? Come on now.
It's also illegal to kill someone in lowsec because you lose security standing. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1210
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 16:56:32 -
[80] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:This crap again? I don't think it's crap. I don't care enough to weigh in on either side, but.... A freighter is a capital ship not a beachball. It should act more like the former and less like the latter. Well if we're talking more realistic collision mechanics then gankers would be quite happy with that. A projectile (Reaper with 5MN MWD) massing 1,650ish tonnes (Reaper = 1,157,000kg, 5MN MWD = additional mass of 500,000kg) traveling at around Mach 7 (2,500m/s) is going to transfer a sizable amount of momentum and kinetic energy to whatever it hits; which equates to a big mess.
I don't want realistic collisions. If I did want more realistic collisions I would have said something like "I want more realistic collisions"
It's cute that you took the liberty of extrapalating something I didn't say into something that would totally break the game and then imply I'm dumb because of your bad idea. I see one of your rabid supporters actually fell for it.
All the faux math was a nice touch. X times Y time Z was fine, but when you ended with 'equates to a big mess' your argument lost most of its precision. (I was going to say lost most of it's impact, but I'm thinking that would be wasted on you)
I'll give some more flesh to the beachball skeleton.
Empty Freighter = Beach Ball Freighter full of tritanium = Brick that a mach will bounce off of w/ little effect Freighter 1/2 goods and 1/2 tritanium = something between a beach ball and a brick
Freighter pilots would have the option of trading out half of their cargo space for some heavy bulk commodity. Doing this would lessen their bumpability and lessen their top speed and their warp speed. Rough math analogy would be twice as safe (against bumping) and half as fast at travelling. Cut align time in half. |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24280
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 17:06:23 -
[81] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I don't want realistic collisions. If I did want more realistic collisions I would have said something like "I want more realistic collisions" It was a hypothetical scenario based on what has been asked for many times in the past using a statement very similar to the one you made.
Quote:It's cute that you took the liberty of extrapalating something I didn't say into something that would totally break the game and then imply I'm dumb because of your bad idea. I see one of your rabid supporters actually fell for it. I never implied that you were dumb, or that my idea was anything other than bad. As for my rabid supporter? He merely distilled my hypothetical scenario into a simple statement.
FYI I am what many people in the C&P forum consider to be prey, the only difference between me and their victims is that for the most part I'm not stupid enough to get caught.
Quote:All the faux math was a nice touch. X times Y time Z was fine, but when you ended with 'equates to a big mess' your argument lost most of its precision. (I was going to say lost most of it's impact, but I'm thinking that would be wasted on you) You thought wrong, if you'd have said that I'd have lol'd and possibly given you a like for the pun.
Quote:I'll give some more flesh to the beachball skeleton.
Empty Freighter = Beach Ball Freighter full of tritanium = Brick that a mach will bounce off of w/ little effect Freighter 1/2 goods and 1/2 tritanium = something between a beach ball and a brick
Freighter pilots would have the option of trading out half of their cargo space for some heavy bulk commodity. Doing this would lessen their bumpability and lessen their top speed and their warp speed. Rough math analogy would be twice as safe (against bumping) and half as fast at travelling. Cut align time in half. Alternatively they could bring friends with webs that allow them to get into warp faster. Why introduce additional mechanics to do what can already be done?
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1210
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 17:31:26 -
[82] - Quote
I agree with the friends part. There are so many things you can do to not be ganked.
I'm only speaking to the beachball characteristics of freighters (and other capitals) being dumb. I've pounded more than 1 freighter off a gate w/ my trusty enyo back in the day. It's funny as all get out, but it's still kind of dumb. I'm no proponent of applying reality to the game. I'm just saying that capital ships shouldn't act like beach balls.
As to my idea, I was doing my best to describe a higgs rig w/out saying higgs rig. I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought.
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
68
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 18:00:07 -
[83] - Quote
ganking is in a good place. only idiots get ganked, and there are a lot of idiots |
Geyene
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 18:20:28 -
[84] - Quote
Sounds like you want to take the thing that makes EVE interesting, fun and dangerous and basically scrap it and make EVE like all the other MMOs I don't play because they don't have that thing.
There are tons of games out there where non-aggression is enforced arbitrarily through the game mechanics rather than a choice / consequence model like CONCORD. You are free to play any of those games. Leave this one the way it is.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
If you have a big enough hammer, every problem is a nail.
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
71
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 19:41:25 -
[85] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I agree with the friends part. There are so many things you can do to not be ganked.
I'm only speaking to the beachball characteristics of freighters (and other capitals) being dumb. I've pounded more than 1 freighter off a gate w/ my trusty enyo back in the day. It's funny as all get out, but it's still kind of dumb. I'm no proponent of applying reality to the game. I'm just saying that capital ships shouldn't act like beach balls.
As to my idea, I was doing my best to describe a higgs rig w/out saying higgs rig. I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought.
lol you cant bump a freighter with an enyo |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
The Scope Gallente Federation
1855
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 20:14:34 -
[86] - Quote
Kandu Harr wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Kandu Harr wrote:player with a criminal timer should not be able to board a ship in space. otherwise I don't see an issue with the whole thing. op is wrong.
thats really silly, as silly as miners not being able to warp back to a belt once they have left it 1. combat probes at Jita undock, scan freighters for sigs and cargo 2. let freighter warp to safe bookmark, or gate 3. neutral machariel lands before freighter has come out of warp 4. bump, until 2nd neutral machariel lands to help manage the freighter and keep in range 5. neutral bowhead lands full of stealth bombers 6. ganker lands and begins smashing the freighter 7. throwaway neutral alt draws concord to distant station 8. bowhead drops bomber, ganker boards and continues smashing 9. repeat until freighter dies. ganker never leaves grid. 10. drop mtu and scoop all the loot and (blue) wrecks Globby doesn't want you to know how easy and profitable this is, so he removed his API from the killboards. Watch the killboards. This is not at all the hyperdunking discussion ccp falcon talked about. CCP Falcon wrote:This involves leaving a grid where a criminal action occurs to draw away CONCORD and reshipping to continue shooting at a target. not anymore. player with a criminal timer should not be able to board a ship in space, in high sec then. all of it is ok, but remove #8. it is now broken. Please explain the issue with hyperdunking. It is the easiest form of ganking to stop, you literally can board and run off with the ganker's ships.
Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
|
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
100
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 04:05:30 -
[87] - Quote
Tldr
"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen."(Zitat eines Singles)
"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind."(Zitat von einem, dem es egal ist)
|
Super Perforator
New Order Logistics CODE.
68
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 04:21:06 -
[88] - Quote
That sure is a lot of words.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5610165#post5610165
Praise James!
CODE. Diplo
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1223
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 11:06:53 -
[89] - Quote
Globby wrote:ganking is in an OK place. only idiots gank full time as their eve playstyle , and there are a lot of idiots
I corrected a few typos for you. (your welcome) |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1223
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 11:32:36 -
[90] - Quote
Globby wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:I agree with the friends part. There are so many things you can do to not be ganked.
I'm only speaking to the beachball characteristics of freighters (and other capitals) being dumb. I've pounded more than 1 freighter off a gate w/ my trusty enyo back in the day. It's funny as all get out, but it's still kind of dumb. I'm no proponent of applying reality to the game. I'm just saying that capital ships shouldn't act like beach balls.
As to my idea, I was doing my best to describe a higgs rig w/out saying higgs rig. I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought.
lol you cant bump a freighter with an enyo
I can and have done it several times back in the day. The difference between what I did and what you do is pretty large. I didn't have to bump it off grid to gank it. I just had to bump it enough to keep it from jumping through a gate while I kept it pointed. I've never suicide ganked freighters - I've only taken them down as war targets.
What you do and what I've done are similar, but different. I'd like to be clear here. I admire what you guys do. It takes skill, planning and effort. That doesn't mean I think it's good for the game. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. It's a tough subject to weigh in on. No one should get a free pass doing anything in eve. I truely believe that.
On the other hand if the only way to get goods from A to B in a frieghter is to fit it for max tank instead of max cargo, limit the amount of value in the hold and 2 or 3 other things - then something is out of balance.
Here's my feelings on it. There is no way in hell a gang of cats or bombers should be able to routinely take down a capital ship in empire under concords nose. 100 mil in t1 scrub ships shouldn't be able to do that every time. Should a gang of 10 BS be able to trade for a freighter that is just too good to pass up? - heck yeah. The math is just off. I'll say that an underlying problem is with the concord AI. They 3 volley every ship that crosses the line. That could use a tweak. If a concord response fleet can cut through my gank mega in 3 vollies then they should be able to alpha a catalyst. I've gotten a 3rd volley off w/ 1400 arty during ganks. If it's too much work on the AI to alpha things, then tweek the lock times and how soon concord puts a jam on smaller ships.
CCP just needs to balance out a few things. I'm really not a fan of a hard -10 player being able to warp around HS all day in a properly fit ship. That's also tough. I think it's OK for a -10 guy to get to jita, grab an implant or what ever and make a run back to LS. Spending all day trading thrashers for pods is not ok (again - my opinion).
Keep in mind none of this is butthurt show me on the doll crap. We're discussing game balance as it relates to suicide ganking - so I'm giving my opinion as a gal that laughs when she gets ganked and occaisionally ganks folks.
|
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1332
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 12:11:24 -
[91] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Globby wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:I agree with the friends part. There are so many things you can do to not be ganked.
I'm only speaking to the beachball characteristics of freighters (and other capitals) being dumb. I've pounded more than 1 freighter off a gate w/ my trusty enyo back in the day. It's funny as all get out, but it's still kind of dumb. I'm no proponent of applying reality to the game. I'm just saying that capital ships shouldn't act like beach balls.
As to my idea, I was doing my best to describe a higgs rig w/out saying higgs rig. I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought.
lol you cant bump a freighter with an enyo I can and have done it several times back in the day. The difference between what I did and what you do is pretty large. I didn't have to bump it off grid to gank it. I just had to bump it enough to keep it from jumping through a gate while I kept it pointed. I've never suicide ganked freighters - I've only taken them down as war targets. What you do and what I've done are similar, but different. I'd like to be clear here. I admire what you guys do. It takes skill, planning and effort. That doesn't mean I think it's good for the game. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. It's a tough subject to weigh in on. No one should get a free pass doing anything in eve. I truely believe that. On the other hand if the only way to get goods from A to B in a frieghter is to fit it for max tank instead of max cargo, limit the amount of value in the hold and 2 or 3 other things - then something is out of balance. Here's my feelings on it. There is no way in hell a gang of cats or bombers should be able to routinely take down a capital ship in empire under concords nose. 100 mil in t1 scrub ships shouldn't be able to do that every time. Should a gang of 10 BS be able to trade for a freighter that is just too good to pass up? - heck yeah. The math is just off. I'll say that an underlying problem is with the concord AI. They 3 volley every ship that crosses the line. That could use a tweak. If a concord response fleet can cut through my gank mega in 3 vollies then they should be able to alpha a catalyst. I've gotten a 3rd volley off w/ 1400 arty during ganks. If it's too much work on the AI to alpha things, then tweek the lock times and how soon concord puts a jam on smaller ships. CCP just needs to balance out a few things. I'm really not a fan of a hard -10 player being able to warp around HS all day in a properly fit ship. That's also tough. I think it's OK for a -10 guy to get to jita, grab an implant or what ever and make a run back to LS. Spending all day trading thrashers for pods is not ok (again - my opinion). Keep in mind none of this is butthurt show me on the doll crap. We're discussing game balance as it relates to suicide ganking - so I'm giving my opinion as a gal that laughs when she gets ganked and occaisionally ganks folks. Just to clarify they don't need to bump off grid to gank.
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
|
Capt Starfox
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
878
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 12:21:30 -
[92] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: I can and have done it several times back in the day. The difference between what I did and what you do is pretty large. I didn't have to bump it off grid to gank it. I just had to bump it enough to keep it from jumping through a gate while I kept it pointed. I've never suicide ganked freighters - I've only taken them down as war targets.
You don't have to bump it once it's pointed. It sounds like what you're saying is you would aggress before they jump through their out-gate... but if they're a WT, you would want to aggress when they attempt to warp from the in-gate to their next out-gate.
Why would you want to stress keeping them from jumping through a gate? It's a Freighter and a WT, it's already dead.
Serendipity Lost wrote: What you do and what I've done are similar, but different. I'd like to be clear here. I admire what you guys do. It takes skill, planning and effort. That doesn't mean I think it's good for the game. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. It's a tough subject to weigh in on. No one should get a free pass doing anything in eve. I truely believe that.
On the other hand if the only way to get goods from A to B in a frieghter is to fit it for max tank instead of max cargo, limit the amount of value in the hold and 2 or 3 other things - then something is out of balance.
It honestly doesn't sounds like you admire what we do.
It's all about risk. Is Bob the Highsec Freighter pilot willing to risk 2b/isk worth of stuff in his triple Expanded Freighter? For this example let's say he is. He should then take the necessary steps to ensure the trip is as safe as possible. The Star Map comes to mind. +1 scout comes to mind. Webbing comes to mind.
Unfortunately, most players don't plan ahead and end up losing their Freighter/s because of it.
Serendipity Lost wrote: Here's my feelings on it. There is no way in hell a gang of cats or bombers should be able to routinely take down a capital ship in empire under concords nose. 100 mil in t1 scrub ships shouldn't be able to do that every time. Should a gang of 10 BS be able to trade for a freighter that is just too good to pass up? - heck yeah. The math is just off. I'll say that an underlying problem is with the concord AI. They 3 volley every ship that crosses the line. That could use a tweak. If a concord response fleet can cut through my gank mega in 3 vollies then they should be able to alpha a catalyst. I've gotten a 3rd volley off w/ 1400 arty during ganks. If it's too much work on the AI to alpha things, then tweek the lock times and how soon concord puts a jam on smaller ships.
Isk tanking is a terrible idea. Also, I believe CCP is in favor of a fleet of players being able to take down a single target (blobbing). Something about being a community of players working together, or something, I don't remember where I saw it.
Also, a random destroyer vs. a random Freighter. Notice the difference in guns? A fleet of destroyers should be able to take out a single Freighter. If you don't agree with the price differences, then change the market.
It should be the players putting forth the effort to stop piracy and ganking, not NPCs, NPCs punish and that's it. Stopping the gank starts with the player.
Serendipity Lost wrote: CCP just needs to balance out a few things. I'm really not a fan of a hard -10 player being able to warp around HS all day in a properly fit ship. That's also tough. I think it's OK for a -10 guy to get to jita, grab an implant or what ever and make a run back to LS. Spending all day trading thrashers for pods is not ok (again - my opinion).
If by properly fit ship, you mean a ship that must have travel mods and possibly even WCS so that it can run away from Police and other players, then okay. Frigates and destroyers can align fast enough for NPC's, but not always vs. other players.
A -10 player will likely die on the undock of Jita unless they have instas.
A destroyer vs. an escape pod... something tells me the destroyer should win every time.
These of course are my opinions as well. HTH
Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1223
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 15:15:19 -
[93] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Globby wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:I agree with the friends part. There are so many things you can do to not be ganked.
I'm only speaking to the beachball characteristics of freighters (and other capitals) being dumb. I've pounded more than 1 freighter off a gate w/ my trusty enyo back in the day. It's funny as all get out, but it's still kind of dumb. I'm no proponent of applying reality to the game. I'm just saying that capital ships shouldn't act like beach balls.
As to my idea, I was doing my best to describe a higgs rig w/out saying higgs rig. I guess it didn't translate as well as I thought.
lol you cant bump a freighter with an enyo I can and have done it several times back in the day. The difference between what I did and what you do is pretty large. I didn't have to bump it off grid to gank it. I just had to bump it enough to keep it from jumping through a gate while I kept it pointed. I've never suicide ganked freighters - I've only taken them down as war targets. What you do and what I've done are similar, but different. I'd like to be clear here. I admire what you guys do. It takes skill, planning and effort. That doesn't mean I think it's good for the game. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. It's a tough subject to weigh in on. No one should get a free pass doing anything in eve. I truely believe that. On the other hand if the only way to get goods from A to B in a frieghter is to fit it for max tank instead of max cargo, limit the amount of value in the hold and 2 or 3 other things - then something is out of balance. Here's my feelings on it. There is no way in hell a gang of cats or bombers should be able to routinely take down a capital ship in empire under concords nose. 100 mil in t1 scrub ships shouldn't be able to do that every time. Should a gang of 10 BS be able to trade for a freighter that is just too good to pass up? - heck yeah. The math is just off. I'll say that an underlying problem is with the concord AI. They 3 volley every ship that crosses the line. That could use a tweak. If a concord response fleet can cut through my gank mega in 3 vollies then they should be able to alpha a catalyst. I've gotten a 3rd volley off w/ 1400 arty during ganks. If it's too much work on the AI to alpha things, then tweek the lock times and how soon concord puts a jam on smaller ships. CCP just needs to balance out a few things. I'm really not a fan of a hard -10 player being able to warp around HS all day in a properly fit ship. That's also tough. I think it's OK for a -10 guy to get to jita, grab an implant or what ever and make a run back to LS. Spending all day trading thrashers for pods is not ok (again - my opinion). Keep in mind none of this is butthurt show me on the doll crap. We're discussing game balance as it relates to suicide ganking - so I'm giving my opinion as a gal that laughs when she gets ganked and occaisionally ganks folks. Just to clarify they don't need to bump off grid to gank.
Oh, then why do you bump them w/ machs?? |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1223
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 15:24:58 -
[94] - Quote
Captain obvious.... er Starfox
I did take them on the out gate. I think I mentioned I was in an enyo? There are a lot of HP to chew through. It could just crawl back to the gate and jump while I worked on it w/out bumping.
As to the other things. Our opinions differ. I can agree to disagree and leave it at that. We could both spend hours here w/ point and counter point, make up examples and justify anything. This isn't what I would call a new argument in eve.
OP - way wrong to the point where his ideas would break eve
Me - the perfect balance that would end in eve nirvana for all (google "perfection" you'll see my portrait and life story)
You - Well, puppies grow up, learn their manners and eventually behave like they are suposed to (I'm patient, you'll get there)
|
Naga Elohim
Aeras Krekan Syndicate
23
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 18:28:16 -
[95] - Quote
If CCP really wanted to do something about Ganking, they would make it so that you cant fit your ship in a station if you have negative sec status. (according to sec status travel guidelines)
But where is the fun in that?
I have always admired CODE. from afar. The doctrine from this James 315 character really inspired me to make better travel fits. (which is why I haven't been blapped by them yet)
I really want to join CODE. and help other people correct the error of their ways through the wisdom of James 315's teachings.
I got some Tornados waiting for orders if anyone from CODE. is reading |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
88
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 19:16:28 -
[96] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote: Hyper dunking has been used for years. I don't understand why the bowhead suddenly made it a big deal.
Because it was the first time it was used to kill freighters. No one before used it on a freighter or another player.
Serendipity Lost wrote: Oh, then why do you bump them w/ machs??
We bump freighters with macharials to move them and stop them from warping. We do not always need to move them and stop them from warping. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
88
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 19:22:40 -
[97] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: I've gotten a 3rd volley off w/ 1400 arty during ganks.
This is a lie, or an exploit. I'm feeling it's probably the former. CONCORD's response time, and the time it takes for CONCORD to kill you are two completely different things. Upon arriving, CONCORD will instantly jam, neut and disable your drones. Regardless of how long you survive in your ship post CONCORD arrival, you will not do more damage. In fact, if CONCORD alpha'd everything after they arrive, it would be a substantial buff to hyperdunking, because of the 5 second or so downtime between being useless and dead.
Even in a prepulled 0.5 with maximum implants, skills and overheated guns with faction Gyros, you'd still be short 5 seconds to get that third shot off. Trust me, I know. |
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1335
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 23:43:07 -
[98] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Just to clarify they don't need to bump off grid to gank.
Oh, then why do you bump them w/ machs?? I don't bump anybody with Machs... they do bump them a decent distance usually 100km or so but that's hardly off grid
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
|
Capt Starfox
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
880
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 01:36:42 -
[99] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Captain obvious.... er Starfox
I did take them on the out gate. I think I mentioned I was in an enyo? There are a lot of HP to chew through. It could just crawl back to the gate and jump while I worked on it w/out bumping.
As to the other things. Our opinions differ. I can agree to disagree and leave it at that. We could both spend hours here w/ point and counter point, make up examples and justify anything. This isn't what I would call a new argument in eve.
OP - way wrong to the point where his ideas would break eve
Me - the perfect balance that would end in eve nirvana for all (google "perfection" you'll see my portrait and life story)
You - Well, puppies grow up, learn their manners and eventually behave like they are suposed to (I'm patient, you'll get there)
So you didn't fit a web on your Enyo, why? Prop, scram, web.
Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1335
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 01:47:20 -
[100] - Quote
Capt Starfox wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Captain obvious.... er Starfox
I did take them on the out gate. I think I mentioned I was in an enyo? There are a lot of HP to chew through. It could just crawl back to the gate and jump while I worked on it w/out bumping.
As to the other things. Our opinions differ. I can agree to disagree and leave it at that. We could both spend hours here w/ point and counter point, make up examples and justify anything. This isn't what I would call a new argument in eve.
OP - way wrong to the point where his ideas would break eve
Me - the perfect balance that would end in eve nirvana for all (google "perfection" you'll see my portrait and life story)
You - Well, puppies grow up, learn their manners and eventually behave like they are suposed to (I'm patient, you'll get there)
So you didn't fit a web on your Enyo, why? Prop, scram, web. if it was fit for killing mission bears it was likely active tanked with a cap booster and a neut in the spare
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
|
|
Don Purple
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1270
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 04:29:39 -
[101] - Quote
I feel like I hit the lottery on my first click of the day. I hope you guys are recruiting.
I am just here to snuggle and do spy stuff.
|
Capt Starfox
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
880
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 04:57:46 -
[102] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Capt Starfox wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Captain obvious.... er Starfox
I did take them on the out gate. I think I mentioned I was in an enyo? There are a lot of HP to chew through. It could just crawl back to the gate and jump while I worked on it w/out bumping.
As to the other things. Our opinions differ. I can agree to disagree and leave it at that. We could both spend hours here w/ point and counter point, make up examples and justify anything. This isn't what I would call a new argument in eve.
OP - way wrong to the point where his ideas would break eve
Me - the perfect balance that would end in eve nirvana for all (google "perfection" you'll see my portrait and life story)
You - Well, puppies grow up, learn their manners and eventually behave like they are suposed to (I'm patient, you'll get there)
So you didn't fit a web on your Enyo, why? Prop, scram, web. if it was fit for killing mission bears it was likely active tanked with a cap booster and a neut in the spare
You're right, I completely forgot about the cap booster fit.
Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1336
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 05:25:27 -
[103] - Quote
Don Purple wrote:I feel like I hit the lottery on my first click of the day. I hope you guys are recruiting. I would recruit you Don
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
|
Don Purple
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1271
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 08:04:39 -
[104] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Don Purple wrote:I feel like I hit the lottery on my first click of the day. I hope you guys are recruiting. I would recruit you Don <3
I am just here to snuggle and do spy stuff.
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
The Scope Gallente Federation
1862
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 09:03:50 -
[105] - Quote
Don, how are the goon snuggles?
Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
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Jen Galt
Nophux Togive
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 16:04:03 -
[106] - Quote
Silent Renegade wrote:
The simple fact is CODE and similar HighSec Space Gankers are just low-life bullies; no better and no different to the low-life that creates a false account on Face Book to bully someone online from their school or work place.
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls....but the above quote struck a nerve with me.
I'm a hisec ganker. I'm not, nor have I ever been affiliated with CODE. Your opinion is that I'm a bully, yet you say it is a simple fact. This is a contradiction, and pretty much discredits anything else you have to say.
My main character is a miner. I actually love mining. How many other miner gankers will say that? I gank with this character because it's fun. I enjoy the hunting, the scouting, the situational awareness, and certainly I enjoy the gank and the escape. On my mining sets of characters I've been ganked before -- it's not cheating, and what I'm doing is not retribution. It's game mechanics.
In addition, I'm the complete opposite of a bully in real life. I certainly don't waste my time creating fake facebook pages - that's a petty thing to do.
It took me about a year of playing EVE as a miner to realize that there are a LOT of different aspect to this game. The thrill of creating a character and ganking others to try to get her security rating to -10 is simply one of those ways!
Others I'm sure have said this, but if the OP wants to be safe and secure - don't undock. This is a PvP-first game, and the sooner you realize that, the more fun you can have with it. |
Noobshot Elongur
Blitzkrieg.
9
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 22:57:44 -
[107] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:I don't think this guy knows we're playing EVE Online.
Ayyyeeee-men to that. By the way, I would like to state that I love CODE. They give me reasons to sell retrievers to people who do not know that AFK mining is very bad practice to be in.... and not paying attention to local.... not being aligned to station...etc. etc.
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Lady Areola Fappington
2612
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 01:40:57 -
[108] - Quote
Jen Galt wrote:Silent Renegade wrote:
The simple fact is CODE and similar HighSec Space Gankers are just low-life bullies; no better and no different to the low-life that creates a false account on Face Book to bully someone online from their school or work place.
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls....but the above quote struck a nerve with me. I'm a hisec ganker. I'm not, nor have I ever been affiliated with CODE. Your opinion is that I'm a bully, yet you say it is a simple fact. This is a contradiction, and pretty much discredits anything else you have to say. My main character is a miner. I actually love mining. How many other miner gankers will say that? I gank with this character because it's fun. I enjoy the hunting, the scouting, the situational awareness, and certainly I enjoy the gank and the escape. On my mining sets of characters I've been ganked before -- it's not cheating, and what I'm doing is not retribution. It's game mechanics. In addition, I'm the complete opposite of a bully in real life. I certainly don't waste my time creating fake facebook pages - that's a petty thing to do. It took me about a year of playing EVE as a miner to realize that there are a LOT of different aspect to this game. The thrill of creating a character and ganking others to try to get her security rating to -10 is simply one of those ways! Others I'm sure have said this, but if the OP wants to be safe and secure - don't undock. This is a PvP-first game, and the sooner you realize that, the more fun you can have with it.
You know, it's funny in a way. Every ganker/pirate type I've run into tends to be the nicest, most accepting, and friendly people, once they take a step away from Eve. I've met ganker firemen, police officers, EMTs, nurses (I'm one of these!), doctors.....you name it, there's a ton of good people ganking spaceships.
Now, for the flipside, the worst people I've met in Eve fall squarely into the carebear group. The nasty, emotionally ugly, mean, downright bullies with no people skills at all types.
Who'd have thunk it, nice people who can tell the diff between RL and game want to play the game in a way that generates more player to player interaction and conflict. The one's who can't cope with functioning in a social setting want the game solo-ified.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
|
Bellatrix Invicta
New Order Logistics CODE.
127
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 02:17:26 -
[109] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Jen Galt wrote:Silent Renegade wrote:
The simple fact is CODE and similar HighSec Space Gankers are just low-life bullies; no better and no different to the low-life that creates a false account on Face Book to bully someone online from their school or work place.
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls....but the above quote struck a nerve with me. I'm a hisec ganker. I'm not, nor have I ever been affiliated with CODE. Your opinion is that I'm a bully, yet you say it is a simple fact. This is a contradiction, and pretty much discredits anything else you have to say. My main character is a miner. I actually love mining. How many other miner gankers will say that? I gank with this character because it's fun. I enjoy the hunting, the scouting, the situational awareness, and certainly I enjoy the gank and the escape. On my mining sets of characters I've been ganked before -- it's not cheating, and what I'm doing is not retribution. It's game mechanics. In addition, I'm the complete opposite of a bully in real life. I certainly don't waste my time creating fake facebook pages - that's a petty thing to do. It took me about a year of playing EVE as a miner to realize that there are a LOT of different aspect to this game. The thrill of creating a character and ganking others to try to get her security rating to -10 is simply one of those ways! Others I'm sure have said this, but if the OP wants to be safe and secure - don't undock. This is a PvP-first game, and the sooner you realize that, the more fun you can have with it. You know, it's funny in a way. Every ganker/pirate type I've run into tends to be the nicest, most accepting, and friendly people, once they take a step away from Eve. I've met ganker firemen, police officers, EMTs, nurses (I'm one of these!), doctors.....you name it, there's a ton of good people ganking spaceships. Now, for the flipside, the worst people I've met in Eve fall squarely into the carebear group. The nasty, emotionally ugly, mean, downright bullies with no people skills at all types. Who'd have thunk it, nice people who can tell the diff between RL and game want to play the game in a way that generates more player to player interaction and conflict. The one's who can't cope with functioning in a social setting want the game solo-ified.
And this right here, this is why we do what we do.
If you think you've won, think again.
The CODE always wins.
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1344
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 02:51:36 -
[110] - Quote
Bellatrix Invicta wrote: And this right here, this is why we do what we do.
I thought it was because you were Hitler
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
|
|
Taunrich Kaufmann
Executive Resources Group Ltd.
25
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 04:22:00 -
[111] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Bellatrix Invicta wrote: And this right here, this is why we do what we do.
I thought it was because you were Hitler He's on to you!
CEO, Executive Resources Group Ltd.
|
Avi Shekelstien
New Order Logistics CODE.
4
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 09:47:56 -
[112] - Quote
Not long enough, didn't scan for relevant points to digest in further detail. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
978
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 14:12:28 -
[113] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Jen Galt wrote:Silent Renegade wrote:
The simple fact is CODE and similar HighSec Space Gankers are just low-life bullies; no better and no different to the low-life that creates a false account on Face Book to bully someone online from their school or work place.
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls....but the above quote struck a nerve with me. I'm a hisec ganker. I'm not, nor have I ever been affiliated with CODE. Your opinion is that I'm a bully, yet you say it is a simple fact. This is a contradiction, and pretty much discredits anything else you have to say. My main character is a miner. I actually love mining. How many other miner gankers will say that? I gank with this character because it's fun. I enjoy the hunting, the scouting, the situational awareness, and certainly I enjoy the gank and the escape. On my mining sets of characters I've been ganked before -- it's not cheating, and what I'm doing is not retribution. It's game mechanics. In addition, I'm the complete opposite of a bully in real life. I certainly don't waste my time creating fake facebook pages - that's a petty thing to do. It took me about a year of playing EVE as a miner to realize that there are a LOT of different aspect to this game. The thrill of creating a character and ganking others to try to get her security rating to -10 is simply one of those ways! Others I'm sure have said this, but if the OP wants to be safe and secure - don't undock. This is a PvP-first game, and the sooner you realize that, the more fun you can have with it. You know, it's funny in a way. Every ganker/pirate type I've run into tends to be the nicest, most accepting, and friendly people, once they take a step away from Eve. I've met ganker firemen, police officers, EMTs, nurses (I'm one of these!), doctors.....you name it, there's a ton of good people ganking spaceships. Now, for the flipside, the worst people I've met in Eve fall squarely into the carebear group. The nasty, emotionally ugly, mean, downright bullies with no people skills at all types. Who'd have thunk it, nice people who can tell the diff between RL and game want to play the game in a way that generates more player to player interaction and conflict. The one's who can't cope with functioning in a social setting want the game solo-ified.
So why is is that the nice kind caring people you mention always go on about collecting buckets full of tears and make a big thing about that part of the game.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Bellatrix Invicta
New Order Logistics CODE.
129
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 14:42:48 -
[114] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Jen Galt wrote:Silent Renegade wrote:
The simple fact is CODE and similar HighSec Space Gankers are just low-life bullies; no better and no different to the low-life that creates a false account on Face Book to bully someone online from their school or work place.
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls....but the above quote struck a nerve with me. I'm a hisec ganker. I'm not, nor have I ever been affiliated with CODE. Your opinion is that I'm a bully, yet you say it is a simple fact. This is a contradiction, and pretty much discredits anything else you have to say. My main character is a miner. I actually love mining. How many other miner gankers will say that? I gank with this character because it's fun. I enjoy the hunting, the scouting, the situational awareness, and certainly I enjoy the gank and the escape. On my mining sets of characters I've been ganked before -- it's not cheating, and what I'm doing is not retribution. It's game mechanics. In addition, I'm the complete opposite of a bully in real life. I certainly don't waste my time creating fake facebook pages - that's a petty thing to do. It took me about a year of playing EVE as a miner to realize that there are a LOT of different aspect to this game. The thrill of creating a character and ganking others to try to get her security rating to -10 is simply one of those ways! Others I'm sure have said this, but if the OP wants to be safe and secure - don't undock. This is a PvP-first game, and the sooner you realize that, the more fun you can have with it. You know, it's funny in a way. Every ganker/pirate type I've run into tends to be the nicest, most accepting, and friendly people, once they take a step away from Eve. I've met ganker firemen, police officers, EMTs, nurses (I'm one of these!), doctors.....you name it, there's a ton of good people ganking spaceships. Now, for the flipside, the worst people I've met in Eve fall squarely into the carebear group. The nasty, emotionally ugly, mean, downright bullies with no people skills at all types. Who'd have thunk it, nice people who can tell the diff between RL and game want to play the game in a way that generates more player to player interaction and conflict. The one's who can't cope with functioning in a social setting want the game solo-ified. So why is is that the nice kind caring people you mention always go on about collecting buckets full of tears and make a big thing about that part of the game.
Because bears like you keep giving them to us; most of the time we don't even ask for tears. They are given to us, in gratis.
If you think you've won, think again.
The CODE always wins.
|
Renegade Heart
Carebear Miners R Us
500
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 14:44:19 -
[115] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:So why is is that the nice kind caring people you mention always go on about collecting buckets full of tears and make a big thing about that part of the game.
You are trolling here, right? Or do you really believe all gankers are nasty people that never help anyone? I don't even want to bite on this bait. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
979
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 16:29:53 -
[116] - Quote
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
So why is is that the nice kind caring people you mention always go on about collecting buckets full of tears and make a big thing about that part of the game.
Because bears like you keep giving them to us; most of the time we don't even ask for tears. They are given to us, in gratis.
How to not answer the question.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
979
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 16:37:50 -
[117] - Quote
Renegade Heart wrote:Dracvlad wrote:So why is is that the nice kind caring people you mention always go on about collecting buckets full of tears and make a big thing about that part of the game. You are trolling here, right? Or do you really believe all gankers are nasty people that never help anyone? I don't even want to bite on this bait.
That's your suggestion, not mine, I have been gaming since the early 80's, I have come across a lot of people who like dominating others, its normal competitive play, but its the next step on from that which I find kinda odd. I have my own ideas on that, but its not for consumption on these forums.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Renegade Heart
Carebear Miners R Us
501
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 16:48:24 -
[118] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Renegade Heart wrote:Dracvlad wrote:So why is is that the nice kind caring people you mention always go on about collecting buckets full of tears and make a big thing about that part of the game. You are trolling here, right? Or do you really believe all gankers are nasty people that never help anyone? I don't even want to bite on this bait. That's your suggestion, not mine, I have been gaming since the early 80's, I have come across a lot of people who like dominating others, its normal competitive play, but its the next step on from that which I find kinda odd. I have my own ideas on that, but its not for consumption on these forums.
It's something which could be implied by your posturing. If you want to wind up nice gankers like me, then that's exactly the kind of way to go about it, but I see through you.
If you want to try and anger nice gankers like me, then go ahead, but I'm not intending to argue about this! |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
979
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:00:02 -
[119] - Quote
Renegade Heart wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Renegade Heart wrote:Dracvlad wrote:So why is is that the nice kind caring people you mention always go on about collecting buckets full of tears and make a big thing about that part of the game. You are trolling here, right? Or do you really believe all gankers are nasty people that never help anyone? I don't even want to bite on this bait. That's your suggestion, not mine, I have been gaming since the early 80's, I have come across a lot of people who like dominating others, its normal competitive play, but its the next step on from that which I find kinda odd. I have my own ideas on that, but its not for consumption on these forums. It's something which could be implied by your posturing. If you want to wind up nice gankers like me, then that's exactly the kind of way to go about it, but I see through you. If you want to try and anger nice gankers like me, then go ahead, but I'm not intending to argue about this!
Well that was your suggestion and not mine, so you are winding yourself up. I was simply asking why, as I said I have my own view of why, but its certainly not what you are suggesting. As for getting you angry, I don't care one iota for your feelings, does that help?
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Renegade Heart
Carebear Miners R Us
501
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:08:05 -
[120] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Renegade Heart wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Renegade Heart wrote:Dracvlad wrote:So why is is that the nice kind caring people you mention always go on about collecting buckets full of tears and make a big thing about that part of the game. You are trolling here, right? Or do you really believe all gankers are nasty people that never help anyone? I don't even want to bite on this bait. That's your suggestion, not mine, I have been gaming since the early 80's, I have come across a lot of people who like dominating others, its normal competitive play, but its the next step on from that which I find kinda odd. I have my own ideas on that, but its not for consumption on these forums. It's something which could be implied by your posturing. If you want to wind up nice gankers like me, then that's exactly the kind of way to go about it, but I see through you. If you want to try and anger nice gankers like me, then go ahead, but I'm not intending to argue about this! Well that was your suggestion and not mine, so you are winding yourself up. I was simply asking why, as I said I have my own view of why, but its certainly not what you are suggesting. As for getting you angry, I don't care one iota for your feelings, does that help?
Come back and debate with me when your reading skills improve. Debate over! |
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
979
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:12:35 -
[121] - Quote
Renegade Heart wrote:Come back and debate with me when your reading skills improve. Debate over!
And now a sulky hissy fit, you made an assumption about my question and then got angry about it, I told you that your assumption was way off base, so yes the debate is over from you, well you were just hot air, I was interested from the poster I replied to because that poster replied in an open way in another thread. But if that angers you then there you go, not my issue.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Renegade Heart
Carebear Miners R Us
501
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:14:29 -
[122] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Renegade Heart wrote:Come back and debate with me when your reading skills improve. Debate over! And now a sulky hissy fit, you made an assumption about my question and then got angry about it, I told you that your assumption was way off base, so yes the debate is over from you, well you were just hot air, I was interested from the poster I replied to because that poster replied in an open way in another thread. But if that angers you then there you go, not my issue.
Your responses demonstrate that you are not even worth my time responding to. Now where is that forum block feature? |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
979
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:22:33 -
[123] - Quote
Renegade Heart wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Renegade Heart wrote:Come back and debate with me when your reading skills improve. Debate over! And now a sulky hissy fit, you made an assumption about my question and then got angry about it, I told you that your assumption was way off base, so yes the debate is over from you, well you were just hot air, I was interested from the poster I replied to because that poster replied in an open way in another thread. But if that angers you then there you go, not my issue. Your responses demonstrate that you are not even worth my time responding to. Now where is that forum block feature?
I was once told by an incompetent half-wit with an ego problem that I was a nasty horrible person, and I said thanks as coming from him it was a compliment. The issue was that he was a incompetent person who was fired for being incompetent two weeks later. I laughed.. and I laugh now!
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1104
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:31:00 -
[124] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:I have my own ideas on that, but its not for consumption on these forums.
stop baiting
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Kironas Tritoris
Unas Salus Victus
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:33:42 -
[125] - Quote
EVE provides four distinct zones of play, HighSec, LowSec, NullSec, and W-Space. Each supposedly providing different levels of interaction between players based on the mechanics of each zone.
HighSec = High Security Space. You can only legally attack and kill another personGÇÖs ship in HighSec if you have a legally declared war through the WARDEC system. Ganking a person GÇô killing their ship / pod in HighSec without a legally declared war is illegal and the player violating this rule will have their ship killed by CONCORD.
I am going to correct your post. Developers have made Highsec non exsistent do to their lack of skills. When -10 4 year old characters can come into a Highsec system and kill miners and stil be around bragging before anything happens, developers simply have failed. My freind recently joined this game and has now left game, like he said what is the point in playing a game where they cant even keep their own rules. All other games, have strict policy on harrassing new players in eve that isn't at all put into effect. There are players out there WHO have been stealing mission loot and gankers WHO have attacked noob miners for years without evolving. My best quess are they are some sorry ass looser WHO cant cut it in low and null, therefore keep harrassing new players.
For me i was looking forward to have some good freinds around teaching them a bit about game then go to null. For me this only Means less time on highsec alt and more time in null. But for ccp it is 3 less customers becourse 3 or 4 adolecent loosers Arent up to the task of going for players on their own level of play but rather will stick to what they can kill noobs.
If your a High sec Ganker you are a Looser, wanna make war in highsec go wardec someone, oh i forgot you dont have the skills for that. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
979
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:35:58 -
[126] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:I have my own ideas on that, but its not for consumption on these forums. stop baiting
That was not a bait, if it was I would have said it.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1104
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:37:21 -
[127] - Quote
but i wanna know your idea now
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
979
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:47:00 -
[128] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:but i wanna know your idea now
Sorry, not something I want to get into, I was just asking the person I replied to who I respect because it was interesting me in terms of my own assessment, I worded it in a flippant way which is wrong, I had had a little wine thats why and was being called away for RL, what I should have asked is
Can you explain to me about the sub-set of such people who make a big thing about tears.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
567
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 18:00:48 -
[129] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:but i wanna know your idea now Sorry, not something I want to get into, I was just asking the person I replied to who I respect because it was interesting me in terms of my own assessment, I worded it in a flippant way which is wrong, I had had a little wine thats why and was being called away for RL, what I should have asked is Can you explain to me about the sub-set of such people who make a big thing about tears.
Only if you use question marks to indicate a question.
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
|
Renegade Heart
Carebear Miners R Us
501
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 18:01:36 -
[130] - Quote
Kironas Tritoris wrote:If your a High sec Ganker you are a Looser, wanna make war in highsec go wardec someone, oh i forgot you dont have the skills for that.
Your two man corp is not even worth war deccing. |
|
Orlacc
882
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 19:08:46 -
[131] - Quote
Sorry, unfamiliar with the in-game term "looser."
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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Lady Areola Fappington
2620
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 21:22:53 -
[132] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Sorry, not something I want to get into, I was just asking the person I replied to who I respect because it was interesting me in terms of my own assessment, I worded it in a flippant way which is wrong, I had had a little wine thats why and was being called away for RL, what I should have asked is
Can you explain to me about the sub-set of such people who make a big thing about tears?
EDIT: Question mark added
I'm of two minds about it. On one side, it's not particularly the tears per se, the victor is just gloating. Happens in any competitive game, and it's a way to get into your opponent's mind, and rattle them a little bit for the next round. So long as you're keeping it in-game, and not ragging on the actual real person (I.E. OMG I knew women sucked at internet spaceships!) I don't see a real issue.
Second (and this will likely **** off my ganker friends), they're just being poor sports and looking for some easy comedy. I personally don't agree with doing that, but there isn't much I can say so long as the people involved are adhering to the ToS/EULA.
On the flipside of THAT coin, it takes two people to generate tears. I've been ganked. Yeah, it's frustrating. I just fire off a "GF", and, if the gank bothers me that much, log off and do something else to cool down. Nothing forces a person to generate tears
I still stand by my statement that, once you take a step outside of Eve, the "Dirty scum" players in Eve tend to be decent people. Part of playing a "bad guy" in a world like Eve is understanding the big line between Real World and Video Game. You can pretend to be a bad guy in a video game (and it's actually a popular trope) without being a "bad guy" in the real world.
Most carebears I meet don't operate at that level. For them, there is no role-playing, they just are who they are without any imagination. Hence why they think that people who DO have imagination playing bad guy roles are actually bad guys for real.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13725
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 21:53:03 -
[133] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote: Second (and this will likely **** off my ganker friends), they're just being poor sports and looking for some easy comedy. I personally don't agree with doing that, but there isn't much I can say so long as the people involved are adhering to the ToS/EULA.
Personally, I think sportsmanship went out the window a long time ago, what with all the threats of real life violence and vile sexual and racial insults being slung around by one side for the past decade.
Is it particularly fair to tar all the carebears with the same brush? Not really, but I got tired of giving the benefit of the doubt and having it routinely backfire. I'm all for guilt by association at this point, that's how they feel about us, might as well give it back.
So if I can have a laugh at their expense, I will. And I don't think that's unwarranted or unreasonable, either.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
899
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 02:38:09 -
[134] - Quote
The perceptions of the ganking community are kind of analogous to the way people look at high crime neighborhoods. Despite their reputation high crime neighborhoods are not usually littered with an endless wave of heinous criminals. The average resident is usually an otherwise normal and peaceful citizen. People might recognize this on some level but few appreciate just how small a percentage the criminals actually make up. The reputations of these neighborhoods become unfairly associated with the acts of a fringe few.
Clearly, EVE is no different.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1355
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 05:39:09 -
[135] - Quote
Kironas Tritoris wrote:invalid opinion because posted with alt (or carebear with empty killboard) Calm down miner! If they quit the game because they are bad at it doesn't that make them the losers?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1355
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 05:54:56 -
[136] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Can you explain to me about the sub-set of such people who make a big thing about tears? Look, my RL really sucks and when I come home from cleaning the toilets at the train station all I am really looking forward to is making someone cry over his exploding pixel spaceship. Bathing in the tears of carebears who lost his first ship and his expensive pod is revitalizing my crippled soul.
Was that the answer you where looking for? Do you feel better now?
Actually I just enjoy to play the evil trouble maker and it is interesting how people react because they somehow think they have to mark the hero and protect the miners. There are just a lot of interesting thing happening if you steer up some trouble. It's some really interesting game play, because it is all based on other players and they are very unpredictable to a certain degree. It's not just about killing miners, at least for me. Killing miners is just the start...
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
980
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 05:57:47 -
[137] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Sorry, not something I want to get into, I was just asking the person I replied to who I respect because it was interesting me in terms of my own assessment, I worded it in a flippant way which is wrong, I had had a little wine thats why and was being called away for RL, what I should have asked is
Can you explain to me about the sub-set of such people who make a big thing about tears?
EDIT: Question mark added
I'm of two minds about it. On one side, it's not particularly the tears per se, the victor is just gloating. Happens in any competitive game, and it's a way to get into your opponent's mind, and rattle them a little bit for the next round. So long as you're keeping it in-game, and not ragging on the actual real person (I.E. OMG I knew women sucked at internet spaceships!) I don't see a real issue. Second (and this will likely **** off my ganker friends), they're just being poor sports and looking for some easy comedy. I personally don't agree with doing that, but there isn't much I can say so long as the people involved are adhering to the ToS/EULA. On the flipside of THAT coin, it takes two people to generate tears. I've been ganked. Yeah, it's frustrating. I just fire off a "GF", and, if the gank bothers me that much, log off and do something else to cool down. Nothing forces a person to generate tears I still stand by my statement that, once you take a step outside of Eve, the "Dirty scum" players in Eve tend to be decent people. Part of playing a "bad guy" in a world like Eve is understanding the big line between Real World and Video Game. You can pretend to be a bad guy in a video game (and it's actually a popular trope) without being a "bad guy" in the real world. Most carebears I meet don't operate at that level. For them, there is no role-playing, they just are who they are without any imagination. Hence why they think that people who DO have imagination playing bad guy roles are actually bad guys for real.
Thank you for your insights, its much too simplistic to define this as a bad guy in game is bad in real life, I have played the bad guy in other games so understand that. There are some interesting aspects to this, but that is more of my attempts to get into the mind of an enemy so to speak. o7
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1349
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 06:40:16 -
[138] - Quote
More people need to just play this in the background while they play eve
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
980
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 07:01:52 -
[139] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Can you explain to me about the sub-set of such people who make a big thing about tears? Look, my RL really sucks and when I come home from cleaning the toilets at the train station all I am really looking forward to is making someone cry over his exploding pixel spaceship. Bathing in the tears of carebears who lost his first ship and his expensive pod is revitalizing my crippled soul. Was that the answer you where looking for? Do you feel better now? Actually I just enjoy to play the evil trouble maker and it is interesting how people react because they somehow think they have to mark the hero and protect the miners. There are just a lot of interesting thing happening if you steer up some trouble. It's some really interesting game play, because it is all based on other players and they are very unpredictable to a certain degree. It's not just about killing miners, at least for me. Killing miners is just the start...
Your answer is incorrect, though I do believe that you are a member of that sub-set.
By the way I do not protect miners, because they can get into a Skiff or Procurer and fit a tank, so you only cull the weak and foolish.
And my actions have a foundation in my own self-interest, does that confuse you?
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1355
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 07:05:18 -
[140] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Can you explain to me about the sub-set of such people who make a big thing about tears? Look, my RL really sucks and when I come home from cleaning the toilets at the train station all I am really looking forward to is making someone cry over his exploding pixel spaceship. Bathing in the tears of carebears who lost his first ship and his expensive pod is revitalizing my crippled soul. Was that the answer you where looking for? Do you feel better now? Actually I just enjoy to play the evil trouble maker and it is interesting how people react because they somehow think they have to mark the hero and protect the miners. There are just a lot of interesting thing happening if you steer up some trouble. It's some really interesting game play, because it is all based on other players and they are very unpredictable to a certain degree. It's not just about killing miners, at least for me. Killing miners is just the start... Your answer is incorrect, though I do believe that you are a member of that sub-set. By the way I do not protect miners, because they can get into a Skiff or Procurer and fit a tank, so you only cull the weak and foolish. And my actions have a foundation in my own self-interest, does that confuse you? I am in no way talking about you. I never even met you ingame. It seams you don't even grasp half of the stuff we are doing.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
980
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 07:08:34 -
[141] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Can you explain to me about the sub-set of such people who make a big thing about tears? Look, my RL really sucks and when I come home from cleaning the toilets at the train station all I am really looking forward to is making someone cry over his exploding pixel spaceship. Bathing in the tears of carebears who lost his first ship and his expensive pod is revitalizing my crippled soul. Was that the answer you where looking for? Do you feel better now? Actually I just enjoy to play the evil trouble maker and it is interesting how people react because they somehow think they have to mark the hero and protect the miners. There are just a lot of interesting thing happening if you steer up some trouble. It's some really interesting game play, because it is all based on other players and they are very unpredictable to a certain degree. It's not just about killing miners, at least for me. Killing miners is just the start... Your answer is incorrect, though I do believe that you are a member of that sub-set. By the way I do not protect miners, because they can get into a Skiff or Procurer and fit a tank, so you only cull the weak and foolish. And my actions have a foundation in my own self-interest, does that confuse you? I am in no way talking about you. I never even met you ingame. It seams you don't even grasp half of the stuff we are doing.
We don't often cross over in terms of TZ, though I have seen you around a few times, mostly you are docked up afk when I am active. In terms of grasping half the stuff that you are doing, if you say so.
You are definitely a member of that sub-set.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Capt Starfox
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
881
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 07:44:44 -
[142] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Well that was your suggestion and not mine, so you are winding yourself up. I was simply asking why, as I said I have my own view of why, but its certainly not what you are suggesting. As for getting you angry, I don't care one iota for your feelings, does that help?
Dracvlad wrote: And now a sulky hissy fit, you made an assumption about my question and then got angry about it, I told you that your assumption was way off base, so yes the debate is over from you, well you were just hot air, I was interested from the poster I replied to because that poster replied in an open way in another thread. But if that angers you then there you go, not my issue.
Dracvlad wrote:
Your answer is incorrect, though I do believe that you are a member of that sub-set.
By the way I do not protect miners, because they can get into a Skiff or Procurer and fit a tank, so you only cull the weak and foolish.
And my actions have a foundation in my own self-interest, does that confuse you?
Dracvlad wrote: I was once told by an incompetent half-wit with an ego problem that I was a nasty horrible person, and I said thanks as coming from him it was a compliment. The issue was that he was an incompetent person who was fired for being incompetent two weeks later. I laughed.. and I laugh now!
Dracvlad wrote: We don't often cross over in terms of TZ, though I have seen you around a few times, mostly you are docked up afk when I am active. In terms of grasping half the stuff that you are doing, if you say so.
You are definitely a member of that sub-set.
For someone who scored their first CODE. Catalyst about 4 months ago you sure do seem quite full of yourself.
You don't protect miners? That Falcon thou..
You've played as a "bad guy" in other video games? I doubt it.
Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1349
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 08:10:13 -
[143] - Quote
I once white knighted against a group of Russian gankers operating in Lanngisi who had another Marmite in their group because he was scaring off my targets (this was eventually dealt with) but in the mean while I decided to kill suspects and what not but found they got quite a bit more upset when the target survived. I took it a step further and fitted 2 large rep ospreys and followed their scout about with my own.
It was quite rewarding with the Ruskie tears (google translate probably made it funnier then it was originally) until I saved a praticular RNI bearing it up like a boss with a blinged fit. I brought the ospreys in behind the gankers and as they lit him up I saved him too. He dipped low into structure but my heated reps kept him up just. After the agressors were all popped did I get a thank you? No instead this pilot decided to lock up my ospreys who were now aligning out and start firing... After warping off I tried to convo him and was blocked... Ok he must have thought I was a ganker so I explained to him in local with the other osprey and he blocked it too... If only I had let him shoot the other osprey too because I would have had my own RNI mail from the ungrateful bear who never even left the mission pocket even with 30% structure. This is why I do not white knight much as the bears for the most part are not worth saving
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1106
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 08:20:03 -
[144] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:I once white knighted against a group of Russian gankers operating in Lanngisi who had another Marmite in their group because he was scaring off my targets (this was eventually dealt with) but in the mean while I decided to kill suspects and what not but found they got quite a bit more upset when the target survived. I took it a step further and fitted 2 large rep ospreys and followed their scout about with my own.
It was quite rewarding with the Ruskie tears (google translate probably made it funnier then it was originally) until I saved a praticular RNI bearing it up like a boss with a blinged fit. I brought the ospreys in behind the gankers and as they lit him up I saved him too. He dipped low into structure but my heated reps kept him up just. After the agressors were all popped did I get a thank you? No instead this pilot decided to lock up my ospreys who were now aligning out and start firing... After warping off I tried to convo him and was blocked... Ok he must have thought I was a ganker so I explained to him in local with the other osprey and he blocked it too... If only I had let him shoot the other osprey too because I would have had my own RNI mail from the ungrateful bear who never even left the mission pocket even with 30% structure. This is why I do not white knight much as the bears for the most part are not worth saving
wish marmite would white knight me, im too scared to come to highsec because of you guys :(
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1349
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 08:29:04 -
[145] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:I once white knighted against a group of Russian gankers operating in Lanngisi who had another Marmite in their group because he was scaring off my targets (this was eventually dealt with) but in the mean while I decided to kill suspects and what not but found they got quite a bit more upset when the target survived. I took it a step further and fitted 2 large rep ospreys and followed their scout about with my own.
It was quite rewarding with the Ruskie tears (google translate probably made it funnier then it was originally) until I saved a praticular RNI bearing it up like a boss with a blinged fit. I brought the ospreys in behind the gankers and as they lit him up I saved him too. He dipped low into structure but my heated reps kept him up just. After the agressors were all popped did I get a thank you? No instead this pilot decided to lock up my ospreys who were now aligning out and start firing... After warping off I tried to convo him and was blocked... Ok he must have thought I was a ganker so I explained to him in local with the other osprey and he blocked it too... If only I had let him shoot the other osprey too because I would have had my own RNI mail from the ungrateful bear who never even left the mission pocket even with 30% structure. This is why I do not white knight much as the bears for the most part are not worth saving wish marmite would white knight me, im too scared to come to highsec because of you guys :( Doesn't pay well enough. Killing people with kill rights and mailing the owner is far more profitable then saving people from immediate destruction. Go figure
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1108
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 08:50:32 -
[146] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:I once white knighted against a group of Russian gankers operating in Lanngisi who had another Marmite in their group because he was scaring off my targets (this was eventually dealt with) but in the mean while I decided to kill suspects and what not but found they got quite a bit more upset when the target survived. I took it a step further and fitted 2 large rep ospreys and followed their scout about with my own.
It was quite rewarding with the Ruskie tears (google translate probably made it funnier then it was originally) until I saved a praticular RNI bearing it up like a boss with a blinged fit. I brought the ospreys in behind the gankers and as they lit him up I saved him too. He dipped low into structure but my heated reps kept him up just. After the agressors were all popped did I get a thank you? No instead this pilot decided to lock up my ospreys who were now aligning out and start firing... After warping off I tried to convo him and was blocked... Ok he must have thought I was a ganker so I explained to him in local with the other osprey and he blocked it too... If only I had let him shoot the other osprey too because I would have had my own RNI mail from the ungrateful bear who never even left the mission pocket even with 30% structure. This is why I do not white knight much as the bears for the most part are not worth saving wish marmite would white knight me, im too scared to come to highsec because of you guys :( Doesn't pay well enough. Killing people with kill rights and mailing the owner is far more profitable then saving people from immediate destruction. Go figure
you kill people with killrights and mail the owner and get isk for it? :O
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
980
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 08:51:43 -
[147] - Quote
Capt Starfox wrote:For someone who scored their first CODE. Catalyst about 4 months ago you sure do seem quite full of yourself.
You don't protect miners? That Falcon thou..
You've played as a "bad guy" in other video games? I doubt it.
So you don't believe in watching how the enemy operates before jumping in, and in any case kills are only denoting that you shot something, yesterday I saved a freighter from Globby and I was FC'ing the fleet that saved it, did not get a kill then either....
