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Problem and suggested fix for ECM Ships post-ECM Update (Kali)

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Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:30:00 - [1] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 03/12/2006 19:42:56 Edited by: Taram Caldar on 03/12/2006 19:42:18 Ok here are the current stats on "EWAR Dedicated ships": The ECM strength bonus of the Scorpion and Falcon has been increased to 10% per level, while the Rook's has been increased to 20% per level. This is after nerfing the strength of ECM itself by 50% Thus those bonuses are taking place AFTER the 50% nerf is applied. IE: Strength 8 jammer is now Strength 4 Now lets apply the bonus from the Falcon, Scorpion (and Blackbird should have gotten it also I believe): At level 5 each of those ships gets a +50% boost so our (formely 8 strength) jammer is now at 6 strength On a ROOK: At level 5 it gets to 100% boost so our formerly strength 8 jammer, after boosts are applied is... back at 8 strength. On Dedicated EWAR ships!!!! Note: At 6 strength (which you used to be able to get with a MULTISPEC) it's difficult as all getout to jam anything bigger than a cruiser reliably. At 8 it's not even 'easy' though it's more likely than with 6. Mind you the jammer strength is hypothetical. The ACTUAL jammer strength, for the best jammers I can find, were: 7.2 (Pre-Nerf) Which means that POST NERF the best jammers are under strength 4. So even the "Best Jamming Ship in the Game" is only just barely as good as 'random ship' before the nerf. Sounds to me like overkill. IMO the Scorp, Blackbird and Falcon should have gotten a 20% per level and the Rook should have gotten a 25% per level boost. Thus giving the rook a slight boost "above" Pre-KALI standard ships and the other EWAR specific ships equal footing to a Pre-KALI standard ship. Leaving "standard" ships significantly reduced in Jamming strength. Personally I am planning to drop ECM altogether and start training for damps. I loved EWAR.. I agree it was over powered. But this Nerf went way too far.
Zack Wilde	Posted - 2006.12.03 20:30:00 - [2] I beleive there are rigs that boost the ewar modules aswell.
Dixon Caldari Hells Donkeys	Posted - 2006.12.03 20:34:00 - [3] Originally by: Zack Wilde I beleive there are rigs that boost the ewar modules aswell. And a low slot mod... - - - - - - Originally by: Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
Tanya Kovacs SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.12.03 20:42:00 - [4] Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Zack Wilde I beleive there are rigs that boost the ewar modules aswell. And a low slot mod... Yeah but do the math first and have a look at the number of lowslots of ECM-ships first (not to mention stacking) pls. It isn't so easy to fit one of this mods and get mentionable ECM-strength back. Not to forget the expected prices for rigs. To the OP: ECM on dedicated ships needs definitely a little buff. The change at all is ok, but dedicated ships post-Kali are to weak. ECM-ships basically can't do anything besides jamming and atm they are not good in doing this task. And yes, even by using best racial jammers. -- All my postings reflects just my personal opinion and my lacking knowledge of proper english.
Waxau Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:18:00 - [5] Totally agree with OP here. I totally understood why folks wanted an ECM nerf. Im a-ok with that. I also found Nos domi's a pain in the ass too ^^. But i failed to see what was wrong with ecm ships. And Tux i believe also found it the same. ECM was overpowered on all except the dedicated ECM boats. And i can instantly tell folks are going to be saying 'well you would say that' etc, but the fact of the matter is, that a scorp solo was yes - able to neutralise a targets locking, but it lacked any great damage potential to do anything. The rook? Much the same. And the falcon? No damage at all. Unless those ships have ECM, theyre just flying isk. I personally think that all the ECM boats should still get their previous ECM strengths. They were designed for soley jamming, and as such, have no tanking, and very little/no damage potential. And if i recall, the arguement vs ECM was that people got annoyed with the constant Domi, Mega, Geddon, Raven, Ishtar style of play, where ECM was their daily bread. ECM is a vital form of gameplay. Take it out and a good portion of tactics and customisation that we all know and love in Eve, will be gone.
