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Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.01 17:45:00 - [1] I would like to announce RESX, the Real-time EVE Stock Exchange. RESX is a stock exchange which allows instant trading. This means that orders do not need to be activated by a broker. Trading happens instantly by matching newly created orders against existing buy or sell orders. Because of the nature of RESX, money and shares have to be deposited into an account before trading. When finished, (a part of) the contents of the account can be withdrawn. Dividend received for shares in accounts (and in sell orders) will be distributed appropriately according to the amount of shares at that moment. When a shareholder's vote is held, RESX will use the shares to vote in the shareholders' best interest. All votes performed by RESX will be logged. RESX charges a 0.5% fee on both deposits and withdrawals of money. Transactions and dividend are not charged. RESX is also experimenting with interest. The idea behind this is to prevent money from sitting idle in buy orders. RESX currently provides 1% interest per month, calculated daily. This rate may be lowered or even suspended, if it proves unmaintainable. Please do not use RESX as a bank. Far more effective investments exist. For example, FIN (EFS?) offers a minimum 4% return per month. This character (Balogh) has been created by Labogh specifically for tracking deposits. Money for deposits can be sent at any time, as this is logged by the journal. However, shares aren't logged. Please obtain my approval before transferring shares, so they aren't lost. If I'm offline, please contact Labogh. The location of RESX is http://resx.nfshost.com/. Please view the About page, or read RESX_2006-11-14.pdf.
Labogh Caldari Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.01 17:46:00 - [2] Posting to confirm Balogh is my alt.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.01 17:54:00 - [3] In before Shin Ra! Gonna start the questions here. Originally by: Balogh Because of the nature of RESX, money and shares have to be deposited into an account before trading. Why should we trust you? Originally by: Balogh When a shareholder's vote is held, RESX will use the shares to vote in the shareholders' best interest. All votes performed by RESX will be logged. How do you know what our best interest is? -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.01 18:24:00 - [4] Originally by: Dark Shikari Why should we trust you? By trusting me, the buyer and seller of shares don't have to trust each other. Quote: How do you know what our best interest is? Originally, I stated RESX will not vote. However, it was explained to me that in certain cases, not voting could decrease the shares' value.
Ray McCormack BIG	Posted - 2006.12.01 18:33:00 - [5] Originally by: Balogh By trusting me, the buyer and seller of shares don't have to trust each other. Yes, we understand the principle of a middleman. Which is how the EGSEX works with brokers. The question is why should we trust you, specifically? \| BMBE ISK Loans \| the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus...
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.01 18:46:00 - [6] Originally by: Ray McCormack The question is why should we trust you, specifically? While I've written the RESX code to support multiple operators, I am currently the only one. If you want to use RESX, you have to trust me. RESX does have an Audit page. It lists all assets which RESX has to transfer if everybody decides to withdraw everything. If desired, one may request screenshots of the RESX corp wallet (where the money and shares are stored), or even join the RESX corp with Junior Accountant access.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.01 19:13:00 - [7] Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Ray McCormack The question is why should we trust you, specifically? While I've written the RESX code to support multiple operators, I am currently the only one. If you want to use RESX, you have to trust me. But why should we trust you with tens of billions of ISK? What reputation do you have to justify this? -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.01 20:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Dark Shikari But why should we trust you with tens of billions of ISK? What reputation do you have to justify this? None.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.01 20:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Dark Shikari But why should we trust you with tens of billions of ISK? What reputation do you have to justify this? None. Then this won't work. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.12.01 20:44:00 - [10] Lmaaaaaaaaooooooooooooooooo. This thread is funny.
Vix3n Distribution Solutions Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2006.12.01 20:48:00 - [11] If you dont get the "Dark Shikari Seal of Approval" you're just pretty much SOL. Don't worry though, your efforts weren't completely in vain. I mean, atleast you know how to program a little stock-exchange dealio in php. Cool Signed, "I almost jumped to lightspeed in my pants."
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.12.01 20:54:00 - [12] Edited by: BurnHard on 01/12/2006 21:00:45 But actually, what I don't understand is that Resx has a link to it from EGSEX page (i.e. this page for example). Is it hacked, or an EGSE venture? If it isn't trusted by EGSEX, then why are they advertising it?
