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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.05 22:08:00 -
[61]
Being able to do it and being able to do it well are two TOTALLY different things. Assault ships can do level 3's and maybe even some level 4's.... doesn't mean they do them well. A raven would do a level 3 in a fraction of the time of an assault ship, as would a Cerb. I hope a ton of people do level 4's in drakes... they will be doing them a lot slower than people that use ships that are better armed.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Karandor
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Posted - 2006.12.05 22:19:00 -
[62]
Very true I can do levels 3s in my jaguar but my hurricane is MUCH MUCH faster.
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Enkilil
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Posted - 2006.12.05 22:44:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Enkilil on 05/12/2006 22:51:45
Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
the Ferox didnt do all that bad in L4 angels ganza. and whats the big deal if the drake can do it. it doesnt hurt you in any way if a tech 1 ship can perform close to that of tech 2. next thing people will complain the new BCs are better then HACs as well.
But... they are... by quite a large margin... example, just off the top of my head: anyone w/ the skills to fly a Deimos would benefit more from a Myrmidon than they ever would from that nerfed up camoflauge P.O.S.
Why train 1 1/2 months for a HAC when (unless you fly Minmatar or a Cerberus) they are pretty much useless nerfed cruisers with a few resistances? please... anyone with half a brain would drop the 50 mil and get a BC with a few days of training and accomplish the same thing.
No one expects any ship to be a solo pwnmobile... but I would expect a ship to justify what I just spent xxx days training for. ghey.
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The Hardman
Amarr Sausage Commandos
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Posted - 2006.12.05 22:58:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia T2 takes longer to train for, and T2 mods are harder to fit.
Well, that is true of T2 modules. But what was the weakness of T2 ships?
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Egil Kolsto
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Posted - 2006.12.05 22:58:00 -
[65]
Quote : The nighthawk can tank 632.65 damage at peak recharge averaged against all 4 resists. EM=61.19% or 266.38 max EM tank Expl=84.48% or 665.95 max Expl tank Kin=85.45% or 710.34 max Kin tank Therm=88.36% or 887.93 max Therm tank
What modules did you slap onto that Nighthawk? Personally I come up with 90+ on all resists should I ever fly a ship that require such insane skills to get into.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.06 04:21:00 -
[66]
"Why train 1 1/2 months for a HAC when (unless you fly Minmatar or a Cerberus) they are pretty much useless nerfed cruisers with a few resistances?"
The Cerberus is fairly worthless now too. The Drake is better than the Cerb in just about every way...
"What modules did you slap onto that Nighthawk? Personally I come up with 90+ on all resists should I ever fly a ship that require such insane skills to get into."
Med: 3 Large Extender II, 2 Inv II Low: 3 SPR, 2 PDS
Sure, if you buy faction invulns you could get better resists... but this is the best setup using standard gear. A 200 mil ship is cheap... spending 200+ mil on one module is not... at least to me. I consider nighthawks to be extremely under-priced at 200 mil considering their tank + dps potential now.
Using specific hardeners will yield worse overall resists but better resists to those specific resists. If you wanna give me a specific setup to try I'll try it. I can handle any passive or active shield tank... just give me the exact specs of any faction item and ill input it and tell you how good it does.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
slothe
Caldari Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.06 04:34:00 -
[67]
nerf the drake?
Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.12.06 04:45:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Natasha Kerensky The REAL question is:
Can the Drake solo lvl4 missions?
A passive tanked missile Ferox can solo some level 4s, so...
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.12.06 04:58:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Enkilil Edited by: Enkilil on 05/12/2006 22:51:45
Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
the Ferox didnt do all that bad in L4 angels ganza. and whats the big deal if the drake can do it. it doesnt hurt you in any way if a tech 1 ship can perform close to that of tech 2. next thing people will complain the new BCs are better then HACs as well.
But... they are... by quite a large margin... example, just off the top of my head: anyone w/ the skills to fly a Deimos would benefit more from a Myrmidon than they ever would from that nerfed up camoflauge P.O.S.