Miners have the ability to jump into a Skiff that can be tanked so well that they will not be bothered unless they are someone that the gankers really want to kill.
I played a PBM game called the Hunting in the 80's, was a brutal game and there is a tragedy around it, you know nothing ...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
980
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 09:15:24 -
[148] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:I once white knighted against a group of Russian gankers operating in Lanngisi who had another Marmite in their group because he was scaring off my targets (this was eventually dealt with) but in the mean while I decided to kill suspects and what not but found they got quite a bit more upset when the target survived. I took it a step further and fitted 2 large rep ospreys and followed their scout about with my own.
It was quite rewarding with the Ruskie tears (google translate probably made it funnier then it was originally) until I saved a praticular RNI bearing it up like a boss with a blinged fit. I brought the ospreys in behind the gankers and as they lit him up I saved him too. He dipped low into structure but my heated reps kept him up just. After the agressors were all popped did I get a thank you? No instead this pilot decided to lock up my ospreys who were now aligning out and start firing... After warping off I tried to convo him and was blocked... Ok he must have thought I was a ganker so I explained to him in local with the other osprey and he blocked it too... If only I had let him shoot the other osprey too because I would have had my own RNI mail from the ungrateful bear who never even left the mission pocket even with 30% structure. This is why I do not white knight much as the bears for the most part are not worth saving
Yeah some people are just so ungrateful, but you had fun doing it, which is the main thing. What you should do is send him a bill for services rendered as you are now a Merc and if he does not pay war dec him...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1353
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 09:17:08 -
[149] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:I once white knighted against a group of Russian gankers operating in Lanngisi who had another Marmite in their group because he was scaring off my targets (this was eventually dealt with) but in the mean while I decided to kill suspects and what not but found they got quite a bit more upset when the target survived. I took it a step further and fitted 2 large rep ospreys and followed their scout about with my own.
It was quite rewarding with the Ruskie tears (google translate probably made it funnier then it was originally) until I saved a praticular RNI bearing it up like a boss with a blinged fit. I brought the ospreys in behind the gankers and as they lit him up I saved him too. He dipped low into structure but my heated reps kept him up just. After the agressors were all popped did I get a thank you? No instead this pilot decided to lock up my ospreys who were now aligning out and start firing... After warping off I tried to convo him and was blocked... Ok he must have thought I was a ganker so I explained to him in local with the other osprey and he blocked it too... If only I had let him shoot the other osprey too because I would have had my own RNI mail from the ungrateful bear who never even left the mission pocket even with 30% structure. This is why I do not white knight much as the bears for the most part are not worth saving Yeah some people are just so ungrateful, but you had fun doing it, which is the main thing. What you should do is send him a bill for services rendered as you are now a Merc and if he does not pay war dec him... I killed it later by can flipping him since he was willing to shoot my ospreys
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1353
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 09:21:11 -
[150] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:
you kill people with killrights and mail the owner and get isk for it? :O
'Dear koiso Phoenix, I am writing to inform you that on 15-04-2015 The Marmite Collective, and more specifiically The Somalian Coast Guard Authority took vengence for you against Gorst 93 for his illegal pirate actions against you. We were able to catch him in the act of procuring funds for more pirating using his pride and joy Kill: Gorst 93 (Raven). We were also able to collect his corpse Kill: Gorst 93 (Capsule) and are in the process of auctioning it for the purpose of funding the war against other such pirates. We were pleased to have been able to do this for you and look forward to doing so in the future.
If you would be so kind as to reply back with what this criminal did to deserve our justice it would be greatly appreciated.
PS any Tips for this service are greatly appreciated but not required. After all justice is it's own reward :)'
after sending this I got 200mil. It's only memorable as the donation was worth more then the kill mail was
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
|
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
980
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 10:04:37 -
[151] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:I once white knighted against a group of Russian gankers operating in Lanngisi who had another Marmite in their group because he was scaring off my targets (this was eventually dealt with) but in the mean while I decided to kill suspects and what not but found they got quite a bit more upset when the target survived. I took it a step further and fitted 2 large rep ospreys and followed their scout about with my own.
It was quite rewarding with the Ruskie tears (google translate probably made it funnier then it was originally) until I saved a praticular RNI bearing it up like a boss with a blinged fit. I brought the ospreys in behind the gankers and as they lit him up I saved him too. He dipped low into structure but my heated reps kept him up just. After the agressors were all popped did I get a thank you? No instead this pilot decided to lock up my ospreys who were now aligning out and start firing... After warping off I tried to convo him and was blocked... Ok he must have thought I was a ganker so I explained to him in local with the other osprey and he blocked it too... If only I had let him shoot the other osprey too because I would have had my own RNI mail from the ungrateful bear who never even left the mission pocket even with 30% structure. This is why I do not white knight much as the bears for the most part are not worth saving Yeah some people are just so ungrateful, but you had fun doing it, which is the main thing. What you should do is send him a bill for services rendered as you are now a Merc and if he does not pay war dec him... I killed it later by can flipping him since he was willing to shoot my ospreys
Well he deserved it, nice one!!!!
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Requimaryon
88th Armored Division Corporation
8
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 11:35:18 -
[152] - Quote
If hi-sec gankers are bullies like it is said, just STOP talking to/about them. Bullies are attention starved people. They do it because they are flawed, have a need to fill a void but they don't know any way other than doing harm to get attention. So if you really think that way, again I repeat, STOP talking to/about them on the forums or in the game, just ignore their existance and the problem will go away instantly.
If by any chance they are reasonable people just having fun shooting other people who thinks they are safe just because they are in hi-sec, well then this will not make them quit ganking you. Because they are having fun, probably more than you.
I have nothing against hi-sec ganking, especially if it is done for profit. My only complaint is there is not many things that can go wrong for gankers. I mean everybody seems to talk about EVE being risky all around including hi-sec etc, but for gankers, they don't have to risk much and there is no good mechanic that will make them sweat, outsmart the opponent or whatever. There is no "fight" between the ganker and the ganked. I don't know what would you implement to make it happen, I have no idea, but that is the only think that bothers me. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1110
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 11:49:30 -
[153] - Quote
carebears are bullies, they are always posting these hate threads on the forums and trying to hurt peoples feelings, its not really nice, gankers have feelings too you know
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13741
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 11:53:32 -
[154] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:More people need to just play this in the background while they play eve
Was hoping for "No Rest for the Wicked", was pleasantly surprised. Would click again.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Lady Areola Fappington
2627
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Posted - 2015.07.20 12:16:35 -
[155] - Quote
Requimaryon wrote:If hi-sec gankers are bullies like it is said, just STOP talking to/about them. Bullies are attention starved people. They do it because they are flawed, have a need to fill a void but they don't know any way other than doing harm to get attention. So if you really think that way, again I repeat, STOP talking to/about them on the forums or in the game, just ignore their existance and the problem will go away instantly.
If by any chance they are reasonable people just having fun shooting other people who thinks they are safe just because they are in hi-sec, well then this will not make them quit ganking you. Because they are having fun, probably more than you.
I have nothing against hi-sec ganking, especially if it is done for profit. My only complaint is there is not many things that can go wrong for gankers. I mean everybody seems to talk about EVE being risky all around including hi-sec etc, but for gankers, they don't have to risk much and there is no good mechanic that will make them sweat, outsmart the opponent or whatever. There is no "fight" between the ganker and the ganked. I don't know what would you implement to make it happen, I have no idea, but that is the only think that bothers me.
The fight vs a ganker starts well before antimatter starts flying. The easiest way to defeat a ganker is to keep an eye on local, and local space around your ship. Unknown person starts cuddling up next to your barge, dock. Bunch of blinky Reds pop up in local, dock.
This is how a miner beats gankers. If the gankers are on grid, it's too late.
The problem is, running away doesn't fulfill the "good guy fight back and defeats baddies " trope that people have come to expect from games.
A ganker isn't playing the same game most eve players are playing, so to speak. You cannot defeat them by killing the ships, as the ships are a disposable item anyway. You can't ISK war them, as the vast majority don't care about losing spacebux to get a kill.
The sole motivation for a ganker is to get a kill. You deny the kill (and tears), then you've denied them the one thing they wanted. The most effective way to do that is to be ATK, paying attention, and docking up when baddies arrive.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2795
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 12:20:43 -
[156] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:carebears are bullies, they are always posting these hate threads on the forums and trying to hurt peoples feelings, its not really nice, gankers have feelings too you know You have no idea how bad carebears actually are until you pop one and then get a mail/convo from one and the entire thing is just a continuous stream of death threats, racial and homophobic slurs and accusations about you being a child molester. Mission bears are by far the worst when it comes to doing that kind of thing
Miners are usually all sad and intent on playing the victim maybe with some indignant anger thrown in. Mission bears just totally lose their **** and turn into some kind of terrible hate volcano.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1242
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 12:52:43 -
[157] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:The sole motivation for a ganker is to get a kill. You deny the kill (and tears), then you've denied them the one thing they wanted. The most effective way to do that is to be ATK, paying attention, and docking up when baddies arrive. In other words, follow The Code.
The ganker-gankee relationship is the classic predator vs. prey one. The rabbit doesn't "win" by whipping out a katana and chopping the oncoming wolf into pieces. No, that rabbit wins by either never being seen by that wolf, evolving into a porcupine (some how - ok, this part of the analogy is a little weak) too tough for the wolf to bite, or just dashing into his burrow at the last second with his carrot leaving the wolf howling in frustration outside.
You can easily beat the gankers. I know it may not feel like it, but every time you dock safely with your ore or cargo you have beaten them. Unlike the rabbit though, you can also go out and spoil their efforts too. The punitive highsec mechanics are such that if you know where the gankers are operating it is trivial to beat them if you so desire. It probably isn't worth the effort most of the time to save ungrateful AFK players, but if you want to there is a whole community of Anti-Gankers that do this in their spare time.
But as the Lady says, the best way to beat them is to not let them catch you in the first place, and if they do, save your tears and just congratulate them on their win and move on. Then let just let it go and be more careful in the future, or start plotting your delicious in-game revenge against them. |
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1357
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 13:10:53 -
[158] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Lan Wang wrote:carebears are bullies, they are always posting these hate threads on the forums and trying to hurt peoples feelings, its not really nice, gankers have feelings too you know You have no idea how bad carebears actually are until you pop one and then get a mail/convo from one and the entire thing is just a continuous stream of death threats, racial and homophobic slurs and accusations about you being a child molester. Mission bears are by far the worst when it comes to doing that kind of thing Miners are usually all sad and intent on playing the victim maybe with some indignant anger thrown in. Mission bears just totally lose their **** and turn into some kind of terrible hate volcano. To date I have not had a death threat (other then a death threat against my in game character in a very rp angry mail against Noragen which was extreamly well thought out and I would post here if I didn't delete it while clearing out my mail box for #reasons). I have had angry mails calling me every age from 5-12 and claiming to be supported by my parents and living in a subterranean structure. I've been told that I suck at PvP and if I don't reimburse *victim* immediately my whole alliance will be hell camped out of existence because they were a major goonswarm director. Then they will give my name as the reason to the alliance until they remove me from the alliance. Actually I think I have killed every single goonswarm director ALT in the game especially in my time in w-space when we killed null bears attempting to utilize out wormhole as a highway to highsec without paying the toll (a good fight). But a real life death threat is something I'm yet to experience for playing a game and I can milk tears with the best of them when it seems appropriate. I need to kill more mission bears...
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1117
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 13:13:07 -
[159] - Quote
rp mails make me happy, i always send them to people who shoot my mtu's i forget about :)
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2799
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 13:15:17 -
[160] - Quote
If you haven't had a dude formerly in a golem threaten to kill/**** you and/or your family while simultaneously telling you that you are a psychopath and child molester then you are delinquent on your ninja-ing and I suggest you go to osmon, simela or sheroo and get to probing. |
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1358
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Posted - 2015.07.20 13:15:52 -
[161] - Quote
I love RP when it's done right/fun. Needs just that right mix of your character and game facts without going too silly. Like Tisi from CODE. who I love to argue/support depending on their current relations with my current alliance
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1358
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 13:17:29 -
[162] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:If you haven't had a dude formerly in a golem threaten to kill/**** you and/or your family while simultaneously telling you that you are a psychopath and child molester then you are delinquent on your ninja-ing and I suggest you go to osmon, simela or sheroo and get to probing. Well the Apanake hub constellation is a regular hunting ground of mine. So is Lanngisi. I don't make it up to Osmon enough I will have to try it out
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Desk Averti
Averti Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 16:51:06 -
[163] - Quote
Thats a lot of opinions....
Mine is that high sec gankers currently have it too easy.
There is no effective downside to their activity: losing a cheap ship is no great pain, and no pain at all if reimbursed, as practised by CODE; and low sec status is no great penalty if one has an alt for other activities.
The high sec ganker can currently sit in a high sec station and be brought out to kill a target scouted out by a high sec status alt, then left to be concorded. Its all too easy, and annoyingly far many eve players find this amusing.
Most things in Eve are difficult and its players mostly like it this way. Some of the many suggestions in this thread would make ganking a bit more difficult, such that gankers actually had to work the 'gf' they seem to think they deserve. Eve would be better for it.
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1358
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 17:08:01 -
[164] - Quote
Desk Averti wrote:Thats a lot of opinions....
Mine is that high sec gankers currently have it too easy.
There is no effective downside to their activity: losing a cheap ship is no great pain, and no pain at all if reimbursed, as practised by CODE; and low sec status is no great penalty if one has an alt for other activities.
The high sec ganker can currently sit in a high sec station and be brought out to kill a target scouted out by a high sec status alt, then left to be concorded. Its all too easy, and annoyingly far many eve players find this amusing.
Most things in Eve are difficult and its players mostly like it this way. Some of the many suggestions in this thread would make ganking a bit more difficult, such that gankers actually had to work the 'gf' they seem to think they deserve. Eve would be better for it.
It takes far less people to prevent a gank then to commit a gank. Just saying. Also it takes equally cheap ships. Cheaper even. I'm unsure why the ag community struggle so much
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1233
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 17:09:19 -
[165] - Quote
Desk Averti wrote:Thats a lot of opinions....
Mine is that high sec gankers currently have it too easy.
There is no effective downside to their activity: losing a cheap ship is no great pain, and no pain at all if reimbursed, as practised by CODE; and low sec status is no great penalty if one has an alt for other activities.
The high sec ganker can currently sit in a high sec station and be brought out to kill a target scouted out by a high sec status alt, then left to be concorded. Its all too easy, and annoyingly far many eve players find this amusing.
Most things in Eve are difficult and its players mostly like it this way. Some of the many suggestions in this thread would make ganking a bit more difficult, such that gankers actually had to work the 'gf' they seem to think they deserve. Eve would be better for it.
I'll agree that it's easy. It's just math. Concord response time, assumed tank (from ship scan) then figure the dps needed based on the time and tank.
Execution does take a bit of work. We use it for team building. It's a nice day trip, guys get to feel good about being bad. There are quite a few benefits for us. We only do it for one afternoon once in a great while. It's a nice change of pace.
If you're just rolling around in thrashers or cats wonking noobs in barges, then you can take out the math, the scanning and the teamwork. It's just lowskill meh gameplay. I don't care how much role play you spin it with.
I don't recommend harsher punnishment for gankers, I would recommend ccp put a new concord ship in each HS belt. The asteroid sentinel. Make it a quick locking cruiser that can easily handle up to 2 destroyers and prevent noob ganking right at the source - the asteroid belt. |
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1358
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 17:14:00 -
[166] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: I don't recommend harsher punnishment for gankers, I would recommend ccp put a new concord ship in each HS belt. The asteroid sentinel. Make it a quick locking cruiser that can easily handle up to 2 destroyers and prevent noob ganking right at the source - the asteroid belt.
I don't reccomend harsher penalties but I would recommend harsher penalties
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
|
Daerrol
Krieger Industries Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
191
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 17:14:04 -
[167] - Quote
can we stop the "Highsec is less safe than Null" bullcrap? Please? Just because Jita-Perimeter gate is more dangerous to badly fit haulers than backwater Venal does not make this true. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1233
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 17:19:28 -
[168] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: I don't recommend harsher punnishment for gankers, I would recommend ccp put a new concord ship in each HS belt. The asteroid sentinel. Make it a quick locking cruiser that can easily handle up to 2 destroyers and prevent noob ganking right at the source - the asteroid belt.
I don't reccomend harsher penalties but I would recommend harsher penalties
Your point is valid. My point is make it harsher for noob wonkin barge belt bonkers but leave it alone for folks like me who gank expensive mission cream puffs. It will get to the root of this ganking problem and leave the glorious part alone. |
Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
577
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 17:37:38 -
[169] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: I don't recommend harsher punnishment for gankers, I would recommend ccp put a new concord ship in each HS belt. The asteroid sentinel. Make it a quick locking cruiser that can easily handle up to 2 destroyers and prevent noob ganking right at the source - the asteroid belt.
I don't reccomend harsher penalties but I would recommend harsher penalties Your point is valid. My point is make it harsher for noob wonkin barge belt bonkers but leave it alone for folks like me who gank expensive mission cream puffs. It will get to the root of this ganking problem and leave the glorious part alone.
This assumes ganking is a problem, which CCP has said is not. So, there is no "problem" to solve.
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1236
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 18:25:53 -
[170] - Quote
Freya Sertan wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: I don't recommend harsher punnishment for gankers, I would recommend ccp put a new concord ship in each HS belt. The asteroid sentinel. Make it a quick locking cruiser that can easily handle up to 2 destroyers and prevent noob ganking right at the source - the asteroid belt.
I don't reccomend harsher penalties but I would recommend harsher penalties Your point is valid. My point is make it harsher for noob wonkin barge belt bonkers but leave it alone for folks like me who gank expensive mission cream puffs. It will get to the root of this ganking problem and leave the glorious part alone. This assumes ganking is a problem, which CCP has said is not. So, there is no "problem" to solve.
'CCP has said is not' ASSUMES CCP is always correct. Are you saying CCP is always correct, or are they correct as long as they agree with your point of view?
It's interesting that the folks who claim CCP was is and was wrong for nerfing HS one minute are standing on CCPs unerring claims the next.
Here, I'll just out w/ it. I think it would be super eve funny if CCP fooked with CODE. where CODE. had zero recourse. They would have to feel like the poor miner saps they wonk on day in and day. It would be even more super eve funny if CCP contrived some 'saviour of (fill in blank in creative roleplaying way)' and used that to justify taking a dump on CODE. operations.
It would just be funny. It would also be interesting to see if CODE. would then HTFU and keep going or just dissolve into the history books. I know where I would place my bets. |
|
Mag's
the united
19859
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 18:35:04 -
[171] - Quote
Tears. Not interested per se. But if you're so angry and upset and to give them, then why is this my problem? If your attitude is poor and you start vile name calling, sexual or racial slurs, then damn right I'll laugh at you. The funny thing is, there are often times when the victim is pretty cool about it. I have given ISK along with advice in the past, when having those chats.
Gankers are bullies. Ridiculous statement to make and you really need to grow up.
Ganking is too easy. Being proficient at something, doesn't mean it's too easy. But many will never accept this and will ask: "Just one more nerf and it will be balance." Trouble is, most will never stop asking it.
Tools currently available. There are plenty of tools currently available, to counter gankers. But these may require a little effort and a few friends. You'll find these ideas given freely in many threads like these, by those supposed evil gankers.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24350
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 19:23:41 -
[172] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Tools currently available. There are plenty of tools currently available, to counter gankers. But these may require a little effort and a few friends. You'll find these ideas given freely in many threads like these, by those supposed evil gankers. Obligatory "but my yield/cargo space", "I should be able to..", "why should I?" comments
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
419
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 21:47:02 -
[173] - Quote
Wait hold on, so how does this work, the OP comes by drops a deuce of a thread, (only thread or post made it appears) and vanishes leaving us with this abortion of a topic? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13742
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 21:48:01 -
[174] - Quote
Desk Averti wrote: Mine is that high sec gankers currently have it too easy.
The difficulty of our actions is directly proportional to the amount of effort that carebears put in to play the game.
Afk and autopilot is zero effort, so quite naturally it's relatively easy to kill them.
In a related note, our reward is also directly proportional to the greed of carebears.
Their problems stem from their (in)actions, not ours. Nothing should be nerfed just because you're bad at the game.
Quote: Most things in Eve are difficult and its players mostly like it this way.
Most things in EVE are only difficult as a result of player actions. Without other people, EVE would be very easy indeed. That goes double for highsec.
What you want is for our game to be made harder(when we alone have a playstyle that has mechanical consequences), and yours immensely easier. Without ganking, there is no risk to NPC corps whatsoever.
Highsec is not supposed to be safe. Deal with it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Renegade Heart
Carebear Miners R Us
504
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 22:13:53 -
[175] - Quote
Baaldor wrote:Wait hold on, so how does this work, the OP comes by drops a deuce of a thread, (only thread or post made it appears) and vanishes leaving us with this abortion of a topic?
I think OP is some kind of master bread roll baker. |
Capt Starfox
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
882
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 23:02:57 -
[176] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
So you don't believe in watching how the enemy operates before jumping in, and in any case kills are only denoting that you shot something, yesterday I saved a freighter from Globby and I was FC'ing the fleet that saved it, did not get a kill then either....
You've already jumped in.
I am more of the player who does indeed 'jumps in'; to me it's just more fun that way. Yes, I die a lot, but it's fun deaths.
Dracvlad wrote: Miners have the ability to jump into a Skiff that can be tanked so well that they will not be bothered unless they are someone that the gankers really want to kill.
Definitely! They also have a few other strategies that can help as well, most don't bother with it though.
Dracvlad wrote: I played a PBM game called the Hunting in the 80's, was a brutal game and there is a tragedy around it, you know nothing ...
Before my time, but sounds like an interesting game. What was it about?
Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
|
John E Normus
The Conference Elite CODE.
612
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 23:57:26 -
[177] - Quote
Starfox, do you even gank anymore?
Between Ignorance and Wisdom
|
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
New Order Logistics CODE.
248
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 00:27:41 -
[178] - Quote
Today I talked to a miner who complained to me that CODE. ganks "the little guy" in Covetors, Retrievers, and Hulks, but barely bothers rich Skiff-piloting multiboxers, who invade Caldari ice belts in locust swarms.
Ganking is too easy, but we don't seem to be ganking miners well enough. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
902
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 02:14:58 -
[179] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: I don't recommend harsher punnishment for gankers, I would recommend ccp put a new concord ship in each HS belt. The asteroid sentinel. Make it a quick locking cruiser that can easily handle up to 2 destroyers and prevent noob ganking right at the source - the asteroid belt.
I don't reccomend harsher penalties but I would recommend harsher penalties My point is make it harsher for noob wonkin barge belt bonkers They already did.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24353
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 02:38:45 -
[180] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: I don't recommend harsher punnishment for gankers, I would recommend ccp put a new concord ship in each HS belt. The asteroid sentinel. Make it a quick locking cruiser that can easily handle up to 2 destroyers and prevent noob ganking right at the source - the asteroid belt.
I don't reccomend harsher penalties but I would recommend harsher penalties My point is make it harsher for noob wonkin barge belt bonkers They already did. That requires thinking and doing something for oneself; some will accept nothing less than CCP wiping their arses for them.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 05:59:07 -
[181] - Quote
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:Today I talked to a miner who complained to me that CODE. ganks "the little guy" in Covetors, Retrievers, and Hulks, but barely bothers rich Skiff-piloting multiboxers, who invade Caldari ice belts in locust swarms.
Ganking is too easy, but we don't seem to be ganking miners well enough.
Well that is what you do in Osmon, you have one very active guy with two gank toons, and he knoews very well what he can take out and what he cannot. So most of the time he kills Coverters, Retrievers, Hulks and badly tanked Mackinaws with the odd industrial, Venture and mission runner thrown in. The thing is that Procurers and Skiffs when tanked need more DPS and therefore more of you to do it, and as you lot are concentrating on Freighter ganks then its only the easier mining ships that are getting dunked. I hope you told him to get in a Procurer and train for a Skiff, because that is what I would have told him and I hope you said that you do not have the manpower to step it up...
I also noticed that you tend to go after Charons first then Fenrirs and that is due to their lessor tanks, again this is because they are easier to kill and need less numbers, people are now putting resistance plates on the Obelisk and Providence which make them easier to save and more cost;ly.
In terms of the concept too easy, its true that you guys have been very organised and very good at it, however more and more people are ganking which is creating an inbalance in the game. Many people on our side feel that the penalties applied to the gankers are no deterrence at all, this is not so much a question of easy, but more to do with a balance that makes people think about whether to do this or not, this is why many of us suggest a slight adjustment to the penalties in hisec. Like many I am not against ganking as such, but I feel that the deterrence provided by the Empires and CONCORD are not enough to create the right balance in game.
Kaarous and people like him will now scream in rage and post banal rubbish in response, but the question is always about game balance. CCP are bad with this aspect, as I pointed out previously in many threads before the mining ships were buffed the best tank mining ship was the Hulk and that could be taken out by a single Catalyst and the pilot podded in a 0.8 system. Now people have the choice of using mining ships that can tank instead of all of them having the tank of a wet paper bag, I actually mine every so often because it enables me to be in a ship that is harder to kill.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Capt Starfox
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
884
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 06:17:53 -
[182] - Quote
Grats on the 25b JF I hate you and I'm going to kill you (in-game of course)
Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1363
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 06:23:35 -
[183] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:Today I talked to a miner who complained to me that CODE. ganks "the little guy" in Covetors, Retrievers, and Hulks, but barely bothers rich Skiff-piloting multiboxers, who invade Caldari ice belts in locust swarms.
Ganking is too easy, but we don't seem to be ganking miners well enough. Well that is what you do in Osmon, you have one very active guy with two gank toons, and he knoews very well what he can take out and what he cannot. So most of the time he kills Coverters, Retrievers, Hulks and badly tanked Mackinaws with the odd industrial, Venture and mission runner thrown in. The thing is that Procurers and Skiffs when tanked need more DPS and therefore more of you to do it, and as you lot are concentrating on Freighter ganks then its only the easier mining ships that are getting dunked. I hope you told him to get in a Procurer and train for a Skiff, because that is what I would have told him and I hope you said that you do not have the manpower to step it up... I also noticed that you tend to go after Charons first then Fenrirs and that is due to their lessor tanks, again this is because they are easier to kill and need less numbers, people are now putting resistance plates on the Obelisk and Providence which make them easier to save and more cost;ly. In terms of the concept too easy, its true that you guys have been very organised and very good at it, however more and more people are ganking which is creating an inbalance in the game. Many people on our side feel that the penalties applied to the gankers are no deterrence at all, this is not so much a question of easy, but more to do with a balance that makes people think about whether to do this or not, this is why many of us suggest a slight adjustment to the penalties in hisec. Like many I am not against ganking as such, but I feel that the deterrence provided by the Empires and CONCORD are not enough to create the right balance in game. Kaarous and people like him will now scream in rage and post banal rubbish in response, but the question is always about game balance. CCP are bad with this aspect, as I pointed out previously in many threads before the mining ships were buffed the best tank mining ship was the Hulk and that could be taken out by a single Catalyst and the pilot podded in a 0.8 system. Now people have the choice of using mining ships that can tank instead of all of them having the tank of a wet paper bag, I actually mine every so often because it enables me to be in a ship that is harder to kill. Which side am I considered to be on since it appears there are only 2?
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1365
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 06:42:19 -
[184] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: In terms of the concept too easy, its true that you guys have been very organised and very good at it, however more and more people are ganking which is creating an inbalance in the game. Many people on our side feel that the penalties applied to the gankers are no deterrence at all, this is not so much a question of easy, but more to do with a balance that makes people think about whether to do this or not, this is why many of us suggest a slight adjustment to the penalties in hisec. Like many I am not against ganking as such, but I feel that the deterrence provided by the Empires and CONCORD are not enough to create the right balance in game.
This is not NPC content where you can balance it by adjusting the loot table. This is player content that gets balanced by the game mechanics and this is what CCP is doing for over 12 years. They continuously nerfed ganking and the result is a more secure Highsec which in turn leads to fatter Freighters because people feel safe.
So if you think it is too rewarding to gank Freighters, wait until Highsec gets even safer. Go two years back and tell someone that carebears autopilot Freighters with 12B ISK on a daily basis and no one will believe you.
There will always be someone who steps up the game if you nerf ganking even more because at some point the Freighters will get so fat it will pay for the losses. But the more you nerf the more people will be required and you will have whole alliances centred around this fountain of wealth which is the careless carebear (this is already happening as you may have noticed).
The "balance" is where do you want to have that fat freighter ISK wise. Is 12bil ok or should it be more? Maybe you are happy if we kill only 100bil ISK Freighters? Or should we go back to 2bil ISK Freighters again and enable the whole Freighter ganking profession for smaller groups in the process.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1365
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 06:50:01 -
[185] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: Here, I'll just out w/ it. I think it would be super eve funny if CCP fooked with CODE. where CODE. had zero recourse. They would have to feel like the poor miner saps they wonk on day in and day. It would be even more super eve funny if CCP contrived some 'saviour of (fill in blank in creative roleplaying way)' and used that to justify taking a dump on CODE. operations.
It would just be funny. It would also be interesting to see if CODE. would then HTFU and keep going or just dissolve into the history books. I know where I would place my bets.
So what you say is we are so super eve elite that all powerful CCP which is not an in-game entity but the creator of the game itself, has to step in to stop us, because you carebears are to bad at the game to do something about it with the game tools available?
I would say that probably the MMO equivalent of winning the game (for us obviously), since you are completely dominated and can only hope for divine intervention at that point.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1363
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 07:21:52 -
[186] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: Here, I'll just out w/ it. I think it would be super eve funny if CCP fooked with CODE. where CODE. had zero recourse. They would have to feel like the poor miner saps they wonk on day in and day. It would be even more super eve funny if CCP contrived some 'saviour of (fill in blank in creative roleplaying way)' and used that to justify taking a dump on CODE. operations.
It would just be funny. It would also be interesting to see if CODE. would then HTFU and keep going or just dissolve into the history books. I know where I would place my bets.
So what you say is we are so super eve elite that all powerful CCP which is not an in-game entity but the creator of the game itself, has to step in to stop us, because you carebears are to bad at the game to do something about it with the game tools available? I would say that probably the MMO equivalent of winning the game (for us obviously), since you are completely dominated and can only hope for divine intervention at that point. Haven't I seen you post on more then one occasion how easy it is to counter you though and how to do it??? Surely nobody can be that bad they don't know how to counter you if they set their minds to it.
Noragen Neirfallas, Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment and recent Freighter Gank Victim (of my own stupidity)
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 10:30:18 -
[187] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dracvlad wrote: In terms of the concept too easy, its true that you guys have been very organised and very good at it, however more and more people are ganking which is creating an inbalance in the game. Many people on our side feel that the penalties applied to the gankers are no deterrence at all, this is not so much a question of easy, but more to do with a balance that makes people think about whether to do this or not, this is why many of us suggest a slight adjustment to the penalties in hisec. Like many I am not against ganking as such, but I feel that the deterrence provided by the Empires and CONCORD are not enough to create the right balance in game.
This is not NPC content where you can balance it by adjusting the loot table. This is player content that gets balanced by the game mechanics and this is what CCP is doing for over 12 years. They continuously nerfed ganking and the result is a more secure Highsec which in turn leads to fatter Freighters because people feel safe. So if you think it is too rewarding to gank Freighters, wait until Highsec gets even safer. Go two years back and tell someone that carebears autopilot Freighters with 12B ISK on a daily basis and no one will believe you. There will always be someone who steps up the game if you nerf ganking even more because at some point the Freighters will get so fat it will pay for the losses. But the more you nerf the more people will be required and you will have whole alliances centred around this fountain of wealth which is the careless carebear (this is already happening as you may have noticed). The "balance" is where do you want to have that fat freighter ISK wise. Is 12bil ok or should it be more? Maybe you are happy if we kill only 100bil ISK Freighters? Or should we go back to 2bil ISK Freighters again and enable the whole Freighter ganking profession for smaller groups in the process.
My comments are aimed more at the penalties which are applied as part of the CONCORD reaction to ganking, I think they need to be adjusted so add back a bit more deterrence but without making it too difficult, the issue is that CCP tend to over compensate..
In truth I think that freighters are a bit too easy, you quite often kill those which are carrying nothing, but then again you guys have got very organised to kill them which of course makes it look easy, credit to you chaps there for your gameplay, in effect I am not so focussed on the value of the freighter, 2bn as a cross over point seems reasonable to me, but stil the tank on a Charon is rather naff.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1130
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 10:34:52 -
[188] - Quote
can we have penalties for people who only do pve, more i think about the pve fatigue thread the more i think its actually a good idea, nerf all the things that people make stacks of isk doing
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 11:09:10 -
[189] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:can we have penalties for people who only do pve, more i think about the pve fatigue thread the more i think its actually a good idea, nerf all the things that people make stacks of isk doing
You say that, but recently I noticed that they seem to have adjusted the missions to give more faction missions, and this means that I cannot grind as much as I would like. So your request seems to have already been implemented, thankfully there is in my mission hub a prolific CODE agent so I can go hunt him instead of doing the PvE which is what you wanted.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Bastion Arzi
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
221
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 11:33:31 -
[190] - Quote
tl:dr
but the op wont illicit a nice repsonse from this. and i hope he/she did not post with their main.
i will read the rest of the thread now but i bet my prediction holds true |
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Bastion Arzi
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
221
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 11:43:32 -
[191] - Quote
read some,
op would u like to hire some protection? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13745
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 13:57:56 -
[192] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:can we have penalties for people who only do pve, more i think about the pve fatigue thread the more i think its actually a good idea, nerf all the things that people make stacks of isk doing
Sounds good to me. They're all for suggesting adding mechanical penalties to other people's professions(not to mention the only profession that has any to begin with anymore), so surely they'd be okay with having that argument pointed at them, right?
I mean, unless they're all colossal hypocrites, anyway.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1132
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 14:07:38 -
[193] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lan Wang wrote:can we have penalties for people who only do pve, more i think about the pve fatigue thread the more i think its actually a good idea, nerf all the things that people make stacks of isk doing Sounds good to me. They're all for suggesting adding mechanical penalties to other people's professions(not to mention the only profession that has any to begin with anymore), so surely they'd be okay with having that argument pointed at them, right? I mean, unless they're all colossal hypocrites, anyway.
well i use to support the carebears and defend them because i use to think shooting defenceless ships was bad but i have totally changed my opinion, mostly down to the numerous threads daily about how baddies keep shooting them and this, that and the next thing should be nerfed so they can play afk more, and solo carebears are really rude.
on the other hand i never really see a post from pirates posting threads about the mechanics which hinder there own profession. so i think nerfing pve would only be fair
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6412
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Posted - 2015.07.21 14:48:47 -
[194] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:on the other hand i never really see a post from pirates posting threads about the mechanics which hinder there own profession. so i think nerfing pve would only be fair So you missed the threads asking for concord to be removed or NPC corp players to be punished or booted after X months?
Even if this were the case, perhaps that's because a lot of the PvE mechanics are dull and have been for years, while piracy is pretty easy and there's far less to complain about. I rarely see people complaining about incursion income being terrible, that doesn't mean that other, worse income sources should be nerfed, does it?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1133
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:10:59 -
[195] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Lan Wang wrote:on the other hand i never really see a post from pirates posting threads about the mechanics which hinder there own profession. so i think nerfing pve would only be fair So you missed the threads asking for concord to be removed or NPC corp players to be punished or booted after X months? Even if this were the case, perhaps that's because a lot of the PvE mechanics are dull and have been for years, while piracy is pretty easy and there's far less to complain about. I rarely see people complaining about incursion income being terrible, that doesn't mean that other, worse income sources should be nerfed, does it?
incursions should create conflict by allowing sansha loyalists to engage incursion runner within incursion systems, simple really, i fixed incursions. thx, too much money and zero risk with incursions
but what actually gets implemented which benefit conflict within highsec or lowsec? everything is for more safety to the carebear, i dont think the activity itself should be nerfed more like the player...imagine players being nerfed so people had to switch from doing different things if they wanted to do pve because they exhausted missions, so they have to do mining or incursions, diversity instead of doing the same thing all day everyday and being greedy by gobbling up all the resources so other people cant get any.
its not really a fix and blah blah blah yes people will log off or have alts etc etc but they do that anyway.
and yes i missed the thread asking for concord to be removed as im busy replying to all these anti-gank threads
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
190
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:25:50 -
[196] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
My comments are aimed more at the penalties which are applied as part of the CONCORD reaction to ganking, I think they need to be adjusted so add back a bit more deterrence but without making it too difficult, the issue is that CCP tend to over compensate..
In truth I think that freighters are a bit too easy, you quite often kill those which are carrying nothing, but then again you guys have got very organised to kill them which of course makes it look easy, credit to you chaps there for your gameplay, in effect I am not so focussed on the value of the freighter, 2bn as a cross over point seems reasonable to me, but stil the tank on a Charon is rather naff.
Most gankers are -10s or close to it, so bigger standings hits are meaningless. CONCORD blows everyone up...seems like sufficient penalty. Increased response times will make carebears even more reckless, running more triple cargo expanded freighters with even billions more worth of cargo, while gankers will just bring a couple more ships, and carebears will cry for "just one more nerf".
Freighters are as easy as idiots that autopilot them full of loot make them. Fleet members get bored already waiting out the 15 min timer, and from what I've seen, empty freighters are killed if they're bored, and a lack of better targets because smarter freighter pilots scouted ahead and saw a bunch of gankers in system, and took a different route. How much tank should a giant cargo container with engines have, especially when so many idiots intentionally lower their tank?
Dracvlad wrote:You say that, but recently I noticed that they seem to have adjusted the missions to give more faction missions, and this means that I cannot grind as much as I would like. So your request seems to have already been implemented, thankfully there is in my mission hub a prolific CODE agent so I can go hunt him instead of doing the PvE which is what you wanted.
You must have some really bad luck. I get burner missions all the time, but it's rare that I get a faction mission more than once every 4 hours, and when I do, it's not hard to go to a different agent. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:30:29 -
[197] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Lan Wang wrote:on the other hand i never really see a post from pirates posting threads about the mechanics which hinder there own profession. so i think nerfing pve would only be fair So you missed the threads asking for concord to be removed or NPC corp players to be punished or booted after X months? Even if this were the case, perhaps that's because a lot of the PvE mechanics are dull and have been for years, while piracy is pretty easy and there's far less to complain about. I rarely see people complaining about incursion income being terrible, that doesn't mean that other, worse income sources should be nerfed, does it? incursions should create conflict by allowing sansha loyalists to engage incursion runner within incursion systems, simple really, i fixed incursions. thx, too much money and zero risk with incursions but what actually gets implemented which benefit conflict within highsec or lowsec? everything is for more safety to the carebear, i dont think the activity itself should be nerfed more like the player...imagine players being nerfed so people had to switch from doing different things if they wanted to do pve because they exhausted missions, so they have to do mining or incursions, diversity instead of doing the same thing all day everyday and being greedy by gobbling up all the resources so other people cant get any. its not really a fix and blah blah blah yes people will log off or have alts etc etc but they do that anyway. and yes i missed the thread asking for concord to be removed as im busy replying to all these anti-gank threads
Excuse me, but I ended up with another mission against the Amarr faction and I had that on my other toon and this is fairly recent behaviour, before I used to get one decline it and would not get one for a while, but bang on both toons another Amarr mission, thats been adjusted from what it used to be like, just make Eve more of a pain for people, oh well. So I had four hours to kill so I went and got some kills against a very competent ganker, of course CONCORD is on 66% of them, but I did do most of the damage on them, honest...
Now lets list them out, removal of anoms that needed to be scanned out, so even a loser can warp straight in on you, differential warp speeds so that ships could now get on top of you and hold you down, D-scan immunity means D-scan is useless for a solo player, you need combat probes, oh what joy, its been made easier and easier to catch people, why the hell do you think someone like me who was in NPC null ratting in PvP ships has given up and gone to hisec. Its not because they give candy in hisec...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6413
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:42:15 -
[198] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:but what actually gets implemented which benefit conflict within highsec or lowsec? everything is for more safety to the carebear You mean like how wardecs used to be limited, but now you can have hundreds of them? Or orca bays that used to drop nothing and now can be scanned and drop loot? Or new configurable destroyers? Or Mobile depots so you can refit to fit your situation? Warp changes so heavier ships take 3 billions years to arrive so you can get ahead of them after they've entered warp?
Lan Wang wrote:i dont think the activity itself should be nerfed more like the player...imagine players being nerfed so people had to switch from doing different things if they wanted to do pve because they exhausted missions, so they have to do mining or incursions, diversity instead of doing the same thing all day everyday and being greedy by gobbling up all the resources so other people cant get any. I could support that kind of thing, especially if it was based around groups so an individual could still choose to specialise but would need to work with others doing other activities a bit more closely. I really want to see individual PvE elements mixed up and varied though. I'd like to see missions where you have no idea what's going to happen in them, not just a step by step guide, and mining be more involved than "click rock, wait". But none of that has to involve being forced to be fodder for bored PvPers.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1365
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:57:24 -
[199] - Quote
I was watching this with my children and it describes my point of view on this topic
#UsingDisneyToSolveAllOurProblems
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1369
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 17:13:22 -
[200] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dracvlad wrote: In terms of the concept too easy, its true that you guys have been very organised and very good at it, however more and more people are ganking which is creating an inbalance in the game. Many people on our side feel that the penalties applied to the gankers are no deterrence at all, this is not so much a question of easy, but more to do with a balance that makes people think about whether to do this or not, this is why many of us suggest a slight adjustment to the penalties in hisec. Like many I am not against ganking as such, but I feel that the deterrence provided by the Empires and CONCORD are not enough to create the right balance in game.
This is not NPC content where you can balance it by adjusting the loot table. This is player content that gets balanced by the game mechanics and this is what CCP is doing for over 12 years. They continuously nerfed ganking and the result is a more secure Highsec which in turn leads to fatter Freighters because people feel safe. So if you think it is too rewarding to gank Freighters, wait until Highsec gets even safer. Go two years back and tell someone that carebears autopilot Freighters with 12B ISK on a daily basis and no one will believe you. There will always be someone who steps up the game if you nerf ganking even more because at some point the Freighters will get so fat it will pay for the losses. But the more you nerf the more people will be required and you will have whole alliances centred around this fountain of wealth which is the careless carebear (this is already happening as you may have noticed). The "balance" is where do you want to have that fat freighter ISK wise. Is 12bil ok or should it be more? Maybe you are happy if we kill only 100bil ISK Freighters? Or should we go back to 2bil ISK Freighters again and enable the whole Freighter ganking profession for smaller groups in the process. My comments are aimed more at the penalties which are applied as part of the CONCORD reaction to ganking, I think they need to be adjusted so add back a bit more deterrence but without making it too difficult, the issue is that CCP tend to over compensate.. In truth I think that freighters are a bit too easy, you quite often kill those which are carrying nothing, but then again you guys have got very organised to kill them which of course makes it look easy, credit to you chaps there for your gameplay, in effect I am not so focussed on the value of the freighter, 2bn as a cross over point seems reasonable to me, but stil the tank on a Charon is rather naff. I am not sure if you did not read my post or just did not understand what I wrote?
Increasing the safety will increase the amout of stuff they haul. I wrote in my previous post why I think this is the case. If you don't think my thoughts on this are valid please adress it and don't just generate another random gank nerf idea.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Requimaryon
88th Armored Division Corporation
9
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Posted - 2015.07.21 18:03:25 -
[201] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Desk Averti wrote: Mine is that high sec gankers currently have it too easy.
The difficulty of our actions is directly proportional to the amount of effort that carebears put in to play the game. Afk and autopilot is zero effort, so quite naturally it's relatively easy to kill them. In a related note, our reward is also directly proportional to the greed of carebears. Their problems stem from their (in)actions, not ours. Nothing should be nerfed just because you're bad at the game. Quote: Most things in Eve are difficult and its players mostly like it this way.
Most things in EVE are only difficult as a result of player actions. Without other people, EVE would be very easy indeed. That goes double for highsec. What you want is for our game to be made harder(when we alone have a playstyle that has mechanical consequences), and yours immensely easier. Without ganking, there is no risk to NPC corps whatsoever. Highsec is not supposed to be safe. Deal with it.
Ok it seems like you want EVE to be hard for everybody, you are arguing that people who wants to nerf hi-sec ganking wants tha game easier for them. What I don't get is, what is hard for the gankers?
The thing is, everybody can become a hi-sec miner ganker, post killmails on local and spew b***s*** rp lines. They don't have to risk anything. Yes RISK, that is the main theme of EVE. Gankers seem to think that they are actually prooving that hi-sec pilots are still risking their ships when they undock. Yea that is true, that is EVE. But what are gankers risking? Catas? Not even that.
A good gankee, in this thread's definition, is the one who can avoid the gank. It's not hat hard really. But when the gankee avoids the gank, did the ganker really lost? Because he lost nothing, he didn't have to risk anything in the first place. There is no bad day for gankers. There are just empty days where he happens to not find any afk mining poof.
I have nothing against hi-sec ganking. When it is done for real profit, it requires know how, coordination, teamwork and effort. Also it makes sense. I also have no big problem with what CODE doing simply because they don't matter. Their kills requires no skill whatsoever, so they won't be respected. Their work is not nearly profitable enough to earn viable income. Their actions has no consenquence becase there will always be carebears and afk miners. They don't matter.
But when some hi-sec ganker comes along and talks about game being "too easy" for carebears, that is so ignorant it is funny. In their ignorance the miner killers doesn't realise that actually it is they who chose to play EVE in easy mode.
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Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
421
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 18:27:52 -
[202] - Quote
Requimaryon wrote:
Ok it seems like you want EVE to be hard for everybody, you are arguing that people who wants to nerf hi-sec ganking wants tha game easier for them. What I don't get is, what is hard for the gankers?
The thing is, everybody can become a hi-sec miner ganker, post killmails on local and spew b***s*** rp lines. They don't have to risk anything. Yes RISK, that is the main theme of EVE. Gankers seem to think that they are actually prooving that hi-sec pilots are still risking their ships when they undock. Yea that is true, that is EVE. But what are gankers risking? Catas? Not even that.
A good gankee, in this thread's definition, is the one who can avoid the gank. It's not hat hard really. But when the gankee avoids the gank, did the ganker really lost? Because he lost nothing, he didn't have to risk anything in the first place. There is no bad day for gankers. There are just empty days where he happens to not find any afk mining poof.
I have nothing against hi-sec ganking. When it is done for real profit, it requires know how, coordination, teamwork and effort. Also it makes sense. I also have no big problem with what CODE doing simply because they don't matter. Their kills requires no skill whatsoever, so they won't be respected. Their work is not nearly profitable enough to earn viable income. Their actions has no consenquence becase there will always be carebears and afk miners. They don't matter.
But when some hi-sec ganker comes along and talks about game being "too easy" for carebears, that is so ignorant it is funny. In their ignorance the miner killers doesn't realise that actually it is they who chose to play EVE in easy mode.
Ok I kind see where you are going with it, not sure if this your main character or not, but how much experience have you had "Ganking"
Just curious as peeps around here love to make assumptions based on no real experience of their own except for some sort of emotional investment. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 19:08:27 -
[203] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dracvlad wrote: In terms of the concept too easy, its true that you guys have been very organised and very good at it, however more and more people are ganking which is creating an inbalance in the game. Many people on our side feel that the penalties applied to the gankers are no deterrence at all, this is not so much a question of easy, but more to do with a balance that makes people think about whether to do this or not, this is why many of us suggest a slight adjustment to the penalties in hisec. Like many I am not against ganking as such, but I feel that the deterrence provided by the Empires and CONCORD are not enough to create the right balance in game.
This is not NPC content where you can balance it by adjusting the loot table. This is player content that gets balanced by the game mechanics and this is what CCP is doing for over 12 years. They continuously nerfed ganking and the result is a more secure Highsec which in turn leads to fatter Freighters because people feel safe. So if you think it is too rewarding to gank Freighters, wait until Highsec gets even safer. Go two years back and tell someone that carebears autopilot Freighters with 12B ISK on a daily basis and no one will believe you. There will always be someone who steps up the game if you nerf ganking even more because at some point the Freighters will get so fat it will pay for the losses. But the more you nerf the more people will be required and you will have whole alliances centred around this fountain of wealth which is the careless carebear (this is already happening as you may have noticed). The "balance" is where do you want to have that fat freighter ISK wise. Is 12bil ok or should it be more? Maybe you are happy if we kill only 100bil ISK Freighters? Or should we go back to 2bil ISK Freighters again and enable the whole Freighter ganking profession for smaller groups in the process. My comments are aimed more at the penalties which are applied as part of the CONCORD reaction to ganking, I think they need to be adjusted so add back a bit more deterrence but without making it too difficult, the issue is that CCP tend to over compensate.. In truth I think that freighters are a bit too easy, you quite often kill those which are carrying nothing, but then again you guys have got very organised to kill them which of course makes it look easy, credit to you chaps there for your gameplay, in effect I am not so focussed on the value of the freighter, 2bn as a cross over point seems reasonable to me, but stil the tank on a Charon is rather naff. I am not sure if you did not read my post or just did not understand what I wrote? Increasing the safety will increase the amout of stuff they haul. I wrote in my previous post why I think this is the case. If you don't think my thoughts on this are valid please adress it and don't just generate another random gank nerf idea.
I don't think you understand what I am getting at, maybe a buff to the Charon in some way, but the thing is that I am not so bothered about the value of the cargo being the determining factor like you suggest, the changes I am thinking of is a buffing of the penalties so that CONCORD blow us anything the ganker is in for 15 minutes period, or have some docking penalties that are meaningful, what it would do is change things slightly. I certainly am not in favour of a typical CCP over the top nerf approach, did you see what they did to the drake... or more importantly to the heavy missiles.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Renegade Heart
Carebear Miners R Us
508
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 19:25:55 -
[204] - Quote
Requimaryon wrote:Their kills requires no skill whatsoever, so they won't be respected.
I still laugh at the idea of people playing computer games primarily for the respect of random people on the internet, rather than fun
I know in this modern era where gaming has become a professional sport that such attitudes will become more prevalent, but not everyone is such an elite gamer.
Some people just want to mess about in a virtual world. Did you ever play GTA for hours, causing chaos against the cops, and blowing up random things? To me, EvE is simply an advanced multiplayer version of this.
Each to their own! |
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
190
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 20:13:09 -
[205] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:I don't think you understand what I am getting at, maybe a buff to the Charon in some way, but the thing is that I am not so bothered about the value of the cargo being the determining factor like you suggest, the changes I am thinking of is a buffing of the penalties so that CONCORD blow us anything the ganker is in for 15 minutes period, or have some docking penalties that are meaningful, what it would do is change things slightly. I certainly am not in favour of a typical CCP over the top nerf approach, did you see what they did to the drake... or more importantly to the heavy missiles.
EDIT: I just want to say even though I am opposed to CODE I do respect their sheer organisation and the skill of many of their players, they are skilled and very good at what they do.
Someone mentioned this before, and I addressed it, but I guess you missed it...CONCORD already does blow up anything a GCC player is in for the whole 15 min GCC timer, whether they engage in new criminal activities in that time or not. |
GordonO
Caldari Provisions
140
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:17:42 -
[206] - Quote
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:I am anything but a bully to the miners I gank. I even give them ISK, skillbooks and a path to follow to Code Compliance.
LMAO.. you are all bully's(extortionists).. if you were in if for the pvp you would be in low sec, null or wh's... Ganking/bumping miners and wardecking corps while sitting on jita undock with neutral boosting and repping alts is not pvp...
... What next ??
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Karl Jerr
Herzack Unit
102
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:21:56 -
[207] - Quote
GordonO wrote:Bellatrix Invicta wrote:I am anything but a bully to the miners I gank. I even give them ISK, skillbooks and a path to follow to Code Compliance. LMAO.. you are all bully's(extortionists).. if you were in if for the pvp you would be in low sec, null or wh's... Ganking/bumping miners and wardecking corps while sitting on jita undock with neutral boosting and repping alts is not pvp... Well they don't come into the target's house to bully... exploding a verticed spaceship isn't bullying.
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Karl Jerr
Herzack Unit
102
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:22:42 -
[208] - Quote
GordonO wrote:Bellatrix Invicta wrote:I am anything but a bully to the miners I gank. I even give them ISK, skillbooks and a path to follow to Code Compliance. LMAO.. you are all bully's(extortionists).. if you were in if for the pvp you would be in low sec, null or wh's... Ganking/bumping miners and wardecking corps while sitting on jita undock with neutral boosting and repping alts is not pvp...
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13745
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:41:44 -
[209] - Quote
Requimaryon wrote: Ok it seems like you want EVE to be hard for everybody
More like I'd actually like to see more player interaction in highsec, rather than people ******* around with NPCs.
Quote:What I don't get is, what is hard for the gankers?
That's because you're still not paying attention.
As with any player vs player interaction, our difficulty level is directly proportional to the effort put in by the opposition.
Frequently, that effort amount is zero.
As for what's hard about being a ganker, neg ten is not a joke. It pretty much restricts you to flying a small handful of ships, all of which will be destroyed eventually. That's a hefty penalty, whether you think so or not, we simply choose to accept it and deal with it.
Quote:But what are gankers risking? Catas? Not even that.
Risk is the potential for loss. Ganker's potential for loss is 100%, ergo their risk level is higher than anyone else's. But that's if you really want to get down to semantics, which is not the point here.
Quote: I have nothing against hi-sec ganking.
Forgive me if I don't believe you, certainly not after you've spent so much of this post ranting against ganking.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Bellatrix Invicta
New Order Logistics CODE.
130
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:56:15 -
[210] - Quote
GordonO wrote:Bellatrix Invicta wrote:I am anything but a bully to the miners I gank. I even give them ISK, skillbooks and a path to follow to Code Compliance. LMAO.. you are all bully's(extortionists).. if you were in if for the pvp you would be in low sec, null or wh's... Ganking/bumping miners and wardecking corps while sitting on jita undock with neutral boosting and repping alts is not pvp...
You have an extraordinarily narrow and wrong view of what "bullying" is. We are not extortionists either. Know how many miners refuse to buy a Permit? A lot of them. We don't do this for the money so extortion is a really stupid thing to accuse us of.
PvP happens everywhere in EvE. EVERYWHERE. It doesn't have to just happen in low or null. Period. PvP is player versus player. Get over your idea of theme-park PvP and get used to open world, sandbox PvP.
And really, if you think CODE. sits on undocks blapping fools in Jita, you don't know jack ****.
If you think you've won, think again.
The CODE always wins.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6422
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:58:57 -
[211] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Requimaryon wrote:Ok it seems like you want EVE to be hard for everybody More like I'd actually like to see more player interaction in highsec, rather than people ******* around with NPCs. So you want nullsec... Why are people so averse to the idea that highsec might just not be for them? What you want exists, but it's not what highsec is.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:What I don't get is, what is hard for the gankers? That's because you're still not paying attention. As with any player vs player interaction, our difficulty level is directly proportional to the effort put in by the opposition. Frequently, that effort amount is zero. As for what's hard about being a ganker, neg ten is not a joke. It pretty much restricts you to flying a small handful of ships, all of which will be destroyed eventually. That's a hefty penalty, whether you think so or not, we simply choose to accept it and deal with it. lol, because you purposely pick people who will give the least resistance because you're a risk averse carebear.
Neg ten is easy considering you are intending to gank. Once you're done you can just push it back up. Unless of course you use and alt for ganks which it looks like you do, as do most others. And lol, yeah, you'll lose ships that are specifically picked out to be disposable. Such a big loss!
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13745
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 22:05:35 -
[212] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:So you want nullsec
Nope, and obvious strawman arguments are obvious.
Quote:lol, because you purposely pick people who will give the least resistance because you're a risk averse carebear.
That, or I kill the people who are autopiloting because they are basically just handing it to me.
If you dangle a steak in front of the lion, don't be surprised when he eats it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6422
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 22:20:30 -
[213] - Quote
Kitten != lion
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
577
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 22:36:10 -
[214] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Kitten != lion
Kitten or lion, the result is podgoo. Results matter, not whining.
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6422
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 22:43:55 -
[215] - Quote
Freya Sertan wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Kitten != lion Kitten or lion, the result is podgoo. Results matter, not whining. That's not all that matters though, is it? Or are you suggesting someone taking down an afk industrial ship is the same level of competence as someone taking down a decently fitted PvP ship piloted by an expert PvPer?
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Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
577
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 23:02:35 -
[216] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Freya Sertan wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Kitten != lion Kitten or lion, the result is podgoo. Results matter, not whining. That's not all that matters though, is it? Or are you suggesting someone taking down an afk industrial ship is the same level of competence as someone taking down a decently fitted PvP ship piloted by an expert PvPer?
Did I say it was? Quit putting words in people's posts and quit making up arguments where there are none.