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.01 20:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Dark Shikari Then this won't work. I really like RESX to be a success. There are things EGSE just cannot provide, due to the way it's designed. For example, doing just anything on EGSE requires broker action. Hence the Real-time part of RESX; only deposits, withdrawals and dividend distribution require manual action. Everything else is automated. Do you have any suggestions on how to make this work?
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.12.01 21:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Dark Shikari Then this won't work. I really like RESX to be a success. There are things EGSE just cannot provide, due to the way it's designed. For example, doing just anything on EGSE requires broker action. Hence the Real-time part of RESX; only deposits, withdrawals and dividend distribution require manual action. Everything else is automated. Do you have any suggestions on how to make this work? It has to be run by a truster broker. Period.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.01 21:05:00 - [15] Originally by: BurnHard But actually, what I don't understand is that Resx has a link to it from EGSEX page (i.e. this page for example). Is it hacked, or an EGSE venture? If it isn't trusted by EGSEX, then why are they advertising it? A while back, when RESX was still in development, I was contacted by Aaro'ne Erviale about possibly using EGSE data on RESX. I declined this, but instead offered to link to EGSE. He offered to link to RESX when development finished.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.01 21:46:00 - [16] Originally by: BurnHard It has to be run by a truster broker. Period. Right. RESX doesn't need to be run by me.
Kasia Pelarar	Posted - 2006.12.01 22:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Dark Shikari In before Shin Ra! Gonna start the questions here. Originally by: Balogh When a shareholder's vote is held, RESX will use the shares to vote in the shareholders' best interest. All votes performed by RESX will be logged. How do you know what our best interest is? What does EGSE/brokers do with votes?
Kasia Pelarar	Posted - 2006.12.01 22:14:00 - [18] Originally by: BurnHard Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Dark Shikari Then this won't work. I really like RESX to be a success. There are things EGSE just cannot provide, due to the way it's designed. For example, doing just anything on EGSE requires broker action. Hence the Real-time part of RESX; only deposits, withdrawals and dividend distribution require manual action. Everything else is automated. Do you have any suggestions on how to make this work? It has to be run by a truster broker. Period. How do you become a trusted broker? Surely doing things like this builds trust? Were all EGSE brokers immeadiately trusted? If it HAS to be run by someone already trusted, how is anyone else ever supposed to build a similar level of trust?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.12.01 22:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Kasia Pelarar What does EGSE/brokers do with votes? Absolutely nothing. ESGE brokers are middlemen that handle the transfer between parties. The monies and items pass into their hands and back out again. Totally opposite of this proposal. Originally by: Kasia Pelarar How do you become a trusted broker? Surely doing things like this builds trust? Were all EGSE brokers immeadiately trusted? If it HAS to be run by someone already trusted, how is anyone else ever supposed to build a similar level of trust? The initial brokers of ESGE were already well trusted names in the industry. Over time new people come in and have the opportunity to prove themselves. The other thing is that an ESGE broker is not assigned to anyone. People select the broker they feel most comfortable with.... usually someone they already know. I once sought information about becoming one of the brokers however I felt that my reputation and my activities of that time made me undesirable as a broker. Of course I may look at it again... and even with the backing and good word of many I still have people ready to think me a fraud and a crook. This community is a very cynical and jaded one. While the bend of your questions denote how unfair it may be to assume any unknown person is a thief and a liar experience has demonstrated to us all that we are all better off thinking that at the beginning. Of course some of these jerks fail to give proper acknowledgement when their doomcrying turns out to be nothing more than chicken littling. I can not tell you a solution other than to work from the very bottom up. That is the only path open to anyone. The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.01 22:38:00 - [20] Originally by: Shar Tegral ESGE brokers are middlemen that handle the transfer between parties. The monies and items pass into their hands and back out again. Not totally correct. When you create an order on EGSE, you must transfer the shares or money to the broker before he activates the order. Then, when others buy from or sell to the order, they have to transfer the money or shares to the broker before he executes the transaction. In a way, this is similar to RESX with depositing into and withdrawing from accounts.