Why train 1 1/2 months for a HAC when (unless you fly Minmatar or a Cerberus) they are pretty much useless nerfed cruisers with a few resistances? please... anyone with half a brain would drop the 50 mil and get a BC with a few days of training and accomplish the same thing.
No one expects any ship to be a solo pwnmobile... but I would expect a ship to justify what I just spent xxx days training for. ghey.
If HAC costs were back down around 50-60mil like they were when I started last year, you'd jump into one without thinking twice.
You don't accomplish the same things, because the two ships are not ment to be the same.
Personally I'd use a Cerb over a Drake if they both cost around the same (the cerb's cheaper to build I remind you), or even if the cerb was alittle more.
Course NH > both so meh.
HACs do justify the time you spent training for them, they are specialized ships. You specialize for an edge, not to be the embodiment of pwnage.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.12.06 04:59:00 -
[70]
NIGHTHAWK FULL PASSIVE ALL-OUT-TANK NOTE: All relevant skills assumed to be L5, 5% gnome implants also assumed to be plugged in.
Base resists: 25/70/71.875/77.5 Base shield: 4805 * 1.25 * 1.05 = 6306.5625 HP Base recharge: 1250 * 0.75 * 0.95 = 890.625 sec Peak recharge: 17.7 shield per second Now, this is a module-less, rig-less ship, this is from skills and implants only.
Obviously, EM resist needs most work, so we slap on a T2 passive EM for starters (-46.875% EM damage, EM resist up to 60.156%). 4 midslots remaining. You can argue as much as you want, but for passive tanks, SPRs are THE best lowslot alternative (especially if used in conjunction with passive hardners). A LSE2 is 2625 (*1.25*1.05=3445.3125 HP after skills and implant). 1st added one is a +54.6% increase, 2nd one is a +35.5% increase, 3rd one would only be about +26.1% increase so we won't slap that on just yet. We have 2 midslots remaining. Now, you could risk it and go with a T2 invul, but if you run out of cap, that one becomes next to useless (-15% damage, stacking nerfed a bit for EM). Personally, I'd just go with either a second EM passive resist here (stacking nerfed to -40.3125% EM damage, EM resist becoming 76.218%) and the 3rd extender if you have no idea of what to expect... or with two of the other 3 hardners, depending on your expected target damage types.
So, we have: 5x SPR Is, 3x LSE IIs, 2x Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Resists: 76.218/70/71.875/77.5 Shield hitpoints: 6306.5625 + 3x3445.3125 = 16642.5 Recharge time: 890.625 * 0.8^5 = 291.84 seconds Peak recharge: 142.56/second Max DPS resisted : 599/475/507/634
Ok, so not impressed yet ? FOR A FULL PASSIVE TANK ?
SPR Is are available for next to nothing pretty much everywhere, invention is cheap for them, so expect to see some SPR IIs hiting the markets soon enough. I guess you won't spare much effort and get your hands (eventually) on two purger II rigs and plug'em in, you won't regret it. Let's redo this with 5xSPR IIs and 2xPurger IIs.
The only thing we change is the recharge times. Recharge time: 890.625 * 0.76^5 * 0.75^2 = 127.023 seconds Peak recharge: 327.54 shield/second Max DPS resisted : 1377/1092/1165/1456
Again, I am repeating, on a FULL PASSIVE setup. No officer stuff, just plain'ol'vanilla T2 stuff. Ok, the Purger2 rigs might be a bit expensive at first, and probably the SPR2s too, but they'll eventually settle. _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.12.06 05:01:00 -
[71]
Originally by: The Hardman
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia T2 takes longer to train for, and T2 mods are harder to fit.
Well, that is true of T2 modules. But what was the weakness of T2 ships?