Belid Hagen The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:42:00 - [6] Edited by: Belid Hagen on 03/12/2006 23:43:08 The ECM nerf was more than needed, every single ship which had a empty mid slot put in an IWIN/IESCAPE button. now ECM modules will more often be used only by the ships they were intended to be used in, and at a strenght where they are not totally overpowered. Now dont go thinking im a ECM hater or anything, im actually skilling to recons as fast as i can, so i can get in on the ECM game. IMO ECM's are still very very strong modules, with the new boosts to ECM ships built in bonuses, combined with low slot boosters AND rigs, they are simply insane. In a recon @ skilllevel 5, with good support skills, with ECM rigs and best low slot enhancers and using T2 racials, you should be able to get upto 70% chance per module to jam a Armageddon and about 50% against a Scorpion. So dont tell me ECM's have become useless
Waxau Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:46:00 - [7] Belid - they havent become useless. But theyre underpowered. ECM was nerfed due to its reason for being too overpowered on non-ecm ships, and became stupidly overpowered. You saw more ECM modules on a dominix, than on a scorpion. Now, ECM boats have the strength of general ships pre-patch. And yes - we can jam well, but theyre fleet ships. Not solo-pwnmobile ships. We lack damage and tank, because we're fleet based. that means jamming more than one ship. We need that strength. And theyre not 'insane' with damage mods etc. With damage mods, we can get them to JUST under the strength of our old pre-patch ecm. But for that we have to sacrifice any form of tank. ECM was fine before the patch when used on a Scorpion/falcon/rook. Now, its overly underpowered.
Belid Hagen The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:53:00 - [8] I dont consider a 40-50% chance PER module to completely incapacitate Battleships as "overly underpowered" Sure, we cant tank, or kill much - but in a gang we're still essential. We are a support class, if people dont like being support and want to wtfpwn everyone, then they should put their skillpoints elsewhere.
Waxau Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2006.12.04 00:08:00 - [9] Originally by: Belid Hagen I dont consider a 40-50% chance PER module to completely incapacitate Battleships as "overly underpowered" Sure, we cant tank, or kill much - but in a gang we're still essential. We are a support class, if people dont like being support and want to wtfpwn everyone, then they should put their skillpoints elsewhere. Its not that i want to be a wtfpwnmachine. Quite simply, i dont. That makes eve boring, predictable and easy. Its like when you use cheats for a game to unlock everything, and always win. No enjoyment, no challenge. No point. What im saying, is that ECM on ECM boats pre-revelations was perfect. ECM boats were feared, but only to the extent of not being able to target it. I could tank scorps in a BC. Yet if they failed in an ECM cycle, id be able to break his tank in that time. Then would have to wait for his next failed cycle, and so on. All im saying is that ECM is now underpowered, as the dedicated ECM ships do not fulfil their roles as they should. Theyre weak, feebly tankable, with little or no damage output, which cost bucket-loads, and for all that, dont do what theyre supposed to do. As i said in a previous reply, i fully understand the fact that ECM was overpowered and that i think its a welcome change. But i still believe that ECM boats should have been unchanged. You said : I dont consider a 40-50% chance PER module to completely incapacitate Battleships as "overly underpowered" Two things: ECM is not able to completely incapacitate opponents. It gives the opponent the ability to have an advantage over the other. Nothing more. There are counters for it. As it is, there is a 'chance' based ability to ECM, which gives you guys luck. If you're lucky you can escape, If you arent, then bad luck - you get jammed again. But it works the other way round aswell. The difference is, is that whilst your ship may cost 100 million isk, and can be jammed 40% of the time, we cannot in our ECM boats take that other 60% of damage. And for 300 million isk a ship, it doesnt make any sense if you get me.