Aaro'ne Erviale EVE Galactic Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.01 23:06:00 - [21] Originally by: BurnHard Edited by: BurnHard on 01/12/2006 21:00:45 But actually, what I don't understand is that Resx has a link to it from EGSEX page (i.e. this page for example). Is it hacked, or an EGSE venture? If it isn't trusted by EGSEX, then why are they advertising it? I can assure you that this is not a hack. A while ago I had a rather long convo with Labogh on his RESX idea. I was, in the first place, interested in getting his market data to have a more accurate view on market movements. This didn't work out for several reasons. But we then agreed to link to eachothers sites, because I think (and Labogh too, I guess) that people need to know their options. That is why I'm linking to the site, but since I don't have any control over it, I don't want to be held responsible should it fail .. break apart or even worse, prove to be a scam. Hence the message "Real-time EVE Stock Exchange (RESX) is not a part of EvE Galactic Stock Exchange (EGSE). EGSE cannot be held responsible for anything that goes wrong with RESX!". [OT]I still think the idea of a real time stock exchange is appealing, but the trust issues need to be cleared before it can be put into full action. Maybe hire a third, trusted party to become CEO of the corp and handle all the "physical" money and share transfers. Aaro'ne Erviale CEO of EvE Galactic Stock Exchange Quote: As a buyer and seller of shares this is the place i want to be.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.12.02 12:04:00 - [22] Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Shar Tegral ESGE brokers are middlemen that handle the transfer between parties. The monies and items pass into their hands and back out again. Not totally correct. When you create an order on EGSE, you must transfer the shares or money to the broker before he activates the order. Then, when others buy from or sell to the order, they have to transfer the money or shares to the broker before he executes the transaction. You gave a lengthier explanation of the middle man process used at ESGE than I did. That is all. Originally by: Balogh In a way, this is similar to RESX with depositing into and withdrawing from accounts. With ESGE, the key thing that makes RESX galaxies different, is that the withdrawal process is guaranteed and expressly stated to occur promptly at the close of the deal. ESGE brokers do not plan to indefinitely hold both ends of the deal. What you are asking people is to let you hold all of the money they've invested and all of their shares they've bought with that money too. If something should go wrong, or should you prove false, your depositors will be double robbed. Same possibility exists with ESGE brokers but it only exists per deal. Not ad infinitum. The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Kasia Pelarar	Posted - 2006.12.02 13:14:00 - [23] Originally by: Shar Tegral What you are asking people is to let you hold all of the money they've invested and all of their shares they've bought with that money too. If something should go wrong, or should you prove false, your depositors will be double robbed. Same possibility exists with ESGE brokers but it only exists per deal. Not ad infinitum. You can just transfer enough money to buy the shares and then take the shares, or transfer the shares and take the money, just like an EGSE broker. You do not have to keep a balance of shares/money (as I understand it), and RESX would probably prefer you not to so they do not pay interest on Iskies).
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.02 13:22:00 - [24] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Balogh In a way, this is similar to RESX with depositing into and withdrawing from accounts. With ESGE, the key thing that makes RESX galaxies different, is that the withdrawal process is guaranteed and expressly stated to occur promptly at the close of the deal. ESGE brokers do not plan to indefinitely hold both ends of the deal. There is no guarantee a rogue broker will transfer the shares to the buyer and the money to the seller. Promptly is by definition not possible, as no broker is online 24/7. The difference between EGSE and RESX is that on EGSE, you need to wait until the broker is online before he can send the buyer his shares and the seller his money. On RESX, the shares and money are immediately credited to the buyer's and seller's account. Then, the buyer might want to resell the shares, or withdraw them. Likewise, the seller might want to buy (different) shares with the money, or withdraw it. When a trader decides to withdraw anything, RESX' obligation is no different from that from a EGSE broker: to transfer the shares or money as soon as possible.