Limited availability, much more logistics required in their creation*, much more materials used in construction, longer build time, long training time before you can use them, overconfidence, poor gas mileage, large insurance gap due to high demand and low supply.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.12.06 05:03:00 -
[72]
To put it into perspective, if you EVER encounter 2 NOS-Domis, regardless of drones they might use, and no matter how much NOSing they might try to "suck" out of you, your shields will keep steady at around 45-55% with you AFK. _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.12.06 05:07:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Akita T *snip*
If T2 SPRs aren't seeded in the lottery, you won't be able to invent them. Your math isnt anything new though, I posted similiar info in pottsey's thread about having a 218/shield peak on her (gallente) ship.
Use a Vulutre if you're going for ultimate passive tank though, it's even more powerful.
Also, with the passive tank setup you have listed, you cannot fit a rack of T2 heavy missile launchers. You need two PDU IIs and near-max fitting skills to get 3 T2 extenders and 6 launchers fitted. You'll get 3-4 on your uber tank setup, and while nobody will break your tank easily, you won't be breaking theirs either.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.12.06 05:11:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Akita T To put it into perspective, if you EVER encounter 2 NOS-Domis, regardless of drones they might use, and no matter how much NOSing they might try to "suck" out of you, your shields will keep steady at around 45-55% with you AFK.
right up until your hardeners deactivate because you have no cap.
Then you have a nice EM-hole, and they swap drones, and you die.
Lets not forget that *5* SPRs will completely destroy your cap regen, and keeping hardeners running forever with 5 sprs isn't possible. Even with max cap skill, 2 invulns will drain your cap with 2 SPRS fitted unless you have PDUs to help offset.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.12.06 05:20:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Akita T on 06/12/2006 05:25:55 Well, T2 rig BPOs won't get seeded either, they specifically said that in the (now deleted) Kali feedback subforum, and they also said "will be available exclusively through invention". So, it's kind of arguable wether or not the SPR IIs can actually be invented, but unless somebody actually tries with the proper components and still gets an error message, I can safely assume they are "ok to go".
NH has a PG of 710 MW, 887.5 MW with Engineering L5. You use 2 MW for the amplifiers. One LSE II needs 165 MW * 0.75 (L5 skill) * 0.95 (gnome implant) = 117.5625 MW * 3 = 352.6875 MW (about 532.8 MW left). Nothing else except the launchers uses PG. To fit 6 of them, you need a weapon that only uses 88.8 MW a piece. Sadly true, you need 90 MW for T1 and 94.5 MW for T2 heavies, leaving you (in the T2 version) with 34.2 MW of PG short.
Swapping a single SPR II with a PDU II will enable you to fit a full rack of T2 launchers. And you still have over 1000 DPS tanked vs all resists, completely NOS immune.
_____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.12.06 05:22:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Akita T on 06/12/2006 05:23:08
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia right up until your hardeners deactivate because you have no cap. Then you have a nice EM-hole, and they swap drones, and you die. Lets not forget that *5* SPRs will completely destroy your cap regen, and keeping hardeners running forever with 5 sprs isn't possible. Even with max cap skill, 2 invulns will drain your cap with 2 SPRS fitted unless you have PDUs to help offset.
HELLO ? Have you even READ my post ? 5x SPR, 3x LSE IIs, 2x Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
I was using PASSIVE EM hardners, there's not a single module in the entire setup that uses any capacitor whatsoever. And in case you haven't noticed, there is no "EM hole", actually EM is the STRONGEST resist of the setup _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.06 06:22:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr From what a friend tells me his drake tanks Lvl 4 Angel Extravaganza faily easily. I'd say that makes it a little overpowered tbfh.
I'd expect the Commandship to do it, not a T1 BC.
the Ferox didnt do all that bad in L4 angels ganza. and whats the big deal if the drake can do it. it doesnt hurt you in any way if a tech 1 ship can perform close to that of tech 2. next thing people will complain the new BCs are better then HACs as well.
The old BC's are better then Hac's in capable hands.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.06 07:58:00 -
[78]
Anyone who thinks a Cerb is better than a drake is dreaming. The cerb is a worthless ship now imo... I've had one for quite a while and I have an Eagle. Both ships are worthless in PvE. The Raven outdid the Cerb pre-patch and the Drake outdoes the Raven + Cerb now (for level 3's that is).