PvP is PvP regardless of who or what was involved. I don't care if someone blapped an Ibis with a Paladin and the Paladin pilot was the oldest toon in EvE. So long as one participant enjoyed themselves, OP success.
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13745
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 02:01:28 -
[217] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Kitten != lion
The mouse can't tell the difference. It's still being eaten either way.
Lucas Kell wrote:Or are you suggesting someone taking down an afk industrial ship is the same level of competence as someone taking down a decently fitted PvP ship piloted by an expert PvPer?
Still with the strawman nonsense, you need to buy a new carebear playbook, yours is worn out.
I'm suggesting that knocking down an industrial ship is more competence than the indy player is showing. The better player won, and that's what upsets you the most.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1370
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 04:46:56 -
[218] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: I don't think you understand what I am getting at, maybe a buff to the Charon in some way, but the thing is that I am not so bothered about the value of the cargo being the determining factor like you suggest, the changes I am thinking of is a buffing of the penalties so that CONCORD blow us anything the ganker is in for 15 minutes period, or have some docking penalties that are meaningful, what it would do is change things slightly. I certainly am not in favour of a typical CCP over the top nerf approach, did you see what they did to the drake... or more importantly to the heavy missiles.
EDIT: I just want to say even though I am opposed to CODE I do respect their sheer organisation and the skill of many of their players, they are skilled and very good at what they do.
It is pretty obvious what you are getting at. You think one more nerf will fix ganking, just like all the carebears before. I just explained to you why this will never work and why it will create even fatter targets for us.
About a year ago they already buffed Freighters. Befor that it was not possible to fit modules on them. Not even a day went by after said buff to potential Freighter EHP one of the biggest tear threads emerged on the forums and the carebears asked for more buffs thinking again one more nerf will fix it. This happens all the time, and all you are doing is monopolizing this kind of stuff for big alliances while at the same time increasing the value of the targets because they feel safer.
Anyway, I feel like I am talking to a wall here, so I will probably just add you to the ignore list like Lukas and not waste any more time with your unreflected calls for that one more nerf.
Btw, wasn't that awoxing nerf going to fix Highsec life?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6424
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 07:18:34 -
[219] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I'm suggesting that knocking down an industrial ship is more competence than the indy player is showing. The better player won, and that's what upsets you the most. Whichever way you swing it, it's still you being a carebear, picking only the easy mode gameplay.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13749
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 08:19:57 -
[220] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I'm suggesting that knocking down an industrial ship is more competence than the indy player is showing. The better player won, and that's what upsets you the most. Whichever way you swing it, it's still you being a carebear, picking only the easy mode gameplay.
Remember kids, neg ten is "easy mode".
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1143
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 08:22:31 -
[221] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I'm suggesting that knocking down an industrial ship is more competence than the indy player is showing. The better player won, and that's what upsets you the most. Whichever way you swing it, it's still you being a carebear, picking only the easy mode gameplay. Remember kids, neg ten is "easy mode".
im not neg 10 but i still get chased in highsec, and trying to get a kill in highsec while being chased is not easy at all, so if anyone says its not skill then they are wrong and clearly dont understand the concept of being on a death timer and having to coordinate perfectly to be effective
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Lady Areola Fappington
2629
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 09:00:46 -
[222] - Quote
So, which side of the cognitive dissonance pendulum are we on today?
Ganking is such an immensely powerful activity it requires more nerfing (thereby proving how wildly effective groups like CODE are).
OR
Ganking is worthless scrub behaviour that has no impact on Eve at all (thereby establishing that ganking needs massive buffs to be on par with other Eve professions)
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6424
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 09:22:23 -
[223] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I'm suggesting that knocking down an industrial ship is more competence than the indy player is showing. The better player won, and that's what upsets you the most. Whichever way you swing it, it's still you being a carebear, picking only the easy mode gameplay. Remember kids, neg ten is "easy mode". lol, yes, having a neg ten alt in disposable ships shooting targets that stand no chance is in fact easy mode.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
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Lady Areola Fappington
2629
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 09:41:52 -
[224] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I'm suggesting that knocking down an industrial ship is more competence than the indy player is showing. The better player won, and that's what upsets you the most. Whichever way you swing it, it's still you being a carebear, picking only the easy mode gameplay. Remember kids, neg ten is "easy mode". lol, yes, having a neg ten alt in disposable ships shooting targets that stand no chance is in fact easy mode.
In that case, any use of alts in Eve is "EZ Mode".
Salvager alt after running lvl4's, EZ mode, you should be doing that on your main. Cyno alt for your carrier, EZ Mode, you should be getting a corpmate to light that for you Hauler alt for mining ops, EZ Mode even more, you should be hauling those loads back in your mining ship, or getting a buddy to haul for you.
Just remember kids, using alts to mitigate the effects of bad sec status is contemptuous and should be mocked. Using alts to mindlessly hoover up ISK in PVE activities is smart game play.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6424
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 10:06:01 -
[225] - Quote
In most cases, yes, that is easy mode, you have no argument from me there. I'm not claiming that a lot of PvE isn't easymode either. I'm not even claiming I don't do the same (I do, I have a gank alt that flies with miniluv). I just find it amusing that there's these people hiding in highsec shooting unarmed rookies using cheap disposable ships and they have the nerve to complain about "the carebears" as if what they are doing is any better. Using "but my alt is neg ten" is a terrible excuse for what is effectively carebear PvP.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13752
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 10:27:34 -
[226] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I'm suggesting that knocking down an industrial ship is more competence than the indy player is showing. The better player won, and that's what upsets you the most. Whichever way you swing it, it's still you being a carebear, picking only the easy mode gameplay. Remember kids, neg ten is "easy mode". lol, yes, having a neg ten alt in disposable ships shooting targets that stand no chance is in fact easy mode.
You must really hate mining then. I can't think of an easier mode.
Besides, if you want to tilt the windmills against alts existing, this is the wrong place to do it. Pick which angsty rant you're going with, and stick with it, don't flip/flop all over the place.
[edit: Hells bells, with the three month long bitchfit you pitched about ISBoxer finally being banned, one wonders how you have the gall to call anyone else's way of playing "easy mode"
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:00:36 -
[227] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Dracvlad wrote:I don't think you understand what I am getting at, maybe a buff to the Charon in some way, but the thing is that I am not so bothered about the value of the cargo being the determining factor like you suggest, the changes I am thinking of is a buffing of the penalties so that CONCORD blow us anything the ganker is in for 15 minutes period, or have some docking penalties that are meaningful, what it would do is change things slightly. I certainly am not in favour of a typical CCP over the top nerf approach, did you see what they did to the drake... or more importantly to the heavy missiles.
EDIT: I just want to say even though I am opposed to CODE I do respect their sheer organisation and the skill of many of their players, they are skilled and very good at what they do. Someone mentioned this before, and I addressed it, but I guess you missed it...CONCORD already does blow up anything a GCC player is in for the whole 15 min GCC timer, whether they engage in new criminal activities in that time or not. That's part of what allows hyperdunking to work lol.
Nope after the second ship you can jump into another ship and then can shoot again, thats how hyperdunking works, doh!
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1366
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:01:49 -
[228] - Quote
At the end of the day if players have a problem with a player activity they should do something about it. CCP shouldn't have to fix a problem that can be done by a player. NPC's are busy enough they don't need an increased workload.
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1366
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:02:58 -
[229] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Dracvlad wrote:I don't think you understand what I am getting at, maybe a buff to the Charon in some way, but the thing is that I am not so bothered about the value of the cargo being the determining factor like you suggest, the changes I am thinking of is a buffing of the penalties so that CONCORD blow us anything the ganker is in for 15 minutes period, or have some docking penalties that are meaningful, what it would do is change things slightly. I certainly am not in favour of a typical CCP over the top nerf approach, did you see what they did to the drake... or more importantly to the heavy missiles.
EDIT: I just want to say even though I am opposed to CODE I do respect their sheer organisation and the skill of many of their players, they are skilled and very good at what they do. Someone mentioned this before, and I addressed it, but I guess you missed it...CONCORD already does blow up anything a GCC player is in for the whole 15 min GCC timer, whether they engage in new criminal activities in that time or not. That's part of what allows hyperdunking to work lol. Nope after the second ship you can jump into another ship and then can shoot again, thats how hyperdunking works, doh! Concord will still shoot the ship even if it doesn't shoot again.
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
|
Lady Areola Fappington
2631
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:04:42 -
[230] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:In most cases, yes, that is easy mode, you have no argument from me there. I'm not claiming that a lot of PvE isn't easymode either. I'm not even claiming I don't do the same (I do, I have a gank alt that flies with miniluv). I just find it amusing that there's these people hiding in highsec shooting unarmed rookies using cheap disposable ships and they have the nerve to complain about "the carebears" as if what they are doing is any better. Using "but my alt is neg ten" is a terrible excuse for what is effectively carebear PvP.
I see what you're saying now, thanks.
The whole "X is more difficult than Y" arguments in Eve do tend to get a little silly. You need a different set of skills for ganking than you do for running PVE. Hauling takes different skills than mining. Sure they overlap in places, and you can learn multiple different "roles", but ultimately, I don't really see one playstyle as more or less difficult than another.
Yeah, blapping newbs is pretty easy (and kind of pointless IMHO). Flipside, trying to run an efficient freighter gank for profit setup can be quite hard to pull off. Making a blanket statement of "Ganking is easy lol only scrubs do it" is kind of silly (not that I'm accusing you of saying that).
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
|
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:07:52 -
[231] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dracvlad wrote: I don't think you understand what I am getting at, maybe a buff to the Charon in some way, but the thing is that I am not so bothered about the value of the cargo being the determining factor like you suggest, the changes I am thinking of is a buffing of the penalties so that CONCORD blow us anything the ganker is in for 15 minutes period, or have some docking penalties that are meaningful, what it would do is change things slightly. I certainly am not in favour of a typical CCP over the top nerf approach, did you see what they did to the drake... or more importantly to the heavy missiles.
EDIT: I just want to say even though I am opposed to CODE I do respect their sheer organisation and the skill of many of their players, they are skilled and very good at what they do.
It is pretty obvious what you are getting at. You think one more nerf will fix ganking, just like all the carebears before. I just explained to you why this will never work and why it will create even fatter targets for us. About a year ago they already buffed Freighters. Befor that it was not possible to fit modules on them. Not even a day went by after said buff to potential Freighter EHP one of the biggest tear threads emerged on the forums and the carebears asked for more buffs thinking again one more nerf will fix it. This happens all the time, and all you are doing is monopolizing this kind of stuff for big alliances while at the same time increasing the value of the targets because they feel safer. Anyway, I feel like I am talking to a wall here, so I will probably just add you to the ignore list like Lukas and not waste any more time with your unreflected calls for that one more nerf. Btw, wasn't that awoxing nerf going to fix Highsec life?
Block me then, my focus is on the CONCORD derived deterrence, not buffing of freighters and hence their adjustment for cargo value which you started talking about. The simple fact is that the current CONCORD deterrence is not sufficient and needs adjustment, the first is to CONCORD do police that 15 minute GCC. The second is no docking for 15 minutes if you are -10.
whining about people whining about buffing freighters is rather passe, just earlier I told a Charon pilot to train up a Providence or Obelisk and fit resistance plates to it and dump the Charon.
As for defining me a carebear, lol...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:09:50 -
[232] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Dracvlad wrote:I don't think you understand what I am getting at, maybe a buff to the Charon in some way, but the thing is that I am not so bothered about the value of the cargo being the determining factor like you suggest, the changes I am thinking of is a buffing of the penalties so that CONCORD blow us anything the ganker is in for 15 minutes period, or have some docking penalties that are meaningful, what it would do is change things slightly. I certainly am not in favour of a typical CCP over the top nerf approach, did you see what they did to the drake... or more importantly to the heavy missiles.
EDIT: I just want to say even though I am opposed to CODE I do respect their sheer organisation and the skill of many of their players, they are skilled and very good at what they do. Someone mentioned this before, and I addressed it, but I guess you missed it...CONCORD already does blow up anything a GCC player is in for the whole 15 min GCC timer, whether they engage in new criminal activities in that time or not. That's part of what allows hyperdunking to work lol. Nope after the second ship you can jump into another ship and then can shoot again, thats how hyperdunking works, doh! Concord will still shoot the ship even if it doesn't shoot again.
Well I see the players shoot something, get blown up, jump into a shuttle get blown up, then jump into a catalyst and then shoot something which gets them blown up and so on. Do I believe my lying eyes or the statements here?
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1366
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:17:29 -
[233] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Well I see the players shoot something, get blown up, jump into a shuttle get blown up, then jump into a catalyst and then shoot something which gets them blown up and so on. Do I believe my lying eyes or the statements here?
highlighted where your own sentence confirmed my point
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:19:44 -
[234] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Well I see the players shoot something, get blown up, jump into a shuttle get blown up, then jump into a catalyst and then shoot something which gets them blown up and so on. Do I believe my lying eyes or the statements here?
highlighted where your own sentence confirmed my point
I did say after the second ship loss, so you mis-read what I said.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13753
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:37:25 -
[235] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Well I see the players shoot something, get blown up, jump into a shuttle get blown up, then jump into a catalyst and then shoot something which gets them blown up and so on. Do I believe my lying eyes or the statements here?
highlighted where your own sentence confirmed my point I did say after the second ship loss, so you mis-read what I said.
No he didn't, you're just spouting nonsense. You suggested that Concord be "buffed" to shoot anything a criminal flag player flies for 15 minutes.
... but they already do that.
Once again, your ignorance is simply delightful.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:43:08 -
[236] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Well I see the players shoot something, get blown up, jump into a shuttle get blown up, then jump into a catalyst and then shoot something which gets them blown up and so on. Do I believe my lying eyes or the statements here?
highlighted where your own sentence confirmed my point I did say after the second ship loss, so you mis-read what I said. No he didn't, you're just spouting nonsense. You suggested that Concord be "buffed" to shoot anything a criminal flag player flies for 15 minutes. ... but they already do that. Once again, your ignorance is simply delightful.
As if I care what you think I said!
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Lady Areola Fappington
2633
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:46:15 -
[237] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Well I see the players shoot something, get blown up, jump into a shuttle get blown up, then jump into a catalyst and then shoot something which gets them blown up and so on. Do I believe my lying eyes or the statements here?
highlighted where your own sentence confirmed my point I did say after the second ship loss, so you mis-read what I said.
Yeah, I actually gank, so....Yes, during the 15 minute GCC, if you climb into any ship that's in space, or undock in a ship, Concord comes over and blows you up. You don't have to fire another shot.
You're confused about how concord works after the initial GCC timer. Its simple. Ganker shoots ship. Concord arrives, blows ship up. Ganker moves Concord off grid. Ganker boards new ship, concord starts returning. During the return period, ganker shoots target again.
Only the warp jamming effect of GCC is system wide. Guns are not disabled system wide, that depends on Concord arriving and activating the relevant godmode mods on you.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13755
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 11:46:53 -
[238] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: As if I care what you think I said!
Dracvlad wrote: the changes I am thinking of is a buffing of the penalties so that CONCORD blow us anything the ganker is in for 15 minutes
Try harder.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Alastair Ormand
Mine all the things
140
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 12:00:56 -
[239] - Quote
Your measures are far too extreme. Probably the only thing I agree with is the podding (now that clone grades aren't a thing).
I discourage running with scissors.
|
Lady Areola Fappington
2634
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 12:28:51 -
[240] - Quote
Alastair Ormand wrote:Your measures are far too extreme. Probably the only thing I agree with is the podding (now that clone grades aren't a thing).
Even then, if you think about it logically, podding isn't going to be much of a deterrent. The first thing I would do on starting ganking under a "concord pods" system is reset my clone to a station within the system I'm working. We don't have clone costs anymore, so that's out the window as a punishment. If need be, you can do without implants, or just use the cheap ones and figure them into cost of gank.
It'd also make hyperdunking that slight amount easier. Instead of having to pod fly your way off grid to move Concord, you can just let concord pod express you back to station. Undock, pull Concord, then head right back to the gank site to pick up a new Catalyst and get back to work.
People who advocate Concord podding are the perfect example when I say "Gankers aren't playing the same game you are". Sure, for the "normal" dude playing Eve, getting podded is going to hurt. For a ganker, all getting podded means is a faster trip back to station to wait out GCC.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
|
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6426
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 12:34:02 -
[241] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:You must really hate mining then. I can't think of an easier mode.
Besides, if you want to tilt the windmills against alts existing, this is the wrong place to do it. Pick which angsty rant you're going with, and stick with it, don't flip/flop all over the place.
[edit: Hells bells, with the three month long bitchfit you pitched about ISBoxer finally being banned, one wonders how you have the gall to call anyone else's way of playing "easy mode" Why would I hate mining? I don't even hate ganking. I just believe like all mechanics, ganking needs to be balanced. It's too low risk and low effort for the reward it gives. You can keep misrepresenting my point of view, but it won't change my views. Pretending that it's not carebear PvP is laughable mate.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 12:40:36 -
[242] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Well I see the players shoot something, get blown up, jump into a shuttle get blown up, then jump into a catalyst and then shoot something which gets them blown up and so on. Do I believe my lying eyes or the statements here?
highlighted where your own sentence confirmed my point I did say after the second ship loss, so you mis-read what I said. Yeah, I actually gank, so....Yes, during the 15 minute GCC, if you climb into any ship that's in space, or undock in a ship, Concord comes over and blows you up. You don't have to fire another shot. You're confused about how concord works after the initial GCC timer. Its simple. Ganker shoots ship. Concord arrives, blows ship up. Ganker moves Concord off grid. Ganker boards new ship, concord starts returning. During the return period, ganker shoots target again. Only the warp jamming effect of GCC is system wide. Guns are not disabled system wide, that depends on Concord arriving and activating the relevant godmode mods on you.
Thank you for the correction, so maybe CONCORD should improve in terms of how they operate for those 15 minutes.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6426
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 12:43:20 -
[243] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:At the end of the day if players have a problem with a player activity they should do something about it. CCP shouldn't have to fix a problem that can be done by a player. NPC's are busy enough they don't need an increased workload. So you're saying no mechanic should ever be balanced? Why was force projection nerfed? Players should have done something. Why was drone assist nerfed? Players should have done something. Why is fleet warp being nerfed? Players should do something.
About the whole concord reaction thing by the way, the old rule was
Quote:If you gain a Global Criminal Countdown by committing an illegal action in high security space, it is considered an exploit to attack a target after you warp away from the grid, or warp within the same grid, where you gained that GCC; even if you later return to that grid while still affected by that GCC I believe what Dracvlad is suggesting is a return to that mentality, so a GCC is a punishment preventing further criminal activity for the whole duration of the timer. As it stands the GCC is irrelevant since you can proceed without it. A -10 already has facpo on the way, so having concord on the way is no big deal.
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
190
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 12:46:01 -
[244] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
Someone mentioned this before, and I addressed it, but I guess you missed it...CONCORD already does blow up anything a GCC player is in for the whole 15 min GCC timer, whether they engage in new criminal activities in that time or not. That's part of what allows hyperdunking to work lol.
Nope after the second ship you can jump into another ship and then can shoot again, thats how hyperdunking works, doh!
You really are clueless about this. Maybe try ganking sometime before commenting. CONCORD blows up any ship in space occupied by a GCC player (which is what you're proposing), even if they aren't doing anything.
When the dunker boards the shuttle 150+ km from the target, CONCORD is drawn away to blow them up, allowing them to pod warp back to the gank site and board a new destroyer much faster than they could accomplish this if they had to dock up, and undock in a rookie ship to pull CONCORD and then warp back to the gank site, which also means less time for shield regen for the target. |
Lady Areola Fappington
2636
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 12:53:36 -
[245] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Thank you for the correction, so maybe CONCORD should improve in terms of how they operate for those 15 minutes.
No problem, always happy to share information.
I honestly doubt you're going to get much traction out of CCP when it comes to making Concord "better". CCP has said over and over and over again that highsec is safer, not safe, and suicide ganking should be a valid game mechanic.
As is, ganking in and of itself is pretty much on the ropes as a playstyle. It exists because there are dedicated groups of people out there willing to devote the time and energy needed to mitigate the consequences of suicide ganking. Any more difficult, and ganking will be functionally impossible.
Don't forget, Eve is primarily a game about player interaction and conflict. Given a choice between "let players handle it" and "Let NPC/Game mechanics handle it", CCP will veer toward "players" every time. Suicide ganking is one of those areas. Anyone can freely engage a GCC pod, and -5 and below are open season. The fact that the vast majority of highsec players won't engage an outlaw isn't reason enough to change up the mechanics.
Lets take an alternate universe Eve. Same Concord mechanics, only in this world when an outlaw shows up in local, everyone else drops what they're doing and goes on the hunt. How effective do you think ganking would be in that situation?
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
191
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 12:55:03 -
[246] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:About the whole concord reaction thing by the way, the old rule was Quote:If you gain a Global Criminal Countdown by committing an illegal action in high security space, it is considered an exploit to attack a target after you warp away from the grid, or warp within the same grid, where you gained that GCC; even if you later return to that grid while still affected by that GCC I believe what Dracvlad is suggesting is a return to that mentality, so a GCC is a punishment preventing further criminal activity for the whole duration of the timer. As it stands the GCC is irrelevant since you can proceed without it. A -10 already has facpo on the way, so having concord on the way is no big deal.
That's still true if you somehow manage to warp away in the ship that you committed the illegal act in. This isn't the case for hyperdunking, which is why it's been ruled not an exploit.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1371
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 12:55:34 -
[247] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Thank you for the correction, so maybe CONCORD should improve in terms of how they operate for those 15 minutes. Ah, now that you noticed that your proposed nerf is already implemented and it was not the "one nerf to fix them all" you just propose another nerf which will be the "one nerf to fix them all".
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 12:58:22 -
[248] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
Someone mentioned this before, and I addressed it, but I guess you missed it...CONCORD already does blow up anything a GCC player is in for the whole 15 min GCC timer, whether they engage in new criminal activities in that time or not. That's part of what allows hyperdunking to work lol.
Nope after the second ship you can jump into another ship and then can shoot again, thats how hyperdunking works, doh! You really are clueless about this. Maybe try ganking sometime before commenting. CONCORD already blows up any ship in space occupied by a GCC player (which is what you're proposing), even if they aren't doing anything. When the dunker boards the shuttle 150+ km from the target, CONCORD is drawn away to blow them up, allowing them to pod warp back to the gank site and board a new destroyer much faster than they could accomplish this if they had to dock up, and undock in a rookie ship to pull CONCORD and then warp back to the gank site, which also means less time for shield regen time for the target. Dracvlad wrote:
Thank you for the correction, so maybe CONCORD should improve in terms of how they operate for those 15 minutes.
They already kill the ganker with 100% certainty. How much more efficient can they be?
I have merely observed the mechanics and had not tried out these mechanics as others have, so yes I am going to make mistakes, clueless means someone who has no idea at all, get your terminology correct.
Lucas Kell understood what I am getting at.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 13:05:12 -
[249] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Thank you for the correction, so maybe CONCORD should improve in terms of how they operate for those 15 minutes. Ah, now that you noticed that your proposed nerf is already implemented and it was not the "one nerf to fix them all" you just propose another nerf which will be the "one nerf to fix them all".
I am not after a nerf to make hisec totally safe, I just want it a bit safer because I think there is too much ganking in hisec for the health of the game, but I believe that ganking is a perfectly legitimate play style. So my two revised suggestions is to get back to how it was in terms of the 15 minute GCC and docking penalties for -10 characters for that 15 minutes. Both perfectly reasonable suggestions and hardly something that will stop people as resourceful as you lot, just slow you down a bit which is the desired effect...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1147
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 13:07:26 -
[250] - Quote
i think there is too much carebearing in highsec...
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13756
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 13:07:48 -
[251] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Why would I hate mining? I don't even hate ganking.
Quote: I just believe like all mechanics, ganking needs to be balanced. It's too low risk and low effort for the reward it gives.
As a PvP interaction, it's level of risk and/or difficulty is directly proportional to the effort put in by the people on the other side.
And as for it's reward, that's also directly proportional to the greed and/or stupidity of the people getting ganked.
How can you "balance" the fact that dumbasses are handing it to us on a silver platter? It could be much harder, in fact with existing mechanics it could be nigh impossible, but people just will not L2P like real players.
You want to nerf ganking because some people are terribad at the game and can't learn to use obvious existing counters? You're pathetic.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13756
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 13:09:29 -
[252] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Thank you for the correction, so maybe CONCORD should improve in terms of how they operate for those 15 minutes. Ah, now that you noticed that your proposed nerf is already implemented and it was not the "one nerf to fix them all" you just propose another nerf which will be the "one nerf to fix them all".
Of course he does.
Like all of them, his goal is Trammel. They have no shame and no intellectual honesty in pursuit of their goal of killing this game.
Lan Wang wrote:i think there is too much carebearing in highsec...
Right? I don't want mission running and mining to be removed, I just want it "balanced" so they can only do it four times an hour.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
98
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 13:58:27 -
[253] - Quote
I think what Lucas Kell and others are missing is that, yeah it is relatively cheap to gank a freighter, but the risk, effort, and reward are fully 100% determined by the target's choices.
If freighters properly hauled, ganking would be a dead profession. It's because people put 10-25 billion into fully anti-tanked freighters that ganking has thrived as long as it did. It's because the PEOPLE getting ganked are stupid, not because ganking is flawed in and of itself.
You need a minimum 15 people to gank a fully expanded freighter in a 0.5 in catalysts. You need a minimum of 15 minutes for a four people to hyperdunk a fully expanded freighter with stealth bombers. (hyperdunking is easily countered by bringing in a bantam, or asking for help in local or anti-ganking)
My thought on the issue is that if you're being ganked, it's 100% your own fault for making yourself look appealing enough to get ganked (or worthwhile) or being ignorant or AFK or logged off.
On top of the DOZENS of ways to avoid getting ganked in the first place, I have no sympathy for anyone who cries about ganking. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6430
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 14:05:02 -
[254] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Why would I hate mining? I don't even hate ganking. Roll them as much as you want, I actively gank, so it would be a bit weird if I hated it.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:As a PvP interaction, it's level of risk and/or difficulty is directly proportional to the effort put in by the people on the other side.
And as for it's reward, that's also directly proportional to the greed and/or stupidity of the people getting ganked.
How can you "balance" the fact that dumbasses are handing it to us on a silver platter? It could be much harder, in fact with existing mechanics it could be nigh impossible, but people just will not L2P like real players.
You want to nerf ganking because some people are terribad at the game and can't learn to use obvious existing counters? You're pathetic. Which is irrelevant. What you're saying hes is that because the player that you have chosen specifically for being an easy target doesn't put up much resistance, that your risk/reward balance should be massively unbalanced towards reward. That's not how balance works.
How would I balance it? 1, hyperdunking would be gone. 2, concord spawn times would be far more random 3, I'd look at a way to add optional risk for improvements, such as implants to increase concord response time 4, I'd look at a way to increase how much must be risked when performing a gank (this one is tricky. Needs to be a sunk cost if someone blows you up, but recoverable if you successfully gank and get concorded). 5, I'd look at ways to make the dynamic much more balanced with AGs. Ideally if there's equal numbers of gankers and AGs, there should be a 50/50 win rate.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6430
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 14:07:05 -
[255] - Quote
Globby wrote:My thought on the issue is that if you're being ganked, it's 100% your own fault for making yourself look appealing enough to get ganked (or worthwhile) or being ignorant or AFK or logged off. Therefore you believe that there should be no balance of rewards, and ganking should remain ludicrously profitable. Shock horror, you're a carebear.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1147
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 14:09:21 -
[256] - Quote
i never made any profit ganking, i just died :(
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13757
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 14:10:13 -
[257] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Which is irrelevant.
It's absolutely relevant.
Quote: What you're saying hes is that because the player that you have chosen specifically for being an easy target doesn't put up much resistance, that your risk/reward balance should be massively unbalanced towards reward.
Nope. I'm not "specifically choosing" anything, they specifically chose to put themselves in such a state, I'm just taking advantage of their foolishness, whereas you want to remove any consequences such stupid actions have.
You want to lower the bar even further for mining and hauling. Like they aren't already two of the lowest effort activities in any MMO.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13757
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 14:12:36 -
[258] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:My thought on the issue is that if you're being ganked, it's 100% your own fault for making yourself look appealing enough to get ganked (or worthwhile) or being ignorant or AFK or logged off. Therefore you believe that there should be no balance of rewards, and ganking should remain ludicrously profitable. Shock horror, you're a carebear.
The rewards are already perfectly balanced.
Ganking in and of itself is a negative isk interaction. It relies entirely on bad choices made by other "players"(we all know they're not real players, but that's why you're here to white knight in the first place) to have any element of profitability at all. And even then it's subject to the loot fairy.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1148
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 14:20:13 -
[259] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:My thought on the issue is that if you're being ganked, it's 100% your own fault for making yourself look appealing enough to get ganked (or worthwhile) or being ignorant or AFK or logged off. Therefore you believe that there should be no balance of rewards, and ganking should remain ludicrously profitable. Shock horror, you're a carebear.
how exactly do you balance player choice?, what i mean is, its the players choice to load so much stuff in a freighter so should we nerf freighter by only allowing a certain amount of isk to be carried?
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
99
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 14:32:22 -
[260] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:My thought on the issue is that if you're being ganked, it's 100% your own fault for making yourself look appealing enough to get ganked (or worthwhile) or being ignorant or AFK or logged off. Therefore you believe that there should be no balance of rewards, and ganking should remain ludicrously profitable. Shock horror, you're a carebear.
Do you want to look at the rest of my correct points? Or are you just going to say something completely irrelevant and just pretend you're not wrong. |
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1370
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 14:59:13 -
[261] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:At the end of the day if players have a problem with a player activity they should do something about it. CCP shouldn't have to fix a problem that can be done by a player. NPC's are busy enough they don't need an increased workload. So you're saying no mechanic should ever be balanced? Why was force projection nerfed? Players should have done something. Why was drone assist nerfed? Players should have done something. Why is fleet warp being nerfed? Players should do something. You haven't proposed a mechanic balance this whole thread is an attempt to end ganking which is achievable by less then half the ganking force on the defenders side. I have with 3 toons in the last 2 weeks saved 2 freighters while being ganked with a combo of RR and jams. They were 8 and 12 in size and 3 people and the target managed to survive/win whatever you want to call it. That's repeatable and therefore balanced in my opinion. It's also counterable by the gankers depending on the effort/manpower they are willing to throw at the AG's. Welcome to Highsec where preparation is king and not always numbers. As for the rest of it *shrug* I couldn't care less about them but if you wanna argue those start a thread and I'm sure people will argue the merits of it there. In the mean while we are dealing with small gang stuff.
PS fleet warp hurt gankers more then anybody
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1370
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:00:25 -
[262] - Quote
Globby wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:My thought on the issue is that if you're being ganked, it's 100% your own fault for making yourself look appealing enough to get ganked (or worthwhile) or being ignorant or AFK or logged off. Therefore you believe that there should be no balance of rewards, and ganking should remain ludicrously profitable. Shock horror, you're a carebear. Do you want to look at the rest of my correct points? Or are you just going to say something completely irrelevant and just pretend you're not wrong. The balance of rewards is the hauler's choice, do you want CCP to limit them from how much they're hauling? Lucas thrives on not only ignoring where he is wrong but pretending that the things he can't argue don't exist
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Sarah Flynt
104
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:09:08 -
[263] - Quote
Globby wrote:The balance of rewards is the hauler's choice, do you want CCP to limit them from how much they're hauling? I have to admit, that's one hell of a choice:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48004752/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/48004365/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/48003643/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/48003406/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/48002786/
And that's just from today. How much less than NOTHING do you suggest people should carry in their freighters?
Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6430
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:15:03 -
[264] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Nope. I'm not "specifically choosing" anything, they specifically chose to put themselves in such a state, I'm just taking advantage of their foolishness, whereas you want to remove any consequences such stupid actions have. Lol, of course you are. *scan* Too tanked. *scan* Bad loot *scan* Jackpot! Let's go!
That's choosing.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:You want to lower the bar even further for mining and hauling. Like they aren't already two of the lowest effort activities in any MMO. The are also two of the lowest paid in EVE. Mining also needs a change to make it more complex however.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:The rewards are already perfectly balanced. Nope
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ganking in and of itself is a negative isk interaction. It relies entirely on bad choices made by other "players"(we all know they're not real players, but that's why you're here to white knight in the first place) to have any element of profitability at all. And even then it's subject to the loot fairy. And yet any competent ganker is rolling in isk and can give you a good idea of how much income ganking will generate. What you're doing here is stating that because a gank can yield low that reward is low, but it's not, like exploration it's chance based but averages out. There's a reason miniluv can afford to send out tens of thousands of gankers for events like burn jita, and it's not because they mine a lot.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
101
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:18:46 -
[265] - Quote
You do realize that, hey, those are paid for BY THE BIG FREIGHTERS that came through the previous days, day after day, every day for the last two years, and those that will continue to come through because hey, they refuse to change their fits, or scout, or webber, or fit TANK.
Why are these people running through a system where there are gankers currently logged on and blinking red without a webber, or fitting CARGO EXPANDERS when they have no cargo? It's bad player decision.
Lucas Kell wrote:And yet any competent ganker is rolling in isk and can give you a good idea of how much income ganking will generate. What you're doing here is stating that because a gank can yield low that reward is low, but it's not, like exploration it's chance based but averages out. There's a reason miniluv can afford to send out tens of thousands of gankers for events like burn jita, and it's not because they mine a lot.
What don't you get about the fact that the reward is 100% in the hands of the hauler? |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6430
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:19:56 -
[266] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:My thought on the issue is that if you're being ganked, it's 100% your own fault for making yourself look appealing enough to get ganked (or worthwhile) or being ignorant or AFK or logged off. Therefore you believe that there should be no balance of rewards, and ganking should remain ludicrously profitable. Shock horror, you're a carebear. how exactly do you balance player choice?, what i mean is, its the players choice to load so much stuff in a freighter so should we nerf freighter by only allowing a certain amount of isk to be carried? I've already stated what I'd change. It's not about balancing player choice, but introducing other factors and making the activity move complex. I'm not saying lower the reward (though if I were saying that it would be simple - lower drop rates from ganked ships), I'm saying bring the complexity up so that there's more individual effort and more active factors to consider while doing the actual gank.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6431
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:30:10 -
[267] - Quote
Globby wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:And yet any competent ganker is rolling in isk and can give you a good idea of how much income ganking will generate. What you're doing here is stating that because a gank can yield low that reward is low, but it's not, like exploration it's chance based but averages out. There's a reason miniluv can afford to send out tens of thousands of gankers for events like burn jita, and it's not because they mine a lot. What don't you get about the fact that the reward is 100% in the hands of the hauler? The haulers CHOOSE to haul with anti-tank through the most dangerous systems in prime time without scouting, using a webber, asking for help, asking for intel, or anything else? What don't you get about the fact that it's irrelevant where the reward comes from when it comes to picking how to balance a mechanic? If an activity was found tomorrow that allowed people to harvest 50b isk per hour due to some other player's choices, you'd sure as hell see it balanced.
The whole game is PvP, no matter what you do, that is an element of the game, and reward will always be base on decisions of others. What you're saying is that other forms of income should still be balanced to a reasonable level, but ganking should always remain ludicrously profitable. That's because you're a carebear. The only balance you care about is in your wallet.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
101
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:30:41 -
[268] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:My thought on the issue is that if you're being ganked, it's 100% your own fault for making yourself look appealing enough to get ganked (or worthwhile) or being ignorant or AFK or logged off. Therefore you believe that there should be no balance of rewards, and ganking should remain ludicrously profitable. Shock horror, you're a carebear. how exactly do you balance player choice?, what i mean is, its the players choice to load so much stuff in a freighter so should we nerf freighter by only allowing a certain amount of isk to be carried? I've already stated what I'd change. It's not about balancing player choice, but introducing other factors and making the activity move complex. I'm not saying lower the reward (though if I were saying that it would be simple - lower drop rates from ganked ships), I'm saying bring the complexity up so that there's more individual effort and more active factors to consider while doing the actual gank.
Give me something in the game that is more complex than freighter fleet ganking, or hyperdunking. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6431
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:31:00 -
[269] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:You haven't proposed a mechanic balance Wrong
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Lucas thrives on not only ignoring where he is wrong but pretending that the things he can't argue don't exist Irrelevant, I'm never wrong. Never.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6431
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:33:03 -
[270] - Quote
Globby wrote:Give me something in the game that is more complex than freighter fleet ganking, or hyperdunking. Easy. Sov mechanics. But no, incursions for a start. Even profitably doing industry on the scale of income that ganking generates is more complex than ganking.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
101
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:33:36 -
[271] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:And yet any competent ganker is rolling in isk and can give you a good idea of how much income ganking will generate. What you're doing here is stating that because a gank can yield low that reward is low, but it's not, like exploration it's chance based but averages out. There's a reason miniluv can afford to send out tens of thousands of gankers for events like burn jita, and it's not because they mine a lot. What don't you get about the fact that the reward is 100% in the hands of the hauler? The haulers CHOOSE to haul with anti-tank through the most dangerous systems in prime time without scouting, using a webber, asking for help, asking for intel, or anything else? What don't you get about the fact that it's irrelevant where the reward comes from when it comes to picking how to balance a mechanic? If an activity was found tomorrow that allowed people to harvest 50b isk per hour due to some other player's choices, you'd sure as hell see it balanced. The whole game is PvP, no matter what you do, that is an element of the game, and reward will always be base on decisions of others. What you're saying is that other forms of income should still be balanced to a reasonable level, but ganking should always remain ludicrously profitable. That's because you're a carebear. The only balance you care about is in your wallet.
Ganking being profitable isn't because of CCP, or an ingame mechanic or anything, it's because people haul a lot more than they should. You can see that it's only a drop in the bucket because if hauling became inviable because of ganking you'd see a lot fewer haulers, which isn't happening.
If every hauler hauled properly, ganking would be dead in a month. Proper hauling has a 99% chance of success even in the worst situations. It's funny how broken moving a freighter through highsec is if you do it properly. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
101
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:38:12 -
[272] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:Give me something in the game that is more complex than freighter fleet ganking, or hyperdunking. Easy. Sov mechanics. But no, incursions for a start. Even profitably doing industry on the scale of income that ganking generates is more complex than ganking.
What do you mean by sov mechanics? I mean, I could say that 'nullsec' is more complex, but that's like comparing apples to oranges, I probably should have phrased the question better.
Incursions are definitely not more complex, it's all completely calculated out perfectly. They know exactly what they're going into and what the possibilities are, it's PvE and it never changes. CODE. freighter fleets are constantly harassed by anti-gankers who can do anything they set their mind to, and we have plenty of ideas of what they could do to actually hurt us during these encounters, but we never know what they're going to do, it's all predictions and seeing how they telegraph their actions.
There is a lot to it that you wouldn't understand unless you ran some fleets or participated.
You see a lot of one sided super/titan kills in low/null sec all the time, where one ship is killed by significantly more people, and usually the attackers lose nothing. The only reason these people are content to sit here and bide their time are because stupid people don't properly deal with their own assets and take the proper precautions to be safe, even though there are 100% safe methods available to do said thing in the game. It's player stupidity that you want to buff, not balance. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6431
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:40:27 -
[273] - Quote
Globby wrote:Ganking being profitable isn't because of CCP, or an ingame mechanic or anything, it's because people haul a lot more than they should. You can see that it's only a drop in the bucket because if hauling became inviable because of ganking you'd see a lot fewer haulers, which isn't happening.
If every hauler hauled properly, ganking would be dead in a month. Proper hauling has a 99% chance of success even in the worst situations. It's funny how broken moving a freighter through highsec is if you do it properly. I don't want ganking dead. I want it to be complex, challenging and risky enough to be fitting for the average income from the activity. Ideally I'd like to see more in the way of active counters and counter-counters too.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
101
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:48:43 -
[274] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:Ganking being profitable isn't because of CCP, or an ingame mechanic or anything, it's because people haul a lot more than they should. You can see that it's only a drop in the bucket because if hauling became inviable because of ganking you'd see a lot fewer haulers, which isn't happening.
If every hauler hauled properly, ganking would be dead in a month. Proper hauling has a 99% chance of success even in the worst situations. It's funny how broken moving a freighter through highsec is if you do it properly. I don't want ganking dead. I want it to be complex, challenging and risky enough to be fitting for the average income from the activity. Ideally I'd like to see more in the way of active counters and counter-counters too. Run a freighter fleet and tell me it's not complex, please. If you haven't done it before and seen the problems with it then you really cant talk to it's many intricacies and difficulties. You see the profit, none of the difficulty going into it, and you just ASSUME that one person is collecting the profit. If you calculate that you made 20 billion (that's pretty high) after a three hour freighter fleet in uedama with twenty DPS (not including the dozen support, bumpers, contract makers) and subtracting the cost of the ships, you'd make roughly 100 mil per hour. That's definitely in line with regular activities, even less than incursions.
there are counters to ganking that exist right now that in their own right can break it and delete it, just people are bad at eve
counters that make it ZERO reward.
I don't know how much riskier you can make it, spending several billion on taloses to kill a big target in jita and still get nothing out of it. |
Sarah Flynt
104
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Posted - 2015.07.22 15:50:09 -
[275] - Quote
Globby wrote:You do realize that, hey, those are paid for BY THE BIG FREIGHTERS that came through the previous days, day after day, every day for the last two years, and those that will continue to come through because hey, they refuse to change their fits, or scout, or webber, or fit TANK.
Oh, so it isn't about the cargo choice of the respective freighter pilot after all? It's about the choices of other, completely unrelated pilots. I see.
Globby wrote:Why are these people running through a system where there are gankers currently logged on and blinking red without a webber, or fitting CARGO EXPANDERS when they have no cargo? It's bad player decision.
Because they have nothing loaded or fitted that anyone could possibly want to steal.
Globby wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:And yet any competent ganker is rolling in isk and can give you a good idea of how much income ganking will generate. What you're doing here is stating that because a gank can yield low that reward is low, but it's not, like exploration it's chance based but averages out. There's a reason miniluv can afford to send out tens of thousands of gankers for events like burn jita, and it's not because they mine a lot. What don't you get about the fact that the reward is 100% in the hands of the hauler? The haulers CHOOSE to haul with anti-tank through the most dangerous systems in prime time without scouting, using a webber, asking for help, asking for intel, or anything else?
You do realize that you're contradicting yourself in a single post, right? Todays reality is: it's irrelevant how much cargo one carries in a freighter. You'll get ganked anyway these days, so please drop the charade that it makes any difference how much one carries. That used to be the case but those times are long gone.
Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6431
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:56:09 -
[276] - Quote
Globby wrote:Incursions are definitely not more complex, it's all completely calculated out perfectly. Lol? And ganks aren't? There's spreadsheets that you literally paste the fit into and it tells you how many people you need. The toughest part of a freighter gank is the bumping, which itself is more monotonous than complex. After that it's fleet warp to target, overheating and grouping on the way, then approach and hit F1. at the very least with incursions you have to actively focus targets and have logi working well to keep people up as and when they need it. And they have billions of bling fit on the line, not a bunch of cheap, disposable ships.
Globby wrote:CODE. freighter fleets are constantly harassed by anti-gankers LOL! Anti-gankers! Those guys you make a point of explainign how futile their attemps are at nearly every opportunity? Dude, I've been on plenty of gank fleets, and they genearlly just mean that you'll have additional targets to get a volley or two on when the freighter goes pop.
Globby wrote:There is a lot to it that you wouldn't understand unless you ran some fleets or participated. I've run a few a while back and I participate these days. Stop pretending it's more complex than it is :D
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
102
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:58:41 -
[277] - Quote
Sarah Flynt wrote:Oh, so it isn't about the cargo choice of the respective freighter pilot after all? It's about the choices of other, completely unrelated pilots. I see.
If there are no current targets, we will kill completely anti-tanked (ie freighters that fit modules that actually reduce their EHP) for fun between big kills.
Sarah Flynt wrote:Because they have nothing loaded or fitted that anyone could possibly want to steal.
The misconception is that ganking is for profit. Let me tell you the things that ganking profits buy us: Ganking ships Ganking ships Bumping Macharials Ganking Ships
Sarah Flynt wrote:You do realize that you're contradicting yourself in a single post, right? Todays reality is: it's irrelevant how much cargo one carries in a freighter. You'll get ganked anyway these days, so please drop the charade that it makes any difference how much one carries. That used to be the case but those times are long gone.
It's a simple equation, if you're easily ganked then you will die. If you're hard to gank, you wont die. If you're valuable to gank, you will die. If you're hard to gank and valuable, it is a deterrent and you might or might not die depending on the situation.]
Also, normal freighter fleets are not net positive over time. The hunting of big whales is what is profitable, and is done quietly in side systems with the intent to avoid antiganking. |
Sarah Flynt
104
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Posted - 2015.07.22 15:59:08 -
[278] - Quote
Globby wrote:I don't know how much riskier you can make it, spending several billion on taloses to kill a big target in jita and still get nothing out of it. It's simple math and evens out over time, so it's no risk at all for career gankers. Of course you already know that, so why bring it up at all?
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
102
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:02:41 -
[279] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:Incursions are definitely not more complex, it's all completely calculated out perfectly. Lol? And ganks aren't? There's spreadsheets that you literally paste the fit into and it tells you how many people you need. The toughest part of a freighter gank is the bumping, which itself is more monotonous than complex. After that it's fleet warp to target, overheating and grouping on the way, then approach and hit F1. at the very least with incursions you have to actively focus targets and have logi working well to keep people up as and when they need it. And they have billions of bling fit on the line, not a bunch of cheap, disposable ships. Globby wrote:CODE. freighter fleets are constantly harassed by anti-gankers LOL! Anti-gankers! Those guys you make a point of explainign how futile their attemps are at nearly every opportunity? Dude, I've been on plenty of gank fleets, and they genearlly just mean that you'll have additional targets to get a volley or two on when the freighter goes pop. Globby wrote:There is a lot to it that you wouldn't understand unless you ran some fleets or participated. I've run a few a while back and I participate these days. Stop pretending it's more complex than it is :D
I don't even know who you are, I've spoken to miniluv and CODE. and no one knows who you are. You're a liar and a fraud.
Bumping for a fleet is hard, you need to time your bumps and the fleet arriving perfectly, because if the freighter is moving too fast (over 150) when the fleet starts to warp, you will have catalysts too far away to apply damage, and then fail a gank.
Anyone who has ran a fleet or participated knows that although killing a freighter isn't all that hard with enough people, it's definitely not profitable if you have one person dedicated to trolling you. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
102
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:03:57 -
[280] - Quote
Sarah Flynt wrote:Globby wrote:I don't know how much riskier you can make it, spending several billion on taloses to kill a big target in jita and still get nothing out of it. It's simple math and evens out over time, so it's no risk at all for career gankers. Of course you already know that, so why bring it up at all?
Haha, hello, welcome wreck shooters. People who show up all the time just to shoot wrecks deny us of all our loot. Standard fleets haven't been profitable in weeks, and hyperdunking stops being profitable the second one person shows up to stop me. |
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6431
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:08:58 -
[281] - Quote
Globby wrote:I don't even know who you are, I've spoken to miniluv and CODE. and no one knows who you are. You're a liar and a fraud. Well you've obviously spoken to the wrong people. My most recent gank alt is tied directly to this character and I'm a member of the sig. I'll let you do the legwork on that one, but it shouldn't be too hard.
Globby wrote:Bumping for a fleet is hard, you need to time your bumps and the fleet arriving perfectly, because if the freighter is moving too fast (over 150) when the fleet starts to warp, you will have catalysts too far away to apply damage, and then fail a gank. Like I said, it's definitely the most complex part but in itself is not that complex. Once the fleet arrives in system, drop speed for the bump and order the warp in at the right time then reposition and prep to rebump if needed.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
102
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:13:05 -
[282] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:I don't even know who you are, I've spoken to miniluv and CODE. and no one knows who you are. You're a liar and a fraud. Well you've obviously spoken to the wrong people. My most recent gank alt is tied directly to this character and I'm a member of the sig. I'll let you do the legwork on that one, but it shouldn't be too hard.
You still do not acknowledge that standard gank fleets haven't been profitable for weeks.
what is 'harder' or more 'complex' is totally subjective. running 6 dps, bumping and being my own warpin is probably the most difficult activity in the game imo. I'm trying to point out the hypocrisy of calculated pve that never changes with freighter pvp where anything could happen. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6431
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:27:48 -
[283] - Quote
Globby wrote:You still do not acknowledge that standard gank fleets haven't been profitable for weeks. I'm just a grunt these days, I don't have anything to do with the profit, I just get given a ship and F1, so it's a little hard to say one way or the other. I've certainly not seen anyone whining about lack of profits though.
Globby wrote:what is 'harder' or more 'complex' is totally subjective. running 6 dps, bumping and being my own warpin is probably the most difficult activity in the game imo. I'm trying to point out the hypocrisy of calculated pve that never changes with freighter pvp where anything could happen. Multiboxing is always going to be more complex. I'm sure you could find many things more complex. Off the top of my head I imagine doing 3 burner missions, flying a freighter thorugh null, being both the freighter and the scout, while simultaneously being logi in an incursion fleet would be pretty complex too. The thing is, the fact that you can successfully run 6 dps while being bumper and warpin says to me that it's pretty low complexity.
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Robert Sawyer
The Vendunari End of Life
64
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:33:06 -
[284] - Quote
Maybe all you high-sec miners / haulers would live longer if:
1) You'd start mining in a quiet system. I'm happily mining away in a quiet high-sec system, free of those annoying CODE. twats. 2) Avoid Uedama. That's a CODE. -policed system and a Freighter chokepoint. 3) Double wrap your sh*t. Nobody will want to gank you if they have no idea what you have.
PS: If a capsuleer initiates combat with your ship, you have the CONCORD-given right to retaliate with appropriate force.
"And when, at last, the moment is yours, that agony will become your greatest triumph."
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
102
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:36:44 -
[285] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:I'm just a grunt these days, I don't have anything to do with the profit, I just get given a ship and F1, so it's a little hard to say one way or the other. I've certainly not seen anyone whining about lack of profits though. Do you actually know where the funding is coming from? I'll tell you it's definitely not from highsec.
The more I talk with you guys the more I realize you're actually not just trying to nerf ganking because you hate it, you actually don't understand it at all. I will answer any questions you have. |
Sarah Flynt
104
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:37:01 -
[286] - Quote
Globby wrote:You still do not acknowledge that standard gank fleets haven't been profitable for weeks. You'd be the first one to get rich by mass-ganking random low-value or empty freighters. Did you really expect anything else with that kind of target selection?
Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
102
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:40:08 -
[287] - Quote
Sarah Flynt wrote:Globby wrote:You still do not acknowledge that standard gank fleets haven't been profitable for weeks. You'd be the first one to get rich by mass-ganking random low-value or empty freighters. Did you really expect anything else with that kind of target selection?
the only reason we ever make money is off of pure, blind incompetence. if anyone is even sort of on their game ganking cannot net a profit. so the argument that ganking is ridiculously profitable is null and void
what exactly do you think is broken with current ganking? Do you think twenty people should not be able to kill one AFK, lazy, incompetent or intentionally reckless person in highsec? |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6431
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:44:15 -
[288] - Quote
Globby wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:I'm just a grunt these days, I don't have anything to do with the profit, I just get given a ship and F1, so it's a little hard to say one way or the other. I've certainly not seen anyone whining about lack of profits though. Do you actually know where the funding is coming from? I'll tell you it's definitely not from highsec. I was under the impression miniluv was entirely self-funded and proud of that fact.
Globby wrote:The more I talk with you guys the more I realize you're actually not just trying to nerf ganking because you hate it, you actually don't understand it at all. I will answer any questions you have. You're half right. I don't hate ganking at all, I simply think it needs balance. I do however understand the mechanics of it, I just don't feel the need to pretend it's far more difficult than it is like you do. I can't tell if you do that for fear of CCP making it harder or because you want people to give you some sort of respect for your carbearing.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6431
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:50:26 -
[289] - Quote
Globby wrote:what exactly do you think is broken with current ganking? Do you think twenty people should not be able to kill one AFK, lazy, incompetent or intentionally reckless person in highsec? Of course they should, but there should be variation in the mechanics and far more in the way of active counters and counter-counters. The way I'd like to see it is for an AFK loot pinata to die as quickly if not more quickly than now, but an actively piloted ship to have some method of actively making the gankers put in more effort without reliance on an alt (not enough to get away, but enough to make you have to react differently). I'd further like to see AGs having an active defensive role while the gank goes down with the gankers having to actively respond as it's occurring, rather than it being a case of all 99% preparation 1% execution. I hate seeing passive roles when people interact. It's why I want mining to be completely overhauled too.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
102
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:54:48 -
[290] - Quote
I never said it was hard or complex, nothing in eve is hard or complex. If you unironically call mining, running incursions, or F1-ing in a nullsec fleet 'hard', you need to honestly rethink eve. Being a ganker is no harder, nor easier than F1-ing in a fleet fight, and bumping is no different in difficulty than running as a logistics player in a fleet. Being an FC is exactly the same, you have to know what you can and can't do, and what could possibly happen. The difference between incursions and pvp fleets is that while running incursions there are no variables, once you have a system that works it works forever. A PvP/freighter fleet is different, as soon as you start running against other players, you open yourself up to counters, counter-counters, and so on, infinitely. |
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1372
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Posted - 2015.07.22 17:01:16 -
[291] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:You haven't proposed a mechanic balance WrongNoragen Neirfallas wrote:Lucas thrives on not only ignoring where he is wrong but pretending that the things he can't argue don't exist Irrelevant, I'm never wrong. Never. lets take a look lucas
How would I balance it? 1, hyperdunking would be gone. (removal of game play does not = balance) 2, concord spawn times would be far more random (possible balance depending on what you would suggest) 3, I'd look at a way to add optional risk for improvements, such as implants to increase concord response time (implants to affect npc ship behavior? why not have implants that decrease concord response time too? that would be balancing the silly 'balance') 4, I'd look at a way to increase how much must be risked when performing a gank (this one is tricky. Needs to be a sunk cost if someone blows you up, but recoverable if you successfully gank and get concorded). (the risk is already on the gankers side. it only goes smoothly if you don't attempt to stop them. Also this is not a balance suggestion, you need to suggest something) 5, I'd look at ways to make the dynamic much more balanced with AGs. Ideally if there's equal numbers of gankers and AGs, there should be a 50/50 win rate. (you really don't need equal numbers unless your a fool. 2 ospreys can save a freighter with heated large reps from 85km away but ultimately you haven't suggested a balance here either)
5 dot points and only 1 thing that could be considered actual balancing and only because it mixes things up with out tipping the scale. To be honest ganking is in a very good place right now. It's extremely difficult to pull off solo and easily counterable by anybody with some co-ordination and patience.
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Sarah Flynt
104
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 18:23:38 -
[292] - Quote
Globby wrote:the only reason we ever make money is off of pure, blind incompetence. if anyone is even sort of on their game ganking cannot net a profit. so the argument that ganking is ridiculously profitable is null and void Your last sentence assumes that there were no "pure, blind incompetent" freighter pilots, as you call them. We both know that the opposite is true, in fact you yourself prove it on a daily basis. You even go as far a bragging about it in the MD subforum; let me quote you:
Globby wrote:Ganking freighters is profitable for an organization [...] With this loan, we can buy 12 to 24 hour's worth of ships to gank with and come out with substantial profits, which will be paid back as interest onto bond holders. Or is this yet another of your (as in CODE.) social experiments in order to find the biggest idiot in the game? FWIW: I assume both.
Globby wrote:what exactly do you think is broken with current ganking? Do you think twenty people should not be able to kill one AFK, lazy, incompetent or intentionally reckless person in highsec? As for the second question: Yes, I think they should be able to do it and I doubt you'll find any reasonable person from my camp who wants to actually remove highsec ganking from the game. It would make highsec super boring.
The first question is much more difficult to answer and I cannot give you a general answer as the topic is much too diverse, especially when taking dedicated gank-alts into account. The tl;dr answer is: yes, I consider it broken in many but not all settings. A detailled answer would probably cover several pages and would most likely be a waste of time anyway. That's also not the reason why I have started posting in this threat.
Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
104
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 18:37:22 -
[293] - Quote
For the first point you made, the "if anyone is even sort of on their game ganking cannot net a profit." quote is directing to anti gankers who shoot wrecks in the tick before they can even be looted, which is an incredibly hard and nigh impossible thing to counter.
For the second point, Hyperdunking is profitable if it can be done, which I do. I've stopped on Globby from doing it but I do it regularly on alts who have never shown up on zkillboard. Hyperdunking is also the most risky thing to do as a ganker because one guy in a frigate shuts you down and saves the freighter. That is why I generally wait for AFK or autopiloting freighters who don't call for help.
