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Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.02 15:26:00 - [31] Originally by: Shin Ra As no record of shares transferred exists, the system is still open to scamming/human error etc. Agreed, but this is also the case with EGSE.
Paco Angel	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:49:00 - [32] I will offer my services to be the CEO of the Real time exchange!!! Just send all the isk and shares to me.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.03 10:25:00 - [33] Originally by: Paco Angel I will offer my services to be the CEO of the Real time exchange!!! Why should I trust you?
Pheusia Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.03 13:29:00 - [34] Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Paco Angel I will offer my services to be the CEO of the Real time exchange!!! Why should I trust you? I think he was being sarcastic. Signed, Pheusia
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.03 15:35:00 - [35] Originally by: Pheusia Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Paco Angel I will offer my services to be the CEO of the Real time exchange!!! Why should I trust you? I think he was being sarcastic. I know. Some people might not know.
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:52:00 - [36] If you want to get this off the ground, and are legitimately looking to set up a business, forward me any and all information regarding what you'd like to do. If it looks good to me, I'll be willing to act as a broker to hold shares and ISK. VETO FOR HIRE
Ezoran DuBlaidd Minmatar	Posted - 2006.12.03 18:31:00 - [37] there's a half percent charge on isk deposited, and a half percent charge on isk taken out of the resx. no charges made for depositing/withdrawing shares. but, i'm also collecting a daily interest on all the isk i have in the resx. have done a number of transactions (half a dozen so far), ranging from 100k to 20m, and have had no problems receiving shares or anything. plus, there's a big buy order for rivers enterprises on there... if anyone is interested in selling.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Verone If you want to get this off the ground, and are legitimately looking to set up a business, forward me any and all information regarding what you'd like to do. All information is available in the PDF file. Older versions are also available. Quote: If it looks good to me, I'll be willing to act as a broker to hold shares and ISK. I'd prefer that the RESX corp wallet holds the shares and money. That way, the assets are not in an individual's wallet, and I can verify the amount present.
Demonarc	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:38:00 - [39] I really like this idea, and assuming it's executed correctly I believe it will work. Most of the comments here suggest that people are happy with the current system, and "if it's not broken don't fix it" comes to mind. All suggestions, from my interpretation, point towards people wanting a 3rd party or Broker, which I believe this business idea is trying to avoid. The way i'm reading this is basically RESX is the exchange and broker rolled into one, so it'd be like Omber running and brokering the EGSE. You technically own the shares in real-time, but delivery may be delayed. This doesn't matter, as you are still the owner, and can even sell them before the shares arrive with yourself, again in real-time. The only concern I really have is the management of the funds - basically keeping track of who has what. I know the web site can probably do the maths and display your current balance, but how will disputes be handled?
Erfnam Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:20:00 - [40] This system is good in concept, but the system can break (no longer realtime) if there is more than 1 broker. Say you have 2 brokers; BrokerA and BrokerB. BrokerA is holding 10 shares of [MyCorp] listed for sale at 1m ISK each. Client1 has 10m ISK being held by BrokerB and would like to purchase all 10 of those shares. Here is the steps listed that would cause it to (hopefully) function as quickly as the EGSE. 1. Client1 submits order for 10 shares. 2. Site notifies both brokers of the pending transaction. 3a. BrokerA waits for BrokerB to send shares since ISK can be traced and shares cannot. EGSE style delay 3b. BrokerB logs in and sends ISK to Broker A. <delay> 3c. BrokerA sends shares to Broker B. 4. At this point, Client1 virtually has 10 shares of [MyCorp] and must wait for another user action to receive these shares. Steps 2-3 are skipped when there is only 1 broker. If both brokers are in different timezones, than you risk each step taking up to ~16 hours. Transactions between multiple brokers can be handled faster if all brokers are a member of the same corp and only the corporate wallet is used to hold shares and ISK. This would result in more risk and more scapegoats/finger pointing if something disappears. If there is only 1 broker, the RESX becomes a void if that broker cannot log in, chooses not to process transactions, or the broker's account is banned for whatever reason. All trust related problems are delayed/hidden until the clients wish to cash out. If that happens, they can still shuffle their shares/isk around virtually, but can never get them back in to their wallet. Time Cube Syndicate is recruiting