Hazurr Amarr Angelic Industries	Posted - 2006.12.02 13:29:00 - [25] there is also no guarantee that someone wellknown in eve also get tired one day and taken off __________________________________________________________________ Pessimism is the foundation of survival [URL=http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=butterslq0.png][IMG]http://img238.imagesh
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.12.02 13:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Balogh Promptly is by definition not possible, as no broker is online 24/7. So if I do a transaction with RESX the outcome would be immediately available in game? That's the difference here mate. You are basically offering a unreal time snapshot of out of game trading that is proprietary and solely controlled by one venue. It is not representative of anything in game until after the "clerk" logs in and does transfers. Sounds alot like the equivalent ESGE broker does it not? This is not to say I discredit your idea in the least. In fact I've actually thought of a very ideal application for your project. Perhaps a convo in game maybe? The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Labogh Caldari Angelic Industries	Posted - 2006.12.02 13:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Balogh Promptly is by definition not possible, as no broker is online 24/7. So if I do a transaction with RESX the outcome would be immediately available in game? No, no player-run website can do that. The outcome of the transaction is immediately available on the site. Quote: That's the difference here mate. You are basically offering a unreal time snapshot of out of game trading that is proprietary and solely controlled by one venue. It is not representative of anything in game until after the "clerk" logs in and does transfers. Sounds alot like the equivalent ESGE broker does it not? It's not supposed to be a snapshot of in-game information. The account information on the RESX site displays what's currently in your account, held by RESX. The EGSE comparison referred to the holding of assets, not to snapshots of any kind.
Ray McCormack BIG	Posted - 2006.12.02 13:52:00 - [28] A problem with transferring shares in-game at the moment, is that it doesn't show up as a wallet transaction, they just appear. So you've no idea who they've come from or when you received them. Now this tends not to be a problem for brokers who's average volume is not that high. One of the technical problems I see for you is dealing in large volumes from one wallet. With regards to the control of said wallet, you would find a lot more people willing to adapt to your system if it was in the hands of a trusted third party. You may need to find someone willing to do all the transactions involved, but I'm sure you could work out a sallery from whatever percentage cut it is you're looking to take. \| BMBE ISK Loans \| the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus...
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.02 14:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Ray McCormack A problem with transferring shares in-game at the moment, is that it doesn't show up as a wallet transaction, they just appear. So you've no idea who they've come from or when you received them. Now this tends not to be a problem for brokers who's average volume is not that high. I've thought about this problem as well. My solution is to have people who want to deposit shares, only do that after requesting permission to do so. This prevents multiple people from transferring shares at once, or when I'm offline. Quote: With regards to the control of said wallet, you would find a lot more people willing to adapt to your system if it was in the hands of a trusted third party. You may need to find someone willing to do all the transactions involved, but I'm sure you could work out a sallery from whatever percentage cut it is you're looking to take. This is something I'm looking in to.
Shin Ra BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2006.12.02 14:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Ray McCormack A problem with transferring shares in-game at the moment, is that it doesn't show up as a wallet transaction, they just appear. So you've no idea who they've come from or when you received them. Now this tends not to be a problem for brokers who's average volume is not that high. I've thought about this problem as well. My solution is to have people who want to deposit shares, only do that after requesting permission to do so. This prevents multiple people from transferring shares at once, or when I'm offline. Quote: With regards to the control of said wallet, you would find a lot more people willing to adapt to your system if it was in the hands of a trusted third party. You may need to find someone willing to do all the transactions involved, but I'm sure you could work out a sallery from whatever percentage cut it is you're looking to take. This is something I'm looking in to. As no record of shares transferred exists, the system is still open to scamming/human error etc. Furthermore, you have no reputation. I don't think too many people will trust you with their isk/shares. I don't like the idea, its solving one problem but creating many more. And the trust factor is obviously huge.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.02 15:26:00 - [31] Originally by: Shin Ra As no record of shares transferred exists, the system is still open to scamming/human error etc. Agreed, but this is also the case with EGSE.
Paco Angel	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:49:00 - [32] I will offer my services to be the CEO of the Real time exchange!!! Just send all the isk and shares to me.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.03 10:25:00 - [33] Originally by: Paco Angel I will offer my services to be the CEO of the Real time exchange!!! Why should I trust you?
Pheusia Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.03 13:29:00 - [34] Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Paco Angel I will offer my services to be the CEO of the Real time exchange!!! Why should I trust you? I think he was being sarcastic. Signed, Pheusia
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.03 15:35:00 - [35] Originally by: Pheusia Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Paco Angel I will offer my services to be the CEO of the Real time exchange!!! Why should I trust you? I think he was being sarcastic. I know. Some people might not know.