And for your third point, if you do not have specifics as how ganking is too broken, then there can be no further discussion on the topic, really. People's stupidity gets themselves ganked and repeatedly ganked, and then feeds groups like CODE. and Miniluv. I have absolutely no sympathy for people who get ganked because there are so many ways to render CODE. and Miniuv useless that I really can't find an excuse for you. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6432
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 19:06:04 -
[294] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:lets take a look lucas
How would I balance it? 1, hyperdunking would be gone. (removal of game play does not = balance) 2, concord spawn times would be far more random (possible balance depending on what you would suggest) 3, I'd look at a way to add optional risk for improvements, such as implants to increase concord response time (implants to affect npc ship behavior? why not have implants that decrease concord response time too? that would be balancing the silly 'balance') 4, I'd look at a way to increase how much must be risked when performing a gank (this one is tricky. Needs to be a sunk cost if someone blows you up, but recoverable if you successfully gank and get concorded). (the risk is already on the gankers side. it only goes smoothly if you don't attempt to stop them. Also this is not a balance suggestion, you need to suggest something) 5, I'd look at ways to make the dynamic much more balanced with AGs. Ideally if there's equal numbers of gankers and AGs, there should be a 50/50 win rate. (you really don't need equal numbers unless your a fool. 2 ospreys can save a freighter with heated large reps from 85km away but ultimately you haven't suggested a balance here either)
5 dot points and only 1 thing that could be considered actual balancing and only because it mixes things up with out tipping the scale. To be honest ganking is in a very good place right now. It's extremely difficult to pull off solo and easily counterable by anybody with some co-ordination and patience. 1. I'm not looking for a balance to hyperdunking, I'd be looking for a balance to ganking in general. Hyperdunking as a method of ganking is dumb as it allows you to leverage infinite damage without adding more dudes.
2. Id be looking for it at a minimum to range from half of what if currently is to twice what it currently is with mid level implants from point 3.
3. It's not that it would affect their behaviour so much as it would affect your ability to be detected by them (lore wise). The idea would be to give gankers, like other types of players, choice over how much they want to spend to alter how good they are at their chosen role. Let's give quick examples of how this would work with point 2 Let's say for arguments sake that concord response time now is 30s: With no implants: between 5s and 50s With middle set of implants: between 15s and 60s With top set of implants: between 25s and 70s
4. But basically nothing is risked by gankers. They risk cheap disposable ships that are written off before they even undock. Even a newbie ganker simply shrugs and goes again if they fail a gank. I was under the impression that part of EVE was about actually losing something significant if you fail. Otherwise we may as well just respawn with our ships.
5. You say that, but I've seen time and again AGs simply being ignored as we plough on through a target. It's a joke to consider them a significant counter. If they even manage to get to the right target (as they have no way of knowing which bumped target is the one) they only have a slim chance of actually disrupting the gank.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
104
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 19:38:56 -
[295] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: 1. I'm not looking for a balance to hyperdunking, I'd be looking for a balance to ganking in general. Hyperdunking as a method of ganking is dumb as it allows you to leverage infinite damage without adding more dudes.
2. Id be looking for it at a minimum to range from half of what if currently is to twice what it currently is with mid level implants from point 3.
3. It's not that it would affect their behaviour so much as it would affect your ability to be detected by them (lore wise). The idea would be to give gankers, like other types of players, choice over how much they want to spend to alter how good they are at their chosen role. Let's give quick examples of how this would work with point 2 Let's say for arguments sake that concord response time now is 30s: With no implants: between 5s and 50s With middle set of implants: between 15s and 60s With top set of implants: between 25s and 70s
4. But basically nothing is risked by gankers. They risk cheap disposable ships that are written off before they even undock. Even a newbie ganker simply shrugs and goes again if they fail a gank. I was under the impression that part of EVE was about actually losing something significant if you fail. Otherwise we may as well just respawn with our ships.
5. You say that, but I've seen time and again AGs simply being ignored as we plough on through a target. It's a joke to consider them a significant counter. If they even manage to get to the right target (as they have no way of knowing which bumped target is the one) they only have a slim chance of actually disrupting the gank.
1) You've once again ignored the previous statement I made about hyperdunking. You're assuming infinite time with hyperdunking but not with a standard fleet. If you have infinite time both with hyperdunking and a fleet you have infinite damage for both. It's actually more man hours and minutes of actual piloting to do hyperdunking than standard freighter ganking. Oh, and it also only really works on AFK/autopiloting targets, or people who don't call for help for 20 minutes straight. Yeah. Oh, also it's less efficient with hyperdunking because of the 3-5 second delay between boarding and being able to start shooting. =Hyperdunking is an easily countered, easily avoidable tactic that takes a long time to accomplish and is very difficult to do. It punishes AFK, lazy and incompetent players and rewards attentive, proactive and smart players=
4) Time is risked, period. We are the risk, fool. If we fail, we lose all the preparation time of bumping and setting up the gank. We lose the time spend shipping the stuff, building the stuff and handing it out to people. We lost the money those ships cost. The risk is TIME.
5) One person can shoot a freighter wreck every single time with no real counter. If antiganking fleets matched code. fleets in logistics numbers, no freighters would ever die. There are plenty of other things they can do that I wont tell them they can do to royally screw CODE. and Miniluv over. Are you saying two or three antigankers should be able to counter 20 CODE. guys? You make these claims on opinions that can't possibly be wrong, but any and all suggestions you give (if you give any) are very bad ideas or simply wouldn't work, or would just neuter ganking on the spot. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1151
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 19:56:43 -
[296] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:4. But basically nothing is risked by gankers. They risk cheap disposable ships that are written off before they even undock. Even a newbie ganker simply shrugs and goes again if they fail a gank. I was under the impression that part of EVE was about actually losing something significant if you fail. Otherwise we may as well just respawn with our ships.
but i guess you also claim srp for losses in pvp so you will just shrug off a loss also, where is the risk in that?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 19:57:10 -
[297] - Quote
lol, "I risk time". Seriously?
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 20:01:08 -
[298] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:4. But basically nothing is risked by gankers. They risk cheap disposable ships that are written off before they even undock. Even a newbie ganker simply shrugs and goes again if they fail a gank. I was under the impression that part of EVE was about actually losing something significant if you fail. Otherwise we may as well just respawn with our ships. but i guess you also claim srp for losses in pvp so you will just shrug off a loss also, where is the risk in that? I don;t claim to be taking a risk, but then I'm nto raking an income. From the point of view of the guy giving out the ship and receiving the income from sov, there's very real risks. Putting hundreds of billions of isk on the line for a fleet fight to save a station or a system is pretty significant. OTOH, risking 20-30 catalysts is nothing. It's a low amount of nothing that most single players would put that on the line and some. Most non-blinged L4 mission runners put more than that on the line for a single ship. That catalysts for gankers are comparable with ammo is a serious display of how insignificant the assets on the line are.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
104
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 20:05:19 -
[299] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:lol, "I risk time". Seriously?
What is that supposed to mean? If I form up a fleet and wait two hours for a kill and nothing happens that's not a risk? I literally wasted 40+ man hours of time and made people less wanting to go on my fleets. Lol if you think time isn't a risk.
The risk is effort, we put all this effort in for NOTHING, we could have spent it on doing funcursions and make 4 billion in those same 40 man hours. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 20:07:03 -
[300] - Quote
Globby wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:lol, "I risk time". Seriously? What is that supposed to mean? If I form up a fleet and wait two hours for a kill and nothing happens that's not a risk? I literally wasted 40+ man hours of time and made people less wanting to go on my fleets. Lol if you think time isn't a risk. The risk is effort, we put all this effort in for NOTHING, we could have spent it on doing funcursions and make 4 billion in those same 40 man hours. No, I don't consider time spent on a game to be a risk. Careful, you're bordering on a Gevlonish "but opportunity costs!" viewpoint here.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
104
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 20:09:50 -
[301] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:lol, "I risk time". Seriously? What is that supposed to mean? If I form up a fleet and wait two hours for a kill and nothing happens that's not a risk? I literally wasted 40+ man hours of time and made people less wanting to go on my fleets. Lol if you think time isn't a risk. The risk is effort, we put all this effort in for NOTHING, we could have spent it on doing funcursions and make 4 billion in those same 40 man hours. No, I don't consider time spent on a game to be a risk. Careful, you're bordering on a Gevlonish "but opportunity costs!" viewpoint here.
You're literally the embodiment of 'the minerals I mine are free.' with that mindset, that your time and effort have zero value. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
104
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 20:12:18 -
[302] - Quote
"Yeah, it only took us three runs and three hours with a 45 man fleet to kill that logged off anshar in jita with four billion in ships, ganking is totally broken." |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 20:20:54 -
[303] - Quote
Globby wrote:You're literally the embodiment of 'the minerals I mine are free.' with that mindset, that your time and effort have zero value. Not quite, but if you go down the route of opportunity cost, then the riskiest activity is ship spinning, because you could be making so much more isk.
Risk in a given activity isn't defined by what you could be doing instead.
Specifically about MIMAF, it's true, minerals mined are free. The dumb part about that that people are really trying to get at isn't about he minerals being free, it's about the product value vs the material value. Regardless of how much you value your time, if the minerals are worth 50m and the manufactured product is worth 45m, then it's not worth producing. It;s not that they've undervalued their time, it's that they've undervalued their minerals when they produced the product. If it were all about time, then the best form of mining is incursions and anyone that mines is automatically stupid. But it's a game, and we all choose what we do based on whatever metrics of preference we want.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
104
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 20:26:46 -
[304] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:You're literally the embodiment of 'the minerals I mine are free.' with that mindset, that your time and effort have zero value. Not quite, but if you go down the route of opportunity cost, then the riskiest activity is ship spinning, because you could be making so much more isk. Risk in a given activity isn't defined by what you could be doing instead. Specifically about MIMAF, it's true, minerals mined are free. The dumb part about that that people are really trying to get at isn't about he minerals being free, it's about the product value vs the material value. Regardless of how much you value your time, if the minerals are worth 50m and the manufactured product is worth 45m, then it's not worth producing. It;s not that they've undervalued their time, it's that they've undervalued their minerals when they produced the product. If it were all about time, then the best form of mining is incursions and anyone that mines is automatically stupid. But it's a game, and we all choose what we do based on whatever metrics of preference we want.
The risk is that all the effort I put into stalking said target is going to be wasted. I could alienate the people in my fleet by consistently providing no content, therefore losing popularity and no longer getting the minimum needed people to run a fleet, then I can never gank again.
It's a pretty big risk, sorry that someone whose never run a freighter fleet before couldn't see it.
Ganking is the risk imposed on people hauling waaaay too much than they should.
I've both antiganked and ganked, ran fleets and provided every role in every situation.
Ganking is the seizing of an opportunity, if haulers played intelligently ganking wouldn't exist. period. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 20:39:27 -
[305] - Quote
And yet... it's risk/reward balance is out. It either need less reward or more risk. Nothing you say will change my opinion on that, so perhaps we need to agree to disagree.
Edit: Oh and consider the difference in risk/reward vs AGs. AGs get basically nothing and frequently risk more expensive ships. It's why it's so disorganised, because most people with sense are doing something worthwhile.
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Mag's
the united
19870
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 21:01:00 -
[306] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:And yet... it's risk/reward balance is out. And yet you're just a grunt and don't really know that. But hey, you have your opinion don't you. That's good enough for you.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 21:15:31 -
[307] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:And yet... it's risk/reward balance is out. And yet you're just a grunt and don't really know that. But hey, you have your opinion don't you. That's good enough for you. lol, we all have opinions, and your point is? I make mine based on the experience I have. It seems a lot of the CODE crowd base theirs on "WAAAH, I DON'T WANT TO MAKE LESS ISK!". The fact that I opt to be a grunt these days doesn't mean my opinion holds any less value. Regardless, CCP will make the decisions. I'm eagerly awaiting the inevitable wardec changes almost entirely for the some of the other carebear PvPers tears.
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Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
426
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 21:18:54 -
[308] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Mag's wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:And yet... it's risk/reward balance is out. And yet you're just a grunt and don't really know that. But hey, you have your opinion don't you. That's good enough for you. lol, we all have opinions, and your point is? I make mine based on the experience I have. It seems a lot of the CODE crowd base theirs on "WAAAH, I DON'T WANT TO MAKE LESS ISK!". The fact that I opt to be a grunt these days doesn't mean my opinion holds any less value. Regardless, CCP will make the decisions. I'm eagerly awaiting the inevitable wardec changes almost entirely for the some of the other carebear PvPers tears.
^^^^HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
My sides are in orbit!
|
Mag's
the united
19870
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 21:21:44 -
[309] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:You still do not acknowledge that standard gank fleets haven't been profitable for weeks. I'm just a grunt these days, I don't have anything to do with the profit, You have your opinion and can tell us about risk/reward balance. I'm sure that's great for you, just saying.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
105
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 21:41:15 -
[310] - Quote
Friend, I already refuted your point that standard code and miniluv gank fleets operate in losses and have for a while. If you don't know this then you really aren't a ganker. |
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Bellatrix Invicta
New Order Logistics CODE.
130
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 21:51:30 -
[311] - Quote
244k in wallet because ganking is expensive.
Wait I mean ganking is free.
If you think you've won, think again.
The CODE always wins.
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 22:01:34 -
[312] - Quote
Globby wrote:Friend, I already refuted your point that standard code and miniluv gank fleets operate in losses and have for a while. If you don't know this then you really aren't a ganker.
It's been pretty standard in eve's history that a lot of small, cheap ships should be able to kill single big, fat and expensive ships. Mate, you refuted nothing. I stated an opinion, you stated and opinion, that's all. I understand exactly where you're coming from, carebear.
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Renegade Heart
Carebear Miners R Us
510
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 22:12:12 -
[313] - Quote
It doesn't really matter if the standard CODE gank fleets are profitable or not. If it's fun doing it then it's all good. If more fun would be had doing profitable ganks, then do that instead?
Profitable ganking is certainly possible. I don't really understand what you two are arguing about. Are these tears? |
Mag's
the united
19872
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 22:16:02 -
[314] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:I see some of the usual troll crowd are waking up. "We can't defeat him with fact so let's just shiptoast until the thread dies". Good show. One thing is true for sure, you're always good for irony.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13764
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 22:18:22 -
[315] - Quote
ITT: Lucas spends the last three pages proving that he doesn't actually play the game anymore since they banned ISBotter mining fleets.
Turns out, neither the Goons gankers nor the CODE gankers have ever seen you gank a damn thing. And one of those groups has your API, to boot.
"Yeah I totally gank guys, you can believe me, but I want ganking banned even though I totally gank a lot."
I've heard better lies from my four year old.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
123
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 22:38:31 -
[316] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:ITT: Lucas spends the last three pages proving that he doesn't actually play the game anymore since they banned ISBotter mining fleets.
Turns out, neither the Goons gankers nor the CODE gankers have ever seen you gank a damn thing. And one of those groups has your API, to boot.
"Yeah I totally gank guys, you can believe me, but I want ganking banned even though I totally gank a lot."
I've heard better lies from my four year old.
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1380
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 01:48:25 -
[317] - Quote
Renegade Heart wrote:It doesn't really matter if the standard CODE gank fleets are profitable or not. If it's fun doing it then it's all good. If more fun would be had doing profitable ganks, then do that instead?
It doesn't matter, they will cry anyway.
If it is profitable: "Ganking is unbalanced and too easy, we should nerf ganking to add more risk and stuff because it's just too much ISK... and new players quit because they lose 10bil ISK Freighters! think of the children!"
If it is not profitable: "They just gank to make people cry! Ganking for profit is ok but if you don't earn ISK it's just harassment! They make new players quit!! Will someone think of the children!!!"
Usually you find both arguments in a nerf-ganking thread side by side. Obviously they just want to remove ganking from highsec. The one last nerf thing is just a lie.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 06:54:18 -
[318] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:ITT: Lucas spends the last three pages proving that he doesn't actually play the game anymore since they banned ISBotter mining fleets.
Turns out, neither the Goons gankers nor the CODE gankers have ever seen you gank a damn thing. And one of those groups has your API, to boot.
"Yeah I totally gank guys, you can believe me, but I want ganking banned even though I totally gank a lot."
I've heard better lies from my four year old. You guys are just terribad at intel. It's all good.
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Seraph IX Basarab
Angry Dragons Black Legion.
684
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 08:00:31 -
[319] - Quote
Sounds to me like you're full of **** Lucas.
House of Black and White
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Jethro Amar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 08:11:14 -
[320] - Quote
The only change I'd like to see is for concord to "arrest" the pod after action and transport it to nearest lowsec concord station. It doesn't make any real change for the gank itself, but it forces the gankers to play the game and interact with others instead of just "undock, warp, f1". It would force gankers to move through lowsec and hisec to their ganking system and give other players an opportunity to engage. Of course their medical clones would be moved to same lowsec station to avoid podexpress.
what gankers demand from haulers and miners is to scout ahead, be careful and interact. I'm sure they won't mind being held to the same standards as the carebears. |
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1153
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 08:15:24 -
[321] - Quote
Jethro Amar wrote:The only change I'd like to see is for concord to "arrest" the pod after action and transport it to nearest lowsec concord station. It doesn't make any real change for the gank itself, but it forces the gankers to play the game and interact with others instead of just "undock, warp, f1". It would force gankers to move through lowsec and hisec to their ganking system and give other players an opportunity to engage. Of course their medical clones would be moved to same lowsec station to avoid podexpress.
thats a silly idea on a system which does not give you the chance to evade concord, maybe if concord chased you and you could run but not with the current system, "give other players a chance to engage" like you mean engage a pod or a shuttle?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Jethro Amar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 08:27:18 -
[322] - Quote
Gankers dont mind engaging pods, shuttles or unarmed mining barges when it's them doing the shooting and someone else doing the dying, right? As it is ganking is probably the least demanding job in eve - by design it's 20 seconds action followed by 15 minutes of ship spinning. It's actually more afk than afk mining as you don't even need to change roids. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1382
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 08:29:25 -
[323] - Quote
Jethro Amar wrote:The only change I'd like to see is for concord to "arrest" the pod after action and transport it to nearest lowsec concord station. It doesn't make any real change for the gank itself, but it forces the gankers to play the game and interact with others instead of just "undock, warp, f1". It would force gankers to move through lowsec and hisec to their ganking system and give other players an opportunity to engage. Of course their medical clones would be moved to same lowsec station to avoid podexpress.
what gankers demand from haulers and miners is to scout ahead, be careful and interact. I'm sure they won't mind being held to the same standards as the carebears. You know that everyone can shoot us at any time even in Highsec because we are -10? What do you think would change if we had to stage in Lowsec? Nothing?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1378
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 08:37:49 -
[324] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Jethro Amar wrote:The only change I'd like to see is for concord to "arrest" the pod after action and transport it to nearest lowsec concord station. It doesn't make any real change for the gank itself, but it forces the gankers to play the game and interact with others instead of just "undock, warp, f1". It would force gankers to move through lowsec and hisec to their ganking system and give other players an opportunity to engage. Of course their medical clones would be moved to same lowsec station to avoid podexpress.
what gankers demand from haulers and miners is to scout ahead, be careful and interact. I'm sure they won't mind being held to the same standards as the carebears. You know that everyone can shoot us at any time even in Highsec because we are -10? What do you think would change if we had to stage in Lowsec? Nothing? Well you would be a total of 1 jump over I guess after each gank... surely that means lowsec people would stop you... I mean if you had to go to lowsec we could blame somebody else for not stopping you instead of ourselves (the people whining)
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1250
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 08:45:50 -
[325] - Quote
Jethro Amar wrote:Gankers dont mind engaging pods, shuttles or unarmed mining barges when it's them doing the shooting and someone else doing the dying, right? How satisfying do you think it would be to pod an empty clone in lowsec and how much of an effect do you think that would really have on the gankers in the tiny fraction of cases where that happened?
Most gankers are -10 anyways - highsec is lowsec to them already. Worse in fact, as there are NPCs chasing them in addition to players. If you want them to "die" there are no NPC-enforced game mechanics standing in your way. Shoot to kill!
Jethro Amar wrote:As it is ganking is probably the least demanding job in eve - by design it's 20 seconds action followed by 15 minutes of ship spinning. It's actually more afk than afk mining as you don't even need to change roids. Spoken like someone who has never ganked, or perhaps only as a grunt in a fleet. Ganking is just ship combat, and like most of ship combat in Eve it consists of locking a target and pressing F1 for the grunt. Most of the effort is shouldered up the chain of command with the FC and the scouts looking for and tackling targets. It's just like any fleet battle in Eve except there is an ever-vigilant group of NPCs shadowing the fleet.
It's elite PvP through-and-through.
|
Jethro Amar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 09:52:24 -
[326] - Quote
They are allowed to shoot you but they can't really do it if they only have 20seconds.
for example, if a freighter could undock from jita, enter a "special warp" after 20 seconds and arrive in amarr station after 20 minutes you would scream bloody murder about how "op" hauling is and how they cannot possibly be engaged. Yet that's exactly what gankers do. Undock for 20 seconds in a ship that is already dead - the window of vulnerability is almost nonexistent. By removing you from Uedama after every gank I would give the antigankers a chance to engage you before the gank.
Dont get me wrong, i wholeheartedly approve of ganking and James in particular. However i do believe ganking and awoxing is not at it's best right now. Ganking should be made easier on ehp side of the equation but harder on the mechanics. 1. You dont need to find targets - just sit in uedama and freighters have to come to you. 2. You dont need to be ready for quick engagement and focused, as the bumping machariel will provide enough time to ptepare for gank. Bumping a freighter for an hour while the fleet is logging onto their ganking alts is a rubbish idea. 3. You cannot be attacked. By definition your ships are already lost when you undock and the catalysts would have to be destroyed within seconds of landing on grid - nearly impossible task. The only ship that's actually exposed is the bumper in a fast, brick tanked battleship, itself protected by concord. 4. You can do it with no consequences whatsoever. Throwaway alt with minimal sp. Untraceable to your main account and itself worthless, there is no risk to ganking 5. The existing crime prevention mechanics do not work against gankers. Security status does nothing against characters that only undock for 20seconds at a time. Same with killrights. 15 minutes criminal timer slows you down, but the next target can be held by the bumper long enough for it to be irrelevant. however, if somebody tried to retaliate by attacking the bumper they get a killright themselves. Killrights are huge for anybody who isn't a ganking alt, as they make flying anything larger than a catalyst impossible for a whole freaking month. 6. Any ship that could be used against the gankers effectively is itself even better target for ganks than the freighter. Anything with targeting resolution good enough to make a difference has hp low enough to be easily killable by the catalysts and/or is expensive.
my ideas are to change the mechanics so that gankers must make some meaningful decisions. Mostly: ganking an empty target should mean missing the full freighter that flies past 5 minutes later. 1. Make more hisec connections between empires. Force gankers to scout and seek targets. More radical: allow freighters to jump to gates like jf would jump to cynos so that they can scout and avoid an obvious trap like uedama. This should be balanced towards avoiding ganks and not faster travel. 2. Fix the bumping. If the gankers aren't ready to attack at a moments notice the target escapes. No bumping for hours. 3. Fix the bumper. It's ridiculous that the bumper is protected by concord. I'd add a ticket option that would apply a killright to the bumper if the bumping resulted in a gank. Let's see how eager they will be to undock those machariels without concord protection. 4. Teleport pods out into lowsec so that they have to travel like everyone else. Make them attackable before the gank happens. 5. Criminal flag should last progressively longer the more one ganks. We have space aids, lets add space syphilis for ganking. 6. Add expensive implants that slow concord response. This will create a variable in ganking equation and some level of risk. Losing catalyst does not constitute risk, as it is already accounted for in the gank. This will also make ganking easier. |
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1380
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 09:58:17 -
[327] - Quote
Jethro Amar wrote:They are allowed to shoot you but they can't really do it if they only have 20seconds.
for example, if a freighter could undock from jita, enter a "special warp" after 20 seconds and arrive in amarr station after 20 minutes you would scream bloody murder about how "op" hauling is and how they cannot possibly be engaged. Yet that's exactly what gankers do. Undock for 20 seconds in a ship that is already dead - the window of vulnerability is almost nonexistent. By removing you from Uedama after every gank I would give the antigankers a chance to engage you before the gank.
the nearest system is 1 jump. good luck catching their shuttles coming back...
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
|
Jethro Amar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 10:10:13 -
[328] - Quote
What i meant was the nearest lowsec concord "prison" station, not just any lowsec. By the way, that 1 jump to uedama could be very hard to get through if somebody decided to put a few instalocking svipuls there. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1153
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 10:10:26 -
[329] - Quote
Jethro Amar wrote:They are allowed to shoot you but they can't really do it if they only have 20seconds.
thats not the gankers problem, get gud
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1153
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 10:13:01 -
[330] - Quote
Jethro Amar wrote:What i meant was the nearest lowsec concord "prison" station, not just any lowsec. By the way, that 1 jump to uedama could be very hard to get through if somebody decided to put a few instalocking svipuls there.
so really you just want to camp a gate and kill shuttles and pods
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Jethro Amar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 10:20:04 -
[331] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Jethro Amar wrote:What i meant was the nearest lowsec concord "prison" station, not just any lowsec. By the way, that 1 jump to uedama could be very hard to get through if somebody decided to put a few instalocking svipuls there. so really you just want to camp a gate and kill shuttles and pods Somehow you shooting pods is elite pvp while antigankers shooting pods is not? camping a gate and shooting unarmed ships is exactly what gankers do.
By the way, i live in nullsec and haven't been doing anything in hisec since new year or so. I have no horse in this race. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1153
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 10:24:58 -
[332] - Quote
live in nullsec also so we both horseless
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1381
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 10:36:49 -
[333] - Quote
Jethro Amar wrote:What i meant was the nearest lowsec concord "prison" station, not just any lowsec. By the way, that 1 jump to uedama could be very hard to get through if somebody decided to put a few instalocking svipuls there. pods don't get insta locked before warping... shuttles rarely do then the pod still escapes
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1383
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 10:43:31 -
[334] - Quote
Jethro Amar wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Jethro Amar wrote:What i meant was the nearest lowsec concord "prison" station, not just any lowsec. By the way, that 1 jump to uedama could be very hard to get through if somebody decided to put a few instalocking svipuls there. so really you just want to camp a gate and kill shuttles and pods Somehow you shooting pods is elite pvp while antigankers shooting pods is not? camping a gate and shooting unarmed ships is exactly what gankers do. By the way, i live in nullsec and haven't been doing anything in hisec since new year or so. I have no horse in this race. If you can't catch the pods in Highsec, what makes you think you will be able to kill them in lowsec?
Also lol at your idea that anti-gankers somehow would camp a gate. You do realize that CONCORD will not protect you there and that we are indeed capable of flying something other than gank Catalysts?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 11:13:38 -
[335] - Quote
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:Sounds to me like you're full of **** Lucas. *shrug*
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
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Posted - 2015.07.23 11:14:47 -
[336] - Quote
Jethro Amar wrote:it forces the gankers to play the game and interact with others instead of just "undock, warp, f1". Don't be silly. That would mean they need skilled players and not just F1 monkeys following orders.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1251
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 11:16:05 -
[337] - Quote
Jethro Amar wrote:They are allowed to shoot you but they can't really do it if they only have 20seconds.
for example, if a freighter could undock from jita, enter a "special warp" after 20 seconds and arrive in amarr station after 20 minutes you would scream bloody murder about how "op" hauling is and how they cannot possibly be engaged. Yet that's exactly what gankers do. Undock for 20 seconds in a ship that is already dead - the window of vulnerability is almost nonexistent. By removing you from Uedama after every gank I would give the antigankers a chance to engage you before the gank. :) If you made freighters immune to suicide ganking, you would actually break the game, at least the economy side of things. That is primarily why there is ganking in the game, not as a source of "gud fights". If you want "balanced" PvP you should go do some faction warfare or something. Ganking is pure predator vs. prey game play - the hauler wins by getting their goods safely to their destination, not defeating the gankers in some sort of honourable combat.
It's balanced because it is easily avoidable by using numerous strategies and ships CCP has given players to protect themselves. The game for haulers is to decide to spend how much effort to get safely to their destination without sacrificing needlessly time/ISK/effort. The ones that choose wrongly, usually the laziest and greediest of them, are the ones that get caught by the gankers.
Working as designed and intended.
Jethro Amar wrote:1. Make more hisec connections between empires. Force gankers to scout and seek targets. More radical: allow freighters to jump to gates like jf would jump to cynos so that they can scout and avoid an obvious trap like uedama. This should be balanced towards avoiding ganks and not faster travel. 2. Fix the bumping. If the gankers aren't ready to attack at a moments notice the target escapes. No bumping for hours. 3. Fix the bumper. It's ridiculous that the bumper is protected by concord. I'd add a ticket option that would apply a killright to the bumper if the bumping resulted in a gank. Let's see how eager they will be to undock those machariels without concord protection. 4. Teleport pods out into lowsec so that they have to travel like everyone else. Make them attackable before the gank happens. 5. Criminal flag should last progressively longer the more one ganks. We have space aids, lets add space syphilis for ganking. 6. Add expensive implants that slow concord response. This will create a variable in ganking equation and some level of risk. Losing catalyst does not constitute risk, as it is already accounted for in the gank. This will also make ganking easier.
1. The choke points are there on purpose. Haulers have to balance the length of the route vs the safety of the route. How does removing that choice make hauler game play any more interesting? And why is this even a problem in the first place? If you just homogenize routes ganking will just become more random - haulers will never know where the gankers are. At least now they can avoid Uedama if they want and take the long route, or just scout when they are around the single choke point.
2. Bumping is easily avoidable. If you don't want to be bumped bring an escort or fly a T2 hauler. Again, you are just removing any decisions to be made on the side of the hauler. Bumping is the freighter's primary weakness, and they become even more overpowered if you make them safe from bumping. You would almost never see anything else but AFK freighters silently plying the trade lanes with that change.
3. Probably just as eager as that freighter pilot to undock without CONCORD protection, that is to say not very. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Why should only freighter pilots benefit from the ease that CONCORD provides people operating in highsec? Because you don't like gankers? But really, this is impossible to code. There is no way flagging bumpers will be 100% reliable and the bad guys are going to find some way to get a kill right on some poor shmuck who bumped into them on the Jita undock. Never going to happen - too much risk of tears.
4. This will have no effect on anything. Gankers will just set their home station to their staging station and death clone back or take gates hoping to be shot and helped along. And even if they are caught they suffer no loss now that clone costs are gone.
5. Increasing the amount of time a player cannot do anything does not engaging gameplay make. If you want to effectively make ganking impossible and hauling perfectly safe, then please just lock out aggressive actions or something so gankers can go do something else in the game than sit bored in a station.
6. The only non-stinker of an idea here. Making CONCORD response times less predictable, and subject to player influence could be interesting. Perhaps deployables that can be attacked and defended that increase or decrease CONCORD response time slightly, or just more randomness in general. That would make ganking less a numbers game, but this would also put some more risk on haulers and miners who might lose a ship to a brave, but lucky ganker playing the odds if CONCORD takes an abnormally long time to show up.
The problem is balancing it so that it isn't too much of a buff to gankers in the absence of an opposition, as most of the time there is not a significant and/or competent force to oppose suicide gankers.
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1382
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 11:18:26 -
[338] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Jethro Amar wrote:it forces the gankers to play the game and interact with others instead of just "undock, warp, f1". Don't be silly. That would mean they need skilled players and not just F1 monkeys following orders. quoted for the irony of a space monkey making this statement
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Xeno Szenn
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 11:26:46 -
[339] - Quote
What's wrong with having a lot of accounts? And how does it make it bot asspirant. Multiple accounts are useful for many things.
My Thoughts and Views on eve http://xenoszenn.blogspot.com/
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 11:28:23 -
[340] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:as most of the time there is not a significant and/or competent force to oppose suicide gankers. See!
Why is there no real opposition? Because Antiganking is a lot of effort for no reward in ships that actually cost an amount people don't want to lose. Meanwhile, ganking is pretty easy, done in cheap ships and in general is pretty rewarding. There should be more opportunities for counters and counter-counters and counter-counter-counters, and ganking should have to field enough to make it worthwhile for antigankers to put some effort and skill into doing it.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 11:30:06 -
[341] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Jethro Amar wrote:it forces the gankers to play the game and interact with others instead of just "undock, warp, f1". Don't be silly. That would mean they need skilled players and not just F1 monkeys following orders. quoted for the irony of a space monkey making this statement :D Don't worry, I see the irony. I'm no fan of F1 monkey activity which is why I supported changes like the drone assist changes and sov changes. Ideally I'd like to see every activity require every participant to think for themselves, but we're a long way off of that.
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1382
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Posted - 2015.07.23 11:31:06 -
[342] - Quote
Xeno Szenn wrote:What's wrong with having a lot of accounts? And how does it make it bot asspirant. Multiple accounts are useful for many things. The only guy I know with more alt's then me
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 12:22:56 -
[343] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Xeno Szenn wrote:What's wrong with having a lot of accounts? And how does it make it bot asspirant. Multiple accounts are useful for many things. The only guy I know with more alt's then me How many accounts is too many? I have 16 active at the mo.
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1382
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 12:50:58 -
[344] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Xeno Szenn wrote:What's wrong with having a lot of accounts? And how does it make it bot asspirant. Multiple accounts are useful for many things. The only guy I know with more alt's then me How many accounts is too many? I have 16 active at the mo. I'm confused by your comment here. Why was it made and why does it assume that i think any number is too many?
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 13:09:57 -
[345] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Xeno Szenn wrote:What's wrong with having a lot of accounts? And how does it make it bot asspirant. Multiple accounts are useful for many things. The only guy I know with more alt's then me How many accounts is too many? I have 16 active at the mo. I'm confused by your comment here. Why was it made and why does it assume that i think any number is too many? Lol? Same could be said for the original comment and response. Why did he say "what's wrong with having a lot of accounts", then why did you make a point of him having more than you? That prompted me to wonder, "what's 'too many'". You need to calm down fella.
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1382
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 13:34:57 -
[346] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Xeno Szenn wrote:What's wrong with having a lot of accounts? And how does it make it bot asspirant. Multiple accounts are useful for many things. The only guy I know with more alt's then me How many accounts is too many? I have 16 active at the mo. I'm confused by your comment here. Why was it made and why does it assume that i think any number is too many? Lol? Same could be said for the original comment and response. Why did he say "what's wrong with having a lot of accounts", then why did you make a point of him having more than you? That prompted me to wonder, "what's 'too many'". You need to calm down fella. He is a friend in game who never posts here I was saying hi pretty much
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 13:45:58 -
[347] - Quote
I see, still no need to get so hostile :p My humblest apologies for responding to posts in a public thread. /bow
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1698
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 13:46:13 -
[348] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Black Pedro wrote:as most of the time there is not a significant and/or competent force to oppose suicide gankers. See! Why is there no real opposition? Because Antiganking is a lot of effort for no reward in ships that actually cost an amount people don't want to lose. Meanwhile, ganking is pretty easy, done in cheap ships and in general is pretty rewarding. There should be more opportunities for counters and counter-counters and counter-counter-counters, and ganking should have to field enough to make it worthwhile for antigankers to put some effort and skill into doing it.
Whilst this is true, it's also demonstrates the paradox. The highsec ruleset DEMANDS they use worthless ships.
Throwaway ships are required because of guaranteed loss. If you make them NEED better ships, ships worth shooting, you also then need to leash concord.
Or you find a way to make the bounty system simultaneously pay more, but not be exploitable via alts. Good luck there. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1157
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 13:49:53 -
[349] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Black Pedro wrote:as most of the time there is not a significant and/or competent force to oppose suicide gankers. See! Why is there no real opposition? Because Antiganking is a lot of effort for no reward in ships that actually cost an amount people don't want to lose. Meanwhile, ganking is pretty easy, done in cheap ships and in general is pretty rewarding. There should be more opportunities for counters and counter-counters and counter-counter-counters, and ganking should have to field enough to make it worthwhile for antigankers to put some effort and skill into doing it.
because carebears dont want to pay for protection because it affects the amount of isk they earn, i dont make any isk when doing pvp so whats your point?
if im moving a capital or a marauder around lowsec/null, i always have a cyno with support on standby, nothing stopping carebears from having support
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1698
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 13:54:26 -
[350] - Quote
Escorts are a) worse than mining for boredom and b) utterly garbage in high sec because you can't shoot first (i.e. you can't kill the warp in alt, or the scanners).
There is no amount of isk going that would make me escort in high sec. Don't need to escort in low/null because we use JFs.
/shrug |
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1159
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Posted - 2015.07.23 13:59:19 -
[351] - Quote
you cant fit fitted battleships and carriers in jf's and not everyone has a jf so scouting for others in null is a thing.
you cant shoot first? gankers are -10 they are shoot on site everywhere
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
127
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:01:48 -
[352] - Quote
What is it with the assumption of ganking being easier than say, a null engagement? Both sides are effectively just F1-ing on broadcasts. If you get shot you broadcast. No fleet combat is hard or 'engaging' like you say ganking should be, so why should ganking be singled out by your posts by a large margin when it's less than 1% of fleet combat out there? Sounds like an excuse for personal reasons to me imo. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1254
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:04:04 -
[353] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Black Pedro wrote:as most of the time there is not a significant and/or competent force to oppose suicide gankers. See! Why is there no real opposition? Because Antiganking is a lot of effort for no reward in ships that actually cost an amount people don't want to lose. Meanwhile, ganking is pretty easy, done in cheap ships and in general is pretty rewarding. There should be more opportunities for counters and counter-counters and counter-counter-counters, and ganking should have to field enough to make it worthwhile for antigankers to put some effort and skill into doing it. because carebears dont want to pay for protection because it affects the amount of isk they earn, i dont make any isk when doing pvp so whats your point? if im moving a capital or a marauder around lowsec/null, i always have a cyno with support on standby, nothing stopping carebears from having support Yup. Escorts are boring, but a necessary cost if you want to move your stuff safely. If you don't want to bring escorts or can't convince someone to do it (i.e. you have no friends) then use a hauling ship that doesn't need them or outsource your hauling to someone who will spend the effort to defend your stuff.
That is the game for haulers. Trade-offs and all that. If you don't like the choices on offer, choose another profession.
Let's take the time (again) to reflect on the words of a CCP developer who made it quite clear what haulers are expected to do by the designers of this game:
CCP Falcon wrote:Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec?
CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive.
If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.
Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back.
:) |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1698
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:06:47 -
[354] - Quote
Did you miss the pertinent part? You cant shoot the neutral guys assisting.
So right this second I flew past a code neutral warp in alt ("Hi Perry Rodent!!!") in his venture, could I shoot him if I felt threatened as an escorter? Or shoot him as I KNOW he presents a threat? No, I cannot. Because high sec rules hilariously prevent it as he is lurking in an NPC corp (ironic, for a code alt).
Escorting is a joke in high sec beyond a webbing EAF, maybe logi for the armor freighters but even that's a bit of a nonsense. That's it. Nothing else is worth a damn. I would never do it, no-one I know would do it. It's far easier and simler to just not expose yourself in the first place.
The limit to "escorting" in highsec is someone webbing you.
Scouting is a thing in a fleet, I think you know that is different though.
Edit: I should probably be clear, there is nothing can be done about this, it is simply the reality.
Edit2: And whilst I'm on the topic, lets not pretend that all gankers are -10. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13769
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:19:29 -
[355] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Did you miss the pertinent part? You cant shoot the neutral guys assisting.
You absolutely can, you just don't want to deal with the consequences the gankers deal with.
That should tell you something, but I'd bet cash money that it won't.
Quote: So right this second I flew past a code neutral warp in alt ("Hi Perry Rodent!!!") in his venture, could I shoot him if I felt threatened as an escorter? Or shoot him as I KNOW he presents a threat? No, I cannot.
Once again, yes, you can. You just don't want to accept the consequences of doing so.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1161
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:20:08 -
[356] - Quote
scouting is a thing in a fleet? i move around alot solo and have my own scout so im not bothering anyone else to scout my vargur to a 10/10 8 jumps away, that scout will also light me a covert cyno if i need it.
that char will also move around and provide cynos for my carrier, thats nothing to do with fleets its my personal scout
having your own scout in nullsec is pretty essential if you plan living there
yeah escorting is a joke but so is structure grinding and cloaky camping, if i was moving 10bil worth of cargo i sure as hell aint moving that without some sort of support but hey thats just me.
i remember having to log off in a hostile system after losing a battle and only a couple of us survived, corp wouldnt let me log in till they had secured an escort fleet to get it back home safely, might be boring but you do what you gotta do to protect the assets of you and your friends.
as for the neutral in a venture, no you cant shoot him but you can shoot the gankers that warp to him or you could bring a ceptor or cheap frig to shoot the venture, and this will also bring concord to the gate.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1255
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:24:01 -
[357] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Did you miss the pertinent part? You cant shoot the neutral guys assisting. Gankers manage to shoot neutrals. I think what you meant to say is that you do not want to shoot the neutrals (the bumpers/scouts) because you do not want to suffer the consequences of that action. I guess criminals do suffer consequences for their actions after all.
afkalt wrote: So right this second I flew past a code neutral warp in alt ("Hi Perry Rodent!!!") in his venture, could I shoot him if I felt threatened as an escorter? Or shoot him as I KNOW he presents a threat? No, I cannot. Because high sec rules hilariously prevent it as he is lurking in an NPC corp (ironic, for a code alt).
Escorting is a joke in high sec beyond a webbing EAF, maybe logi for the armor freighters but even that's a bit of a nonsense. That's it. Nothing else is worth a damn. I would never do it, no-one I know would do it. It's far easier and simler to just not expose yourself in the first place.
The limit to "escorting" in highsec is someone webbing you.
Scouting is a thing in a fleet, I think you know that is different though.
Edit: I should probably be clear, there is nothing can be done about this, it is simply the reality.
There is plenty you can do. You just choose not to pay the cost. A small fleet of logi and quick-locking DPS/ECM can save any freighter and a single webber eliminates 99%+ of the risk of getting bumped in the first place. This has been hashed and rehashed so many times it isn't necessary again, but the main point is that haulers are suppose to be at risk. There are plenty of actions and behaviours you can take to mitigate those risks but CCP has chosen not to give you an I-get-out-of-PvP card to guarantee your safety. That is by design to keep players feeling uncertain and follows the nowhere-is-safe design of the game.
Almost every freighter makes it safely to its destination in highsec. A few unlucky/foolish ones are going to explode, but statically, it is an insignificant fraction. A good hauler uses the tools available to increase the chance of being in that first group, but also plans for the chance they end up in the second, more exploded group - don't fly what you can't afford to lose and all.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1698
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:37:43 -
[358] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:afkalt wrote:Did you miss the pertinent part? You cant shoot the neutral guys assisting. Gankers manage to shoot neutrals. I think what you meant to say is that you do not want to shoot the neutrals (the bumpers/scouts) because you do not want to suffer the consequences of that action. I guess criminals do suffer consequences for their actions after all.
You know perfectly well that an actual escort isn't some half arsed throwaway gank catalyst. Yes, taking a fleet of suicide ships is completely how people escort
Look, I never said there were not things you can do to not die, I said that escorting is a joke beyond webbing and we all know that, this is the reality.
I don't know how you all missed it, probably too busy frothing at the mouth about freighter ganking and leaping to defend it when a) I never attacked it here and b) the argument was that escorting, beyond webs is POINTLESS.
Because it is. You know it, I know it and the haulers know it.
Once again, since you all seemed to miss it the first time:
It's far easier and simpler to just not expose yourself in the first place. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
130
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:48:26 -
[359] - Quote
Let's just say a lot of people (95%) don't take the basic precautions that could prevent 99% of losses.
The hauling profession is filled with arrogant entitlement, such as having five freighter alts and not a single webber, then complaining about losing three of them to ganks in the same day. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1255
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:55:30 -
[360] - Quote
afkalt wrote:You know perfectly well that an actual escort isn't some half arsed throwaway gank catalyst. Yes, taking a fleet of suicide ships is completely how people escort I do. But they really should if they want to significantly improve the chance of a valuable shipment arriving. There is nothing stopping them.
Eve has rules like any game and if you want to win, you should use them all to your advantage. Choosing not to use some strategies or techniques for whatever reason may make you feel good, but you are still at a disadvantage to the players who use them. And if you tie one hand behind your back you really can't then complain when you lose to them.
afkalt wrote:Look, I never said there were not things you can do to not die, I said that escorting is a joke beyond webbing and we all know that, this is the reality.
I don't know how you all missed it, probably too busy frothing at the mouth about freighter ganking and leaping to defend it when a) I never attacked it here and b) the argument was that escorting, beyond webs is POINTLESS.
Because it is. You know it, I know it and the haulers know it. Well then just web then. But CCP Falcon is not wrong though. If something is that important to you, you should bring a big enough fleet to counter all the risks. If it isn't important enough, well then you are balancing the odds that someone will catch you and destroy you vs the costs of such a escort. Most of the time you will win. Occasionally you will explode. That is the game for haulers.
afkalt wrote:Once again, since you all seemed to miss it the first time:
It's far easier and simpler to just not expose yourself in the first place. That is a perfectly viable strategy to avoid the predators. Too bad more haulers don't use that strategy but rather prefer the lose-my-10B-ISK-Freighter-while-AFK-and-then-whine-about-it-on-the-forums stratagem. |
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1386
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:58:51 -
[361] - Quote
afkalt wrote: So right this second I flew past a code neutral warp in alt ("Hi Perry Rodent!!!") in his venture, could I shoot him if I felt threatened as an escorter? Or shoot him as I KNOW he presents a threat? No, I cannot. Because high sec rules hilariously prevent it as he is lurking in an NPC corp (ironic, for a code alt).
Funny coming from an NPC forum alt
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
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Posted - 2015.07.23 15:01:18 -
[362] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Whilst this is true, it's also demonstrates the paradox. The highsec ruleset DEMANDS they use worthless ships.
Throwaway ships are required because of guaranteed loss. If you make them NEED better ships, ships worth shooting, you also then need to leash concord.
Or you find a way to make the bounty system simultaneously pay more, but not be exploitable via alts. Good luck there. Yeah, no argument it's a tough question, but still one I hope they find an answer to. I'd love for anti-gankers to be a relevant counter which gankers have to react to as it happens.
Lan Wang wrote:you cant fit fitted battleships and carriers in jf's and not everyone has a jf so scouting for others in null is a thing.
you cant shoot first? gankers are -10 they are shoot on site everywhere By the time the actual gankers appear its a little late to shoot them, and you can't shoot the bumpers and scouts because they are protected by concord because they are carebears themselves.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
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Posted - 2015.07.23 15:02:41 -
[363] - Quote
Globby wrote:What is it with the assumption of ganking being easier than say, a null engagement? Both sides are effectively just F1-ing on broadcasts. If you get shot you broadcast. No fleet combat is hard or 'engaging' like you say ganking should be, so why should ganking be singled out by your posts by a large margin when it's less than 1% of fleet combat out there? Sounds like an excuse for personal reasons to me imo. Where is that assumption? Null engagements are too easy, which is why they are changing the mechanics to make living in null more involving for the individuals.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1161
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Posted - 2015.07.23 15:05:29 -
[364] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Globby wrote:What is it with the assumption of ganking being easier than say, a null engagement? Both sides are effectively just F1-ing on broadcasts. If you get shot you broadcast. No fleet combat is hard or 'engaging' like you say ganking should be, so why should ganking be singled out by your posts by a large margin when it's less than 1% of fleet combat out there? Sounds like an excuse for personal reasons to me imo. Where is that assumption? Null engagements are too easy, which is why they are changing the mechanics to make living in null more involving for the individuals.
anchoring up and hitting f1 to broadcasts will never change in big fleets, all they are fixing is fleet warping which wont change the original anchoring mechanic
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1698
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Posted - 2015.07.23 15:06:57 -
[365] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:afkalt wrote: So right this second I flew past a code neutral warp in alt ("Hi Perry Rodent!!!") in his venture, could I shoot him if I felt threatened as an escorter? Or shoot him as I KNOW he presents a threat? No, I cannot. Because high sec rules hilariously prevent it as he is lurking in an NPC corp (ironic, for a code alt).
Funny coming from an NPC forum alt
It's a valid use of game mechanics, knock yourselves out. I am simply amused no end by the irony of it.
This NPC forum alt is years older than you, deal with it. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 15:12:07 -
[366] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Gankers manage to shoot neutrals. I think what you meant to say is that you do not want to shoot the neutrals (the bumpers/scouts) because you do not want to suffer the consequences of that action. I guess criminals do suffer consequences for their actions after all. Again it comes down to to effort and risk of doing so vs the reward. A bumper is going to be incredibly difficult to get a warp in on and take quite a bit gank and will drop next to nothing. That's simply not balanced well against how easy ganking industrial targets are and their rewarding loot. Both sides of the mechanic need to be reasonable, but they aren't. That's why there's no significant AGs.
Globby wrote:The hauling profession is filled with arrogant entitlement Pot, meet kettle.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1161
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Posted - 2015.07.23 15:13:13 -
[367] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:afkalt wrote:Whilst this is true, it's also demonstrates the paradox. The highsec ruleset DEMANDS they use worthless ships.
Throwaway ships are required because of guaranteed loss. If you make them NEED better ships, ships worth shooting, you also then need to leash concord.
Or you find a way to make the bounty system simultaneously pay more, but not be exploitable via alts. Good luck there. Yeah, no argument it's a tough question, but still one I hope they find an answer to. I'd love for anti-gankers to be a relevant counter which gankers have to react to as it happens. Lan Wang wrote:you cant fit fitted battleships and carriers in jf's and not everyone has a jf so scouting for others in null is a thing.
you cant shoot first? gankers are -10 they are shoot on site everywhere By the time the actual gankers appear its a little late to shoot them, and you can't shoot the bumpers and scouts because they are protected by concord because they are carebears themselves.
you can shoot anyone you just have concequences similar to the gankers, nothing stopping you grabbing a cheap frig or a destroyer to instapop it (this also alerts concord to your location). if you have a fleet on standby with you then its possible to save a freighter and you know it. stop pretending its a dead cause
why do people keep mentioning rewards for anti-gankers? i dont get any rewards for doing pvp so why should anti-gankers?
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
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Posted - 2015.07.23 15:16:13 -
[368] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Where is that assumption? Null engagements are too easy, which is why they are changing the mechanics to make living in null more involving for the individuals. anchoring up and hitting f1 to broadcasts will never change in big fleets, all they are fixing is fleet warping which wont change the original anchoring mechanic and the fleet warp affects everyone They've said multiple times they aim to get rid of a lot of that. It's why sov mechanics now require activity in the space, it's why structure grinding is going and it's why multiple systems get involved in sov takeovers, it's about splitting people out so that more people have to actually play the game.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1161
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Posted - 2015.07.23 15:21:35 -
[369] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Where is that assumption? Null engagements are too easy, which is why they are changing the mechanics to make living in null more involving for the individuals. anchoring up and hitting f1 to broadcasts will never change in big fleets, all they are fixing is fleet warping which wont change the original anchoring mechanic and the fleet warp affects everyone They've said multiple times they aim to get rid of a lot of that. It's why sov mechanics now require activity in the space, it's why structure grinding is going and it's why multiple systems get involved in sov takeovers, it's about splitting people out so that more people have to actually play the game.
so they are going to remove approach and orbit functions?
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
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Posted - 2015.07.23 15:25:12 -
[370] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:you can shoot anyone you just have concequences similar to the gankers, nothing stopping you grabbing a cheap frig or a destroyer to instapop it (this also alerts concord to your location). if you have a fleet on standby with you then its possible to save a freighter and you know it. stop pretending its a dead cause
why do people keep mentioning rewards for anti-gankers? i dont get any rewards for doing pvp so why should anti-gankers? Lol, now I want to see you instapop a macharial with a cheap frig or destroyer.
Mechanics in games are generally challenging and rewarding, and that reward doesn't have to be through items, it can be score, status, enjoyment, etc. Opposed mechanics tend to work similarly and be balanced, so people want to play both sides. The problem with ganking is that it's quite easy and rewards well most of the time through drops. Antiganking requires more effort, generally more isk investment per player and has no matching reward. There's no reason to be an anti-ganker. It's why most AGs are just people butthurt about being killed who have been tricked into thinking that wasting their time pod-expressing gankers is actually a form of retaliation. I'd love to see a real AG force, I just don;t see it happening with the current status quo.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
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Posted - 2015.07.23 15:27:05 -
[371] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Where is that assumption? Null engagements are too easy, which is why they are changing the mechanics to make living in null more involving for the individuals. anchoring up and hitting f1 to broadcasts will never change in big fleets, all they are fixing is fleet warping which wont change the original anchoring mechanic and the fleet warp affects everyone They've said multiple times they aim to get rid of a lot of that. It's why sov mechanics now require activity in the space, it's why structure grinding is going and it's why multiple systems get involved in sov takeovers, it's about splitting people out so that more people have to actually play the game. so they are going to remove approach and orbit functions? Hopefully not. They are just making it so people have to break their fleets down at the moment, but what they do going forward, who know. If you'd asked me last year I'd have said "Of course they won't stop people fleetwarping to gate and bookmarks".
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1698
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 15:27:22 -
[372] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote: and again, the reward is based on what the pilot decides to put in his ship, you cant balance greed
Only partly true.
They're empty |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
130
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Posted - 2015.07.23 16:45:28 -
[373] - Quote
The reward is 100% controlled by the person being ganked. Don't want to support gankers? Haul properly. It's that simple. The risk gankers put forward is directly influenced by how you fit your freighter. Want to increase losses to gankers and decrease the chance you have of dying or being attacked? Fit full tank. You then triple the EHP of your freighter versus anti-tanking it. The risk of being ganked is reduced by more than 95% if you web, regardless of your cargo.
I don't understand why people think ganking is overpowered right now, it's easily stopped, deterred and countered.
It's as difficult as any fleet activity out there, if not more. People saying "it's easy" aren't realizing that nullsec and lowsec pvp is equally easy and mindless, you let people at the top decide who to shoot, when, and whether or not to engage or not.
The people referring to CODE. and Miniluv as 'carebears' even enforces my point. Haulers are so dumb and bad at the game that they're basically regarded as PvE content by anti-gankers themselves. Lol. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1247
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 16:58:34 -
[374] - Quote
I love ganking mission swag boats.
I'm OK w/ ganking freighters (not OK w/ freighter beach ball mechanics - different subject though)
I think the dudes ganking pods on auto pilot are hillarious.
I think ganking mining noobs w/ cats is no skill garbage play.
2 of the above probably don't need adjustment. 2 of them probably do. The OPs silly demands are over the top and not even credible.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
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Posted - 2015.07.23 17:04:57 -
[375] - Quote
Globby wrote:The reward is 100% controlled by the person being ganked. Don't want to support gankers? Haul properly. It's that simple. What you are saying he is that because it's someone else's fault, your reward being unbalanced is fine. On average, income from ganking is too high for the level of effort and risk put in. That's why you guys do it then sit around loling about how much bank you've made.
Globby wrote:The risk gankers put forward is directly influenced by how you fit your freighter. Want to increase losses to gankers and decrease the chance you have of dying or being attacked? Fit full tank. You then triple the EHP of your freighter versus anti-tanking it. It's not reasonably scaled though. Gank ships are ridiculously cheap. Even a max tanked obelisk is still killboard green when empty.
Globby wrote:I don't understand why people think ganking is overpowered right now, it's easily stopped, deterred and countered. Is it? You see AGs showing up and ganking proceeds with them on grid. I certainly don't see it being deterred.
Globby wrote:It's as difficult as any fleet activity out there, if not more. People saying "it's easy" aren't realizing that nullsec and lowsec pvp is equally easy and mindless, you let people at the top decide who to shoot, when, and whether or not to engage or not. Agreed, though it's far more rewarding and they are looking to change those other activities to make them require more individual effort.
Globby wrote:The people referring to CODE. and Miniluv as 'carebears' even enforces my point. Haulers are so dumb and bad at the game that they're basically regarded as PvE content by anti-gankers themselves. Lol. It's not that they are PvE, you're carebears because you hide behind concord (I know, I know, your chars with disposable ships are -10, but your real chars, your bumpers and your haulers putting everything in place aren't) while going after only the weakest of targets and get insanely mad and ludicrously entitled when people suggest nerfs to your playstyle.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
130
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 17:20:03 -
[376] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:What you are saying he is that because it's someone else's fault, your reward being unbalanced is fine. On average, income from ganking is too high for the level of effort and risk put in. That's why you guys do it then sit around loling about how much bank you've made. Like I said, with the current landscape of ganking, CODE. and Miniluv DO NOT PROFIT off of the ganks themselves over the long term. The reward per person per time is less than 100 mil per hour at best. I've literally said this to you three times and you haven't listened. I went through the math in a best case scenario and it's still less than 100 mil per hour, which is less than zero risk incursions.
Lucas Kell wrote:It's not reasonably scaled though. Gank ships are ridiculously cheap. Even a max tanked obelisk is still killboard green when empty. Yes, 35 people in catalysts can kill a fully bulkheaded obelisk in a 0.5 system for roughly 350mil. Why shouldn't having more people give you an advantage? If you only had 15-20 people (the average CODE. fleet) you'd need some brutixes and taloses, bringing the price to well over 600mil. Killboard green/positive is a bad indicator when you aren't in a 1 person ganking situation, because more people should increase the capabilities and efficiencies of a group.