Imhotep Khem Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.04 01:41:00 - [10] ECM is going to alway suck. Nobody in Eve likes chance. Who wants to invest hundreds of millions into a ship just to roll the dice. My time is way too valuable to spend it earning something that can be taken away with a simple dice roll. Especially considering there is no reward for victory except that you keep your ship. You don't get a free ship or anything. I'm better off at the casino... ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.

JabJabVVV Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.04 03:27:00 - [11] This is an issue I've been thinking about a fair bit recently being as it is an issue close to my heart (I sold my scorp and fittings a couple of days before Kali and have no intention of replacing them until something changes). Basically I think that the ECM nerf was fundamentally a good thing for most ships - an ECM mod being the default mod to fill an otherwise empty mid slot with would seem to point to the fact that, as a module, it was over powered. However I do not think that the Caldari ECM ships where overpowered: they were designed to jam ships and that is what they did however on the flip side of the coin they went down easily and had pitiful offensive capacity so it all seemed balanced. However now to get their jam strength up to a reasonable level you have to fit your low slots completely with the new jam strength module (even then it isn't quite as strong for a scorp as it was before Kali, but it's close) this means that in anything other than the smallest of gang battles your ship will melt within a few seconds after it gets primaried and if you don't fit the mods then your ECM strength is extremely poor and your ship pretty useless. What I would do to fix this is: remove the low slot ECM module (read the description of it, you can tell a lot of thought was put into it) then add a variable ECM modifier to all ships whereby each successful jam lowers your jam strength slightly and each miss raises your jam strength slightly (this effectively makes ECM more predictable without removing chance altogether or affecting the overall effectiveness of ECM modules, I like the chance aspect and wouldn't want to see it gone altogether) then increase the bonuses on all the Caldari ECM ships to put them back to more or less where they were before Kali. This would: A) Make Caldari ECM ships useful again. B) Make freak occurances such as 'zomg a rifter with one ECM I jammed me 50 times in a row and destroyed my Megathron!!!111' much less likely (OK I exaggerate but you get the point) C) Reduce forum whining from disgruntled ECM ship pilots and the unfortunate few who have been jammed an unreasonable number of times in a row: therefore making everyone's lives happier. (Incidentally the argument 'you can get rigs to increase jam strength so what are you whining about' is a non starter - you can get rigs to increase just about anything (DPS, tanking, PG, capacitor etc etc) but none of those have been nerfed so why single ECM strength out for special treatment?)
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.04 03:30:00 - [12] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 04/12/2006 03:31:08 Oh man, now you can't jam five battleships with one ship. You can only jam three. Ever thought that a single cruiser being able to put an entire gang out of commission (think 7 12-strength jammers!) wasn't really balanced to begin with? -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Garesh Hardlight Minmatar Antipodean inc. Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2006.12.04 03:32:00 - [13] The calls for a nerf to ECM always sounded a bit like "waa waa waa, my uber-godlike module of infinite - virtually no mana snare doesn't work 100% of the time, and the occasional under-powered, unprepared carebear I pick on gets to run away." As someone who was generally on the defending an area side of PvP I don't get to pick and choose targets on race, so to fit a racial of each is too risky. I used to have a Scorp with 6 (read 6) multispecs on, and I was able to get ECM hits on one or two ships some of the time. I was happy with that, it helped turn the tide in our favour. Anyone who felt that a single multispec was a weapon of omgwtfpwnage obviously hasn't relied on it as a method of survival. Post Kali it will take me a couple of months of training, and a couple of rigs to just get back to where I was before on the Scorp. Armageddon, good cheap damage Domi, versatile versatile versatile, is it a nosadomi, or does it pack sentries, or is it merely going to stick reppers on whatever you target, It can mine okay, it rats and missions etc Typhoon.. ermm, great belt-tank Scorp It only does ECM. It doesn't mine, it doesn't dish out damage (not much anyway). It has the potential for a mega-tank, but I've never really been able to build one. Yeah, I think Caldari prolly got the best Tier 3 battleship because it fills alot of the holes we had before, but Tier 1 battleships are good cheap PvP fun for someone at around the 5 mill sp level. Except the scorp aint much fun anymore. The ECM nerf is like giving the Domi 125m3 drone space, but saying they can get the extra space back with another 6 months training and a couple of rigs. Even the 20%/level ecm strength bonus wouldn't quite restore it's status quo because I'd need Caldari battleships 5 before I had the same strength I used to have at Cal battleship 2. Anyone wanna swap a Scorp for a Drake ?