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:52:00 - [36] If you want to get this off the ground, and are legitimately looking to set up a business, forward me any and all information regarding what you'd like to do. If it looks good to me, I'll be willing to act as a broker to hold shares and ISK. VETO FOR HIRE
Ezoran DuBlaidd Minmatar	Posted - 2006.12.03 18:31:00 - [37] there's a half percent charge on isk deposited, and a half percent charge on isk taken out of the resx. no charges made for depositing/withdrawing shares. but, i'm also collecting a daily interest on all the isk i have in the resx. have done a number of transactions (half a dozen so far), ranging from 100k to 20m, and have had no problems receiving shares or anything. plus, there's a big buy order for rivers enterprises on there... if anyone is interested in selling.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Verone If you want to get this off the ground, and are legitimately looking to set up a business, forward me any and all information regarding what you'd like to do. All information is available in the PDF file. Older versions are also available. Quote: If it looks good to me, I'll be willing to act as a broker to hold shares and ISK. I'd prefer that the RESX corp wallet holds the shares and money. That way, the assets are not in an individual's wallet, and I can verify the amount present.
Demonarc	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:38:00 - [39] I really like this idea, and assuming it's executed correctly I believe it will work. Most of the comments here suggest that people are happy with the current system, and "if it's not broken don't fix it" comes to mind. All suggestions, from my interpretation, point towards people wanting a 3rd party or Broker, which I believe this business idea is trying to avoid. The way i'm reading this is basically RESX is the exchange and broker rolled into one, so it'd be like Omber running and brokering the EGSE. You technically own the shares in real-time, but delivery may be delayed. This doesn't matter, as you are still the owner, and can even sell them before the shares arrive with yourself, again in real-time. The only concern I really have is the management of the funds - basically keeping track of who has what. I know the web site can probably do the maths and display your current balance, but how will disputes be handled?
Erfnam Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:20:00 - [40] This system is good in concept, but the system can break (no longer realtime) if there is more than 1 broker. Say you have 2 brokers; BrokerA and BrokerB. BrokerA is holding 10 shares of [MyCorp] listed for sale at 1m ISK each. Client1 has 10m ISK being held by BrokerB and would like to purchase all 10 of those shares. Here is the steps listed that would cause it to (hopefully) function as quickly as the EGSE. 1. Client1 submits order for 10 shares. 2. Site notifies both brokers of the pending transaction. 3a. BrokerA waits for BrokerB to send shares since ISK can be traced and shares cannot. EGSE style delay 3b. BrokerB logs in and sends ISK to Broker A. <delay> 3c. BrokerA sends shares to Broker B. 4. At this point, Client1 virtually has 10 shares of [MyCorp] and must wait for another user action to receive these shares. Steps 2-3 are skipped when there is only 1 broker. If both brokers are in different timezones, than you risk each step taking up to ~16 hours. Transactions between multiple brokers can be handled faster if all brokers are a member of the same corp and only the corporate wallet is used to hold shares and ISK. This would result in more risk and more scapegoats/finger pointing if something disappears. If there is only 1 broker, the RESX becomes a void if that broker cannot log in, chooses not to process transactions, or the broker's account is banned for whatever reason. All trust related problems are delayed/hidden until the clients wish to cash out. If that happens, they can still shuffle their shares/isk around virtually, but can never get them back in to their wallet. Time Cube Syndicate is recruiting
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:29:00 - [41] Originally by: Demonarc The only concern I really have is the management of the funds - basically keeping track of who has what. I know the web site can probably do the maths and display your current balance, but how will disputes be handled? Everything which causes money and shares to be moved in, out and between accounts is logged. Log entries related to a trader are viewable on his 'My Orders' page. Deposits and withdrawals of money are logged via the wallet journal. Shares, however, are not. I'm hoping a future EVE update will correct this, but until then, disputes regarding share deposits and withdrawals are unverifiable.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:51:00 - [42] [justify] The unverifiable thing is what will put alot of people off by this. For myself, I'm vastly intrigued with the idea of purchasing, or renting, the software itself. I'd love to be able to run my own personal banking establishment with people investing, or divesting, in me directly. Something where they can deposit funds to me and have a method of asking for withdrawals. Something that allows me to post what liquidity there currently is, so that people can time their withdrawals when there are funds to do so. Hmmm... as I think about the process it sounds more and more complicated. Or at least to me it does. Good luck though. The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:53:00 - [43] Originally by: Erfnam This system is good in concept, but the system can break (no longer realtime) if there is more than 1 broker. (snip) Steps 