Lucas Kell wrote:Is it? You see AGs showing up and ganking proceeds with them on grid. I certainly don't see it being deterred. That's because AG sucks and has no idea what they're doing. We risk our bling fit macharials to bump all day and they rarely get ganked because of AG's incompetence, and freighters rarely web themselves because of their laziness. AG also shoots wrecks most of the time, bringing in ZERO profit during standard fleets.
Lucas Kell wrote:Agreed, though it's far more rewarding and they are looking to change those other activities to make them require more individual effort. But they haven't yet. Incursions have been mind-numbingly easy 150 mil per hour isk faucets since their introduction (used to be even better, lol.) No one makes a profit when ganking, at best we break even and it compliments our outside income that is fueling our ganking ships.
Lucas Kell wrote:It's not that they are PvE, you're carebears because you hide behind concord while going after only the weakest of targets and get insanely mad and ludicrously entitled when people suggest nerfs to your playstyle. is this real life? you physically cannot bump with a negative 10 character, there is no other option even if we wanted to. sorry friend. The only entitlement is people believing that CCP should make the game harder for us folk who are only able to prey on people who literally are greedy, lazy, or incompetent. Any 'good' group of players can literally ignore us, and easily take us on when we try and gank them.
Nothing stops AG from ganking our blinged out macharials that are risked every single time we want to bump freighters. They're easier and cheaper to gank, require far fewer people and are more 'killboard green' than freighters by far. There are strategies that would hurt CODE. so much, but AG doesn't do them because it's either too much effort for them or not worth it.
*note this applies to standard ganking fleets, not hyperdunking. hyperdunking has it's own weaknesses and challenges. |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2189
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 17:54:36 -
[377] - Quote
I'm weird. I don't gank, but I do like to tickle a mission runner's arse with a feather til they slap me with antimatter. It's a dirty trick. I'm aware of it. What's worse is that it's not a horribly sophisticated trick like they think it is. There's not a falcon blob incoming, no neutral logi coming to give them the unwinnable. It's just me and my little frigate giving them the lance in their 'no place' until they die from it.
I'm a fan of BOTH sides of the equation having to work for their daily bread. I want the gankers to coordinate while doing complex math to figure out how to win what they want. I also want the miners and haulers to do their utmost to prevent this from happening. THAT is content generation.
There's a fundamental disconnect when it comes to the latter group unfortunately. They can take measures to ensure that their evil counterparts gain no satisfaction from them, but they generally opt not to. Laziness, complacency, 'it couldn't happen to me' are all to blame for this. If an equal amount of wit and effort is applied in opposition of the wit and effort employed to do harm, then losses are mitigated.
The simple, sad truth is that those who claim to be 'victims' for the most part simply cannot be arsed to exert the bare minimum amount of effort necessary to minimize their chances of being turned into chunder by those who wish it to happen. The absolute, essential first step in success in the regard for those who are targeted is to realize that the profession that they claim to adhere to is NOT one that is engaged in on a solitary level. Be it mining or hauling, you do not do this crap alone. You need scouts and guards and you need to understand that defense is not measured in EHP or DPS alone.
It's a social game for everyone, and choosing not to interact with others in a manner that is mutually beneficial can result in a solitary individual suffering staggering losses. The worst part is that after the fact they can point the finger wherever they want, but ultimately the blame rests squarely on their own shoulders for failing to do all that they could to prevent that bad thing from happening.
PS: screw the children, they're only good for eating anyways.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Lady Areola Fappington
2642
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Posted - 2015.07.23 17:55:18 -
[378] - Quote
Globby wrote:
Nothing stops AG from ganking our blinged out macharials that are risked every single time we want to bump freighters. They're easier and cheaper to gank, require far fewer people and are more 'killboard green' than freighters by far. There are strategies that would hurt CODE. so much, but AG doesn't do them because it's either too much effort for them or not worth it.
*note this applies to standard ganking fleets, not hyperdunking. hyperdunking has it's own weaknesses and challenges.
This right here.
There is absolutely nothing stopping antigankers from blowing up bumpy machs, scouts for miner ganks, neutral alt haulers for CODE ships. In fact, killing those ships would be one of the most effective ways of hitting the gankers back.
But, the anti-ganker types won't do it. They don't want to "risk their sec status". Now, just sit and think about that for a moment.
Sec status means nothing. It's a number in a database. It's based off of an arbitrary set of game mechanics designed by some Icelandic dudes. Knowing that, the anti-ganker types STILL make a value/morality judgement based on that number.
Their basing a morality judgement on a database number. Not activities. Not decisions a player makes. A database number.
I think that's kind of sad, in a way. I mean, if *I* ran a counter-ganking corp, the FIRST people I'd be looking to recruit are the ones willing to pull the trigger first, before CODE is ready to go. -10 and a killboard full of ganking scout alts, and CODE hauler alts? That dude would be worth his weight in gold. Sadly, he doesn't exist.
Why doesn't he exist? Because the "good guys" are making a values judgement based on an arbitrary database number, and pulling effective counter-gank operations would make that number go into the negative, making the "good guy" a "bad guy".
Just ponder that for a little bit. It's like saying "Hey, Jim is a horrible dude, he has negative rep with the Gallente."
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1385
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:17:27 -
[379] - Quote
Hopefully the gankers don't get too upset (they won't) with the sharing of this 14mil isk ship of which 2 ruin a gank (2 attempts with 2 successes). I also had a single falcon for good measure and warp ins and a claymore boosting but I'm sure the ag crowd can drum up their own support ships or just 2 more of these if needs be
EFT Pic
EFT Fit [Osprey, Rull rep] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Large 'Atonement' Remote Shield Booster Large 'Atonement' Remote Shield Booster Large 'Atonement' Remote Shield Booster Large S95a Remote Shield Booster Medium 'Atonement' Remote Shield Booster
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
don't forget to overheat and if you have non perfect logi skills dull a repper or 2 down to the med versions fit another cap booster and bring more. For Bob sakes warp in at 50km from the freighter and align out AS YOU REP IT. it reps fine from 63km and you really only need to be on field for the amount of time the gankers are. If you can nail their efficiency on how long to be on field for you will be set. Of course if this became a regular thing im sure the gankers would start to counter this approach but as things stand they have no need to because nobody bothers to do anything effective on a semi regular basis.
PS this is a cheap throw away ship but your in highsec so get your pod out
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1164
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 18:21:17 -
[380] - Quote
and how much isk did you make from the 2 successes?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1386
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:25:16 -
[381] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:and how much isk did you make from the 2 successes? actually those pilots were stingy so nothing... actually now that you mention it why did i bother?
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
428
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 18:29:23 -
[382] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:actually now that you mention it why did i bother?
***** meet giggles. |
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1386
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 18:31:47 -
[383] - Quote
Ah I remember now it was revenge. Hmm. Perhaps I need to do up a mail and a video even and send it to future recipients of my good will. Could net a profit
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 18:47:39 -
[384] - Quote
Globby wrote:Like I said, with the current landscape of ganking, CODE. and Miniluv DO NOT PROFIT off of the ganks themselves over the long term. The reward per person per time is less than 100 mil per hour at best. I've literally said this to you three times and you haven't listened. I went through the math in a best case scenario and it's still less than 100 mil per hour, which is less than zero risk incursions. Do you understand what profit is? Less than 100 mil per hour is still more than you are spending, thus it's profit. What you're talking about is opportunity cost. If that's how it goes, then a miner who earns what 20m/hour? He's not making any profit because he could be ganking for more or doing incursions for more than that. Amusingly, even a 20m/hour miner needs to put at least a 20m isk ship and have a 600m ship boosting him somewhere in system.
Globby wrote:Yes, 35 people in catalysts can kill a fully bulkheaded obelisk in a 0.5 system for roughly 350mil. Why shouldn't having more people give you an advantage? If you only had 15-20 people (the average CODE. fleet) you'd need some brutixes and taloses, bringing the price to well over 600mil. Killboard green/positive is a bad indicator when you aren't in a 1 person ganking situation, because more people should increase the capabilities and efficiencies of a group. Of course having more people should give you an advantage, but the scaling of that and the amount of effort those individual players need to put in should be reasonable.
Globby wrote:That's because AG sucks and has no idea what they're doing. We risk our bling fit macharials to bump all day and they rarely get ganked because of AG's incompetence, and freighters rarely web themselves because of their laziness. AG also shoots wrecks most of the time, bringing in ZERO profit during standard fleets. That's my point, AGs suck. Why do they suck? Because anyone with an ounce of sense know that it's too much effort, too low reward, and outside of hyperdunks and light freighter ganks is futile. Feel free to start up a competent AG group if you want to prove me wrong.
Globby wrote:But they haven't yet. Incursions have been mind-numbingly easy 150 mil per hour isk faucets since their introduction (used to be even better, lol.) No one makes a profit when ganking, at best we break even and it compliments our outside income that is fueling our ganking ships. But they are looking at them, and so should ganking be looked at. That's my point there. I'm not saying incursions shouldn't be looked at, I'm not even saying incursions shouldn't be looked at first, but to suggest ganking is A-OK is crazy.
Globby wrote:is this real life? you physically cannot bump with a negative 10 character, there is no other option even if we wanted to. sorry friend. The only entitlement is people believing that CCP should make the game harder for us folk who are only able to prey on people who literally are greedy, lazy, or incompetent. Any 'good' group of players can literally ignore us, and easily take us on when we try and gank them. Of course you can't, but you still choose to use a lot of NPC alts, you still choose to roam highsec. And then you complain when people suggest that some risk should be added to your activities or your income should be reduced. That's being a carebear.
As for entitlement, you're acting just as entitled by believing that CCP should hold the status quo of you earning 5 times more than a miner for less assets on the line. You feel you're entitled to keep your unbalanced mechanics. I tire of hearing the "waah, entitlement" argument at every turn.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
130
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 18:57:26 -
[385] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Do you understand what profit is? Less than 100 mil per hour is still more than you are spending, thus it's profit. What you're talking about is opportunity cost. If that's how it goes, then a miner who earns what 20m/hour? He's not making any profit because he could be ganking for more or doing incursions for more than that. Amusingly, even a 20m/hour miner needs to put at least a 20m isk ship and have a 600m ship boosting him somewhere in system. I literally said best case scenario, where we get full drops, where we have no antiganking shooting wrecks, and we have big freighters coming through at an above average rate. Most of the time, we get below what the cost of ships are, and even if we did come out ahead, splitting it up amongst so many people nets almost nothing. Sorry for your selective reading.
Lucas Kell wrote:Of course having more people should give you an advantage, but the scaling of that and the amount of effort those individual players need to put in should be reasonable. It's as reasonable as any other situation in eve online.
Lucas Kell wrote:That's my point, AGs suck. Why do they suck? Because anyone with an ounce of sense know that it's too much effort, too low reward, and outside of hyperdunks and light freighter ganks is futile. Feel free to start up a competent AG group if you want to prove me wrong. Sorry, I'm not going to play the game for my enemies because they suck. If they were good, they could stop us, which means that the system is working as intended.
Lucas Kell wrote:But they are looking at them, and so should ganking be looked at. That's my point there. I'm not saying incursions shouldn't be looked at, I'm not even saying incursions shouldn't be looked at first, but to suggest ganking is A-OK is crazy. If only you actually listened to the facts about the matter, how is ganking even broken? Give me a concise bullet points list and I will refute them fully. Thank you.
Lucas Kell wrote:Of course you can't, but you still choose to use a lot of NPC alts, you still choose to roam highsec. And then you complain when people suggest that some risk should be added to your activities or your income should be reduced. That's being a carebear. No one is suggesting any methods of risk, in fact there is already a ton of risk in the game already, just because some people can't be arsed to do it because it's not a big enough issue TO be arsed with it is proof that ganking isn't as big and game breaking as you think. Why do you think only two groups gank more than once in a blue moon? How is using a 1.5 billion mach that has a third of the EHP of a max anti-tanked freighter not a risk? we've had machs get ganked before, but people don't do it. It's easier, more isk positive/killboard green than regular empty freighters. How is this not a risk?
>As for entitlement, you're acting just as entitled by believing that CCP should hold the status quo of you earning 5 times more than a miner for less assets on the line. You feel you're entitled to keep your unbalanced mechanics. I tire of hearing the "waah, entitlement" argument at every turn.
How many times do I have to say it, there is no consistent profit for standard freighter fleets. At best you make less than an incursion runner, at an average you're at a substantial loss and at worst you get nothing. ALL OF THIS IS INFLUENCED BY OUR ENEMIES, THEY CHOOSE TO LET US MAKE PROFIT. Enemies being anti-ganking and freighters. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
130
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 19:01:23 -
[386] - Quote
I don't know how many times I have to keep telling someone 'apparently' in miniluv that standard freighter fleets are not net isk positive over the short term or long term. Selective hunting will always be 'isk positive' because you can always wait for that 50b guy to come through. I have a hard time believing you even participate because you don't even know what funds miniluv.
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1386
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 19:35:11 -
[387] - Quote
So globby that fit I linked would 2 **** up your average 8-12 man ganking fleet? How much does a ganking fleet cost anyways ballpark?
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
130
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 19:52:10 -
[388] - Quote
Taloses are over 100 mil, brutixes are around 75, and catalysts are about 10.
@Noragen I'm not going to reveal what those ships are, but it does include remote rep ships. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 20:27:25 -
[389] - Quote
Globby wrote:I literally said best case scenario, where we get full drops, where we have no antiganking shooting wrecks, and we have big freighters coming through at an above average rate. Most of the time, we get below what the cost of ships are, and even if we did come out ahead, splitting it up amongst so many people nets almost nothing. Also it considers no one ganks our macharials or scanning alts, no one fails a gank, etc. Sorry for your selective reading. Sure... you're so hard done by...
Globby wrote:It's as reasonable as any other situation in eve online. I disagree. In most other situations you need ships with at least a little value or some skilled pilots. Scaling up with F1 monkeys in super cheap ships is too much.
Globby wrote:Sorry, I'm not going to play the game for my enemies because they suck. If they were good, they could stop us, which means that the system is working as intended. You just pointed out the reason why AG suck, because they can't actually become a group. They have no organization, skill, or competency. If they were good, they could stop us. If the 20 people the regularly had to watch us kill freighters were in the right ships, we would never get a kill. Lol, you wildly missed the point here. AGs are bad because the mechanics suck. They aren't rewarding, they are tough to do and need a higher outlay. Players with organisational skill and competency have enough sense to know not to bother. Take yourself, I'm sure you're very competent. You wouldn't be an AG because it's far more rewarding and requires less effort to be a ganker.
Globby wrote:If only you actually listened to the facts about the matter, how is ganking even broken? Give me a concise bullet points list and I will refute them fully. Thank you. - Too much reward - Not enough risk - Not enough individual player skill required
I know you'll refute them all, but it won't make you any more right. You're simply going to state your opinion opposes mine, which we know. We have two opposing opinions, that's all.
Globby wrote:No one is suggesting any methods of risk, in fact there is already a ton of risk in the game already, just because some people can't be arsed to do it because it's not a big enough issue TO be arsed with it is proof that ganking isn't as big and game breaking as you think. Why do you think only two groups gank more than once in a blue moon? How is using a 1.5 billion mach that has a third of the EHP of a max anti-tanked freighter not a risk? we've had machs get ganked before, but people don't do it. It's easier, more isk positive/killboard green than regular empty freighters. How is this not a risk? So out of a gank fleet, one guy risks one significant ship, and that only to ganking if he doesn't move away from the incompetent AGs trying to kill him. Seriously mate, nothing you say is going to change my view that you are as big a carebear as a career NPC missioner.
And mainly two groups do it because those big groups have a very public interest in it. People who want to do it gravitate towards it. Why does pretty much one group do a staged permawar in highsec?
>How many times do I have to say it, there is no consistent profit for standard freighter fleets. At best you make less than an incursion runner, at an average you're at a substantial loss and at worst you get nothing. I think you need to know what entitlement means, you keep saying it over and over. AG and victims keep clamoring for the nerfing of ganking, and we simply state how it actually is, repeatedly. Who says you should be able to haul in highsec without risk? No one. Who says that suicide ganking, bumping, and freighter killing is supposed to be a risk in highsec? CCP multiple times.
I know what entitlement means, it;s when a play constantly thinks he is entitled to something for :reasons: like how you feel you are entitled to your easy carebear mechanic with zero balance passes because "It's all someone else's fault". And the answer is many man many more times. Once I see signs of financial struggle, maybe I'll believe it, but still going after empty freighters for the lols really doesn't suggest that's true.
And I'm not suggesting that ganking isn't risk to hauler and I'm not suggesting it should go. What I'm suggesting is that it should either take commitment, effort, skill and risk or reward significantly less on average.
>Not to mention the victims hold 100% of the responsibility.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
130
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 20:50:55 -
[390] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:I disagree. In most other situations you need ships with at least a little value or some skilled pilots. Scaling up with F1 monkeys in super cheap ships is too much. Do you know what harpy fleet is? You know, the super cheap disposable doctrine that can take out doctrines much more expensive per person and overall because you have so many more of them? Parallels exist all over eve friend, a lot of smaller 'disposable' ships regularly take out larger more expensive ones.
Lucas Kell wrote:Lol, you wildly missed the point here. AGs are bad because the mechanics suck. They aren't rewarding, they are tough to do and need a higher outlay. Players with organisational skill and competency have enough sense to know not to bother. Take yourself, I'm sure you're very competent. You wouldn't be an AG because it's far more rewarding and requires less effort to be a ganker. You act like every activity deserves to be as rewarding as every other activity. Ganking takes more effort and is more rewarding, go figure. Also how is AFK osprey repping a freighter more effort than leading a fleet, bumping, dpsing?
Lucas Kell wrote: - Too much reward - Not enough risk - Not enough individual player skill required
-How many times do I have to say that, you do not make money. Jesus man, I've said it and proved it, ask anyone in miniluv how they're funded. You can seek this out yourself. How is negative reward too much? -This is purely an opinion piece, you say there is no risk, I say that we lose our ships 100% of the time when we succeed, and if we fail we lose our ships for nothing. We risk our macharials which are substantially more gankable than freighters. Even if we succeed, we fail because people shoot the wrecks completely nullifying any reward. -This is also an opinion. The F1 monkeys are literally identical to nullsec pvpers in difficulty. The FC's are the same, they know what they can fight and what they can't fight. We just happen to overkill every single target just like every group that can does, in nullsec, wormholes, and lowsec.
Lucas Kell wrote:So out of a gank fleet, one guy risks one significant ship, and that only to ganking if he doesn't move away from the incompetent AGs trying to kill him. Seriously mate, nothing you say is going to change my view that you are as big a carebear as a career NPC missioner. You're being intentionally dull right now. Just because no one is currently attacking you does not mean the risk isn't there. Just because AG is bad, doesn't mean the countering mechanics aren't there. Just because something isn't happening, doesn't mean that it's counter should be nerfed because people refuse to do the thing in the first place. Also to your latter point, only 50 people total actively participate in freighter fleets generally. A whole 50 people. I'm glad you keep referring to haulers as NPCs though, and that they're helpless with the 20 or so other people watching them die.
Lucas Kell wrote:I know what entitlement means, it;s when a play constantly thinks he is entitled to something for :reasons: like how you feel you are entitled to your easy carebear mechanic with zero balance passes because "It's all someone else's fault". And the answer is many man many more times. Once I see signs of financial struggle, maybe I'll believe it, but still going after empty freighters for the lols really doesn't suggest that's true. Why does financial struggle denote balance? By this standard MOA is absolutely destroying the imperium in nullsec, since they're getting rich off of being paid to fight the CFC.
>And I'm not suggesting that ganking isn't risk to hauler and I'm not suggesting it should go. What I'm suggesting is that it should either take commitment, effort, skill and risk or reward significantly less on average.
If it was as brainless, profitable, and skilless as you say, why aren't there that many people doing it? Why doesn't it happen every day? Why is there only one FC in CODE/miniluv combined that FCs over 80% of freighter kills? Why is it mostly only one person?
We do it for a reason. The reason is a belief that the game is fundamentally better with us doing what we're doing. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13769
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 22:18:51 -
[391] - Quote
Globby wrote:I don't know how many times I have to keep telling someone 'apparently' in miniluv that standard freighter fleets are not net isk positive over the short term or long term.
A few more times, because he's blatantly lying about that part.
Quote: Selective hunting will always be 'isk positive' because you can always wait for that 50b guy to come through.
But for all his misapplied ranting about opportunity cost, he can't figure out that sitting around waiting for somebody worth killing is a huge opportunity cost.
Whereas PvE has none, ever. You can do missions and especially incursions literally all day, I used to plex several accounts in one weekend a month of flying a Guardian.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13769
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 22:22:24 -
[392] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Lol, you wildly missed the point here. AGs are bad because the mechanics suck.
No, they're bad because they are really, really, godawfully bad at EVE Online. If they had their **** together, ganking would functionally cease to exist.
But then you don't gank, so I wouldn't expect you to actually have a clue about this.
Quote: You wouldn't be an AG because it's far more rewarding and requires less effort to be a ganker.
No, I couldn't be an anti-ganker because I'm a real player, and that's a disqualifier.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1388
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 00:02:16 -
[393] - Quote
Look friends, this Lucas guy is mad because someone used Isbotter to gank and then CCP immediately revised their stance on Input multiplexing and banned his Isbotter mining fleet in the process.
If you don't believe me, go to the Isbotter thread and read how butthurt he was about the whole Isbotter change. Of course he will deny everything, he is actually a ganker ... bla bla... cool story
He probably does not even play anymore, he just tries to get his revenge by pressing for a gank nerf, the profession who ended his cheating. As you may have noticed, reason and logic is not something he will use, he is in a state of blind hate and no amount of discussion will change that.
I suggest you just ignore him and let him rage on his own. There is nothing to be gained by giving him any attention.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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John E Normus
The Conference Elite CODE.
613
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 00:30:39 -
[394] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Look friends, this Lucas guy is mad because someone used Isbotter to gank and then CCP immediately revised their stance on Input multiplexing and banned his Isbotter mining fleet in the process.
If you don't believe me, go to the Isbotter thread and read how butthurt he was about the whole Isbotter change. Of course he will deny everything, he is actually a ganker ... bla bla... cool story
He probably does not even play anymore, he just tries to get his revenge by pressing for a gank nerf, the profession who ended his cheating. As you may have noticed, reason and logic is not something he will use, he is in a state of blind hate and no amount of discussion will change that.
I suggest you just ignore him and let him rage on his own. There is nothing to be gained by giving him any attention.
Bro, I'm sorry but isk-centric bears make me
NOH8
Between Ignorance and Wisdom
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 01:44:23 -
[395] - Quote
Globby wrote:Do you know what harpy fleet is? You know, the super cheap disposable doctrine that can take out doctrines much more expensive per person and overall because you have so many more of them? Parallels exist all over eve friend, a lot of smaller 'disposable' ships regularly take out larger more expensive ones. Last I checked, gank cats were significantly cheaper that harpy fleet ships.
Globby wrote:You act like every activity deserves to be as rewarding as every other activity. Ganking takes more effort and is more rewarding, go figure. Also how is AFK osprey repping a freighter more effort than leading a fleet, bumping, dpsing? To an extent they do, it's called balance. You want your activity to be super rewarding and easy, while you want AGs to have a tough time with no reward so they don't oppose you. Carebear.
Globby wrote:-How many times do I have to say that, you do not make money. Jesus man, I've said it and proved it, ask anyone in miniluv how they're funded. You can seek this out yourself. How is negative reward too much? -This is purely an opinion piece, you say there is no risk, I say that we lose our ships 100% of the time when we succeed, and if we fail we lose our ships for nothing. We risk our macharials which are substantially more gankable than freighters. Even if we succeed, we fail because people shoot the wrecks completely nullifying any reward. -This is also an opinion. The F1 monkeys are literally identical to nullsec pvpers in difficulty. The FC's are the same, they know what they can fight and what they can't fight. We just happen to overkill every single target just like every group that can does, in nullsec, wormholes, and lowsec. No you haven't, you've literally just said it. And according to miniluv they are self-funded. The proof is in your actions, if you weren't making any isk, you'd not be doing lol ganks on empty ships.
And ye, they are opinions. That's what I stated. I have opinions, you have opinions, they differ.
Globby wrote:You're being intentionally dull right now. Just because no one is currently attacking you does not mean the risk isn't there. Just because AG is bad, doesn't mean the countering mechanics aren't there. Just because something isn't happening, doesn't mean that it's counter should be nerfed because people refuse to do the thing in the first place. Also to your latter point, only 50 people total actively participate in freighter fleets generally. A whole 50 people. I'm glad you keep referring to haulers as NPCs though, and that they're helpless with the 20 or so other people watching them die. Rofl, seriously? Prove the countering mechanics are there then. Start up an AG group if it's so damn easy and worthwhile to be an anti-ganker. You won't though because you know it sucks. They are a running joke in gank fleets because they have no method of making any real impact.
Globby wrote:Why does financial struggle denote balance? By this standard MOA is absolutely destroying the imperium in nullsec, since they're getting rich off of being paid to fight the CFC. It doesn't, you simply can't read. When I see financial struggle, that's when I'll believe gankers are out of pocket. All the time I'm seeing events and lol ganks, there's obviously plenty of spare profit going. Obvioulsy you're going to say that it's not profitable because you want to hide the fact that you're carebearing like crazy.
>If it was as brainless, profitable, and skilless as you say, why aren't there that many people doing it? Why doesn't it happen every day? Why is there only one FC in CODE/miniluv combined that FCs over 80% of freighter kills? Why is it mostly only one person?
There are loads of people doing it. Why are there few FCs? Because people don't want to use what's in their head, they just want to F1 for profit and tears.
>We do it for a reason. The reason is a belief that the game is fundamentally better with us doin what we're doing. Lol, you do it for isk because you're a carebear. If you are legitimately doing it out of some weird belief that the game requires you to do it then I sincerely pity you. This is a game friend.
>I'll say again, if everyone hauled fully bulkheaded and with one bil or less in highsec, there would be no ganking in highsec. Yeah, because bulkheaded freighters never die, right? Especially if they are nearly empty.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 01:49:28 -
[396] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:But for all his misapplied ranting about opportunity cost, he can't figure out that sitting around waiting for somebody worth killing is a huge opportunity cost. Lol, I'm not the one calling out opportunity cost as a lack of profit, that would be your man globby there, he's going full Gevlon on that one it seems. It's effectively "waah, we make loads of isk but could make more doing something else, therefore this is a loss".
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Look friends, this Lucas guy is mad because someone used Isbotter to gank and then CCP immediately revised their stance on Input multiplexing and banned his Isbotter mining fleet in the process. Swing and a miss. I wasn't and ISBoxer user before they started banning random multiboxers. It's funny when you guys run out of ways to argue so you just start slinging **** to see if it sticks, it's marvellously amusing. Pretty much guarantees that my points are spot on.
Ima Wreckyou wrote:I suggest you just ignore him and let him rage on his own. There is nothing to be gained by giving him any attention. By all means do. Trolls blocking me is always a good thing.
I know right? Globby makes me laugh too.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1390
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 05:02:10 -
[397] - Quote
John E Normus wrote:Bro, I'm sorry but isk-centric bears make me NOH8 John
Look, all I wanted to say was: If there was some kind of "Veers memorial recognition award for incoherent EVE-O Forum minutes", I would clearly nominate Lucas.
See you on the Highsec battlefields <3
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2198
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 07:30:49 -
[398] - Quote
What ever happened to Veers? I kinda miss his wrong minded obstinacy. Not only did his posting seem to drop off considerably, but the content got more and more brief and terse. Now haven't heard from him in quite a while. Hope he's doin okay.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1258
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 08:06:54 -
[399] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:What ever happened to Veers? I kinda miss his wrong minded obstinacy. Not only did his posting seem to drop off considerably, but the content got more and more brief and terse. Now haven't heard from him in quite a while. Hope he's doin okay. He's fine I am sure. He is just progressing along the road to burn-out. Players like him who play Eve as a "traditional" MMO stay the least time with the game as we heard at Fanfest (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1019227/datascience_presentation/index.html#/5/7).
He's about 18 months into his statistically expected lifespan of about 24 months so he is probably just wrestling the meaning of his existence in Eve and finding less reasons to log in or visit the forums. He might make a re-appearance for the Drifter Incursions after the summer (depending how PvP-free they are), but in the end, the lack of a greater purpose and the repetitive nature of the PvE will finally grind him down and he will move on to another game by the end of the year.
I wish him well though. I hope he finds happiness wherever he ends up. He is/was a forum troll, but at least a self-aware one who forced some interesting discussion. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
983
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 11:59:13 -
[400] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Globby wrote:
Nothing stops AG from ganking our blinged out macharials that are risked every single time we want to bump freighters. They're easier and cheaper to gank, require far fewer people and are more 'killboard green' than freighters by far. There are strategies that would hurt CODE. so much, but AG doesn't do them because it's either too much effort for them or not worth it.
*note this applies to standard ganking fleets, not hyperdunking. hyperdunking has it's own weaknesses and challenges.
This right here. There is absolutely nothing stopping antigankers from blowing up bumpy machs, scouts for miner ganks, neutral alt haulers for CODE ships. In fact, killing those ships would be one of the most effective ways of hitting the gankers back. But, the anti-ganker types won't do it. They don't want to "risk their sec status". Now, just sit and think about that for a moment. Sec status means nothing. It's a number in a database. It's based off of an arbitrary set of game mechanics designed by some Icelandic dudes. Knowing that, the anti-ganker types STILL make a value/morality judgement based on that number. Their basing a morality judgement on a database number. Not activities. Not decisions a player makes. A database number. I think that's kind of sad, in a way. I mean, if *I* ran a counter-ganking corp, the FIRST people I'd be looking to recruit are the ones willing to pull the trigger first, before CODE is ready to go. -10 and a killboard full of ganking scout alts, and CODE hauler alts? That dude would be worth his weight in gold. Sadly, he doesn't exist. Why doesn't he exist? Because the "good guys" are making a values judgement based on an arbitrary database number, and pulling effective counter-gank operations would make that number go into the negative, making the "good guy" a "bad guy". Just ponder that for a little bit. It's like saying "Hey, Jim is a horrible dude, he has negative rep with the Gallente."
Had a router problem so missed a lot of things, anyway I have to reply to this.
Of course I am not going to risk my main toons on a sec status and kill rights, I do stuff with them, thats why me and others are busy training ganker toons to go after the Macherials and this takes time. My AG Macherial gank toon is still some way away from being operational.
A Macherial fitted for maximum efficiency in terms of bumping is killable by one Talos if the talos pilot is very skilled and is overheating, put a tank module on there and it goes to 2 or 3 depending on the tank modules. Also its a damn mobile target that is hard to pin down
Anti-gankers are doing this to get in the way, they do not have people throwing ISK and resources at them like the gankers, so while the gankers can throw 500m at a gank and just laugh at it as its small change, not so the AG's players...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
143
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 15:27:43 -
[401] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Last I checked, gank cats were significantly cheaper that harpy fleet ships. Like triple the cost, but half and a third of the cost of Brutixes and Taloses. Yet you don't debate the idea that smaller and more plentiful ships regularly take out much more expensive larger ships every day in eve.
Lucas Kell wrote:To an extent they do, it's called balance. You want your activity to be super rewarding and easy, while you want AGs to have a tough time with no reward so they don't oppose you. Carebear. AG already have a much smaller, cheaper and easier way to oppose ganking. I'll say this again: The logistics of ganking are more easily stopped than the logistics of hauling. Macharials which are 100% required to actually gank freighters are gankable by two or three people in taloses, or six people in catalysts reliably. Ganking requires a minimum ceiling of twenty people including DPS, bumpers and scouts, whereas antiganking counters twenty DPS in catalysts with half a dozen proper ships. I like balance, and I like that anti-ganking opposes us, it makes it fun. But saying that they are unable to fight us because of game mechanics instead of their incompetence is misleading and flat out wrong. I think the system is balanced because because of the following facts: 1) AG, if competent, can stop CODE. fleets with a third of the numbers. 2) AG, if competent, can deny 100% of CODE. loot, bringing incoming revenue to zero and causing all ships to be lost with no rewards 3) Haulers, if competent, can avoid 99% of ganks by having a webbing alt 4) Haulers, if competent, can also avoid 90% of ganks by properly tanking and hauling with their ship, and scouting systems before hand to see if gankers are in local. 5) Haulers' decisions directly support ganking through their bad decisions. 6) Anti-ganking isn't 'profitable' because there is no market need for it. Ship spinning shouldn't be profitable just because I put a lot of effort into ship spinning.
Globby wrote:No you haven't, you've literally just said it. And according to miniluv they are self-funded. The proof is in your actions, if you weren't making any isk, you'd not be doing lol ganks on empty ships. You still don't know where miniluv gets it's money I see. Ask Warr Akini about his 12 ratting carriers in Deklein please. Ask him how he funds miniluv by himself.
Globby wrote:Rofl, seriously? Prove the countering mechanics are there then. Start up an AG group if it's so damn easy and worthwhile to be an anti-ganker. You won't though because you know it sucks. They are a running joke in gank fleets because they have no method of making any real impact. Hard knocks stopped 15 taloses from killing their fully expanded freighter in jita a couple days ago, they had six support ships total. The proof is in front of you, you just refuse to do the math yourself, and I'm not going to help antiganking to prove someone wrong who can't take five minutes out of his day to hit up EFT and do some math.
Globby wrote:It doesn't, you simply can't read. When I see financial struggle, that's when I'll believe gankers are out of pocket. All the time I'm seeing events and lol ganks, there's obviously plenty of spare profit going. Obvioulsy you're going to say that it's not profitable because you want to hide the fact that you're carebearing like crazy. Warr Akini pays for everything in miniluv, CODE. is funded by The New Order. On top of what we get from loot, both organizations get money from the outside to remain solvent. These are facts of the matter, and I'm embarrassed that you do not know either of these. How can someone in miniluv not know the sugar daddy Warr Akini spends hours every day funding the majority of freighter killing in highsec.
>There are loads of people doing it. Why are there few FCs? Because people don't want to use what's in their head, they just want to F1 for profit and tears. People don't want to use what's in their head because it's not worth it. I don't understand why you can't look at simple math of the situation. If it WAS WORTH IT AND AS EASY AS YOU SAY AND AS PROFITABLE, you would have lots of people flocking to make money here.
>Yeah, because bulkheaded freighters never die, right? Especially if they are -kill removed- [/url].[/quote] But that's not a case of everyone hauling properly, that's a case of one guy flying properly. If we had to fight that every single time we wouldn't have enough people to do it consistently. Most fleets start off with ten guys killing orcas and it builds up to freighter fleets, it never starts with thirty man fleets, it only gets there because of the hype and kills coming in. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
143
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 15:35:04 -
[402] - Quote
Also could we keep this civil? the ad hominem and childish 'no, YOU are' is kind of silly at this point. We can keep this mature and reasonable, no?
I've told you time and time again, that the effort put into killing freighters with no guarantee on actually killing freighters is a risk. I brought up other money making methods as a comparison, and I've proven to you, multiple times, through giving you sources to check with that gankers doing standard ganking fleets do NOT net a profit.
If you chase freighters, hyperdunk and do other things, then yes, you make a profit, but that's not a standard gank fleet. That's sitting down and waiting for a big one to come through you ping, and get enough guys until you can kill it. If you made ganking harder, that wouldn't make it harder to do or less profitable, you would just bring more guys. You fail to realize that profits go to the organization, and if it were split between members you wouldn't be getting any good money, it would just be a "Yeah, thanks for forming up for an hour, here's a consolation 70 mil." People do it for the kills, not the ISK.
I don't know why I'm responding to you any more, I've made points and pointed you directly to sources, all you have to do is ask, do some math, or put some logic together. I've said the same things over and over and you completely forget they've been said in your next post, you're selectively reading.
Like as an example, you said miniluv was self funded and you touted that as a victory. Yes, it's self funded, by Warr Akini because he rats six hours a day on twelve accounts to fund us. |
John E Normus
The Conference Elite CODE.
613
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 15:46:44 -
[403] - Quote
Have no fear, Veers will return when the New Order needs him again!
Between Ignorance and Wisdom
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Vanilla Mooses
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 15:59:45 -
[404] - Quote
Silent Renegade wrote:rant
After the 12th paragraph, I started getting light-headed, and had to stop and set up a base camp to rest while the Sherpas went ahead to scout out the rest of the post. But after a long nap and some serious re-hydration, I was able to push through and finish my ascent. I donGÇÖt know that IGÇÖve ever been more proud of myself.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 16:42:20 -
[405] - Quote
Globby wrote:But saying that they are unable to fight us because of game mechanics instead of their incompetence is misleading and flat out wrong. I'm not saying that. I'm saying their mechanics suck SO MUCH that any reasonably competent person won't do it. You are yet to prove that wrong, primarily because you can't. If they manage to even land on the right target there's nothing they can do, even if they are competent. It amuses me that you claim they are unable to do anything one minute then the next are like "oh it only takes like 1 person to stop millions of gankers".
Globby wrote:Also could we keep this civil? the ad hominem and childish 'no, YOU are' is kind of silly at this point. We can keep this mature and reasonable, no? Appraently no, we can't, because rather than go after the argument's you're instead misrepresenting, attacking and attempting to discredit me, while you're little troll buddies throw around their usual attacks.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1193
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 16:45:21 -
[406] - Quote
well its already been said that someone saved 2 freighters with just a logi, maybe these freighter pilots should have logi escorts, no? or do the mechanics suck for that too?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
143
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 16:50:08 -
[407] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:I'm not saying that. I'm saying their mechanics suck SO MUCH that any reasonably competent person won't do it. You are yet to prove that wrong, primarily because you can't. If they manage to even land on the right target there's nothing they can do, even if they are competent. It amuses me that you claim they are unable to do anything one minute then the next are like "oh it only takes like 1 person to stop millions of gankers".
The mechanics are more than viable enough to stop ganking. They are unable to do it because they are bad. If they were good like hard knocks, they could stop out ganks with a third of the numbers, exactly like what happened a few days ago. It has happened when we were at our best and these hardknocks guys actually knew what they were doing and stopped us, ask any Miniluv FC who was there for the attempted gank on an HK freighter.
Let's look at this example. What if shuttles regularly carried 5 bil + and died a lot and it was crazy profitable, should CCP then nerf shuttle ganking or buff shuttles? Should a group's consistent ignorance and refusal to get better or to properly play force CCP to balance the game for their ignorance or stupidity?
Lucas Kell wrote:Appraently no, we can't, because rather than go after the argument's you're instead misrepresenting, attacking and attempting to discredit me, while you're little troll buddies throw around their usual attacks. The only discredit that has been shown has been your facts proven incorrect and mine shown correct. I don't tell people how to respond to your post, they're obviously responding to the arguments you've made, and their belief that they can't actually believe someone continually misreads or refuses to read things. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
143
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 16:50:59 -
[408] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:well its already been said that someone saved 2 freighters with just a logi, maybe these freighter pilots should have logi escorts, no? or do the mechanics suck for that too?
Yes, being able to give remote reps while receiving 0 combat flags is a bad mechanic for antiganking |
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1393
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 16:53:05 -
[409] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:well its already been said that someone saved 2 freighters with just a logi, maybe these freighter pilots should have logi escorts, no? or do the mechanics suck for that too? to be fair one group wasn't code. Not sure who they were. I bank on removing 2400dps for 20-25 seconds worth of gank. they bring more then that extra I guess a freighter will pop. The code gank save I managed to fleet the freighter to give it boosts too
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 19:18:53 -
[410] - Quote
Globby wrote:The mechanics are more than viable enough to stop ganking. They are unable to do it because they are bad. And I disagree (with the mechanics, not that AGs are bad). The reason they are all so bad is because the mechanics don't encourage competent people to do it. Competent people know it's futile.
Globby wrote:Let's look at this example. What if shuttles regularly carried 5 bil + and died a lot and it was crazy profitable, should CCP then nerf shuttle ganking or buff shuttles? Should a group's consistent ignorance and refusal to get better or to properly play force CCP to balance the game for their ignorance or stupidity? Of coure not, but then that's expected with reductio ad absurdum. We're not talking about shuttles carrying plex are we, we're talking about how difficult a job it is to counter a gank. Sure, there are counters that work on terrible gankers, but there are counter-counters that gankers use which are simple and make it basically impossible to stop. I've been ganking all day today with white knights on nearly every grid and we've not even acknowledged their existence.
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Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
143
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 19:42:30 -
[411] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:And I disagree (with the mechanics, not that AGs are bad). The reason they are all so bad is because the mechanics don't encourage competent people to do it. Competent people know it's futile. Good people can stop it, but they don't because they know they can't?
what
Good people can stop it, but they don't because they are smart enough that they aren't going to devote their life to attempting to grief CODE. They have no interest in the well being of a stranger, and why should they? Why should showing up and AFK repping a stranger be rewarding? What is this entitlement that Anti-Ganking should have an ISK reward? The reward is trying to save the freighter and hurt CODE., there is nothing wrong or small about this reward obviously to the anti-ganker because they keep coming back for more.
Lucas Kell wrote:Of coure not, but then that's expected with reductio ad absurdum. We're not talking about shuttles carrying plex are we, we're talking about how difficult a job it is to counter a gank. Sure, there are counters that work on terrible gankers, but there are counter-counters that gankers use which are simple and make it basically impossible to stop. I've been ganking all day today with white knights on nearly every grid and we've not even acknowledged their existence. There are so few of them in ships that matter, just because a guy brings a raven to watch doesn't mean he is actively contributing.
Let me tell you that the shuttle thing actually happens, and it was such a problem that people =stopped hauling expensive stuff= in shuttles. It's a self correcting problem. You still have the occasional idiot, but it stopped. When people don't stop when people gank them en masse, that means ganking isn't a big enough problem for them as a group to change their actions. It's sort of like capitalism, the dumb die off and the smart and competent ones remain, and reap the rewards. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6433
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 19:57:53 -
[412] - Quote
Globby wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:And I disagree (with the mechanics, not that AGs are bad). The reason they are all so bad is because the mechanics don't encourage competent people to do it. Competent people know it's futile. Good people can stop it, but they don't because they know they can't? See what I mean about misrepresentation.
No, I'm saying that good people know that it's unrewarding and they will be able to stop a tiny fraction of ganks even if they put in a humongous amount of effort. Meanwhile gankers need to make minor adjustments to their approach to go back to ignoring them. No matter how good an AG is, he simply can't compete with decent gankers. Smart people know this so smart people do not try to AG.
Globby wrote:Good people can stop it No, they can't. They can at best stop a small number of ganks. If you want to prove that AGs can be effective, you'll have to show me an AG group consistently producing results. You can't because none exist and no competent players are dumb enough to try.
Globby wrote:There are so few of them in ships that matter, just because a guy brings a raven to watch doesn't mean he is actively contributing. We've had ewar on grid, logi on grid, all sorts, and most trying to stop us. It's all irrelevant.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 20:15:43 -
[413] - Quote
My God, this thread.
Will just drop few thoughts - while ganking should stay in game, some of the mechanics desperately need reworking, many points made by Serendipity were right on spot regarding that. Also there are a lot of missed opportunities regarding couter-criminal gameplay in hisec - linking criminal acts to bounties and making bounty hunting an actual thing could be interesting, maybe even introducing some form of player police faction (kill criminals, earn a bit of concord lp related to reduced kill value e.g.). Just some ideas.
OP is obviously wrong on quite a few of his points (hint - making generalizations about any group in game is generally bad, especially when calling them RL bullies) however I do think that some of the things CODE does are bordering (and crossing the border) of pathological behaviour. While this is indeed a game and as in any game you have to learn to suck up your loss, keeping some basic level of civilised relationship towards other players should be a no-brainer. While 'pushing the boundaries' of what others will do for their virtual property (namely, bonus room sort of stuff) might be considered edgy gameplay by some, I find that kind of stuff both sickening and worrying. Needles to say, erotica is still an active participant on code forums/pages.
However, those things aside - the worst thing is lack of openness from the vocal ganking members to what's being said. I understand that some changes to ganking would reduce its profitability / draw, but there really is no logic in the fact that you can reship once you've committed criminal acts in hisec, freely move through stargates etc. I won't even start on the ability to loot safely (for all practical purposes) using dst fleet hangars. Oh and that 'hisec nerfs' graphic is hillarious since it only illustrates the reduction in very easy shenanigans one could pull thanks to poorly designed/explained game mechanics and difference between experience folks get by participating in combat pvp and other aspects of game (pve, industry etc). |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
143
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 20:20:43 -
[414] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:No, I'm saying that good people know that it's unrewarding and they will be able to stop a tiny fraction of ganks even if they put in a humongous amount of effort. Meanwhile gankers need to make minor adjustments to their approach to go back to ignoring them. No matter how good an AG is, he simply can't compete with decent gankers. Smart people know this so smart people do not try to AG. What humongous amount of effort are you talking about? What is AG doing that is so damn hard?
Lucas Kell wrote:No, they can't. They can at best stop a small number of ganks. If you want to prove that AGs can be effective, you'll have to show me an AG group consistently producing results. You can't because none exist and no competent players are dumb enough to try. If you can stop one, you have the potential to stop them all, period. Why would a belief otherwise be logical? Rhamnousia Nosferatu consistently provides results, I would've killed tens of billions more if not for him. He is a good antiganker and is good at his job and competent. He has also denied CODE. and miniluv nearly fifty billion in loot at this point. This is consistent success by a single person who is actually good, imagine if there were twenty of them. If there was one antiganker that was in logi for every CODE gankers there is, you would never have freighters die.
Lucas Kell wrote:We've had ewar on grid, logi on grid, all sorts, and most trying to stop us. It's all irrelevant. Yeah, go figure five guys in relevant ships can't stop a fifty man fleet. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
143
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 20:42:51 -
[415] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote: :words:
Are you against hyperdunking as a gameplay option even though you know how easily it is stopped?
What exact nerfs would you propose to highsec ganking?
Do you agree that shooting wrecks is currently unbalanced? It has no entry requirements and has no counter play if done correctly.
I don't like the fleet hangar mechanic, but fixing it would change a lot of other parts of the game that rely on it. Maybe not allowing frigates, rookie ships and shuttles to move loot into fleet hangars would be a decent compromise.
I agree that it would be cool to have some sort of criminal hunting mechanic, but I cannot think of one that would be balanced and not be abused by people who have -10.0 alts. Even if we did something like Factional Warfare where 20% of the value of the ship is paid out in CONCORD LP, you'd still have at least a ganker smartbomb his own fleet to get the profits before they go and gank.
Maybe if a target is GCC, and his ship is killed, 10-20% of the value of the ship (whatever is the FW standard) is paid out to all 0.0+ non GCC participants on the kill? |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1266
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 20:51:54 -
[416] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote: Will just drop few thoughts - while ganking should stay in game, some of the mechanics desperately need reworking, many points made by Serendipity were right on spot regarding that. Also there are a lot of missed opportunities regarding couter-criminal gameplay in hisec - linking criminal acts to bounties and making bounty hunting an actual thing could be interesting, maybe even introducing some form of player police faction (kill criminals, earn a bit of concord lp related to reduced kill value e.g.). Just some ideas.
I am sure there is room for improvement. The problem is that the ratcheting up of NPC-enforced security in highsec has gotten to the point criminals cannot fly any ships of consequence. Therefore there will never be anything of value for a bounty hunter or law enforcement to hunt as criminals are limited to small and agile, as well as cheap and disposable ships. The only way this would work is to "buff" criminals to the point they can fly things of value and make the criminal vs. law enforcement dynamic more like faction warfare. The problem with this is many more non-combatants will die as the law enforcement side will never be as efficient as the faction police NPCs.
Thus criminals are limited to just be thugs that scurry out from the alley and commit the petty crimes they can get away with like now, rather than the true villains that would allow the escalations you envision. I am guessing the good people of highsec would prefer the petty crimes gankers get away with now, than the evil force of consequence you would have to allow them to become for there to be a real battle of good vs. evil.
There is no room for escalation of "gud fights" between gankers and anti-gankers as long as gankers are so punitively punished by the game mechanics. Personally I am fine with that - gankers can be effectively ignored by anyone who spends any effort but still provide some risk to the complacent in highsec as the were originally intended.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:OP is obviously wrong on quite a few of his points (hint - making generalizations about any group in game is generally bad, especially when calling them RL bullies) however I do think that some of the things CODE does are bordering (and crossing the border) of pathological behaviour. Ah, another space psychologist I see. It is good to see so many talented professionals on these forums who can diagnose mental illness of their fellow players over the Internet.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:While this is indeed a game and as in any game you have to learn to suck up your loss, keeping some basic level of civilised relationship towards other players should be a no-brainer. While 'pushing the boundaries' of what others will do for their virtual property (namely, bonus room sort of stuff) might be considered edgy gameplay by some, I find that kind of stuff both sickening and worrying. Needles to say, erotica is still an active participant on code forums/pages. This I agree with. I tire of the constant stream of racial, misogynistic and homophobic insults I receive from my fellow players after blowing up their space pixels. There should be no tolerance of personal insults (which are against the EULA) or actual real-life harassment. I am less bothered by demanding a singing ransom from a fellow anonymous adult player, but everyone draws their own moral line I guess.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:However, those things aside - the worst thing is lack of openness from the vocal ganking members to what's being said. I understand that some changes to ganking would reduce its profitability / draw, but there really is no logic in the fact that you can reship once you've committed criminal acts in hisec, freely move through stargates etc. I won't even start on the ability to loot safely (for all practical purposes) using dst fleet hangars. You start your post with saying how "ganking should stay in the game" and then go on to say that the things that enable ganking should be removed from the game "just because". Friend, functional game play trumps your view of "logic", whatever that is. CCP has built a universe where criminals can operate in highsec and that requires such things as criminals using gates in highsec, and the ability to profit from their crimes and so forth. You can appeal to some "space logic" that exists in your mind, but New Eden is a fictional universe fill of all sorts of logical inconsistencies. CCP has decided to enable ganking and criminal behaviour in highsec to provide some player-driven risk there.
If you truly think ganking is unbalanced in some way, you will have much greater success arguing those imbalances on the basis of game mechanics, not imaginary space lore. But really, highsec is the now the safest it ever has been in the 12-year history of Eve. Why do you think it should be made even safer?
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13770
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 21:18:36 -
[417] - Quote
Globby wrote: Good people can stop it, but they don't because they know they can't?
what
Carebear speak.
They will say anything, no matter how hypocritical or self contradictory, to justify their desire to Trammelize this game.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Tyranthian
Ms Marvel Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 22:22:21 -
[418] - Quote
I really didn't wanna reply to this but I will. My biggest problem with ganking is that often gankers focus on newer players who haven't grasped all the concepts of Eve especially new miners. They're flying their brand new flashy blow me up retriever that they just spent all of their isk on grinding in a venture, when suddenly this guy comes warping into his pocket and blows him outta the sky. More than likely this new player will probably quit especially after receiving an email about having a permit and whatever else is said to this player.
Now should of this player been flying a ship he just dropped all of his isk into absolutely not but again he doesn't know the rules of Eve yet and he's been taught in a very harsh way. As for all the players who have been around for longer understand what it means to undock in Eve and if they get their shiny hulk/mack destroyed then that's their fault especially if it's happened multiple times.
The only thing that we can do is learn how to adapt to the harsher world we're living in not implement insane restrictions on players who wish to lead this sort of cold cruel life. It does need to become harder for gankers to do what they do because in my opinion ganking is easymode. It's like playing a video game in very easy in which the reaction time of what you're killing is often very slow and always misses when it shoots at you(obviously this video game isn't Eve because these targets aren't shooting back). I'm not saying it doesn't take at least some skill to accomplish what is done but doesn't take nearly as much skill as say real PvP in Eve. The coordination is perhaps the only impressive thing otherwise it's easymode PvP.
Another problem is there's no true consequence for having a -10 security status because they can still freely dock up at all stations to pick up their ship and insta undock and warp off to destroy their target. Then if he wants to go somewhere else he simply warps off to the new location in his pod without any problem because its impossible to lock a pod off a gate. If anything Eve is safe for him because he still gets to accomplish what he aimed to do. Now can we counter the actual gank, yes we can try our best to do so but there's nothing to prevent the gank from occurring in the first place and this is the problem(being able to do so should be challenging). There's no solution for this because to implement a way to lock a pod off a gate would then make life absolutely miserable for everyone.
Don't bother replying just read my wall text and roll your eyes. |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
149
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 22:58:27 -
[419] - Quote
Better to lose a retriever and learn early than lose a charon and lose a lot more.
I thrasher gank new players all the time. I send them a welcome evemail, send them ISK, and tell them what happened, and how they're never safe. This is a good introduction to EVE. |
Sarah Flynt
105
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 23:21:18 -
[420] - Quote
Globby wrote:Better to lose a retriever and learn early than lose a charon and lose a lot more. That is very much a matter of perspective. Losing a Retriever in the early days would have been a much bigger loss for me than loosing e.g. a jump freighter nowadays - relatively speaking.
Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1394
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 23:50:51 -
[421] - Quote
Actually I'll throw in here. I think utilizing hangers of any other ship while suspect or criminal should send the hanger ship suspect. The ability to reship under suspect flag or stash goods while suspect is crazy.
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Tyranthian
Ms Marvel Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 23:56:36 -
[422] - Quote
Globby wrote:Better to lose a retriever and learn early than lose a charon and lose a lot more. I thrasher gank new players all the time. I send them a welcome evemail, send them ISK, and tell them what happened, and how they're never safe. This is a good introduction to EVE.
It's a good learning experience but a harsh one that's what I'm saying even if you give them isk and teach them. I even suggested to AG once that we actually bump miners flying retrievers and other target ships without blowing them up then contact them on what happened and how to prevent it from happening but they said it was to aggressive which yes it is but not nearly as aggressive as you guys. |
Tyranthian
Ms Marvel Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 00:03:45 -
[423] - Quote
Sarah Flynt wrote:Globby wrote:Better to lose a retriever and learn early than lose a charon and lose a lot more. That is very much a matter of perspective. Losing a Retriever in the early days would have been a much bigger loss for me than loosing e.g. a jump freighter nowadays - relatively speaking.
I also agree because when it comes to freighter pilots I want to believe that these pilots are sitting on billions of isk and can afford to lose them. I'm not sure if this is honestly true or not but to move around billions and billions of isk they must be making a lot of isk. Whereas the new retriever pilot has invested a large majority of his isk into this ship which is now gone and he's gotta go back to the drawing board which could cause that pilot to quit Eve or even could cause the creation of a monster. |
Ima Spyalt
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 00:34:43 -
[424] - Quote
As someone who has been on both ends of ganking, although they failed to kill me gloriously due to bad timing, I can say that the current punishment is a joke. I sometimes will sit there and just take pity on new players who get ganked early on get it worse than someone who has the skills and isk to ignore a gank. As killing a new player who can barely make enough isk to replace the ship in 2 hours of gameplay is harsh while me on the other hand can strip a belt in half an hour so killing my whole fleet just sets me back long enough to replace what I lost, not that I care. I think there should be higher punishment for attacking newer players as the value of ISK is disproportionately higher for them. How this is done I don't care really.
PS: obviously a forum alt for safety reasons :p |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13770
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 01:04:36 -
[425] - Quote
Ima Spyalt wrote: I think there should be higher punishment for attacking newer players as the value of ISK is disproportionately higher for them.
The best part is that you even admit earlier in your post that the disproportionate value of isk to newbies is YOUR FAULT.
You're the one stripping belts in half an hour, right? YOU are the one devaluing the effort of new players, not gankers.
That's why highsec should be much less safe. So bloated carebears like you can't run up such ridiculous inflation and devalue new player income while cowering behind the disgusting safety of highsec.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Ima Spyalt
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 01:09:40 -
[426] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ima Spyalt wrote: I think there should be higher punishment for attacking newer players as the value of ISK is disproportionately higher for them.
The best part is that you even admit earlier in your post that the disproportionate value of isk to newbies is YOUR FAULT. You're the one stripping belts in half an hour, right? YOU are the one devaluing the effort of new players, not gankers. That's why highsec should be much less safe. So bloated carebears like you can't run up such ridiculous inflation and devalue new player income while cowering behind the disgusting safety of highsec.
I'm no carebear I'm out to make isk and ruin someone else's day, only difference is I'm willing to spend a few hours to devaluation of everything in game to make it harder for people to turn a profit. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13770
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 01:13:52 -
[427] - Quote
Ima Spyalt wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ima Spyalt wrote: I think there should be higher punishment for attacking newer players as the value of ISK is disproportionately higher for them.
The best part is that you even admit earlier in your post that the disproportionate value of isk to newbies is YOUR FAULT. You're the one stripping belts in half an hour, right? YOU are the one devaluing the effort of new players, not gankers. That's why highsec should be much less safe. So bloated carebears like you can't run up such ridiculous inflation and devalue new player income while cowering behind the disgusting safety of highsec. I'm no carebear I'm out to make isk and ruin someone else's day, only difference is I'm willing to spend a few hours to devaluation of everything in game to make it harder for people to turn a profit.