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.12.06 19:32:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Pottsey on 06/12/2006 19:38:20 öUse a Vulutre if you're going for ultimate passive tank though, it's even more powerfulàà. You'll get 3-4 on your uber tank setup, and while nobody will break your tank easily, you won't be breaking theirs either.ö You just answer why we donÆt use a Vulture a tank that can do nothing else is useless. ThatÆs why I like my Eos great tank and great DPS. Same for the Nighthawk much better DPS over a Vulture.
Akita T is right the command ships do work. I have me setup a little different as I only fight serps that do kin + thermal also itÆs a fleet not field but thereÆs not much difference tanking wise. Here is my current PvE setup http://www.dissonance-corp.com/screenshots/passiveshieldtankeosmk8.JPG without rigs and its pretty much 100% passive apart from the mid slot archaeology module and high slot modules. Still got some tweaking to go yet, I reckon I can get a lot more of out it without rigs. ItÆs pretty good considering its immune to Nos/cap drain and not every single slot is used for tanking. If your doing PvP you could always swap the archaeology module for a passive EM hardener.
EDIT: With 95% resistance and 14k hitpoints half the time I donÆt even need the passive HP regen.
ôSo, it's kind of arguable wether or not the SPR IIs can actually be invented, but unless somebody actually tries with the proper components and still gets an error message, I can safely assume they are "ok to go".ö I donÆt know about now after the patch but you get an error message per patch. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.12.07 00:23:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/12/2006 05:38:47 Edited by: Akita T on 06/12/2006 05:23:08
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia right up until your hardeners deactivate because you have no cap. Then you have a nice EM-hole, and they swap drones, and you die. Lets not forget that *5* SPRs will completely destroy your cap regen, and keeping hardeners running forever with 5 sprs isn't possible. Even with max cap skill, 2 invulns will drain your cap with 2 SPRS fitted unless you have PDUs to help offset.
HELLO ? Have you even READ my post ? 5x SPR, 3x LSE IIs, 2x Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
I was using PASSIVE EM hardners, there's not a single module in the entire setup that uses any capacitor whatsoever.
Oh right, I haven't seen passive hardeners for so long I forgot their name.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.12.07 00:36:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 06/12/2006 19:38:20 öUse a Vulutre if you're going for ultimate passive tank though, it's even more powerfulàà. You'll get 3-4 on your uber tank setup, and while nobody will break your tank easily, you won't be breaking theirs either.ö You just answer why we donÆt use a Vulture a tank that can do nothing else is useless. ThatÆs why I like my Eos great tank and great DPS. Same for the Nighthawk much better DPS over a Vulture.
That's not really true. The setup listed above with the 3 extenders, full lows of SPRS...etc, does not fit with a full rack of t2 launchers. I dont believe a full rack of Malkuth heavies fit either (dont have 6 to check with).
If you can only fit 3-4 Heavy Missile launchers on the Nighthawk, your DPS are going to be in-line with a Vulture's, so unless you drop some SPRs for PDUs, which weakens the tank a fair bit, you won't have the full DPS edge with the NH over the Vulture. It's an uber setup, but due to the lack of launchers, the DPS will not be very noteworthy, and the DPS advantage of the NH over the Vulture diminshes.
Don't get me wrong, I love my NH, and my fitting skills are nearly maxxed, but if you're using a T2 setup, you're not fitting 3 extenders and 6 launchers without 2, possibly 3 PDUs (depends on fitting skills). Dropping down to named launchers to avoid an extra PDU is possible, but you're looking at at least a 2-10% DPS drop at the least. Considerably more if you use a 'lower grade' named type like Malkuth, and you're sitting on a lvl 4 or 5 heavy missile spec. As much as I love my NH, the idea of quite possibly cutting my DPS in half to have some uber tank, which in many cases isn't needed, is something I'm not really in favor of.