2-3 are skipped when there is only 1 broker. If both brokers are in different timezones, than you risk each step taking up to ~16 hours. Transactions between multiple brokers can be handled faster if all brokers are a member of the same corp and only the corporate wallet is used to hold shares and ISK. This would result in more risk and more scapegoats/finger pointing if something disappears. All assets are held in the RESX corp wallet. When somebody transfers money or shares to me, I move them to the corp wallet after registering the deposit. Withdrawals are done directly from the corp wallet. Because of this, I have an empty wallet most of the time. This allows me to quickly see if money has been transferred while I was offline, and if somebody transferred shares unannounced. Quote: If there is only 1 broker, the RESX becomes a void if that broker cannot log in, chooses not to process transactions, or the broker's account is banned for whatever reason. All trust related problems are delayed/hidden until the clients wish to cash out. If that happens, they can still shuffle their shares/isk around virtually, but can never get them back in to their wallet. If I'm unable to login, that means the site itself is down. I make regular backups of the database, so in case that happens, I still have access to the account information. Choosing not to process transactions is not going to happen. If for whatever out-of-EVE reason I'm going to be delayed by more than a day, I will put up prominent notices on several areas of the site, the RESX channel, my bio and this topic.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:56:00 - [44] Originally by: Shar Tegral The unverifiable thing is what will put alot of people off by this. EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:10:00 - [45] Originally by: Balogh EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX. How To Repeat Your Own Words The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:22:00 - [46] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Balogh EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX. How To Repeat Your Own Words
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:46:00 - [47] Okay I'll be more specific. Originally by: Balogh EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX. "Same possibility exists with ESGE brokers but it only exists per deal. Not ad infinitum." I'm sorry to say this but you keep equating yourself with ESGE and that is patently untrue. First, you don't have the same level of credibility that any individual broker at ESGE has let alone the entire project. Secondly, ESGE is segmented by the individual brokers. Malfeasance by one broker does not destroy the credibility of the entire ESGE system or people. There is no single person at ESGE who can abscond with the money and shares of everyone involved. Thirdly at ESGE each deal is brokered as a seperate unit each. When the money comes in the shares go out. Your program is to not have the shares go out of the system but to have the endlessly in circulation amongst those using the program. ESGE has a clear beginning to each deal and a clear end. How it ends here is ... more ambigious. Finally, for your virtual out of game real time economy to function you will need a massive amount shares and isk. That is for it even succeed as a trading marketplace. The value of this active pool would far exceed what it would cost to purchase me, at 45M sp, let alone what it would cost to purchase you. Out of game solutions to in game failures often seem like sure fire hits. That is until they hit up against such things as "unverifiable" and "trust". Then it all goes to pieces even with the most reputable people around. And, frankly, you are not disreputable but you have no reputation of any kind other than this attempt here. /shrugs The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:01:00 - [48] Is there a way to make a option site. Where I can sell contracts? Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead . Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:10:00 - [49] Originally by: Harisdrop Is there a way to make a option site. Where I can sell contracts? Can you use this as your logo? The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:52:00 - [50] Originally by: Shar Tegral Okay I'll be more specific. Originally by: Balogh EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX. "Same possibility exists with ESGE brokers but it only exists per deal. Not ad infinitum." I'm sorry to say this but you keep equating yourself with ESGE and that is patently untrue. My intention behind those equations is to highlight certain differences and similarities between EGSE and RESX. Quote: Thirdly at ESGE each deal is brokered as a seperate unit each. When the money comes in the shares go out. Your program is to not have the shares go out of the system but to have the endlessly in circulation amongst those using the program. ESGE has a clear beginning to each deal and a clear end. How it ends here is ... more ambigious. How it ends is not determined by individual transactions, but by you clicking 'Withdraw shares or money'. It can't really get less ambiguous than that. Quote: Finally, for your virtual out of game real time economy to function you will need a massive amount shares and isk. RESX is certainly not virtual! All orders on RESX are backed by traders' deposits. Of course RESX is out-of-game. EGSE is as well. There's currently no in-game stock economy.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:56:00 - [51] Originally by: Harisdrop Is there a way to make a option site. Where I can sell contracts? If you mean option contracts, that's currently not possible.