Congratulations, you are more "the problem" than gankers could ever be.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
150
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 01:17:05 -
[428] - Quote
When I thrasher gank I literally give more to new players who I gank than actually spending on my suicide thrashers. |
Ima Spyalt
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 01:20:17 -
[429] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ima Spyalt wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ima Spyalt wrote: I think there should be higher punishment for attacking newer players as the value of ISK is disproportionately higher for them.
The best part is that you even admit earlier in your post that the disproportionate value of isk to newbies is YOUR FAULT. You're the one stripping belts in half an hour, right? YOU are the one devaluing the effort of new players, not gankers. That's why highsec should be much less safe. So bloated carebears like you can't run up such ridiculous inflation and devalue new player income while cowering behind the disgusting safety of highsec. I'm no carebear I'm out to make isk and ruin someone else's day, only difference is I'm willing to spend a few hours to devaluation of everything in game to make it harder for people to turn a profit. Congratulations, you are more "the problem" than gankers could ever be.
So I don't care, it's only a biproduct of how I used to play being removed, I'd rather make the problem worse till they fix it than give a **** about the morals of how I'm trying to get there. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13771
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 02:57:14 -
[430] - Quote
Ima Spyalt wrote: So I don't care, it's only a biproduct of how I used to play being removed, I'd rather make the problem worse till they fix it than give a **** about the morals of how I'm trying to get there.
I don't believe you. Post with your main, and then tell us what playstyle was removed that hurt you so dearly.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
|
Ima Spyalt
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 02:59:13 -
[431] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ima Spyalt wrote: So I don't care, it's only a biproduct of how I used to play being removed, I'd rather make the problem worse till they fix it than give a **** about the morals of how I'm trying to get there.
I don't believe you. Post with your main, and then tell us what playstyle was removed that hurt you so dearly.
Meh I don't need to. |
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
342
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 03:59:09 -
[432] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ima Spyalt wrote: So I don't care, it's only a biproduct of how I used to play being removed, I'd rather make the problem worse till they fix it than give a **** about the morals of how I'm trying to get there.
I don't believe you. Post with your main, and then tell us what playstyle was removed that hurt you so dearly. Going with ISOboxing 10-20 hulks with freighter and orca support.
If was incursions dude would still be printing billions each week. Must be mining.
"Playstyle removed"
Maybe talking bout you guys, CODE lol. Like CODE. Removing afk mining maybe?
Its prob like 20 accoutns in mining op tho.
Good riddance. Unsub your other accounts. You are worthless to this video game. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24392
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 04:23:41 -
[433] - Quote
I never thought I'd say this but there's a definite possibility that CAM has hit the nail on the head.
Ima Spyalt, you're a bitter, selfish and hypocritical coward, apparently you're also of repugnant character.
People like you are poison.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Ima Spyalt
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 04:30:03 -
[434] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ima Spyalt wrote: So I don't care, it's only a biproduct of how I used to play being removed, I'd rather make the problem worse till they fix it than give a **** about the morals of how I'm trying to get there.
I don't believe you. Post with your main, and then tell us what playstyle was removed that hurt you so dearly. Going with ISOboxing 10-20 hulks with freighter and orca support. If was incursions dude would still be printing billions each week. Must be mining. "Playstyle removed" Maybe talking bout you guys, CODE lol. Like CODE. Removing afk mining maybe? Its prob like 20 accoutns in mining op tho. Good riddance. Unsub your other accounts. You are worthless to this video game.
Actually no, more like something that enough people cried about removed and on the note of charter I'm just being as toxic as this forum is most days. |
John E Normus
The Conference Elite CODE.
613
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 05:14:47 -
[435] - Quote
Ima Spyalt wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ima Spyalt wrote: So I don't care, it's only a biproduct of how I used to play being removed, I'd rather make the problem worse till they fix it than give a **** about the morals of how I'm trying to get there.
I don't believe you. Post with your main, and then tell us what playstyle was removed that hurt you so dearly. Going with ISOboxing 10-20 hulks with freighter and orca support. If was incursions dude would still be printing billions each week. Must be mining. "Playstyle removed" Maybe talking bout you guys, CODE lol. Like CODE. Removing afk mining maybe? Its prob like 20 accoutns in mining op tho. Good riddance. Unsub your other accounts. You are worthless to this video game. Actually no, more like something that enough people cried about removed and on the note of charter I'm just being as toxic as this forum is most days.
Bonus rooms?
Between Ignorance and Wisdom
|
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
919
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 06:25:15 -
[436] - Quote
I'm guessing it's actually the opposite of CAM's theory. I would say he used to be an incursion multiboxer and the input broadcasting changes "removed" that playstyle for him. Since then he has switched to multibox mining instead since it's much simpler to do without input broadcasting.
Also I'm getting a slight urge to invoke Article 11 of the Shadow Proclamation once again.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6435
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 07:08:33 -
[437] - Quote
Globby wrote:What humongous amount of effort are you talking about? What is AG doing that is so damn hard? The act of finding and landing on the right gank at the right time is tough enough. Unlike ganking, they don't have an infinite amount of time, they've got a very small window of opportunity. Then their whole team has to be on the ball to have a hope of stopping it. It's not "approach, F1, see you back at HQ". Maybe you should give it a try sometime so you can understand it from their point of view.
Globby wrote:If you can stop one, you have the potential to stop them all, period. Why would a belief otherwise be logical? I can beat a 5 year old at boxing, I can't beat the world heavyweight champion. Some ganks can be stopped because they may already be pushing their luck trying to pull it off with the team they have. If that group is even remotely competent then AGs are irrelevant.
Globby wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu consistently provides results, I would've killed tens of billions more if not for him. That's because you hyperdunk though. Hyperdunking is easier to prevent than "standard" ganking because there's less people involved and so less margin for error.
Globby wrote:If there was one antiganker that was in logi for every CODE ganker there is, you would never have freighters die. LOL, so for every F1 monkey in a 2m isk ship, if AGs had an awake competent player in a 20-30m isk ship and someone to get those ships on grid with a gank target at just the right time, and they all run their logi at the right time (it's burst logi, it doesn't last forever), then they can stop a gank. Of course all the gankers need to to is fly to an alternate target and the logi ships would warp too slow to arrive on time even if they realise that was happening. And you still don't understand why there's a difference in difficulty between the two sides of the mechanic?
Globby wrote:Yeah, go figure five guys in relevant ships can't stop a fifty man fleet. It's not quite been that much of a difference, but you'd expect us to at least acknowledge them and bring more guys or upship where needed. But nope.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
984
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 08:47:57 -
[438] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Very realistic assessment in answer to Globby.
So very true your comments, when I started to dabble with AG I did it on the basis of resisting, I was under no illusions in terms of success. Take the last couple of days, the gankers just stacked up with multiple bumpers a large number of targets, there was one I sat with, repped him back up (along with some others) then I was there on my own, with a repper and a catalyst to gank the wreck, they would set up for the warp in, but kept ganking other ships. In the end I had to go pick my wife up, just after I left they ganked it, the loot fairy did the job of my Catalyst thankfully.
It is totally stacked against the AG group as you have quite rightly pointed out, the thing is with that number of bumpers they can even afford to stack up for hyperdunking, which while easy to stop will just result in a gank fleet coming in.
But often the fun is resisting even though its impossible to make much of a dent, because its such a challenge, all the cards are stacked in the favour of the gankers. In any case what it has done is made me get off my backside and have a long look at industry, I merely dabbled to make T1 stuff I needed in NPC 0.0, but I have started to develop what I need for a limited T2 manufacturing operation to meet my own and my corps needs, one must ride that wave...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1268
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 08:54:24 -
[439] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Actually I'll throw in here. I think utilizing hangers of any other ship while suspect or criminal should send the hanger ship suspect. The ability to reship under suspect flag or stash goods while suspect is crazy. I agree. Making stolen goods take the ship suspect would increase conflict and give more things to fight over. But the reason this isn't the case aside from development time, is the continual bubble wrapping of highsec. This change would allow any fleet member to make you go suspect without your knowledge or control. Therefore, it would make fleet hangers very dangerous to use and break the fool-proof nature of the green safety setting.
You could play some tricks linking use of the fleet hanger to the safety setting, but it still won't solve the fundamental problem that the code is unable to track the "stolen" state of the goods so they could just be laundered through a jetcan or mobile depot (or just left in the mobile depot and return 15 minutes later). That change would also make the fleet hanger unusable in say fleet operations without accepting the risk anyone in the fleet could awox you.
Sarah Flynt wrote:Globby wrote:Better to lose a retriever and learn early than lose a charon and lose a lot more. That is very much a matter of perspective. Losing a Retriever in the early days would have been a much bigger loss for me than loosing e.g. a jump freighter nowadays - relatively speaking. This "think of the children" argument is a bit of a red herring. A quick glance at the CODE. killboard shows that their primary targets are overloaded haulers and exhumers, ships only piloted by established players. The majority of ships destroyed belong to established players, like Ima Spyalt there who abuse the free security of highsec to run their industrial operations. The few true new players that get caught tend to get special attention in the form of advice and ISK from gankers, just like PvPers do in every space in Eve.
One of the (many) problems AG seem to share, is the propensity to classify pretty much any player in highsec as a "noob" no matter how long they have been playing the game. You are not a new player if you have been playing this game for six months, even if you want to claim so because you have never done anything else but mine in highsec. Certainly, on the scale of Eve proficiency you are not much better than a two-week old player who jumped right into faction warfare, but you cannot wrap yourself in a "noob" flag forever just because you don't want to compete.
Isolating new players from this core game play of Eve is not healthy nor fair for anyone. As Globby said, eventually they are going to lose a ship - in fact that really is one of the major things Eve is about - so better it be a cheap one early on than one containing multi-months of their effort down the road. Ventures are so cheap they can be replaced in a single load of ore, and even a Retriever loss would only sting if you ignored the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" mantra and lost it an hour after you bought it. Certainly, such rare edge cases are not what ganking should be balanced around and as we heard from CCP Rise, ganking does not cause new players to quit the game in any significant number.
The real problem, and why ganking is in the game, is to provide at least some risk to entitled bears like Ima Spyalt, who use CONCORD to protect their industrial operations at no cost. Without ganking, they could just pour all their capital into industrial ships and use them AFK to completely out-compete the new players. New players should be rewarded for their efforts, while lazy, AFKing established players need to be "discouraged" from griefing the new players in the ice and asteroid belts of highsec via the persuasive power of antimatter.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 08:56:03 -
[440] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:The problem is that the ratcheting up of NPC-enforced security in highsec has gotten to the point criminals cannot fly any ships of consequence. I guess attack battlecruisers (namely taloses and tornados) fall into this category ??
Black Pedro wrote:You start your post with saying how "ganking should stay in the game" and then go on to say that the things that enable ganking should be removed from the game "just because". To qoute you - 'friend' (which I am not to you) I: a) Made no concrete suggestions, it was just thoughts off the top of my head as suggestions would be much more elaborated b) Made no suggestion which would remove ganking from the game (ability to reship in space or travel through stargates under criminal flag would present a nerf to some aspects of ganking but in no way would remove it from the game). BTW, unlike you I'm open to discussion which aspects of current criminal gameplay should be balanced or if they even should be.
Black Pedro wrote:Why do you think it should be made even safer? Because I'd love to soak up on your tears? Would that be an answer you could understand? BTW, you don't have to be a trained psychiatrist to recognize bad behaviour. |
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1268
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 09:29:58 -
[441] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:I guess attack battlecruisers (namely taloses and tornados) fall into this category ?? Sure, they can fly a Talos, but they can't fight you in it because of the faction police. So they are not going to.
Gankers will only fly disposable ships and them only en route to a gank. Anti-gankers already have a massive advantage to stop them in that situation and do kill them from time-to-time, but you are not going to see gankers in any ship worthy of a bounty hunter tracking and killing because the mechanics do not allow them to fly them. These ever-present NPCs are why there is no room for a bounty hunting profession nor any escalation of fights to the point where gankers risk ships of any significance outside of the minimal amount of time to reach a gank target.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Black Pedro wrote:You start your post with saying how "ganking should stay in the game" and then go on to say that the things that enable ganking should be removed from the game "just because". To qoute you - 'friend' (which I am not to you) I: a) Made no concrete suggestions, it was just thoughts off the top of my head as suggestions would be much more elaborated b) Made no suggestion which would remove ganking from the game (ability to reship in space or travel through stargates under criminal flag would present a nerf to some aspects of ganking but in no way would remove it from the game). BTW, unlike you I'm open to discussion which aspects of current criminal gameplay should be balanced or if they even should be. I am slightly hurt. We are all friends of a sort here playing a video game for fun.
I am very open to discuss criminal game play. You don't have to be so sensitive or protective of your ideas.
The reality is criminal game play has be coded into the game by CCP. They spent many person-months of coding time developing the Crimewatch mechanics, CONCORD, the security status system, the faction police and so forth. They are not going to make changes that result in criminals being unable to operate in highsec, certainly not because you claim it "illogical".
Further ganking is pretty balanced. There are few things can be tweaked as always, but a person operating in highsec can be 99.9%+ safe from gankers with only a small amount of effort. All ships are now not profitable to gank, unless their owners do something silly like overload them or really bling them out. Highsec has never been safer from suicide gankers, and it is now nearly impossible to accidentally flag yourself. Why should CCP put more artificial hoops for gankers to jump through to participate in game play they have put in the game on purpose?
If you have some ideas to promote more conflict I would like to hear them. Preventing gankers from traveling or docking is silly and CCP won't do that, but perhaps there is something with deployables or the like that can encourage gankers to put more on the line. But you run back into that first problem that criminals cannot actually defend their stuff in space because of the facpo meaning you would need some more fundamental changes to the criminal mechanics. If you have some ideas, let's hear them.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Why do you think it should be made even safer? Because I'd love to soak up on your tears? Would that be an answer you could understand? BTW, you don't have to be a trained psychiatrist to recognize bad behaviour. That is not a reason likely to convince CCP to make changes. But please, continue to impotently whine about the "pathological" gankers on the forums. I am sure the CCP developers enjoy the taste of your sweet tears as much as the rest of us. |
Yuna Reel
Veritas Group
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 11:42:37 -
[442] - Quote
Globby wrote:Haulers are so dumb and bad at the game that they're basically regarded as PvE content by anti-gankers themselves. I tend to agree with this statement...
All hail Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I! \o/ \o/ \o/
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 12:32:02 -
[443] - Quote
Yuna Reel wrote:Globby wrote:Haulers are so dumb and bad at the game that they're basically regarded as PvE content by anti-gankers themselves. I tend to agree with this statement... All hail Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I! \o/ \o/ \o/
Some certainly are, however - as I've already said, making general statements about any subgroup is usually not a good idea
All hail Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I! |
Mag's
the united
19892
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 12:44:30 -
[444] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Some certainly are, however - as I've already said, making general statements about any subgroup is usually not a good idea So why do it?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 13:40:11 -
[445] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Sure, they can fly a Talos, but they can't fight you in it because of the faction police. So they are not going to. Of course they will not, not only because of the faction police but because that's not what they are after. If you want to do some combat-based pvp (in which you opponent is usually at least expected to shoot back at you) there are numerous better options then ganking. Ganking as a play style is not about 'combat' based pvp at all, its about avoiding it as much as possible (since any real combat will deter you from your true target). Any explanation of the notion of ganking I managed to find is centered on using overwhelming force to beat the enemy without him standing a chance of defense. Hence, talking about inability to pvp while being a dedicated ganker is pointless.
Ganking is about getting kills which take a considerable amount of work in preparation (logistics, finding targets) but fairly little effort to perform the act iteslf. I'm not saying its no effort but it certainly isn't as intense as finding and fighting a small gang engagement in 'proper' pvp. While I respect soloers and small group gankers (hyperdunkers included) the amount of effort per player goes down extremely in large gank groups (like freighter ganks). It is basically null fleet mentality mirrored into hisec - you have FC and maybe two-three other guys who are actively playing the game and the rest are just "F1+spam local" drones. And don't tell me this is a false view of it as I've watched both Burn Amarr stream and Laz Telraven's noob tuesday on ganking. It really is very low effort thing for the majority of participants.
Quote:Anti-gankers already have a massive advantage to stop them in that situation and do kill them from time-to-time...you are not going to see gankers in any ship worthy of a bounty hunter tracking and killing because the mechanics do not allow them to fly them I wouldn't say AG advantage is massive, not with the insta-undocks, fleet warp mechanics as they work atm (looking forward to changes to that I must say), fact that you can't take pre-emptive actions against chars with positive sec status without becoming criminal (not saying you should be able to shoot anyone you wish, to make it clear, just stating a fact) etc. In the current system, you won't see bounty hunters going for folks who had gone criminal in the past or are currently criminals but if the system was to be changed.. who knows. And I've got some ideas about changes regarding both bounties and killrights as well as suspect mechanics and 'player police' all aimed at promoting player interaction without nerfing major aspects of ganking. However, those changes would certainly make ganking harder, so even if I eventually put them here, I'm not sure I'd want to follow the discussion due to all the bloody negativity and spam one gets here instead of healthy discussion.
Black Pedro wrote: The reality is criminal game play has be coded into the game by CCP. They spent many person-months of coding time developing the Crimewatch mechanics, CONCORD, the security status system, the faction police and so forth. They are not going to make changes that result in criminals being unable to operate in highsec, certainly not because you claim it "illogical". Everything has to be coded into te game, the fact that manhours have been spent on something does not mean that it is good or bad per se, as we've so often witnessed. Bouty system in its current itteration is completely pointless in terms of driving player content, that has been discussed on numerous occasions both here, on reddit and elswhere. It is not 'illogical' to me, it is illogical to many folks who have given it a bit of thought. Killrights are pretty much a joke too for anyone who understands how they work and/or negative sec characters. On top of all they are prone to exploitation using insurance scam as this example clearly illustrates (platinum insured orca+moderately priced killright by an alt + bored and silly folks = profit).
Quote:ganking is pretty balanced. Good parts of it are, some things are not (namely - bumping in its current iteration, as previously discussed both here and in other threads; looting; maybe other things too). However, we can always agree to disagree.
Black Pedro wrote:But please, continue to impotently whine about the 'pathological' gankers on the forums. I am sure the CCP developers enjoy the taste of your sweet tears as much as the rest of us. I only used 'tears' narrative since its the trademark of your group (goons/code). I don't think most gankers are pathological, as I clearly stated, only some folks (again - not all) from CODE. Thank you for showing that in the end this is the best you can do (try to insult and provoke an emotional reaction) since that's what a lot of gameplay for some folks is based upon but I don't hink its healthy for the game community or CCP. As for them (CCP) I think they clearly displayed that they can tell good from bad when they reacted to some incidents from the past (CSM removals and permabans come to mind). |
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 13:40:59 -
[446] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Some certainly are, however - as I've already said, making general statements about any subgroup is usually not a good idea So why do it? Please show me where I did it |
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1400
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 14:36:48 -
[447] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Mag's wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Some certainly are, however - as I've already said, making general statements about any subgroup is usually not a good idea So why do it? Please show me where I did it
Quote:Of course they will not, not only because of the faction police but because that's not what they are after
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1268
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 15:17:37 -
[448] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Of course they will not, not only because of the faction police but because that's not what they are after. If you want to do some combat-based pvp (in which you opponent is usually at least expected to shoot back at you) there are numerous better options then ganking. Ganking as a play style is not about 'combat' based pvp at all, its about avoiding it as much as possible (since any real combat will deter you from your true target). Any explanation of the notion of ganking I managed to find is centered on using overwhelming force to beat the enemy without him standing a chance of defense. Hence, talking about inability to pvp while being a dedicated ganker is pointless. You presume much my friend. Gankers function as they do because it is really the only way they can. If you somehow engineered the mechanics so the gankers could actually gain something from risking more assets, why would not some of them choose to do so? I am sure some of them would like the battle the anti-gankers on more even terms, or risk more to go after a more juicier target. Right now though, the punitive and predictable mechanics mean you cannot even accept a fight from "law enforcement" even if you want to, nor is there any point in risking more assets than what you have calculated you need.
The problem as always is balancing this without letting the gankers completely run wild. It's a Catch-22: in order to make bounty hunters/anti-gankers/law enforcement a real profession, you need to buff gankers so they can and will actually fight back. But doing so puts highsec at even more risk. I'd love a solution to this to foster more meaningful conflict between gankers and anti-gankers, but I don't see one right now.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Ganking is about getting kills which take a considerable amount of work in preparation (logistics, finding targets) but fairly little effort to perform the act iteslf. I'm not saying its no effort but it certainly isn't as intense as finding and fighting a small gang engagement in 'proper' pvp. While I respect soloers and small group gankers (hyperdunkers included) the amount of effort per player goes down extremely in large gank groups (like freighter ganks). It is basically null fleet mentality mirrored into hisec - you have FC and maybe two-three other guys who are actively playing the game and the rest are just "F1+spam local" drones. And don't tell me this is a false view of it as I've watched both Burn Amarr stream and Laz Telraven's noob tuesday on ganking. It really is very low effort thing for the majority of participants. Meh, honestly who or what you "respect" isn't relevant. Ganking, especially large fleet ganking requires as much effort as pretty much any PvP fleet. Certainly it is more "effort" than AFK mining or hauling. But what does that have to do with anything?
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:And I've got some ideas about changes regarding both bounties and killrights as well as suspect mechanics and 'player police' all aimed at promoting player interaction without nerfing major aspects of ganking. However, those changes would certainly make ganking harder, so even if I eventually put them here, I'm not sure I'd want to follow the discussion due to all the bloody negativity and spam one gets here instead of healthy discussion. We don't need to make ganking harder or more costly. CCP was already worried about the decreasing levels of suicide ganking in the game in 2012 (CSM Minutes; page 59) and highsec has only got safer since then. Any changes you propose have to make the ganker/anti-ganker dynamic more interesting, not just pile more obstacles or costs on gankers. Criminals are suppose to exist in the game. You are not entitled to shut them all down just because you want to. But please, I am always eager to hear new ideas on how to make the game better.
Black Pedro wrote:I only used 'tears' narrative since its the trademark of your group (goons/code). I don't think most gankers are pathological, as I clearly stated, only some folks (again - not all) from CODE. Thank you for showing that in the end this is the best you can do (try to insult and provoke an emotional reaction) since that's what a lot of gameplay for some folks is based upon but I don't hink its healthy for the game community or CCP. As for them (CCP) I think they clearly displayed that they can tell good from bad when they reacted to some incidents from the past (CSM removals and permabans come to mind). Friend, when you call out me and my CODE. associates as engaging in "pathogical behaviour" for playing the game as space villains, do not expect it to go unchallenged. I will not presume to diagnose you over in the Internet, but I will observe that you seem to have difficulty separating a fictional, online role-playing game universe from reality. Ganking is intended game play and is designed to produce conflict between our characters in the game. But that conflict should stay in-game. If you want to bring it to the forums by calling other players "pathological" and then tell me that you are advocating changes "[b]ecause I'd love to soak up on your tears", don't expect me to stay silent. I am more than happy to engage in this juvenile sparring that you started.
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
193
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 15:37:10 -
[449] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Of course I am not going to risk my main toons on a sec status and kill rights, I do stuff with them, thats why me and others are busy training ganker toons to go after the Macherials and this takes time. My AG Macherial gank toon is still some way away from being operational.
A Macherial fitted for maximum efficiency in terms of bumping is killable by one Talos if the talos pilot is very skilled and is overheating, put a tank module on there and it goes to 2 or 3 depending on the tank modules. Also its a damn mobile target that is hard to pin down
Anti-gankers are doing this to get in the way, they do not have people throwing ISK and resources at them like the gankers, so while the gankers can throw 500m at a gank and just laugh at it as its small change, not so the AG's players...
I thought High Sec Militia reimbursed you guys? |
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 17:48:57 -
[450] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:I only used 'tears' narrative since its the trademark of your group (goons/code). I don't think most gankers are pathological, as I clearly stated, only some folks (again - not all) from CODE. Thank you for showing that in the end this is the best you can do (try to insult and provoke an emotional reaction) since that's what a lot of gameplay for some folks is based upon but I don't hink its healthy for the game community or CCP. As for them (CCP) I think they clearly displayed that they can tell good from bad when they reacted to some incidents from the past (CSM removals and permabans come to mind). Friend, when you call out me and my CODE. associates as engaging in "pathogical behaviour" for playing the game as space villains, do not expect it to go unchallenged. I will not presume to diagnose you over in the Internet, but I will observe that you seem to have difficulty separating a fictional, online role-playing game universe from reality. Ganking is intended game play and is designed to produce conflict between our characters in the game. But that conflict should stay in-game. If you want to bring it to the forums by calling other players "pathological" and then tell me that you are advocating changes "[b]ecause I'd love to soak up on your tears", don't expect me to stay silent. I am more than happy to engage in this juvenile sparring that you started.
Oh well, no matter how many times I emphasize that I'm not against ganking, that I think that folks should learn to suck up their losses in game, that I do my best not to generalise my opinion of some out of game actions by certain individuals from certain groups (namely - bonus rooms, websites mixing in-game and RL information to laugh at folk's losses, alliance panel failures etc.) on the complete ganking population or everyone in CODE or Goons for what it matters, you'll just ignore it try to spin it into some 'you hate all gankers and think we're RL criminals' thing. What can I say, I don't think that, I know this is a computer game and I've clearly made my points. The fact that you're constantly trying to spin my words and can't or will not accept what I'm trying to say simply indicates that trying to discuss something with you is a waste of time. Hence I'll stop. |
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 17:50:09 -
[451] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Mag's wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Some certainly are, however - as I've already said, making general statements about any subgroup is usually not a good idea So why do it? Please show me where I did it Quote:Of course they will not, not only because of the faction police but because that's not what they are after
So you're saying that most gankers are after combat (like - two combat ships type combat) type of pvp? |
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
152
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 21:58:21 -
[452] - Quote
rham i have an idea i'd like to talk to you about at somepoint, i think its a good idea
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Tyranthian
Ms Marvel Corporation
2
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 22:24:18 -
[453] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Of course I am not going to risk my main toons on a sec status and kill rights, I do stuff with them, thats why me and others are busy training ganker toons to go after the Macherials and this takes time. My AG Macherial gank toon is still some way away from being operational.
A Macherial fitted for maximum efficiency in terms of bumping is killable by one Talos if the talos pilot is very skilled and is overheating, put a tank module on there and it goes to 2 or 3 depending on the tank modules. Also its a damn mobile target that is hard to pin down
Anti-gankers are doing this to get in the way, they do not have people throwing ISK and resources at them like the gankers, so while the gankers can throw 500m at a gank and just laugh at it as its small change, not so the AG's players...
I thought High Sec Militia reimbursed you guys?
They only replace certain ships depending on your rank plus they don't allow ganking so they're not going to replace that ship regardless. The only way they can gank someone is if they get special approval to gank a specific target for a specific operation. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13789
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 23:16:23 -
[454] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:]Of course they will not, not only because of the faction police but because that's not what they are after.
Nope, it's pretty much only because of facpo. Not gankers specifically, mind you, but neg ten players in general. If you want to cry about how they fly ships that aren't worth killing, look at the mechanic that forces them to fly disposable ships.
Quote:While I respect soloers and small group gankers (hyperdunkers included) the amount of effort per player goes down extremely in large gank groups (like freighter ganks).
Most of us are dual boxing scouts and/or bumpers on every gate we are watching.
Quote:I wouldn't say AG advantage is massive
I would. All the tricks gankers use are easily countered by a few small things that, if properly executed, the ganker has zero recourse against.
Web your freighter.
Shoot the wreck of the ganked ship.
The gankers can do precisely NOTHING against those things. Ganking does not need nerfed, people just need to actually start playing the game for once. But because it's highsec, they won't. If people actually played the game with more than half their ass, ganking would drop off by 90% or more. In terms of the mechanics themselves, ganking needs drastically buffed.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13789
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 23:33:12 -
[455] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: The problem as always is balancing this without letting the gankers completely run wild. It's a Catch-22: in order to make bounty hunters/anti-gankers/law enforcement a real profession, you need to buff gankers so they can and will actually fight back. But doing so puts highsec at even more risk. I'd love a solution to this to foster more meaningful conflict between gankers and anti-gankers, but I don't see one right now.
Deleting facpo for starters. Faction police should not be attacking anyone not involved in faction warfare, period. Promoting conflict in ganking starts with allowing us outside of stations for more than thirty seconds.
Next, increase Concord response times(meaning, slow them down), but randomly. Leave the minimum levels as they are now, but have an increase between zero and ten seconds before they land on grid. This response time would be announced on grid as soon as the first (and only first, no spamming) criminal flag is activated on grid. Once again, if people want to have more conflict with gankers, then we need to increase the amount of time that we're actually in space.
In lieu of that(or perhaps alongside it), we could also leave their response time the same, but make them temporarily tankable, dealing a set amount of damage that ramps up over time, while also removing their jams. They could still blap small ships quickly, but battleships and battlecruisers would be able to survive for longer and still keep doing damage. If you want to make gankers put more assets out in space/stop flying disposable glass cannons, then making it so that every ship type doesn't die equally quickly to the Magic Space Police accomplishes that, turning the mechanics away from the binary DPS race it is now.
Yes, those things are a buff to ganking. But none of them, and I do mean none of them, do anything to stop the nigh invincible counter of webbing your freighter. That will still remain, and good players still won't get ganked, but the bad players will be ganked more often.
And that's why the carebears will never allow it. Because their view of highsec is one where the NPCs protect you from how bad you are at this game, so your feelings aren't hurt by having to face up to losing. Providing more incentive to the good players clashes with this, because then the carebears have to face up to just how bad they really are at EVE.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1405
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 04:27:07 -
[456] - Quote
I heard wreck HP is being altered to reflect the size of the ship. #gankingbuff
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13793
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 04:39:11 -
[457] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:I heard wreck HP is being altered to reflect the size of the ship. #gankingbuff
If so, that would be hilarious. Parroting some of their usual nonsense, it makes sense to have it that way, because it's "realistic", and by that I mean that it benefits me so I want to justify it however I can.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1405
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 04:41:40 -
[458] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:I heard wreck HP is being altered to reflect the size of the ship. #gankingbuff If so, that would be hilarious. Parroting some of their usual nonsense, it makes sense to have it that way, because it's "realistic", and by that I mean that it benefits me so I want to justify it however I can. The reasoning I heard was something to do with supers and titans wrecks getting popped
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13793
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 04:54:25 -
[459] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:I heard wreck HP is being altered to reflect the size of the ship. #gankingbuff If so, that would be hilarious. Parroting some of their usual nonsense, it makes sense to have it that way, because it's "realistic", and by that I mean that it benefits me so I want to justify it however I can. The reasoning I heard was something to do with supers and titans wrecks getting popped
#smartbombproblems
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2869
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 05:00:29 -
[460] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Deleting facpo for starters. Faction police should not be attacking anyone not involved in faction warfare, period. Promoting conflict in ganking starts with allowing us outside of stations for more than thirty seconds. Faction police are terrible period.
I'm pretty sure you'd see a massive decline in the popularity of large "Casual" highsec wardec alliances, and an approximate increase in faction warfare membership if these intensely annoying NPCs didn't exist to impede the crap out of efforts to do FW pvp in highsec.
I think it's one of that does FW and EVE in general a huge disservice, you have a mechanic that facilitates organized combat between willing participants in highsec? Better have annoying NPCs to make sure it's completely impractical to fight in highsec where it would actually be visible and help to generate interest in PVP for those newbies!
I honestly don't think anyone has anything nice to say about facpo. If they were suddenly gone forever I don't think anyone would miss them. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13803
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 05:08:35 -
[461] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Deleting facpo for starters. Faction police should not be attacking anyone not involved in faction warfare, period. Promoting conflict in ganking starts with allowing us outside of stations for more than thirty seconds. Faction police are terrible period. I'm pretty sure you'd see a massive decline in the popularity of large "Casual" highsec wardec alliances, and an approximate increase in faction warfare membership if these intensely annoying NPCs didn't exist to impede the crap out of efforts to do FW pvp in highsec. I think it's one of that does FW and EVE in general a huge disservice, you have a mechanic that facilitates organized combat between willing participants in highsec? Better have annoying NPCs to make sure it's completely impractical to fight in highsec where it would actually be visible and help to generate interest in PVP for those newbies! I honestly don't think anyone has anything nice to say about facpo. If they were suddenly gone forever I don't think anyone would miss them.
Honestly, I have to agree. I'd think it rather more palatable to remove them piece by piece rather than outright, but I too see no real reason for their existence.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kairos Antilles
Project Kairos The Bastion
61
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 11:48:58 -
[462] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Web your freighter.
....
The gankers can do precisely NOTHING against those things.
I would have to respectfully disagree with that particular one. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
930
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 12:18:58 -
[463] - Quote
Kairos Antilles wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Web your freighter.
....
The gankers can do precisely NOTHING against those things.
I would have to respectfully disagree with that particular one. Are you talking about warp disrupting the freighter with an instalocker? I know you can hold down the freighter like that long enough to get a bump, but what would happen if both the webber and ganker activated their modules on the same tick?
If that's not the tactic you're talking about I'd love to know more. Never heard of a counter besides this one.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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Capt Starfox
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
892
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 14:29:49 -
[464] - Quote
I have to agree with the above post. As a mach bumper webbed Freighters are the most difficult to catch; in fact, they are virtually impossible if done right by the webber/Freighter.
The only real counter I see to this is long point.
The other not very likely is just being lucky when the Freighter breaks gate cloak and the bumper happens to be within <5km to maybe get off a love-tap.
Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2868
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 15:12:45 -
[465] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Further ganking is pretty balanced. There are few things can be tweaked as always, but a person operating in highsec can be 99.9%+ safe from gankers with only a small amount of effort.
Personally, I think it's a sad state of affairs when > 99% safety is considered balanced.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
988
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 06:51:32 -
[466] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Further ganking is pretty balanced. There are few things can be tweaked as always, but a person operating in highsec can be 99.9%+ safe from gankers with only a small amount of effort. Personally, I think it's a sad state of affairs when > 99% safety is considered balanced.
Hisec is not safe, stop being silly facepalm...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2879
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 08:49:09 -
[467] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:admiral root wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Further ganking is pretty balanced. There are few things can be tweaked as always, but a person operating in highsec can be 99.9%+ safe from gankers with only a small amount of effort. Personally, I think it's a sad state of affairs when > 99% safety is considered balanced. Hisec is not safe, stop being silly facepalm...
It's 99.9% safe for me to move a freighter in highsec, but then I have a permit, follow the Code and use a rapier with dual webs Even if I were some weirdo without a permit and not following the Code, I'd still be 99.9% safe with the rapier.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
988
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 11:03:35 -
[468] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Dracvlad wrote:admiral root wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Further ganking is pretty balanced. There are few things can be tweaked as always, but a person operating in highsec can be 99.9%+ safe from gankers with only a small amount of effort. Personally, I think it's a sad state of affairs when > 99% safety is considered balanced. Hisec is not safe, stop being silly facepalm... It's 99.9% safe for me to move a freighter in highsec, but then I have a permit, follow the Code and use a rapier with dual webs Even if I were some weirdo without a permit and not following the Code, I'd still be 99.9% safe with the rapier.
Nothing to do with the permit, you have a Imperiium freighter blue list entry, so you are largely safe as its only really Goon linked entities doing freighter ganks, just every so often you will meet someone doing it for lols, so while you are safe, others do not have that blue list. So you are only speaking for the Imperium blue list, and being all smug and trying to say its something else is fail!
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Mag's
the united
19908
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 13:37:41 -
[469] - Quote
My alt isn't on any list and I've yet to lose my freighter, or full cargo fit BR I've had for years.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13834
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 13:41:13 -
[470] - Quote
Mag's wrote:My alt isn't on any list and I've yet to lose my freighter, or full cargo fit BR I've had for years.
Shh Mag's, he needs to have an excuse, or he'll have to deal with the cognitive dissonance again. Why are you literally torturing him?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
|
Mag's
the united
19908
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 13:43:40 -
[471] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mag's wrote:My alt isn't on any list and I've yet to lose my freighter, or full cargo fit BR I've had for years. Shh Mag's, he needs to have an excuse, or he'll have to deal with the cognitive dissonance again. Why are you literally torturing him? I'm a psychopath, apparently.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13834
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 13:45:23 -
[472] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mag's wrote:My alt isn't on any list and I've yet to lose my freighter, or full cargo fit BR I've had for years. Shh Mag's, he needs to have an excuse, or he'll have to deal with the cognitive dissonance again. Why are you literally torturing him? I'm a psychopath, apparently.
Someone should really make a blog post about you.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Mag's
the united
19909
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 13:48:40 -
[473] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mag's wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mag's wrote:My alt isn't on any list and I've yet to lose my freighter, or full cargo fit BR I've had for years. Shh Mag's, he needs to have an excuse, or he'll have to deal with the cognitive dissonance again. Why are you literally torturing him? I'm a psychopath, apparently. Someone should really make a blog post about you. Ooh, now that would be nice.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
988
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 14:00:55 -
[474] - Quote
Mag's wrote:My alt isn't on any list and I've yet to lose my freighter, or full cargo fit BR I've had for years.
Perhaps if you undock it?
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24462
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 15:05:46 -
[475] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mag's wrote:My alt isn't on any list and I've yet to lose my freighter, or full cargo fit BR I've had for years. Shh Mag's, he needs to have an excuse, or he'll have to deal with the cognitive dissonance again. Why are you literally torturing him? I'm a psychopath, apparently. That's because you have a tea cosy, and you're not afraid to use it.
With reference to the so called bluelist, I'm pretty sure that it doesn't cover the out of corp hauling alts of a group that is loosely associated with Goons through common interests and is open to anyone, including enemies that they would happily shoot in the face if they weren't taking part in the same fleet.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Mag's
the united
19909
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 15:25:29 -
[476] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Mag's wrote:My alt isn't on any list and I've yet to lose my freighter, or full cargo fit BR I've had for years. Perhaps if you undock it? Well I'd have a hard time moving things in them, without doing so. I find it odd, you are unaware of that fact.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
988
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 17:38:14 -
[477] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Mag's wrote:My alt isn't on any list and I've yet to lose my freighter, or full cargo fit BR I've had for years. Perhaps if you undock it? Well I'd have a hard time moving things in them, without doing so. I find it odd, you are unaware of that fact.
All you said is that you have yet to lose them and you have had them for years, you made no mention of your usage pattern, if you don't undock them then they are not at risk, so the simple question is how often do you use them, once a month, once a week, every day. Another key part of the data is whether you use it traversing the pipes.
You are making a point by using a one liner, and by your comments on various threads I cannot quite see you as someone who is hauling or mining a lot for example, so if you said that you had never lost a mining ship that would equally be irrelevant
My freighter gets used once every two weeks on average at this point in time and it does not normally go through the main pipes, I also web it when I use it, same for the Orca that is used once a week. Could I even compare myself to those people who move goods between Jita and Gallente space via Uedama for example who must make that trip once a day, are they 99.97% safe in what they are doing, no.
Imprecise statements are valueless, simple as that.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
585
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 17:41:57 -
[478] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Mag's wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Mag's wrote:My alt isn't on any list and I've yet to lose my freighter, or full cargo fit BR I've had for years. Perhaps if you undock it? Well I'd have a hard time moving things in them, without doing so. I find it odd, you are unaware of that fact. All you said is that you have yet to lose them and you have had them for years, you made no mention of your usage pattern, if you don't undock them then they are not at risk, so the simple question is how often do you use them, once a month, once a week, every day. Another key part of the data is whether you use it traversing the pipes. You are making a point by using a one liner, and by your comments on various threads I cannot quite see you as someone who is hauling or mining a lot for example, so if you said that you had never lost a mining ship that would equally be irrelevant My freighter gets used once every two weeks on average at this point in time and it does not normally go through the main pipes, I also web it when I use it, same for the Orca that is used once a week. Could I even compare myself to those people who move goods between Jita and Gallente space via Uedama for example who must make that trip once a day, are they 99.97% safe in what they are doing, no. Imprecise statements are valueless, simple as that.
Words upon words of tripe unrelated to anything is valueless. Next time, pick a better strawman.
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
|
Vivien Meally
Des-Meisters-Lakaien Phoenix Company Alliance
85
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 17:47:42 -
[479] - Quote
Hello, how can i join the Gank Party?
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
988
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 18:10:50 -
[480] - Quote
Freya Sertan wrote:Words upon words of tripe unrelated to anything is valueless. Next time, pick a better strawman.
Come back when you have killed something in game...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
157
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 19:18:13 -
[481] - Quote
Dracvlad, if you web your freighter you expose yourself to bumps for less than three seconds. It is impossible to be bumped in that time by a Macharial on a gate.
The only time you would die is if you were suicide pointed by someone, and then bumped, which as a tally is less than 1% of our kills of all freighters total.
99% safety isn't enough for you I guess. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
988
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 19:41:04 -
[482] - Quote
Globby wrote:Dracvlad, if you web your freighter you expose yourself to bumps for less than three seconds. It is impossible to be bumped in that time by a Macharial on a gate.
The only time you would die is if you were suicide pointed by someone, and then bumped, which as a tally is less than 1% of our kills of all freighters total.
99% safety isn't enough for you I guess.
Its not less than three seconds, its more, when I do it I get it into warp as soon as it hits quarter speed.I get to about 6 seconds from uncloaking until in warp, 5 seconds if perfect. And yes it is very difficult to get caught with those times, and I am using a Loki with twin faction webs.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Siegfried Cohenberg
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 20:45:16 -
[483] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Globby wrote:Dracvlad, if you web your freighter you expose yourself to bumps for less than three seconds. It is impossible to be bumped in that time by a Macharial on a gate.
The only time you would die is if you were suicide pointed by someone, and then bumped, which as a tally is less than 1% of our kills of all freighters total.
99% safety isn't enough for you I guess. Its not less than three seconds, its more, when I do it I get it into warp as soon as it hits quarter speed.I get to about 6 seconds from uncloaking until in warp, 5 seconds if perfect. And yes it is very difficult to get caught with those times, and I am using a Loki with twin faction webs.
I can get 3 tick webs with a t1 frigate. Maybe you're slow. |
Sarah Flynt
106
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 21:30:01 -
[484] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Globby wrote:Dracvlad, if you web your freighter you expose yourself to bumps for less than three seconds. It is impossible to be bumped in that time by a Macharial on a gate.
The only time you would die is if you were suicide pointed by someone, and then bumped, which as a tally is less than 1% of our kills of all freighters total.
99% safety isn't enough for you I guess. Its not less than three seconds, its more, when I do it I get it into warp as soon as it hits quarter speed.I get to about 6 seconds from uncloaking until in warp, 5 seconds if perfect. And yes it is very difficult to get caught with those times, and I am using a Loki with twin faction webs. Fit Inertial Stabilizers to have it instantly warp without waiting for 25% speed. Tank is useless anyway these days.
Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
|
Alana Charen-Teng
Vatlaa Corporation
632
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 05:33:23 -
[485] - Quote
Confirming that the New Order is awesome and victorious!!! |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
994
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 05:46:14 -
[486] - Quote
Sarah Flynt wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Globby wrote:Dracvlad, if you web your freighter you expose yourself to bumps for less than three seconds. It is impossible to be bumped in that time by a Macharial on a gate.
The only time you would die is if you were suicide pointed by someone, and then bumped, which as a tally is less than 1% of our kills of all freighters total.
99% safety isn't enough for you I guess. Its not less than three seconds, its more, when I do it I get it into warp as soon as it hits quarter speed.I get to about 6 seconds from uncloaking until in warp, 5 seconds if perfect. And yes it is very difficult to get caught with those times, and I am using a Loki with twin faction webs. Fit Inertial Stabilizers to have it instantly warp without waiting for 25% speed. Tank is useless anyway these days.
And you are correct, I have three bulkheads on the Charon, I was wondering if the Gankers would suss it out, but they just threw an insult which made them look silly while you one of the Anti-Gankers sussed it out completely.
Talking about skill, getting it out in 5 seconds with three bulkheads was actually very very good, but they could not bring themselves to acknowledge that and that was funny...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Sarah Flynt
108
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 13:07:55 -
[487] - Quote
Globby wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:No you haven't, you've literally just said it. And according to miniluv they are self-funded. The proof is in your actions, if you weren't making any isk, you'd not be doing lol ganks on empty ships. You still don't know where miniluv gets it's money I see. Ask Warr Akini about his 12 ratting carriers in Deklein please. Ask him how he funds miniluv by himself. Globby wrote:Like as an example, you said miniluv was self funded and you touted that as a victory. Yes, it's self funded, by Warr Akini because he rats six hours a day on twelve accounts to fund us. versus
Warr Akini wrote:But, in sheer numbers killed and in its self-sufficiency, Miniluv has created a model and a success that is unparalleled (and now being employed by our friends in CODE).
[...]
Please point me to an organization that can achieve such mayhem in a single month in EVE and remain financially stable (did you know that Miniluv is entirely self-sufficient even though it has the highest asset turnover of any other group in the Imperium?) Arrendis wrote:What's next for the Ministry he established and guided has yet to be seen. It may well endure and hold to the tradition of being a massive, efficient, self-financing organization that lines the pockets of its pilots with ill-gotten gains. Emphasis is mine. The latter quotes are taken from Warr Akini's recent self-adulation speeches: https://www.themittani.com/news/fires-warr-burn-out-warr-akini
I'll leave the conclusion to the educated reader.
Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
174
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 14:11:49 -
[488] - Quote
Warr Akini wrote:But, in sheer numbers killed and in its self-sufficiency, Miniluv has created a model and a success that is unparalleled (and now being employed by our friends in CODE). Please point me to an organization that can achieve such mayhem in a single month in EVE and remain financially stable (did you know that Miniluv is entirely self-sufficient even though it has the highest asset turnover of any other group in the Imperium?) Arrendis wrote:What's next for the Ministry he established and guided has yet to be seen. It may well endure and hold to the tradition of being a massive, efficient, self-financing organization that lines the pockets of its pilots with ill-gotten gains.
Sarah Flynt wrote:Emphasis is mine. The latter quotes are taken from Warr Akini's recent self-adulation speeches: I'll leave the conclusion to the educated reader.
Self-funded != profitable ganking.
There are a couple cases when profit is made: -Jita chases, where we scan for the 10-20b+ freighters. This doesn't happen every day, in fact we'd be lucky to find a 20b+ freighter once a week. Of course this is going to be profitable because we're incredibly selective in our target acquisition. This is where a lot of our ganking profit comes from. -Burn events. Having 50+ DPS in a fleet lets us use cheaper and cheaper ships but still get the same DPS, which makes our ganks more efficient. We also don't have anti-gankers the entire time, so we're able to scoop loot when they've given up and asleep, and when ganks are that cheap it's hard not to make a profit.
Standard fleets, the ones that make up 80%+ of freighter losses are not long term profitable. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
937
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 15:05:11 -
[489] - Quote
In my support of the fight against bot aspirancy, I hereby request that The New Order conducts an investigation into the bot aspirant activities of Warr Akini. It is rumored that this particular pilot and his alts over-rat by an average of 6 hours a day! While nullsec itself is not within the purview of The New Order, in this case we have clear evidence that the proceeds made from this absurdity are being used to conduct business in highsec.
Worse yet it appears the business conducted in highsec is of a highly nefarious nature. Onlookers have noted that Miniluv forces consistently allow AFK and bot aspirant freighter pilots to pass through unimpeded. Leaked memos from one Agent Globby suggest that their interest is in the selective targeting of profitable cargos. In other words, after 6 hours a day of AFK ratting, it's still all about the ISK. Typical carebears!
Save highsec; gank Warr Akini's ratting supers.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
175
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 16:11:07 -
[490] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:In my support of the fight against bot aspirancy, I hereby request that The New Order conducts an investigation into the bot aspirant activities of Warr Akini. It is rumored that this particular pilot and his alts over-rat by an average of 6 hours a day! While nullsec itself is not within the purview of The New Order, in this case we have clear evidence that the proceeds made from this absurdity are being used to conduct business in highsec.
Worse yet it appears the business conducted in highsec is of a highly nefarious nature. Onlookers have noted that Miniluv forces consistently allow AFK and bot aspirant freighter pilots to pass through unimpeded. Leaked memos from one Agent Globby suggest that their interest is in the selective targeting of profitable cargos. In other words, after 6 hours a day of AFK ratting, it's still all about the ISK. Typical carebears!
Save highsec; gank Warr Akini's ratting supers.
Send this to James 315, you will get his response. |
|
Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
586
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 16:52:35 -
[491] - Quote
I have. Many things, actually. You mean other players? Not on this toon.
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
|
Leto Thule
Origin. Black Legion.
3123
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 17:03:21 -
[492] - Quote
I haven't bothered to read the thread, however based on the title I'll provide the only answer that matters.
The punishment for unlawful aggression is loss of the ship you are flying under GCC and a reduction in security status. Working as intended, and doesn't need to be anything more.
If you get ganked, learn from it instead of crying. Apply said lesson. No more problems.
End.
Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1434
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 17:08:57 -
[493] - Quote
Globby wrote:McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:In my support of the fight against bot aspirancy, I hereby request that The New Order conducts an investigation into the bot aspirant activities of Warr Akini. It is rumored that this particular pilot and his alts over-rat by an average of 6 hours a day! While nullsec itself is not within the purview of The New Order, in this case we have clear evidence that the proceeds made from this absurdity are being used to conduct business in highsec.
Worse yet it appears the business conducted in highsec is of a highly nefarious nature. Onlookers have noted that Miniluv forces consistently allow AFK and bot aspirant freighter pilots to pass through unimpeded. Leaked memos from one Agent Globby suggest that their interest is in the selective targeting of profitable cargos. In other words, after 6 hours a day of AFK ratting, it's still all about the ISK. Typical carebears!
Save highsec; gank Warr Akini's ratting supers. Send this to James 315, you will get his response. +1send and post response
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
[s]ISD Dorrim Barstorlode favourite ISD[/s]
|
Tengu Grib
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
1284
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 19:41:27 -
[494] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Globby wrote:Dracvlad, if you web your freighter you expose yourself to bumps for less than three seconds. It is impossible to be bumped in that time by a Macharial on a gate.
The only time you would die is if you were suicide pointed by someone, and then bumped, which as a tally is less than 1% of our kills of all freighters total.
99% safety isn't enough for you I guess. Its not less than three seconds, its more, when I do it I get it into warp as soon as it hits quarter speed.I get to about 6 seconds from uncloaking until in warp, 5 seconds if perfect. And yes it is very difficult to get caught with those times, and I am using a Loki with twin faction webs.
Use a daredevil instead. Works way better.
Special thanks to Carlvagio for being a cool bro and financing fun activities.
StonerPhReak> Being an adult sucks.
|
Lady Areola Fappington
2660
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 20:59:12 -
[495] - Quote
Globby wrote: Self-funded != profitable ganking.
There are a couple cases when profit is made: -Jita chases, where we scan for the 10-20b+ freighters. This doesn't happen every day, in fact we'd be lucky to find a 20b+ freighter once a week. Of course this is going to be profitable because we're incredibly selective in our target acquisition. This is where a lot of our ganking profit comes from. -Burn events. Having 50+ DPS in a fleet lets us use cheaper and cheaper ships but still get the same DPS, which makes our ganks more efficient. We also don't have anti-gankers the entire time, so we're able to scoop loot when they've given up and asleep, and when ganks are that cheap it's hard not to make a profit.
Standard fleets, the ones that make up 80%+ of freighter losses are not long term profitable.
Allow me to relate this in a way the carebears can understand, Globby. I am the hisec whisperer, afterall.
Think of it like running missions, my bearish friends.
Ganking freighters for profit is like speedrunning level4s for ISK/LP. It's efficient as all get out, but it can get boring. Standard freighter ganking for CODE is like running a lvl 4, then stopping to salvage and loot all the drops. Sure, it's utterly inefficient, but it's a lot less boring than rushing lvl4s for ISK.
It's not fun waiting 30-45 minutes for a profitable freighter to wander by, just like it's not fun grinding missions highspeed for ISK.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
|
Substantia Nigra
Bad at EVE
1430
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 03:22:41 -
[496] - Quote
I am not a bad person, but I really enjoyed my several periods of hisec ganking. I have not enjoyed at all my several getting-ganked experiences, and did not enjoy the ransom scams that occurred when our fleets had targets bump-captured. I cannot imagine doing it long-term (yawn) but it does make for an interesting eve-diversion from time to time.
Having been away for a little while I'd never heard of CODE but looked them up and now understand that they're a recent miniluv knockoff copycat wannabe group. I gather from the OP that they're doing ok ... so will now have to keep an eye out for them as i fly expensive toys around hisec.
Irrespective of the type of ganking I found it to be technically demanding, gameplay savvy intensive, and a heckuvalot of fun. I flew either solo or with miniluv and even today find myself chuckling at memories of the mad scramble when a 15b isk 'whale' came onto the radar, or when we fail-ganked due to lack of numbers or poor fleet discipline. My solo laughable miner-gank attempts still see me cringing quietly.
Last night I saw a blinged-out BS get ganked near Uedama. FFS, he was autopiloting a very expensively fit ship (active tank elements no use at all when AP travelling) through notorious ganking systems.
IDK, I see nothing morally repugnant in eve ganking. It is just part of the game (like whining about ganking) and it adds an interesting additional dimension for players to engage in. Like every part of eve ganking has its counter, and that is mostly sensible game play. As the recent miniluv posting on TMC noted the numbers of whales has dropped markedly as players respond to ganking ... but they have not disappeared entirely.
I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder.
Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
995
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 06:17:12 -
[497] - Quote
Freya Sertan wrote:I have. Many things, actually. You mean other players? Not on this toon.
Obligatory post with your main reply, ye gods another boring forum alt, who would have guessed it...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
995
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 06:25:37 -
[498] - Quote
Tengu Grib wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Globby wrote:Dracvlad, if you web your freighter you expose yourself to bumps for less than three seconds. It is impossible to be bumped in that time by a Macharial on a gate.
The only time you would die is if you were suicide pointed by someone, and then bumped, which as a tally is less than 1% of our kills of all freighters total.
99% safety isn't enough for you I guess. Its not less than three seconds, its more, when I do it I get it into warp as soon as it hits quarter speed.I get to about 6 seconds from uncloaking until in warp, 5 seconds if perfect. And yes it is very difficult to get caught with those times, and I am using a Loki with twin faction webs. Use a daredevil instead. Works way better.
Yeah could do that, however I have now left hisec and am having fun again in 0.0
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Sarah Flynt
108
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 14:50:11 -
[499] - Quote
Globby wrote:Self-funded != profitable ganking.
There are a couple cases when profit is made: -Jita chases, where we scan for the 10-20b+ freighters. This doesn't happen every day, in fact we'd be lucky to find a 20b+ freighter once a week. Of course this is going to be profitable because we're incredibly selective in our target acquisition. This is where a lot of our ganking profit comes from. -Burn events. Having 50+ DPS in a fleet lets us use cheaper and cheaper ships but still get the same DPS, which makes our ganks more efficient. We also don't have anti-gankers the entire time, so we're able to scoop loot when they've given up and asleep, and when ganks are that cheap it's hard not to make a profit.
Standard fleets, the ones that make up 80%+ of freighter losses are not long term profitable. So you're claiming freighter ganking isn't profitable because of your terrible target selection. Yeah. Right. Makes total sense ...
Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
|
Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
587
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 14:54:00 -
[500] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Freya Sertan wrote:I have. Many things, actually. You mean other players? Not on this toon. Obligatory post with your main reply, ye gods another boring forum alt, who would have guessed it...
This is my main you dunce. Ask anyone here in C&P, I've stated it many times.
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
|
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1257
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 15:07:31 -
[501] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Capt Starfox wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Captain obvious.... er Starfox
I did take them on the out gate. I think I mentioned I was in an enyo? There are a lot of HP to chew through. It could just crawl back to the gate and jump while I worked on it w/out bumping.
As to the other things. Our opinions differ. I can agree to disagree and leave it at that. We could both spend hours here w/ point and counter point, make up examples and justify anything. This isn't what I would call a new argument in eve.