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:29:00 - [41] Originally by: Demonarc The only concern I really have is the management of the funds - basically keeping track of who has what. I know the web site can probably do the maths and display your current balance, but how will disputes be handled? Everything which causes money and shares to be moved in, out and between accounts is logged. Log entries related to a trader are viewable on his 'My Orders' page. Deposits and withdrawals of money are logged via the wallet journal. Shares, however, are not. I'm hoping a future EVE update will correct this, but until then, disputes regarding share deposits and withdrawals are unverifiable.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:51:00 - [42] [justify] The unverifiable thing is what will put alot of people off by this. For myself, I'm vastly intrigued with the idea of purchasing, or renting, the software itself. I'd love to be able to run my own personal banking establishment with people investing, or divesting, in me directly. Something where they can deposit funds to me and have a method of asking for withdrawals. Something that allows me to post what liquidity there currently is, so that people can time their withdrawals when there are funds to do so. Hmmm... as I think about the process it sounds more and more complicated. Or at least to me it does. Good luck though. The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:53:00 - [43] Originally by: Erfnam This system is good in concept, but the system can break (no longer realtime) if there is more than 1 broker. (snip) Steps 2-3 are skipped when there is only 1 broker. If both brokers are in different timezones, than you risk each step taking up to ~16 hours. Transactions between multiple brokers can be handled faster if all brokers are a member of the same corp and only the corporate wallet is used to hold shares and ISK. This would result in more risk and more scapegoats/finger pointing if something disappears. All assets are held in the RESX corp wallet. When somebody transfers money or shares to me, I move them to the corp wallet after registering the deposit. Withdrawals are done directly from the corp wallet. Because of this, I have an empty wallet most of the time. This allows me to quickly see if money has been transferred while I was offline, and if somebody transferred shares unannounced. Quote: If there is only 1 broker, the RESX becomes a void if that broker cannot log in, chooses not to process transactions, or the broker's account is banned for whatever reason. All trust related problems are delayed/hidden until the clients wish to cash out. If that happens, they can still shuffle their shares/isk around virtually, but can never get them back in to their wallet. If I'm unable to login, that means the site itself is down. I make regular backups of the database, so in case that happens, I still have access to the account information. Choosing not to process transactions is not going to happen. If for whatever out-of-EVE reason I'm going to be delayed by more than a day, I will put up prominent notices on several areas of the site, the RESX channel, my bio and this topic.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:56:00 - [44] Originally by: Shar Tegral The unverifiable thing is what will put alot of people off by this. EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:10:00 - [45] Originally by: Balogh EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX. How To Repeat Your Own Words The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:22:00 - [46] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Balogh EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX. How To Repeat Your Own Words
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:46:00 - [47] Okay I'll be more specific. Originally by: Balogh EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX. "Same possibility exists with ESGE brokers but it only exists per deal. Not ad infinitum." I'm sorry to say this but you keep equating yourself with ESGE and that is patently untrue. First, you don't have the same level of credibility that any individual broker at ESGE has let alone the entire project. Secondly, ESGE is segmented by the individual brokers. Malfeasance by one broker does not destroy the credibility of the entire ESGE system or people. There is no single person at ESGE who can abscond with the money and shares of everyone involved. Thirdly at ESGE each deal is brokered as a seperate unit each. When the money comes in the shares go out. Your program is to not have the shares go out of the system but to have the endlessly in circulation amongst those using the program. ESGE has a clear beginning to each deal and a clear end. How it ends here is ... more ambigious. Finally, for your virtual out of game real time economy to function you will need a massive amount shares and isk. That is for it even succeed as a trading marketplace. The value of this active pool would far exceed what it would cost to purchase me, at 45M sp, let alone what it would cost to purchase you. Out of game solutions to in game failures often seem like sure fire hits. That is until they hit up against such things as "unverifiable" and "trust". Then it all goes to pieces even with the most reputable people around. And, frankly, you are not disreputable but you have no reputation of any kind other than this attempt here. /shrugs The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:01:00 - [48] Is there a way to make a option site. Where I can sell contracts? Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead . Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:10:00 - [49] Originally by: Harisdrop Is there a way to make a option site. Where I can sell contracts? Can you use this as your logo? The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:52:00 - [50] Originally by: Shar Tegral Okay I'll be more specific. Originally by: Balogh EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX. "Same possibility exists with ESGE brokers but it only exists per deal. Not ad infinitum." I'm sorry to say this but you keep equating yourself with ESGE and that is patently untrue. My intention behind those equations is to highlight certain differences and similarities between EGSE and RESX. Quote: Thirdly at ESGE each deal is brokered as a seperate unit each. When the money comes in the shares go out. Your program is to not have the shares go out of the system but to have the endlessly in circulation amongst those using the program. ESGE has a clear beginning to each deal and a clear end. How it ends here is ... more ambigious. How it ends is not determined by individual transactions, but by you clicking 'Withdraw shares or money'. It can't really get less ambiguous than that. Quote: Finally, for your virtual out of game real time economy to function you will need a massive amount shares and isk. RESX is certainly not virtual! All orders on RESX are backed by traders' deposits. Of course RESX is out-of-game. EGSE is as well. There's currently no in-game stock economy.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:56:00 - [51] Originally by: Harisdrop Is there a way to make a option site. Where I can sell contracts? If you mean option contracts, that's currently not possible.
JP Moregain Gallente EVE Reserve Bank	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:21:00 - [52] Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Shar Tegral The unverifiable thing is what will put alot of people off by this. EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX. You are missing an important nuance here. The scamming risk in doing transactions through the EGSE is spread scross the entire group of brokers. When they are dealing with the market broken up into small bits, the value to them of scamming is relatively small compared to the 'value' of their reputations. e.g. I can put some ISK or shares through Omber Zombie or Erfnam and feel reasonably comfortable that value of any one or two trades that are placed with them are not worth it for them to be running off to Cancun. Once you start to concentrate the value of the tradable securities at a single entity, then the risk dynamics start to change and you need to be REALLY sure that they won't "go EIB" on you. I would not feel very comfortable with concentrating this kind of value ('tempting') at a single entitly unless it was appropriately structured to reduce risks. That won't really be possible until 1) you can trace securities transactions and 2) you can lock down shares with a corporate vote, just like BPO's. When (if...) that finally happens, you will probably see me launch a Trust Bank and Stock Transfer service. The sole purpose of this kind of company is to provide a trusted third party for investors to keep their shares because there are appropriate sa***uards in place to prevent abuse. The bottom line = in RL brokers and/or exchanges never touch your shares, they are all kept at(or more realistically are accounted for in the books of) a third party. Why would people do that in a game where it is that much easier for you to say 'thanks for your stuff'? Best Regards, JP http://www.evereserve.com
Kilda Shepp	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:42:00 - [53] You said all Shares and Isk are held in RESX Wallet... You also said "All Dividends are paid to the share holder" What happens in if you get very large Such as hundreds of people are using your Exchange, how do you work out who gets what? Lets say you have 5 people with FIN shares all selling on RESX. All with Sell orders. P1 has 1000 P2 has 2400 P3 has 1100 P4 has 1000 P5 has 20000 A Dividend is paid. That means every one of these shares gets a Dividend is paid but all the money would come in one big lot for all 25500 shares. And what about Voting? If a vote is cast, you can only cast 1 vote. You can't exactly cast 5 different votes according to how each member wants to vote. And a Marjory rule would be kinda pointless. What if it was between two people, one had 1000 shares and the other had 1100 shares. The guy with 1100 shares votes "no" but the yes vote was only 500 short of passing. The vote would not have passed if the guy with 1000 shares got to vote the other way. See the guy with 1100 shares is actually voting for 2100 shares. If the 1000 shares got to vote it would have reduced the "NO" vote 1000 shares and increase the "Yes" vote 1000. So in a 500 Vote difference it would have passed. Without a HUGE back en support for keeping tract of who gets what dividend I honestly can't see how keeping all the shares and isk in one wallet would every work out.