HIdden Canary	Posted - 2006.12.04 05:43:00 - [14] Quote: In a recon @ skilllevel 5, with good support skills, with ECM rigs and best low slot enhancers and using T2 racials, you should be able to get upto 70% chance per module to jam a Armageddon and about 50% against a Scorpion. So dont tell me ECM's have become useless I have Recon 5 and maxed out jamming skills and take it from me a long time ECM pilot and i will tell you its become useless ! i use FAction jammers and officer jammers on most my rigs ! even on my rook which cant keep a cruiser jammed now !
Mordorg Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.12.04 07:43:00 - [15] Originally by: Waxau Totally agree with OP here. I totally understood why folks wanted an ECM nerf. Im a-ok with that. I also found Nos domi's a pain in the ass too ^^. But i failed to see what was wrong with ecm ships. And Tux i believe also found it the same. ECM was overpowered on all except the dedicated ECM boats. And i can instantly tell folks are going to be saying 'well you would say that' etc, but the fact of the matter is, that a scorp solo was yes - able to neutralise a targets locking, but it lacked any great damage potential to do anything. The rook? Much the same. And the falcon? No damage at all. Unless those ships have ECM, theyre just flying isk. I personally think that all the ECM boats should still get their previous ECM strengths. They were designed for soley jamming, and as such, have no tanking, and very little/no damage potential. And if i recall, the arguement vs ECM was that people got annoyed with the constant Domi, Mega, Geddon, Raven, Ishtar style of play, where ECM was their daily bread. ECM is a vital form of gameplay. Take it out and a good portion of tactics and customisation that we all know and love in Eve, will be gone. Maybe, maybe it was a bit too much. On the other hand, its still better then Matar defensive EW.
Mordorg Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.12.04 08:10:00 - [16] Edited by: Mordorg on 04/12/2006 08:10:16 Originally by: HIdden Canary Quote: In a recon @ skilllevel 5, with good support skills, with ECM rigs and best low slot enhancers and using T2 racials, you should be able to get upto 70% chance per module to jam a Armageddon and about 50% against a Scorpion. So dont tell me ECM's have become useless I have Recon 5 and maxed out jamming skills and take it from me a long time ECM pilot and i will tell you its become useless ! i use FAction jammers and officer jammers on most my rigs ! even on my rook which cant keep a cruiser jammed now ! With maxed skills? T2 on a Rook with maxed skills and a couple signal distortion amps, your at 90%+ facing Matar and Amarr Cruisers. 100% vs the Rupture and Arbie, 2 pretty nice ships.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 08:14:00 - [17] its been fixed, and fixed, and fixed again. seems to be balanced now, but we need a few more weeks to see. N.B. note the OMG ecm needs nerfing (post kali) threads that STILL pop up when people still get jammed. N.B. note the OMG ecm needs boosting threads that pop up when ecm doesnt work as well by the jammer. it seems to be balanced now...lets wait and see. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Lowa Gallente North Star Networks	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:46:00 - [18] I must agree. I fully understand why the nerf was needed and I agree on that too. I hate to see some of my nice solo fittings go but then again now I dont have to be that worried about running into the same from an enemy. But... The nerf was taken a bit too far. It could have been made easier (imho) if you just couldn't fit ECM mods on ships not dedicated to ECM. How does that sound? ECM ships are just that, no firepower, no tank, just defense and gang support. (Ok, the Rook can be ok solo but I wouldn't bet 200-300m ISK on it) Now for a any of the dedicated ECM's ships to be working it needs low slots full of ECM-boosters and then some rigs. That will get you close to pre-patch stats and even then it wasnt a sure thing to Jam ships. Esp after the ECCM-boost (yes yes, I know I saw the wild talks about the ECCM mods). I say bring back the old stats for the true ECM ships and remove the capability for every other ship, its sort of logical and its the only way to be sure. Cheers, Lowa What if the truth was something else?