OP - way wrong to the point where his ideas would break eve
Me - the perfect balance that would end in eve nirvana for all (google "perfection" you'll see my portrait and life story)
You - Well, puppies grow up, learn their manners and eventually behave like they are suposed to (I'm patient, you'll get there)
So you didn't fit a web on your Enyo, why? Prop, scram, web. if it was fit for killing mission bears it was likely active tanked with a cap booster and a neut in the spare
Sigh, the enyo used to only have 2 midslots. I think that should be explanation enough for you two fitting wizards. |
Mag's
the united
19916
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 16:48:42 -
[502] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Mag's wrote:Well I'd have a hard time moving things in them, without doing so. I find it odd, you are unaware of that fact. All you said is that you have yet to lose them and you have had them for years, you made no mention of your usage pattern, if you don't undock them then they are not at risk, so the simple question is how often do you use them, once a month, once a week, every day. Another key part of the data is whether you use it traversing the pipes. You are making a point by using a one liner, and by your comments on various threads I cannot quite see you as someone who is hauling or mining a lot for example, so if you said that you had never lost a mining ship that would equally be irrelevant My freighter gets used once every two weeks on average at this point in time and it does not normally go through the main pipes, I also web it when I use it, same for the Orca that is used once a week. Could I even compare myself to those people who move goods between Jita and Gallente space via Uedama for example who must make that trip once a day, are they 99.97% safe in what they are doing, no. Imprecise statements are valueless, simple as that. The discussion was regarding the use of those ships and the fact that some had protection due to their blue status. Considering you frequent these boards on a regular basis, I find it odd you couldn't follow the discussion. I'm not one for buying freighters or BR's and not using them. But if that floats your boat, good for you. Personally it makes no sense.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
997
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 21:07:44 -
[503] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Mag's wrote:Well I'd have a hard time moving things in them, without doing so. I find it odd, you are unaware of that fact. All you said is that you have yet to lose them and you have had them for years, you made no mention of your usage pattern, if you don't undock them then they are not at risk, so the simple question is how often do you use them, once a month, once a week, every day. Another key part of the data is whether you use it traversing the pipes. You are making a point by using a one liner, and by your comments on various threads I cannot quite see you as someone who is hauling or mining a lot for example, so if you said that you had never lost a mining ship that would equally be irrelevant My freighter gets used once every two weeks on average at this point in time and it does not normally go through the main pipes, I also web it when I use it, same for the Orca that is used once a week. Could I even compare myself to those people who move goods between Jita and Gallente space via Uedama for example who must make that trip once a day, are they 99.97% safe in what they are doing, no. Imprecise statements are valueless, simple as that. The discussion was regarding the use of those ships and the fact that some had protection due to their blue status. Considering you frequent these boards on a regular basis, I find it odd you couldn't follow the discussion. I'm not one for buying freighters or BR's and not using them. But if that floats your boat, good for you. Personally it makes no sense.
OK so it makes no sense to you, fair enough. Now where is another dead horse I can flog, ahh Freya Sertan thats another dead horse, perhaps better described as a dead donkey. In fact it was me pointing out the Goon blue list, please keep up, lol
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
587
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 21:55:02 -
[504] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
OK so it makes no sense to you, fair enough. Now where is another dead horse I can flog, ahh Freya Sertan thats another dead horse, perhaps better described as a dead donkey. In fact it was me pointing out the Goon blue list, please keep up, lol
Alright, so this is our first actual interaction and you go this way with it. I see why you're as well liked as you are. I think it's pretty funny actually. Tossing out word salad doesn't make you smart and using insults doesn't have the effect you might hope it does.
Ah well. Back to your whole "kill something" idea... remind me again how a killboard relates to knowledge of a game?
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24482
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 23:41:21 -
[505] - Quote
Freya Sertan wrote:Ah well. Back to your whole "kill something" idea... remind me again how a killboard relates to knowledge of a game? According to Dracvlad a killboard is the most basic measure of success in Eve, if you don't have one you fail at Eve.
I had this discussion with him a while back, seemingly someone with no killboard appearances at all has no place talking about how to minimise the chances of appearing on a killboard or any other aspect of PvP.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
591
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 00:02:14 -
[506] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Freya Sertan wrote:Ah well. Back to your whole "kill something" idea... remind me again how a killboard relates to knowledge of a game? According to Dracvlad a killboard is the most basic measure of success in Eve, if you don't have one you fail at Eve. I had this discussion with him a while back, seemingly someone with no killboard appearances at all has no place talking about how to minimise the chances of appearing on a killboard or any other aspect of PvP.
I see. I had no idea I was so terrible at EvE. I would feel bad but my fun/HR is through the roof.
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
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Valkin Mordirc
1310
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 00:09:16 -
[507] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Freya Sertan wrote:Ah well. Back to your whole "kill something" idea... remind me again how a killboard relates to knowledge of a game? According to Dracvlad a killboard is the most basic measure of success in Eve, if you don't have one you fail at Eve. I had this discussion with him a while back, seemingly someone with no killboard appearances at all has no place talking about how to minimise the chances of appearing on a killboard or any other aspect of PvP.
If he believes that he must not be very happy with his EVE life. The first page of his kills have Concord all over them.
#DeleteTheWeak
|
Leto Thule
Origin. Black Legion.
3133
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 00:33:07 -
[508] - Quote
Killboards are the worst thing to happen to EVE.
Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
997
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 06:33:39 -
[509] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Freya Sertan wrote:Ah well. Back to your whole "kill something" idea... remind me again how a killboard relates to knowledge of a game? According to Dracvlad a killboard is the most basic measure of success in Eve, if you don't have one you fail at Eve. I had this discussion with him a while back, seemingly someone with no killboard appearances at all has no place talking about how to minimise the chances of appearing on a killboard or any other aspect of PvP. If he believes that he must not be very happy with his EVE life. The first page of his kills have Concord all over them.
That's because I was doing anti-ganking stuff, doh my brain hurts, but I am now back in Stain shooting mad Russians, basically people who shoot back, impressive isn't it? Attention span of a gnat requires you to check back a few pages more, but never mind...
Generally people of the HTFU community go on about what they call bears as if they have no idea at all about the game, a killboard on a main often indicates that they have been partaking of the game, be it kills and losses and I have both, so when someone without any kills or losses starts going off on the game mechanics on his main I merely asked him if he had the experience to make such judgements.
At least you Valkin have a killboard and of course I know it means nothing much, but it is possible to read a killboard, you know start looking at the kills, see what type of fleet the players was in look for smal gang stuff or solo stuff, get a feel for what they can do, its totally possible to do that and look behind the numbers, but then again you have a killboard that I can do that to, the other two here don't. Jonah proved to me that he has a certain knowledge of the game, but I still weight his words less than say yours with a vibrant killboard with plenty of interesting stuff in it.
In terms of the subject matter of this thread, I tried the AG stuff and found it easy to stop hyperdunking as long as we had intel on people being bumped, but difficult to stop full on ganks, the best approach is simply to blow up the wreck before it can be scooped. I did this to gain the experience to comment on it, might be new ideas for you guys but it gave me a good understanding even if I misunderstood some mechanics because I was observing them rather than testing them.
From my observations it is evident that the hisec punishment applied to gankers is inadequate and needs adjustment, and I can say that because I got involved. Now I am off back in 0.0 to have fun doing small gang stuff again, you do know that I can comment on this too, juist like you, but the other two, maybe not...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1441
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 11:06:30 -
[510] - Quote
Leto Thule wrote:Killboards are the worst thing to happen to EVE. Efficiency on killboards is the worst thing to happen to eve. I like the idea of them as an intel gathering tool
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
[s]ISD Dorrim Barstorlode favourite ISD[/s]
|
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Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
608
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 14:01:21 -
[511] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Generally people of the HTFU community go on about what they call bears as if they have no idea at all about the game, a killboard on a main often indicates that they have been partaking of the game, be it kills and losses and I have both, so when someone without any kills or losses starts going off on the game mechanics on his main I merely asked him if he had the experience to make such judgements.
Dracvlad wrote: ahh Freya Sertan thats another dead horse, perhaps better described as a dead donkey.
I merely asked him if he had the experience to make such judgements.
Really?
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
|
Mag's
the united
19922
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 14:14:41 -
[512] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:From my observations it is evident that the hisec punishment applied to gankers is inadequate and needs adjustment 'Just one more nerf and it will be balanced.'
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
944
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 14:20:11 -
[513] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Leto Thule wrote:Killboards are the worst thing to happen to EVE. Efficiency on killboards is the worst thing to happen to eve. I like the idea of them as an intel gathering tool Problem is the repercussions they have on player mentality. It's inevitable, because humans.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1264
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 15:18:58 -
[514] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Leto Thule wrote:Killboards are the worst thing to happen to EVE. Efficiency on killboards is the worst thing to happen to eve. I like the idea of them as an intel gathering tool Problem is the repercussions they have on player mentality. It's inevitable, because humans.
Humans ruin everything. KBs are fine. They are a record. Just because there are delusional eve players that read way to much into them doesn't make them bad.
KB is a record. That some folks put too much emphasis on them isn't great, but all the details paint a picture. My kb is my pvp history. You can tell what I fly, who I fly with, where and when. You can see that I take risks and enjoy combat for the sake of explosions. You can see that sometimes I gank total strangers and that sometimes I use concord as a broker to trade my ship for someone elses.
You can also see what I am not. I'm no Vimsy - I'll take bait just to see if it still tastes good - winning/losing is secondary at best. I don't gank noobs and corrode the game and then quote some deep immersion role player BS like CODE. I don't sit on hub undocks and shoot fish as they come out of the barrel like Marmites. You can look at my kb and read me like a cheap comic book.
I like that. I like that I can look at other folks and make decisions based on what they have or haven't done.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
997
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 15:48:00 -
[515] - Quote
Freya Sertan wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Generally people of the HTFU community go on about what they call bears as if they have no idea at all about the game, a killboard on a main often indicates that they have been partaking of the game, be it kills and losses and I have both, so when someone without any kills or losses starts going off on the game mechanics on his main I merely asked him if he had the experience to make such judgements.
Dracvlad wrote: ahh Freya Sertan thats another dead horse, perhaps better described as a dead donkey.
I merely asked him if he had the experience to make such judgements.Really?
I was referring to Jonah, as you have losses on your KB.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Leto Thule
Origin. Black Legion.
3141
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 16:23:42 -
[516] - Quote
Killboards aren't a record of ALL types of pvp. They don't show ransoms, they don't show ships built, ore mined, items stolen, corps infiltrated, or many other types of PVP. It doesn't show sites explored, scams completed, recruits hired, or blueprints researched.it doesn't show ships saved from logistics. No LP gained.
You see the trend?
The human problem, as you are correct in pointing out, have come to value a pilot based on killboard stats. Therefore, more players focus on KB stats over making isk or content. The value is only as much as the player base makes it.
Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
|
Paranoid Loyd
6422
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 16:41:03 -
[517] - Quote
Heh, my lowsec noob has a kb that displays 0-8 and looks completely incompetent at a glance, I assure you she is not.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
|
Hadrian Blackstone
Yamato Holdings
157
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 16:59:06 -
[518] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Leto Thule wrote:Killboards are the worst thing to happen to EVE. Efficiency on killboards is the worst thing to happen to eve. I like the idea of them as an intel gathering tool Problem is the repercussions they have on player mentality. It's inevitable, because humans.
It leads to crap like this.
https://zkillboard.com/character/720371319/
For the love of god. |
Freya Sertan
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
611
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 17:10:06 -
[519] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Freya Sertan wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Generally people of the HTFU community go on about what they call bears as if they have no idea at all about the game, a killboard on a main often indicates that they have been partaking of the game, be it kills and losses and I have both, so when someone without any kills or losses starts going off on the game mechanics on his main I merely asked him if he had the experience to make such judgements.
Dracvlad wrote: ahh Freya Sertan thats another dead horse, perhaps better described as a dead donkey.
I merely asked him if he had the experience to make such judgements.Really? I was referring to Jonah, as you have losses on your KB, still at the end of my exchange with Jonah I did acknowledge that he had a certain level of knowledge but for me the value of what he said was diluted, but I still will read his views. You on the other hand are out and about doing stuff but you have limited experience, and yet you make sarky comments, so I just pointed out that you ain't going to be taken serious if you have a KB that compares to what you refer as a bear. I suggested that you should go get some kills... Freya Sertan wrote:Words upon words of tripe unrelated to anything is valueless. Next time, pick a better strawman. Come back when you have killed something in game...
And everyone else, along with myself, suggested to you that KBs mean less than nothing when it comes to knowledge of a game/playstyle. You assume that since I have no kills on a KB that I am unversed in PVP or EvE in general to such an extent that I cannot offer any opposing words to your obviously wrong standpoint.
...'kay. That tells me all I need to know. Well that and the ridiculous 315315 bounty you gave me in game. I'm still pissed about that ******* up my 133,333,337 bounty.
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13887
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 23:19:57 -
[520] - Quote
Leto Thule wrote: The human problem, as you are correct in pointing out, have come to value a pilot based on killboard stats.
He doesn't actually do that, though. It's merely the latest example of his hypocrisy. It's his attempt to devalue people who do a lot of activity on alts, such as most gankers.
Meanwhile, if he actually valued killboards even a fifth as much as he claims he does, he would bow down and worship TCE. But he's just a hypocrite trying to troll his betters.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
|
John E Normus
The Conference Elite CODE.
613
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 01:37:03 -
[521] - Quote
Leto Thule wrote:Killboards aren't a record of ALL types of pvp. They don't show ransoms, they don't show ships built, ore mined, items stolen, corps infiltrated, or many other types of PVP. It doesn't show sites explored, scams completed, recruits hired, or blueprints researched.it doesn't show ships saved from logistics. No LP gained.
You see the trend?
The human problem, as you are correct in pointing out, have come to value a pilot based on killboard stats. Therefore, more players focus on KB stats over making isk or content. The value is only as much as the player base makes it.
Bingo, love you long time!
Between Ignorance and Wisdom
|
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 02:22:59 -
[522] - Quote
a hisec ganker loses their ship to CONCORD.
the punishment is appropriate.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
|
V1r4L B00sh
Kill Them With Kindness
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 05:43:17 -
[523] - Quote
If people didn't want to lose their ships in PvP, they shouldn't have played a game where PvP is unavoidable.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48167885/
I don't even feel bad. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
999
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 06:25:04 -
[524] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Leto Thule wrote: The human problem, as you are correct in pointing out, have come to value a pilot based on killboard stats.
He doesn't actually do that, though. It's merely the latest example of his hypocrisy. It's his attempt to devalue people who do a lot of activity on alts, such as most gankers. Meanwhile, if he actually valued killboards even a fifth as much as he claims he does, he would bow down and worship TCE. But he's just a hypocrite trying to troll his betters.
Having you call me a hypocrite is a compliment, you last undocked 30th May, impressive...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
999
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 06:40:46 -
[525] - Quote
John E Normus wrote:Leto Thule wrote:Killboards aren't a record of ALL types of pvp. They don't show ransoms, they don't show ships built, ore mined, items stolen, corps infiltrated, or many other types of PVP. It doesn't show sites explored, scams completed, recruits hired, or blueprints researched.it doesn't show ships saved from logistics. No LP gained.
You see the trend?
The human problem, as you are correct in pointing out, have come to value a pilot based on killboard stats. Therefore, more players focus on KB stats over making isk or content. The value is only as much as the player base makes it.
Bingo, love you long time!
So you don't think going deeper into the kills looking at the fleet composition and working back the likely situation and fleet setup is worthwhile, actually yeah, because you don't have any value in doing that as you are gankers, you are shooting things that don't fight back, case closed.
As for Leto, some of that other data can be obtained by observation, some by checking the net, people like to brag you know, it really depends what you want to do. Pretty obvious stuff to me, I am doing this at the moment to assess an area I want to move into, get to know who I am going to kill and what resources they are likely to have. Its called intelligence work by the way... I rather like doing it actually because its a challenge at times...
During my observation of War Akini, I noticed a number of very specific hits on certain traders, Miniluv certainly do it very well, but would you expect otherwise?
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Crest Zah Donartal
Bluenose Corporation
674
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 10:29:46 -
[526] - Quote
Oh, how I hate them, all these killers, murderers, scammers, thieves, awoxers, spies, traitors, gankers, wardeccers, discounters, competitors of all kinds, Codies and their mining permit ...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut.................................................................... but what would the game be without them? how empty and desolate would New Eden be without them ... how boring would be the gameplay, and much more important ...how would I fetch my daily shot of adrenaline, when EVE would degenerate into Ponypark.
Can you tell me? |
Don Purple
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1275
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 11:35:10 -
[527] - Quote
Is that you sky?
I am just here to snuggle and do spy stuff.
|
Crest Zah Donartal
Bluenose Corporation
674
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 12:19:33 -
[528] - Quote
My own....hell Nooooo!
It's our all space.
I just have a love-Hate relationship with it.
and...NO |
John E Normus
The Conference Elite CODE.
615
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 22:37:28 -
[529] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:John E Normus wrote:Leto Thule wrote:Killboards aren't a record of ALL types of pvp. They don't show ransoms, they don't show ships built, ore mined, items stolen, corps infiltrated, or many other types of PVP. It doesn't show sites explored, scams completed, recruits hired, or blueprints researched.it doesn't show ships saved from logistics. No LP gained.
You see the trend?
The human problem, as you are correct in pointing out, have come to value a pilot based on killboard stats. Therefore, more players focus on KB stats over making isk or content. The value is only as much as the player base makes it.
Bingo, love you long time! So you don't think going deeper into the kills looking at the fleet composition and working back the likely situation and fleet setup is worthwhile, actually yeah, because you don't have any value in doing that as you are a ganker, you are shooting things that don't fight back, case closed.
Killboards have a lot of useful data but don't provide a complete picture of a pilot. There are a lot of intangibles that a pilot might bring to our movement that make his killboard meaningless. 1337 peeveepee doesn't just happen in space big buddy.
Also, case closed?
Between Ignorance and Wisdom
|
Mag's
the united
19934
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 00:04:36 -
[530] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Having you call me a hypocrite is a compliment, you last undocked 30th May, impressive... OK I read this, I kinda got this face in real life so I have to ask. What relevance has someone's RL time constraints, have to do with anything?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1000
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 09:42:19 -
[531] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Having you call me a hypocrite is a compliment, you last undocked 30th May, impressive... OK I read this, I kinda got this face in real life so I have to ask. What relevance has someone's RL time constraints, have to do with anything?
I am talking about in game stuff, he is talking about RL constraints ask Kaarous not me, facepalm...
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Mag's
the united
19938
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 11:40:25 -
[532] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Mag's wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Having you call me a hypocrite is a compliment, you last undocked 30th May, impressive... OK I read this, I kinda got this face in real life so I have to ask. What relevance has someone's RL time constraints, have to do with anything? I am talking about in game stuff, he is talking about RL constraints ask Kaarous not me, facepalm... Actually you were talking about out of game stuff and using it to make judgements.
But If you don't wish to answer, that's fine.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1000
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 13:09:08 -
[533] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Mag's wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Having you call me a hypocrite is a compliment, you last undocked 30th May, impressive... OK I read this, I kinda got this face in real life so I have to ask. What relevance has someone's RL time constraints, have to do with anything? I am talking about in game stuff, he is talking about RL constraints ask Kaarous not me, facepalm... Actually you were talking about out of game stuff and using it to make judgements. But If you don't wish to answer, that's fine.
Again you are confused, I am talking about a killboard that was created by in game activity, nothing about RL stuff.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Mag's
the united
19944
|
Posted - 2015.08.02 15:12:18 -
[534] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Mag's wrote:Actually you were talking about out of game stuff and using it to make judgements. But If you don't wish to answer, that's fine. Again you are confused, I am talking about a killboard that was created by in game activity, nothing about RL stuff. I'm confused you say?
Using game data Gëá in game. Killboards are a meta tool, based out of game on private servers. Just because they use data from the game, doesn't mean they are in that game. You didn't know this? Then after being ask why you mention it, fail to explain the relevance of someone's RL time constraints.
Indeed I am confused, you're literally making no sense at this point.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Kaely Tanniss
Black Hydra Consortium.
449
|
Posted - 2015.08.05 03:00:35 -
[535] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Leto Thule wrote: The human problem, as you are correct in pointing out, have come to value a pilot based on killboard stats.
He doesn't actually do that, though. It's merely the latest example of his hypocrisy. It's his attempt to devalue people who do a lot of activity on alts, such as most gankers. Meanwhile, if he actually valued killboards even a fifth as much as he claims he does, he would bow down and worship TCE. But he's just a hypocrite trying to troll his betters. Having you call me a hypocrite is a compliment, you last undocked 30th May, impressive...
Hehehe..Dracvlad..when was the last time you were at war and managed to move yourself and your alt off of a station.
I recall you station humping in Kaaput the entire time we were at war. So please....keep your 'leet criticism to yourself.
If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2015.08.05 10:56:02 -
[536] - Quote
Silent Renegade wrote: The simple fact is CODE and similar HighSec Space Gankers are just low-life bullies; no better and no different to the low-life that creates a false account on Face Book to bully someone online from their school or work place.
Really?
Have you ever thought that it could be the way high-sec is set up?
The problem I see is that you have NPC corps that can't be wardec'd and you have no way to engage those players in PvP without resorting to less favourable tactics.
So does CCP want high-sec to be PvE only, if that is the case then they should do it. Otherwise they should improve the PvP mechanics in high-sec.
If CODE and those like CODE didn't do what they do then NPC corps would be completely free of any type of combat PvP.
Maybe a better way would be that all players start in an NPC corp that can't be wardec'd and after a month or two get transferred to an NPC corp that can be wardec'd. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
2921
|
Posted - 2015.08.05 13:51:48 -
[537] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Silent Renegade wrote: The simple fact is CODE and similar HighSec Space Gankers are just low-life bullies; no better and no different to the low-life that creates a false account on Face Book to bully someone online from their school or work place.
Really? Have you ever thought that it could be the way high-sec is set up?
Nah, it can't be that because I don't like what those horrid gankers do, which is all the proof you need that they're bullies, etc.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
|
Kooshti
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.05 14:19:59 -
[538] - Quote
sometimes i wish lizard squad would do something relevant like ddos concord |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2015.08.05 15:00:26 -
[539] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Avvy wrote:Silent Renegade wrote: The simple fact is CODE and similar HighSec Space Gankers are just low-life bullies; no better and no different to the low-life that creates a false account on Face Book to bully someone online from their school or work place.
Really? Have you ever thought that it could be the way high-sec is set up? Nah, it can't be that because I don't like what those horrid gankers do, which is all the proof you need that they're bullies, etc.
Really? Wasn't a real question, it was me being sarcastic.
The second question you quoted was for real. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1012
|
Posted - 2015.08.05 20:46:06 -
[540] - Quote
Kaely Tanniss wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Leto Thule wrote: The human problem, as you are correct in pointing out, have come to value a pilot based on killboard stats.
He doesn't actually do that, though. It's merely the latest example of his hypocrisy. It's his attempt to devalue people who do a lot of activity on alts, such as most gankers. Meanwhile, if he actually valued killboards even a fifth as much as he claims he does, he would bow down and worship TCE. But he's just a hypocrite trying to troll his betters. Having you call me a hypocrite is a compliment, you last undocked 30th May, impressive... Hehehe..Dracvlad..when was the last time you were at war and managed to move yourself and your alt off of a station. I recall you station humping in Kaaput the entire time we were at war. So please....keep your 'leet criticism to yourself.
Well that was funny, one of your guys went for it and ended up dis-engaging and docking in 10% armour, I made a mistake with my drones, forgot they were not grouped, so only one in space doh... After that one person just sat 250 km plus away from the station in a Proteus. So if I was so bad why didn't he come closer? That being said CODE war decc'd me after Marmite did, if that had not been the case I would have been a lot more aggressive. I said GF to the CODE person who gave me that fight and I respected him, that's good enough for me.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
|
Kaely Tanniss
Black Hydra Consortium.
452
|
Posted - 2015.08.05 20:55:24 -
[541] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Kaely Tanniss wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Leto Thule wrote: The human problem, as you are correct in pointing out, have come to value a pilot based on killboard stats.
He doesn't actually do that, though. It's merely the latest example of his hypocrisy. It's his attempt to devalue people who do a lot of activity on alts, such as most gankers. Meanwhile, if he actually valued killboards even a fifth as much as he claims he does, he would bow down and worship TCE. But he's just a hypocrite trying to troll his betters. Having you call me a hypocrite is a compliment, you last undocked 30th May, impressive... Hehehe..Dracvlad..when was the last time you were at war and managed to move yourself and your alt off of a station. I recall you station humping in Kaaput the entire time we were at war. So please....keep your 'leet criticism to yourself. Well that was funny, one of your guys went for it and ended up dis-engaging and docking in 10% armour, I made a mistake with my drones, forgot they were not grouped, so only one in space doh... After that one person just sat 250 km plus away from the station in a Proteus. So if I was so bad why didn't he come closer? That being said CODE war decc'd me after Marmite did, if that had not been the case I would have been a lot more aggressive. I said GF to the CODE person who gave me that fight and I respected him, that's good enough for me.
Uh-oh...did I strike a nerve? Yes..that was me off the station. I don't play station games. I know all to well how that works.
You could've just as easily come off station for a real gf rather than switching ships when you know you're gonna lose. Try to make it a little less obivous next time.
+1 for the gf. Most won't do that simply because we're Code. We also had quite a few wars at the time too..including some merc corps...so I do understand that aspect in some ways.
I have no interest in deccing you...but if for some reason the alliance does in the future, perhaps we can try again..off station.
Fly dangerously
If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1012
|
Posted - 2015.08.06 06:07:18 -
[542] - Quote
Kaely Tanniss wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Kaely Tanniss wrote:Hehehe..Dracvlad..when was the last time you were at war and managed to move yourself and your alt off of a station. I recall you station humping in Kaaput the entire time we were at war. So please....keep your 'leet criticism to yourself. Well that was funny, one of your guys went for it and ended up dis-engaging and docking in 10% armour, I made a mistake with my drones, forgot they were not grouped, so only one in space doh... After that one person just sat 250 km plus away from the station in a Proteus. So if I was so bad why didn't he come closer? That being said CODE war decc'd me after Marmite did, if that had not been the case I would have been a lot more aggressive. I said GF to the CODE person who gave me that fight and I respected him, that's good enough for me. Uh-oh...did I strike a nerve? Yes..that was me off the station. I don't play station games. I know all to well how that works. You could've just as easily come off station for a real gf rather than switching ships when you know you're gonna lose. Try to make it a little less obivous next time. +1 for the gf. Most won't do that simply because we're Code. We also had quite a few wars at the time too..including some merc corps...so I do understand that aspect in some ways. I have no interest in deccing you...but if for some reason the alliance does in the future, perhaps we can try again..off station. Fly dangerously
I thought it was you, I did have an alt cloaked up in position behind you, but RL got in the way, wife kept asking me to do stuff, such is life. Well CODE does have rather a lot of pilots in that system, I have to add the DPS of gank Catalysts into the equation, also the one time I had peace from the wife and I was going to go for your Proteus a Marmite fleet came into Niarja.
You did not strike a nerve, I prefer to be honest about it, station games are a bit meh, but its often a game to play when you are likely to be out-numbered. The guy with the two fleet stabbers was cool, he sussed out he was going to lose and de-aggressed in good time, I gave him my respect for his assessment and action. o7 to you, I am now back in 0.0, so hisec wars are unlikely now.
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6747
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 11:00:05 -
[543] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
...I am now back in 0.0, so hisec wars are unlikely now.
Well of course you would leave just as I join. Can't say it would have been much of a fight though - some scrub whoring on CONCORD kills? I get better fights out of TEST tbh.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6747
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 11:03:00 -
[544] - Quote
As for this thread: 2 major problems.
1. Telling us you're offering your 2 cents worth, then expatiating a $200 essay without a tl;dr is very disparaging, but I know a flash-flood of tears when I see one, because:
2. "Here's my opinion" and "the fact is" do not belong in an assertion together. One cancels the other out. If you have evidence of bullying going on, then I suggest you report the offender to CCP. Bullying is against the Terms of Service. Otherwise, if "you're a bully" is the best pejorative you can come up with.... well, actions speak louder than words, and guns speak very loudly. Get them out and do something. Otherwise, your whining = OP success. CODE always wins.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Austneal
5th Fleet Bilgewaters
50
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 13:19:27 -
[545] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:No. There have already been many nerfs to hisec over past years, as anyone who knows what the hell they are actually talking about already knows. So if there isn't a direct correlation today of increased subs retention as a result after all that then guess what, nerfing hisec killed subs. tldr; Boredom at saving the damsel for the 100th time without another player invading your mission (or wardec) actually kills subs? Who knew...we content creators did, but no one listened... WoW is that way --> Go there, or better yet go skill yourself. F I bestow all of my yes on this post. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1014
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 15:02:21 -
[546] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
...I am now back in 0.0, so hisec wars are unlikely now.
Well of course you would leave just as I join. Can't say it would have been much of a fight though - some scrub whoring on CONCORD kills? I get better fights out of TEST tbh.
Feel free to join me in Stain, don't need a war dec! As for the CONCORD whoring comment, ganking is PvP in my opinion, you should note that a large percentage of my CONCORD kills have me doing the majority of the damage, and you do know that the gankers can shoot people near them back before they blow up, so raspberry blown in your direction for being a hypocrite!
Ella's Snack bar. With all the data supplied on API/CREST the game should be renamed to Jabber Online, look something to kill, ping everyone!!!!
|
Amanda Rekenwhith
Bureau of CODE Enforcement CODE.
19
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 19:24:51 -
[547] - Quote
Here's my 1/50th of a dollar.
People play Eve because it emulates many aspects of RL. Just like RL, the cops don't show up in time to prevent crime, but there are laws in place to keep most people in line. Those who choose to violate the law get punished but are ultimately free to do as they please and once the punishment had been served they can violate the law again if they choose.
For dessert we're offering humble pie. -áWould you like some after you're done eating crow?
|
Freya Sertan
Et Liberate Vos De Deus
690
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 19:30:06 -
[548] - Quote
Amanda Rekenwhith wrote:Here's my 1/50th of a dollar.
People play Eve because it emulates many aspects of RL. Just like RL, the cops don't show up in time to prevent crime, but there are laws in place to keep most people in line. Those who choose to violate the law get punished but are ultimately free to do as they please and once the punishment had been served they can violate the law again if they choose.
Yeah, I play a video game to retreat from real life that emulates real life.
Yeah.
New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.
Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
|
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8231
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 19:32:05 -
[549] - Quote
I have been away for more than three years, but it is comforting to know that some things never change.
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
|
XeX Znndstrup
67
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 20:37:53 -
[550] - Quote
Gankers steal ISK. They speak about "content". They absolutly have this right in this world.
Never forget that you have the same rights and the same tools than them.
You see the light now. What was a problem is now a solution. Kill them. Simply.
The Law Organization promulgates Republic of Stellar Order
"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light". John Milton, Lost Paradise.
|
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1563
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:24:15 -
[551] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Gankers steal ISK. They speak about "content". They absolutly have this right in this world.
Never forget that you have the same rights and the same tools than them.
You see the light now. What was a problem is now a solution. Kill them. Simply.
Good Bob in wormhole space is that a semi coherent posting. Somebody confirm for me please I'm kinda tired
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
[s]ISD Dorrim Barstorlode favourite ISD[/s]
|
Bellatrix Invicta
The Conference Elite CODE.
166
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:24:44 -
[552] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Gankers steal ISK. They speak about "content". They absolutly have this right in this world.
Never forget that you have the same rights and the same tools than them.
You see the light now. What was a problem is now a solution. Kill them. Simply.
If it were simple greater people than you would have done so by now.
You see the light now?
If you think you've won, think again.
The CODE always wins.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6903
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:39:38 -
[553] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
...I am now back in 0.0, so hisec wars are unlikely now.
Well of course you would leave just as I join. Can't say it would have been much of a fight though - some scrub whoring on CONCORD kills? I get better fights out of TEST tbh. Feel free to join me in Stain, don't need a war dec! As for the CONCORD whoring comment, ganking is PvP in my opinion which you correctly point out on another thread, you should note that a large percentage of my CONCORD kills have me doing the majority of the damage, and you do know that the gankers can shoot people near them back before they blow up, so raspberry blown in your direction for being a hypocrite!
Forget it Drac. We've dealt with these kinds of people on two continents. Nothing you say will change a thing as everything that comes their way is twisted to feed their own self importance. They want you to feel something "more" for every loss, and pretend their own losses are nothing at the same time. It's part of the meta-jollies, their game.
All we need to know is some of their twitch feeds have delays for when things don't go right, and how quickly they shut down their snark when their freighter wreck gets shot. A day will come when goon and CODE. alts will be on the forums crying to make wreck HP commensurate with what the wreck was before it became a wreck. On that day we will know they are feeling the pressure from a new form of ganking that is emerging from the anti-ganking efforts.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Paula Enkhashour
World Traders Guild
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 22:37:20 -
[554] - Quote
It is lovely how so little changes overtime.
I dont understand what people think when bringing an argument to the table tho:
- EVE is a multiplayer said MMORPG sandbox style, while very little of it is geared towards RPG, even from Devs. The lore in EVE is very dismissive, restricted and restrictive as far as backstory goes, but it is still a MMORPG as far as its docs go. So it is much of a shot in the foot to say that exploding a ship is the same as killing someone in an FPS non persistent game. When you have a mmorpg, and specially EVE, things you have do not come back after you restart, do not cost play money you receive after you restart, and EVE is not about exploding ships. If you do have other things to do, the game cant be about only one thing and all the rest are there just to indulge you. Not even the devs have the balls to say that eve is about exploding ships only. There are a considerable work over industry and trading in Eve, and that is not just "because they can". While I dont use this as reason to make it so people can mine afk alone, I just dont see how you can say things like "eve is all about killing and destroying" and still want to be considered a reasonable and "non-dumbass" person.
- You can say whatever you want, people dont change when they are drunk, when they are alone and when they are hidden behind the anonimity of internet, not even when they are playing EVE or any other mmo. You might want to believe that you are not a psycho in real life when you are a psycho in EVE online, but you most definitely are. Im not saying everyone who does pvp or ill driven kills are disturbed, but the kind of joy in active search you have driven by motivations ranging from just random destruction of someone else's property for amusement to the joy of thinking you caused someone to suffer, they signs you are a disturbed individual, regardless of the conditions or means you use to fulfill that apetites. When you say that the joy of making people suffer for no other reason than pure amusement, or knowingly destroy things and people with the intent to make them miserable in the game has no relation with your mentality outside the game is the same as say that a pedofile in the internet is not a problem because he may be a sexually normal person in his real life. See the problem ?
- This question is as old as EVE online, and I had seen a documentary on Icelandic modern history from the time around EVE was developed and launched, so I have an idea what have inspired a lot in EVE online mechanics, and by now most people should have thought that this game is not for kids, not for casual gamers, and not for the majority of the people who start playing it. I dont really understand why ccp does not make this game to be popular, as it has the graphics, the mechanics, and the theme, all combined in a one of a kind experience, if it wasnt for the excessive power relinquished to players. On the other hand, the fact that I dont understand why ccp restricts the game for a smaller playerbase it could have, I dont really care. What i find amusing is that people discuss eve as if the game was for them, individually. More amusing is the fact that CCP allows it and enables those players by setting up ideal conditions for that.
- You must be really careful about using EVE online accounts as a correlation to eve online human players, and thus, numbers on what most players do taking into consideration what accounts do. I have currently 3 active accounts and I have had 11 concurrent active accounts at the peak of my "account having". Most of people multibox huge numbers for combat reasons, either to win or lose in mass, and therefore, from the numbers you can take that people in eve online stay when they lose ships and die, or most people engage in pvp frequently, but what data shows is that many ACCOUNTS do that, not many people. The "statistical stick man argument" is not an EVE thing, and has been around from ages, and always used to justify the lest honorable behaviors as being the "norm". As if when many people do one thing, that means you are ok to do it too.
But it is all fun and games, and EVE online for me is just a "single player game with a lot of people I can see playing". I never really got hold of why people go around losing things, being scamed, insulted, bullied, harassed, and still go talk to strangers in Jita or places of the likes, trusting someone will actually do something potentially damaging without the intent of causing damage. Pretty much how I live my real life, as I dont try to decept people saying I am not what I am ingame out of the game. I have my fun in real life the same way, seeing a lot of people preying on other people just to satisfy their sick needs. |
Paranoid Loyd
6562
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 22:48:20 -
[555] - Quote
^ Can't separate the game from real life, nothing to see here.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
|
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6757
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 23:42:25 -
[556] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
...I am now back in 0.0, so hisec wars are unlikely now.
Well of course you would leave just as I join. Can't say it would have been much of a fight though - some scrub whoring on CONCORD kills? I get better fights out of TEST tbh. Feel free to join me in Stain, don't need a war dec! As for the CONCORD whoring comment, ganking is PvP in my opinion which you correctly point out on another thread, you should note that a large percentage of my CONCORD kills have me doing the majority of the damage, and you do know that the gankers can shoot people near them back before they blow up, so raspberry blown in your direction for being a hypocrite!
I'm not a ganker, but I never suggested one form of PVP was more legit than another, just that a fight with you wouldn't be much of a fight. On that note, I can think of a few gankers who'd give me very good fights.
"Come to x if you want to fight" - well, my whole point was, you WERE in high, then left when I showed up. It was really cute. Anyway, don't conflate this with any desire to fight or have some kind of pissing match. I have plenty of targets where I am, it really is no loss for me.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1568
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 00:09:15 -
[557] - Quote
I can confirm I murder people for money IRL too...
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
[s]ISD Dorrim Barstorlode favourite ISD[/s]
|
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6757
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 00:21:35 -
[558] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:- You can say whatever you want, people dont change when they are drunk, when they are alone and when they are hidden behind the anonimity of internet, not even when they are playing EVE or any other mmo. You might want to believe that you are not a psycho in real life when you are a psycho in EVE online, but you most definitely are. Im not saying everyone who does pvp or ill driven kills are disturbed, but the kind of joy in active search you have driven by motivations ranging from just random destruction of someone else's property for amusement to the joy of thinking you caused someone to suffer, they signs you are a disturbed individual, regardless of the conditions or means you use to fulfill that apetites. When you say that the joy of making people suffer for no other reason than pure amusement, or knowingly destroy things and people with the intent to make them miserable in the game has no relation with your mentality outside the game is the same as say that a pedofile in the internet is not a problem because he may be a sexually normal person in his real life. See the problem ?
Wut?
I'm sorry, but have you got the required qualifications and spent the required evaluation time with players to form this diagnosis? No? I thought not. Let me tell you something about EVE - it is a game. It is a game, despite your opinion, about blowing up spaceships, and everything else is there to accommodate the exploding of spaceships. It's amazing the sheer volume of different types of weaponry and combat ship compared to the volume of different types of hauler or barge, and the gear that helps them get their job done, is it not?
When you log into EVE, you're wasting time. There is nothing wrong with wasting time, especially when you have time to waste, but it is a waste of time to play a video game. Any time you invest into this game is, in fact, wasted from the outset. Which is why, when you're playing a game, you should try to enjoy it instead of treat it like a second job. Especially an MMO, because the servers won't be around forever, and one day, everything you've invested time into will be gone. It will no longer exist. Which is another reason why you are wasting time.
I make this point because literally the only real-life consequence for destroying someone's ship in this game is wasting their time, which they've already wasted to begin with. More to the point, however, the moment you undock, you've consented to PVP engagement. That is the very nature of EVE, and the sooner you grasp this, the sooner you'll stop concocting excuses for being crap and blaming your badness on everyone else's mental state, which you are not qualified to speak on. This tells me the only reason you are calling people 'psycho' is for some measure of prescriptive retaliation, which is essentially nothing more than a petty personal attack. It means nothing, and is against the forum rules. More importantly, as you may notice from comments above, no one is phased by your opinion of their mental state.
You want to have a real effect on your experience in EVE? Get your guns out and shoot the guys that shoot you. That is all.
For the record, psychopathy and sociopathy, two different things, are not diagnoses or disorders on their own, but comorbid conditions of other diagnoses or disorders. As a matter of fact, there isn't a human alive that doesn't display traits of psychopathy or sociopathy. We're all a little bit nuts to some degree, including you.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Kaely Tanniss
Black Hydra Consortium.
458
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 01:10:24 -
[559] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:It is lovely how so little changes overtime.
I dont understand what people think when bringing an argument to the table tho:
- EVE is a multiplayer said MMORPG sandbox style, while very little of it is geared towards RPG, even from Devs. The lore in EVE is very dismissive, restricted and restrictive as far as backstory goes, but it is still a MMORPG as far as its docs go. So it is much of a shot in the foot to say that exploding a ship is the same as killing someone in an FPS non persistent game. When you have a mmorpg, and specially EVE, things you have do not come back after you restart, do not cost play money you receive after you restart, and EVE is not about exploding ships. If you do have other things to do, the game cant be about only one thing and all the rest are there just to indulge you. Not even the devs have the balls to say that eve is about exploding ships only. There are a considerable work over industry and trading in Eve, and that is not just "because they can". While I dont use this as reason to make it so people can mine afk alone, I just dont see how you can say things like "eve is all about killing and destroying" and still want to be considered a reasonable and "non-dumbass" person.
- You can say whatever you want, people dont change when they are drunk, when they are alone and when they are hidden behind the anonimity of internet, not even when they are playing EVE or any other mmo. You might want to believe that you are not a psycho in real life when you are a psycho in EVE online, but you most definitely are. Im not saying everyone who does pvp or ill driven kills are disturbed, but the kind of joy in active search you have driven by motivations ranging from just random destruction of someone else's property for amusement to the joy of thinking you caused someone to suffer, they signs you are a disturbed individual, regardless of the conditions or means you use to fulfill that apetites. When you say that the joy of making people suffer for no other reason than pure amusement, or knowingly destroy things and people with the intent to make them miserable in the game has no relation with your mentality outside the game is the same as say that a pedofile in the internet is not a problem because he may be a sexually normal person in his real life. See the problem ?
- This question is as old as EVE online, and I had seen a documentary on Icelandic modern history from the time around EVE was developed and launched, so I have an idea what have inspired a lot in EVE online mechanics, and by now most people should have thought that this game is not for kids, not for casual gamers, and not for the majority of the people who start playing it. I dont really understand why ccp does not make this game to be popular, as it has the graphics, the mechanics, and the theme, all combined in a one of a kind experience, if it wasnt for the excessive power relinquished to players. On the other hand, the fact that I dont understand why ccp restricts the game for a smaller playerbase it could have, I dont really care. What i find amusing is that people discuss eve as if the game was for them, individually. More amusing is the fact that CCP allows it and enables those players by setting up ideal conditions for that.
- You must be really careful about using EVE online accounts as a correlation to eve online human players, and thus, numbers on what most players do taking into consideration what accounts do. I have currently 3 active accounts and I have had 11 concurrent active accounts at the peak of my "account having". Most of people multibox huge numbers for combat reasons, either to win or lose in mass, and therefore, from the numbers you can take that people in eve online stay when they lose ships and die, or most people engage in pvp frequently, but what data shows is that many ACCOUNTS do that, not many people. The "statistical stick man argument" is not an EVE thing, and has been around from ages, and always used to justify the lest honorable behaviors as being the "norm". As if when many people do one thing, that means you are ok to do it too.
But it is all fun and games, and EVE online for me is just a "single player game with a lot of people I can see playing". I never really got hold of why people go around losing things, being scamed, insulted, bullied, harassed, and still go talk to strangers in Jita or places of the likes, trusting someone will actually do something potentially damaging without the intent of causing damage. Pretty much how I live my real life, as I dont try to decept people saying I am not what I am ingame out of the game. I have my fun in real life the same way, seeing a lot of people preying on other people just to satisfy their sick needs.
Wow..Freud here has it all figured out. It's a game...learn to seperate fantasy from reality. By your logic, everyone who plays a violent game and shoots you in the face is a psycho? THIS is what's wrong..not the fact people like to shoot spaceships. The issue lies with those who can't seem to understand that what happens in a fantasy, computer generated world is NOT reality and does not emulate reality. The sooner people get this, the better off gaming will be.
If your life revolves around a game..you need to examine your priorities. If a game or actions in a game cause you rl grief and stress, you need to examine yourself and your priorities. If you cannot seem to separate reality from a fictional game...you need to stop playing games and get help.
This is not directed at you personally, rather to anyone whom the shoe fits.
Reality = what happens when you turn Eve off Fantasy= anything that happens while you have Eve on
Know the difference...
If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
|
Mortlake
Devils Rejects 666
535
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 07:26:19 -
[560] - Quote
Im fairness this game has kept me out of prison, so there's that. |
|
XeX Znndstrup
68
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 07:49:17 -
[561] - Quote
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Gankers steal ISK. They speak about "content". They absolutly have this right in this world.
Never forget that you have the same rights and the same tools than them.
You see the light now. What was a problem is now a solution. Kill them. Simply.
If it were simple greater people than you would have done so by now. You see the light now?
Weaker people than us do this also.
Destroying a mining frigate alone in space is a great act of valor... These ships are the best war ships, as you know all...
If cowards may attack a single vessel, we let you know now that strong armies can also do the same with you, prosecuted assassin. Your time is coming.
The Law Organization promulgates Republic of Stellar Order
"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light". John Milton, Lost Paradise.
|
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2401
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 07:51:11 -
[562] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote: Foxes are bad because they eat bunnies. Bunnies are good. If you play a game that lets you be a fox then you are a bad person who hates bunnies. Save the bunnies.
Shame on you Kaely for quoting that wall of dreck in full.
Not only a space lawyer, but also an armchair psychologist as well. Shouldn't you be off working on your Nobel Prize?
My fedo satisfied all of my sick needs, until I had it gold plated during a drunken bender. Lighten up and learn to not take things too seriously. Yeah, you can lose stuff... you WILL lose stuff. It's part of the mechanism that keeps the game going.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
61
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 13:07:54 -
[563] - Quote
Ever play a solo game where you go around killing characters? If so then you can't say anyone that shoots other characters in an MMO is a bad person. Doesn't matter if the characters are players or npcs they're still just characters. |
Lady Areola Fappington
2665
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 13:45:19 -
[564] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:It is lovely how so little changes overtime.
I dont understand what people think when bringing an argument to the table tho:
- EVE is a multiplayer said MMORPG sandbox style, while very little of it is geared towards RPG, even from Devs. The lore in EVE is very dismissive, restricted and restrictive as far as backstory goes, but it is still a MMORPG as far as its docs go. So it is much of a shot in the foot to say that exploding a ship is the same as killing someone in an FPS non persistent game. When you have a mmorpg, and specially EVE, things you have do not come back after you restart, do not cost play money you receive after you restart, and EVE is not about exploding ships. If you do have other things to do, the game cant be about only one thing and all the rest are there just to indulge you. Not even the devs have the balls to say that eve is about exploding ships only. There are a considerable work over industry and trading in Eve, and that is not just "because they can". While I dont use this as reason to make it so people can mine afk alone, I just dont see how you can say things like "eve is all about killing and destroying" and still want to be considered a reasonable and "non-dumbass" person.
- You can say whatever you want, people dont change when they are drunk, when they are alone and when they are hidden behind the anonimity of internet, not even when they are playing EVE or any other mmo. You might want to believe that you are not a psycho in real life when you are a psycho in EVE online, but you most definitely are. Im not saying everyone who does pvp or ill driven kills are disturbed, but the kind of joy in active search you have driven by motivations ranging from just random destruction of someone else's property for amusement to the joy of thinking you caused someone to suffer, they signs you are a disturbed individual, regardless of the conditions or means you use to fulfill that apetites. When you say that the joy of making people suffer for no other reason than pure amusement, or knowingly destroy things and people with the intent to make them miserable in the game has no relation with your mentality outside the game is the same as say that a pedofile in the internet is not a problem because he may be a sexually normal person in his real life. See the problem ?
- This question is as old as EVE online, and I had seen a documentary on Icelandic modern history from the time around EVE was developed and launched, so I have an idea what have inspired a lot in EVE online mechanics, and by now most people should have thought that this game is not for kids, not for casual gamers, and not for the majority of the people who start playing it. I dont really understand why ccp does not make this game to be popular, as it has the graphics, the mechanics, and the theme, all combined in a one of a kind experience, if it wasnt for the excessive power relinquished to players. On the other hand, the fact that I dont understand why ccp restricts the game for a smaller playerbase it could have, I dont really care. What i find amusing is that people discuss eve as if the game was for them, individually. More amusing is the fact that CCP allows it and enables those players by setting up ideal conditions for that.
- You must be really careful about using EVE online accounts as a correlation to eve online human players, and thus, numbers on what most players do taking into consideration what accounts do. I have currently 3 active accounts and I have had 11 concurrent active accounts at the peak of my "account having". Most of people multibox huge numbers for combat reasons, either to win or lose in mass, and therefore, from the numbers you can take that people in eve online stay when they lose ships and die, or most people engage in pvp frequently, but what data shows is that many ACCOUNTS do that, not many people. The "statistical stick man argument" is not an EVE thing, and has been around from ages, and always used to justify the lest honorable behaviors as being the "norm". As if when many people do one thing, that means you are ok to do it too.
But it is all fun and games, and EVE online for me is just a "single player game with a lot of people I can see playing". I never really got hold of why people go around losing things, being scamed, insulted, bullied, harassed, and still go talk to strangers in Jita or places of the likes, trusting someone will actually do something potentially damaging without the intent of causing damage. Pretty much how I live my real life, as I dont try to decept people saying I am not what I am ingame out of the game. I have my fun in real life the same way, seeing a lot of people preying on other people just to satisfy their sick needs.
And now comes someone (me) who actually has experience diagnosing and handling psychological issues.
Simply put, you cannot use behaviour in a video game to diagnose psych issues in another person. A video game exerts artificial behavioural pressures. Those artificial behavioural pressures can cause reactions that otherwise would not occur in a healthy person operating in the real world.
This is one reason why things like psych experiments exist. Example: the Stanford Prison Experiment. The people involved with the Stanford Prison Experiment, while displaying definite psychological disorders, would never actually *BE* diagnosed with them. Why? The experiment was an artificial construct exerting artificial behavioural pressures on the participants.
Same with Eve. Artificial world. The only useful data you can extract from Eve is how people would react to these behavioural pressures. You can't actually extract much in relation to the actual psychological demeanor of the people involved.
Paula's post is what happens when someone takes a Psych 101 class and thinks they know everything there is to know about psychology.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1458
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 14:19:52 -
[565] - Quote
When I'm not dunking miners in EVE i dunk miners in RL. I think that's totally legit, but somehow they never answer the mails I send afterwards.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
admiral root
Red Galaxy
2951
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 14:26:52 -
[566] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:And now comes someone (me) who actually has experience diagnosing and handling psychological issues.
OMG, h4x!
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
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Paula Enkhashour
World Traders Guild
1
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 14:43:37 -
[567] - Quote
Your personality is not your actions. I never said you WILL kill people in real life because you kill people in EVE.
As the example of the many criminals in Internet, you are a person who would do that if not by laws or religion, whatever.
The game just let you do what you want to do without consequences, and if you had that lack of accountability in real life too, you would do the same.
All and all, you can see that by the replies on the forum post. Usually the ingame bullies and trolls cannot just let things go or just pass by, they have to try to extract some satisfaction from the suffering of others. They have to make their presence felt as a "cool" or "powerful" entity over someone else.
If you are not something, you just arent, you dont go around denying it. |
Mortlake
Devils Rejects 666
537
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 14:53:20 -
[568] - Quote
But isn't that the whole point? People who 'suffer' because of something that happens to them in a game, and might I add usually because they allow themselves to be a target due to their own actions, have only themselves to blame? Firstly for their virtual loss, and secondly in so far as they have allowed themselves to be put in that position, knowing that the aforementioned loss will cause them 'suffering'?
I blame the victim.
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1293
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 15:10:27 -
[569] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:Your personality is not your actions. I never said you WILL kill people in real life because you kill people in EVE.
As the example of the many criminals in Internet, you are a person who would do that if not by laws or religion, whatever.
The game just let you do what you want to do without consequences, and if you had that lack of accountability in real life too, you would do the same.
All and all, you can see that by the replies on the forum post. Usually the ingame bullies and trolls cannot just let things go or just pass by, they have to try to extract some satisfaction from the suffering of others. They have to make their presence felt as a "cool" or "powerful" entity over someone else.
If you are not something, you just arent, you dont go around denying it. Of course there are "no consequences" as New Eden is a virtual world where no-one can get hurt. Everything is just imaginary pixels and numbers in a database somewhere. You can turn off your computer at anytime and you will be in exactly the same physical condition regardless if you won or lost some virtual items in-game.
Comparing a virtual game world where everyone voluntarily chooses to join to spend thier free time to anything in the real world where participation is not optional and people can get hurt is just wrong.
Just like I can take your queen in chess or bankrupt you in Monopoly without feeling bad, I have no problem in exploding your space pixels. We are all adults playing in a virtual world that we can leave at anytime. Choosing to be a villain there has no bearing on your real-world morals or actions and really, much of the bad behaviour seen in-game comes from people who cannot separate this fantasy world from the real one. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 15:35:13 -
[570] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:
The game just let you do what you want to do without consequences, and if you had that lack of accountability in real life too, you would do the same.
That's where you are wrong.
In a game it doesn't matter if there are consequences or not, because it's a game.
In RL for a lot of people laws don't really matter that much for the simple reason a lot of people wouldn't resort to that type of a behaviour anyway. But there would be those that would take advantage if they was no accountability. We're not all the same for me I have to have a reason for doing something beyond because I can. If that reason was strong enough it wouldn't matter about accountability.
Your kind of reasoning is amusing though, but you're not the only one that thinks that way, seen others use that line of reasoning before.
|
|
Paula Enkhashour
World Traders Guild
2
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 19:31:42 -
[571] - Quote
Yeah, because YOU so righteous "it is a game people" do not understand what it means.
I am not saying people who kills people ingame would kill people in real life.
I am saying that people who enjoy make others miserable as means to feel superior do the same in real life.
Ingame that means gank, bait, destroy and scam.
In real life that means those jokes that only bring joy to some people at the expense of grief to others, not restricted to violent or damaging ones, but a lot of ways in which we know most people who does crappy things ingame use to do in real life.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTION OF COMBAT OR PVP
There are lots of people in eve who do pvp without aiming to just make people angry. There are people who pvp in a competitive and objective way, and usually are respected by their adversaries as much as by their allies. Taking joy on competition and square odds. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14002
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 19:43:06 -
[572] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote: I am saying that people who enjoy make others miserable as means to feel superior do the same in real life.
So, you are in fact saying that, because YOU are not capable of separating a game from real life, that you think no one else can.
Your argument, like that of every carebear who has ever made it, is nothing but projecting your own mental illness onto other people.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Paula Enkhashour
World Traders Guild
4
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 20:23:38 -
[573] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Paula Enkhashour wrote: I am saying that people who enjoy make others miserable as means to feel superior do the same in real life.
So, you are in fact saying that, because YOU are not capable of separating a game from real life, that you think no one else can. Your argument, like that of every carebear who has ever made it, is nothing but projecting your own mental illness onto other people.
Problem is, you are just doing what I say you kind of people do, as you using derrogatory terms to define me, in ways you cant be accurate, and using the nonsense of reverse argument, which is in itself means to just upset people.
There is nothing plus in your post besides a personal attack and a non-statement disguised in an affirmative phrase.
You dont know what I do in-game or not, as I have multiple accounts to serve multiple goals.
So you basically said, nothing.
|
Paranoid Loyd
6582
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 20:27:07 -
[574] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote: you kind of people
Paula Enkhashour wrote: derrogatory terms
Nice
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
|
Paula Enkhashour
World Traders Guild
6
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 20:40:18 -
[575] - Quote
Unless you think that it is derrogatory to be youself, I dont see why "your kind of people" is derrogatory.
It is like, pretending I am my character, it would be offensive for me to be called Khanid. LOL |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14002
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 20:55:33 -
[576] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote: Problem is, you are just doing what I say you kind of people do, as you using derrogatory terms to define me, in ways you cant be accurate, and using the nonsense of reverse argument, which is in itself means to just upset people.
And you're spouting word garbage, hoping that it will mean something if you talk long enough.
The fact remains that, if you cannot separate real life from this game, you are mentally ill. But just because you are mentally ill does not mean that everyone else is.
So knock off the obvious projection, knock off the accusations against people who are just playing a video game.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6764
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 21:08:12 -
[577] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:Unless you think that it is derrogatory to be youself, I dont see why "your kind of people" is derrogatory.
It is like, pretending I am my character, it would be offensive for me to be called Khanid. LOL
You're trying to categorise and compartmentalise the actions of people you don't like and put it in a nice little package labelled "not normal human behaviour" for the sake of othering the people that play the game in a way you simply don't understand. Then you use terms such as 'sociopath' for those categories without knowing what it means, and the only time people use terms without knowing what they mean as labels is when they're being used as pejoratives, so play the coy passive-aggressive all you want, but what you're doing is nothing new. People who fail at EVE have been trying to do this to their betters since EVE has existed, and you are not making any unique statements or 'observations'.
So go ahead, play the coy passive-aggressive all you want, but you'll excuse us if we consider your assertions as little more than the angsty finger-pointing and inability to take responsibility for your own failures that they are. But you are also being offensive and rude, and you're probably going to get called out on that.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
202
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 21:08:59 -
[578] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:
Your time is coming.
You have two threads here (one from Dec 2014 and one from June 2015) promising rebellion...are you ever actually going to back up your bravado? We might need a poll!
A) Yes, any day now! B) Yes, eventually C) Maybe D) Nah, because *reasons* E) LOL |
XeX Znndstrup
68
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 21:39:30 -
[579] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:
Your time is coming.