But the ability to have utterly insane passive tanking isn't new to me, I mentioned the ability to go over 300shield/sec peak a week or so ago. However getting that tanking means your DPS are not going to be very good, and when you're either not fitting a full rack of launchers, or fitting slow firing named launchers, compared to T2 rails on the Vulture, both having no damage mods, the DPS advantage of the NH becomes smaller, and the slightly better tank of the Vulture is indeed a factor in the two. The upsde is the NH won't need cap, the Vulture will, and with 5 SPRs, you're pretty screwed for firing your guns.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.12.07 07:17:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Pottsey on 07/12/2006 07:18:46 ôThat's not really true. The setup listed above with the 3 extenders, full lows of SPRS...etc, does not fit with a full rack of t2 launchers. I dont believe a full rack of Malkuth heavies fit either (dont have 6 to check with).ö 5 easy ways to fix that. Either use Cosmos extenders, or named extenders, or shield rechargers or use the 5% less powergrid implant that assuming you need to do any of that with the 25% less PG needed from skills. The 5th way is like you say use an extra PDS its not that bad you still get a great tank. What about advanced weapons upgrades as well?
ôThat's not really true. The setup listed above with the 3 extenders, full lows of SPRS...etc, does not fit with a full rack of t2 launchers. I dont believe a full rack of Malkuth heavies fit either (dont have 6 to check with).ö 5 easy ways to fix that. Either use Cosmos extenders, or named extenders, or shield rechargers or use the 5% less powergrid implant that assuming you need to do any of that with the 25% less PG needed from skills. The 5th way is like you say use an extra PDS its not that bad you still get a great tank. What about advanced weapons upgrades as well?
EDIT: Also Akita T was using 4x Shield Power Relay II which boost PG.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.12.07 08:56:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Akita T on 07/12/2006 08:59:23
Originally by: Pottsey EDIT: Also Akita T was using 4x Shield Power Relay II which boost PG.
Dang, I *always* forget about that bonus when I do my calculations EDIT: whoops, they removed it. Hmmz, does this mean they actually intend allowing us invention ? _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.12.07 10:52:00 -
[84]
Its still on at http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/shipequipment/shield/shieldpowerrelays/1422.asp. I wonder what they are planing?
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.12.07 11:33:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Akita T on 07/12/2006 11:37:27
The web-itemdatabase is still in a pre-Revelations state. EEEK, that's a 10% *PENALITY* to powergrid there on that link, wth ? It used to be 5% bonus !
No idea on the ETA on the updated version.
P.S. Personally, I sort of like it this way, I can use it in conjunction with ingame showinfo to look at what changed _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.12.07 12:54:00 -
[86]
ItÆs a bonus not penalty if you look at PDS and Aux reactor they also got a û symbol. As far as I can recall itÆs always been 10%. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
JenDen
Caldari LFS Corp
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Posted - 2006.12.07 20:30:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Shadarle Anyone who thinks a Cerb is better than a drake is dreaming.
Would disagree with that. Tried tanking my friend's raven torpedoes on a drake - couldn't tank it for too long. And on the other hand I can still defeat his raven with my cerber >_>
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Karrihn
Caldari Quintessential
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Posted - 2006.12.08 14:30:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Natasha Kerensky The REAL question is:
Can the Drake solo lvl4 missions?
Absolutely. The Destruction of your ship is usually preceeded by the thought,"I think I will try somthing a little different this time...." |
Karrihn
Caldari Quintessential
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Posted - 2006.12.08 14:32:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Natasha Kerensky The REAL question is:
Can the Drake solo lvl4 missions?
A passive tanked missile Ferox can solo some level 4s, so...
It can solo all level 4's. The Destruction of your ship is usually preceeded by the thought,"I think I will try somthing a little different this time...." |
Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.12.08 15:34:00 -
[90]
The thing that gets me is how the T2 battlecruisers (command ships) have slightly lower hitpoints than their T1 counterparts, never mind the tier 2s.
That's just plain silly. T1 BCs are now much better choices unless you absolutely need the better resists on T2s.
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