JP Moregain Gallente EVE Reserve Bank	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:21:00 - [52] Originally by: Balogh Originally by: Shar Tegral The unverifiable thing is what will put alot of people off by this. EGSE is also hindered by share transfers being unverifiable, as well as people who trading shares individually, outside EGSE and RESX. You are missing an important nuance here. The scamming risk in doing transactions through the EGSE is spread scross the entire group of brokers. When they are dealing with the market broken up into small bits, the value to them of scamming is relatively small compared to the 'value' of their reputations. e.g. I can put some ISK or shares through Omber Zombie or Erfnam and feel reasonably comfortable that value of any one or two trades that are placed with them are not worth it for them to be running off to Cancun. Once you start to concentrate the value of the tradable securities at a single entity, then the risk dynamics start to change and you need to be REALLY sure that they won't "go EIB" on you. I would not feel very comfortable with concentrating this kind of value ('tempting') at a single entitly unless it was appropriately structured to reduce risks. That won't really be possible until 1) you can trace securities transactions and 2) you can lock down shares with a corporate vote, just like BPO's. When (if...) that finally happens, you will probably see me launch a Trust Bank and Stock Transfer service. The sole purpose of this kind of company is to provide a trusted third party for investors to keep their shares because there are appropriate sa***uards in place to prevent abuse. The bottom line = in RL brokers and/or exchanges never touch your shares, they are all kept at(or more realistically are accounted for in the books of) a third party. Why would people do that in a game where it is that much easier for you to say 'thanks for your stuff'? Best Regards, JP http://www.evereserve.com
Kilda Shepp	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:42:00 - [53] You said all Shares and Isk are held in RESX Wallet... You also said "All Dividends are paid to the share holder" What happens in if you get very large Such as hundreds of people are using your Exchange, how do you work out who gets what? Lets say you have 5 people with FIN shares all selling on RESX. All with Sell orders. P1 has 1000 P2 has 2400 P3 has 1100 P4 has 1000 P5 has 20000 A Dividend is paid. That means every one of these shares gets a Dividend is paid but all the money would come in one big lot for all 25500 shares. And what about Voting? If a vote is cast, you can only cast 1 vote. You can't exactly cast 5 different votes according to how each member wants to vote. And a Marjory rule would be kinda pointless. What if it was between two people, one had 1000 shares and the other had 1100 shares. The guy with 1100 shares votes "no" but the yes vote was only 500 short of passing. The vote would not have passed if the guy with 1000 shares got to vote the other way. See the guy with 1100 shares is actually voting for 2100 shares. If the 1000 shares got to vote it would have reduced the "NO" vote 1000 shares and increase the "Yes" vote 1000. So in a 500 Vote difference it would have passed. Without a HUGE back en support for keeping tract of who gets what dividend I honestly can't see how keeping all the shares and isk in one wallet would every work out.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:55:00 - [54] Originally by: Kilda Shepp You said all Shares and Isk are held in RESX Wallet... You also said "All Dividends are paid to the share holder" What happens in if you get very large Such as hundreds of people are using your Exchange, how do you work out who gets what? (snip) A Dividend is paid. That means every one of these shares gets a Dividend is paid but all the money would come in one big lot for all 25500 shares. The operator section includes a dividend panel. When dividend is paid, I enter the amount of money, the corporation which paid the dividend and the date the dividend was paid. RESX calculates how much money each shareholder should get and credits their accounts. Quote: And what about Voting? If a vote is cast, you can only cast 1 vote. You can't exactly cast 5 different votes according to how each member wants to vote. And a Marjory rule would be kinda pointless. What if it was between two people, one had 1000 shares and the other had 1100 shares. The guy with 1100 shares votes "no" but the yes vote was only 500 short of passing. The vote would not have passed if the guy with 1000 shares got to vote the other way. See the guy with 1100 shares is actually voting for 2100 shares. If the 1000 shares got to vote it would have reduced the "NO" vote 1000 shares and increase the "Yes" vote 1000. So in a 500 Vote difference it would have passed. It's nearly impossible to ask each shareholder via RESX what to vote. If the vote gets issued while I'm asleep, voting time is lost. Similarly, the voting period on RESX must end before the real vote ends. Also, as you say, the shares belonging to the minority will actually vote for the majority. For these reasons, RESX will vote by itself, for what's best for the shareholders. If there is doubt what's best, RESX will simply not vote. Additionally, all votes are logged. For example, look here for the recent AATP vote.