You have two threads here (one from Dec 2014 and one from June 2015) promising rebellion...are you ever actually going to back up your bravado? We might need a poll! A) Yes, any day now! B) Yes, eventually C) Maybe D) Nah, because *reasons* E) LOL
Let's respect this topic. We will speak about this in another place.
More than a poll, we will give you a personal answer. Wait for it. You won't forget it.
Last months, we were very near in space from a lot of the criminals spouting on this thread (and on ours also). They couldn't see us. Very easily, we would have been able to push a button and destroy them. But we are not pitbulls. We prefer to wait for the best solution, the appropriate punishment. We analyze you like animals.
The Law Organization promulgates Republic of Stellar Order
"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light". John Milton, Lost Paradise.
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 21:42:40 -
[580] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:Yeah, because YOU so righteous "it is a game people" do not understand what it means.
I am not saying people who kills people ingame would kill people in real life.
I am saying that people who enjoy make others miserable as means to feel superior do the same in real life.
Ingame that means gank, bait, destroy and scam.
In real life that means those jokes that only bring joy to some people at the expense of grief to others, not restricted to violent or damaging ones, but a lot of ways in which we know most people who does crappy things ingame use to do in real life.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTION OF COMBAT OR PVP
There are lots of people in eve who do pvp without aiming to just make people angry. There are people who pvp in a competitive and objective way, and usually are respected by their adversaries as much as by their allies. Taking joy on competition and square odds.
I don't make fun of people in RL, I don't even bully anyone never have done never will do. although I will stand up for myself as well as others.
I certainly wouldn't get any enjoyment in causing anyone else grief, the opposite in fact.
But even I know the difference between a game and RL, pity more people don't.
|
|
Paula Enkhashour
World Traders Guild
6
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 21:45:24 -
[581] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Paula Enkhashour wrote:Unless you think that it is derrogatory to be youself, I dont see why "your kind of people" is derrogatory.
It is like, pretending I am my character, it would be offensive for me to be called Khanid. LOL You're trying to categorise and compartmentalise the actions of people you don't like and put it in a nice little package labelled "not normal human behaviour" for the sake of othering the people that play the game in a way you simply don't understand. Then you use terms such as 'sociopath' for those categories without knowing what it means, and the only time people use terms without knowing what they mean as labels is when they're being used as pejoratives, so play the coy passive-aggressive all you want, but what you're doing is nothing new. People who fail at EVE have been trying to do this to their betters since EVE has existed, and you are not making any unique statements or 'observations'. So go ahead, play the coy passive-aggressive all you want, but you'll excuse us if we consider your assertions as little more than the angsty finger-pointing and inability to take responsibility for your own failures that they are. But you are also being offensive and rude, and you're probably going to get called out on that.
Who said I dont like them ? First. I am the number one fan of honesty to thyself. Being honest to what oneself is start by being honest to what oneself was and what oneself thinks.
Who said it is not normal human behavior ? The majority of the World population use games, alcohol, drugs and stress as excuses to do what they always wanted without the burden of having that perceived as their rational decisions.
All the posts in this forums are based on the logic that what cant be proven wrong is by definition right. Trying to offend me as anything just proves my point. Feeling offended by my words just prove me right. The fact that I am never met with silence when I say that prove me right. A sane action of a person who thinks they are not a sadist psycho is to just dismiss this words as non-sense. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1459
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 21:47:44 -
[582] - Quote
Wait a second! So if you are a carebear in-game who is whining all the time then you are probably doing that in RL as well?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Paula Enkhashour
World Traders Guild
6
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 21:54:34 -
[583] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Wait a second! So if you are a carebear in-game who is whining all the time then you are probably doing that in RL as well?
Exactly my point.
People are so selfish they complain because they take anything as meant just for them.
doesnt matter if it is in a game, in a forum, or in a bar, or in a university room. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 21:54:48 -
[584] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Wait a second! So if you are a carebear in-game who is whining all the time then you are probably doing that in RL as well?
Probably.
Although I think they would rather try and convince us that the characters are actual people. Instead of us all playing a fantasy game. *shakes head |
Mag's
the united
19993
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 22:26:56 -
[585] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Paula Enkhashour wrote:Unless you think that it is derrogatory to be youself, I dont see why "your kind of people" is derrogatory.
It is like, pretending I am my character, it would be offensive for me to be called Khanid. LOL You're trying to categorise and compartmentalise the actions of people you don't like and put it in a nice little package labelled "not normal human behaviour" for the sake of othering the people that play the game in a way you simply don't understand. Then you use terms such as 'sociopath' for those categories without knowing what it means, and the only time people use terms without knowing what they mean as labels is when they're being used as pejoratives, so play the coy passive-aggressive all you want, but what you're doing is nothing new. People who fail at EVE have been trying to do this to their betters since EVE has existed, and you are not making any unique statements or 'observations'. So go ahead, play the coy passive-aggressive all you want, but you'll excuse us if we consider your assertions as little more than the angsty finger-pointing and inability to take responsibility for your own failures that they are. But you are also being offensive and rude, and you're probably going to get called out on that. Who said I dont like them ? First. I am the number one fan of honesty to thyself. Being honest to what oneself is start by being honest to what oneself was and what oneself thinks. Who said it is not normal human behavior ? The majority of the World population use games, alcohol, drugs and stress as excuses to do what they always wanted without the burden of having that perceived as their rational decisions. All the posts in this forums are based on the logic that what cant be proven wrong is by definition right. Trying to offend me as anything just proves my point. Feeling offended by my words just prove me right. The fact that I am never met with silence when I say that prove me right. A sane action of a person who thinks they are not a sadist psycho is to just dismiss this words as non-sense. Nice circular logic you have there.
You label players of this game and when they pull you up on it, claim that because they do, you are right.
Games night at your house, must be a complete blast. Heaven forbid anyone wants to play chess, you never know if they will try and murder you or not.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Paula Enkhashour
World Traders Guild
6
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 22:55:41 -
[586] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Paula Enkhashour wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Paula Enkhashour wrote:Unless you think that it is derrogatory to be youself, I dont see why "your kind of people" is derrogatory.
It is like, pretending I am my character, it would be offensive for me to be called Khanid. LOL You're trying to categorise and compartmentalise the actions of people you don't like and put it in a nice little package labelled "not normal human behaviour" for the sake of othering the people that play the game in a way you simply don't understand. Then you use terms such as 'sociopath' for those categories without knowing what it means, and the only time people use terms without knowing what they mean as labels is when they're being used as pejoratives, so play the coy passive-aggressive all you want, but what you're doing is nothing new. People who fail at EVE have been trying to do this to their betters since EVE has existed, and you are not making any unique statements or 'observations'. So go ahead, play the coy passive-aggressive all you want, but you'll excuse us if we consider your assertions as little more than the angsty finger-pointing and inability to take responsibility for your own failures that they are. But you are also being offensive and rude, and you're probably going to get called out on that. Who said I dont like them ? First. I am the number one fan of honesty to thyself. Being honest to what oneself is start by being honest to what oneself was and what oneself thinks. Who said it is not normal human behavior ? The majority of the World population use games, alcohol, drugs and stress as excuses to do what they always wanted without the burden of having that perceived as their rational decisions. All the posts in this forums are based on the logic that what cant be proven wrong is by definition right. Trying to offend me as anything just proves my point. Feeling offended by my words just prove me right. The fact that I am never met with silence when I say that prove me right. A sane action of a person who thinks they are not a sadist psycho is to just dismiss this words as non-sense. Nice circular logic you have there. You label players of this game and when they pull you up on it, claim that because they do, you are right. Games night at your house, must be a complete blast. Heaven forbid anyone wants to play chess, you never know if they will try and murder you or not.
Learned from the best. All the people here say everything is pvp, and if I say something is not pvp, in doing so I am proving it is pvp. Same principle.
|
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6766
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 23:08:22 -
[587] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Paula Enkhashour wrote:Unless you think that it is derrogatory to be youself, I dont see why "your kind of people" is derrogatory.
It is like, pretending I am my character, it would be offensive for me to be called Khanid. LOL You're trying to categorise and compartmentalise the actions of people you don't like and put it in a nice little package labelled "not normal human behaviour" for the sake of othering the people that play the game in a way you simply don't understand. Then you use terms such as 'sociopath' for those categories without knowing what it means, and the only time people use terms without knowing what they mean as labels is when they're being used as pejoratives, so play the coy passive-aggressive all you want, but what you're doing is nothing new. People who fail at EVE have been trying to do this to their betters since EVE has existed, and you are not making any unique statements or 'observations'. So go ahead, play the coy passive-aggressive all you want, but you'll excuse us if we consider your assertions as little more than the angsty finger-pointing and inability to take responsibility for your own failures that they are. But you are also being offensive and rude, and you're probably going to get called out on that. Who said I dont like them ? First. I am the number one fan of honesty to thyself. Being honest to what oneself is start by being honest to what oneself was and what oneself thinks. Who said it is not normal human behavior ? The majority of the World population use games, alcohol, drugs and stress as excuses to do what they always wanted without the burden of having that perceived as their rational decisions. All the posts in this forums are based on the logic that what cant be proven wrong is by definition right. Trying to offend me as anything just proves my point. Feeling offended by my words just prove me right. The fact that I am never met with silence when I say that prove me right. A sane action of a person who thinks they are not a sadist psycho is to just dismiss this words as non-sense.
Prattle on more about how you didn't lump a bunch of people together and call them all psycopaths or sociopaths as if videogame behaviour is indicative of mental state. It all sounds like you're making excuses for being judgemental to me. I have, not once, tried to offend you. I just call it like it is, and if you are offended by that, then I suggest you re-examine the accusations you've made of others here in these forums.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Mag's
the united
19996
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 23:12:35 -
[588] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:Mag's wrote:Nice circular logic you have there.
You label players of this game and when they pull you up on it, claim that because they do, you are right.
Games night at your house, must be a complete blast. Heaven forbid anyone wants to play chess, you never know if they will try and murder you or not. Learned from the best. All the people here say everything is pvp, and if I say something is not pvp, in doing so I am proving it is pvp. Same principle. Non sequitur. People here state the fact that Eve is PvP centric, that almost all of Eve involves conflict and competition.
You are using circular logic attempting to connect the game and RL.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
65
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 23:17:51 -
[589] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: Prattle on more about how you didn't lump a bunch of people together and call them all psycopaths or sociopaths as if videogame behaviour is indicative of mental state. It all sounds like you're making excuses for being judgemental to me. I have, not once, tried to offend you. I just call it like it is, and if you are offended by that, then I suggest you re-examine the accusations you've made of others here in these forums.
I get the impression she's just having a bit of fun trolling.
Think you're wasting your time talking to her. |
Mag's
the united
19996
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 23:23:10 -
[590] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: Prattle on more about how you didn't lump a bunch of people together and call them all psycopaths or sociopaths as if videogame behaviour is indicative of mental state. It all sounds like you're making excuses for being judgemental to me. I have, not once, tried to offend you. I just call it like it is, and if you are offended by that, then I suggest you re-examine the accusations you've made of others here in these forums.
I get the impression she's just having a bit of fun trolling. Think you're wasting your time talking to her. They seem rather angry, I'd like to know why? People who are angry, tend not to think too clearly and then become defensive. It's all there in their posts, but what's behind it?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
|
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6768
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 23:41:33 -
[591] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: Prattle on more about how you didn't lump a bunch of people together and call them all psycopaths or sociopaths as if videogame behaviour is indicative of mental state. It all sounds like you're making excuses for being judgemental to me. I have, not once, tried to offend you. I just call it like it is, and if you are offended by that, then I suggest you re-examine the accusations you've made of others here in these forums.
I get the impression she's just having a bit of fun trolling. Think you're wasting your time talking to her.
This is not trolling. What UAE does is trolling. This is incohesive garble about how people that gank are mentally challenged. It happens often on these forums, usually with people who have been beaten by someone and they come on here voicing the excuse that their killer is deranged because he chose to blow up spaceships in a game about blowing up spaceships. You'll have to excuse me, though, but I have been around long enough to detect the hint of bitterness in waffling like this.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Paula Enkhashour
World Traders Guild
6
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 23:53:14 -
[592] - Quote
Almost every argument around this forums use the circular logic of RL, and as our friend stated, you are getting emotional. If you are not ingame what you are in RL and vice versa, why does the subject get in your nerves. Why you so eagerly defend the pvp centrism of eve when that accomplishes nothing more than prove what you already think and wont make me change my mind or stop posting ?
You understand what that means at least ?
If you cant simply stop arguing and some of you get that emotional, that means it somehow affects your feelings, ergo, it is the game projected in your real life, as the emotion drawn from satisfaction most of you clearly state when making another person lose their property even if that doesnt benefit you in any other level than that feeling running your body when your gank or preying on the weak has succeded. The fact that you feel something while do something is by definition psychological involvement, and thus, it has a REAL effect on you, from a virtual action you do, so you are drawing real satisfaction from a virtual action, being, by the same logic everything is pvp in eve, every real life reaction to virtual life action, a mix up of both. So in short: If you got a hardon for ganking people who cant pose a threat to you, you are a coward, sick psycho, and as that satisfaction is real and is not resumed as your character taking advantage on that, but the feeling your real self has, it is a real life desire and pradigm, making it a real life sick cowardess. But if you agree that nothing that isnt directly aimed to accomplish a goal is not linked to that goal, then neither everything is pvp, nor your real satisfaction with virtual actions are a sign of real sickness. Your pick. |
Mag's
the united
20000
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 00:00:34 -
[593] - Quote
Non sequitur.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14009
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 00:01:18 -
[594] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:*snipped out word garbage*
Quit yammering already, and write something coherent. The run on sentences alone should be a crime.
Blither on all you want about how much you hate EVE, how much you hate player freedom, and how much you want to remove PvP from the game because you can't manage your own emotions like an adult.
But if you don't quit attacking people's real life with your angry ranting, I'm whistling for the mods.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Paula Enkhashour
World Traders Guild
6
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 00:47:27 -
[595] - Quote
Again the famous forum argumentation:
"You are wrong because I dont understand what you said, and you are wrong because I dont like to read, and you are wrong because you are wrong, and you are wrong because you dont agree with me, and a miriad of simplistic nonsense."
Or, people who add latin definitions to look smart, when not even in a latin originated language forum we are.
But as you desire, I will indulge you in the latin jabber you seem to like so much:
Ad Hominem: almost everyone here at some point used ofenses personally directed to me as an argument, when I never said anyone here as being something or the subject to which I am refeering. I used the terms majority, most, everyone who does this, and so on, and never actually qulified anyone unless it is a general in which all people includes me aswell.
Ad Antiquitatem: The most used one. In any topic discussed here, with or without me posting, there is at least two posts stating that something is true just because it has been considered truth by many for a long time.
Ad Baculum: Not happening now, but have been happening since long time, is to get people to consider what they are saying and admit error under the penalty of being proved wrong by force ingame by means that actually prove nothing. Ergo, getting to prove eve is pvp centric by ganking me or wardeccing my corp.
Ad Ignorantium: The bright star of gaming foruns, to imply that someone must be educated in order to agree with you and say that they only disagree because they dont know what you talking, OR, by the same token, imply that you are wrong because they cant understand what you say.
Ad Nauseum: Admit it, everyone use this one.
Ad Populum: That is the trolls favorite. Say whatever people are agreeing to drawn numbers for your cause. Even some game devs did this at some point.
Ad Ridiculum: ok, guilty as charded. But I said I would do that, not in latin.
*** Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc: Sick people like how this sounds, but many people here have a real good time stating that something is true without really showing it to be.
Non Causa Pro Causa: Similar to the above, but regarding the effects they use as principle for an argument.
Non Sequitur: This is actually the weakest one everyone misuses, and that happened here, because of cicle of the above. If you really know what non sequitur means, you know that by itself it means a lot of things and by definition without context it means nothing. But if you imply by it that I am agreeing with something but deying its causes and/or consequences, you wrongly using your latin, as I am not. I may be using causes and consequences you dont agree with, but the structure in which I use them are right. You may not agree my conclusions are right, that doesnt make them wrong or false unless you prove them to be.
Petitio Principii: Again one used to the oblivion. It is almost funny how many people use this retorical practice to feel they are right even if they usually are not.
Post Hoc: This is one the basis for one of the discussions as it is the sole basis used in the devs speech presented, as it may be something every emotional person without anything to hang use. Also called "throwing but the kitchen sink as argument", I even dismiss post hoc when it is used.
Now that we have all the latin jabber out of the drawer, you can pick one and nauseate with it but in the right circumstances. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14010
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 01:12:13 -
[596] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote: "You are wrong because I dont understand what you said, and you are wrong because I dont like to read, and you are wrong because you are wrong, and you are wrong because you dont agree with me, and a miriad of simplistic nonsense."
That's not why you're wrong. It's been laid out to you quite clearly why you're wrong, you're just dead set on ignoring it.
I ignored the rest of your post because it's not even close to addressing the topic, you're just trying to take up more space to make yourself seem more authoritative than you actually are.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6771
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 01:16:27 -
[597] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:irrelevant jibberish
You are wrong because you are wrong, it's that simple. If you are going to call people sociopaths, you'd better have the damn qualifications to make that call, and you'd better have some evidence other than circumstantial guesswork, such as time spent analysing the subject of your assertion, otherwise it's little more than an angry pejorative. Capiche?
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14010
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 01:17:10 -
[598] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Capiche?
Yes, I'd love one, I haven't eaten all day.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Paula Enkhashour
World Traders Guild
6
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 01:47:02 -
[599] - Quote
Amost forgot: Having psychological involvement, issues or sickness or refering to psycho shorthand for psychological does not equate to call people psychopaths. You really should get your concepts straight before calling people out on things they havent said. And You may be refeering to sociopaths, which I didnt said either.
Still nothing but "you are wrong because you are wrong".
There is nothing but "he said, she said" mentions and this or that insult, this or that throwing of fallacies definitions that has no relation to the issue, and this or that quotes that just mean concept wars.
But there is no argument to what I said.
It is like me saying a chair is not adequate for your back because of this or that, and you replying: "You are wrong because a chair has a place to support your back". Then I say it is true, but that still not good for your back, and you say "But a GM said that chairs have a place to support you back". And from that point on you keep saying: "You are wrong, chairs have support for your back", "You are wrong and still wrong because the chair do have support for your back".
You just keep estabilishing properties when I am talking about methods, and say that I am the one not making sense. |
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6776
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 01:52:09 -
[600] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:Amost forgot: Having psychological involvement, issues or sickness or refering to psycho shorthand for psychological does not equate to call people psychopaths. ,
But it does require qualifications, and evidence. Without them, it's nothing but 'othering'. I see it all the time, and not just on these forums. I wasn't born yesterday. All you're doing is trying to put a label on people that don't behave in the way you want them to. By doing that, you DEMONSTRATE yourself to be a moron. This is not an ad hom, it's not even an insult, just an observed, demonstrated fact, with examples available in every one of your posts.
Paula Enkhashour wrote: It is like me saying a chair is not adequate for your back because of this or that, and you replying: "You are wrong because a chair has a place to support your back".
Except that what I'm actually saying is, "what is your expertise with the spine, and what evidence do you have to support your assertions?"
Again, don't strawman me unless you wanna look more like a moron than you already do.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6781
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 02:05:15 -
[601] - Quote
Let me explain something very simple, Paula. There is only one, just one, psychological evaluation that applies to gamers in regards to gaming: it's called the Bartle Test, and none of the results of the Bartle Test are sicknesses or disorders of any kind, either psychological or otherwise. Which is why no matter the terms you pick to label us, they will all be wrong all of the time unless you have either A. done your evaluation using the Bartle Test, or B. you're a qualified psychologist who has sat down with one of us and done the minimum of seven to eight hours of evaluation required to form an objective diagnosis.
You're also wrong by being what's called, not even wrong. I can see Wolfgang Pauli's reply to almost everything you post in my head: "What you said was so confused that one could not tell whether it was nonsense or not."
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Kaely Tanniss
Black Hydra Consortium.
461
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 02:19:49 -
[602] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:
Your time is coming.
You have two threads here (one from Dec 2014 and one from June 2015) promising rebellion...are you ever actually going to back up your bravado? We might need a poll! A) Yes, any day now! B) Yes, eventually C) Maybe D) Nah, because *reasons* E) LOL Let's respect this topic. We will speak about this in another place. More than a poll, we will give you a personal answer. Wait for it. You won't forget it. Last months, we were very near in space from a lot of the criminals spouting on this thread (and on ours also). They couldn't see us. Very easily, we would have been able to push a button and destroy them. But we are not pitbulls. We prefer to wait for the best solution, the appropriate punishment. We analyze you like animals. Coming back to the topic, we can't agree with some analysis. When you destroy ships, you destroy time of building. You burn time of game we are paying for. So, as you see, even if you play a video game, it has a real impact. No one should be surprised that we try to pay also not to be despoiled of our real money (even if it is in the rules of the game).
LOL...that made me lol in rl. Thanks for the laugh.
If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
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Mag's
the united
20001
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 02:23:52 -
[603] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:Non Sequitur: This is actually the weakest one everyone misuses, and that happened here, because of cicle of the above. If you really know what non sequitur means, you know that by itself it means a lot of things and by definition without context it means nothing. But if you imply by it that I am agreeing with something but deying its causes and/or consequences, you wrongly using your latin, as I am not. I may be using causes and consequences you dont agree with, but the structure in which I use them are right. You may not agree my conclusions are right, that doesnt make them wrong or false unless you prove them to be. Your argument is a non sequitur for the following reasons.
Your argument. A. People who play Eve in a certain way, are psychos. B. People are psychos in real life. C. Therefore people who play Eve in a certain way, are psychos in real life.
Paula Enkhashour wrote:Or, people who add latin definitions to look smart, when not even in a latin originated language forum we are. You'll find the English language littered with many words, from other languages. It's hardly surprising to find Latin in there, considering how old it is.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6781
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 02:25:20 -
[604] - Quote
Oh that time argument? Let me tell you something about time.
EVE is a video game. The moment you log in, you are wasting time. There's nothing wrong with wasting time, especially if you have time to waste, but don't pretend to me like that time you're wasting is somehow more precious than the time I'm wasting playing the same game. If you want to treat it like a second job, that is your prerogative, but if you're going to conflate losing virtual spaceships with someone wasting your precious time, then you need to come back to reality and remember that you were already wasting it yourself, and only have yourself to blame for that.
When you undock in EVE, you consent to PVP. You know this. If you're unhappy with what you're spending on this waste of time, then don't spend it. You have agency over you, and no one else is responsible for your failure to comprehend the nature of this game but you. Because when I log in, it's to waste time and have fun, to blow up stuff and maybe get blown up myself. You're playing a game, enjoy it or cry over it, your choice.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Leto Thule
Origin. Black Legion.
3212
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 05:08:42 -
[605] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Oh that time argument? Let me tell you something about time.
EVE is a video game. The moment you log in, you are wasting time. There's nothing wrong with wasting time, especially if you have time to waste, but don't pretend to me like that time you're wasting is somehow more precious than the time I'm wasting playing the same game. If you want to treat it like a second job, that is your prerogative, but if you're going to conflate losing virtual spaceships with someone wasting your precious time, then you need to come back to reality and remember that you were already wasting it yourself, and only have yourself to blame for that.
When you undock in EVE, you consent to PVP. You know this. If you're unhappy with what you're spending on this waste of time, then don't spend it. You have agency over you, and no one else is responsible for your failure to comprehend the nature of this game but you. Because when I log in, it's to waste time and have fun, to blow up stuff and maybe get blown up myself. You're playing a game, enjoy it or cry over it, your choice.
Does EVE sell boxed copies anymore?
Cause this should be a disclaimer if it does.
Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Kaely Tanniss
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
463
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 07:20:06 -
[606] - Quote
Leto Thule wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Oh that time argument? Let me tell you something about time.
EVE is a video game. The moment you log in, you are wasting time. There's nothing wrong with wasting time, especially if you have time to waste, but don't pretend to me like that time you're wasting is somehow more precious than the time I'm wasting playing the same game. If you want to treat it like a second job, that is your prerogative, but if you're going to conflate losing virtual spaceships with someone wasting your precious time, then you need to come back to reality and remember that you were already wasting it yourself, and only have yourself to blame for that.
When you undock in EVE, you consent to PVP. You know this. If you're unhappy with what you're spending on this waste of time, then don't spend it. You have agency over you, and no one else is responsible for your failure to comprehend the nature of this game but you. Because when I log in, it's to waste time and have fun, to blow up stuff and maybe get blown up myself. You're playing a game, enjoy it or cry over it, your choice. Does EVE sell boxed copies anymore? Cause this should be a disclaimer if it does.
I don't think so...rather I haven't seen a boxed version of Eve in years..but I agree, eve needs one of those pointless warnings like the ones on a cup of coffee "caution, HOT"...you know...because someone will get burned and complain even if it's obvious it's hot...
If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
65
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 07:45:49 -
[607] - Quote
Kaely Tanniss wrote:Leto Thule wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Oh that time argument? Let me tell you something about time.
EVE is a video game. The moment you log in, you are wasting time. There's nothing wrong with wasting time, especially if you have time to waste, but don't pretend to me like that time you're wasting is somehow more precious than the time I'm wasting playing the same game. If you want to treat it like a second job, that is your prerogative, but if you're going to conflate losing virtual spaceships with someone wasting your precious time, then you need to come back to reality and remember that you were already wasting it yourself, and only have yourself to blame for that.
When you undock in EVE, you consent to PVP. You know this. If you're unhappy with what you're spending on this waste of time, then don't spend it. You have agency over you, and no one else is responsible for your failure to comprehend the nature of this game but you. Because when I log in, it's to waste time and have fun, to blow up stuff and maybe get blown up myself. You're playing a game, enjoy it or cry over it, your choice. Does EVE sell boxed copies anymore? Cause this should be a disclaimer if it does. I don't think so...rather I haven't seen a boxed version of Eve in years..but I agree, eve needs one of those pointless warnings like the ones on a cup of coffee "caution, HOT"...you know...because someone will get burned and complain even if it's obvious it's hot...
The terms and conditions would have a disclaimer.
There's two main problems.
1) Some people see their time as money partially because of PLEX as they think that PLEX gives isk a real monetary value.
2) Some people don't really know how to RP they see characters as people sat behind keyboards instead of just characters.
Those that look at the game as in 1) and/or 2) are looking at it the wrong way.
PLEX doesn't have a real monetary value once it has been redeemed in-game it has an isk value. If someone is worried about time spent in-game then maybe they shouldn't be playing games. Other than the social aspect, games are a time sink.
2) speaks for itself no real need to expand on it. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
2960
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 08:12:28 -
[608] - Quote
Kaely Tanniss wrote: I don't think so...rather I haven't seen a boxed version of Eve in years..but I agree, eve needs one of those pointless warnings like the ones on a cup of coffee "caution, HOT"...you know...because someone will get burned and complain even if it's obvious it's hot...
Finally, something of value to discuss in this thread. How did mankind ever survive this long? We went thousands of years without a pack of peanuts having a warning that the product therein may contain traces of nuts. Has our continued existence in the face of such a glaring omission by the nanny state just been a fluke?
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1295
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 08:28:33 -
[609] - Quote
Paula Enkhashour wrote:If you cant simply stop arguing and some of you get that emotional, that means it somehow affects your feelings, ergo, it is the game projected in your real life, as the emotion drawn from satisfaction most of you clearly state when making another person lose their property even if that doesnt benefit you in any other level than that feeling running your body when your gank or preying on the weak has succeded. The fact that you feel something while do something is by definition psychological involvement, and thus, it has a REAL effect on you, from a virtual action you do, so you are drawing real satisfaction from a virtual action, being, by the same logic everything is pvp in eve, every real life reaction to virtual life action, a mix up of both. So in short: If you got a hardon for ganking people who cant pose a threat to you, you are a coward, sick psycho, and as that satisfaction is real and is not resumed as your character taking advantage on that, but the feeling your real self has, it is a real life desire and pradigm, making it a real life sick cowardess. But if you agree that nothing that isnt directly aimed to accomplish a goal is not linked to that goal, then neither everything is pvp, nor your real satisfaction with virtual actions are a sign of real sickness. Your pick. Is it not plausible that I simply view this game as an intellectual exercise where I wish to blow up as many ships (or ISK worth of ships) as possible? Or is it not possible that I have set myself the goal of controlling high security space and to further that goal I am forced by the game mechanics to gank ships that reside there? Perhaps I have realized that I can more efficiently gather resources in this game by taking them from other players? Or perhaps I like to just like to see my name on killboards or on killmails.
Are these goals or reasons "cowardly" in your mind? Perhaps. But why do I have to be motivated by some "pathological" desire to inflict pain on others? You would not level that accusation at a boxer seeking to knock-out another human being in the ring, or the poker player who seeks to inflict financial harm on their poker buddies - both situations that cause actual real-word injury to other humans. People play games generally to win and as long as they stay within the agreed rules that is considered "fair play". In Eve, ganking is intended gameplay and using it to further my goals (i.e. "win") I am doing nothing wrong or that I should feel ashamed of, and especially do not need to be motivated by the sadism that you are accusing your fellow players of.
You can play Eve how you want and you are welcome to judge how other players' in-game actions as "cheap" or "cowardly", but I really don't see how you can ascribe motivations to the players behind the keyboard. You cannot know what motivates me just like I cannot know what motivates you to take whatever in-game actions you participate in. All we can know is that we are both are engaging in legal, approved gameplay which includes suicide ganking of our fellow players as confirmed by CCP multiple times. |
Lady Areola Fappington
2666
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 08:34:05 -
[610] - Quote
OK, time to clarify things just a little more.
Our friend here is looking for the "magic window" of psychology. The "magic window" has been something quested after, off an on, by psychologists since the beginning of psychology itself.
This magic window is thus: strip away ALL outside behavioural pressures, how would this person react? It is, essentially, the Holy Grail of psych, because if we could peek in this magic window, we could find out just who truly has actual psych disorders, and who is just reacting to behavioural stimuli.
The magic window doesn't exist, at least with the technology we have today. The (extremely common) mistake being made here is to assume that the substitution of one set of behaviour pressures for another cancels ALL behaviour pressures that could result in a "false" psychological disorder reading. You see it all the time, when someone says something like "Well how someone behaves when drunk/angry/playing Eve is how they'd ACTUALLY behave without social pressures interfering". That statement is false, because what you are looking at is not how someone REALLY reacts, you're looking at a behaviour set as filtered through being drunk/being angry/playing Eve.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
65
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 08:38:57 -
[611] - Quote
Apparently more women like horror (films/books) than guys.
Seems to me, it's not EVE players you need to worry about it's your wives and girlfriends. |
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1581
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 10:20:12 -
[612] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Apparently more women like horror (films/books) than guys.
Seems to me, it's not EVE players you need to worry about it's your wives and girlfriends. I can confirm this. Both my wife and best friend like horror movies. Personally I can't stand them unless the plot is really good. Or they are like Tremors and they are sooo bad and crappy they are amazing and funny. I can dig a really bad horror movie
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
[s]ISD Dorrim Barstorlode favourite ISD[/s]
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Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6796
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 10:26:41 -
[613] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Avvy wrote:Apparently more women like horror (films/books) than guys.
Seems to me, it's not EVE players you need to worry about it's your wives and girlfriends. I can confirm this. Both my wife and best friend like horror movies. Personally I can't stand them unless the plot is really good. Or they are like Tremors and they are sooo bad and crappy they are amazing and funny. I can dig a really bad horror movie
Event Horizon.
Enough said.
No other horror movie has either held my attention long enough, or had a good enough plot/story, to scare me the way that did. If you haven't seen it, do. It is a horror benchmark that all horror movies should strive to achieve.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1582
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 10:31:13 -
[614] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Avvy wrote:Apparently more women like horror (films/books) than guys.
Seems to me, it's not EVE players you need to worry about it's your wives and girlfriends. I can confirm this. Both my wife and best friend like horror movies. Personally I can't stand them unless the plot is really good. Or they are like Tremors and they are sooo bad and crappy they are amazing and funny. I can dig a really bad horror movie Event Horizon. Enough said. No other horror movie has either held my attention long enough, or had a good enough plot/story, to scare me the way that did. If you haven't seen it, do. It is a horror benchmark that all horror movies should strive to achieve. I've seen it and agree that it is... an experience. I wont watch it again though. The second time I watched it was an attempt to content the wife (aka I wanted to get laid) and at the end of it she wasn't in the mood (can't say I blame her I wasn't really either )
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
[s]ISD Dorrim Barstorlode favourite ISD[/s]
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Kaely Tanniss
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
466
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 01:04:21 -
[615] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Avvy wrote:Apparently more women like horror (films/books) than guys.
Seems to me, it's not EVE players you need to worry about it's your wives and girlfriends. I can confirm this. Both my wife and best friend like horror movies. Personally I can't stand them unless the plot is really good. Or they are like Tremors and they are sooo bad and crappy they are amazing and funny. I can dig a really bad horror movie Event Horizon. Enough said. No other horror movie has either held my attention long enough, or had a good enough plot/story, to scare me the way that did. If you haven't seen it, do. It is a horror benchmark that all horror movies should strive to achieve. I've seen it and agree that it is... an experience. I wont watch it again though. The second time I watched it was an attempt to content the wife (aka I wanted to get laid) and at the end of it she wasn't in the mood (can't say I blame her I wasn't really either )
LOL...sorry to hear that...but yeah...it's not exactly the "get her in the mood" kind of movie. I love horror and sci-fi (yes, I know I'm a freak of nature). Try something less gory..and more suspensful...something that will make he "need your protction"...so to speak :) Supernatural movies are good for that...though there aren't very many good ones.
and yes...it's the wivesand gfs you need to watch out for...*sharpens the axe*
If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6923
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 04:00:14 -
[616] - Quote
CODE. guys don't respond well to psychological assessments.
Wonder what they are afraid of.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6828
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 04:13:18 -
[617] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:CODE. guys don't respond well to psychological assessments.
Wonder what they are afraid of.
Who made a psychological assessment? Please, point them out. Point out their qualifications for said assessment, and please also provide a ledger of the hours spent with the person being assessed.
You can't, because no such assessment took place. What happened was psychological conjecture from unqualified armchair psychologists. I've never responded well to that, even before I was in CODE, even before I played EVE, because that kind of conjecture is used for one thing and one thing only - prescriptive retaliation.
Do you even know what goes into a psychological assessment? Not to mention if actual assessments were taking place here for free, I wish I'd known that sooner, I could have saved a veritable dickload of cash. Like, seriously, a few grand just for an accurate diagnosis, and that's not including seeing a psychiatrist afterwards for a treatment plan.
I'm going to say this one more time: there is one, and only one, psychological assessment that applies to gamers regarding gaming, and that is the Bartle Test. None of the results are psychological conditions or disorders of any kind. Tell you what, why don't you use that for your 'assessment' of CODE members, and tell me what the results are, and I would be able to take you more seriously. But if you're going to pretend for one second that your subjective opinion of people that play a game in a way you don't like is the same thing as a psychological assessment, you are literally less precious than lead paint, and probably just as intelligent.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Mag's
the united
20014
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 05:36:01 -
[618] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:CODE. guys don't respond well to psychological assessments.
Wonder what they are afraid of. That was weak, even by your standards.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2976
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 09:33:40 -
[619] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:CODE. guys don't respond well to psychological assessments.
Wonder what they are afraid of.
Do you have the professional qualifications to assess us? I though not. As is so often the case with you, you got nothing.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1333
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 09:38:56 -
[620] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:CODE. guys don't respond well to psychological assessments.
Wonder what they are afraid of.
oh look an internet physcologist, tell me more about these assessments on internet people who pretend to be pirates
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2979
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 09:44:49 -
[621] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:CODE. guys don't respond well to psychological assessments.
Wonder what they are afraid of. oh look an internet physcologist, tell me more about these assessments on internet people who pretend to be pirates
Maybe he's just role-playing being a psychologist. I can live with that, as long as he sticks to diagnosing my characters and not me.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
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Lady Areola Fappington
2670
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 09:48:02 -
[622] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:CODE. guys don't respond well to psychological assessments.
Wonder what they are afraid of. Do you have the professional qualifications to assess us? I though not. As is so often the case with you, you got nothing.
Hey, I can assess you Root, I've got the mad skills.
Lets see...You're more than likely psychologically stable wrt all major disabling psychological disorders. Most likely pretty creative, with a strong imagination. Firm grasp of the difference between reality and fantasy. There may be some minor self-esteem/self-worth issues, stemming from less socialized teenage years. Overall, therapy wouldn't hurt to iron off the rough spots, but it's not a required thing for further mental health.
The secret catch of that is, I've not actually assessed the good Admiral at all. I've just assessed the typical Eve Online player.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2979
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 09:51:24 -
[623] - Quote
Bringing actual real-world skills and knowledge in the appropriate area is simply not cricket.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Omar Little Fan Club
70
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 09:54:44 -
[624] - Quote
... and as usual, any thread about ganking gets derailed from potentially constructive dialogue of game mechanics into bickering over who said what about whom. Is there a way to request a thread to be closed? |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
71
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 09:58:20 -
[625] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:... and as usual, any thread about ganking gets derailed from potentially constructive dialogue of game mechanics into bickering over who said what about whom. Is there a way to request a thread to be closed?
Only the op can do that, unless the thread becomes unsalvageable or completely derailed. |
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6830
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 10:00:09 -
[626] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:... and as usual, any thread about ganking gets derailed from potentially constructive dialogue of game mechanics into bickering over who said what about whom. Is there a way to request a thread to be closed?
You're right, the discussion was over years ago. Conclusion: high-sec ganking is a legitimate form of EVE Online PVP explicitly allowed within the rules set forth by the Terms of Service and EULA, and by the nature of the game itself, as well as evidence from CCP themselves that ganking does no harm for the game, and may in fact be very healthy for player retention. This thread should, indeed, be locked, because it was never needed to begin with. The case was closed with EVE's inception: ganking is here to stay.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1334
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 10:03:31 -
[627] - Quote
derailing threads is elite forum pvp
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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XeX Znndstrup
69
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 10:53:52 -
[628] - Quote
Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death.
The Law Organization promulgates Republic of Stellar Order
"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light". John Milton, Lost Paradise.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1466
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 11:12:27 -
[629] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death. That's what we do all the time. We sentence illegal ore thieves and their collaborators to death. Resistance is futile! The Code always wins! Are you in need of a mining permit?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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XeX Znndstrup
69
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 11:23:41 -
[630] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death. That's what we do all the time. We sentence illegal ore thieves and their collaborators to death. Resistance is futile! The Code always wins! Are you in need of a mining permit? We believe Nature is for everyone. No mining permit necessary. On the other side, we offer life permit just before you're under arrest. May you use that submissively.
The Law Organization promulgates Republic of Stellar Order
"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light". John Milton, Lost Paradise.
|
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Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6834
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 12:17:51 -
[631] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death. That's what we do all the time. We sentence illegal ore thieves and their collaborators to death. Resistance is futile! The Code always wins! Are you in need of a mining permit? We believe Nature is for everyone.
Then go outside. You're talking about pixels here mate.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
1010
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 13:43:57 -
[632] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death. That's what we do all the time. We sentence illegal ore thieves and their collaborators to death. Resistance is futile! The Code always wins! Are you in need of a mining permit? We believe Nature is for everyone. No mining permit necessary. On the other side, we offer life permit just before you're under arrest. May you use that submissively. Not sure if roleplaying or shamelessly bringing RL into the game.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24565
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 14:15:54 -
[633] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death. That's what we do all the time. We sentence illegal ore thieves and their collaborators to death. Resistance is futile! The Code always wins! Are you in need of a mining permit? We believe Nature is for everyone. No mining permit necessary. On the other side, we offer life permit just before you're under arrest. May you use that submissively. Not sure if roleplaying or shamelessly bringing RL into the game. He could be using a poorly written collection of automated scripts to produce his forum posts, I've seen IRC bots that make more sense than he does.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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XeX Znndstrup
69
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 15:29:32 -
[634] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death. That's what we do all the time. We sentence illegal ore thieves and their collaborators to death. Resistance is futile! The Code always wins! Are you in need of a mining permit? We believe Nature is for everyone. No mining permit necessary. On the other side, we offer life permit just before you're under arrest. May you use that submissively. Not sure if roleplaying or shamelessly bringing RL into the game. He could be using a poorly written collection of automated scripts to produce his forum posts, I've seen IRC bots that make more sense than he does.
Hey, didn't you use exactly the same words in our threads ? IRC bots, you said, didn't you ?
The Law Organization promulgates Republic of Stellar Order
"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light". John Milton, Lost Paradise.
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1470
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 16:10:35 -
[635] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death. That's what we do all the time. We sentence illegal ore thieves and their collaborators to death. Resistance is futile! The Code always wins! Are you in need of a mining permit? We believe Nature is for everyone. No mining permit necessary. On the other side, we offer life permit just before you're under arrest. May you use that submissively. I am not sure why I need a "life permit" just for the forums, since this is the only place you operate.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24569
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 19:46:48 -
[636] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Hey, didn't you use exactly the same words in our threads ? IRC bots, you said, didn't you ? Yes I did, it was true then and it's still true now.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6934
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 20:10:25 -
[637] - Quote
Point proven.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Mag's
the united
20026
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 23:15:08 -
[638] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Point proven.
Your failure is already known about. We don't need confirmation from you about that.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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XeX Znndstrup
69
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 08:06:19 -
[639] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death. That's what we do all the time. We sentence illegal ore thieves and their collaborators to death. Resistance is futile! The Code always wins! Are you in need of a mining permit? We believe Nature is for everyone. No mining permit necessary. On the other side, we offer life permit just before you're under arrest. May you use that submissively. I am not sure why I need a "life permit" just for the forums, since this is the only place you operate.
You are right. Better to be "not sure".
At this point, seriously, peraphs you should start to understand that : - such a topic show you that citizens of New Eden ask for a punishment, - we have been broadcasting for some months. Only scamming ? We didn't try to contact diplomats of the biggest alliances during this time ? We didn't build anything during this time ? Of course, the biggest alliances like pirats ? They like them for their business ?
If some decided to be thiefs, some can now decide to find means against thiefs and murderers.
Who will be able to make us stop on this mission ? Will you resist a long time against the biggest alliances or armed mercenaries ?
We let you and your brothers time to think about this. That's what we offer, indeed. A life permit before blood and fire.
You seem to be more intelligent than some of your aggressive brothers. Try to understand. Try to explain them.
We will offer them that only one time. Before the punishment.
In the name of Justice. Our Justice.
The Law Organization promulgates Republic of Stellar Order
"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light". John Milton, Lost Paradise.
|
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6840
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 08:31:18 -
[640] - Quote
I wish word salad was a healthy diet choice because I would have just had my fill.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 09:23:57 -
[641] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:
If some decided to be thieves, some can now decide to find means against thieves and murderers.
Who will be able to make us stop on this mission ? Will you resist a long time against the biggest alliances or armed mercenaries ?
I thought great players making content.
Then you ruin it with this.
XeX Znndstrup wrote: We let you and your brothers time to think about this. That's what we offer, indeed. A life permit before blood and fire.
You seem to be more intelligent than some of your aggressive brothers. Try to understand. Try to explain them.
We will offer them that only one time. Before the punishment.
In the name of Justice. Our Justice.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1483
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 10:42:56 -
[642] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote: We let you and your brothers time to think about this. That's what we offer, indeed. A life permit before blood and fire.
You seem to be more intelligent than some of your aggressive brothers. Try to understand. Try to explain them.
I already told them to not worry, because I can successfully defend everyone from you single-handedly with my elite forum warrior skills. I don't even need a spaceship.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
205
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 12:33:50 -
[643] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death.
How has this guy not been on Minerbumping yet? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24580
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 12:42:19 -
[644] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death.
How has this guy not been on Minerbumping yet? CODE.'s native speaker of gibberish is currently taking a remedial language class.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1485
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 14:09:30 -
[645] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death.
How has this guy not been on Minerbumping yet? Because it's a blog about stuff that actually happens in EVE
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Globby
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE.
185
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 14:30:59 -
[646] - Quote
The free market basically pushes the ganking of freighters one way or another.
I regularly haul tens of billions and I'm never ganked. I wonder why. |
XeX Znndstrup
69
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 15:45:25 -
[647] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death.
How has this guy not been on Minerbumping yet? Because it's a blog about stuff that actually happens in EVE
Minerbumping home page was written by a paranoiac during a fit of furious madness. We recommend not to read more than first lines to keep sane.
Out of game : you succeeded in making us laugh, mate. Thanks for that. In game : so that you can be our chronicker, we will destroy you after your brothers. Do you appreciate it ?
That was our last post on this thread. Come back to the original subject : the appropriate punishment.
Regards.
The Law Organization promulgates Republic of Stellar Order
"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light". John Milton, Lost Paradise.
|
Mag's
the united
20032
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 15:49:30 -
[648] - Quote
Has anyone else noticed that your tastes change radically in certain areas, as you get older? I'm approaching the mid point and I have really gone off sausages.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1630
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 15:49:35 -
[649] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death.
How has this guy not been on Minerbumping yet? Because it's a blog about stuff that actually happens in EVE Minerbumping home page was written by a paranoiac during a fit of furious madness. We recommend not to read more than first lines to keep sane. Out of game : you succeeded in making us laugh, mate. Thanks for that. In game : so that you can be our chronicker, we will destroy you after your brothers. Do you appreciate it ? That was our last post on this thread. Come back to the original subject : the appropriate punishment. Regards. Wait I understood something there. Oh Bob its contagious help
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
[s]ISD Dorrim Barstorlode favourite ISD[/s]
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Noragen Neirfallas
Dedicated and Dangerous The Marmite Collective
1630
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 15:51:15 -
[650] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Has anyone else noticed that your tastes change radically in certain areas, as you get older? I'm approaching the mid point and I have really gone off sausages.
Heh funny my missus is experiencing their same thing. But I feel we are probably talking about different things...
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
[s]ISD Dorrim Barstorlode favourite ISD[/s]
|
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Mag's
the united
20034
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 16:05:46 -
[651] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Mag's wrote:Has anyone else noticed that your tastes change radically in certain areas, as you get older? I'm approaching the mid point and I have really gone off sausages.
Heh funny my missus is experiencing their same thing. But I feel we are probably talking about different things... Probably yea, in fact most likely.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation
1901
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 20:19:27 -
[652] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Has anyone else noticed that your tastes change radically in certain areas, as you get older?
Yeah, I'm not quite as big a fan of concord as I used to be.
Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14084
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 20:41:32 -
[653] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:Mag's wrote:Has anyone else noticed that your tastes change radically in certain areas, as you get older?
Yeah, I'm not quite as big a fan of concord as I used to be.
I prefer white grapes. Especially that sparkling juice kind. Good alternative to actual booze, got hooked on it the last time my wife was pregnant.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Zimmy Zeta
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
59236
|
Posted - 2015.08.11 20:52:40 -
[654] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death.
How has this guy not been on Minerbumping yet? Because it's a blog about stuff that actually happens in EVE Minerbumping home page was written by a paranoiac during a fit of furious madness. We recommend not to read more than first lines to keep sane. Out of game : you succeeded in making us laugh, mate. Thanks for that. In game : so that you can be our chronicker, we will destroy you after your brothers. Do you appreciate it ? That was our last post on this thread. Come back to the original subject : the appropriate punishment. Regards.
Who exactly is this "we" you speak of ? The Royal We? Or your NPC corp ?
I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it.
Yes, I do feel bad about it.
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
209
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Posted - 2015.08.11 21:46:58 -
[655] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death.
How has this guy not been on Minerbumping yet? Because it's a blog about stuff that actually happens in EVE
Oh...so he'd have to bloviate in local, private chats, or emails in game like the other non rebellions? Gotcha! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6941
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Posted - 2015.08.11 21:52:49 -
[656] - Quote
Globby wrote:The free market basically pushes the ganking of freighters one way or another.
I regularly haul tens of billions and I'm never ganked. I wonder why.
Because they all know who your freighter alts are.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Lady Areola Fappington
2675
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Posted - 2015.08.11 23:01:15 -
[657] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Globby wrote:The free market basically pushes the ganking of freighters one way or another.
I regularly haul tens of billions and I'm never ganked. I wonder why. Because they all know who your freighter alts are.
You'd think it'd be a pretty amazing coup for someone to gank Globby's freighter alts. I mean, that's a pretty big feather in the cap right there.
Then again, who am I kidding? My mission running alt is pretty well-known with a modicum of research, I've parked her in the minerbumping channel, acted as scout with her for ganks.....and still flown a mulitbillion ISK marauder past Anti-ganker "camps" with nay more than a smile and "Praise James 315!"
Outside of a few specific exceptions, expecting the rebels to step up and do something about gankers is kind of a futile gesture. They value their arbitrarily assigned database integers too much.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
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XeX Znndstrup
69
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Posted - 2015.08.12 08:14:52 -
[658] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Psychopathy isn't a mitigating circumstance if you are an assassin and a scoundrel. Sentence : death.
How has this guy not been on Minerbumping yet? Because it's a blog about stuff that actually happens in EVE Minerbumping home page was written by a paranoiac during a fit of furious madness. We recommend not to read more than first lines to keep sane. Out of game : you succeeded in making us laugh, mate. Thanks for that. In game : so that you can be our chronicker, we will destroy you after your brothers. Do you appreciate it ? That was our last post on this thread. Come back to the original subject : the appropriate punishment. Regards. Sorry, just dropped into this thread and a little curious: Who exactly is this "we" you speak of ? The Royal We? Or your NPC corp ?
Only an answer. Neither first nor the other.
But plural, yes. So many. Everywhere. We let you finish your good analysis.
Eve is real. We are real. Even if some prefer to behave like a space ostrich and imagine a forum only thing.
Regards.
PS : for any other questions, you can contact our armed group only mailing to President XeX Znndstrup.
The Law Organization promulgates Republic of Stellar Order
"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light". John Milton, Lost Paradise.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
92
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Posted - 2015.08.12 08:26:01 -
[659] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote: Only an answer. Neither first nor the other.
But plural, yes. So many. Everywhere. We let you finish your good analysis.
Eve is real. We are real. Even if some prefer to behave like a space ostrich and imagine a forum only thing.
Regards.
PS : for any other questions, you can contact our armed group only mailing to President XeX Znndstrup.
Normally I say post with an alt as it doesn't matter it's what is being said that counts.
But in your case, posting with an alt with what's being said makes no sense as nobody will take you seriously. |
XeX Znndstrup
69
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Posted - 2015.08.12 09:21:54 -
[660] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Normally I say post with an alt as it doesn't matter it's what is being said that counts. But in your case, posting with an alt with what's being said makes no sense as nobody will take you seriously.
But what did we receive again ? Yes, it's a new mail in our mailbox. We read. Oh ! A proposal !
As you see, an alt is not useful to say things that make no sense. A main is able also. Is it your main ?
Let's stop this controversy. Misinformation is a well known strategy. We suffer it also in our threads. But it has no impact. We conclude only you will not contact us. Let others do as they feel.
Definitely now, we stop the exchange on this thread.
See you, elsewhere.
The Law Organization promulgates Republic of Stellar Order
"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light". John Milton, Lost Paradise.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14093
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Posted - 2015.08.12 09:22:38 -
[661] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote:Avvy wrote:Normally I say post with an alt as it doesn't matter it's what is being said that counts. But in your case, posting with an alt with what's being said makes no sense as nobody will take you seriously. But what did we receive again ? Yes, it's a new mail in our mailbox. We read. Oh ! A proposal ! As you see, an alt is not useful to say things that make no sense. A main is able also. Is it your main ? Let's stop this controversy. Misinformation is a well known strategy. We suffer it also in our threads. But it has no impact. We conclude only you will not contact us. Let others do as they feel. Definitely now, we stop the exchange on this thread. See you, elsewhere.
Ladies and gentlemen, don't smoke crack.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kooshti
Bargain Booze
30
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Posted - 2015.08.12 10:29:20 -
[662] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:XeX Znndstrup wrote:Avvy wrote:Normally I say post with an alt as it doesn't matter it's what is being said that counts. But in your case, posting with an alt with what's being said makes no sense as nobody will take you seriously. But what did we receive again ? Yes, it's a new mail in our mailbox. We read. Oh ! A proposal ! As you see, an alt is not useful to say things that make no sense. A main is able also. Is it your main ? Let's stop this controversy. Misinformation is a well known strategy. We suffer it also in our threads. But it has no impact. We conclude only you will not contact us. Let others do as they feel. Definitely now, we stop the exchange on this thread. See you, elsewhere. Ladies and gentlemen, don't smoke crack.
if strangers offer you drugs, say thank you because drugs are expensive
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
92
|
Posted - 2015.08.12 20:58:00 -
[663] - Quote
XeX Znndstrup wrote: Is it your main ?
It's my only character.
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goodlady Smith
Exit-Strategy Exit Strategy..
6
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Posted - 2015.08.12 23:04:27 -
[664] - Quote
It is interesting that you cant adequately / proactively defend your goods in HS.
In ancient Rome to get your good to market you hired some big strong / bad looking guys and the deal was if you can get my s**t through these guys its all yours.
Couple of interesting options: In HS all safety is set to green and you can't change, its a relatively simple code change. You can insure your trip against an NPC corp / or players could take up providing insurance, this would be an interesting business opportunity.
You can buy a 'licence' to proactively defend your ship against any player within 150km who has a 0.0 sec / gank status* this is extended to your fleet and centered around a set ship(s). - This would make HS hauling alot more fun.
gank status is applied to any player who is recorded against more then 2 HS KM that are not "Defenders" of the hauling ship. To remove the gank status / flag you need to hand in concord(?) tags or pay a fine.
- ok tear this apart =D
Please like my posts it makes me feel better about the time I spend on the forums
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1367
|
Posted - 2015.08.12 23:20:55 -
[665] - Quote
goodlady Smith wrote:It is interesting that you cant adequately / proactively defend your goods in HS.
In ancient Rome to get your good to market you hired some big strong / bad looking guys and the deal was if you can get my s**t through these guys its all yours.
Couple of interesting options: In HS all safety is set to green and you can't change, its a relatively simple code change. You can insure your trip against an NPC corp / or players could take up providing insurance, this would be an interesting business opportunity.
You can buy a 'licence' to proactively defend your ship against any player within 150km who has a 0.0 sec / gank status* this is extended to your fleet and centered around a set ship(s). - This would make HS hauling alot more fun.
gank status is applied to any player who is recorded against more then 2 HS KM that are not "Defenders" of the hauling ship. To remove the gank status / flag you need to hand in concord(?) tags or pay a fine.
- ok tear this apart =D
Lets just nip that idea in bud yeah? k
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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goodlady Smith
Exit-Strategy Exit Strategy..
6
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Posted - 2015.08.12 23:23:57 -
[666] - Quote
Why? You could have epic HS battles
Please like my posts it makes me feel better about the time I spend on the forums
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24648
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Posted - 2015.08.13 01:20:11 -
[667] - Quote
goodlady Smith wrote:It is interesting that you cant adequately / proactively defend your goods in HS. You can, but it requires effort, something many people aren't willing to invest.
Quote:In ancient Rome to get your good to market you hired some big strong / bad looking guys and the deal was if you can get my s**t through these guys its all yours. In Eve you can bring along friends with webs to help you by slingshotting your hauler into warp so fast that gankers generally can't get get near it. the above mentioned friends can also shoot flashy red pirates in the face without any loss of sec status or Concord/ Faction Police interference. not put all of your eggs in one basket. be at the keyboard instead of using autopilot. fly something that aligns quickly (for a hauler) and has a tank. contract your stuff, with suitable collateral, out to people that know how to haul properly.
Quote:Couple of interesting options: In HS all safety is set to green and you can't change, its a relatively simple code change. You can insure your trip against an NPC corp / or players could take up providing insurance, this would be an interesting business opportunity. First option, nope. I'm a frikking bear and even I can see just how terrible an idea this is. Second option, insurance for your trip is already available, it's called thinking about what you're doing, and utilising the mechanics and social structures that are available to minimise the risks.
Quote:You can buy a 'licence' to proactively defend your ship against any player within 150km who has a 0.0 sec / gank status* this is extended to your fleet and centered around a set ship(s). - This would make HS hauling alot more fun. Most gankers are already universally engageable without penalty beyond a combat timer, by virtue of their security status.
Quote:gank status is applied to any player who is recorded against more then 2 HS KM that are not "Defenders" of the hauling ship. To remove the gank status / flag you need to hand in concord(?) tags or pay a fine. Overly wide criteria, when a player is unshipped by another player a KM is generated regardless of whether it's by suicide gank or other combat mechanic. With that in mind how would your system differentiate between people who suicide gank and others that engage in hisec combat such as RvB or mercenaries?
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6966
|
Posted - 2015.08.13 07:44:07 -
[668] - Quote
Globby wrote:The free market basically pushes the ganking of freighters one way or another.
I regularly haul tens of billions and I'm never ganked. I wonder why.
You are not on everybody's blue list it appears.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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