Morty DuAquin Caldari Quantar Swords	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:11:00 - [19] i am not happy with the overnerf either. anyways i'll keep my flying isk's and look if they overhaul it any soon, well hoping for it. its as eve was all the time, after 3 years of eve i can say that. p.s: still happy not beeing a amarr :P -- Tuxford: They are very powerful and can lockdown multiple opponents but they are very vulnerable. Anyone that has failed a jam in one of these ships knows how fast they go down.
LoKesh Amarr InQuest Ascension Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:50:00 - [20] considers copy-pasting his standard paragraph Nah... OP is correct - the ECM dedicated ships could use a slight boost. It doesn't have to be back to pre-Kali (Revelations, whatever) standards, just enough that we have a low slot or rig slot left over. Otherwise these ships will have 0 variation.

OldPueblo Gallente Defenders of Order	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:23:00 - [21] Edited by: OldPueblo on 04/12/2006 16:26:34 And unless I'm mistaken, the low slot modules have the stacking penalty. I think they went a little too far. With the Scorp's low tank and low dps, that was balanced by jamming being its only savior/usefullness. Most other bs can either kill before being killed or tank a long time in battle. Scorp can do neither. I mean sure you can shield tank like crazy with no jamming, but then you throw your ship bonuses out the window and are just a shield tanking non-ECW ship. Whats the point of that? I'm glad jamming is under control now in general, however a ship with bonuses that aren't effective 100% of the time (chance based) kinda sucks.
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:32:00 - [22] Ive already replied to these threads quite a few times. Both here and on the, now ex, kali development board. I am a dedicated ECM pilot. I dotn use Domis with mutlispecs. Or Ravens. Or whatever. I fly ECM ships. I use mostly racial jammers. My ships dont do anything but jam. In a nutshell: ECM nerf was needed and is good. ECM dedicated ships were overnerfed by it. My favored solution: Remove the ECM "dmg" mod from the game and improve ECM ship bonuses to match RMR ones (or just slightly below). Otherwise... my ECM pilot days are over i fear. Ah well... Always fancied flying soemthing with big guns :) .. and a tank :)
Xander Gael	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:54:00 - [23] prior to Kali I was getting a 9.6 on tech 2 racials now Im getting a 4.mad...As a dedicated Caldari ECM pilot I want my money back. yes Im whining maybe even shedding some tears. I always have Griffin, Blackbird, Falcon, Rook, Scorp fitted and ready to go... repackaged them last night after doing some testing with some corp mates. I think Racial EWAR should have been specialized not nerfed. The Griffin, Blackbird, Falcon, Rook and Scorpion should have bonuses that allow them to be the same as they were PRE-Kali. i.e. same point value (I do disagree with a chance system but thats another thread about 20 pages long). Then do the same for sensor dampners, tracking disruptors, and propulsion jamming. make all the EWARs on par with each other. I personally feel that the other EWAR systems dont require a BS level ship because of how they work but it does put everyone on the same playing field. might also give the other races a reason for having tier 3 BS... Im off to eat cheese now
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:09:00 - [24] Edited by: welsh wizard on 04/12/2006 17:10:37 Originally by: Tanya Kovacs Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Zack Wilde I beleive there are rigs that boost the ewar modules aswell. And a low slot mod... Yeah but do the math first and have a look at the number of lowslots of ECM-ships first (not to mention stacking) pls. It isn't so easy to fit one of this mods and get mentionable ECM-strength back. Not to forget the expected prices for rigs. To the OP: ECM on dedicated ships needs definitely a little buff. The change at all is ok, but dedicated ships post-Kali are to weak. ECM-ships basically can't do anything besides jamming and atm they are not good in doing this task. And yes, even by using best racial jammers. Eh? They've done precisely what they should have done. To get useful numbers from your jamming ship you have to fit it to jam, this is good. The Rook can actually get a higher jam strength than it could in RMR with 2 SDA's and rigs fitted. The only problem atm is the Scorpion. It should be a comparable jamming platform to the Rook because its designed to jam BS. It needs 20% per level of Caldari BS to ECM strength or it needs an extra low slot to take better advantage of the SDA's. It has 1 less slot than the other tier 1 BS anyway (apart from the Domi which isn't exactly underpowered :E ). As it stands though, Caldari are down 1 useful BS. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Shi Mun Caldari Aurora Development Corp	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:33:00 - [25] Well reading the arguments already posted i believe that the scorpion should either have a 15% ecm bonus AND an additional lowslot OR get a 20% bonus like the rook. As someone already said the scorpion is supposed to be able to jam other battleships. As much needed as the nerf was, it was taken just a little too far on the scorpion. --------------------------- HAHA! your jammers suck now! Oh wait whats happening to my scorpion...
Beef Hardslab AlphaHivE	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:40:00 - [26] I fly a Scorp, and tbh I hate the thing. It was so-so before Kali, but now, well, it just sucks IMO. I still fly it in pvp though, on the chance that someone will blow it away and give me my insurance payoff lol. Another thing I have noted about the ECM nerf is that it doesn't seem to apply to rats. Guristas jam my Raven all the time. Not too big a deal, I mean they are just rats, but when a freaking Moa can nearly permajam my Raven and I'll be damn lucky to jam anything in my Scorp, well, it's a bit disconcerting.
Waxau Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:15:00 - [27] K well the general consensus here is Well done ccp with the nerf - it was needed. However OTT with ecm ships. So - Intended fix could possibly be remove ECM damage mods from game, and give ECM ships the previous stats via ship bonuses. That way, ECM cannot be MORE powerful that before Kali/revelations, and other ships are nerfed by it.
Cupdeez Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:25:00 - [28] If you have the skillz and setup the ship right for the race ship your fighting you can jamm him pretty good. A scorp should not win 1v1 vs a megathron, Raven, tempest, and Apoc in any fight unless he is setup with racials.. A scorp should be able to fight a tier 1 BS pretty good. getting jams enough to give them a good chance to win. 50/50 chance that is depending on both players skillz. Sorry the the I-WIN button has been removed... Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Cupdeez If you have the skillz and setup the ship right for the race ship your fighting you can jamm him pretty good. A scorp should not win 1v1 vs a megathron, Raven, tempest, and Apoc in any fight unless he is setup with racials.. A scorp should be able to fight a tier 1 BS pretty good. getting jams enough to give them a good chance to win. 50/50 chance that is depending on both players skillz. Sorry the the I-WIN button has been removed... what are you talking about? a scorp neither could before nor can it now kill any other battleship 1vs1. unless the other bs has a really, really crap setup and a bad pilot. in which case it will also likely go down to a single properly fitted and flown af.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Cupdeez If you have the skillz and setup the ship right for the race ship your fighting you can jamm him pretty good. A scorp should not win 1v1 vs a megathron, Raven, tempest, and Apoc in any fight unless he is setup with racials.. A scorp should be able to fight a tier 1 BS pretty good. getting jams enough to give them a good chance to win. 50/50 chance that is depending on both players skillz. Sorry the the I-WIN button has been removed... No Scorp in regular fit(best named multi) will be dead in PvP against any BC except Ferox and, possibly, Drake. It is tier1 BS, btw. EWAR BS, btw. Best Caldari PvP ship, btw. Great job, CCP, just great job. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>



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