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:55:00 - [54] Originally by: Kilda Shepp You said all Shares and Isk are held in RESX Wallet... You also said "All Dividends are paid to the share holder" What happens in if you get very large Such as hundreds of people are using your Exchange, how do you work out who gets what? (snip) A Dividend is paid. That means every one of these shares gets a Dividend is paid but all the money would come in one big lot for all 25500 shares. The operator section includes a dividend panel. When dividend is paid, I enter the amount of money, the corporation which paid the dividend and the date the dividend was paid. RESX calculates how much money each shareholder should get and credits their accounts. Quote: And what about Voting? If a vote is cast, you can only cast 1 vote. You can't exactly cast 5 different votes according to how each member wants to vote. And a Marjory rule would be kinda pointless. What if it was between two people, one had 1000 shares and the other had 1100 shares. The guy with 1100 shares votes "no" but the yes vote was only 500 short of passing. The vote would not have passed if the guy with 1000 shares got to vote the other way. See the guy with 1100 shares is actually voting for 2100 shares. If the 1000 shares got to vote it would have reduced the "NO" vote 1000 shares and increase the "Yes" vote 1000. So in a 500 Vote difference it would have passed. It's nearly impossible to ask each shareholder via RESX what to vote. If the vote gets issued while I'm asleep, voting time is lost. Similarly, the voting period on RESX must end before the real vote ends. Also, as you say, the shares belonging to the minority will actually vote for the majority. For these reasons, RESX will vote by itself, for what's best for the shareholders. If there is doubt what's best, RESX will simply not vote. Additionally, all votes are logged. For example, look here for the recent AATP vote.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:58:00 - [55] Originally by: JP Moregain The bottom line = in RL brokers and/or exchanges never touch your shares, they are all kept at(or more realistically are accounted for in the books of) a third party. While I completely agree, this would make operating RESX considerably more complex.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated	Posted - 2006.12.05 14:12:00 - [56] Originally by: Balogh money and shares have to be deposited As the tone of many posts here have indicated, Eve's ingame controls might not be ready to this kind of system. Perhaps if you can come up with a way, that makes impossible for single individual to scam multiple billions? It feels you are working on this eagerly and with honest intentions. Now fast forward 12 months: dozens and dozens of billions trade daily, taking many of your precious daily hours. Can you self even be sure, that you won't give in to the temptation: ebay it all and buy yourself a Mercedes, without any real consequences? -Lasse
SencneS Amarr Keepers of the Holy Bagel	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:16:00 - [57] Well, I think Shares in General have a lot of potential in EVE. CCP added the option to have shares in a company but offered no infrastructure to them. Although I would have no problem buying shares from RESX I would be more comfortable selling shares on EGSE. The only reason is what was mentioned above. Majority Rule voting means my vote didn't count.
EMFi Manager EvE Mutual Fund Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:22:00 - [58] EGSEX uses the same method for voting, a broker decides what to vote with the shares he is holding, sometimes on request from shareholders sometimes doens't vote at all.. Yes there are more brokers but more then often 1 broker is handling a lot of shares. AATP for example is all handled by OZ... all 15 orders :)
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.05 18:31:00 - [59] Originally by: Heikki Now fast forward 12 months: dozens and dozens of billions trade daily, taking many of your precious daily hours. The trading itself doesn't take even a second of my time. Only deposits, withdrawals and entering dividends cost me a bit of time. Quote: Can you self even be sure, that you won't give in to the temptation: ebay it all and buy yourself a Mercedes, without any real consequences? Should that ever happen, I hope that by that time, RESX has long been obsoleted by the shiny new in-game stock market.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.05 18:39:00 - [60] Originally by: SencneS Although I would have no problem buying shares from RESX I would be more comfortable selling shares on EGSE. The only reason is what was mentioned above. Majority Rule voting means my vote didn't count. RESX does not consult even the majority for voting. It votes what is deemed best for the shareholders. If in doubt, no vote is cast at all. If you want to vote something which is not best for most shareholders, withdraw all shares when a vote is held. RESX votes as late as possible.

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