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:58:00 - [55] Originally by: JP Moregain The bottom line = in RL brokers and/or exchanges never touch your shares, they are all kept at(or more realistically are accounted for in the books of) a third party. While I completely agree, this would make operating RESX considerably more complex.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated	Posted - 2006.12.05 14:12:00 - [56] Originally by: Balogh money and shares have to be deposited As the tone of many posts here have indicated, Eve's ingame controls might not be ready to this kind of system. Perhaps if you can come up with a way, that makes impossible for single individual to scam multiple billions? It feels you are working on this eagerly and with honest intentions. Now fast forward 12 months: dozens and dozens of billions trade daily, taking many of your precious daily hours. Can you self even be sure, that you won't give in to the temptation: ebay it all and buy yourself a Mercedes, without any real consequences? -Lasse
SencneS Amarr Keepers of the Holy Bagel	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:16:00 - [57] Well, I think Shares in General have a lot of potential in EVE. CCP added the option to have shares in a company but offered no infrastructure to them. Although I would have no problem buying shares from RESX I would be more comfortable selling shares on EGSE. The only reason is what was mentioned above. Majority Rule voting means my vote didn't count.
EMFi Manager EvE Mutual Fund Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:22:00 - [58] EGSEX uses the same method for voting, a broker decides what to vote with the shares he is holding, sometimes on request from shareholders sometimes doens't vote at all.. Yes there are more brokers but more then often 1 broker is handling a lot of shares. AATP for example is all handled by OZ... all 15 orders :)
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.05 18:31:00 - [59] Originally by: Heikki Now fast forward 12 months: dozens and dozens of billions trade daily, taking many of your precious daily hours. The trading itself doesn't take even a second of my time. Only deposits, withdrawals and entering dividends cost me a bit of time. Quote: Can you self even be sure, that you won't give in to the temptation: ebay it all and buy yourself a Mercedes, without any real consequences? Should that ever happen, I hope that by that time, RESX has long been obsoleted by the shiny new in-game stock market.
Balogh Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.05 18:39:00 - [60] Originally by: SencneS Although I would have no problem buying shares from RESX I would be more comfortable selling shares on EGSE. The only reason is what was mentioned above. Majority Rule voting means my vote didn't count. RESX does not consult even the majority for voting. It votes what is deemed best for the shareholders. If in doubt, no vote is cast at all. If you want to vote something which is not best for most shareholders, withdraw all shares when a vote is held. RESX votes as late as possible.
Cerwyn Taraman Minmatar Phoenix Tech Industries	Posted - 2006.12.05 19:28:00 - [61] Just want to confirm that I have used this service to buy several shares now and it worked quite well. There is the inevitable delay on isk deposited and withdrawals, but the trading itself is nice and automated.
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2006.12.06 01:13:00 - [62] Originally by: EMFi Manager EGSEX uses the same method for voting, a broker decides what to vote with the shares he is holding, sometimes on request from shareholders sometimes doens't vote at all.. Yes there are more brokers but more then often 1 broker is handling a lot of shares. AATP for example is all handled by OZ... all 15 orders :) Just to clarify this regarding votes and shares held by me - unless someone specifically asks me to vote for an option for shares that I am brokering, I don't vote at all. If they do ask, the shares owned by that person are moved to an alt, the vote cast, and the shares moved back. Unfortunately it's the only way to do a vote for those shares atm as there is no way to split the way you vote between all the shares you own. Eg. I'm brokering 200k of aatp, someone who owns 9k of those wants to vote - i move them and vote then move them back, otherwise all 200k shares would be voting. The reason I do this is due to a conflict of interest I have with certain corps and brokering shares for them. I own shares in some corps, and am directly involved in others, so to vote with shares that I don't "own" in a way that would be beneficial to myself is unethical as far as I am concerned. ---------------------- [FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style
EFS Manager Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:18:00 - [63] Originally by: Heikki Perhaps if you can come up with a way, that makes impossible for single individual to scam multiple billions? Isn't that what the FIN structure is? Aside from that, 100% in agreement. /EFS Manager

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